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dickallen15
07-25-2008, 10:45 PM
According to Cowley, Linebrink has stiffness in his shoulder and is scheduled to undergo an MRI tomorrow and likely will be placed on the DL. They are dropping like flys.

Rockabilly
07-25-2008, 10:49 PM
this is probably why we are after Huston Street

KyWhiSoxFan
07-25-2008, 10:50 PM
According to Cowley, Linebrink has stiffness in his shoulder and is scheduled to undergo an MRI tomorrow and likely will be placed on the DL. They are dropping like flys.

That would be very, very bad news. Linebrink was a key to the first half in settling the pen and setting up Jenks. They're going to have to slot Dotel into that role. That puts a lot more pressure on guys like Thornton and Logan (yikes).

Maybe KW can spring a trade, though I can't imagine who the Sox have to offer that would bring a quality, 8th-inning type of arm in exchange.

thomas35forever
07-25-2008, 10:51 PM
this is probably why we are after Huston Street
Who healthy do we have left that's tradeable?

TomParrish79
07-25-2008, 10:52 PM
http://www.steamingpileofcrap.com/images/wayne_campbell.jpeg
OH JESUS GOD NO!!

Tragg
07-25-2008, 10:55 PM
Street has had his own injury problems.
Put Dotel into the 8th inning role and if Williams can find someone cheap, go fine.
And hope Richard's okay as our 5th starter - that would help a ton.

eastchicagosoxfan
07-25-2008, 10:59 PM
Gotta roll with the punches. If he's hurt, so be it. Go to plan B. If Plan B is ****, go to Plan C. If he goes to the DL, it's a huge opportinity for someone. I want to see a guy grab that bull by the horns and wrestle it into the ground.

tacosalbarojas
07-25-2008, 11:01 PM
Just the way the bullpen has been being used, pretty obvious they've been resting Line for a while. This has been a possibility for about three weeks IMO.

Lip Man 1
07-25-2008, 11:05 PM
If Linebrink is out (I stress if) the Sox are down to four guys in the pen that you can trust. Jenks, Dotel, Thornton and maybe Carrasco.

Masset and Logan? You're kidding right??

Four guys is not enough.

Kenny should be able to pluck someone from the refuse of MLB teams like Washington, San Diego or Houston. Maybe a team looking to dump some salary for a double a prospect. (Akin to what the Sox got when they dumped Iguchi.)

We'll see but if this true, whether he wants to or not, Kenny may have to make a move or two.

This past month injury wise has sucked and it's come all of a sudden out of the blue.

Lip

salty99
07-25-2008, 11:10 PM
Hey we still have MacDougal and Wassermann! :D:

DeadMoney
07-25-2008, 11:14 PM
If Linebrink is out for an extended period of time, I think a reasonable solution would be to turn Contreras into a 1 inning bullpen guy and trade for a SP, or leave Richard in the rotation (although, I'm favorable to a deal).

Now, people will probably freak out, but what do we really expect to get out of Contreras in the SP spot? We have him signed for this PLUS next year, must pay him, and I don't expect anything more from him as a SP. If this was tried, it'd at least be an attempt to get SOMETHING out of him instead of just giving up.

I actually think he could be a decent-to-good 1 inning reliever. Hell, he may even embrace it considering it could extend his career a couple years. I would think that his stuff would probably be 94-96 MPH fastball with the nasty splitter/forkball (because he could just let it loose).

Although, maybe this would be something to try for next year and trade for someone more 'proven' in a bullpen role.

hawkjt
07-25-2008, 11:34 PM
I think either Jose or Clayton start with the other doing bullpen.
So who do we have?

Russell... my choice
Broadway..
Wasserman
?

Better try to pick someone up.

The Immigrant
07-25-2008, 11:42 PM
Meh. Linebrink has pitched just one inning since July 8th and we've managed to get by over that stretch. Hopefully he is fine, but if he's not we'll truck along until he comes back healthy for the stretch run. Dotel can take over the primary setup man role in the meantime.

cwsfannick
07-25-2008, 11:52 PM
Are either Jason Childers or Jon Link a good potential short term stop gap?

DrCrawdad
07-26-2008, 12:59 AM
Is Wassermann (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ehren%20Wassermann&pos=P&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=469164)completely out of the picture with the Sox?

Rockabilly
07-26-2008, 01:02 AM
Matt Thornton is also injured.. He has back stiffness

lukeman89
07-26-2008, 02:47 AM
signs for kenny to make a deal. dfa'ing loaiza opens up a spot on the 40?

