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View Full Version : Why Alexei Ramirez isn't a star?


Shoeless
07-25-2008, 11:11 PM
I read this article and felt a sense of disgust. Talk about your glass half-empty.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/40907-why-alexei-ramirez-isnt-a-star

Edit: the real answer is "He doesn't play for the Yankees or the Red Sox" :rolleyes:

shes
07-25-2008, 11:18 PM
There's really no reason for such an article to surface when Alexei is playing so well. It does leave a bad taste in one's mouth. However, the points brought up are valid, if obvious, and point to why Alexei will never be a top of the order guy. But, as a 7-9 hitter, he's an upgrade over what we've had (namely Uribe) and that, my friends, is reason enough to tip one back and enjoy :gulp:.

FarWestChicago
07-25-2008, 11:24 PM
Who are these assbags and who cares what they say?

Oh ****, I just realized they are genius statheads. :roflmao:

cheezheadsoxfan
07-25-2008, 11:29 PM
Bunch of bull****.:angry:

hawkjt
07-25-2008, 11:47 PM
That range bullcrap is wrong. My eyes do not lie and he is quicker than average. His length helps also. His hitting is amazing. This run is amazing for him. Has hit what, .360 for his last 40 games? get out.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 12:01 AM
I just read this article again. Now, do you statheads still wonder why everybody ****ing hates you? Seriously, do you? If you are so smart, don't you think you should even hate yourself? :rolling:

DSpivack
07-26-2008, 12:03 AM
I just read this article again. Now, do you statheads still wonder why everybody ****ing hates you? Seriously, do you? If you are so smart, don't you think you should even hate yourself? :rolling:

You clearly didn't read the article. Sure, we might have watched Alexei and thus think he plays good defense, but watching games doesn't mean nearly as much as does the awesomness that is RAA. It proves everything! :rolleyes:

doublem23
07-26-2008, 12:04 AM
You got to take anything you read on Bleacher Report with a grain of salt, since they basically let any shmuck with an email address sign up and offer their opinions. There's a reason these "columnists" are writing for an open-source network and it's not because they're "shaking the establishment!" Its because they suck.

This guy = ****tard

DSpivack
07-26-2008, 12:04 AM
You got to take anything you read on Bleacher Report with a grain of salt, since they basically let any shmuck with an email address sign up and offer their opinions.

The author also wrote an article entitled "Why Barry Bonds Should Be A Yankee." :?:

doublem23
07-26-2008, 12:05 AM
The author also wrote an article entitled "Why Barry Bonds Should Be A Yankee." :?:

Point. Proven.

**** this guy. :cool:

DSpivack
07-26-2008, 12:06 AM
Point. Proven.

**** this guy. :cool:

Hey, Alexei just don't have the same BLEEPBORP as the next guy, so I guess he isn't good.

roadrunner
07-26-2008, 12:08 AM
I just read this article again. Now, do you statheads still wonder why everybody ****ing hates you? Seriously, do you? If you are so smart, don't you think you should even hate yourself? :rolling:

I didn't read the article but I do know that any sort of comment like this essentially translates to either "I'm too dumb to understand what you're talking about" or "you are making a point I can't factually refute so I'll call you names instead"

Who is "everybody"? The "cool kids"?

DSpivack
07-26-2008, 12:12 AM
I didn't read the article but I do know that any sort of comment like this essentially translates to either "I'm too dumb to understand what you're talking about" or "you are making a point I can't factually refute so I'll call you names instead"

Who is "everybody"? The "cool kids"?

Why should they have to be refuted with statistics, though? Watch the damn game and decide for yourself if a player is good or not. Plus, when you start to make up a lot of complicated statistics by combining other stats, you're losing the meaning of them in the first place.

I like some stats; I think things like OBP, slugging, OPS, and OPS+ have their use in comparing hitters, as does ERA+ among pitchers. But a lot of the other things that are combined from multiple stats, like VORP and PECOTA and others, just seem to totally lose any real meaning. Not to mention I don't think defense can truly be measured numerically.

Vernam
07-26-2008, 12:15 AM
I only care about "pitches chased" when a batter isn't making good contact. If he's driving the ball (and Alexei is), then what difference does it make that some of the pitches he hits are borderline strikes? His swing is long, which tends to be a drawback, but he's already shown enough plate coverage to make me think pitchers are going to have a hard time exploiting his aggressive swinging.

With Uggla's errors in the All Star game, this is kind of bad timing for the author to compare Alexei unfavorably to him. :rolleyes: Oh, and that play Ramirez made on Wednesday also was something special that a stat can't capture.

Vernam

roadrunner
07-26-2008, 12:29 AM
Why should they have to be refuted with statistics, though? Watch the damn game and decide for yourself if a player is good or not. Plus, when you start to make up a lot of complicated statistics by combining other stats, you're losing the meaning of them in the first place.

I like some stats; I think things like OBP, slugging, OPS, and OPS+ have their use in comparing hitters, as does ERA+ among pitchers. But a lot of the other things that are combined from multiple stats, like VORP and PECOTA and others, just seem to totally lose any real meaning. Not to mention I don't think defense can truly be measured numerically.

I agree - and you make sound arguments unlike those that resort to name calling and generalizations.

ElevenUp
07-26-2008, 12:34 AM
Mr. Goodman, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent writing were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

fquaye149
07-26-2008, 12:43 AM
The bottom line is Alexei hits the ball extremely well--especially for a rookie--but he really does need to start walking more or he might have diminishing returns.

I don't know why that is a controversial thing to say

Rockman218
07-26-2008, 12:54 AM
Mr. Goodman, what you've just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent writing were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Oh my God, I haven't seen that movie in forever!

"Who'd you rather... Jack Nicholson or Meg Ryan?"

thedudeabides
07-26-2008, 12:55 AM
He's 26, but I guess that you should just ignore the fact that he's played his entire life in Cuba, which has been compared to A ball. It's a huge jump and at a new position, but the only place he can go is down? Great argument. I'm sure somebody with his talent won't continue to make adjustments and learn from his experience.

Anyone who says he has bad range at 2b simply hasn't watched him play a game.

Rockman218
07-26-2008, 01:05 AM
Next time this guys gonna make up some bogus stats that argue Carlos Quentin has no power.:tongue:

seventyseven
07-26-2008, 01:11 AM
Hey, Alexei just don't have the same BLEEPBORP as the next guy, so I guess he isn't good.

Didn't you mean VEEPVORP? Plus, his BABIPIPPI is a full .7 less than David Ortiz's chinstrap.

Bleed_Black
07-26-2008, 01:15 AM
His defensive "Analysis" is based on the "linear weights" system developed by Pete Palmer. A system Bill James proved beyond a sahdow of a doubt is completely flawed. (See James' book Win Shares, where he demolishes that silly system.) James' Win Shares method will prove that Ramirez is a far, far above average fielder, but of course everyone with eyes to see knows that already. Everyone also knows that he needs to be more selective at the plate, but how different is he than, say Soriano, at the same stage in their careers concerning plate discipline? Soriano is a joke of a fielder who never walks - but he's a superstar - right? Ramirez is on the cusp of stardom - don't let a hack writer, who isn't even up on the current research fool you!
Anybody who thinks Ramirez is no better than the worst 2nd baseman in the league is, along with being intellectually dishonest, clearly biased in some way.

Nellie_Fox
07-26-2008, 02:18 AM
I didn't read the article but I do know that any sort of comment like this essentially translates to either "I'm too dumb to understand what you're talking about" or "you are making a point I can't factually refute so I'll call you names instead"

Who is "everybody"? The "cool kids"?Very nice. Don't bother to read the article before attacking the guy who pays the bills on this site.

I agree - and you make sound arguments unlike those that resort to name calling and generalizations.Says you, after you post a generalization about West without having read the article he was referring to. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

dij22
07-26-2008, 06:33 AM
Next time this guys gonna make up some bogus stats that argue Carlos Quentin has no power.:tongue:

You're stupid.

dij22
07-26-2008, 06:34 AM
Didn't you mean VEEPVORP? Plus, his BABIPIPPI is a full .7 less than David Ortiz's chinstrap.

You too.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 06:50 AM
You're stupid.

You too.You're quite mistaken about who is stupid.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 07:25 AM
I didn't read the article but I do know that any sort of comment like this essentially translates to either "I'm too dumb to understand what you're talking about" or "you are making a point I can't factually refute so I'll call you names instead"

Who is "everybody"? The "cool kids"?You don't know **** and you have no sense of humor. You're calling me dumb and Alexei crap when you don't even know the douchebag who wrote the article, didn't read said douchebag's article and are completely talking out your ass? Who the **** do you think you are? You are another reason why everybody who isn't deranged hates statheads. :neener:

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 07:39 AM
The bottom line is Alexei hits the ball extremely well--especially for a rookie--but he really does need to start walking more or he might have diminishing returns.

I don't know why that is a controversial thing to sayLOL, I love your contrarian schtick as much as the next guy. But, you know, and I know, you're a huge Alexei fan (you're not suffering from a serious mental disability like a couple unfortunates in this thread). I'm not buying the cool "dissing". :talktothehand:

Craig Grebeck
07-26-2008, 08:07 AM
LOL, I love your contrarian schtick as much as the next guy. But, you know, and I know, you're a huge Alexei fan (you're not suffering from a serious mental disability like a couple unfortunates in this thread). I'm not buying the cool "dissing". :talktothehand:
I don't think Alexei is going to fizzle out like they forecast, but I do believe he needs to be more patient. It's something that will come with more time in the league, so I'm not concerned.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 08:25 AM
I don't think Alexei is going to fizzle out like they forecast, but I do believe he needs to be more patient. It's something that will come with more time in the league, so I'm not concerned.Thank you for making a good post and understanding my sense of humor. He's a helluva player and anybody who can't see that is impaired. Like many have said, you don't walk your way off the islands. But, Alexei seems to be very, very smart. I'm not worried. :cool:

Shoeless
07-26-2008, 08:32 AM
I think I might have figured this out. Maybe this article was meant to be about Aramis Ramirez. Doesn't walk, can't field, chases bad pitches. That makes a lot more sense. :cool:

fquaye149
07-26-2008, 09:15 AM
LOL, I love your contrarian schtick as much as the next guy. But, you know, and I know, you're a huge Alexei fan (you're not suffering from a serious mental disability like a couple unfortunates in this thread). I'm not buying the cool "dissing". :talktothehand:

I never said I'm not a huge Alexei fan. I love the kid. He's a ****ing rookie and he's hitting .300 with power. Oh--and he makes some ****ing incredible plays with the glove.

But it's true that he's got like 6 walks or something. The sophomore slump is hard enough to overcome without walking. I am loathe to make a Juan Uribe comparison, so I won't. I'll just say that a lack of plate discipline is something that will catch up to a lot of players once the book starts getting out.

To assume Alexei WON'T develop plate discipline as he gets comfortable at the MLB level is silly, but it is nevertheless a concern. A .310 AVG is awesome, but a .325 OBP is not. It's not that a .325 OBP makes a .310 BA worthless, but it still means that the guy is only getting on base 32% of the time

And seriously: There's only one White Sox player I hate and he's hitting .215 right now, not .300

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 09:19 AM
Oh--and he makes some ****ing incredible plays with the glove.In Alexei's case, it's literally with the glove. :cool:

southside rocks
07-26-2008, 09:19 AM
I read this article and felt a sense of disgust. Talk about your glass half-empty.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/40907-why-alexei-ramirez-isnt-a-star

Edit: the real answer is "He doesn't play for the Yankees or the Red Sox" :rolleyes:

This is just one idiot's blog, no? I've never heard of the guy ... Any dimwit can post anything on the internet. Big whoop.

roadrunner
07-26-2008, 09:23 AM
You don't know **** and you have no sense of humor. You're calling me dumb and Alexei crap when you don't even know the douchebag who wrote the article, didn't read said douchebag's article and are completely talking out your ass? Who the **** do you think you are? You are another reason why everybody who isn't deranged hates statheads. :neener:


I'm not calling Alexei crap - I think he's a great young player who is only going to get better. I was not commenting on the substance of the article.

I don't know or care if you are dumb but your comments about "statheads" cetainly sound dumb. (relax - you can make dumb comments without actually being dumb)

I'm not a stathead so your name calling doesn't even apply to me but that doesn't mean that I can't take issue with it.

btrain929
07-26-2008, 09:28 AM
This guy needs to watch the tape of our game in the rain vs KC I believe where he made about 4 barehanded plays, 1 in like the 11th inning to save the game.

roadrunner
07-26-2008, 09:30 AM
Says you, after you post a generalization about West without having read the article he was referring to. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How is my post a generalization when it was about one person.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 10:35 AM
I don't know or care if you are dumb but your comments about "statheads" cetainly sound dumb. (relax - you can make dumb comments without actually being dumb)The problem is I didn't make a "dumb" comment. You did. You never ever read the piece of **** article. Just shut the **** up.

...
07-26-2008, 10:44 AM
The problem is I didn't make a "dumb" comment. You did. You never ever read the piece of **** article. Just shut the **** up.

Let me guess, you bought an Alexei Ramirez jersey??? :tongue:

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 10:47 AM
Let me guess, you bought an Alexei Ramirez jersey??? :tongue:Are you kidding? My arm is wider than his whole body. :D:

fquaye149
07-26-2008, 10:48 AM
Are you kidding? My arm is wider than his whole body. :D:

Not Alexei's actual jersey!

My guess is there's about 1 or 2 posters on this board who could actually fit into Alexei's size extra-lanky jersey.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 10:49 AM
Not Alexei's actual jersey!

My guess is there's about 1 or 2 posters on this board who could actually fit into Alexei's size extra-lanky jersey.It would still look all wrong. I could maybe get away with a Jenks jersey. :cool:

hose
07-26-2008, 11:16 AM
It would still look all wrong. I could maybe get away with a Jenks jersey. :cool:

So I take it the Harry Chappas jersey is a no go :D:


Can't we hold off dissing Alexei and give him a chance to get some ab's against pitchers he has at least faced before? I think he will only improve in the second half of the season.

He's hitting .314 and his obp is .333 in what is his rookie year....sounds good to me.

AnkleSox
07-26-2008, 11:22 AM
We can all take solace in the fact that no real publisher will even read 5 sentences from this guy without rolling it up onto the little bar next to the toilet.

The sun-times however....

fquaye149
07-26-2008, 11:40 AM
It would still look all wrong. I could maybe get away with a Jenks jersey. :cool:

i only wear the chris sabo rec specs.


but that's a different story.

whitesox901
07-26-2008, 02:35 PM
It would still look all wrong. I could maybe get away with a Jenks jersey. :cool:

Me Too :D:

turners56
07-26-2008, 02:56 PM
It's literally impossible to access the complete defense of a player. You can use the +/- system, but that system says Jerry Owens was one of the best center fielders last year, which he was clearly not, because he threw like a school girl. Most sabermetric stats that certain stat heads think are the god of the game do not completely measure everything. Point being, baseball is a game of inches and a game of hops and bounces, it's so hard to predict. Therefore, why the hell even have PECTOA? I like OBP, SLG, OPS, and etc, they make sense to me. But when you have VORP with an equation as long as something you learn in Calc 3, it just seems absurd.

Plus, we all know how much range Ramirez really does have...

He also has a plus arm. Outside of a couple of stupid plays he's made (like the between the legs error against KC), Alexei has been great.

His lack of walks MIGHT be an issue in the future. But what some people forget is that plate discipline can be developed as a player gets a better idea of the strike zone. Alexei's only played professional baseball full-time for a couple of months. To do what he has done is truly a marvel.

oeo
07-26-2008, 03:04 PM
He's not a star because he's been here for four months.

Adele_H
07-26-2008, 04:04 PM
Didn't you mean VEEPVORP? Plus, his BABIPIPPI is a full .7 less than David Ortiz's chinstrap.

LOLerz.


Seriously.

I reminded of some old duderino (Steve Martin?) saying something along the lines of "talking about music is like dancing about architecture"


Substitute 'infield defense stats' for 'music' in this case and it's about right.

fquaye149
07-26-2008, 04:34 PM
LOLerz.


Seriously.

I reminded of some old duderino (Steve Martin?) saying something along the lines of "talking about music is like dancing about architecture"


Substitute 'infield defense stats' for 'music' in this case and it's about right.

Yeah who would ever want to talk about music? NO ONE does that!:rolleyes:

Daver
07-26-2008, 04:52 PM
I never said I'm not a huge Alexei fan. I love the kid. He's a ****ing rookie and he's hitting .300 with power. Oh--and he makes some ****ing incredible plays with the glove.

But it's true that he's got like 6 walks or something. The sophomore slump is hard enough to overcome without walking. I am loathe to make a Juan Uribe comparison, so I won't. I'll just say that a lack of plate discipline is something that will catch up to a lot of players once the book starts getting out.

To assume Alexei WON'T develop plate discipline as he gets comfortable at the MLB level is silly, but it is nevertheless a concern. A .310 AVG is awesome, but a .325 OBP is not. It's not that a .325 OBP makes a .310 BA worthless, but it still means that the guy is only getting on base 32% of the time



Ichiro Suzuki doesn't walk much either, I don't think it affects his game much.

Adele_H
07-26-2008, 04:53 PM
Yeah who would ever want to talk about music? NO ONE does that!:rolleyes:

I think he meant talking as in "mathematically analyzing" and "proving to others" that one's tastes are more right or better.

That's the beauty of music and art, that it transcends all that ego-driven crap.

Adele_H
07-26-2008, 04:54 PM
Ichiro Suzuki doesn't walk much either, I don't think it affects his game much.

Exactly.

fquaye149
07-26-2008, 07:33 PM
Ichiro Suzuki doesn't walk much either, I don't think it affects his game much.

Ichiro routinely hits in the high .300's not the low .300's

His BA is usually as high as what would be a good OBP.

For instance, if Ichiro hits .360, that means he gets on base AT LEAST 36% of the time, which is good. However, he'll also OBP .380. Even better.

If Alexei hits .315, and only OBP's .325, that means he's getting on base 32.5% of the time, which is not particularly good.

If Alexei wants to hit .350 or higher and not walk at all then we can say "Who needs walks". But if he's going to hit .300 and not walk at all AND not steal any bases...that's not so good.

In summary, the Ichiro comparisons are pretty lame, unless you want to talk about Ichiro this year--his worst year of his career by far.

ICHIRO'S OBP BY YEAR:

2001: .381
2002: .388
2003: .352
2004: .414
2005: .350
2006: .370
2007: .396

If Alexei can find a way to consistently put up a high OBP despite not walking, GREAT! Then again

a.) Most people can't. There's a reason Ichiro's a likely HOFer

b.) He's not doing it right now.

:shrug:

kitekrazy
07-26-2008, 10:39 PM
I read this article and felt a sense of disgust. Talk about your glass half-empty.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/40907-why-alexei-ramirez-isnt-a-star

Edit: the real answer is "He doesn't play for the Yankees or the Red Sox" :rolleyes:

You have have been real bored to read that. He's a 1st year player. It's rare they are stars right away.

This team probably would not be in first place if it wasn't for the team's youngsters.

FarWestChicago
07-27-2008, 12:56 AM
If Alexei hits .315, and only OBP's .325, that means he's getting on base 32.5% of the time, which is not particularly good.Holy ****, you have a great point. Alexei should be flat out released.

Nellie_Fox
07-27-2008, 01:43 AM
Alexei is making adjustments to MLB and improving so rapidly that it's scary. I'm convinced that he'll also learn how they're trying to get him to chase bad pitches and stop that too.

However, many players have made careers out of being "bad ball hitters." Manny Sanguillen and Yogi Berra come to mind very quickly. If that's what Alexei is destined to be, I think we can live with it.

fquaye149
07-27-2008, 08:18 AM
Holy ****, you have a great point. Alexei should be flat out released.

Calm down there, big guy.

The only player on this team who shoudl be flat out released is Paul "I love Royce Clayton" Konerko

Alexei is making adjustments to MLB and improving so rapidly that it's scary. I'm convinced that he'll also learn how they're trying to get him to chase bad pitches and stop that too.

However, many players have made careers out of being "bad ball hitters." Manny Sanguillen and Yogi Berra come to mind very quickly. If that's what Alexei is destined to be, I think we can live with it.

Yogi had a 60 point discrepancy between is OBP and BA.

Vlad Guerrerro, the modern day epitome of a "bad ball hitter" also has a 60 point discrepancy between his OBP and BA.

Alexei's is 10 points. That's not saying Alexei's a bad player, just that he's a rookie who has a part of his game that could (and hopefully will) improve.

Frater Perdurabo
07-27-2008, 08:24 AM
Vlad Guerrerro, the modern day epitome of a "bad ball hitter" also has a 60 point discrepancy between his OBP and BA.

That could be explained in large part because the Angels have lacked a credible power hitter to "protect" Vlad by hitting behind him. He's the beneficiary of sort of an "unintentional intentional walk" phenomenon.

chopperjc
07-27-2008, 08:34 AM
I read the article. All I heard was envy. The guy is getting coached up he is having fun and anyone who watches him at all is excited. Is he a star? This is baseball it does take a few years. I enjoy watching because of his passion. He is going to make some errors but he is also going to make a few plays. Even the one that got away yesterday was a bad hop to Swisher but hell he got it there and if Swisher makes a play we are talking about how great it was.

cws05champ
07-27-2008, 09:15 AM
Lets see hear:
1) he's only been in the majors for 4 months
2) Only been a starter for 2 months
3) Plays for a team that doesn't get that much national attention
4) Learning a new position at the highest level

I willing to bet this guy just does not like the sox for some reason. Lets look at TCM's Avg since he's started at 2B 5/15 in SF:
May: .305
June: .355
July: .368

No he's not getting better. And anyone that has watched him play would SEE with their eyes that he has good range and would not rely only on statistics. Rediculous to say that he will not get any better...

fquaye149
07-27-2008, 09:47 AM
That could be explained in large part because the Angels have lacked a credible power hitter to "protect" Vlad by hitting behind him. He's the beneficiary of sort of an "unintentional intentional walk" phenomenon.

Of course sometimes Vlad will take a pitch out of the dirt to right field for a double.

fquaye149
07-27-2008, 09:48 AM
Lets see hear:
1) he's only been in the majors for 4 months
2) Only been a starter for 2 months
3) Plays for a team that doesn't get that much national attention
4) Learning a new position at the highest level

I willing to bet this guy just does not like the sox for some reason. Lets look at TCM's Avg since he's started at 2B 5/15 in SF:
May: .305
June: .355
July: .368

No he's not getting better. And anyone that has watched him play would SEE with their eyes that he has good range and would not rely only on statistics. Rediculous to say that he will not get any better...

Well to be fair, this a lot of outcry about "Why is Fukudome getting all the attention and Alexei isn't a star in Chicago?"

FarWestChicago
07-27-2008, 10:06 AM
Well to be fair, this a lot of outcry about "Why is Fukudome getting all the attention and Alexei isn't a star in Chicago?"Huh? What does ****dome have to do with the sheet shot that wrote that blog?

hawkjt
07-27-2008, 10:22 AM
Lets see hear:
1) he's only been in the majors for 4 months
2) Only been a starter for 2 months
3) Plays for a team that doesn't get that much national attention
4) Learning a new position at the highest level

I willing to bet this guy just does not like the sox for some reason. Lets look at TCM's Avg since he's started at 2B 5/15 in SF:
May: .305
June: .355
July: .368

No he's not getting better. And anyone that has watched him play would SEE with their eyes that he has good range and would not rely only on statistics. Rediculous to say that he will not get any better...

Unless he hits .380 in August and .395 in september..in this guys eyes he not only will not be getting better, he will be getting worse. Lets hope he keeps getting better:scratch:

fquaye149
07-27-2008, 10:29 AM
Huh? What does ****dome have to do with the sheet shot that wrote that blog?

Not a whole lot. But the whole disparity in national attention between Fukudome and Ramirez is what causes people to question why he's not yet become a "star" the way Fukudome has.

i.e. if it weren't for Fukudome getting way too much attention, it wouldn't be so glaringly obvious how little attention Ramirez is getting.

That's all :shrug:

FarWestChicago
07-27-2008, 10:34 AM
Not a whole lot. But the whole disparity in national attention between Fukudome and Ramirez is what causes people to question why he's not yet become a "star" the way Fukudome has.

i.e. if it weren't for Fukudome getting way too much attention, it wouldn't be so glaringly obvious how little attention Ramirez is getting.

That's all :shrug:I don't give a **** about ****dome or the Flubs. I was just pissed at the asshat, who couldn't possibly know less about the sport of baseball, slandering Alexei.

chaerulez
07-27-2008, 10:46 AM
Not a whole lot. But the whole disparity in national attention between Fukudome and Ramirez is what causes people to question why he's not yet become a "star" the way Fukudome has.

i.e. if it weren't for Fukudome getting way too much attention, it wouldn't be so glaringly obvious how little attention Ramirez is getting.

That's all :shrug:

Well the article doesn't talk about Ramirez's attention nationally, it's about bashing him with some stats about why he isn't a good player as we seem to think. So I think people are taking the title of the article the wrong way.

Is Alexi a star? No, I don't think anyone thinks that. Is he an above average ball player with a high upside? Yes. Plus we are paying him what $1.1 a year for the next four? To dismiss the idea that Alexi can adjust and get better is foolish. Rick Ankiel decided to be a OF and didn't get regular major league playing time until 27 and he seems to be doing fine. Jermaine Dye wasn't a regular until age 25. Highly touted prospects like Carlos Pena and Adrian Gonzalez didn't start to put it together until around that age. Same with Brandon Phillips. And Alexi's situation is different, he couldn't prove himself at this level until now. He never had the chance and he's doing it without any previous baseball experience in this country. Yes his hitting approach is still raw, but to say he won't improve just because he's 26 is stupid. Even if Alexi were to hit .260 for the rest of his White Sox contract, with the defense he plays and the fact he can play multiple positions and what we are paying him, he's still a very good value to the team.

fquaye149
07-27-2008, 11:36 AM
I don't give a **** about ****dome or the Flubs. I was just pissed at the asshat, who couldn't possibly know less about the sport of baseball, slandering Alexei.

Ok. But the article is bent on trying to prove the guy isn't a "star."

Which seems to me to suppose an unreferenced counterargument that he is a "star".

Me personally, I don't care if the guy's a star--he's showing some great power and ability to hit for average. If the walks come, great. If they don't, he's still a solid hitter and promising young second baseman.

russ99
07-27-2008, 03:27 PM
Actually, Alexei's case is a particularly good one to poke holes in the stat-heads' way of generalizing based on raw numbers.

First off, he started this season with no knowledge of major league pitchers and no real stats to go from, unlike the average American player who has 5-6 years of minor league numbers and associated scouting reports. The guy has zero book, other than unreliable Cuban league numbers, so the stat geeks don't have any preconceived notions on him, which these guys tend to rely on heavily.

Secondly, Alexei started out simply awful this year at the plate. All those generalizations on his swing and plate patience are based on those 2 months where Alexei was hitting sub .220, and hacking at a lot of bad pitches. You can say those two months "poisoned" his numbers. That he started out so poorly and made adjustments and acclimated to hitting in the majors is a huge testament to him.

Defensively, I have yet to find any stat that accurately defines the defensive quality of a player, Alexei's case especially so, since he's been playing out of position at CF and 2B all year.

Another thing the stat geeks like to do is extrapolate future performance by past stats, which in the past has shown to be completely false. PECOTA has something like a 35% success rate (worse on pitchers) so these guys are pretty much guessing.

In Alexei's case, what do you extrapolate? :tongue: His bad first 2 months, his great last 2 months, or all year? All of which are way too small a sample size anyway...

The methods described in Moneyball may have given the A's a short window of competitive advantage, but that window has passed. It's obvious nowadays that in MLB management, stats are used a a tool and only a (small) part of how players are evaluated.

All these stat guys are doing is having fun with numbers, which I really don't mind. What I do mind is when they make themselves out to supposed experts, with the superiority complex and ego to match.

kitekrazy
07-27-2008, 11:54 PM
Not a whole lot. But the whole disparity in national attention between Fukudome and Ramirez is what causes people to question why he's not yet become a "star" the way Fukudome has.

i.e. if it weren't for Fukudome getting way too much attention, it wouldn't be so glaringly obvious how little attention Ramirez is getting.

That's all :shrug:

Fuku was already a professional baseball player and a star at that. Steve Stone makes a good point that career Japanese players should not be included for rookie of the year.

fquaye149
07-28-2008, 01:29 AM
Fuku was already a professional baseball player and a star at that. Steve Stone makes a good point that career Japanese players should not be included for rookie of the year.

Well Steve Stone might want to take that point up with MLB which has inducted quite a few Japanese players as ROTY. In other words, **** Steve Stone.

But seriously BBWAA, way to elect Angel Berroa as ROTY in 2003 instead of Matsui. You totally made a statement!

That said: The real question of this thread is:

WHY IS STEVE GUTTENBURG A STAR?!?!