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PhillipsBubba
07-28-2008, 11:48 PM
C'mon Kenny...we're one big trade away from the playoffs...pull the trigger buddy...heck, are Carl Everett or Robbie Alomar available???

Seriously, if we don't make the playoffs this year, this team needs to be dismantled..with a few obvious exceptions..I hope KW makes a bold move...cuz we won't be this close for a few years.

munchman33
07-28-2008, 11:50 PM
C'mon Kenny...we're one big trade away from the playoffs...pull the trigger buddy...heck, are Carl Everett or Robbie Alomar available???

Seriously, if we don't make the playoffs this year, this team needs to be dismantled..with a few obvious exceptions..I hope KW makes a bold move...cuz we won't be this close for a few years.

Dismantled? C'mon man. The team needs a leadoff hitter, probably one more starter and bullpen arm, and a way to dump Konerko's contract. Not exactly an overhaul.

soxfanreggie
07-29-2008, 12:37 AM
When you have guys like MB, Alexei, TCQ, AJ, Dye, Jenks, Swisher, and a host of other pitchers, you have some serious talent. Munchman is right, if we can get a leadoff hitter, preferably one who plays CF, we can move Swisher to first and have PK or Thome at DH.

Nellie_Fox
07-29-2008, 01:20 AM
...and have PK ... at DH.Right now, Konerko's being asked to do two things (play defense and hit,) and he's only doing one of them. So, you suggest taking him out of the one thing he's doing in order to have him do nothing but the one thing he isn't doing?

TDog
07-29-2008, 01:28 AM
When you have guys like MB, Alexei, TCQ, AJ, Dye, Jenks, Swisher, and a host of other pitchers, you have some serious talent. Munchman is right, if we can get a leadoff hitter, preferably one who plays CF, we can move Swisher to first and have PK or Thome at DH.

I would like for the Sox to trade Swisher and Fields and sign or acquire a third baseman -- whether it's a returning Crede or someone else who can play the position. The Sox likely will move in a new second baseman, losing Cabrera and moving Ramirez to short. Pitching is always in a state of flux and has been since the beginning of the year.

But I am more concerned with the Sox winning this year with what they have.

whitesox901
07-29-2008, 01:38 AM
Right now, Konerko's being asked to do two things (play defense and hit,) and he's only doing one of them. So, you suggest taking him out of the one thing he's doing in order to have him do nothing but the one thing he isn't doing?

so true, sad, but true

Chilli Palmer
07-29-2008, 02:34 AM
Right now, Konerko's being asked to do two things (play defense and hit,) and he's only doing one of them. So, you suggest taking him out of the one thing he's doing in order to have him do nothing but the one thing he isn't doing?


Nope, he is actually doing neither well. What logical way is he doing at least one of them well? He should have been traded after we got Swisher. Enjoy the next $24 MM.

Oh and come see Jenn and I at the wing joint, good times to have.:gulp::gulp:

Nellie_Fox
07-29-2008, 02:56 AM
Nope, he is actually doing neither well. What logical way is he doing at least one of them well?Konerko is no gold-glover, but his defense at first always has been more than adequate, and I've seen no change in that. Anyway, my point wasn't to defend keeping him in for his defense, but to question the logic of making a DH out of a guy who isn't hitting. You DH guys who can hit but have defensive problems.

Chilli Palmer
07-29-2008, 03:13 AM
Konerko is no gold-glover, but his defense at first always has been more than adequate, and I've seen no change in that. Anyway, my point wasn't to defend keeping him in for his defense, but to question the logic of making a DH out of a guy who isn't hitting. You DH guys who can hit but have defensive problems.

:scratch:

Nellie_Fox
07-29-2008, 03:26 AM
:scratch:Okay, where did I leave you confused this time?

It's Dankerific
07-29-2008, 05:05 AM
Okay, where did I leave you confused this time?

You're right, making PK a DH makes no sense, maybe a DB, Designated Buddy for BA on the bench...

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:14 AM
I apologize if this shocks anyone, but perhaps KW should ask Houston what they would want for Darin Erstad.

I wasn't in favor of starting him last year over BA (who had outperformed him in Spring Training), and once the season was lost I was furious with Ozzie for continuing to have him play, including batting fifth.

But he's hitting decently this year (.277) and can play both CF and 1B, so that would allow either Swisher or Paulie to be sat for someone who is hitting better.

Plus, at least we know that Ozzie has a history of actually giving him regular playing time.

Here are other CFs on non-contending who might be available (we're not getting Adam Jones of the Orioles or Nate McLouth of the Pirates):

Mark Kotsay/Braves
Willie Taveras or Scott Podsednik/Rockies

I guess I could accept Pods' subpar defense in CF knowing that he's an effective leadoff hitter.

I guess Kotsay would be OK, too.

ms620
07-29-2008, 07:16 AM
I apologize if this shocks anyone, but perhaps KW should ask Houston what they would want for Darin Erstad.

I wasn't in favor of starting him last year over BA (who had outperformed him in Spring Training), and once the season was lost I was furious with Ozzie for continuing to have him play, including batting fifth.

But he's hitting decently this year (.277) and can play both CF and 1B, so that would allow either Swisher or Paulie to be sat for someone who is hitting better.

Plus, at least we know that Ozzie has a history of actually giving him regular playing time.

Here are other CFs on non-contending who might be available (we're not getting Adam Jones of the Orioles or Nate McLouth of the Pirates):

Mark Kotsay/Braves
Jay Bruce/Reds
Willie Taveras or Scott Podsednik/Rockies

I guess I could accept Pods' subpar defense in CF knowing that he's an effective leadoff hitter.

I guess Kotsay would be OK, too.

Darrin Erstad? Wow. That is laughable. It would be 2 games before there are bench Erstad threads.

Jay Bruce? He is absolutely untouchable, regardless of his recent performance. He is also a young player who is struggling. Not sure why we would want him for this season. For the future obviously. But not for this season.

Pods? I know you hate PK, but give me a break.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:19 AM
Darrin Erstad? Wow. That is laughable. It would be 2 games before there are bench Erstad threads.

Jay Bruce? He is absolutely untouchable, regardless of his recent performance. He is also a young player who is struggling. Not sure why we would want him for this season. For the future obviously. But not for this season.

Pods? I know you hate PK, but give me a break.

Paulie sucks, OK? He's had dang near four months to get his head out of his butt. He hasn't been able to do it. He also was quite mediocre last year.

Either Pods or Erstad would be an upgrade over Paulie. Brian Anderson would be an upgrade over Paulie. Dewayne Wise would be an upgrade over Paulie. Each of those players has a higher batting average this year and can run better than Paulie. Those are the facts.

Of course, it would be even better if KW can pry DeJesus from KC.

I_Liked_Manuel
07-29-2008, 07:21 AM
I apologize if this shocks anyone, but perhaps KW should ask Houston what they would want for Darin Erstad.



Well, I've heard it all now.


Baltimore's 10 games out of the wild card - give up whatever's left on the farm for Brian Roberts, move Ramirez to Center, and put Swish at 1st. If Fields has to be part of that package, I can live with Uribe at 3rd for the rest of the season.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2008, 07:24 AM
Frater -- you pretty much blew all credibility when you said Jay Bruce might be available.

This is what drives me crazy about our fans. Maybe they can throw in Volquez.

ms620
07-29-2008, 07:25 AM
Well, I've heard it all now.


Baltimore's 10 games out of the wild card - give up whatever's left on the farm for Brian Roberts, move Ramirez to Center, and put Swish at 1st. If Fields has to be part of that package, I can live with Uribe at 3rd for the rest of the season.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Might improve the defense, while adding a true leadoff hitter. Not sure if we have what it takes to get Roberts, but I would be all for trading Fields for the right deal.

jabrch
07-29-2008, 07:25 AM
Darrin Erstad? Wow. That is laughable. It would be 2 games before there are bench Erstad threads.

I'll take the under.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:27 AM
Frater -- you pretty much blew all credibility when you said Jay Bruce might be available.

This is what drives me crazy about our fans. Maybe they can throw in Volquez.

Sorry. I don't follow the NL. I edited the post.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:28 AM
Well, I've heard it all now.

Baltimore's 10 games out of the wild card - give up whatever's left on the farm for Brian Roberts, move Ramirez to Center, and put Swish at 1st. If Fields has to be part of that package, I can live with Uribe at 3rd for the rest of the season.

Alexei is not a credible defender in CF.

Craig Grebeck
07-29-2008, 07:28 AM
Sorry. I don't follow the NL. I edited the post.
Were you living under a rock when Jay Bruce came up?

Even if you don't follow the NL, it was impossible to not hear about him. I think my grandmother knows he's untouchable.

ms620
07-29-2008, 07:30 AM
Alexei is not a credible defender in CF.

But you just suggested Pods. Alexie might be good. Pods is not.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:32 AM
Were you living under a rock when Jay Bruce came up?

Even if you don't follow the NL, it was impossible to not hear about him. I think my grandmother knows he's untouchable.

So now with the insults. :rolleyes:

I'm studying for Ph.D. exams and have a two-month old baby boy. I spend too much time as it is following the Sox.

I don't have time to follow, and I simply don't care about, the National League. I'm sorry my baseball acumen doesn't measure up to your lofty standards.

:rolleyes:

Malgar 12
07-29-2008, 07:33 AM
So now with the insults. :rolleyes:

I'm studying for Ph.D. exams and have a two-month old baby boy. I spend too much time as it is following the Sox.

I don't have time to follow, and I simply don't care about, the National League. I'm sorry my baseball acumen doesn't measure up to your lofty standards.

:rolleyes:

Good luck with you comps...what field are you studying?

Lillian
07-29-2008, 07:34 AM
OK, let me get this straight. So the Sox have settled for subpar defense in a key defensive position, Centerfield, in order to get exactly whose potent bat in the lineup? Oh, Nick Swisher's big bat. I see.
And we have that "potent" bat in Center because there is no room for Swisher at First. And who is this indispensable bat that is blocking Swisher at First? Oh, yeah Paul Konerko. I get it now.
Jeesh, this is so pathetic.

I've regretted not trading P. K. since the off season, especially after Swisher was acquired. Now I'm starting to really regret having traded for Swisher, as well.
Right now, I would have settled for Eldred at First, and Ryne Sweeney in Center, and whatever pitcher we could have gotten for Konerko.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:35 AM
Good luck with you comps...what field are you studying?

Thanks! I have three fields: History of U.S. relations with Latin America during the Cold War, Latin American Women's History since 1800, and Photojournalism.

I'm trying to convince my wife that my fourth field is White Sox baseball. She's not buying it (although one of my committee members - a Red Sox fan - might).
:redface:

ms620
07-29-2008, 07:36 AM
OK, let me get this straight. So the Sox have settled for subpar defense in a key defensive position, Centerfield, in order to get exactly whose potent bat in the lineup? Oh, Nick Swisher's big bat. I see.
And we have that "potent" bat in Center because there is no room for Swisher at First. And who is this indispensable bat that is blocking Swisher at First? Oh, yeah Paul Konerko. I get it now.
Jeesh, this is so pathetic.

I've regretted not trading P. K. since the off season, especially after Swisher was acquired. Now I'm starting to really regret having traded for Swisher, as well.
Right now, I would have settled for Eldred at First, and Ryne Sweeney in Center, and whatever pitcher we could have gotten for Konerko.

Swisher has struggled. BUt there is no way I want Ryan Sweeney in my starting lineup. And Brad Eldred? Give me a break.

oeo
07-29-2008, 07:37 AM
OK, let me get this straight. So the Sox have settled for subpar defense in a key defensive position, Centerfield, in order to get exactly whose potent bat in the lineup? Oh, Nick Swisher's big bat. I see.
And we have that "potent" bat in Center because there is no room for Swisher at First. And who is this indispensable bat that is blocking Swisher at First? Oh, yeah Paul Konerko. I get it now.
Jeesh, this is so pathetic.

I've regretted not trading P. K. since the off season, especially after Swisher was acquired. Now I'm starting to really regret having traded for Swisher, as well.
Right now, I would have settled for Eldred at First, and Ryne Sweeney in Center, and whatever pitcher we could have gotten for Konerko.

Eldred at first really would have shored up the D. And he would be in AAA by now because he sucks.

Didn't we try throwing ****ty players out there in 2007? That worked out really well.

One loss and everyone starts to lose it. This is just like when we got swept by the Cubs at Wrigley. Kenny sucks, Ozzie sucks, blow it up, it's time to go home. There is another game today, and tomorrow...oh, Thursday, too. Calm down, take some deep breaths. We're going through a tough stretch, but if the heart of this team has been any indication this year, they will bounce back.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:37 AM
OK, let me get this straight. So the Sox have settled for subpar defense in a key defensive position, Centerfield, in order to get exactly whose potent bat in the lineup? Oh, Nick Swisher's big bat. I see.
And we have that "potent" bat in Center because there is no room for Swisher at First. And who is this indispensable bat that is blocking Swisher at First? Oh, yeah Paul Konerko. I get it now.
Jeesh, this is so pathetic.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:39 AM
Ryan Sweeney is hitting .307 with a .358 OBP right now (higher than Swisher's .347). He's also 8/9 in stolen bases.

I think he might have been serviceable as a leadoff hitter.

I_Liked_Manuel
07-29-2008, 07:42 AM
Alexei is not a credible defender in CF.

Where do you get this garbage from? The scouting report is that he can play center, short, and second - and IIRC he was our opening day CF this year. Unless you scouted him in Cuba, you're assertion is baseless.

For the record, we have Nick Swisher out in Center most nights right now - Ramirez won't decrease our CF's range.

oeo
07-29-2008, 07:43 AM
Ryan Sweeney is hitting .307 with a .358 OBP right now (higher than Swisher's .347). He's also 8/9 in stolen bases.

I think he might have been serviceable as a leadoff hitter.

There is absolutely no guarantee he puts up those numbers for us.