Mohoney
07-26-2008, 08:10 AM
Four guys is not enough.

I can't think of any other team in the AL that has more than 4 quality guys.

I know that he killed your dog or something, but you need to realize that Boone Logan is a decent Major League reliever. Compare him to some of the other 5th or 6th bullpen guys in MLB.

Nick Masset does looks completely lost out there lately, but hopefully that big double play last night can help him.

cards press box
07-26-2008, 08:19 AM
Is Wassermann (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ehren%20Wassermann&pos=P&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=469164)completely out of the picture with the Sox?

I hope not but I will say that his delivery didn't look all that smooth during his latest stint with the White Sox. That made me wonder whether he was completely healthy, too.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 08:29 AM
I can't think of any other team in the AL that has more than 4 quality guys.

I know that he killed your dog or something, but you need to realize that Boone Logan is a decent Major League reliever. Compare him to some of the other 5th or 6th bullpen guys in MLB.

Nick Masset does looks completely lost out there lately, but hopefully that big double play last night can help him.Crap, here I am, the biggest fan of Lip's invented stats on this site, and I missed that one. I'm sure the Yankees or Twins have at least 32 lights out relievers in each of their bullpens. It's just further proof that Reinsy and KW are idiots.

FarWestChicago
07-26-2008, 08:30 AM
I hope not but I will say that his delivery didn't look all that smooth during his latest stint with the White Sox. That made me wonder whether he was completely healthy, too.I think it's best to go with champagne030's delusional, crazed conspiracy theory. :yup:

Chez
07-26-2008, 08:40 AM
[quote=DeadMoney;1976622]If Linebrink is out for an extended period of time, I think a reasonable solution would be to turn Contreras into a 1 inning bullpen guy and trade for a SP, or leave Richard in the rotation (although, I'm favorable to a deal).
/quote]

I like this idea. Contreras was decent out of the bullpen last season when trying to get his act together.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-26-2008, 10:02 AM
If the Sox have to use someone within their system for a spell while Linkebrink recovers, I would use Jon Link and see what he can do. He has been the best reliever the Sox have in the minors right now. I would go to him before Russell.

Carolina Kenny
07-26-2008, 10:10 AM
Hey we still have MacDougal and Wassermann! :D:

and Dewon Day!!

hose
07-26-2008, 10:53 AM
Assuming Clayton Richard stays in the starting rotation for the time being. I could see Russell getting the call to come back up if Linebrink goes on the DL.

When Jose gets off the DL I wonder if Richard would be moved to the pen?

Listening to the Score this morning the host is advocating Floyd and Fields for Justin Duchscherer.:o::o::o::o::o:

KyWhiSoxFan
07-26-2008, 11:22 AM
Assuming Clayton Richard stays in the starting rotation for the time being. I could see Russell getting the call to come back up if Linebrink goes on the DL.

When Jose gets off the DL I wonder if Richard would be moved to the pen?

Listening to the Score this morning the host is advocating Floyd and Fields for Justin Duchscherer.:o::o::o::o::o:

The Score host reads the Sun-Times. In today's edition, Cowley wrote: "Williams is said to be willing to part with a package that would include Fields and right-hander Gavin Floydfor a big-name starter."

If that were for Halladay, that would be okay. For Duchscherer, that is not a good trade.

hose
07-26-2008, 11:36 AM
The Score host reads the Sun-Times. In today's edition, Cowley wrote: "Williams is said to be willing to part with a package that would include Fields and right-hander Gavin Floydfor a big-name starter."

If that were for Halladay, that would be okay. For Duchscherer, that is not a good trade.

Seems like a lot of love out there for Duchscherer---I don't get it.

I agree about Halladay but I don't think he is going anywhere.

JB98
07-26-2008, 01:08 PM
I'm surprised this thread has remained in the clubhouse. I opened it just now, wondering if there was additional news about Linebrink. Apparently not.

Can I have my five minutes back? This thread sucks. It sucks so much that I'm too lazy to go get the tag.

ChiSoxFan7
07-26-2008, 01:29 PM
just checked the roster online and Scott is still on the team and no news.

Could the sox maybe wait until a trade or trade deadline before the move scott to the dl?

dickallen15
07-26-2008, 01:36 PM
Linebrink is going to the DL. Wasserman is being recalled.

Chez
07-26-2008, 05:02 PM
Wassermann up as per MLB.com

Noneck
07-26-2008, 05:03 PM
Any word on MRI results?

turners56
07-26-2008, 05:08 PM
Ugh, I thought Linebrink was fine after his last outing against the Rangers. Oh well, at least Bobby is throwing well. Thornton and Dotel will do for now. If anything, the 8th inning will be a lot more shakier than usual.

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2008, 05:08 PM
Wassermann up as per MLB.com
Maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool, but I liked Wassermann.

turners56
07-26-2008, 05:09 PM
Maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool, but I liked Wassermann.

Too bad his ERA was near 12 when he pitched here in May.

Chez
07-26-2008, 05:10 PM
Fire Herm! Seriously, this is not the way to start a big road trip -- losing Contreras, Crede and Linebrink. Hopefully Thornton is okay and can own the 7th inning.

turners56
07-26-2008, 05:11 PM
Fire Herm! Seriously, this is not the way to start a big road trip -- losing Contreras, Crede and Linebrink. Hopefully Thornton is okay and can own the 7th inning.

Thornton in the 7th and Dotel in the 8th can't be that bad can it?

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2008, 05:12 PM
Too bad his ERA was near 12 when he pitched here in May.
Yea but he didn't have a whole lot of work under his belt here in May...his ERA in Charlotte was one something still, so maybe he'll have better luck this time around. The thing about Wassermann is when you're a guy who only faces about one hitter (since he's a righty specialist) if he gets on you wind up getting pulled and if that guy scores your ERA balloons. But hopefully he's better this time around.

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2008, 05:13 PM
Thornton in the 7th and Dotel in the 8th can't be that bad can it?
I think Ozzie said it would be Carrasco in the 7th, but I think you might see a revolving door of guys, he might play match ups. It's not so bad as long Linebrink can come back healthy in fifteen days.

PaleHoser
07-26-2008, 05:15 PM
Linebrink on DL, Wasserman recalled (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080726&content_id=3199169&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

I would have bet the house that Dotel would be on the DL before Linebrink when they were both signed.

oeo
07-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Thornton in the 7th and Dotel in the 8th can't be that bad can it?

Thornton has been that bad lately, unfortunately.

This could be a long 4 years with Linebrink.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2008, 06:08 PM
Linebrink's MRI showed "no abnormalities" however I think it would be reasonable and prudent for Kenny to try to protect himself and the team and go out and get another relief pitcher.

I can only speak from my personal experience and whenever I had "general soreness" for as long as Scott has had (at least three weeks) there was a reason for it (i.e. calcium deposits, strained tendon and so forth.) The body just isn't "sore" for no reason, it doesn't work that way and as the Sox showed time and again in 2001, MRI's are not foolproof.

Half of the Sox bullpen right now is made up of Masset, Wassermann and Boone Logan who has reverted back to his "mental breakdown" days in 2006. (That's not a slap at Logan, he publicly admitted he had a breakdown on the mound...) To me that's not exactly inspiring confidence.

Plus if Linebrink can come back in a few weeks that gives the Sox a position of strength as the August 31st post season deadline comes. They may be able to make a move that could really help in the last 30 days of the season. Scott was worth every penny he was paid in the first half, I hope things will work out well.

One thing's for sure, this run of "minor" injuries has got to stop. Sooner or later it's going to cause major problems (if it hasn't already.)

----------

Now I have a question for Ondafarm, a guy who was paid to catch pitchers professionally (although anyone can join in)

Onda I remember both Donn Pall and Jack McDowell telling me how much just warming up takes out of a pitcher over the course of the season and that fans don't really realize this. Jack also said he'd much rather have an underworked bullpen then an overworked one.

My question deals with Ozzie's handing of the bullpen and the issues the Sox have had over the past few years.

Could Ozzie's tendency to want those "match-up's" (lefty vs. lefty and so forth) be part of the inconsistency and injuries that have hurt the Sox since the start of 2006? I know the Sox generally pitch fewer bullpen innings collectively but individual pitchers make a lot of appearances...and they have to warm up every time regardless if they face one batter or pitch two innings. There are a lot of games I think Ozzie can get by using two or three pitchers...instead he uses four or five.

Every one of those guys has to warm up and then pitch.

God bless him, Kenny Williams to me, has done everything humanly possible in this area. He's signed kids, traded for players, signed quality bullpen free agents, had a bunch of guys throwing 95 miles an hour yet he hasn't been able to get the consistent results that teams like the Angels and Minnesota do and there has to be a reason besides "luck." (and by consistent I also mean from a health standpoint)

Just wondering if you can give any insight in this area.

Lip

DrCrawdad
07-26-2008, 06:16 PM
Too bad his ERA was near 12 when he pitched here in May.

I'm not surprised that Wasserman got the call-up. He's been pitching well in AAA. He was bad for a short stretch when he was up. Well we have plenty of guys who've gone thru bad stretches.

I'm glad Wasserman is getting a shot. He need someone in the pen right now and he's a good option. Hopefully for him and the Sox he succeeds. If not then they know at least that he's not a good option and they have to pursue other options (trade or other candidates internally).

Come on Wasserman, get the job done!

hawkjt
07-26-2008, 06:21 PM
If Wasserman has been going well in the minors...that is all I need to hear.
When he is in a groove he is decent and can help hold the fort.
Now, please stay in the groove and stay healthy,efrem.

DrCrawdad
07-26-2008, 06:30 PM
If Wasserman has been going well in the minors...that is all I need to hear.
When he is in a groove he is decent and can help hold the fort.
Now, please stay in the groove and stay healthy,efrem.


http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_469164.jpg
Ehren Wassermann (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ehren%20Wassermann&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=469164)

Ok, just looked at his stats (linked above). He has a 1.67 ERA for the season with the Knights. In his last ten games he's allowed 5 ER in 11 innings. He had one game where he gave up 3 ER in one inning and that has segued his numbers.

Daver
07-26-2008, 06:35 PM
God bless him, Kenny Williams to me, has done everything humanly possible in this area. He's signed kids, traded for players, signed quality bullpen free agents, had a bunch of guys throwing 95 miles an hour yet he hasn't been able to get the consistent results that teams like the Angels and Minnesota do and there has to be a reason besides "luck." (and by consistent I also mean from a health standpoint)

Just wondering if you can give any insight in this area.

Lip


Minnesota and the Angels for the most part use home grown talent in the bullpen, the Sox generally don't, because they don't develop pitchers well, Brandon McCarthy is a glaring example of this.

Pitching is a violent non natural action, and the more you do it the more it takes it's toll, and no teams allow their pitchers to properly physically strengthen their throwing arm, because of the money at stake. It's a vicious cycle.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2008, 10:53 PM
Daver:

I know what you mean I tore up my left elbow trying to snap off a curve in high school in 40 degree weather.

It just seems that the Sox have a lot of work to do to rebuild the minor league system and to change the philosophy from the past ten years/

We'll see what happens.

Lip

Daver
07-26-2008, 10:55 PM
Daver:

I know what you mean I tore up my left elbow trying to snap off a curve in high school in 40 degree weather.

It just seems that the Sox have a lot of work to do to rebuild the minor league system and to change the philosophy from the past ten years/

We'll see what happens.

Lip

Buddy Bell has a huge task ahead of him, but I doubt it will help the pitchers.

Tragg
07-26-2008, 10:58 PM
Minnesota and the Angels for the most part use home grown talent in the bullpen, the Sox generally don't, because they don't develop pitchers well, Brandon McCarthy is a glaring example of this.

.
What do Minny and the Angels do differently than the Sox to develop their pitchers?

Daver
07-26-2008, 11:07 PM
What do Minny and the Angels do differently than the Sox to develop their pitchers?

I am not familiar with the Angels actual policies, so I really can't answer your question, but in the case of the Twins, pitchers do no get moved through their system quickly, you start a season at a level, you finish the season at that level, and finish the work you started with that pitching coach before moving on. They also won't promote a pitcher if they feel he has failed to satisfy the pitching coach on that level, he stays till the coach gives his ok to move him up.

Tragg
07-26-2008, 11:11 PM
I am not familiar with the Angels actual policies, so I really can't answer your question, but in the case of the Twins, pitchers do no get moved through their system quickly, you start a season at a level, you finish the season at that level, and finish the work you started with that pitching coach before moving on. They also won't promote a pitcher if they feel he has failed to satisfy the pitching coach on that level, he stays till the coach gives his ok to move him up.
Well, that probably boils down to scouting - good scouting means lots of good arms and prospects; if you put that program you described in place, after a few years the pipeline flows evenly, while being patient. I'd guess we don't do it because we need the pitchers in the majors (or as trade bait).

Twins probably spend more money than than the Sox do on scouting, if I recall.

EuroSox35
07-26-2008, 11:57 PM
I wonder what the Pirates would've wanted for Marte

champagne030
07-27-2008, 12:04 AM
I wonder what the Pirates would've wanted for Marte

Well they didn't get anything for Nady AND Marte so the guess is not much......

The Dude
07-27-2008, 01:06 PM
Hey we still have MacDougal and Wassermann! :D:

I think my head will explode if Mac is wearing silver and black ever again.:o::o::o::o:

Lip Man 1
07-28-2008, 12:42 PM
Did anyone else see Joe Cowley's story today in the Sun-Times today? (Monday)

At the very end of it, almost as a "throwaway" line he says that Linebrink may be on the DL longer then anticipated.

He offers no other reason or comments on this.

Lip

CHIsoxNation
07-28-2008, 12:46 PM
Did anyone else see Joe Cowley's story today in the Sun-Times today? (Monday)

At the very end of it, almost as a "throwaway" line he says that Linebrink may be on the DL longer then anticipated.

He offers no other reason or comments on this.

Lip

Yeah I saw that too. I haven't heard anything else mentioned anywhere. Doesn't sound good though.

Jim Shorts
07-28-2008, 12:50 PM
Well, that probably boils down to scouting - good scouting means lots of good arms and prospects; if you put that program you described in place, after a few years the pipeline flows evenly, while being patient. I'd guess we don't do it because we need the pitchers in the majors (or as trade bait).

Twins probably spend more money than than the Sox do on scouting, if I recall.

And a lot of trust in your minor league pitching coaches....

Gammons Peter
07-28-2008, 01:16 PM
Doesn't look good. He has pitched exactly one inning (7/22) over the last THREE weeks.

ondafarm
07-28-2008, 01:33 PM
----------

Now I have a question for Ondafarm, a guy who was paid to catch pitchers professionally (although anyone can join in)

Onda I remember both Donn Pall and Jack McDowell telling me how much just warming up takes out of a pitcher over the course of the season and that fans don't really realize this. Jack also said he'd much rather have an underworked bullpen then an overworked one.

My question deals with Ozzie's handing of the bullpen and the issues the Sox have had over the past few years.

Could Ozzie's tendency to want those "match-up's" (lefty vs. lefty and so forth) be part of the inconsistency and injuries that have hurt the Sox since the start of 2006? I know the Sox generally pitch fewer bullpen innings collectively but individual pitchers make a lot of appearances...and they have to warm up every time regardless if they face one batter or pitch two innings. There are a lot of games I think Ozzie can get by using two or three pitchers...instead he uses four or five.

Every one of those guys has to warm up and then pitch.

God bless him, Kenny Williams to me, has done everything humanly possible in this area. He's signed kids, traded for players, signed quality bullpen free agents, had a bunch of guys throwing 95 miles an hour yet he hasn't been able to get the consistent results that teams like the Angels and Minnesota do and there has to be a reason besides "luck." (and by consistent I also mean from a health standpoint)

Just wondering if you can give any insight in this area.

Lip

A couple of things to say. First, absolutely agree with Donn Pall and Jack McDowell, warming up is stressful and the pitches thrown during that process do count against a relief pitcher's pitch count.

Second, I do agree with your criticism of Guillen's employment of the relief corps, vis-avis employing too many pitchers in games. Do I see this as a cause of the Sox depletion rate of relief pitching? That is hard to say. To the extent where it is not helping, yes, but is it the main cause, that's a much bigger statement. Be aware, I take a fair amount of grief and being called a hypocrite for my consistent complaint that Ozzie doesn't remove starters quick enough but also uses too many relievers in games. I see the two as logically consistent, but many posters here appear to disagree.

If I was asked to name what I consider the biggest issue with regards to the Sox tendency to "burn thru the pen" then I would name this. The difference between stressful appearances and non-stressful appearances. A non-stressful appearance is where a relief pitcher starts an inning and has a fairly specific assignment/ bounds. Linebrink actually got a lot of these earlier. He'd pitch the eigth and start that inning. He would only get pulled if the situation got to a tough lefty needing out lefty specialist or Linebrink truly was suffering. Linebrink only has two losses and 3 blown saves so clearly he was doing well in these non-pressure situations.

Stressful (pressure) appearances are when you come in to a one-run game, mid-inning with the tying and winning runs in scoring position or something like that.

This distinction may sound arbitrary, but to pitchers it is not. A situation where you can get hurt by a bleeder thru the infield is stressful. A situation where only hanging a breaking ball which gets hit out is non-stressful.

The best managers I know strive to avoid stressful situations for relief pitchers because that wears guys out much faster than non-stressful appearances.

Pitching one non-stressful inning two days out of three shouldn't wear a decent pitcher down. Pitching out of jams two days out of three will wear most guys down.

As to Ozzie's fascination with "matchups". I don't understand it. Occasionally, there are guys who don't hit one side or the other very well at all, but most good hitters do a pretty decent job of hitting guys throwing from both sides. The one big exception is sidearmers. They tend to be very difficult to face for one side or the other. But the Sox don't have any. I actually think pitching style or selection of pitches or speed are much more important factors in throwing off the opposition batter's rhytm. Not that I advocate resigning Shingo, but having him pitch the seventh and Bobby close the ninth would make Bobby's heat look that much more devastating. Then again, they are both right-handers.

Frater Perdurabo
07-28-2008, 01:36 PM
A couple of things to say. First, absolutely agree with Donn Pall and Jack McDowell, warming up is stressful and the pitches thrown during that process do count against a relief pitcher's pitch count.

Second, I do agree with your criticism of Guillen's employment of the relief corps, vis-avis employing too many pitchers in games. Do I see this as a cause of the Sox depletion rate of relief pitching? That is hard to say. To the extent where it is not helping, yes, but is it the main cause, that's a much bigger statement. Be aware, I take a fair amount of grief and being called a hypocrite for my consistent complaint that Ozzie doesn't remove starters quick enough but also uses too many relievers in games. I see the two as logically consistent, but many posters here appear to disagree.

If I was asked to name what I consider the biggest issue with regards to the Sox tendency to "burn thru the pen" then I would name this. The difference between stressful appearances and non-stressful appearances. A non-stressful appearance is where a relief pitcher starts an inning and has a fairly specific assignment/ bounds. Linebrink actually got a lot of these earlier. He'd pitch the eigth and start that inning. He would only get pulled if the situation got to a tough lefty needing out lefty specialist or Linebrink truly was suffering. Linebrink only has two losses and 3 blown saves so clearly he was doing well in these non-pressure situations.

Stressful (pressure) appearances are when you come in to a one-run game, mid-inning with the tying and winning runs in scoring position or something like that.

This distinction may sound arbitrary, but to pitchers it is not. A situation where you can get hurt by a bleeder thru the infield is stressful. A situation where only hanging a breaking ball which gets hit out is non-stressful.

The best managers I know strive to avoid stressful situations for relief pitchers because that wears guys out much faster than non-stressful appearances.

Pitching one non-stressful inning two days out of three shouldn't wear a decent pitcher down. Pitching out of jams two days out of three will wear most guys down.

As to Ozzie's fascination with "matchups". I don't understand it. Occasionally, there are guys who don't hit one side or the other very well at all, but most good hitters do a pretty decent job of hitting guys throwing from both sides. The one big exception is sidearmers. They tend to be very difficult to face for one side or the other. But the Sox don't have any. I actually think pitching style or selection of pitches or speed are much more important factors in throwing off the opposition batter's rhytm. Not that I advocate resigning Shingo, but having him pitch the seventh and Bobby close the ninth would make Bobby's heat look that much more devastating. Then again, they are both right-handers.

Great analysis, Onda. I trust your analysis more than 99% of the "experts" (in their own minds) here at WSI.

ondafarm
07-28-2008, 01:39 PM
If I could suggest that everybody watching the Sox series in Minnesota notice one thing. How many stressful vs non-stressful relief appearances do Ozzie and Gardenhire demand of their pens?

Obviously, a major league manager makes dozens of decisions every day. Management of the relief corps is one of the toughest and my criticism of Ozzie has been pretty consistent. I take a lot of grief for that. Ozzie is great at certain aspects of the manager's game. I do not consider his management of the relief corp to be something he is very adept at.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-28-2008, 01:52 PM
If I could suggest that everybody watching the Sox series in Minnesota notice one thing. How many stressful vs non-stressful relief appearances do Ozzie and Gardenhire demand of their pens?

Obviously, a major league manager makes dozens of decisions every day. Management of the relief corps is one of the toughest and my criticism of Ozzie has been pretty consistent. I take a lot of grief for that. