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Viva Medias B's
07-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Discuss

Domeshot17
07-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Gave it to them

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 02:55 PM
It happens. We lost. The game thread was an embarrassment. I can't believe people actually don't want Thome here past this season.

cburns
07-27-2008, 02:55 PM
Could easily have the bases loaded with nobody out in the top of the 9th. Having said that, I'll take two out of three against the Tigers in Detroit any day.

rustysurf83
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Very easily could have lost all three, I have lost all faith in Javy. Lets get the Twins this week.

Frankfan4life
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
This was a winnable game. Javy stunk, plain and simple. Let's get at least 2 out of 3 in Minny.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Rodney gave us a chance in the 9th and we decided to chase.

AnkleSox
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Well I'm glad I can still go enjoy the day in beautiful Chicago while those obnoxious moron fans have to go out into the cesspool of Detroit.

gobears1987
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
It happens. We lost. The game thread was an embarrassment. I can't believe people actually don't want Thome here past this season.
The game thread was indeed an embarrassment. Nothing new there though.

Three straight ball 4s were swung at. That was pretty poor there.

whitesox4eva
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
funny how we win the games we are not suppose to and lose they games we are suppose to win -.-

chisoxmike
07-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Can't put the nail in the coffin. Offense blew. Big game Javy...

AnkleSox
07-27-2008, 02:57 PM
This was a winnable game. Javy stunk, plain and simple. Let's get at least 2 out of 3 in Minny.

Preferably 3 out of 4.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 02:57 PM
This was a winnable game. Javy stunk, plain and simple. Let's get at least 2 out of 3 in Minny.

4 game series, but I will still be happy with 2 wins.

Brian26
07-27-2008, 02:57 PM
Vazquez sometimes reminds me of Kip Wells. Javy's got ten times the talent that Wells ever had, but they both look the same out there pissing in their pants on the mound in big game situations.

DSpivack
07-27-2008, 02:58 PM
It happens. We lost. The game thread was an embarrassment. I can't believe people actually don't want Thome here past this season.

Want him or not, he'll be here next season. He only needs something like 180 more plate appearances for next year's option to kick in.

Domeshot17
07-27-2008, 02:58 PM
what bothers me most, we, again, had a chance to BURY the Tigers, 8.5 games out at this point is a big difference from 6.5. Javy was awful as he has been for about 2 months now, the offense was lifeless, Cabrera, AJ, Konerko, Swish et. all. I love the talent on this team, but we seem to lack that Killer Instinct, we do not finish very well.

white sox bill
07-27-2008, 02:58 PM
The second I realized PK was coming to bat in the 8th RISP I kept saying "NO NO NO, anyone but Paulie, get someone out of the bullpen to bat PLEASE!"

BeviBall!
07-27-2008, 02:58 PM
Paulie's gonna turn it on at any moment you guys. Just wait and see.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 02:59 PM
Vazquez sometimes reminds me of Kip Wells. Javy's got ten times the talent that Wells ever had, but they both look the same out there pissing in their pants on the mound in big game situations.
This kind of **** is ridiculous. Javy didn't have his best stuff today. It happens over 162 games. Saying he's got a pants-pissing problem is the equivalent of calling Swisher a tool because he swung at a bad pitch (hat tip: btrain).

Brian26
07-27-2008, 02:59 PM
Can't put the nail in the coffin. Offense blew. Big game Javy...

Big Game Javy, indeed. If the ALDS started tomorrow, I'd have a hard-time envisioning Vazquez starting before Game 4, and god forbid we would be down two games to one going in.

Frankfan4life
07-27-2008, 02:59 PM
Preferably 3 out of 4.Oops! You're right.

jlim
07-27-2008, 03:00 PM
That hack Swish took to strike out in the 9th was awful. Even the Tigers announcers were talking about how ridiculously long his swing was going up against a guy throwing 99mph.

btrain929
07-27-2008, 03:00 PM
It happens. We lost. The game thread was an embarrassment. I can't believe people actually don't want Thome here past this season.

Sit him down and say we want him back, but 13 million is ridiculous. Have him rework his option ala Uribe this offseason. We'll pay him 8 million a year until he retires. I doubt at this point of his career, he's gonna want to bounce around from team to team to make an extra million or two. You know he won't receive no 11-12 million dollar deal on the FA market.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:00 PM
Could easily have the bases loaded with nobody out in the top of the 9th. Having said that, I'll take two out of three against the Tigers in Detroit any day.

Agreed. I'm fine with 2-3. This is not the Tigers of April.

Brian26
07-27-2008, 03:00 PM
This kind of **** is ridiculous. Javy didn't have his best stuff today. It happens over 162 games. Saying he's got a pants-pissing problem is the equivalent of calling Swisher a tool because he swung at a bad pitch (hat tip: btrain).

Do you need me to start listing the games? I don't even have to look them up on retrosheet. You can start in May of 06 with that Friday night home game against Toronto.

CubKilla
07-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Glad Vazquez isn't facing MIN. I've had enough of him. Nintendo-stuff but .500 lifetime for a reason.

DSpivack
07-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Sit him down and say we want him back, but 13 million is ridiculous. Have him rework his option ala Uribe this offseason. We'll pay him 8 million a year until he retires. I doubt at this point of his career, he's gonna want to bounce around from team to team to make an extra million or two. You know he won't receive no 11-12 million dollar deal on the FA market.

The option, barring injury, will likely automatically kick in.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Do you need me to start listing the games? I don't even have to look them up on retrosheet. You can start in May of 06 with that Friday night home game against Toronto.
Blah blah blah. Perception vs. reality. This shtick is tired. Javy will never get the credit he deserves.

Jim Shorts
07-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Especially after the 8th, our guys should have had the bats on their shoulders. Swish and Alexei need to run laps for their attempts in the 9th

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:01 PM
I think I just had an anyurism screaming at these stupid ****s for swinging at ball four so far out of the strike zone.

And what ever happened to making a new pitcher, be it a starter or a reliever, throw a strike before swinging? Kangaroo court anybody?

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:02 PM
Sit him down and say we want him back, but 13 million is ridiculous. Have him rework his option ala Uribe this offseason. We'll pay him 8 million a year until he retires. I doubt at this point of his career, he's gonna want to bounce around from team to team to make an extra million or two. You know he won't receive no 11-12 million dollar deal on the FA market.
His production this season is easily worth that.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:02 PM
Discuss

Javy sucked as usual. Our hitters forgot how to take a pitch. Especially the 9th inning. OC and AJ went swing happy. Bad game overall. Oh well, at least we won the series.

white sox bill
07-27-2008, 03:02 PM
The good news we are still in first
Minn still 2.5 gb
We aren't the north siders

Soxman219
07-27-2008, 03:02 PM
Hey, we said we needed 2 out of 3 in Detriot, that's what we got. Besides, the rest of our games against the Tigers are at the Cell so no worries. We actually have a great chance to sweep the Twins. Just think if we sweep them, 7.5 game lead.

AnkleSox
07-27-2008, 03:03 PM
Blah blah blah. Perception vs. reality. This shtick is tired. Javy will never get the credit he deserves.

How much credit does a mediocre, inconsistent starting pitcher who continually fails during pennant races really deserve? I love when I see him go 8 inning with no earned runs and 10 strikeouts, but he doesn't seem to want to do that when it matters.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:03 PM
Glad Vazquez isn't facing MIN. I've had enough of him. Nintendo-stuff but .500 lifetime for a reason.

Near Nolan Ryan one game, Danny Wright the next.

CubKilla
07-27-2008, 03:03 PM
Javy will never get the credit he deserves.

Enlighten me. Please.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:03 PM
Javy sucked as usual.

:rolleyes:

October26
07-27-2008, 03:03 PM
I'm proud of our White Sox for not giving up in this game. They battled but a win was not to be today. Even though Javy was bad he did pitch 7 innings today which helped to rest the Sox bullpen for the upcoming Twins series.

Of course I wanted the Sox to sweep the Tigers today, but I'll 2 out of 3 wins at Comerica. :cool:

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:04 PM
How much credit does a mediocre, inconsistent starting pitcher who continually fails during pennant races really deserve? I love when I see him go 8 inning with no earned runs and 10 strikeouts, but he doesn't seem to want to do that when it matters.
Bull****. Evaluating him by this "big game" outlook is ridiculous and subjective.

chisoxmike
07-27-2008, 03:04 PM
How much credit does a mediocre, inconsistent starting pitcher who continually fails during pennant races really deserve? I love when I see him go 8 inning with no earned runs and 10 strikeouts, but he doesn't seem to want to do that when it matters.

Exactly. If the Sox make the playoffs I wouldn't want him pitching the first three games of a series.

Brian26
07-27-2008, 03:04 PM
Blah blah blah. Perception vs. reality. This shtick is tired. Javy will never get the credit he deserves.

I'll give credit to Javy for being a terrific innings-eater.

His strikeout total looks sexy, but its meaningless.

The guy has amazing stuff while carrying now close to a 5.00 ERA and can't win a big-game to save his life.

SoxGirl4Life
07-27-2008, 03:05 PM
Hey, we said we needed 2 out of 3 in Detriot, that's what we got. Besides, the rest of our games against the Tigers are at the Cell so no worries. We actually have a great chance to sweep the Twins. Just think if we sweep them, 7.5 game lead.


I like your optimism. I agree we needed 2/3 from the Tigers. I'll be happy with a split in Min. Don't go out worse than we went in.

And Javy had a poor outing, but he did save the bullpen for that Deathdome series.

Domeshot17
07-27-2008, 03:05 PM
This kind of **** is ridiculous. Javy didn't have his best stuff today. It happens over 162 games. Saying he's got a pants-pissing problem is the equivalent of calling Swisher a tool because he swung at a bad pitch (hat tip: btrain).

This is a joke, Javy is the opposite of Freddy Garcia, Freddy could stink and pitch his brains out in a big game, Javy can't win when it matters.

Look at his career stats, he was great on a bad Montreal team. We went to the Yankees, and was terrible. He went to AZ and was equally bad, he came here, was terrible the year we needed him to get to the playoffs, and good in a year that did not matter.

This year, the 3 biggest series we have had, the ones that felt like a playoff atmosphere, was this series and the 2 vs the Cubs. He got lit up bad in all 3. In the playoffs he has 3 starts with an ERA over 9.

Tell me again how he isn't a mental midget when it matters?

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:05 PM
what bothers me most, we, again, had a chance to BURY the Tigers, 8.5 games out at this point is a big difference from 6.5. Javy was awful as he has been for about 2 months now, the offense was lifeless, Cabrera, AJ, Konerko, Swish et. all. I love the talent on this team, but we seem to lack that Killer Instinct, we do not finish very well.

Javy can't pitch on the road lately. That's been the trend.

MCHSoxFan
07-27-2008, 03:05 PM
Gave it to them

What's worse is we could have STILL won it in the 8th and 9th innings!!! :(: Well, we did take 2/3. The Twins won, however. I do feel good about that series because Mark and John start/end it and Richard should so better.

LET'S GET EM SOX!!!

whitesox901
07-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Rodney brought the stuff today, The 2 leadoff walks came around to score and got Javy, Won the series, go get the Twinkies at the Garbage Bag

Second-Half Slide: 5-4

Heffalump
07-27-2008, 03:06 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.

TDog
07-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Gave it to them

By playing poor defense? Today's game was the first game in the series in which the Sox didn't make any errors. The Tigers knocked around Vazquez just as they knocked around Floyd and Danks. The Sox had the tying runs on in the eighth with two out. It's unfortunate the Sox didn't pull out another thrilling win, but it isn't going to happen every day, especially on the road. In the series, the only hit with two outs and runners in scoring postion was Thome's bases-loaded single. The Sox won two on-run games in this series after failing in those situation. The Sox had fewer of those situations today than they had either Friday or Saturday.

Really, the Sox had a chance to sweep with some monster heroics that didn't happen (as they did Wednesday, Friday and even to a lesser extent Saturday), Without those heroics, they they would have been swept and would be looking at a losing streak heading into the Metrodome.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:06 PM
I'll give credit to Javy for being a terrific innings-eater.

His strikeout total looks sexy, but its meaningless.

The guy has amazing stuff while carrying now close to a 5.00 ERA and can't win a big-game to save his life.
Without even looking, he was solid when the rest of the rotation crumbled in August 2006.

CubKilla
07-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Exactly. If the Sox make the playoffs I wouldn't want him pitching the first three games of a series.

I'd want him pitching if he was facing the Sox. That 4.50+ ERA would translate into 8.0 IP, 4 H, 8 K's, and 0 ER's against the Sox :cool:

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:07 PM
This is a joke, Javy is the opposite of Freddy Garcia, Freddy could stink and pitch his brains out in a big game, Javy can't win when it matters.

Look at his career stats, he was great on a bad Montreal team. We went to the Yankees, and was terrible. He went to AZ and was equally bad, he came here, was terrible the year we needed him to get to the playoffs, and good in a year that did not matter.

This year, the 3 biggest series we have had, the ones that felt like a playoff atmosphere, was this series and the 2 vs the Cubs. He got lit up bad in all 3. In the playoffs he has 3 starts with an ERA over 9.

Tell me again how he isn't a mental midget when it matters?
OH MY GOD! HE DIDN'T DO WELL AGAINST THE TIGERS AND CUBS, ARGUABLY TWO OF THE BEST LINEUPS IN BASEBALL?! DFA HIM!

Corlose 15
07-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Blah blah blah. Perception vs. reality. This shtick is tired. Javy will never get the credit he deserves.

I've been a fan of Javy because he turned it around last year and started this year strong. I felt he was poised for a big year. However he's been **** for the last two months. It's not about perception or reality, it's simple fact.


http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?playerID=13432 0&statType=2

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Remember that 10 game west coast trip back in May? Where we went 7-3? I think this road trip is looking extremely similar.

3 vs. Detroit (instead of 3 vs. the Mariners, so that's an upgrade in opponent)
4 vs. Twins (The Angels are way better)
3 vs. Royals (Giants and Royals aren't so different)

We've already taken 2/3 from Detroit. We took 2/3 from Seattle too, including losing the finale in a game we easily could of won (like this one).

Now it's time to split with the Twins.

SoxGirl4Life
07-27-2008, 03:08 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.
:welcome:

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:09 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.

People tend to whine all the time. Sweeping is hard, but the White Sox lead baseball in sweeps I think.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:09 PM
I've been a fan of Javy because he turned it around last year and started this year strong. I felt he was poised for a big year. However he's been **** for the last two months. It's not about perception or reality, it's simple fact.


http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?playerID=13432 0&statType=2
It happens. He's had two bad months and that's no reason to go crazy. He also had two great months to start the season.

Domeshot17
07-27-2008, 03:10 PM
By playing poor defense? Today's game was the first game in the series in which the Sox didn't make any errors. The Tigers knocked around Vazquez just as they knocked around Floyd and Danks. The Sox had the tying runs on in the eighth with two out. It's unfortunate the Sox didn't pull out another thrilling win, but it isn't going to happen every day, especially on the road. In the series, the only hit with two outs and runners in scoring postion was Thome's bases-loaded single. The Sox won two on-run games in this series after failing in those situation. The Sox had fewer of those situations today than they had either Friday or Saturday.

Really, the Sox had a chance to sweep with some monster heroics that didn't happen (as they did Wednesday, Friday and even to a lesser extent Saturday), Without those heroics, they they would have been swept and would be looking at a losing streak heading into the Metrodome.

I agree we did better than we should have this series, but come on. Guys in scoring position, AJ is swining at the first pitch popping up, Cabrera with a few bad at bats with guys on, Konerko couldn't catch up to the fast ball, and worst of all, down 2, we could have had the bases loaded and NO OUTS, and we had 3 ks instead. This was the game int he series we blew, not them. Add to fact Vazquez has been throwing meatballs up there for 2 months, its just one of the games where the Loss doesnt hurt as bad as how it happened.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:10 PM
It happens. He's had two bad months and that's no reason to go crazy. He also had two great months to start the season.

I wish we can have the good Javy back. But it's looking real gloomy for him.

CubKilla
07-27-2008, 03:11 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.

I don't think people here are as PO'ed with taking 2 of 3 from a Tigers team that is playing better now than a few months ago as much as they are PO'ed at watching Vazquez crap himself AGAIN in a big series.

ArkanSox
07-27-2008, 03:11 PM
I saw the last couple of innings, and was impressed that Thome went the other way for the RBIs. Frustrating ninth: ball four, ball four, ball four available, but as hard as Rodney throws, I guess all three batters were geared up and in automatic swing mode. Sing the song, Meatloaf.

October26
07-27-2008, 03:11 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.

Yes. You are the voice of reason - thank you! I was thrilled to see the Sox win the first two games of the series against the Tigers.

As we look ahead to the Twins series, I hope for the Sox to battle as they did against the Tigers.

Go Sox!

CubKilla
07-27-2008, 03:12 PM
It happens. He's had two bad months and that's no reason to go crazy. He also had two great months to start the season.

Wow. That's about .500. Who would have thunk it? :rolleyes:

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:13 PM
It happens. He's had two bad months and that's no reason to go crazy. He also had two great months to start the season.

You try having two bad months at work and see how that works out for you.

He is 7-9. Our two kids have better records. If it wasn't for Jose, Javy would be our #5 guy.

Even when he "pitches well" (Monday), he gives up too many home runs and gets the loss.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2008, 03:13 PM
Vazquez spits the bit again. How many in a row has he lost now?

Million dollar arm....ten cent brain.

Need at least a split in the House of Horrors.

Lip

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:13 PM
I wish we can have the good Javy back. But it's looking real gloomy for him.

From mid-Arpil to mid-May, Buehrle was 0-4 with a 5.26 ERA. It's looking gloomy!

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:14 PM
From mid-Arpil to mid-May, Buehrle was 0-4 with a 5.26 ERA. It's looking gloomy!

It did look gloomy. However, Mark Buehrle is not the same kind of pitcher as Vazquez.

Speaking of Mark, he really needs to shut down those Twinkies tomorrow.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:14 PM
You try having two bad months at work and see how that works out for you.

He is 7-9. Our two kids have better records. If it wasn't for Jose, Javy would be our #5 guy.

Even when he "pitches well" (Monday), he gives up too many home runs and gets the loss.
Evaluating pitchers on their W/L record is ludicrous.

Lip,

You are 100% class. Javier obviously has no brains because he didn't pitch well today.

thomas35forever
07-27-2008, 03:15 PM
I came in here expecting the usual "bench Paulie" crap, but now I'm reading posts that make it seem like Javy just lost Game 7 of the WS. Calm down, people. Losses are gonna happen. If we just win two in the HumpDome, we'll still be in first. I'm using the overused phrase "two outta three ain't bad."

Yes, Javy sucks right now. We realize that. But don't act like this game was make or break for this season. Did you forget the Tigers could easily be dangerously close to us if we had lost two?

Domeshot17
07-27-2008, 03:16 PM
Wow. That's about .500. Who would have thunk it? :rolleyes:

Some people will never get it. All year we cry over Contreras and how much he is costing us, well he is 7-6 with a 4.60 era. Javy is now 7-9 with a 4.73 era. At 32 years old, with the year he had last and the money he makes, he should be taking pressure off Gavin and Danks at this time of the year, not putting more on them to carry his ass too.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 03:17 PM
I wish we can have the good Javy back. But it's looking real gloomy for him.

He lost a complete game to Oakland, sucked in KC, pitched 7 innings 3 run ball in Texas and lost and now today's outing. Why does it look gloomy? 2 good starts and 2 bad starts in July.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:17 PM
Evaluating pitchers on their W/L record is ludicrous.




And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!

SoxGirl4Life
07-27-2008, 03:17 PM
I'm hoping Cleveland is coming to play for the Tiger's next series.

KC just laid down for them last week. Didn't even look like the same KC team that beat the stuffing out of us last weekend.

HangWiffum
07-27-2008, 03:17 PM
Paulie's gonna turn it on at any moment you guys. Just wait and see.

Funniest quote of the year

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:18 PM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!
Okay. Any day of the week.

SoxGirl4Life
07-27-2008, 03:18 PM
He lost a complete game to Oakland, sucked in KC, pitched 7 innings 3 run ball in Texas and lost and now today's outing. Why does it look gloomy? 2 good starts and 2 bad starts in July.


Because people need someone to blame. Unless the Sox go 162-0, there is always something to complain about.

I'd rather lose this way than have Bobby blow a save.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 03:19 PM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!

I will take the first guy's team, and player B. You are being ridiculous.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Speaking of Mark, he really needs to shut down those Twinkies tomorrow.

If he doesn't, I anxiously await the posts claiming he is done, his extension was a waste, etc. (not saying you will do that but you know there are people out there that will).

thomas35forever
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!
What?! That's ridiculous. Alright, I'll take a guy who gives up far more runs thus putting pressure on the offense to score more. A guy like the second one you mentioned just has bad luck because the bats aren't backing him up. For the former to even be possible, the offense would have to score like crazy to back him up. *****.:rolleyes:

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
I came in here expecting the usual "bench Paulie" crap, but now I'm reading posts that make it seem like Javy just lost Game 7 of the WS. Calm down, people. Losses are gonna happen. If we just win two in the HumpDome, we'll still be in first. I'm using the overused phrase "two outta three ain't bad."

Yes, Javy sucks right now. We realize that. But don't act like this game was make or break for this season. Did you forget the Tigers could easily be dangerously close to us if we had lost two?

Paulie had a nice AB today and ended up with a hit.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:21 PM
What?! That's ridiculous. Alright, I'll take a guy who gives up far more runs thus putting pressure on the offense to score more. A guy like the second one you mentioned just has bad luck because the bats aren't backing him up. For the former to even be possible, the offense would have to score like crazy to back him up. *****.:rolleyes:

Bill Smith, is that you?

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:21 PM
Okay. Any day of the week.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit into your fantasy baseball league world.

Soxman219
07-27-2008, 03:21 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.

Exactly. Only I would prefer a sweep over the Twins to get some room.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry if that doesn't fit into your fantasy baseball league world.
Clearly I live in a fantasy world. Perhaps in your galaxy pitchers are rewarded for higher ERAs.

Brian26
07-27-2008, 03:22 PM
Evaluating pitchers on their W/L record is ludicrous.

Lip,

You are 100% class. Javier obviously has no brains because he didn't pitch well today.

I didn't take Lip's comment as classless. What he's saying is a summation of watching Vazquez pitch for almost three years now with the Sox. Watch the games. Vazquez makes poor pitches with RISP and continuously cannot pitch over his mistakes. It's frustrating to watch because he's got phenomenal talent (moreso than so many other Sox pitchers over the last decade), but he gets killed because he can't hit his spots.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:23 PM
BTW, I forgot to mention this.

Javy DOES NOT LEARN FROM HIS MISTAKES! He threw a hanging slider to Marcus Thames. Thames hurt Javy last time out by hitting one of those for a three run homer. This time, he hangs one to him again. Thing is, WHY EVEN THROW IT TO HIM? He obviously can't get to the fastball high and in and you go and throw a slider to speed up his bat? He's literally like Kerry Wood. Why is Wood a .500 pitcher? The exact same reason why Javy is a .500 pitcher of course...they're brainless at times.

I don't know who called the pitch, but that's terrible pitch selection.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:24 PM
I didn't take Lip's comment as classless. What he's saying is a summation of watching Vazquez pitch for almost three years now with the Sox. Watch the games. Vazquez makes poor pitches with RISP and continuously cannot pitch over his mistakes. It's frustrating to watch because he's got phenomenal talent (moreso than so many other Sox pitchers over the last decade), but he gets killed because he can't hit his spots.
An inability to hit spots is not at all related to a lack of intelligence.

TDog
07-27-2008, 03:24 PM
I agree we did better than we should have this series, but come on. Guys in scoring position, AJ is swining at the first pitch popping up, Cabrera with a few bad at bats with guys on, Konerko couldn't catch up to the fast ball, and worst of all, down 2, we could have had the bases loaded and NO OUTS, and we had 3 ks instead. This was the game int he series we blew, not them. Add to fact Vazquez has been throwing meatballs up there for 2 months, its just one of the games where the Loss doesnt hurt as bad as how it happened.

It starts with the starting pitching. The Sox haven't had a good start since Buehrle, who needs to come up big Monday. They still won three of the four games because of the offense.

As for complaining about hitters "swining at ball four," I don't do that because I've seen lots of guys called out on strikes on pitches that looked to be out of the strike zone. One of the reason you swing at first-pitch strikes that you think you can hit (great hitters fail two-thirds of the time, of course) is so that you don't put yourself in a situation where you are at the mercy of bad umpiring.

You can't say the Sox gave up in the ninth inning just because Rodney struck out the side. Swisher is probably the best player on the Sox when it comes to walking with a 3-2 count. Ramirez may be the best two-strike hitter on the team and Uribe battled through his at bat. The Sox had three games where they overcame bad starting pitching to win. Today they didn't. The glass isn't half-empty. It's three-quarters of the way full.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:25 PM
What?! That's ridiculous. Alright, I'll take a guy who gives up far more runs thus putting pressure on the offense to score more. A guy like the second one you mentioned just has bad luck because the bats aren't backing him up. For the former to even be possible, the offense would have to score like crazy to back him up. *****.:rolleyes:

Hasn't anyone here ever heard of exaggerating to make a point? Grebec said that evaluating a pitcher on his win loss record is ludicris. My point is that bottom line, that is what counts. Given a choice between a pitcher who is above .500, and a pitcher who is below .500 with similar length careers, I'll take the guy above .500. Grebec can take his buddy Javy.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:25 PM
I'm sorry if that doesn't fit into your fantasy baseball league world.

Get real. Derek Lowe had more wins than Pedro on the 2003 Red Sox but which pitcher would you rather have on your team?

DaveIsHere
07-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Paulie had a nice AB today and ended up with a hit.


He also had a chance for a cluthc hit in the 8th, typically went down 0-2 and the grounded out weakly.

I was hoping he was going to come through, but I am done with hoping as August is around the corner. Would be nice if he picked it up for the final stretch; though I feel that is doubtful.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:27 PM
It starts with the starting pitching. The Sox haven't had a good start since Buehrle, who needs to come up big Monday. They still won three of the four games because of the offense.

As for complaining about hitters "swining at ball four," I don't do that because I've seen lots of guys called out on strikes on pitches that looked to be out of the strike zone. One of the reason you swing at first-pitch strikes that you think you can hit (great hitters fail two-thirds of the time, of course) is so that you don't put yourself in a situation where you are at the mercy of bad umpiring.

You can't say the Sox gave up in the ninth inning just because Rodney struck out the side. Swisher is probably the best player on the Sox when it comes to walking with a 3-2 count. Ramirez may be the best two-strike hitter on the team and Uribe battled through his at bat. The Sox had three games where they overcame bad starting pitching to win. Today they didn't. The glass isn't half-empty. It's three-quarters of the way full.
Ramirez's hitting line with two strikes: 170 .193 .226

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:27 PM
An inability to hit spots is not at all related to a lack of intelligence.

It relates to his concentration and at times, pitch selection. Both that have to do with the mind.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:28 PM
Clearly I live in a fantasy world. Perhaps in your galaxy pitchers are rewarded for higher ERAs.

Javy = Kerry

Brian26
07-27-2008, 03:28 PM
An inability to hit spots is not at all related to a lack of intelligence.

You just took the last part of my post out of context.

Does this relate to a lack of intelligence?

"Vazquez makes poor pitches with RISP and continuously cannot pitch over his mistakes."

It could, or it could be a combination of lack of smarts on the mound and inability to not piss in his pants in a pressure situation.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:28 PM
Hasn't anyone here ever heard of exaggerating to make a point? Grebec said that evaluating a pitcher on his win loss record is ludicris. My point is that bottom line, that is what counts. Given a choice between a pitcher who is above .500, and a pitcher who is below .500 with similar length careers, I'll take the guy above .500. Grebec can take his buddy Javy.


I'll take the guy with better peripherals. Pitchers are often at the mercy of their offense.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:28 PM
He also had a chance for a cluthc hit in the 8th, typically went down 0-2 and the grounded out weakly.

I was hoping he was going to come through, but I am done with hoping as August is around the corner. Would be nice if he picked it up for the final stretch; though I feel that is doubtful.

At this point, you hope he makes progress bit by bit.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
You just took the last part of my post out of context.

Does this relate to a lack of intelligence?

"Vazquez makes poor pitches with RISP and continuously cannot pitch over his mistakes."

It could, or it could be a combination of lack of smarts on the mound and inability to not piss in his pants in a pressure situation.
It was more a knock on LIP for referring to Javy as a ten cent brain.

thomas35forever
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
Hasn't anyone here ever heard of exaggerating to make a point? Grebec said that evaluating a pitcher on his win loss record is ludicris. My point is that bottom line, that is what counts. Given a choice between a pitcher who is above .500, and a pitcher who is below .500 with similar length careers, I'll take the guy above .500. Grebec can take his buddy Javy.


The problem is you said you'd take a guy with a higher ERA. Sorry if I missed your point about exaggeration. Another thing. John Danks had a worse record than indicated because he had one of the best ERAs in baseball at the All-Star break. I suppose you think it's fair then that he wasn't chosen. And don't try spewing that "but the ASG lasted forever" crap.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
BTW, I forgot to mention this.

Javy DOES NOT LEARN FROM HIS MISTAKES! He threw a hanging slider to Marcus Thames. Thames hurt Javy last time out by hitting one of those for a three run homer. This time, he hangs one to him again. Thing is, WHY EVEN THROW IT TO HIM? He obviously can't get to the fastball high and in and you go and throw a slider to speed up his bat? He's literally like Kerry Wood. Why is Wood a .500 pitcher? The exact same reason why Javy is a .500 pitcher of course...they're brainless at times.

I don't know who called the pitch, but that's terrible pitch selection.

Thames hit a high fastball out today.

gobears1987
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
I will take the first guy's team, and player B. You are being ridiculous.
I'd take player B too. He sounds like Joel Horlen in the 60s on the Sox. An ace pitcher would would win 20 games if he had any type of run support, but has a losing record because he loses games by scores of 2-1.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
Javy = Kerry
Kerry Wood, when healthy, was a hell of a starting pitcher.

VenturaFan23
07-27-2008, 03:31 PM
I guess the Sox needed to catch the plane to Minnesota at the top of the 9th there? :dunno: That was brutal and so was Javy.

TDog
07-27-2008, 03:31 PM
He also had a chance for a cluthc hit in the 8th, typically went down 0-2 and the grounded out weakly.

I was hoping he was going to come through, but I am done with hoping as August is around the corner. Would be nice if he picked it up for the final stretch; though I feel that is doubtful.

Josh Fields came up twice Saturday with men in scoring position and two outs and he failed both times. In fact, the only two-out, runners in scoring position hit the Sox got all weekend was the bases-loaded single by Thome. The list of Sox hitters who failed in that situation is a long one.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:32 PM
The problem is you said you'd take a guy with a higher ERA. Sorry if I missed your point about exaggeration. Another thing. John Danks had a worse record than indicated because he had one of the best ERAs in baseball at the All-Star break. I suppose you think it's fair then that he wasn't chosen. And don't try spewing that "but the ASG lasted forever" crap.

I said I'd take the guy with the higher ERA more wins.

I am a Sox fan. I would have liked to have seen Danks get selected. So I can't answer that fairly. Besides, Danks still had/has a record over .500.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:35 PM
I said I'd take the guy with the higher ERA more wins.

I am a Sox fan. I would have liked to have seen Danks get selected. So I can't answer that fairly. Besides, Danks still had/has a record over .500.
I don't understand how a pitcher can be held responsible for a lack of offense.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:36 PM
Thames hit a high fastball out today.

That was a hanging slider that didn't do anything. That was not a fastball, if it was, it would of had more velocity.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Besides, Danks still had/has a record over .500.

"Had" a record over .500? What does that have to do with anything? Javy had a career record over .500 in Arizona.

:?:

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Kerry Wood, when healthy, was a hell of a starting pitcher.

That's why his highest win total was only 13...

chisoxmike
07-27-2008, 03:38 PM
Kerry Wood, when healthy, was a hell of a starting pitcher.

Meh. I wish I could live off one great moment in my life for the rest of my career.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:38 PM
That's why his highest win total was only 13...
Because he played on horrendous teams. Why is this such a difficult concept?

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:39 PM
Meh. I wish I could live off one great moment in my life for the rest of my career.
When he was healthy he was very good. I am not even looking at '98.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:40 PM
Because he played on horrendous teams. Why is this such a difficult concept?

The 2003 Cubs were definitely horrendous...

He went 13-11 that year.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:40 PM
I don't understand how a pitcher can be held responsible for a lack of offense.

He can be held responsible for putting his team into an early hole...case in point Monday night.

I don't know why we are having this arguement. Javy is a .500 lifetime pitcher. He is not the god some people are making him out to be. He is an average pitcher who strikes a lot of guys out. He is far from an "ace."

When he is on, he gets people excited. When he is off, people want him cut. Consistently inconsistent.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 03:41 PM
That was a hanging slider that didn't do anything. That was not a fastball, if it was, it would of had more velocity.

I am pretty sure that was a high fastball.

Edit: I just watched the gameday replay and it was 91 on the gun.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:41 PM
He can be held responsible for putting his team into an early hole...case in point Monday night.

I don't know why we are having this arguement. Javy is a .500 lifetime pitcher. He is not the god some people are making him out to be. He is an average pitcher who strikes a lot of guys out. He is far from an "ace."
And I never said any of those things. Good reading comprehension.

DSpivack
07-27-2008, 03:41 PM
When he was healthy he was very good. I am not even looking at '98.

He was never great, good yes, but not great. His lowest ERA was 3.20, but most of the time was either in the high 3's or low 4's. That's above-average, but certainly not elite.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:42 PM
The 2003 Cubs were definitely horrendous...

He went 13-11 that year.

Wood won 14 in 2003.

:shrug:

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:42 PM
The 2003 Cubs were definitely horrendous...

He went 13-11 that year.
He had a 3.20 ERA, pitched 211.0 innings and struck out 266 batters. How much better does he need to pitch?

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:43 PM
I am pretty sure that was a high fastball.

Stoney said it was a slider. It looked like a slider to me.

turners56
07-27-2008, 03:43 PM
Wood won 14 in 2003.

:shrug:

Eh 14-11 then. Not much better.

TDog
07-27-2008, 03:44 PM
Ramirez's hitting line with two strikes: 170 .193 .226

That is skewed towards his problems early in the season when he looked overmatched. Over the last month, he has probably been the best two-strike hitter on the Sox. Quentin and Dye have been getting two-strike hits, but nobody is better as a two-strike hitter. What makes Swisher such a bad two-strike hitter is that he takes so many hittable pitches to get to two strikes. The difficulty in hitting with two strikes is one reason many hitters don't take more pitches and swing at so many first-pitch fastballs.

Hitting isn't as easy as it looks.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:44 PM
Eh 14-11 then. Not much better.
...along with a 3.20 ERA, 266 strikeouts and 211 innings. Pretty damn good.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 03:45 PM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!

That's ridiculous. W/L records are highly dependent on the rest of the team.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:47 PM
That is skewed towards his problems early in the season when he looked overmatched. Over the last month, he has probably been the best two-strike hitter on the Sox. Quentin and Dye have been getting two-strike hits, but nobody is better as a two-strike hitter. What makes Swisher such a bad two-strike hitter is that he takes so many hittable pitches to get to two strikes. The difficulty in hitting with two strikes is one reason many hitters don't take more pitches and swing at so many first-pitch fastballs.

Hitting isn't as easy as it looks.
I'll check and see how he's done with two strikes on him the last two months.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 03:49 PM
...along with a 3.20 ERA, 266 strikeouts and 211 innings. Pretty damn good.

You are correct, sir.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 03:50 PM
...along with a 3.20 ERA, 266 strikeouts and 211 innings. Pretty damn good.

Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum are bad pitchers because they didn't get many wins last year.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:51 PM
That's ridiculous. W/L records are highly dependent on the rest of the team.

:bandance:And when the season is over with, and your team finishes out the playoffs by 2 games, you aren't going to say, "if X had just been able to pull off these two games and finished above .500 we'd have made the playoffs"?

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 03:51 PM
:bandance:And when the season is over with, and your team finishes out the playoffs by 2 games, you aren't going to say, "if X had just been able to pull off these two games and finished above .500 we'd have made the playoffs"?
You don't get it.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 03:52 PM
:bandance:And when the season is over with, and your team finishes out the playoffs by 2 games, you aren't going to say, "if X had just been able to pull off these two games and finished above .500 we'd have made the playoffs"?

For surely, the pitcher is to blame in this scenario and not the offense.

:rolleyes:

DSpivack
07-27-2008, 03:53 PM
:bandance:And when the season is over with, and your team finishes out the playoffs by 2 games, you aren't going to say, "if X had just been able to pull off these two games and finished above .500 we'd have made the playoffs"?

You prefer a pitcher who gives up more runs as opposed to fewer. The guy that gives you the best chance to win is the one that gives up the fewest amount of runs.

thomas35forever
07-27-2008, 03:53 PM
:bandance:And when the season is over with, and your team finishes out the playoffs by 2 games, you aren't going to say, "if X had just been able to pull off these two games and finished above .500 we'd have made the playoffs"?
Exactly. What if those two games were quality starts that he lost because the offense didn't help him?

cheezheadsoxfan
07-27-2008, 03:57 PM
Tiger fan just told Rongey we're winning the division. Called the Garbage Dome a trampoline, LOL. Did make a point that we took 2 out of 3 without Crede who generally kills Detroit.

TDog
07-27-2008, 03:57 PM
...along with a 3.20 ERA, 266 strikeouts and 211 innings. Pretty damn good.

Strikeouts don't mean much if you don't win games. Neither does ERA. The fact that Kerry Wood had so many strikeouts and such a low ERA didn't help him win the Cubs' last game of 2003. The Cubs scored five runs -- Wood even homered in the game to drive in two of them, but he lost, unable to get through the sixth.

There are pitchers who have great stuff and win a lot of games. There are pitchers who don't and win a lot of games. There are pitchers who have great stuff and don't win a lot of games. There are a lot of those. Winning takes more than having great stuff.

MCHSoxFan
07-27-2008, 03:58 PM
You guys are nuts! We took two out of three from the red hot Tigers in their park (with all-time highs in attendance) and you are still whining? Sweeps are hard to come by, espcially on the road. No Javy, wasn't great, but he definitely wasn't pissing his pants. Some people will ALWAYS find stuff to bitch about.

On to Minny, I would be very happy with two wins to keep the status quo. More would just be sweeter.

Relax.

Thanks for posting! I feel better. Especially cause of what the Cubs/Brewers are doing. actually wasn't as mad as I usually am when we lose. At the minimum, I would like to go 4-3 against DET/MIN. Overall, a minimum of 6-4.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 03:58 PM
You prefer a pitcher who gives up more runs as opposed to fewer. The guy that gives you the best chance to win is the one that gives up the fewest amount of runs.

I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.

thomas35forever
07-27-2008, 04:00 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.


:kukoo:

Pitchers can't win without getting chances to win. Please stop posting in this thread for your own sake.

MCHSoxFan
07-27-2008, 04:00 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.




True. But, Mark said he would still be happy if he went 0-0 this season and they won every game he pitched.

DSpivack
07-27-2008, 04:00 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.



Pitchers win games, or teams do? What you're saying is that you would prefer a pitcher who would consistently give up 10 runs a game, but his team scores 11, over a pitcher who gives up 2 runs a game, but whose team scores 1. That makes no sense.

Soxman219
07-27-2008, 04:01 PM
Tiger fan just told Rongey we're winning the division. Called the Garbage Dome a trampoline, LOL. Did make a point that we took 2 out of 3 without Crede who generally kills Detroit.

For the Tigers to have a chance in this division, they must come here. The Sox own the Tigers in Chicago so I'm not afraid.

Sox It To Em
07-27-2008, 04:02 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.



Wow.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 04:02 PM
:kukoo:

Pitchers can't win without getting chances to win. Please stop posting in this thread for your own sake.

We lost, Minny won. I'd like to be going into that series with some positive momentum, not coming off a loss.

I'll go and drink some Kool-aid now.

thomas35forever
07-27-2008, 04:03 PM
We lost, Minny won. I'd like to be going into that series with some positive momentum, not coming off a loss.

I'll go and drink some Kool-aid now.
What part of "we won 2 of 3 in Detroit" do you not understand? I'd be more worried if we lost this series.

Foulke You
07-27-2008, 04:06 PM
Someone made an interesting observation about Javy earlier in this thread. It seems like he struggles with his control on the road a lot more than at home. Also, in his last 4 or 5 starts, his velocity has been up or down. I thought he looked real sharp in his last start against Texas at The Cell and he only really made one mistake to Josh Hamilton. He was popping that fastball around 93/94 and really had good location on his pitches. Today's game in Detroit, I think he only hit 90 on the gun a few times and his control was all over the place. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.:scratch:

Overall though, the Sox did what they needed to do this weekend and that is win 2 of 3 against a tough Detroit team in their ballpark. Now, we need a minimum of a split in Minny.

sox1970
07-27-2008, 04:06 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.



Then you believe in finding guys that get lucky?

The first step to consistent winning is getting quality starts.

Sox are 42-19-1 when they get a quality start--and it should be a lot better if the offense was better earlier in the season.

Sox are 17-25 when they don't get a quality start.

I'll take my chances when they actually DO get a quality start.

gobears1987
07-27-2008, 04:07 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.


I can't understand your logic.

W/L is more reflective of the team than the pitcher. Look at Joel Horlen on the Sox in the 60s. You always take the pitcher who gives up the fewest runs. All other things being equal (run support and bullpen) that pitcher will always win more games.

The pitcher can't control his run support. I guess Freddy Garcia sucked in 2004 before the trade when he had a 4-7 record with of the best ERAs in baseball.

MCHSoxFan
07-27-2008, 04:09 PM
What part of "we won 2 of 3 in Detroit" do you not understand? I'd be more worried if we lost this series.

I know, for real! Everybody was saying oh ****! We goona suck on the trip. We just won a series and almost swept the red hot Tigers. God!

soxfanreggie
07-27-2008, 04:09 PM
I think in the AL, the pitcher can only give you a chance to win. Unless he's batting, he can't knock in the runs himself. He can only pitch well enough to keep the other team to less runs than his team scores.

MCHSoxFan
07-27-2008, 04:11 PM
I think in the AL, the pitcher can only give you a chance to win. Unless he's batting, he can't knock in the runs himself. He can only pitch well enough to keep the other team to less runs than his team scores.

True. The pitcher has to keep you in the game. More times than none, a pitcher will not give up 10 runs and you help him by getting 11 or so.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 04:12 PM
What part of "we won 2 of 3 in Detroit" do you not understand? I'd be more worried if we lost this series.

Can't I spend one day on the ledge? Good Lord! :redface:

alohafri
07-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Then you believe in finding guys that get lucky?

The first step to consistent winning is getting quality starts.

Sox are 42-19-1 when they get a quality start--and it should be a lot better if the offense was better earlier in the season.

Sox are 17-25 when they don't get a quality start.

I'll take my chances when they actually DO get a quality start.

"I'd rather be lucky than good." - Arnold Palmer

KyWhiSoxFan
07-27-2008, 04:15 PM
For all the bridge jumpers ... winning two of three in Detroit when Detroit was playing well is pretty good. I'll take 2 of 3 on the road every time.

What I can't figure out is the people who say this is a game the Sox should have won. At what point did the Sox ever look like they were going to win it? Javy was not good enough today to give them a chance.

He did eat some innings, though, which is good. It helped save a thin bullpen for a big 4-game series in Minnesota. And it was great to see Thornton out there throwing well. That is a big boost to the team.

LITTLE NELL
07-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Going into this series I was hoping for 2 out of 3.
We got that so Im not going to fret to much, need to at least split up in Minny and take 2 in KC.

Lots of swinging at the 1st pitch today, maybe the boys wanted to get out of Motown ASAP on getaway day.

Chicago5oooh
07-27-2008, 04:18 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.




I don't even know where to begin. To evaluate a pitcher solely on W-L is ridiculous. ERA and WHIP are important. W-L can't tell you much unless you are looking at L's for a reliever. Get a clue Aloha......

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2008, 04:18 PM
While it would have been nice to win this one, another 3 games come off the schedule with the Twins not gaining any ground on us and Detroit actually losing a game. If we just spilt in Minny and take 2 of 3 in KC, this would be a very successful trip in my opinion.

TDog
07-27-2008, 04:20 PM
What part of "we won 2 of 3 in Detroit" do you not understand? I'd be more worried if we lost this series.

The Sox swept the Tigers during their first trip to Detroit, they were swept in their second and took two of three in the third. That's a 5-4 road record against a division rival that many expected the Sox to be chasing from a distance.

It's unfortunate the Indians gave up n the season after falling out of the race. I would much rather Sabathia had pitched against the Twins this weekend (or the Tigers in the upcoming week) than go against the Cubs for the Brewers in their big showdown.

It's too bad the Sox offense has had to carry the team lately, but I honestly don't see why people are so upset with one loss. The only Sox quality start this weekend came from Floyd, and if you look at Friday's game thread, people wanted to yank him in the third inning.

Foulke You
07-27-2008, 04:20 PM
For all the bridge jumpers ... winning two of three in Detroit when Detroit was playing well is pretty good. I'll take 2 of 3 on the road every time.

What I can't figure out is the people who say this is a game the Sox should have won. At what point did the Sox ever look like they were going to win it? Javy was not good enough today to give them a chance.

He did eat some innings, though, which is good. It helped save a thin bullpen for a big 4-game series in Minnesota. And it was great to see Thornton out there throwing well. That is a big boost to the team.
I have to agree. This one never really felt like it was in our grasp. The Tigers were pretty much in control after they took the lead. The Sox did a nice job to claw back but the 6 runs were just too much to overcome today.

You're right, I was happy to see Thornton back on that hill and firing 97mph missles again. We can overcome the loss of Linebrink but BOTH Linebrink AND Thornton would prove to be troublesome. Dotel, Jenks, and Logan are rested today for the important Twins series coming up.

UofCSoxFan
07-27-2008, 04:22 PM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!

This is so dumb. You rather have a bad pitcher that lucks into 18 wins than a good pitcher that "unlucks" into 14 losses?

Most rational people would like to have a good pitcher over a bad pitcher.

If you put the good pitcher in the bad pitcher's starts, he's probably 21-2. You put the bad pitcher in the good pitcher's starts, he's probably 0-20.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 04:24 PM
Strikeouts don't mean much if you don't win games. Neither does ERA. The fact that Kerry Wood had so many strikeouts and such a low ERA didn't help him win the Cubs' last game of 2003. The Cubs scored five runs -- Wood even homered in the game to drive in two of them, but he lost, unable to get through the sixth.

There are pitchers who have great stuff and win a lot of games. There are pitchers who don't and win a lot of games. There are pitchers who have great stuff and don't win a lot of games. There are a lot of those. Winning takes more than having great stuff.
Having a 3.20 ERA in 211.0 innings is indicative of a great season. Wins are not.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2008, 04:24 PM
I've been trying to find a former Sox pitcher who reminds me of Vazquez and I think I've come up with one.

He pitched for the Sox a shade over 25 years ago (my God has it been that long?)

He had great stuff, teased everyone by tossing some brilliant games and could control a team seemingly at will....yet he never was able to consistently put it together and eventually Roland Hemond had enough.

His name? Steve Trout.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 04:26 PM
I've been trying to find a former Sox pitcher who reminds me of Vazquez and I think I've come up with one.

He pitched for the Sox a shade over 25 years ago (my God has it been that long?)

He had great stuff, teased everyone by tossing some brilliant games and could control a team seemingly at will....yet he never was able to consistently put it together and eventually Roland Hemond had enough.

His name? Steve Trout.

Lip
He had pedestrian stuff at best. Terrible comp.

TornLabrum
07-27-2008, 04:30 PM
I'll say this for Javy, of the three years he's been with the Sox, he was good in the season we sucked.

Frater Perdurabo
07-27-2008, 04:30 PM
Here's the bottom line. The Sox won two of three on the road. Road sweeps are extremely difficult, even against cellar dwellers. Although a sweep would have been fantastic, I'm satisfied with a series win. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Of course I want a sweep or at least a series win in Minnesota, but I'll be satisfied with a split. If we split, we're still up by 2.5 games (three in the loss column), with just three more games to play in the baggie dump in late September.

Lip Man 1
07-27-2008, 04:34 PM
Frater:

Agree. The way the Sox have played in the Metrodome the past few years, I'd be very satisfied with a split.

The Sox want to hold on to the status quo and knock four more games off the schedule.

Lip

Hitmen77
07-27-2008, 04:34 PM
Hate to lose today, but if someone told me on Thursday that the Sox were going to win 2 of 3 in Detroit, I would have been very happy to hear it.

Vazquez performed pretty much as I expected today. Seems like he's always good a month or two and then shaky a month or two. Hopefully that means he's still got another good stretch in him as the Sox head towards the finish line this season.

One good thing about today is that Javy lasted long enough to give the bullpen some rest. Only 1 IP from Thornton today.

Now on to Minnesota's House of Horrors. Let's go guys! Gawd, do I hate watching the Sox play there. A split would be great. Even if the Sox manage to win 1 out of the next 4, it won't be a total disaster...at least that would leave us in 1st and 4 more games in the TrashDome off the schedule. Just DON'T GET SWEPT!

JB98
07-27-2008, 04:38 PM
The Sox haven't been getting particularly good pitching lately. Aside from Buehrle, our starters have been either mediocre or bad. With Thornton's scoreless outing today, this is the first time in seemingly forever that our bullpen went unscored upon in a game.

Offensively, the Sox have been outhitting their struggling pitching and sometimes shoddy defense. You can't do that everyday, and they couldn't do it today.

That said, this was a good weekend for the Sox. They maintained a 2.5-game lead on the Twins, and they increased their lead over Detroit to 6.5 Three more games have come off the schedule, and the Sox are still in the driver's seat.

If the Sox win two games in every city on this trip, everything we'll be fine. Right now, the Sox just need to hold their ground.

Hitmen77
07-27-2008, 04:40 PM
Of course I want a sweep or at least a series win in Minnesota, but I'll be satisfied with a split. If we split, we're still up by 2.5 games (three in the loss column), with just three more games to play in the baggie dump in late September.

Agreed.

Sox games in that dump are the worst. Always seems to bring out the worst in the Sox and I always happen to tune in just in time for Minnesota to get a bloop 2-out RBI double or a soft-roller-on-the-carpet thru the infield RBI single.:mad:

LITTLE NELL
07-27-2008, 04:40 PM
I've been trying to find a former Sox pitcher who reminds me of Vazquez and I think I've come up with one.

He pitched for the Sox a shade over 25 years ago (my God has it been that long?)

He had great stuff, teased everyone by tossing some brilliant games and could control a team seemingly at will....yet he never was able to consistently put it together and eventually Roland Hemond had enough.

His name? Steve Trout.

Lip
Lip,its almost 30 years. In 79 the Sox had those 4 promissing lefties, Kravec, Baumgarten, Wortham and Trout who all had winning records with a team that finished 15 games under .500
The one righty was Barrios and he was 8-3.
Kind of hard to believe we had a losing record in 79. IIRC Trout had some other issues.

TDog
07-27-2008, 04:41 PM
Having a 3.20 ERA in 211.0 innings is indicative of a great season. Wins are not.

A great statistical season. But when the Cubs plugged that pitcher into the biggest game of the year, they came up with a pticher whose line for the game figued out to an ERA of 11.81. Kerry Wood ended up a loser.

It used to be that to be a big winner, you had to throw a lot of complete games, or go deep enough to turn it over to your closer (who used to go two innings sometimes). Even now, big winners are pitchers who don't just have great ERAs, but who pitch relatively deep into ballgames, not giving up the lead. Harden is the best statistical pitcher for the Cubs this year in his three starts, but he is 0-1, in large part because he doesn't go deep enough into the game. In fact, for all his success, the Cubs are 1-2 in his starts, and 1-1 in extra-inning games.

There are pitchers who are winners. There are pitchers with great stats who aren't. When they pitch against each other, you more often than not see the winners beating the guys with the great stuff. That's the way it's always been.

ERA does not predict the outcome of a game becaue it only tells you where you've been. Maybe it does on a video game console, but that's not how it works in real life.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 04:48 PM
A great statistical season. But when the Cubs plugged that pitcher into the biggest game of the year, they came up with a pticher whose line for the game figued out to an ERA of 11.81. Kerry Wood ended up a loser.

It used to be that to be a big winner, you had to throw a lot of complete games, or go deep enough to turn it over to your closer (who used to go two innings sometimes). Even now, big winners are pitchers who don't just have great ERAs, but who pitch relatively deep into ballgames, not giving up the lead. Harden is the best statistical pitcher for the Cubs this year in his three starts, but he is 0-1, in large part because he doesn't go deep enough into the game. In fact, for all his success, the Cubs are 1-2 in his starts, and 1-1 in extra-inning games.

There are pitchers who are winners. There are pitchers with great stats who aren't. When they pitch against each other, you more often than not see the winners beating the guys with the great stuff. That's the way it's always been.

ERA does not predict the outcome of a game becaue it only tells you where you've been. Maybe it does on a video game console, but that's not how it works in real life.
He went deep into games! Come on! He threw 211.0 innings.

champagne030
07-27-2008, 05:22 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but Ozzie's decision to play Walnuts cost us again. Swish cannot field a fairly routine fly and they get a run.......Paulie is still looking for his jock. Oh well, get the Twinkies in the ****dome.

TDog
07-27-2008, 05:22 PM
He went deep into games! Come on! He threw 211.0 innings.

He went deep into games and won three more than he lost. It wasn't like he would have won 20 if he had some support from the bullpen. He started 32 games and got 15 decisions. And the Cubs were 4-3 in his seven no-decisions. That isn't a dominating record to show for having a dominating pitcher on the mound, especially for a team that came within five outs of goign to the World Series.

As long as I've been watching baseball, there have been pitchers with great stats who didn't have big win totals. It isn't simply a question of luck.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 05:24 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but Ozzie's decision to play Walnuts cost us again. Swish cannot field a fairly routine fly and they get a run.......Paulie is still looking for his jock. Oh well, get the Twinkies in the ****dome.

Paulie looks like he has no confidence out there. I'm wondering if when he is pulled late in games, it isn't for offensive purposes rather than defensive. Swisher isn't as good a first baseman as Paul is. I can only imagine what his confidence level would be if he was pulled for a pinch hitter.

Or maybe he is still hurting. He has fallen pretty far in such a short amount of time.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 05:31 PM
Paulie looks like he has no confidence out there. I'm wondering if when he is pulled late in games, it isn't for offensive purposes rather than defensive. Swisher isn't as good a first baseman as Paul is. I can only imagine what his confidence level would be if he was pulled for a pinch hitter.

Or maybe he is still hurting. He has fallen pretty far in such a short amount of time.

That move is about Anderson being a hundred times better in center than Swisher, not about first base.

Jim Shorts
07-27-2008, 05:32 PM
Paulie looks like he has no confidence out there. I'm wondering if when he is pulled late in games, it isn't for offensive purposes rather than defensive. Swisher isn't as good a first baseman as Paul is. I can only imagine what his confidence level would be if he was pulled for a pinch hitter.

Or maybe he is still hurting. He has fallen pretty far in such a short amount of time.

From the stints I've been able to see Swish in for Paulie at 1b, he's been every bit as good and twice as athletic as Paulie on defense.

Swish isn't going to win a GG at first, but Paulie is a hitter whose mediocre defense was able to be overlooked.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 05:34 PM
That move is about Anderson being a hundred times better in center than Swisher, not about first base.

Then why not start Anderson in center, start Swisher at first, and sit Paulie for awhile? Goes back to my other question...is Paul still hurt?

tacosalbarojas
07-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Lip,its almost 30 years. In 79 the Sox had those 4 promissing lefties, Kravec, Baumgarten, Wortham and Trout who all had winning records with a team that finished 15 games under .500
The one righty was Barrios and he was 8-3.
Kind of hard to believe we had a losing record in 79. IIRC Trout had some other issues.Javy is this generations' Mark Langston.

wassagstdu
07-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Great play by Uribe. The guy can play gold glove D at SS, 2B, and 3B. I want him on my team.

On the other hand, Swisher has NO business in CF. Put him at 1B and make Konerko work to get back in the lineup.

LITTLE NELL
07-27-2008, 05:41 PM
Swisher looked best at the plate when he was playing 1st base while PK was hurt.
Sometimes Swish looks like Mackowiak in CF.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 05:43 PM
Sometimes Swish looks like Mackowiak in CF.

Ouch! That's a bit harsh.

Well, maybe sometimes.

LITTLE NELL
07-27-2008, 05:47 PM
Ouch! That's a bit harsh.

Well, maybe sometimes.
The route he took on the flyball hit over his head today was harsh.

turners56
07-27-2008, 05:48 PM
The route he took on the flyball hit over his head today was harsh.

If only he was right handed...

alohafri
07-27-2008, 05:49 PM
The route he took on the flyball hit over his head today was harsh.

I loved the "oh ****" expression on his face as he tried to reach for the ball with his bare hand...like he was Kevin Mitchell. :D:

kittle42
07-27-2008, 05:50 PM
I prefer a pitcher who wins. Not the one who gives you the CHANCE to win.



I take it you were also a member of the Kyle Orton for Starter crew.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 05:52 PM
I take it you were also a member of the Kyle Orton for Starter crew.

If only he didn't go to Purdue...

kittle42
07-27-2008, 05:53 PM
There are pitchers who are winners.

I take it you don't think Dan Marino was much of a QB.

champagne030
07-27-2008, 05:55 PM
I take it you were also a member of the Kyle Orton for Starter crew.

I guess Walnuts is Grossman at this point........anything he does will be given away later in the game.......:o:

FedEx227
07-27-2008, 06:14 PM
I take it you don't think Dan Marino was much of a QB.

Mark Rypien > Dan Marino.

Terrell Davis > Barry Sanders.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 06:30 PM
Mark Rypien > Dan Marino.

Terrell Davis > Barry Sanders.

In the minds of many golf fans, Colin Montgomerie, a great on the European Tour, will go down as worse that John Daly. Daly has two majors under his belt, despite the self-inflicted skeletons in his closet, and Montgomerie has none. Monty has won more tournaments, but has never won one of the four biggies.

One year, after being among the leading money winners in golf, Gary McCord met Sam Snead. Gary was talking as if he was one of the greats...until Sam asked him, "and tell me, what have you won?"

And no, I am not comparing McCord to Marino or Sanders, but wins do matter.

Ask either of them, and I would bet that they would trade all of their MVPs for one Super Bowl win.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 06:54 PM
In the minds of many golf fans, Colin Montgomerie, a great on the European Tour, will go down as worse that John Daly. Daly has two majors under his belt, despite the self-inflicted skeletons in his closet, and Montgomerie has none. Monty has won more tournaments, but has never won one of the four biggies.

One year, after being among the leading money winners in golf, Gary McCord met Sam Snead. Gary was talking as if he was one of the greats...until Sam asked him, "and tell me, what have you won?"

And no, I am not comparing McCord to Marino or Sanders, but wins do matter.

Ask either of them, and I would bet that they would trade all of their MVPs for one Super Bowl win.
How is this germane?

The difference between golf and baseball/football is that golf is an individual sport, baseball and football are team sports. Kerry Wood can pitch his ass off and not win many games because his team sucks.

Is John Danks worse than Livan Hernandez?

Tragg
07-27-2008, 06:54 PM
Rodney gave us a chance in the 9th and we decided to chase.
We swung at balls in the dirt all game.

Tragg
07-27-2008, 06:57 PM
That move is about Anderson being a hundred times better in center than Swisher, not about first base. Even if Swisher is playing first, Anderson plays only if a lefty starts - for righties, he gives way to Wise (who isn't a particularly good defender himself) just like he gave way to Mack and Erstad. Anderson isn't the option (he isn't even a late innings option when Wise is in the lineup)
Against Minny, the Sox can't have the episodes of bad D that the Sox have had fairly regularly since the all star break. That needs to be fixed. Start Anderson and Uribe?

TDog
07-27-2008, 07:24 PM
I take it you don't think Dan Marino was much of a QB.

I didn't know Dan Marino was a starting QB. He could be a total failure for all I know, knowing nothing about him. Unless he was a starting pitcher, he is totally irrelevant to the argument. Baseball has its own dynamics.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 07:37 PM
Ask either of them, and I would bet that they would trade all of their MVPs for one Super Bowl win.

Undoubtedly. However, whether or not they won a Super Bowl has little to nothing to do with their individual abilities as players.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 07:40 PM
I didn't know Dan Marino was a starting QB. He could be a total failure for all I know, knowing nothing about him. Unless he was a starting pitcher, he is totally irrelevant to the argument. Baseball has its own dynamics.

This argument (great player not as good as player X because he's "not a winner") is a crap argument that is often debated in every sport. There is nothing different about baseball except that, as noted here, an AL pitcher has absolutely zero ability to contribute to his team's offense, thus making the argument even more silly in the context of baseball.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 07:41 PM
Oh, and who would you rather have as your starting SS, Alex "not a winner" Rodriguez, or David "grinder" Eckstein?

Note: yes, I know Rodriguez plays 3B now.

JB98
07-27-2008, 07:49 PM
Swisher looked best at the plate when he was playing 1st base while PK was hurt.
Sometimes Swish looks like Mackowiak in CF.

No, he doesn't. He has never looked like Mackowiak. Swisher is not a great CF, but it's just foolish to compare him to Mackowiak, who was one of the worst I've ever seen in CF.

ms620
07-27-2008, 08:01 PM
The Sox swept the Tigers during their first trip to Detroit, they were swept in their second and took two of three in the third. That's a 5-4 road record against a division rival that many expected the Sox to be chasing from a distance.

It's unfortunate the Indians gave up n the season after falling out of the race. I would much rather Sabathia had pitched against the Twins this weekend (or the Tigers in the upcoming week) than go against the Cubs for the Brewers in their big showdown.

It's too bad the Sox offense has had to carry the team lately, but I honestly don't see why people are so upset with one loss. The only Sox quality start this weekend came from Floyd, and if you look at Friday's game thread, people wanted to yank him in the third inning.

Stats do not tell the whole story. It might have been a quality start, but he was lucky not to give up 8 runs. He never looked like he had good stuff. He was pretty awful. He had a nice comeback the last couple innings he pitched, but please do not convince yourself that he pitched well. He pitches that way 10 more times, and i am pretty confident he would give up more runs than he did Friday night in each of the other 10 games.

FedEx227
07-27-2008, 08:05 PM
Oh, and who would you rather have as your starting SS, Alex "not a winner" Rodriguez, or David "grinder" Eckstein?

Note: yes, I know Rodriguez plays 3B now.

You'd be surprised the idiots that would take Eckstein.

alohafri
07-27-2008, 08:09 PM
My admittedly somewhat inane comparisons aside, when did it become such a crime to be pissed off when your team loses? :scratch: Hell, even Cub fans are booing their own off the field when they play piss poor...just ask Marmol.

You are right, Javy is not getting any run support. But is he doing anything to help his cause by giving up three run home runs every start? His ERA has been rising at the same time his run support has been dwindling. Okay, Javy is an innings-eater, but so were Todd Ritchie and Jamie Navarro. I didn't like them either (although I respected the hell out of Ritchie for taking a line drive to the face and stayed in the game!).

alohafri
07-27-2008, 08:12 PM
How is this germane?



Now you want to bring him into this?:redneck

TDog
07-27-2008, 08:47 PM
This argument (great player not as good as player X because he's "not a winner") is a crap argument that is often debated in every sport. There is nothing different about baseball except that, as noted here, an AL pitcher has absolutely zero ability to contribute to his team's offense, thus making the argument even more silly in the context of baseball.


And yet, Kerry Wood drove in two of his team's five runs in the most important game of his career and couldn't get out of the sixth inning without giving up seven runs while enjoying the best season of his career. It isn't simply a matter of having the better stats. He had those on that October night at home. And he still lost. Kerry Wood never went to a World Series chiefly because of Kerry Wood's poor pitching. Would you have wanted him to pitch in that game? The Cubs didn't have a choice, of course. It was his turn and they didn't have anything better, and he had such great stats, so who would question Kerry Wood starting?

In baseball, teams commonly win games when they are outhit. It's not unusual for a pitcher with the better stats to lose or a pitcher who constantly works out of trouble to win. When you see a starting pitcher with great stats but a .500 record in his career it should send up a red flag. Usually when such pitchers move to better teams they continue to put up .500 records. If you watched more baseball and less football, you would recognize that there are pitchers who have a knack for winning and there are pitchers who look unhittable who can't win.

Gavin Floyd is beginning to look like he might be the former while Javier Vazquez has always looked like the latter. As has been noted, Floyd didn't look at all good Friday night, yet, he persevered through a quality start (a stat I don't believe is very important because of its threshold) and left with the game tied. Joel Zumaya looked much better statistically. He pitched an inning without giving up any earned runs. Of course, he suffered a blown save because he allowed two inherited runners to score and put his team in a position to give up the unearned tying run.

Floyd had a better night than Zumaya, who had the better stats. Zumaya didn't do his job, and everyone knows it. But some stat geek will look at his line and factor it into what a dominant pitcher he has been. Floyd's team won Friday night. Both Floyd and Zumaya heavily influenced the outcome, although neither got the decision.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 08:54 PM
And yet, Kerry Wood drove in two of his team's five runs in the most important game of his career and couldn't get out of the sixth inning without giving up seven runs while enjoying the best season of his career. It isn't simply a matter of having the better stats. He had those on that October night at home. And he still lost. Kerry Wood never went to a World Series chiefly because of Kerry Wood's poor pitching. Would you have wanted him to pitch in that game? The Cubs didn't have a choice, of course. It was his turn and they didn't have anything better, and he had such great stats, so who would question Kerry Wood starting?

In baseball, teams commonly win games when they are outhit. It's not unusual for a pitcher with the better stats to lose or a pitcher who constantly works out of trouble to win. When you see a starting pitcher with great stats but a .500 record in his career it should send up a red flag. Usually when such pitchers move to better teams they continue to put up .500 records. If you watched more baseball and less football, you would recognize that there are pitchers who have a knack for winning and there are pitchers who look unhittable who can't win.

Gavin Floyd is beginning to look like he might be the former while Javier Vazquez has always looked like the latter. As has been noted, Floyd didn't look at all good Friday night, yet, he persevered through a quality start (a stat I don't believe is very important because of its threshold) and left with the game tied. Joel Zumaya looked much better statistically. He pitched an inning without giving up any earned runs. Of course, he suffered a blown save because he allowed two inherited runners to score and put his team in a position to give up the unearned tying run.

Floyd had a better night than Zumaya, who had the better stats. Zumaya didn't do his job, and everyone knows it. But some stat geek will look at his line and factor it into what a dominant pitcher he has been. Floyd's team won Friday night. Both Floyd and Zumaya heavily influenced the outcome, although neither got the decision.
You are just all over the place. I have no idea what you're talking about.

On the flip side, the Cubs would never have gotten there if not for Kerry Wood. You kinda left that out.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 09:14 PM
Earlier in the thread we talked about Alexei being the best hitter on the team with two strikes. I got him at 6 for 30 in the last month. Not too stellar.

Brian26
07-27-2008, 09:25 PM
This argument (great player not as good as player X because he's "not a winner") is a crap argument that is often debated in every sport. There is nothing different about baseball except that, as noted here, an AL pitcher has absolutely zero ability to contribute to his team's offense, thus making the argument even more silly in the context of baseball.

To a certain extent, I disagree. If I had my choice to pitch the 7th game of the World Series, and my two choices were:

a.) Hungover Freddy Garcia who was in the bar until 4am and would be working on two hours of sleep and six cans of Red Bull, with a 91-mph fastball and can't get his curve over to save his life.

Or

b.) Well rested Javy Vazquez with upper 90's heater and filthy curve-ball.

Want to guess who I would pick? It would be a. (disregard the fact that the 7th game of the WS would be a night game, giving Freddy ample time to get more sleep). There are certain intangibles that can't be measured by stats alone.

BadBobbyJenks
07-27-2008, 09:28 PM
My admittedly somewhat inane comparisons aside, when did it become such a crime to be pissed off when your team loses? :scratch: Hell, even Cub fans are booing their own off the field when they play piss poor...just ask Marmol.



I don't think it is a crime for you to be pissed off and I don't think anyone really cared, but your argument about pitchers was and is ridiculous.

Craig Grebeck
07-27-2008, 09:28 PM
To a certain extent, I disagree. If I had my choice to pitch the 7th game of the World Series, and my two choices were:

a.) Hungover Freddy Garcia who was in the bar until 4am and would be working on two hours of sleep and six cans of Red Bull, with a 91-mph fastball and can't get his curve over to save his life.

Or

b.) Well rested Javy Vazquez with upper 90's heater and filthy curve-ball.

Want to guess who I would pick? It would be a. (disregard the fact that the 7th game of the WS would be a night game, giving Freddy ample time to get more sleep). There are certain intangibles that can't be measured by stats alone.
Pointless post.

itsnotrequired
07-27-2008, 09:29 PM
To a certain extent, I disagree. If I had my choice to pitch the 7th game of the World Series, and my two choices were:

a.) Hungover Freddy Garcia who was in the bar until 4am and would be working on two hours of sleep and six cans of Red Bull, with a 91-mph fastball and can't get his curve over to save his life.

Or

b.) Well rested Javy Vazquez with upper 90's heater and filthy curve-ball.

Want to guess who I would pick? It would be a. (disregard the fact that the 7th game of the WS would be a night game, giving Freddy ample time to get more sleep). There are certain intangibles that can't be measured by stats alone.

i choose bob gibson

kittle42
07-27-2008, 09:54 PM
And yet, Kerry Wood drove in two of his team's five runs in the most important game of his career and couldn't get out of the sixth inning without giving up seven runs while enjoying the best season of his career. It isn't simply a matter of having the better stats. He had those on that October night at home. And he still lost. Kerry Wood never went to a World Series chiefly because of Kerry Wood's poor pitching. Would you have wanted him to pitch in that game? The Cubs didn't have a choice, of course. It was his turn and they didn't have anything better, and he had such great stats, so who would question Kerry Wood starting?

Any team in the world would have taken Prior and Wood back to back in games 6 and 7 in 2003. This is all just silliness. Even the best pitchers get bombed on occasion. They simply pitch too many games not to.

In baseball, teams commonly win games when they are outhit. It's not unusual for a pitcher with the better stats to lose or a pitcher who constantly works out of trouble to win. When you see a starting pitcher with great stats but a .500 record in his career it should send up a red flag. Usually when such pitchers move to better teams they continue to put up .500 records. If you watched more baseball and less football, you would recognize that there are pitchers who have a knack for winning and there are pitchers who look unhittable who can't win.

The Brewers shouldn't have traded for Sabathia. His W/L record in the AL this year was unimpressive. Obviously, he simply was unable to pitch to the level of possible runs he should have expected his team to score and then keep the other team to one fewer run that that number. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Indians completely suck. He is not a winner.

Vicente Padilla is 12-5 with a 4.56 ERA. Felix Hernandez is 7-6 with a 2.95 ERA. Whom would you rather have?

Floyd had a better night than Zumaya, who had the better stats. Zumaya didn't do his job, and everyone knows it. But some stat geek will look at his line and factor it into what a dominant pitcher he has been. Floyd's team won Friday night. Both Floyd and Zumaya heavily influenced the outcome, although neither got the decision.

A stat geek will look at the line and notice that Zumaya blew a save and allowed two inherited runners to score, so what the hell are you talking about?

I will take my team of 12 stat-head-special pitchers over your team of 12 guys who "know how to win" over 162 games. I don't need pythagorean winning percentages to guess that my guys will dominate.

jabrch
07-27-2008, 10:18 PM
Our "fans" completely and totally suck. We just won 2 of 3 on the road against the team that was favored by almost everyone to win the division. We kept 2.5 ahead of the Twins and put the Tiggers on their heels.

And people are still bitching? I'm not surprised. I'm not even disappointed anymore. My expectations of our fanbase continue to shrink.

We once had a fanbase that was smart enough to not fall into traps that other fanbases regularly fall for. That's no longer the case. We may sell more tickets, have more people wearing Silver and Black, and get more posts on a message board, but the state of Sox Fandom is worse off than ever before.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 10:24 PM
Our "fans" completely and totally suck. We just won 2 of 3 on the road against the team that was favored by almost everyone to win the division. We kept 2.5 ahead of the Twins and put the Tiggers on their heels.

And people are still bitching? I'm not surprised. I'm not even disappointed anymore. My expectations of our fanbase continue to shrink.

We once had a fanbase that was smart enough to not fall into traps that other fanbases regularly fall for. That's no longer the case. We may sell more tickets, have more people wearing Silver and Black, and get more posts on a message board, but the state of Sox Fandom is worse off than ever before.

In all my arguing about this ridiculous "pitcher who knows how to win" thing, I didn't state anything about the original issue here - which jabrch addresses. I agree with you, jabrch - had the Sox lost one of the previous games in this series - games where stupid errors, etc. gave runs to the Tigers, I could see a reason to bitch. But why bitch about this game? It was one of those 60 they're gonna lose. And I *really* don't get the thread title. What exactly did the Sox do to give this game away? About the only thing I could think of was swinging at 3 straight ball 4s in the 9th, but we were already down with no one on base.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 10:25 PM
Our "fans" completely and totally suck. We just won 2 of 3 on the road against the team that was favored by almost everyone to win the division. We kept 2.5 ahead of the Twins and put the Tiggers on their heels.

The team lacks "killer instinct." :redneck

DickAllen72
07-27-2008, 10:28 PM
Our "fans" completely and totally suck. We just won 2 of 3 on the road against the team that was favored by almost everyone to win the division. We kept 2.5 ahead of the Twins and put the Tiggers on their heels.

And people are still bitching? I'm not surprised. I'm not even disappointed anymore. My expectations of our fanbase continue to shrink.

We once had a fanbase that was smart enough to not fall into traps that other fanbases regularly fall for. That's no longer the case. We may sell more tickets, have more people wearing Silver and Black, and get more posts on a message board, but the state of Sox Fandom is worse off than ever before.
Don't judge most Sox fans by a handful of people who post on an internet message board. Or the handful of people who call into post-game shows or sports-blab radio.

Do you hear a lot of booing from the fans at the games? The Sox fans you know personally--when you talk baseball with them, are they constantly bitching and whining?

The one shortcoming of the Sox fanbase is the thing that we're not supposed to discuss on this board.

EDIT: Having said that, there's nothing wrong with making rational observations about the team's weaknesses and discussing the lack of execution or poor performance that may occur.

jabrch
07-27-2008, 10:30 PM
The team lacks "killer instinct." :redneck

That's the funny thing...this team doesn't lack much.

Sometimes it executes - sometimes it doesn't. It's really that simple.

The Tigers lack a pitching staff. The Twins lack power. We have both. We have everything it takes to go deep in a season.

It is simply a matter of execution.

kittle42
07-27-2008, 10:32 PM
That's the funny thing...this team doesn't lack much.

Sometimes it executes - sometimes it doesn't. It's really that simple.

The Tigers lack a pitching staff. The Twins lack power. We have both. We have everything it takes to go deep in a season.

It is simply a matter of execution.

It will simply be a matter of getting hot at the right time. The team as comprised is a streaky one...that is unlikely to change.

jabrch
07-27-2008, 10:32 PM
Don't judge most Sox fans by a handful of people who post on an internet message board. Or the handful of people who call into post-game shows or sports-blab radio.

Do you hear a lot of booing from the fans at the games? The Sox fans you know personally--when you talk baseball with them, are they constantly bitching and whining?

The one shortcoming of the Sox fanbase is the thing that we're not supposed to discuss on this board.

That's a good point Dick. When we had a smaller and less vocal fanbase, you didn't hear this crap. The larger it has gotten and the more vocal it has gotten, the worse it has become. I think there is some of the pack mentality here where a lot of people just follow the path blazed by some others - but I really believe that I enjoyed Sox fans better when there were fewer of us.

DickAllen72
07-27-2008, 10:36 PM
- but I really believe that I enjoyed Sox fans better when there were fewer of us.
I long for the day when everbody in the state of Illinois is a White Sox fan! :wink:

jabrch
07-27-2008, 10:37 PM
It will simply be a matter of getting hot at the right time. The team as comprised is a streaky one...that is unlikely to change.

Would you want it to change? Sure - we'd like 10 runs every day, but that isn't going to happen. Would you rather have team capable of going out and getting hot and running off huge streaks or a team that will win consistently but win fewer, and not be able to really get on a tear?

jabrch
07-27-2008, 10:37 PM
I long for the day when everbody in the state of Illinois is a White Sox fan! :wink:

I don't think I'd want that. We've picked up too many dumbasses in the past 3 years. If the other X% of the city's baseball fans joined us, it would mean more dumbasses.

whitesox901
07-27-2008, 10:41 PM
I long for the day when everbody in the state of Illinois is a White Sox fan! :wink:

how about all of Ohio :D:

KnightSox
07-27-2008, 10:42 PM
I don't think I'd want that. We've picked up too many dumbasses in the past 3 years. If the other X% of the city's baseball fans joined us, it would mean more dumbasses.By saying dumbasses you mean the clowns who are throwing the ball back at the Cell?

DickAllen72
07-27-2008, 10:43 PM
how about all of Ohio :D:
Gotta have some Indians fans to keep up the rivalry. :D: But definitely all of Indiana should be Sox fans as well.

jabrch
07-27-2008, 10:45 PM
By saying dumbasses you mean the clowns who are throwing the ball back at the Cell?

That's a good example... I hope security keeps tossing them.

Noneck
07-27-2008, 10:53 PM
Someone is talking about dumasses. I assume he means the people that have increased attendance by about 10k a game and have put the Sox payroll in MLB's top 5, which as a result has given the Sox the opportunity to compete with the big market teams. I guess some people don't like to being able to compete year after year.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 10:57 PM
Very easily could have lost all three, I have lost all faith in Javy. Lets get the Twins this week.

In defense of Javi, there's been enough times the Sox don't hit for him.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 10:58 PM
Could easily have the bases loaded with nobody out in the top of the 9th. Having said that, I'll take two out of three against the Tigers in Detroit any day.

It's easy to overlook how hot the Tigers have been of late and the Sox steal a couple of games in their yard.

DickAllen72
07-27-2008, 11:01 PM
.....the people that have increased attendance by about 10k a game and have put the Sox payroll in MLB's top 5, which as a result has given the Sox the opportunity to compete with the big market teams.
I'm with you. That's why I'd like to see the Sox fanbase grow by leaps and bounds in the entire Illinois/Indiana area.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:18 PM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!

Jon Garland.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:23 PM
I'll take the guy with better peripherals. Pitchers are often at the mercy of their offense.

Good to see someone has been watching the games. This team has wasted a lot of good starts.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:28 PM
I don't understand how a pitcher can be held responsible for a lack of offense.

Like the '77 Sox with guys like Barrios who was 14-7 with a 4+ ERA. That ERA would be similar to a 5 today.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:35 PM
Thanks for posting! I feel better. Especially cause of what the Cubs/Brewers are doing. actually wasn't as mad as I usually am when we lose. At the minimum, I would like to go 4-3 against DET/MIN. Overall, a minimum of 6-4.

6-4 is going to be hard to do. A split at Minn would be great. 1-3 is not the end of the world.
Few teams are above .500 on the road. Twins are hard to beat at the "trampoline".

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:44 PM
I take it you don't think Dan Marino was much of a QB.

and the Colts should have drafted Ryan Leaf

TDog
07-27-2008, 11:47 PM
Any team in the world would have taken Prior and Wood back to back in games 6 and 7 in 2003. This is all just silliness. Even the best pitchers get bombed on occasion. They simply pitch too many games not to. ....

Of course. And the team blessed with Kerry Wood in Game 7 (and for that matter had Mark Prior in a potential series-ending Game 6) in large part because the starting pitching failed them.

ERAs do not predict how a pitcher will pitch in a given game. Kerry Wood's 14-11 record was more predictive of his being a pitcher who could lose Game 7 than his ERA or Strikeout-to-innings-pitched ratio.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:52 PM
But is he doing anything to help his cause by giving up three run home runs every start?

You're right. With the lineup the Sox (suppose to) have, 3 runs is asking a lot.
They didn't count on Konerko and Thome hitting .200.

kittle42
07-28-2008, 12:23 AM
ERAs do not predict how a pitcher will pitch in a given game. Kerry Wood's 14-11 record was more predictive of his being a pitcher who could lose Game 7 than his ERA or Strikeout-to-innings-pitched ratio.

ERA - which shows what a pitcher averages giving up over 9 innings, is not predictive of performance, but wins, a stat which is extremely dependent not only on how few runs you give up, but on how many are scored for you, is?

There will be no convincing you otherwise on this, will there? Frustrating.

FedEx227
07-28-2008, 12:31 AM
ERA - which shows what a pitcher averages giving up over 9 innings, is not predictive of performance, but wins, a stat which is extremely dependent not only on how few runs you give up, but on how many are scored for you, is?

Exactly.

Batting Average and Wins 4 Lyfe.

TDog
07-28-2008, 12:53 AM
ERA - which shows what a pitcher averages giving up over 9 innings, is not predictive of performance, but wins, a stat which is extremely dependent not only on how few runs you give up, but on how many are scored for you, is?

There will be no convincing you otherwise on this, will there? Frustrating.

I've been watching baseball since the 1960s, and I have found this to be the case.

BUMMER
07-28-2008, 12:58 AM
[quote=Hitmen77;1978619]Hate to lose today, but if someone told me on Thursday that the Sox were going to win 2 of 3 in Detroit, I would have been very happy to hear it.
I agree....I also would have been happy on Thursday if 2 out of 3 was promised.......BUT my expectations change once the Sox have already won the first 2. To me, on Sunday, it becomes a 1-game series and at that point would not settle for 2 of 3. I'd have loved for them to go into Minny off the sweep....
With that theory, tonight (Sunday night), I'd probably be happy to hear we split the four games up there and come out 2.5 ahead. But if we win Monday, I want 2 of the next three and if we win the first 3, I want to bury them with a sweep.
I guess my only point is expectations change and what I'd be happy with before a series starts may be different at the end of the series. Looking back only seems like "settling". No?
Sorry, Hitman ...I only used a portion of your original post

Nellie_Fox
07-28-2008, 01:32 AM
Sorry, Hitman ...I only used a portion of your original postAnd you also screwed up the quote function. If you see that, during your editing of a post, you have deleted either the beginning command (the quote in brackets) or the end of the command (the /quote in brackets) please either fix it, or if you don't understand how, delete the post and start over. If you can't do either, don't use the quote function.

I fix dozens of these every day without comment, but I couldn't fix yours because I couldn't tell where Hitman's post ended and yours started.

whitesox901
07-28-2008, 03:13 AM
And how do you propose they be evaluated? Give me a guy who is 18-5 with 7 strikeouts and an ERA of 7.00 over a guy who is 6-14 with 190 strikeouts and an ERA of 2.00 any day of the week!

wheres the teal?

Craig Grebeck
07-28-2008, 06:30 AM
I've been watching baseball since the 1960s, and I have found this to be the case.
Do you understand how pitchers are credited for their wins? You do know that it's not all in their hands, right?

By the way, Roger Clemens was pure ****ing garbage in 2005. Absolute rubbish year for him. 13 wins in 32 starts? What a bad season.

SoxGirl4Life
07-28-2008, 06:45 AM
Our "fans" completely and totally suck. We just won 2 of 3 on the road against the team that was favored by almost everyone to win the division. We kept 2.5 ahead of the Twins and put the Tiggers on their heels.

And people are still bitching? I'm not surprised. I'm not even disappointed anymore. My expectations of our fanbase continue to shrink.

We once had a fanbase that was smart enough to not fall into traps that other fanbases regularly fall for. That's no longer the case. We may sell more tickets, have more people wearing Silver and Black, and get more posts on a message board, but the state of Sox Fandom is worse off than ever before.

That's why I don't go into gamethreads, unless its a day game and i'm stuck at work. And also, whoever clued me in on "ignore" has made this a more enjoyable experience. I have more than a handful of people on that list.

But one quirk that was telling about this weekend: The Sox and Tigers both scored 17 runs this weekend, yet we came away with the series win.

Irishsoxfan
07-28-2008, 07:43 AM
I turned off the gameday thread sometime around the 4th inning yesterday it was pretty obnoxious. Conversly, I stayed with the game till the end. It wasn't a good performance by any means but the Sox have got to be happy with 2 of 3 from the Tigers. The gameday thread nearly gave me an excuse to give up WSI which would be a shame as I get most of my baseball news here first. Some of the posters on this thread however have given me reason to continue. Now, where is that 'ignore' button ...

alohafri
07-28-2008, 08:39 AM
That's the funny thing...this team doesn't lack much.



How about some consistent defense? Relievers you can trust to come in to get the job done without drama? Some guys who can steal a base to get out of a double play possibility? A few more starters who hit above .275? A first baseman who hits his weight?

To me, this team is designed to win this year, not next. There is always room for improvement. I am enjoying the view from the top in July. I WANT to enjoy it in October!

kittle42
07-28-2008, 11:15 AM
I've been watching baseball since the 1960s, and I have found this to be the case.

I've watched enough baseball in my 30 years here to respectfully, and I believe intelligently, disagree.

jabrch
07-28-2008, 11:34 AM
How about some consistent defense? Relievers you can trust to come in to get the job done without drama? Some guys who can steal a base to get out of a double play possibility? A few more starters who hit above .275? A first baseman who hits his weight?

To me, this team is designed to win this year, not next. There is always room for improvement. I am enjoying the view from the top in July. I WANT to enjoy it in October!

As I said - it is about execution - not about gaps.

How about some consistent defense?

That's execution. We have a decent defensive club with some guys not playing well - Crede in particular. Also PK. But you aren't going to make a move anywhere in your order for that reason - right?


Relievers you can trust to come in to get the job done without drama?

This bullpen is as good or better than you find in the game. We could always use more - but we don't have a huge gap in the pen. I didn't say we can't improve, but our bullpen as a whole is definitely a strength. As far as the drama, you know the game well enough - that's the nature of bullpens. What other team's bullpens would you rather have than ours? Assume Linebrink comes back...and the answer is very few. Maybe LAA? I know you can always want more - but that's not the same as "lacking much" which was what I said that you responded to.

Some guys who can steal a base to get out of a double play possibility?

I'm fine with fast guys. I like them. But we built this team for this park. Instead of worrying about running fast enough to avoid DPs (how many extra DPs could we avoid if we were faster, and how many runs would that cost us in terms of what our current players deliver?), I'd like to see our hitters execute like they should.


A few more starters who hit above .275? A first baseman who hits his weight?

Again, that's execution, isn't it? Who in our lineup isn't expected to hit .275? Where, as I said in the thread that you responded to, are we lacking much? Paul Konerko needs to execute. We don't lack in having an effective hitting 1B. What we need is the one we have to do what is expected.


Teams lacking stuff...

Detroit - a bullpen
Cleveland - an offense
Minny - Power

The sox have all of those. We want them to be better, of course, buit there's a large difference between wanting better and currently lacking.

Dan Mega
07-28-2008, 12:28 PM
Our "fans" completely and totally suck. We just won 2 of 3 on the road against the team that was favored by almost everyone to win the division. We kept 2.5 ahead of the Twins and put the Tiggers on their heels.

And people are still bitching? I'm not surprised. I'm not even disappointed anymore. My expectations of our fanbase continue to shrink.

We once had a fanbase that was smart enough to not fall into traps that other fanbases regularly fall for. That's no longer the case. We may sell more tickets, have more people wearing Silver and Black, and get more posts on a message board, but the state of Sox Fandom is worse off than ever before.

And I suppose ranting and bitching like this about other people complaining somehow makes you a better Sox fan than everyone else? Pot, meet kettle. Seriously, a guy named Ranger already has his own radio show to do **** like this. And I also like how you put "fans" in quotes.

If anything, the Sox fans are the people who care so much about their team that they won't be happy until the team is perfect and/or wins it all.

Then you have Sox "fans" like yourself that constantly demean and insult other people/posters. Why? Who knows. Maybe your self-esteem needs a boost. I agree with you that Sox "fan"dom is worse than ever. You are the leader of these so called "better" fans.

itsnotrequired
07-28-2008, 12:35 PM
And I suppose ranting and bitching like this about other people complaining somehow makes you a better Sox fan than everyone else? Pot, meet kettle. Seriously, a guy named Ranger already has his own radio show to do **** like this. And I also like how you put "fans" in quotes.

If anything, the Sox fans are the people who care so much about their team that they won't be happy until the team is perfect and/or wins it all.

Then you have Sox "fans" like yourself that constantly demean and insult other people/posters. Why? Who knows. Maybe your self-esteem needs a boost. I agree with you that Sox "fan"dom is worse than ever. You are the leader of these so called "better" fans.

I'm a "fan".

alohafri
07-28-2008, 01:07 PM
As I said - it is about execution - not about gaps.

[/size][/font]

That's execution. We have a decent defensive club with some guys not playing well - Crede in particular. Also PK. But you aren't going to make a move anywhere in your order for that reason - right?


[font=Comic Sans MS]

This bullpen is as good or better than you find in the game. We could always use more - but we don't have a huge gap in the pen. I didn't say we can't improve, but our bullpen as a whole is definitely a strength. As far as the drama, you know the game well enough - that's the nature of bullpens. What other team's bullpens would you rather have than ours? Assume Linebrink comes back...and the answer is very few. Maybe LAA? I know you can always want more - but that's not the same as "lacking much" which was what I said that you responded to.

[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3]

I'm fine with fast guys. I like them. But we built this team for this park. Instead of worrying about running fast enough to avoid DPs (how many extra DPs could we avoid if we were faster, and how many runs would that cost us in terms of what our current players deliver?), I'd like to see our hitters execute like they should.


[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3]

Again, that's execution, isn't it? Who in our lineup isn't expected to hit .275? Where, as I said in the thread that you responded to, are we lacking much? Paul Konerko needs to execute. We don't lack in having an effective hitting 1B. What we need is the one we have to do what is expected.


Teams lacking stuff...

Detroit - a bullpen
Cleveland - an offense
Minny - Power

The sox have all of those. We want them to be better, of course, buit there's a large difference between wanting better and currently lacking.

[SIZE=3]A decent defensive team? Possibly, but when your centerfielder has been compared to Rob Mackowiak, it might be a stretch to call them decent. For every outstanding play Ramirez makes at second, he has one fairly routine play that he butchers. I love TCQ, bue sometimes he looks a little lost in left field. How many guys have AJ and Toby Hall thrown out on attempted steals? (yes, I know, the pitchers aren't exactly keeping them close...). With however many errors Crede has this year already (more than he has had in any full season), it makes me wonder how healthy his back truly is.

As far as the bullpen, maybe the result is better than the sum of its parts. You never know what they are going to do! They have been very inconsistent over the past month. Why do you have to take the bullpen as a whole? Why can't you go out and get another relief pitcher? I'm not talking about blowing it up, just improving it.

A couple faster guys could actually mean a few more runs. Someone stretches a single into a double, steals a base, moves from first to third on a base hit, and there you have a few more runs. Leave station-to-station baseball for 16 inch softball leagues.

Have you seen Konerko hit this season? We don't lack an effective hitting first baseman? This has been going on since April! Not just the past two weeks. If he is healthy, yes, he needs to execute. If he is hurt, he needs to get his ass back on the DL. He isn't helping us!

Maybe we just have different definitions of what "gaps" are and how they need to be plugged.

As I said before, I look at this year as a "win now" year.

Tragg
07-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Then you have Sox "fans" like yourself that constantly demean and insult other people/posters. Why? Who knows. Maybe your self-esteem needs a boost. I agree with you that Sox "fan"dom is worse than ever. You are the leader of these so called "better" fans.
Amen, Mega.