Kenny made the right move dealing him because he looked to be at least another year away. We were looking at competing this year. Stop second guessing...I don't remember many people crying about losing Sweeney; it was the other two that people had a problem with.

itsnotrequired
07-29-2008, 07:45 AM
Ryan Sweeney is hitting .307 with a .358 OBP right now (higher than Swisher's .347). He's also 8/9 in stolen bases.

I think he might have been serviceable as a leadoff hitter.

Possibly but where do you play him? He isn't any better in center than Swisher and it can be argued he is even worse. Moving him to the corners isn't practical either as Dye/Quentin can't play center either. Plus, he still has no power.

Lillian
07-29-2008, 07:51 AM
Possibly but where do you play him? He isn't any better in center than Swisher and it can be argued he is even worse. Moving him to the corners isn't practical either as Dye/Quentin can't play center either. Plus, he still has no power.

Ryne Sweeney is a very good outfielder. He is a better defensive Centerfielder than Swisher. His only limitation out there is his speed, but he is still faster than Swisher. He has a better arm, more speed, gets better jumps and reads.

Lillian
07-29-2008, 07:54 AM
There is absolutely no guarantee he puts up those numbers for us.

Kenny made the right move dealing him because he looked to be at least another year away. We were looking at competing this year. Stop second guessing...I don't remember many people crying about losing Sweeney; it was the other two that people had a problem with.

I was very sorry to see him go. I've been very excited about him since I saw him the first time at Spring Training, a few years ago, when he was just 19. His power has not developed yet, but he is still very young.

russ99
07-29-2008, 07:57 AM
Where do you get this garbage from? The scouting report is that he can play center, short, and second - and IIRC he was our opening day CF this year. Unless you scouted him in Cuba, you're assertion is baseless.

For the record, we have Nick Swisher out in Center most nights right now - Ramirez won't decrease our CF's range.

Alexei's decent in CF, but he's much more useful to us at 2B or SS.

As for Swisher, I think his deal will pay off a lot more in year 2-3 of his low contract. Also, I think a lot of his issues this year are due to gutting up and playing out of position in CF. I think he'll do better at the plate after he's moved to LF or 1B when Thome retires and/or Konerko is moved.

I'd love to see Kenny get a real CF who can hit (maybe Freel?) at the deadline so Ozzie can rotate Thome, Konerko and Swisher in and out of the lineup depending on the matchup and how each guy looks at the plate. But looking at the market this year, that's probably wishful thinking.

itsnotrequired
07-29-2008, 07:58 AM
Ryne Sweeney is a very good outfielder. He is a better defensive Centerfielder than Swisher. His only limitation out there is his speed, but he is still faster than Swisher. He has a better arm, more speed, gets better jumps and reads.

Yikes, you are right. Who the hell am I thinking off?

oeo
07-29-2008, 07:59 AM
I was very sorry to see him go. I've been very excited about him since I saw him the first time at Spring Training, a few years ago, when he was just 19. His power has not developed yet, but he is still very young.

No offense, but you can't even get his name right. It's Ryan, not Ryne.

munchman33
07-29-2008, 08:05 AM
There is absolutely no guarantee he puts up those numbers for us.

Kenny made the right move dealing him because he looked to be at least another year away. We were looking at competing this year. Stop second guessing...I don't remember many people crying about losing Sweeney; it was the other two that people had a problem with.

Not to mention acquiring Swisher play center, which he can barely do.

Lillian
07-29-2008, 08:11 AM
There is absolutely no guarantee he puts up those numbers for us.

Kenny made the right move dealing him because he looked to be at least another year away. We were looking at competing this year. Stop second guessing...I don't remember many people crying about losing Sweeney; it was the other two that people had a problem with.

Why should we assume that he wouldn't have put up the same numbers with us. He is hitting .331 with a .388 OBP on the road. Oakland's stadium is a pitcher's park.
He leads the A's in average.

oeo
07-29-2008, 08:17 AM
Why should we assume that he wouldn't have put up the same numbers with us. He is hitting .331 with a .388 OBP on the road. Oakland's stadium is a pitcher's park.
He leads the A's in average.

Because...maybe what he needed was a change of scenery. I personally liked Sweeney, and thought he would hit, but I still didn't think he'd do it this year. He really struggled last year, so something happened between then and now. Whether it was putting on a new uniform, change in his mechanics, etc.

oeo
07-29-2008, 08:18 AM
Not to mention acquiring Swisher play center, which he can barely do.

As can Sweeney. So we'd still have a corner outfielder in CF.

Lillian
07-29-2008, 08:20 AM
Because...maybe what he needed was a change of scenery. I personally liked Sweeney, and thought he would hit, but I still didn't think he'd do it this year. He really struggled last year, so something happened between then and now. Whether it was putting on a new uniform, change in his mechanics, etc.

Or, how about maturity? He was only 22 last season.

munchman33
07-29-2008, 09:02 AM
As can Sweeney. So we'd still have a corner outfielder in CF.

Agreed. Neither was really an answer. And now the guy that plays the position Swisher should be playing seemingly can't play anymore. I really hope this is addressed before next season.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 09:05 AM
Go ahead. Attack me for "I told you so."

If he had been traded last offseason, the Sox could have used the offseason to move Sweeney to first base and not trade for Swisher.

Then perhaps the Sox would have had the resources to make an even bigger offer and thus sign Torii Hunter.

Or, after dealing Paulie and signing Hunter, if during the offseason it's apparent that Sweeney isn't learning first base, you can still make the deal for Swisher and have him play first.

The bottom line is that that real mistake was not trading Paulie when he still had excellent value. I'd always rather trade a guy a year too early than a year too late.

palehozenychicty
07-29-2008, 09:06 AM
Ryan Sweeney is hitting .307 with a .358 OBP right now (higher than Swisher's .347). He's also 8/9 in stolen bases.

I think he might have been serviceable as a leadoff hitter.

I don't know why people here hated on him so much. I always thought that he'd be good in time, and giving him away for Swisher was a little much. We could've used him this year.

MCHSoxFan
07-29-2008, 09:10 AM
Eldred at first really would have shored up the D. And he would be in AAA by now because he sucks.

Didn't we try throwing ****ty players out there in 2007? That worked out really well.

One loss and everyone starts to lose it. This is just like when we got swept by the Cubs at Wrigley. Kenny sucks, Ozzie sucks, blow it up, it's time to go home. There is another game today, and tomorrow...oh, Thursday, too. Calm down, take some deep breaths. We're going through a tough stretch, but if the heart of this team has been any indication this year, they will bounce back.

You said it!

MCHSoxFan
07-29-2008, 09:11 AM
I don't know why people here hated on him so much. I always thought that he'd be good in time, and giving him away for Swisher was a little much. We could've used him this year.

I know people are gonna get mad...but...I like(d) Ryan MORE than BA.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 09:13 AM
I know people are gonna get mad...but...I like(d) Ryan MORE than BA.

I would have been OK if BA was the starting CF and Sweeney was the starting 1B.

dwalteroo
07-29-2008, 09:13 AM
Of course, it would be even better if KW can pry DeJesus from KC.

I'd take DeJesus in a heartbeat. I don't know how that would fit long term, but I'd take still take him in a heartbeat.

Tragg
07-29-2008, 09:14 AM
There is absolutely no guarantee he puts up those numbers for us.

Kenny made the right move dealing him because he looked to be at least another year away. We were looking at competing this year. Stop second guessing...I don't remember many people crying about losing Sweeney; it was the other two that people had a problem with.
Indeed, there is no guarantee that he puts those numbers up in a much more hitter friendly ballpark.
Sweeney is another glaring example of the talent evaluation skills of hitters of the Sox field staff. After his 3 week trial, he was relegated back to AAA in favor of Jerry Owens, whom the field staff saw great promise. Based on that 3 week trial, he was devalued to throw-in status in a trade of the organization's 2 top pitching prospects for an above average hitter(there is no way you give 3 of the 5 top prospects for Nick Swisher - the field staff didn't see Sweeney as a top prospect). Patient hitters need not apply unless you produce immediately. Thankfully, the Sox didn't give away another player they saw as inferior to Jerry Owens - Carlos Quentin. Sweeney is nothing great - he's a younger Podsednik+ and he has some get on base skills. We could use him this year, particularly at the top of the lineup where the Sox are particularly poor.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 09:15 AM
I'd take DeJesus in a heartbeat. I don't know how that would fit long term, but I'd take still take him in a heartbeat.

Me too. My alleged "BA love" is not so strong that I wouldn't accept an upgrade in CF. If you can find a better player, get him. But right now, given who is on the roster, BA is the best option in CF and Swisher at 1B.

ms620
07-29-2008, 09:21 AM
All this talk reminds me of before the 2005 season when Sox fans wanted Lyle Overbay to play first base.

Tragg
07-29-2008, 09:24 AM
All this talk reminds me of before the 2005 season when Sox fans wanted Lyle Overbay to play first base.
Ha! That's a good one. Point made.

Long-term, Swisher is a bad option for first (although he has more power than Overbay). But with Konerko in his funk, Swisher/Anderson (who has had some big hits this year, although they are always demeaned as "pitchers mistakes") seems to be the best option.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 09:35 AM
All this talk reminds me of before the 2005 season when Sox fans wanted Lyle Overbay to play first base.

Let's compare, shall we?

Overbay is hitting .271 with 6 homers and 22 doubles. His worst month this year was June: .236.

Paulie is hitting .213 with 9 homers and 11 doubles. His best month this hear was half of June: .250.

Tell me again how Paulie is a better option RIGHT NOW than Overbay?

Tragg
07-29-2008, 09:41 AM
Tell me again how Paulie is a better option RIGHT NOW than Overbay?
Maybe so, but you better have sluggers at 2nd, 3rd and CF if you're going to give away 1B with an Overbay. Toronto doesn't, and hence, they struggle scoring.

jabrch
07-29-2008, 09:47 AM
Me too. My alleged "BA love" is not so strong that I wouldn't accept an upgrade in CF. If you can find a better player, get him. But right now, given who is on the roster, BA is the best option in CF and Swisher at 1B.

My expectations for Brian are lower than my expectations are for Konerko. Unfortunately neither are living up to those expectations. And unfortunately nobody expects Wise would continue his numbers even if he were allowed to play every day.

Adele_H
07-29-2008, 09:48 AM
. Thankfully, the Sox didn't give away another player they saw as inferior to Jerry Owens -

Carlos Quentin. Sweeney is nothing great - he's a younger Podsednik+ and he has some get on base skills.

If true, that's frightening. I know it sounds bad, but sometimes injuries are a GOOD thing - can you imagine this team without TCQ and Alexei? Mercy! :puking:


..

I don't see Sweeney as another Scotty Prancer - not in baserunning (adv. Pods), not in defense or arm strenght (Sweeney); not in gap-power (Sweeney though he hasn't shown it yet).

They both have slider-speed bats, though.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 09:50 AM
Maybe so, but you better have sluggers at 2nd, 3rd and CF if you're going to give away 1B with an Overbay. Toronto doesn't, and hence, they struggle scoring.

I don't care what we have elsewhere. The comparison was between Overbay and Paulie. And Overbay is preforming better right now, and has for the entire 2008 season, other than 14 days in June when Paulie outhit him .250 to .236. Right now the whole team is carrying Paulie's slumping, sucking rear end.

spiffie
07-29-2008, 09:53 AM
I don't care what we have elsewhere. The comparison was between Overbay and Paulie. And Overbay is preforming better right now, and has for the entire 2008 season, other than 14 days in June when Paulie outhit him .250 to .236. Right now the whole team is carrying Paulie's slumping, sucking rear end.
Have faith in the Captain. His swings are looking good, he's not making a lot of bad k's. He looks like a hitter who is just one good day away from busting out big time.

Seriously, what kind of "fans" are always ready to blow up a team at the first sign of trouble?

ms620
07-29-2008, 09:54 AM
I don't care what we have elsewhere. The comparison was between Overbay and Paulie. And Overbay is preforming better right now, and has for the entire 2008 season, other than 14 days in June when Paulie outhit him .250 to .236. Right now the whole team is carrying Paulie's slumping, sucking rear end.

With all due respect, I feel like you just fail to grasp many concepts discussed on this board. The point is this: I am not saying Konerko is better than Overbay RIGHT NOW. I am saying that it would have been a mistake to have him at first instead of Konerko at the time of the debate...which was prior to the 2005 season. I feel there are many similarities with people suggesting sub par players, or players that have not proved 1 thing in the majors. I am sorry, but am not letting BA or Wise make or break my season for me. I am just not doing it. BA had his chance in 2006...and he failed miserably. Obviously Guillen and KW do not have that much confidence in him. So sweeney is playing pretty well. Big deal. He is nothing special, and there are plenty of Sweeney's around. Like I said, you either ride out Konerko if you think he still has it, or you make a move. Enough with talking about Pods, Erstad, Sweeney. Seriously, give me a break already. Enough is enough.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2008, 10:02 AM
Not to mention acquiring Swisher play center, which he can barely do.

Again, why is it so hard for people to understand that Swisher was aquired to be our left fielder and to be a back up first baseman. Quintin was expected to start the year injured, in AAA, or as the FIFTH outfielder. Owens was going to be our CF this year until he got hurt.

It was never the plan for Swisher to play CF everyday. Owens got hurt. Our next opition, Alexei, looked horrible hitting at the beginning of the year and just mediocre in CF, and Brian Anderson still couldn't hit. The fact that they wanted to play a guy that they just traded 3 prospects for and paid 20 mil bucks (seems pretty reasonable to want to play such a guy) and that LF was occupied by a suprising MVP candidate, moved Swisher over the CF.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2008, 10:05 AM
Go ahead. Attack me for "I told you so."

If he had been traded last offseason, the Sox could have used the offseason to move Sweeney to first base and not trade for Swisher.

Then perhaps the Sox would have had the resources to make an even bigger offer and thus sign Torii Hunter.

Or, after dealing Paulie and signing Hunter, if during the offseason it's apparent that Sweeney isn't learning first base, you can still make the deal for Swisher and have him play first.

The bottom line is that that real mistake was not trading Paulie when he still had excellent value. I'd always rather trade a guy a year too early than a year too late.

I respectfully disagree that the Sox would have gone into the year with Sweeney as their starting first baseman.

And I may be in the minority, but I think the Angels will be regreting that Torii Hunter contract 2 or 3 years from now. I frankly did not think he was worth what we offered him, let alone more.

ms620
07-29-2008, 10:10 AM
And if people want semi-realistic options that Kenny might be able to trade for:

Center Fielders:

Randy Winn (has been playing right, but has played CF plenty in the past)
-not a great hitter. But he has decent speed. Can steal some bases.

Will Taveras
-I do not think he hits well enough. But he can steal bases.

Second Basemen (moving Alexei to CF)

Brian Roberts
-not sure how realistic this is, but he could be had for the right price. Not sure if the Sox can offer enough

Mark Grudzielanek
-again, not sure if he can be had. But would be a nice addition.

Mark Ellis
-not having a good season, but could be had

munchman33
07-29-2008, 10:13 AM
Again, why is it so hard for people to understand that Swisher was aquired to be our left fielder and to be a back up first baseman. Quintin was expected to start the year injured, in AAA, or as the FIFTH outfielder. Owens was going to be our CF this year until he got hurt.


Quentin was never going to start the year in AAA. And if he was held for injury, it would have been 15 days to start the year. Look back to my posts. I was livid because I thought Quentin should be playing, and that he'd be better. I was mad we essentially traded all our young trade pieces for a position we already had filled.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 10:22 AM
And if people want semi-realistic options that Kenny might be able to trade for:

Center Fielders:

Randy Winn (has been playing right, but has played CF plenty in the past)
-not a great hitter. But he has decent speed. Can steal some bases.

Will Taveras
-I do not think he hits well enough. But he can steal bases.

Second Basemen (moving Alexei to CF)

Brian Roberts
-not sure how realistic this is, but he could be had for the right price. Not sure if the Sox can offer enough

Mark Grudzielanek
-again, not sure if he can be had. But would be a nice addition.

Mark Ellis
-not having a good season, but could be had

I don't like moving Alexei to CF. He didn't field well out there (admittedly in limited time at the beginning of his first year in the U.S.). If Alexei could be moved to SS and Cabrera dealt for prospects that could be used to get Roberts, I'd be OK with Roberts, though.

I do like Randy Winn. Switch hitter. Good glove would help the pitchers (who need all the help they can get from the defense). Hitting a respectable .276 this year (career .285). His .341 OBP is in llne with his career OBP and is about league average. Twenty steals so far this year. Get him and bat him eighth or ninth. Now all of a sudden you've got some speed in the lineup with Ramirez, Winn and Cabrera.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2008, 10:36 AM
Quentin was never going to start the year in AAA. And if he was held for injury, it would have been 15 days to start the year. Look back to my posts. I was livid because I thought Quentin should be playing, and that he'd be better. I was mad we essentially traded all our young trade pieces for a position we already had filled.

The final roster spot, before Owens got hurt, was between Quentin and Anderson. Anderson had a vastly superior Spring. Add to this that Quentin was hurt prety much all spring and it was a very strong possibility that he was not going to start the year with the big league club.

And I don't doubt that some people on here thought TCQ would be the solution in LF, but the bottem line is that KW was not willing to put his eggs in one basket with Quentin in LF in case he was slow to develop or return from injury. That is why Swisher was brought in. If they knew TCQ would be close to what he is this year, there is no way that they would have brought him in. Unfortunately they did not have your foresight. That should be what people are complaining about if anything. To complain that Swisher shouldn't have been brought in to be a center fielder is not a valid arguement, because we was not brought in to be a center fielder but rather ended up there after a series of events took place.

TDog
07-29-2008, 10:45 AM
Alexei is not a credible defender in CF.

White Sox management believes Alexei Ramirez is a better defender in centerfielder than he is at second base, that shortstop is his best position and second is his third best position.

I am guessing Ramirez might be the second best third baseman in the organization behind Joe Crede, if he were to play third base. His future, however, is clearly at shortstop.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 10:47 AM
White Sox management believes Alexei Ramirez is a better defender in centerfielder than he is at second base, that shortstop is his best position and second is his third best position.

I am guessing Ramirez might be the second best third baseman in the organization behind Joe Crede, if he were to play third base. His future, however, is clearly at shortstop.

I'm not sure who is meant by "White Sox management," but I don't trust them to evaluate CF defense if these are the same people wiling to:

1. Play Mackowiak in CF
2. Anoint Owens as the starting CF

spiffie
07-29-2008, 10:49 AM
I'm not sure who is meant by "White Sox management," but I don't trust them to evaluate CF defense if these are the same people wiling to:

1. Play Mackowiak in CF
2. Anoint Owens as the starting CF
I assume you have sent in your resume for a managerial or GM position, considering you apparently can make judgments better than the team that won a World Series?

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 10:54 AM
I assume you have sent in your resume for a managerial or GM position, considering you apparently can make judgments better than the team that won a World Series?

I trust Daver's analysis that Mackowiak and Owens are not good CFs, especially when my own limited observation of both of them in CF confirms what Daver has said.

spiffie
07-29-2008, 10:58 AM
I trust Daver's analysis that Mackowiak and Owens are not good CFs, especially when my own limited observation of both of them in CF confirms what Daver has said.
I don't believe that the team would argue with you. In both cases they were decisions made that decided there were other priorities that overrode the fact that neither player was skillful at CF defense. In 2006 they decided that the ridiculous gap in splits between Anderson and Mack justified him being out there. In 2007 the Sox decided to give Owens a shot at CF to see if there was any way to get his game-changing speed in the lineup.

I don't believe anyone ever said, except during a season when it would be terrible form to throw a player under the bus and call him a ****ty defensive player, that Mackowiak was a good CF.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 11:02 AM
I don't believe that the team would argue with you. In both cases they were decisions made that decided there were other priorities that overrode the fact that neither player was skillful at CF defense. In 2006 they decided that the ridiculous gap in splits between Anderson and Mack justified him being out there. In 2007 the Sox decided to give Owens a shot at CF to see if there was any way to get his game-changing speed in the lineup.

I don't believe anyone ever said, except during a season when it would be terrible form to throw a player under the bus and call him a ****ty defensive player, that Mackowiak was a good CF.

In my opinion, the Sox - especially Ozzie - undervalue the importance of defense in center field. I think they view it as an offense-first position. I think CF is a defense-first position.

Obviously you can't have a guy hit .100 just for his defense, but on a sliding scale, I think CF defense is more important than what the the Sox or most posters think.

Put another way, I would have been fine using BA in CF for all of 2006, even if he only hit .225 for the year, which he did.

TDog
07-29-2008, 11:07 AM
I'm not sure who is meant by "White Sox management," but I don't trust them to evaluate CF defense if these are the same people wiling to:

1. Play Mackowiak in CF
2. Anoint Owens as the starting CF

Management includes the field coaching staff and he front office, who never believed Mackowiak was great defensively in center, but played him there for his offense. Had management anointed Owens, as they did Anderson during the offseason after 2005, they wouldn't have been in pursuit of every available free agent centerfielder during the recent offseason.

Ramirez is most probably a better centerfielder than Wise, but Ramirez is a heck of a lot better at second than Wise. Put Uribe at second and you have less speed than if you put Wise in center. It also seems that with the Sox looking at Ramirez at short, they prefer to have him concentrate on middle-infield work.

If you cloned Ramirez and played him at every position, I'm guessing you would get clear defensive upgrades over last night's lineup at every position but first, right and catcher. But that is a pure hypothetical as the technology doesn't exist and would probably be against baseball rules if it did and were legal, and Ramirez only plays second, short and center.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 11:18 AM
Management includes the field coaching staff and he front office, who never believed Mackowiak was great defensively in center, but played him there for his offense. Had management anointed Owens, as they did Anderson during the offseason after 2005, they wouldn't have been in pursuit of every available free agent centerfielder during the recent offseason.

Ramirez is most probably a better centerfielder than Wise, but Ramirez is a heck of a lot better at second than Wise. Put Uribe at second and you have less speed than if you put Wise in center. It also seems that with the Sox looking at Ramirez at short, they prefer to have him concentrate on middle-infield work.

If you cloned Ramirez and played him at every position, I'm guessing you would get clear defensive upgrades over last night's lineup at every position but first, right and catcher. But that is a pure hypothetical as the technology doesn't exist and would probably be against baseball rules if it did and were legal, and Ramirez only plays second, short and center.

The Sox had to know Mackowiak wasn't that good in CF. But if Ozzie's words and actions are to be believed, though, it was his plan from the beginning of the 2006 season to have Mackowiak get regular starts for favorable matchups in CF. BA had two hits opening night, and Mackowiak got the CF start in the second game. BA wasn't benched because he sucked after game 1; Mackowiak started in CF in game 2 because that's what Ozzie's plan was from the very beginning. And Ozzie even said so. Ozzie had no idea if BA would hit .190 or .290. All he knew was that he wanted to get Mackowiak in CF for matchups that were favorable to Mackowiak. And Mack did fine at the plate. He just sucked in the field. But Ozzie didn't care. From the very beginning Ozzie was willing to accept terrible CF defense in exchange for better hitting, before he knew how BA would hit. That's how I know that Ozzie undervalues and/or does not know how to judge CF defense.

the1tab
07-29-2008, 11:30 AM
I wouldn't mind a scenario where Kenny got in the middle of a three-team trade that looks like the following:

Paul Konerko & Josh Fields to ATL
Mark Teixiera & Will Ohman to LAA
Chone Figgins, an LAA prospect (SP?) & Mark Kotsay to SOX

This would give us a legit Gold Glove caliber, cannon-bearing CF who can hit and a potential replacement at 3B for Crede who can also leadoff. There have been a LOT of posts on here over the last couple years from people w/ a chub for Chone, and while I haven't been huge on him, this deal makes good sense for us.

ATL needs a 3B because Chipper's hurt & if Teixiera goes, they need a 1B.

LAA apparently is enticed by Teixiera (according to Jayson Stark) & Ohman is a nice lefty in the bullpen a lot of teams apprently like (according to ESPN.com's Rumor Mill).

Thoughts?

thedudeabides
07-29-2008, 11:38 AM
The Sox had to know Mackowiak wasn't that good in CF. But if Ozzie's words and actions are to be believed, though, it was his plan from the beginning of the 2006 season to have Mackowiak get regular starts for favorable matchups in CF. BA had two hits opening night, and Mackowiak got the CF start in the second game. BA wasn't benched because he sucked after game 1; Mackowiak started in CF in game 2 because that's what Ozzie's plan was from the very beginning. And Ozzie even said so. Ozzie had no idea if BA would hit .190 or .290. All he knew was that he wanted to get Mackowiak in CF for matchups that were favorable to Mackowiak. And Mack did fine at the plate. He just sucked in the field. But Ozzie didn't care. From the very beginning Ozzie was willing to accept terrible CF defense in exchange for better hitting, before he knew how BA would hit. That's how I know that Ozzie undervalues and/or does not know how to judge CF defense.

Frater, I like your posts in general and you always have interesting stances on the Sox, but I feel like your using this thread to rehash all of the Sox past decisions.

You have twice suggested keeping Sweeney and playing him at first? I don't think he has ever played first in his career, and he has good corner outfield skills. The problem management saw was a lack of power or exceptional basestealing skills to justify him as a corner outfielder, at this point. Both concerns would apply to 1b, a position he doesn't even play.

If you want to use Daver as a source for CF evaluation, he has never had a problem with Swisher's defense in center. In fact, I've asked him directly in a thread. If I have the time, I'll find it.

The Lyle Overbay discussion was over 3 years ago, nobody is suggesting him now.

And finally, can we get through a thread without a BA and mackowiak discussion. It is over.

TDog
07-29-2008, 11:57 AM
.... From the very beginning Ozzie was willing to accept terrible CF defense in exchange for better hitting, before he knew how BA would hit. That's how I know that Ozzie undervalues and/or does not know how to judge CF defense.

No one ever believed Mackowiak was the equal of Anderson defensively in center. Swisher played more innings in centerfield than anyone else on the A's last year. His defense was no secret when the Sox acquired him as a centerfield option for 2008. No one believes Swisher is Anderson's defensive equal in center this year. If I were managing, I would play Anderson and sit Swisher, but the White Sox don't pay me to manage the team, and I'm only watching it from a distance. I'm not going to suggest Gullen doesn't know how to judge centerfielders because he plays Swisher in center or that Kenny Williams can't judge centerfielders because he traded for Swisher.

russ99
07-29-2008, 12:10 PM
I wouldn't mind a scenario where Kenny got in the middle of a three-team trade that looks like the following:

Paul Konerko & Josh Fields to ATL
Mark Teixiera & Will Ohman to LAA
Chone Figgins, an LAA prospect (SP?) & Mark Kotsay to SOX

This would give us a legit Gold Glove caliber, cannon-bearing CF who can hit and a potential replacement at 3B for Crede who can also leadoff. There have been a LOT of posts on here over the last couple years from people w/ a chub for Chone, and while I haven't been huge on him, this deal makes good sense for us.

ATL needs a 3B because Chipper's hurt & if Teixiera goes, they need a 1B.

LAA apparently is enticed by Teixiera (according to Jayson Stark) & Ohman is a nice lefty in the bullpen a lot of teams apprently like (according to ESPN.com's Rumor Mill).

Thoughts?

Interesting idea, but I really doubt Atlanta would want Paul and his big contract in return for Teixiera - they'd want top prospects. So if you give them Poreda and Egbert instead of Paul it might fly.

Also, depending on who Kenny would give up, we probably get Kotchman instead, as the Angels have repeatedly said they don't want to trade Figgins.

Besides, I don't see Konerko going to the NL, he's going to end up as a DH before too long anyway.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 12:23 PM
Friends, I don't have a problem with Swisher's defense in CF. I think BA is better with the glove, but I don't have a problem with Swisher's CF glove. I think he's much better than Mackowiak.

As for re-hashing old stuff: I apologize. I've re-hashed old arguments in reaction to the stream of posts that defend Paulie based on his past performance. Take the Lyle Overbay thing for instance. Someone seemingly tried to denigrate the credibility of other posters by saying they were foolish to have wanted Overbay instead of PK before the 2005 season. That has no relevance to what's happening with the 2008 Sox. So I compared their current stats.

I'd too would like to keep the discussion specifically to the current situation.

I'll refrain from bringing up past arguments about him and humbly ask that others do the same.

I don't care what players have done in the distant past, i.e. pre-2008. I care about what they are doing right now, and what they can do for the Sox from here on out.

ms620
07-29-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't care what players have done in the distant past, i.e. pre-2008. I care about what they are doing right now, and what they can do for the Sox from here on out.

I agree with some of what you are saying, but the thing you are missing, is performance pre-2008 is one of the primary ways you can evaluate the potential performance of players for the remainder of this season.

kitekrazy
07-29-2008, 12:33 PM
Interesting idea, but I really doubt Atlanta would want Paul and his big contract in return for Teixiera - they'd want top prospects. So if you give them Poreda and Egbert instead of Paul it might fly.

Also, depending on who Kenny would give up, we probably get Kotchman instead, as the Angels have repeatedly said they don't want to trade Figgins.

Besides, I don't see Konerko going to the NL, he's going to end up as a DH before too long anyway.

Funny how some people think GMs see players differently than fans.
PK is not a "one man's trash, another man's treasure." He sucks and gets a lot $$$. He's not tradeable right now and he probably wasn't in the offseason.
I don't think there's a deal to be made out there that puts the Sox in the World Series. At some point trading tomorrow for today is going to catch up if it hasn't already but the Sox don't have the spending habits of Steinbrenner.
A major acquisition at the trade deadline (Freddy Garcia) never seems to put this team over the hump.

Tragg
07-29-2008, 12:38 PM
Chone Figgins, an LAA prospect (SP?) & Mark Kotsay to SOX

This would give us a legit Gold Glove caliber, cannon-bearing CF who can hit and a potential replacement at 3B for Crede who can also leadoff.
We have a gold-glove caliber CF. Kotsay can't hit worth a flip either.
wouldn't figgins be a rent?

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 12:40 PM
Funny how some people think GMs see players differently than fans.
PK is not a "one man's trash, another man's treasure." He sucks and gets a lot $$$. He's not tradeable right now and he probably wasn't in the offseason.
I don't think there's a deal to be made out there that puts the Sox in the World Series. At some point trading tomorrow for today is going to catch up if it hasn't already but the Sox don't have the spending habits of Steinbrenner.
A major acquisition at the trade deadline (Freddy Garcia) never seems to put this team over the hump.

IIRC, when KW made the Garcia deal in June 2004, he was still hopeful that Maggs and Frank would return later that season. If so, the Sox might have won the division. The Garcia deal surely was a big part of the 2005 success, though.

This offseason, I think the Sox should consider dealing Paulie to a West Coast team (obviously Paulie would have to approve) for pitching. I know his value will be at an all-time low, but it's time to move on.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 12:44 PM
I agree with some of what you are saying, but the thing you are missing, is performance pre-2008 is one of the primary ways you can evaluate the potential performance of players for the remainder of this season.

Yes, sometimes past performance can help you make a reasonable prediction of what you might expect in the future.

But OTOH, that data is pretty clear, based on the last 1.5+ seasons (all of 2007 and the first four months of 2008), that Paulie had his statistical "peak" from 2004-2006, at the exact ages where one would expect a non-PED player to peak. I don't think anyone would have predicted that he would decline this far, this fast, but whatever the cause, here we are.
:(:

kitekrazy
07-29-2008, 03:17 PM
I
This offseason, I think the Sox should consider dealing Paulie to a West Coast team (obviously Paulie would have to approve) for pitching. I know his value will be at an all-time low, but it's time to move on.

They are stuck with him. Chances are very good he will be better in 2009 unless he's been attending the Joe Borchard school of hitting.

hellview
07-29-2008, 03:24 PM
This offseason, I think the Sox should consider dealing Paulie to a West Coast team (obviously Paulie would have to approve) for pitching. I know his value will be at an all-time low, but it's time to move on.

What West Coast team needs a pricey ageing firstbase men.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 03:31 PM
What West Coast team needs a pricey ageing firstbase men.

I wonder if the Giants would consider him? I wonder if he's accept a trade there?

I_Liked_Manuel
07-29-2008, 03:33 PM
I don't like moving Alexei to CF. He didn't field well out there (admittedly in limited time at the beginning of his first year in the U.S.).

again, where does this come from? he's played less than a dozen games at center this year - you're just throwing out baseless assertions

kitekrazy
07-29-2008, 03:33 PM
What West Coast team needs a pricey ageing firstbase men.

Most GMs probably assume the Sox are the best dumping ground for guys like that. There is no shortage of 1B/DH on this team.

russ99
07-29-2008, 03:34 PM
I wonder if the Giants would consider him? I wonder if he's accept a trade there?

This isn't the time to deal Paul, when his value is rock-bottom. Depending on Thome's status, I'd even doubt that he'd be dealt in the offseason...

Next year's deadline may be a possibility, though.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 03:35 PM
This isn't the time to deal Paul, when his value is rock-bottom. Depending on Thome's status, I'd even doubt that he'd be dealt in the offseason...

Next year's deadline may be a possibility, though.

Oh, I know his value is at an all-time low. But if he could be dealt for a Randy Winn, it would free up some cash to make improvements elsewhere, like the bullpen.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-29-2008, 03:35 PM
They are stuck with him. Chances are very good he will be better in 2009 unless he's been attending the Joe Borchard school of hitting.

He's already attending the Walker school of hitting. And it is highly likely he will be at attending the same school in 2009.

TDog
07-29-2008, 03:54 PM
I wonder if the Giants would consider him? I wonder if he's accept a trade there?

I wonder if the Giants would trade Tim Lincecum for Paul Konerko?

The Giants are in the process of dealing their veterans so the kids can play. They won't trade Molina, but they are divesting themselves of high-priced veteran talent left over from he team centered around Bonds. They are working on dealing veterans for prosepcts because they don't have a great minor league system. They do have a budding hitting star the fans want to see called up, but he will play in the Olympics first.

The Giants would not be interested in Konerko, who only would take time away from Bowker.

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2008, 03:56 PM
I think the odds of us getting anything close to good for Konerko are between slim and none. His value is at an all-time low, he's owed a ton of money, and he plays a position where guys that can hit 30 home runs and drive in 100 RBI are a dime a dozen (and right now Konerko isn't even close to that production).

UofCSoxFan
07-29-2008, 03:58 PM
He's already attending the Walker school of hitting. And it is highly likely he will be at attending the same school in 2009.

Funny. TCQ, Dye, AJ and Alexei all seem to be attending the same school.

the1tab
07-29-2008, 03:58 PM
So let me get this straight. From the the last few pages of posts I've pretty well come to the following conclusions:

1) Paul Konerko is worthless on the trade market right now because he sux
2) Paul Konerko is worth more on the White Sox in Sept than he is in a trade
3) We are comfortable with Brian Anderson and Nick Swisher playing CF for the next 1/3 of the season
4) Jim Thome could go away and not many people would lose sleep
5) Alexei Ramirez is our most versatile player
6) Juan Uribe is aweful

I guess my biggest issue with the way the current White Sox lineup is put together is that we have a bench full of defensive replacements (Uribe, Hall, Anderson) with maybe Dwayne Wise being the one player on the bench that has consistently brought it to the plate this year. We have a first baseman that has not hit in almost 2 full seasons now. We have Contreras in the rotation still... for whatever that's worth.

And yet we are in 1st place.

If we are eyeing October, I look at what I listed above and I'm not sure I can comfortably say we're built to win. Anaheim has a lot deeper bats than we do and their rotation seems to be fairly solid as well. The East is loaded with hitters, but short on pitching... though Boston seems to be putting a nice rotation together w/ Lester, Beckett, and Dice-K.

I do not see us beating Anaheim, Boston or Tampa in a 5 or 7 game series, and if it comes down to a slugfest we cannot hit w/ the Yankees.

I want to win, and not just to the point that we get to buy "Division Champion" hats for $35. I want rings. I don't see us doing that w/ this roster.

That being said... if Paulie has little value right now BUT we're not going to win if he shows up in the lineup every day w/ 0-4... and we haven't got a guy on the pine that could hit .250 in a pinch... and we've got Vazquez inventing ways to lose and Contreras frustrating the word 'confused,' what am I as a Sox fan supposed want? I cannot believe status quo is good enough

MCHSoxFan
07-29-2008, 04:36 PM
I know this is a HUGE IF, but, IF Paulie was doing 2004, 2005, 2006 material, would we accept and like that he is out 1B, Swish is our CF, Carlos is our LF, and BA comes off the bench? Just wondering.

scarsofthumper
07-29-2008, 05:38 PM
I wonder if the Giants would trade Tim Lincecum for Paul Konerko?

The Giants are in the process of dealing their veterans so the kids can play. They won't trade Molina, but they are divesting themselves of high-priced veteran talent left over from he team centered around Bonds. They are working on dealing veterans for prosepcts because they don't have a great minor league system. They do have a budding hitting star the fans want to see called up, but he will play in the Olympics first.

The Giants would not be interested in Konerko, who only would take time away from Bowker.
I would giggle like a schoolgirl to have Lincecum on our roster.

getonbckthr
07-29-2008, 05:42 PM
Funny. TCQ, Dye, AJ and Alexei all seem to be attending the same school.
Actually with Walker's own admittance he hasn't done anything with TCQ and Alexei.

TDog
07-29-2008, 05:59 PM
I would giggle like a schoolgirl to have Lincecum on our roster.


I probably should have suggeted Konerko for Aaron Rowand instead of Paul Konerko for Tim Lincecum. That isn't going to happen either. The Giants will not be trading Lincecum. But that won't stop people from suggesting the Sox could make a deal for him.

Barry Zito might be available for prospects. Oddly enough, Zito and Lincecum complement each other. The Giants pay Zito what Lincecum is worth while they pay Lincecum (less his signing bonus) what Zito is worth.

I am guessing, as long as we're dealing in the wildly hypothetical, that Konerko would approve a trade to the Giants, if only to go to a place where the fans wouldn't complain he is the slowest man on the team. Bengie Molina makes Paul Konerko look like Scott Podsednik.

kitekrazy
07-29-2008, 06:10 PM
If we are eyeing October, I look at what I listed above and I'm not sure I can comfortably say we're built to win. Anaheim has a lot deeper bats than we do and their rotation seems to be fairly solid as well. The East is loaded with hitters, but short on pitching... though Boston seems to be putting a nice rotation together w/ Lester, Beckett, and Dice-K.

I do not see us beating Anaheim, Boston or Tampa in a 5 or 7 game series, and if it comes down to a slugfest we cannot hit w/ the Yankees.

I want to win, and not just to the point that we get to buy "Division Champion" hats for $35. I want rings. I don't see us doing that w/ this roster.


I agree. I don't think there's a mid season trade that will give me any confidence the Sox are World Series bound.
The Sox made it to first place with some great young talent performances while some of the veterans under achieved the 1st half.

Domeshot17
07-29-2008, 06:32 PM
I agree. I don't think there's a mid season trade that will give me any confidence the Sox are World Series bound.
The Sox made it to first place with some great young talent performances while some of the veterans under achieved the 1st half.

I will take the dark cloud label here, but we are a team built for a long season, not a short series. We have an inconsistent and unsteady offense, a rotation that has a bunch of good pitchers, none of whom can match up well in game 1 or probably even game 2 of a playoff series, we don't have an 'ace' let a lone 2 like the deadliest playoff contenders in the AL (Angels-Red Sox). This is a good, fine, 90-94 win team which might make the playoffs, but getting out of round 1 would be a shock. Too many things go against us.

Buehrle throws game 1, maybe we win, depending which Buehrle shows up.

Floyd and Danks in their 1st post season trip? I see them fighting their command under that kind of pressure.

Javy is showing us what happens when he pitches in high pressure games (and has a career ERA in the mid 9s in the playoffs)

Jose?

The offense being good for 12-19 games? Hasn't happened yet.

The only thing we could have hung our hat on was if we can take a lead to the 7th, the bullpen wasn't going to lose it, but thats been shakey too.

I would not sell the farm to get Randy Winn, he doesn't change a damn thing. Kotsay doesn't, Dejesus doesn't. The only position that does is a front line starter, and those were already dealt. You just ride out this team and let it grow, then figure out what you need for next year.

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 06:39 PM
I know this is a HUGE IF, but, IF Paulie was doing 2004, 2005, 2006 material, would we accept and like that he is out 1B, Swish is our CF, Carlos is our LF, and BA comes off the bench? Just wondering.

If Paulie was doing his 2004-2005-2006 thing, basically a .900 OPS, the Sox would be at least 5-7 games up in the standings right now. And yes, I would accept the status quo. I might want BA to get a few more ABs with Swisher hitting for about the same average as BA; it would be a debate between BA's better defense and slightly higher SLG vs. Swisher's much better OBP.

Pear-Zin-Ski
07-29-2008, 06:56 PM
Thanks for reminding everyone that the ultimate goal of every season isnt how many games you win...or if you win your division...the season matters only if you win the World Series....

Seems like a couple people were lost....

You don't think DeJesus would do much for this club?

I will take the dark cloud label here, but we are a team built for a long season, not a short series. We have an inconsistent and unsteady offense, a rotation that has a bunch of good pitchers, none of whom can match up well in game 1 or probably even game 2 of a playoff series, we don't have an 'ace' let a lone 2 like the deadliest playoff contenders in the AL (Angels-Red Sox). This is a good, fine, 90-94 win team which might make the playoffs, but getting out of round 1 would be a shock. Too many things go against us.

Buehrle throws game 1, maybe we win, depending which Buehrle shows up.

Floyd and Danks in their 1st post season trip? I see them fighting their command under that kind of pressure.

Javy is showing us what happens when he pitches in high pressure games (and has a career ERA in the mid 9s in the playoffs)

Jose?

The offense being good for 12-19 games? Hasn't happened yet.

The only thing we could have hung our hat on was if we can take a lead to the 7th, the bullpen wasn't going to lose it, but thats been shakey too.

I would not sell the farm to get Randy Winn, he doesn't change a damn thing. Kotsay doesn't, Dejesus doesn't. The only position that does is a front line starter, and those were already dealt. You just ride out this team and let it grow, then figure out what you need for next year.

Domeshot17
07-29-2008, 07:09 PM
Thanks for reminding everyone that the ultimate goal of every season isnt how many games you win...or if you win your division...the season matters only if you win the World Series....

Seems like a couple people were lost....

You don't think DeJesus would do much for this club?

You don't make trades in July for any other reason than Win in the playoffs. Look at the Angels, you think they just thought "Big lead, but we can't keep it up, we need Tex to get us to the playoffs"? I'm guessing this was the thought "Division is locked up, Starting Pitching is set, Bullpen is one of the best, Closer is the best, but last year we got out slugged in the playoffs and right now we only have 1 guy who can carry an offense, and if he goes cold, we are in trouble in October"

So no, I don't think Dejesus does enough for us to say, lets give up our only really good pitching prospect in Poreda, our best offensive prospect and our 3b next year, and 2 other solid prospects. He won't make a huge difference.

I didn't say the season doesn't matter, but does making the ALDS or ALCS mean much more if you don't win the AL or the World Series?

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 07:20 PM
You don't make trades in July for any other reason than Win in the playoffs. Look at the Angels, you think they just thought "Big lead, but we can't keep it up, we need Tex to get us to the playoffs"? I'm guessing this was the thought "Division is locked up, Starting Pitching is set, Bullpen is one of the best, Closer is the best, but last year we got out slugged in the playoffs and right now we only have 1 guy who can carry an offense, and if he goes cold, we are in trouble in October"

So no, I don't think Dejesus does enough for us to say, lets give up our only really good pitching prospect in Poreda, our best offensive prospect and our 3b next year, and 2 other solid prospects. He won't make a huge difference.

I didn't say the season doesn't matter, but does making the ALDS or ALCS mean much more if you don't win the AL or the World Series?

Right now the Twins are nipping at the Sox heels and DeJesus (or Winn or even Kotsay) might be the difference between first and second place, or the difference between making and not making the playoffs.

Getting there is the most important thing. Strange things can happen in five and seven game series.

Domeshot17
07-29-2008, 07:22 PM
Right now the Twins are nipping at the Sox heels and DeJesus (or Winn or even Kotsay) might be the difference between first and second place, or the difference between making and not making the playoffs.

Getting there is the most important thing. Strange things can happen in five and seven game series.

That is a VERY big might

Frater Perdurabo
07-29-2008, 08:00 PM
That is a VERY big might

I don't quite understand.

Are you saying that because the Angels are so powerful now that the Sox should just stand pat?

Or are you saying that the Sox should only try to make a deal if it brings them an absolute superstar?

Or something else?

Domeshot17
07-29-2008, 10:59 PM
I don't quite understand.

Are you saying that because the Angels are so powerful now that the Sox should just stand pat?

Or are you saying that the Sox should only try to make a deal if it brings them an absolute superstar?

Or something else?

Im saying the idea of giving up Poreda-Fields-Broadway + for a mediocre CF is an awful horrible terrible freaking idea. If you can get Dejesus for a smaller package fine, but overpaying for a guy who doesn't promise you the playoffs, or any help when you get there, is bad. Thats a package that should bring in a front line starter, not a sub par CF like Winn and Kotsay. Dejesus isn't even good enough to trade straight up for Poreda.

russ99
07-29-2008, 11:45 PM
Im saying the idea of giving up Poreda-Fields-Broadway + for a mediocre CF is an awful horrible terrible freaking idea. If you can get Dejesus for a smaller package fine, but overpaying for a guy who doesn't promise you the playoffs, or any help when you get there, is bad. Thats a package that should bring in a front line starter, not a sub par CF like Winn and Kotsay. Dejesus isn't even good enough to trade straight up for Poreda.

The only guy out there that may be available that I'd deal that kind of package for is Roberts.

russ99
07-29-2008, 11:52 PM
I agree. I don't think there's a mid season trade that will give me any confidence the Sox are World Series bound.
The Sox made it to first place with some great young talent performances while some of the veterans under achieved the 1st half.

We'll definitely win or lose with our horses this season, I'll agree with you there. But that's no reason to stand pat.

If Kenny can bring in a major league player (pitcher or hitter) to either complement what we have or fill in for slumping/injured players, it might make the difference of a few games - games we'd likely lose by standing pat and plugging in minor leaguers like Richard, Wise and even Fields for that matter.

Those few games could be the difference between a division title, a wild card or going home in October. Kenny needs to do what he can to get us into the playoffs, where anything can happen. I don't want to see a repeat of 2006 this year because Kenny won't do anything...

kitekrazy
07-30-2008, 12:32 AM
If Kenny can bring in a major league player (pitcher or hitter) to either complement what we have or fill in for slumping/injured players, it might make the difference of a few games - games we'd likely lose by standing pat and plugging in minor leaguers like Richard, Wise and even Fields for that matter.


I'd prefer it this way. The Sox are more than a player away from even considering the World Series. The consistent thing about the Sox is their inconsistency.
I'd rather see Fields and Richar because you have to decide whether Crede and OC and a few others are part of your future.
Sure I wouldn't mind getting Johann Santana and maybe one of those station to station Boston sluggers or A-Rod. It aint gonna happen.
I could put the World Series on hold this season. I don't like the idea of a costly trade just to win the division this year. We could still win it as is.
Every team is looking for a starter, so the price will be high.

I think the "win it all now' approach is a bit premature for this season.

Lillian
07-30-2008, 04:31 AM
I will take the dark cloud label here, but we are a team built for a long season, not a short series. We have an inconsistent and unsteady offense, a rotation that has a bunch of good pitchers, none of whom can match up well in game 1 or probably even game 2 of a playoff series, we don't have an 'ace' let a lone 2 like the deadliest playoff contenders in the AL (Angels-Red Sox). This is a good, fine, 90-94 win team which might make the playoffs, but getting out of round 1 would be a shock. Too many things go against us.

Buehrle throws game 1, maybe we win, depending which Buehrle shows up.

Floyd and Danks in their 1st post season trip? I see them fighting their command under that kind of pressure.

Javy is showing us what happens when he pitches in high pressure games (and has a career ERA in the mid 9s in the playoffs)

Jose?

The offense being good for 12-19 games? Hasn't happened yet.

The only thing we could have hung our hat on was if we can take a lead to the 7th, the bullpen wasn't going to lose it, but thats been shakey too.

I would not sell the farm to get Randy Winn, he doesn't change a damn thing. Kotsay doesn't, Dejesus doesn't. The only position that does is a front line starter, and those were already dealt. You just ride out this team and let it grow, then figure out what you need for next year.

I agree with you. The Sox still do not have a true Ace. In a short series we would not match up well with several of the teams which are likely to make it to the Playoffs.

Tragg
07-30-2008, 07:34 AM
I don't quite understand.

Are you saying that because the Angels are so powerful now that the Sox should just stand pat?

Or are you saying that the Sox should only try to make a deal if it brings them an absolute superstar?

Or something else?
What did we get for Iguchi?

That's what we should give for the mediocre.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 07:43 AM
What did we get for Iguchi?

That's what we should give for the mediocre.

Iguchi was a 30+ 2B. There are lots of players who can play 2B.

Iguchi was a pending free agent whose contract stipulated he could not be offered arbitration. Therefore, he could not decline arbitration and therefore the team could not get any supplemental draft picks.

Trading for him was strictly a two-month rental.

DeJesus can play CF. He's batting .300. He signed cheap for several more years and is only 28.

Yes, what I've proposed is overpaying. Maybe we'd get him for less. I'm just posting what I'd give up to get him.

None of those prospects projects to be a star. Fields is another 1B/DH. Poreda is probably another Thornton. With DeJesus, BA would not be needed. Broadway is a fifth starter at best. Brandon Allen looks like a nice hitter, but he's another 1B/DH.

This team's future is not going to made or broken with any of those guys. This team's future is TCQ, Alexei, Richar, Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, Jenks and hopefully Beckham and Jordan Danks. I'd like BA to be part of that core but I'd be OK with DeJesus instead.

ndgt10
07-30-2008, 07:50 AM
I agree with you. The Sox still do not have a true Ace. In a short series we would not match up well with several of the teams which are likely to make it to the Playoffs.
I guess we should just pack it in and concede the season. Hell, maybe the Sox should trade Buerhle, Dye, and Jenks for prospects so that we might be able to compete in 2012.

Lillian
07-30-2008, 08:38 AM
I guess we should just pack it in and concede the season. Hell, maybe the Sox should trade Buerhle, Dye, and Jenks for prospects so that we might be able to compete in 2012.

Where did that come from?
That is not what I'm saying. Who do you think should be considered an Ace on the Sox staff?
My agreement with the post in question is simply that the team lacks the front line starters to give it the best prospects for success in the Post Season.
There is a nice core of young and veteran players on this team, and it might not take that much to get them over the top. However, the missing Ace doesn't appear to be obtainable at this late date.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 08:56 AM
Its WHITE SOX WEDNESDAY!!! :bandance:

Does Kenny finally pull the trigger on something here? Maybe he was waiting to see how we'd fair this series and we all see how that's going. I think we HAVE to do something.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 09:00 AM
Its WHITE SOX WEDNESDAY!!! :bandance:

Does Kenny finally pull the trigger on something here? Maybe he was waiting to see how we'd fair this series and we all see how that's going. I think we HAVE to do something.

For the right pitcher or center fielder, any prospect(s) is (are) expendable.

asindc
07-30-2008, 09:03 AM
Its WHITE SOX WEDNESDAY!!! :bandance:

Does Kenny finally pull the trigger on something here? Maybe he was waiting to see how we'd fair this series and we all see how that's going. I think we HAVE to do something.

Or maybe he has been working his ass off trying to improve the team, but none of the counter offers he has been getting are worth it. Just because nothing has happened doesn't mean he hasn't been trying to make it happen. More to the point, just because we don't know what's going on in the front office doesn't mean they are not doing their jobs.

soxpride724
07-30-2008, 09:10 AM
Or maybe he has been working his ass off trying to improve the team, but none of the counter offers he has been getting are worth it. Just because nothing has happened doesn't mean he hasn't been trying to make it happen. More to the point, just because we don't know what's going on in the front office doesn't mean they are not doing their jobs.

I agree. I don't think we have anything that anyone else wants in our farm system. If Kenny pulls off a major deal I will be surprised and or shocked.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 09:11 AM
I think we all kind of assume that they are trying. I just hope something gets done.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 09:12 AM
I agree. I don't think we have anything that anyone else wants in our farm system. If Kenny pulls off a major deal I will be surprised and or shocked.


Who says it has to be from our Farm System? I can name a few players I wouldn't mind see go on the major league roster

soxpride724
07-30-2008, 09:14 AM
Who says it has to be from our Farm System? I can name a few players I wouldn't mind see go on the major league roster

Are these players with current value you are refering to?

chitown13
07-30-2008, 09:21 AM
Are these players with current value you are refering to?


Sure. Of course I'd like to see Paulie and Thome go but I'm not counting on that for obvious reasons. However, I can see Cabrera, Fields, Floyd, or Anderson go.

asindc
07-30-2008, 09:23 AM
Sure. Of course I'd like to see Paulie and Thome go but I'm not counting on that for obvious reasons. However, I can see Cabrera, Fields, Floyd, or Anderson go.

I'd rather see Fields stay until I know what's happening with Crede's back. The other players you mentioned, though, I wouldn't be upset about them leaving, even though I really like Floyd and Cabrera.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 09:29 AM
I actually really like Cabrera too and I do think he can/is a key part of this team as he breaks up the lineup a bit. We just need to get some versatility on this team though and you are going to have to give up talent to get it.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 09:31 AM
Again, I'm not saying Kenny isn't working on stuff and I have complete faith in him since he proved me wrong with many of his trades (Freddy, McCarthy, etc). I just hope he gets something done.

russ99
07-30-2008, 11:36 AM
I agree. I don't think we have anything that anyone else wants in our farm system. If Kenny pulls off a major deal I will be surprised and or shocked.

I don't think that's the case at all. I think Kenny's being over-protective of our prospects for some reason, maybe pressure from Jerry? Which considering the track record of Sox prospects, maybe he shouldn't be. Only one traded prospect really came back to bite Kenny his entire career here, and that's Chris Young.

Sure, it would be stupid to deal if GMs are looking for a stud like Poreda for some has-been reliever who's having his only good season, but I do think there are players available there that can help the Sox this year. Maybe the other GMs may get a little more into reality and lower their asking prices the closer we get to the deadline.

Kenny's never been one not to pull the trigger, so we'll have to wait and see, I guess...

voodoochile
07-30-2008, 11:40 AM
I don't think that's the case at all. I think Kenny's being over-protective of our prospects for some reason, maybe pressure from Jerry? Which considering the track record of Sox prospects, maybe he shouldn't be. Only one traded prospect really came back to bite Kenny his entire career here, and that's Chris Young.

Sure, it would be stupid to deal if GMs are looking for a stud like Poreda for some has-been reliever who's having his only good season, but I do think there are players out there that can help the Sox this year. Maybe the other GMs may get a little more into reality the closer we get to the deadline.

Kenny's never been one not to pull the trigger, so we'll have to wait and see, I guess...

You mean THE Chris Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=6514)? More like a mosquito bite than a major wound...

oeo
07-30-2008, 11:43 AM
I don't think that's the case at all. I think Kenny's being over-protective of our prospects for some reason, maybe pressure from Jerry? Which considering the track record of Sox prospects, maybe he shouldn't be. Only one traded prospect really came back to bite Kenny his entire career here, and that's Chris Young.

Jerry hasn't put restrictions like that on before, I doubt it starts now. He's just not going to overpay.

And the book is still out on Chris Young. He's still young, but he's showing the same crap he showed last year. Good speed and good defense, yet low average, no patience, and it's basically homerun or nothing with the guy.

kitekrazy
07-30-2008, 11:45 AM
Sure. Of course I'd like to see Paulie and Thome go but I'm not counting on that for obvious reasons. However, I can see Cabrera, Fields, Floyd, or Anderson go.

Why would you trade Floyd? Who do you replace him with?
The biggest hole to fill in MLB is pitching.

Trade Fields, you have to sign Crede. What FA 3rd baseman are out there? We could use Jaun Uribe but fans he's forget he's a weak bat.

Trade Cabrera? See the comment on Jaun Uribe.

Anderson, PK and Thome are not tradable unless you want to do an Iguchi type trade.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 12:41 PM
Why would you trade Floyd? Who do you replace him with?
The biggest hole to fill in MLB is pitching.

Trade Fields, you have to sign Crede. What FA 3rd baseman are out there? We could use Jaun Uribe but fans he's forget he's a weak bat.

Trade Cabrera? See the comment on Jaun Uribe.

Anderson, PK and Thome are not tradable unless you want to do an Iguchi type trade.


I didn't want to get into full details about everyone I mentioned but here goes...

I'd only trade Floyd if we got a starting pitcher in return or had someone to take over. I'm not going to trade him with no plan. I'm one that remembers the Floyd of old and it appears that he has been showing back up again on occasion. Trade him while is value is high

Trade Fields you ask? Sure, why not. He isn't the youngest guy anymore and whats so wrong with resigning Crede? (other than the $$$). If you don't want to trade Fields, then trade Crede. They should've traded Fields last year IMO when his value was WAY higher

Cabrera, I don't want to trade him. But, if a Baltimore situation worked out and we can move Alexei to SS and get Roberts at 2B. See ya Cabrera

I agree about Thome and Konerko, but Anderson I sort of disagree. Anderson is still young and doesn't have the huge contract like these other two. I'm sure there are quite a few teams out there that would love to have him.

scarsofthumper
07-30-2008, 12:50 PM
July 21, 2008
Joliet: Released INF Mike Caruso (Veteran).
Schaumburg: Released LHP Matt Ford (Veteran).
There's always THAT option

the1tab
07-30-2008, 01:53 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year? I've heard that Alexei's the best athlete on the roster & that he prefers SS. I've heard Uribe is still breathing and signed thru 2009. I've heard the name Gordon Beckham... does anyone assume OC is going to sign a one year contract? And how many mediocre middle infielders do we need? my biggest beef with Winter '08 is that we kept Uribe and then traded for another SS... personally, I don't see Orlando Cabrera on the South Side next year.

b) Does the injury to Joe Crede's back bring down his value as a free agent? It certainly does in a trade (he's on the 15-day). If his price tag comes down to something we can handle, why would you make a change at third from a fan favorite who's generally consistent who we didn't overpay on the hype of his name before we had to (sound like Konerko)? I do not see a single thing Fields can do that a healthy Joe Crede can't other than land us something of substance in a trade in the next 36 hours.

c) What the hell do we do w/ our pitching staff????? Can I believe that Gavin Floyd's for real, or do I sell high? Is Mark Buehrle condemmed to pitching .500 baseball for the rest of his life because he got paid? Would Javy Vazquez stop pitching just well enough to lose? Would Jose take his meds and stop being bipolar - for a month he'll be Cy Young's older brother, the next 3 months he'll be the poster child for Helen Keller's Strike Zone School.

All three of these issues lead me to think say that what we do at the deadline tomorrow doesn't mean a thing in 2008 if it isn't enormous. I concur w/ the earlier breakdown of what we'd look like in a short series... Buehrle might be an ace in Game One... might... then what? Javy? Danks/Floyd with ZERO experience?

Call me spoiled, but I don't want the division championship. That's not good enough. I want the whole deal. I want hardware that comes in expensive boxes. And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.

chitown13
07-30-2008, 01:58 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year? I've heard that Alexei's the best athlete on the roster & that he prefers SS. I've heard Uribe is still breathing and signed thru 2009. I've heard the name Gordon Beckham... does anyone assume OC is going to sign a one year contract? And how many mediocre middle infielders do we need? my biggest beef with Winter '08 is that we kept Uribe and then traded for another SS... personally, I don't see Orlando Cabrera on the South Side next year.

b) Does the injury to Joe Crede's back bring down his value as a free agent? It certainly does in a trade (he's on the 15-day). If his price tag comes down to something we can handle, why would you make a change at third from a fan favorite who's generally consistent who we didn't overpay on the hype of his name before we had to (sound like Konerko)? I do not see a single thing Fields can do that a healthy Joe Crede can't other than land us something of substance in a trade in the next 36 hours.

c) What the hell do we do w/ our pitching staff????? Can I believe that Gavin Floyd's for real, or do I sell high? Is Mark Buehrle condemmed to pitching .500 baseball for the rest of his life because he got paid? Would Javy Vazquez stop pitching just well enough to lose? Would Jose take his meds and stop being bipolar - for a month he'll be Cy Young's older brother, the next 3 months he'll be the poster child for Helen Keller's Strike Zone School.

All three of these issues lead me to think say that what we do at the deadline tomorrow doesn't mean a thing in 2008 if it isn't enormous. I concur w/ the earlier breakdown of what we'd look like in a short series... Buehrle might be an ace in Game One... might... then what? Javy? Danks/Floyd with ZERO experience?

Call me spoiled, but I don't want the division championship. That's not good enough. I want the whole deal. I want hardware that comes in expensive boxes. And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.


Great post. Agree 100%

Law11
07-30-2008, 02:01 PM
Very well put Tab...
This team as its structured isnt likely to beat the Angels but id rather take care of the division and anything is possible come October.

Other than KW getting a BP arm which i think he'll do I dont see any big, big moves coming.

soxpride724
07-30-2008, 02:08 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year? I've heard that Alexei's the best athlete on the roster & that he prefers SS. I've heard Uribe is still breathing and signed thru 2009. I've heard the name Gordon Beckham... does anyone assume OC is going to sign a one year contract? And how many mediocre middle infielders do we need? my biggest beef with Winter '08 is that we kept Uribe and then traded for another SS... personally, I don't see Orlando Cabrera on the South Side next year.

b) Does the injury to Joe Crede's back bring down his value as a free agent? It certainly does in a trade (he's on the 15-day). If his price tag comes down to something we can handle, why would you make a change at third from a fan favorite who's generally consistent who we didn't overpay on the hype of his name before we had to (sound like Konerko)? I do not see a single thing Fields can do that a healthy Joe Crede can't other than land us something of substance in a trade in the next 36 hours.

c) What the hell do we do w/ our pitching staff????? Can I believe that Gavin Floyd's for real, or do I sell high? Is Mark Buehrle condemmed to pitching .500 baseball for the rest of his life because he got paid? Would Javy Vazquez stop pitching just well enough to lose? Would Jose take his meds and stop being bipolar - for a month he'll be Cy Young's older brother, the next 3 months he'll be the poster child for Helen Keller's Strike Zone School.

All three of these issues lead me to think say that what we do at the deadline tomorrow doesn't mean a thing in 2008 if it isn't enormous. I concur w/ the earlier breakdown of what we'd look like in a short series... Buehrle might be an ace in Game One... might... then what? Javy? Danks/Floyd with ZERO experience?

Call me spoiled, but I don't want the division championship. That's not good enough. I want the whole deal. I want hardware that comes in expensive boxes. And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.


It would take some big roster moves to compete with Anaheim.

jabrch
07-30-2008, 02:14 PM
And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.

Once you get into the playoffs, any team can beat any other team. Do we really need to rehash the littany of teams in the playoffs who were huge dogs and won serieses that they had been given no chance to win?

In 5 or 7 games, this team can beat anyone.

jabrch
07-30-2008, 02:18 PM
Only one traded prospect really came back to bite Kenny his entire career here, and that's Chris Young.

.236/.304/.420

Sure - he's hitting better than BA and PK. Sure - he's on par with Swisher. But I don't see how you can possibly say this this deal came back to bite Kenny.

Sockinchisox
07-30-2008, 02:55 PM
According to Jayson Stark, no one is interested in Sox prospects so the Sox have made Cabrera available in an effort to get a SP or a RP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mlb_trade_deadline

btrain929
07-30-2008, 02:57 PM
According to Jayson Stark, no one is interested in Sox prospects so the Sox have made Cabrera available in an effort to get a SP or a RP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mlb_trade_deadline

It better not be for a RP, and if it's a SP, hopefully one we'd have for a few years.

An old SP, or a RP is not greater than 2 draft picks.

spiffie
07-30-2008, 03:00 PM
Good! I'd hate to see any of our future all-stars traded when our team is in first place, and doesn't need anything but to get healthy and get out of the little rut they're in. Why would we go out and try to pick up someone who isn't going to upgrade anything we have when our team is still the class of the AL Central?!

Madvora
07-30-2008, 03:03 PM
According to Jayson Stark, no one is interested in Sox prospects so the Sox have made Cabrera available in an effort to get a SP or a RP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mlb_trade_deadline
Just saw that too at sportsline. They are also saying that the Rangers are interested in Masset.

http://mlbtr.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/8691437?tag=Chicago%20White%20Sox

turners56
07-30-2008, 03:09 PM
Just saw that too at sportsline. They are also saying that the Rangers are interested in Masset.

http://mlbtr.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/8691437?tag=Chicago%20White%20Sox

I would be interested in getting a guy like Frank Catalanotto from them.

thomas35forever
07-30-2008, 03:13 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Cabrera leave. He's not staying beyond this year anyway, so if someone will give us a reliever for him, make the deal.

turners56
07-30-2008, 03:14 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Cabrera leave. He's not staying beyond this year anyway, so if someone will give us a reliever for him, make the deal.

We can also have Uribe play 2B or bring up either Getz or Richar to fill the spot at 2B.

Another effect of such a deal is that Ramirez might have to bat leadoff because of the loss of Cabrera.

JermaineDye05
07-30-2008, 03:14 PM
Just saw that too at sportsline. They are also saying that the Rangers are interested in Masset.

http://mlbtr.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/8691437?tag=Chicago%20White%20Sox

I'm sure they are, I still can't believe they threw Nick in the deal with Danks for McCarthy. Now we can all see why Kenny was overwhelmed and pretty much had to pull the trigger on that deal.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 03:18 PM
You guys are willing to trade our leadoff hitter and gold glove SS for a middle reliever...then go with a lineup that includes Uribe, Fields and 2 of the following: Wise, Anderson, Swisher, and Konerko?

You're kidding me right?

turners56
07-30-2008, 03:19 PM
You guys are willing to trade our leadoff hitter and gold glove SS for a middle reliever...then go with a lineup that includes Uribe, Fields and 2 of the following: Wise, Anderson, Swisher, and Konerko?

You're kidding me right?

Our bullpen's allowed a run or more in like the last 15 games. THAT SUCKS.

oeo
07-30-2008, 03:21 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year? I've heard that Alexei's the best athlete on the roster & that he prefers SS. I've heard Uribe is still breathing and signed thru 2009. I've heard the name Gordon Beckham... does anyone assume OC is going to sign a one year contract? And how many mediocre middle infielders do we need? my biggest beef with Winter '08 is that we kept Uribe and then traded for another SS... personally, I don't see Orlando Cabrera on the South Side next year.

Uribe is not signed through 2009, and Gordon Beckham won't touch the White Sox next year...except maybe as a September call-up.

thomas35forever
07-30-2008, 03:21 PM
You guys are willing to trade our leadoff hitter and gold glove SS for a middle reliever...then go with a lineup that includes Uribe, Fields and 2 of the following: Wise, Anderson, Swisher, and Konerko?

You're kidding me right?
We're only going as far as our pitching will carry us. Cabrera's not in our future. I'll take any pitching help right now.

oeo
07-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Our bullpen's allowed a run or more in like the last 15 games. THAT SUCKS.

Bullpens slump too. :dunno:

I personally think what we have is good enough. If we can add an arm, great...you can never have enough. But if this is how it stands the rest of the year, I'm confident they can turn things around.

Tragg
07-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year? I've heard that Alexei's the best athlete on the roster & that he prefers SS. I've heard Uribe is still breathing and signed thru 2009. I've heard the name Gordon Beckham... does anyone assume OC is going to sign a one year contract? And how many mediocre middle infielders do we need? my biggest beef with Winter '08 is that we kept Uribe and then traded for another SS... personally, I don't see Orlando Cabrera on the South Side next year.

b) Does the injury to Joe Crede's back bring down his value as a free agent? It certainly does in a trade (he's on the 15-day). If his price tag comes down to something we can handle, why would you make a change at third from a fan favorite who's generally consistent who we didn't overpay on the hype of his name before we had to (sound like Konerko)? I do not see a single thing Fields can do that a healthy Joe Crede can't other than land us something of substance in a trade in the next 36 hours.

c) What the hell do we do w/ our pitching staff????? Can I believe that Gavin Floyd's for real, or do I sell high? Is Mark Buehrle condemmed to pitching .500 baseball for the rest of his life because he got paid? Would Javy Vazquez stop pitching just well enough to lose? Would Jose take his meds and stop being bipolar - for a month he'll be Cy Young's older brother, the next 3 months he'll be the poster child for Helen Keller's Strike Zone School.

All three of these issues lead me to think say that what we do at the deadline tomorrow doesn't mean a thing in 2008 if it isn't enormous. I concur w/ the earlier breakdown of what we'd look like in a short series... Buehrle might be an ace in Game One... might... then what? Javy? Danks/Floyd with ZERO experience?

Call me spoiled, but I don't want the division championship. That's not good enough. I want the whole deal. I want hardware that comes in expensive boxes. And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.
The only reason to ever make the Cabrera trade was for the draft choices. So I doubt we'd get that equivalent if we traded him.

I disagree with you about a world series roster. This notion of loading and "going for it" doesn't really work....the best "going for it" there is is to give yourself maximum chances, which means get into the playoffs as often as possible.

Now I certainly would never trade young talent for Ozzie-style mediocre vetrans. That especially means middle relievers - they are mediocre and inconsistent pitchers, by definition. That hurts long term and short term. When Philly got Iguchi foro the run they gave up nothing....can't we give up nothing for a mediocre hole-plugger, or does that only work one way?
Williams has unsuccessfully chased enough bad middle relievers (Macdougal, aardsma Cisco, Riske)

palehozenychicty
07-30-2008, 03:25 PM
They just have to gage whether that arm is better than two draft picks. We have plenty of middle infielders that can step up, so this is actually the only idea they have.

oeo
07-30-2008, 03:25 PM
The only reason to ever make the Cabrera trade was for the draft choices. So I doubt we'd get that equivalent if we traded him.

No, Tragg, that isn't the reason. The reason is to bring in a Gold Glove SS with great leadership and energy, when that was sorely lacking in 2007.

Jayson Stark says there is little to no interest in our "prospects" and that Cabrera is out there for the taking if the right pitcher is offered. So that about squashes your draft choice theory.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 03:29 PM
We're only going as far as our pitching will carry us. Cabrera's not in our future. I'll take any pitching help right now.

And taking a Gold Glover out of SS won't hurt ALL of our pitchers?

Cabrera is also one of our better hitters and better RBI guys. The drop off from him to Uribe (which we'll see everyday) is far more than the difference a middle reliever will provide (who will pitch at most 5 to 6 innings a week).

I undersand pitching wins, but what's the point if you run out a lineup everyday where 4 of the hitters are complete crap? How many 2-1 games do you expect to win on your way to a division title?

I know we need pitching help...but if it's at the cost of crippling other parts of our team, what's the point?

Foulke You
07-30-2008, 03:30 PM
You guys are willing to trade our leadoff hitter and gold glove SS for a middle reliever...then go with a lineup that includes Uribe, Fields and 2 of the following: Wise, Anderson, Swisher, and Konerko?

You're kidding me right?
I agree completely. I think many on WSI undervalue Orlando Cabrera's contribution to our offense. Without OC, we have nobody on the roster who can bat leadoff competently. If you trade him, who is going to lead off? Uribe? Ramirez? Two free swingers who aren't what we need in that spot. OC is not a prototype leadoff hitter but he has done a good job there and without him, our lineup would be considerably weaker.

Not to mention that Cabrera and Ramirez have provided strong defense up the middle for the Sox which has helped our younger pitchers a lot. I think OC might have soured a lot of Sox fans early with his slow start and his calling the scorer's booth incidents but he has quietly been a big part of why the Sox are in 1st place this year. If you trade Cabrera this year, you had better be getting a huge difference maker in return and not just a middle reliever.

Tragg
07-30-2008, 03:36 PM
No, Tragg, that isn't the reason. The reason is to bring in a Gold Glove SS with great leadership and energy, when that was sorely lacking in 2007.

Jayson Stark says there is little to no interest in our "prospects" and that Cabrera is out there for the taking if the right pitcher is offered. So that about squashes your draft choice theory.Yes OEO that is the reason. Otherwise, the Sox, based on your reports, wouldn't be looking to essentially reverse the trade. You think we'd take Garland back right now for Cabrera? Of course we would.
What the 2007 team lacked was talent. It wasn't baseball's lowest scoring offense because it lacked "energy" and leadership (that Cabrera - some leader)
When we made that trade we a)cut our pitchign razor thin; b)already had a SS signed for $4 million and c)used our best trading chit when we had numerous holes to fill. The ONLY surplus we got out of that trade were the draft choices. And, indeed, because our pitchign became thin (and that risk surely existed) we essentially would like to rescind the trade and give up the surplus that we did get.

oeo
07-30-2008, 03:42 PM
Yes OEO that is the reason. Otherwise, the Sox, based on your reports, wouldn't be looking to essentially reverse the trade.

He wasn't as advertised...

Trading for draft choices makes so much more sense. The Sox could have gotten prospects from the Angels for Garland, but chose Cabrera...so they could draft a couple more guys in a year and a half then maybe get them to the big leagues in 3,4, maybe 5 years? You're kidding...I hope.

What the 2007 team lacked was talent. It wasn't baseball's lowest scoring offense because it lacked "energy" and leadership (that Cabrera - some leader)It lacked a lot of things, and energy/leadership were two of them. That team was dead from day one. And again, Cabrera was supposedly a good leader. If you ask me, he has shown those qualities on occasion. At the same time, he's shown a bad side, too.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 03:45 PM
We traded for Cabrerra because we didn't like Uribe as an everyday SS. Uribe was signed as a backup plan in case we could not obtain another SS.

Cabrerra is a very good player. I have a friend that is a big Angels fan and at the time of the deal he thought we were making off like bandits in the trade (he also was very familiar with Garland after living in Chicago the past 5 years).

Cabrerra isn't simply just a "ra ra" guy. He's an ex-all-star and has played in some hurge playoff games People think Uribe, Richar, or Getz would be able to step in there no probablem? Uh no. Uribe isn't very good as an everyday player, and I think the last thing this team needs is yet another rookie (with very low potential to be more than an average player) playing everyday in a pennant race.

People say if you could do the trade over you would keep Garland. I wouldn't. Denks and Floyd have both filled in quite nicely (and one of them, not Jose or Javy that would have been in AAA/the pen if Garland was still here) and Garland hasn't been anything special in Anaheim. He's probably their fifth best starter right now. This team is in third place right now without Cabrerra. Who cares if he won't be on the team next year? We'll get draft picks and as it stands now, he's helping us this year.

In a clutch situation I want JD, TCQ, and OC up...anyone else, including Crede, I'm iffy about.

Tragg
07-30-2008, 03:48 PM
He wasn't as advertised...

Trading for draft choices makes so much more sense. The Sox could have gotten prospects for Garland, but chose Cabrera...so they could draft a couple more guys in a year and a half then maybe get them to the big leagues in 3-4 years? You're kidding...I hope.


What I'm saying OEO is this....trading Garland for Cabrera would have made no sense because we would have thinned out our pitching to risky, risky levels, in return for a player that we really didn't need. The only reason that trade makes sense is because we were getting more than just Cabrera - we also got choices.
I'm not saying we wanted draft choices over prospects. What we got was a veteran (say what you want but our manager likes veterans) and draft choices....Williams figure that was better than any prospects he'd get for a 1 year rent of Garland (and he was probably right). You' have to admit OEO that it was a reactive trade - otherwise, we never would have signed Uribe.

I found it annoying that for the first 6 weeks Uribe was still in the lineup.....

oeo
07-30-2008, 03:50 PM
We didn't trade Garland for draft choices. We traded him for Cabrera PLUS draft choices. It wouldn't have made any sense to trade foro Cabrera if he DIDN'T have the draft choices attached because what he brings (your list) isnt' worth the risk of thinning out our pitching. I'm not saying we wanted draft choices over prospects. What we got was a veteran (say what you want but our manager likes veterans) and draft choices....Williams figure that was better than any prospects he'd get for a 1 year rent of Garland (and he was probably right). You' have to admit OEO that it was a reactive trade - otherwise, we never would have signed Uribe.

Ugh...you just keep uttering the same crap over and over again. I quit.

RCWHITESOX
07-30-2008, 03:52 PM
Yes OEO that is the reason. Otherwise, the Sox, based on your reports, wouldn't be looking to essentially reverse the trade. You think we'd take Garland back right now for Cabrera? Of course we would.
What the 2007 team lacked was talent. It wasn't baseball's lowest scoring offense because it lacked "energy" and leadership (that Cabrera - some leader)
When we made that trade we a)cut our pitchign razor thin; b)already had a SS signed for $4 million and c)used our best trading chit when we had numerous holes to fill. The ONLY surplus we got out of that trade were the draft choices. And, indeed, because our pitchign became thin (and that risk surely existed) we essentially would like to rescind the trade and give up the surplus that we did get.

I would not trade Cabrera unless I was getting a #2 or 3 pitcher. I definitely would not want Garland back. At best he is a #5 starter. The Angels are so unimpressed that they have informed him earlier this year that they will not be offering him a contract.Plus trying to get a top shortstop is far more difficult than trying to pick up a pitcher of the same caliber.

Domeshot17
07-30-2008, 03:53 PM
you guys are both right

Kenny looked and said, we have 7 SP (including the 5 now, Garland, and Broadway) but no SS. He then looked and said I can have Garland for 1 more year and type B comp or Cabrera 1 more year and type A comp, one fills a hole, one doesn't, one brings better compensation, one doesn't.

I wouldn't want Garland back, I hope if we make a trade, its for a front end guy, not a back end guy who is about as good as the league Average. Garland was one of the most over rated Sox players in recent history.

I want a guy who can pitch game 1 or 2 of the playoffs, not game 4.

palehozenychicty
07-30-2008, 03:54 PM
I would not trade Cabrera unless I was getting a #2 or 3 pitcher. I definitely would not want Garland back. At best he is a #5 starter. The Angels are so unimpressed that they have informed him earlier this year that they will not be offering him a contract.Plus trying to get a top shortstop is far more difficult than trying to pick up a pitcher of the same caliber.

Good luck. The only team that really needs a shortstop is the Dodgers, and he won't be starting if/when Furcal returns. The O's need one as well, but they're not giving up pitching for a rental.

Tragg
07-30-2008, 03:58 PM
Ugh...you just keep uttering the same crap over and over again. I quit. I edited above but try this.
Williams would never have traded Garland for Cabrera straight up, with our pitching as thin as it was, if he didn't get something extra - and he did. The something extra, while not the reason for the trade, made the trade make sense.


It's not that Garland is a better player than Cabrera -he probably isn't. It's just that we had a SS but were thin at pitching, so we were trading from weakness, which means you need to get more.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 03:58 PM
Good luck. The only team that really needs a shortstop is the Dodgers, and he won't be starting if/when Furcal returns. The O's need one as well, but they're not giving up pitching for a rental.

This is likely true....which means we don't make the trade. If all we can get for OC is a relief pitcher (which may be the case, especially given the Tigers Yankees trade), then you don't make the trade.

Adele_H
07-30-2008, 03:58 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year?

b) Does the injury to Joe Crede's back bring down his value as a free agent? .

c) Can I believe that Gavin Floyd's for real, or do I sell high?
Is Mark Buehrle condemmed to pitching .500 baseball for the rest of his life because he got paid?
Would Javy Vazquez stop pitching just well enough to lose?
Would Jose take his meds and stop being bipolar



Call me spoiled, but I don't want the division championship. That's not good enough. I want the whole deal. I want hardware that comes in expensive boxes. And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.


a. It all depends on whether or not he can deliver a Kenny Lofton (Indians, Giants in 2002, Cubs in 2003) like impact at the top of the order down the stretch. And to shore up that legendary D. of his, which is becoming increasingly more pedestrian with each day.

b. Yes.

c. He's for real, just not "2 almost no-hitters in a month" for real. I'd trade him for Holliday and a few others of that ilk, but other than that, Floyd is fine as long as his arm tolerates all those nasty breaking balls he throws.
Mark Buerhle is fine, even if he's not a true ace against really good offensive teams.
Vazquez.... urgh, anyone who blows up like he did against the Cubs twice in one week is in my doghouse for some time.
Contreras needs to be traded in the off-season, I hope a strong finish to 2008 rebounds his value.

russ99
07-30-2008, 03:59 PM
Let's answer a few questions before we bicker about who does what before the deadline:

a) Is OC playing SS for the White Sox next year? I've heard that Alexei's the best athlete on the roster & that he prefers SS. I've heard Uribe is still breathing and signed thru 2009. I've heard the name Gordon Beckham... does anyone assume OC is going to sign a one year contract? And how many mediocre middle infielders do we need? my biggest beef with Winter '08 is that we kept Uribe and then traded for another SS... personally, I don't see Orlando Cabrera on the South Side next year.

b) Does the injury to Joe Crede's back bring down his value as a free agent? It certainly does in a trade (he's on the 15-day). If his price tag comes down to something we can handle, why would you make a change at third from a fan favorite who's generally consistent who we didn't overpay on the hype of his name before we had to (sound like Konerko)? I do not see a single thing Fields can do that a healthy Joe Crede can't other than land us something of substance in a trade in the next 36 hours.

c) What the hell do we do w/ our pitching staff????? Can I believe that Gavin Floyd's for real, or do I sell high? Is Mark Buehrle condemmed to pitching .500 baseball for the rest of his life because he got paid? Would Javy Vazquez stop pitching just well enough to lose? Would Jose take his meds and stop being bipolar - for a month he'll be Cy Young's older brother, the next 3 months he'll be the poster child for Helen Keller's Strike Zone School.

All three of these issues lead me to think say that what we do at the deadline tomorrow doesn't mean a thing in 2008 if it isn't enormous. I concur w/ the earlier breakdown of what we'd look like in a short series... Buehrle might be an ace in Game One... might... then what? Javy? Danks/Floyd with ZERO experience?

Call me spoiled, but I don't want the division championship. That's not good enough. I want the whole deal. I want hardware that comes in expensive boxes. And this White Sox roster cannot beat Anaheim.

a) I'd love to see Cabrera come back next year, but I doubt he will and it has nothing to do with any incidents this year. This will be his last contract and he's going to want to max out. If for some crazy reason he'll take a normal salary or a slight pay cut he could be back.

That said, I don't want to see Kenny mess up the lineup/defense by dealing O.C. We should keep him if we have any chance of going far in the playoffs. The 2 picks are worth more that we can get for him now anyway... Also, everyone forgets Ramirez is a rookie. I love the guy, but he's no team leader (yet) and pressures of a pennant race/playoffs could get to him.

b) Absolutely not. Boras will come up with his usual 100 page hand bound book stating his case that Crede is due top dollar. He'll get it too, as many teams need a power hitting 3B, and he's put up good numbers this year. It's not like last year's case with Andruw and a glut of other available outfielders. And I seriously doubt the Sox will be in the running regardless what Crede and the Sox have said up to this point. Heck if he were healthy, I'd assume Kenny might even put him on the block by now...

c) Floyd and Danks are coming along nicely. I do have concerns about their youth and innings pitched, and Buerhle/Vazquez's shakiness and Contreras in general. Which is why Kenny should get us a backup starter before either of the 2 trade deadlines. Too early to worry about the playoffs, things tend to shake out. I wouldn't be displeased with a Buehrle, Danks, Vazquez and #4 to be determined in the playoffs.

Anaheim could fall apart, too. Let's get in the playoffs first before freaking out about any on-paper matchups.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 04:02 PM
According to Jayson Stark, no one is interested in Sox prospects so the Sox have made Cabrera available in an effort to get a SP or a RP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=mlb_trade_deadline

This is basically an admission that the Garland-Cabrera trade was a waste.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a veteran starter like Garland right now?

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 04:08 PM
This is basically an admission that the Garland-Cabrera trade was a waste.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a veteran starter like Garland right now?

How is this a concession that the trade is a waste? What if we trade him for someone better than Garland? It's a rumor anyway.

Again, If you replace Denks/Floyd with Garland and Cabrerra with Uribe/early Alexei/Ozuna....we are not even close to first place. So no...that trade was not a waste.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 04:10 PM
How is this a concession that the trade is a waste? What if we trade him for someone better than Garland? It's a rumor anyway.

Again, If you replace Denks/Floyd with Garland and Cabrerra with Uribe/early Alexei/Ozuna....we are not even close to first place. So no...that trade was not a waste.

If you get Garland or worse back, the trade was a waste.

If you get back a pitcher better than Garland and/or signed longer than Garland, then it's not a waste. I don't see how this is possible, though.

Domeshot17
07-30-2008, 04:11 PM
This is basically an admission that the Garland-Cabrera trade was a waste.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a veteran starter like Garland right now?

Oh yah, that 4.30 ERA 1.45 WHIP and that amazing 1.3: 1 K:BB Ratio would do us a lot of good.

Cabrera has done more for us than Garland would have all year. Jon Garland is just average, nothing more, nothing less. He isn't bad, but he isn't all that good, he is just about as average as you get. He had 1 great career year where he had no pressure being the 4th starter behind Freddy Mark and Contreras dominating. After that, he was back to average.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 04:17 PM
Oh yah, that 4.30 ERA 1.45 WHIP and that amazing 1.3: 1 K:BB Ratio would do us a lot of good.

Cabrera has done more for us than Garland would have all year. Jon Garland is just average, nothing more, nothing less. He isn't bad, but he isn't all that good, he is just about as average as you get. He had 1 great career year where he had no pressure being the 4th starter behind Freddy Mark and Contreras dominating. After that, he was back to average.

You have to evaluate in context.

I would have re-signed Iguchi for 2B and been OK with Alexei at SS (with Uribe around as backup). Now your middle infield is set and you have an additional, experienced starting pitcher. Floyd could have been used out of the pen.

As for Garland's K:BB rate, I don't like walks, but Ks are overrated. I'm much happier if he's generating outs on ground balls.

Domeshot17
07-30-2008, 04:22 PM
You have to evaluate in context.

I would have re-signed Iguchi for 2B and been OK with Alexei at SS (with Uribe around as backup). Now your middle infield is set and you have an additional, experienced starting pitcher. Floyd could have been used out of the pen.

As for Garland's K:BB rate, I don't like walks, but Ks are overrated. I'm much happier if he's generating outs on ground balls.
Still, Gavin has been better than Garland. So what you are suggesting leaves us without a lead off hitter, would have had us go into the season with a guy at SS that we had no idea if he was major league ready or not, and weakens an already thin rotation. I don't see how that helps us AT ALL?

Im all for picking up a pitcher who helps, but Garland isn't any better than what we have. Its one thing to look at hindsight and say ok this was not a great move, but another completely to use hindsight to say you still would not make a move and end up with a worse team.

ondafarm
07-30-2008, 04:22 PM
Ugh...you just keep uttering the same crap over and over again. I quit.


Oh, sorry, thought you were talking to me.

gr8mexico
07-30-2008, 04:30 PM
You have to evaluate in context.

I would have re-signed Iguchi for 2B and been OK with Alexei at SS (with Uribe around as backup). Now your middle infield is set and you have an additional, experienced starting pitcher. Floyd could have been used out of the pen.

As for Garland's K:BB rate, I don't like walks, but Ks are overrated. I'm much happier if he's generating outs on ground balls.
How can you say you would of been OK with Alexei when NOBODY! knew he would be this good. Who would of been your leadoff hitter or #2 hitter going into the season?If the Sox didnt trade for Cabrera, Remember you still dont know how good Ramirez was going to be. 3rd how can you bench Uribe when he play way better defense then Iguchi.

gregory18n
07-30-2008, 04:42 PM
sell all NOW! we're lucky to be here, the value won't be this high again.

russ99
07-30-2008, 04:43 PM
How can you say you would of been OK with Alexei when NOBODY! knew he would be this good. Who would of been your leadoff hitter or #2 hitter going into the season?If the Sox didnt trade for Cabrera, Remember you still dont know how good Ramirez was going to be. 3rd how can you bench Uribe when he play way better defense then Iguchi.

And I'm not especially keen on the Sox leaning on Alexei too much in his rookie year. He's in a good, comfortable spot at 2nd base and lower in the order. It would be foolish to throw him into such a huge role early on in his career. Next year I'd do it - but not now. A year under his belt in his current situation can really pay off for us down the road.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 04:45 PM
And I'm not especially keen on the Sox leaning on Alexei too much in his rookie year. He's in a good, comfortable spot at 2nd base and lower in the order. It would be foolish to throw him into such a huge role early on in his career. Next year I'd do it - but not now. A year under his belt in his current situation can really pay off for us down the road.

To echo on this, while Sox managment seems sold on Alexei at SS, and while I've heard its his natural position so one would assume he'll be fine there, I have yet to see him play well there on a consistant basis. Playing SS in Cuba is clearly not the same as playing it in the Majors. I think he will be fine there, but I'm not willing to go "all-in" on this fact and would much rather see him make the transition over the off season.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 04:54 PM
I understand that hitting - specifically facing pitchers - is much harder in the MLB than it is in Cuba (or Japan). (But Alexei and Iguchi seemed to handle the transition OK.)

But what is different about fielding at shortstop in the MLB vs. fielding at shortstop in Cuba?

I'd like Daver's and Onda's take on this question.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 04:55 PM
To risk beating a deadhorse...

But the Tigers just traded a guy likely gone next year (Rodriguez) for a reliver. In this case it was a guy that platooned but was clearly the better of the two in the platoon. When I heard this news I was happy as to me it makes Detroit less of a threat.

Yet when the Sox are rumored to be looking to trade their starting EVERYDAY SS for a reliever (with only an unproven backup or Juan Uribe to take his place) people view this as a good thing?

If I were a Twins fan and I heard the Sox traded Cabrera for a Fansworth type pitcher, I'd be ecstatic...which itself is an arguement not to do it. If we had to part with him as part of deal to get say a Roy Halliday, well then we're talking.

UofCSoxFan
07-30-2008, 04:59 PM
I understand that hitting - specifically facing pitchers - is much harder in the MLB than it is in Cuba (or Japan). (But Alexei and Iguchi seemed to handle the transition OK.)

But what is different about fielding at shortstop in the MLB vs. fielding at shortstop in Cuba?

I'd like Daver's and Onda's take on this question.

Simple answer: The game is just faster.

Major league hitters hit the ball, on average,harder than Cuban players. When the ball is hit at you at a higher rate of speed, it reduces your range. For balls hit right at you, you have less time to react, and need better footwork to properly position yourself. I'd also venture to guess that, on average, there are faster players in the Majors than in Cuba, meaning you have less time to get your throw off.

It's the same reason why its easier to field the ball in high school than in college.

It's the same reason why it's easier to field the ball in AA than in the Majors. The game speeds up every level you progress.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 05:00 PM
I'd be OK with dealing Cabrera for a starter better than Jon Garland.

For a reliever? No thanks, unless we're getting a healthy veteran closer-quality guy to use in the 8th, bumping Dotel and Linebrink to the 6th and 7th.

And if we deal Cabrera, I'd want to trade prospects for a Randy Winn or David DeJesus (or better) to play CF and lead off.

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 05:07 PM
Simple answer: The game is just faster.

Major league hitters hit the ball, on average,harder than Cuban players. When the ball is hit at you at a higher rate of speed, it reduces your range. For balls hit right at you, you have less time to react, and need better footwork to properly position yourself. I'd also venture to guess that, on average, there are faster players in the Majors than in Cuba, meaning you have less time to get your throw off.

It's the same reason why its easier to field the ball in high school than in college.

It's the same reason why it's easier to field the ball in AA than in the Majors. The game speeds up every level you progress.

OK, so there might be a slight reduction in range due to the speed of the batted ball, but I'd also bet that the average Cuban player is a faster runner than the average MLB player. Let me explain. While a guy like Carl Crawford or Juan Pierre most likely would be faster than almost any Cuban player, you almost certainly don't have many really slow guys like Paul Konerko and David Ortiz and Dmitri Young on the Cuban teams.

If you were talking about the 1960s - 1980s, when speed was king in the MLB, then I'd agree. But MLB is a power game now and the average speed of the average player has declined significantly (things may be chaging now, though).

gr8mexico
07-30-2008, 05:19 PM
OK, so there might be a slight reduction in range due to the speed of the batted ball, but I'd also bet that the average Cuban player is a faster runner than the average MLB player. Let me explain. While a guy like Carl Crawford or Juan Pierre most likely would be faster than almost any Cuban player, you almost certainly don't have many really slow guys like Paul Konerko and David Ortiz and Dmitri Young on the Cuban teams.

If you were talking about the 1960s - 1980s, when speed was king in the MLB, then I'd agree. But MLB is a power game now and the average speed of the average player has declined significantly (things may be chaging now, though).
How are you sure that the AVG player in Cuba is fast. You do know there are only 16 teams in CUBA right. Have you ever seen Livan Hernandez, Yunieski Betancourt, Jose Contreras, Kendry Morales, Brayan Pena these guys are big. They Also have big guys in Cuba there Home Run king is a huge a guy.

PhillipsBubba
07-30-2008, 05:47 PM
Dismantled? C'mon man. The team needs a leadoff hitter, probably one more starter and bullpen arm, and a way to dump Konerko's contract. Not exactly an overhaul.

No way they bring back Thome, Cabrera, Contreras, maybe even say good by to Dye...Uribe will be gone along with Crede...the underachieving Vazquez will be shopped to make room for Lance Broadway, Kyle McCulloch and matybe even Aaron Poreda...

Don't fall in love with these guys (like a Cub fan)...its time to make way for some young, hopeful talent

Frater Perdurabo
07-30-2008, 06:23 PM
No way they bring back Thome, Cabrera, Contreras, maybe even say good by to Dye...Uribe will be gone along with Crede...the underachieving Vazquez will be shopped to make room for Lance Broadway, Kyle McCulloch and matybe even Aaron Poreda...

Don't fall in love with these guys (like a Cub fan)...its time to make way for some young, hopeful talent

This offseason, I see 3B, CF, starting pitcher and set-up reliever as the needs. I know it's selling low, but I'd like to move PK and Contreras to free up cash, and offer up Fields, Masset and virtually any prospect to help fill these holes.

In the meantime, at the deadline, I'd like to see them find a leadoff hitting CF and a set-up reliever or starter.

munchman33
07-30-2008, 06:24 PM
No way they bring back Thome, Cabrera, Contreras, maybe even say good by to Dye...Uribe will be gone along with Crede...the underachieving Vazquez will be shopped to make room for Lance Broadway, Kyle McCulloch and matybe even Aaron Poreda...

Don't fall in love with these guys (like a Cub fan)...its time to make way for some young, hopeful talent


Listen bub, no one wants sweeping changes around here more than me. But we're talking about the trade deadline, not the offseason. Thome, Crede, Dye, and our rotation guys will all be here at least until the end of the season.

kittle42
07-30-2008, 06:38 PM
Listen bub, no one wants sweeping changes around here more than me. But we're talking about the trade deadline, not the offseason. Thome, Crede, Dye, and our rotation guys will all be here at least until the end of the season.

He meant after the season, despite the theme of the thread.

Domeshot17
07-30-2008, 07:03 PM
Odds are nothing happens, too many things going against us to make a move. We have probably the worst farm system in the major leagues, We need help from a star, so its not like some Geoff Blum guy is going to help and Kenny is more an offseason guy than a July deadline guy. This time tomorrow we will have the same 25 guys as this time to day.

thomas35forever
07-30-2008, 09:17 PM
Trade not likely:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080730&content_id=3227001&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Domeshot17
07-30-2008, 09:25 PM
good, Im glad we are not going to overpay for something that won't make a big impact. You just hope to keep winning this year, and build on it next.

MCHSoxFan
07-30-2008, 09:35 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080730&content_id=3227001&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I posted it here NOT in the deadline thread because it may get over-looked.

CLR01
07-30-2008, 09:44 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080730&content_id=3227001&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I posted it here NOT in the deadline thread because it may get over-looked.

SO be it then.

Madvora
07-30-2008, 09:46 PM
Trade not likely:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080730&content_id=3227001&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
I don't like hearing that. If there's nothing you can do, then there's nothing you can do, but this team could definitely use a little help.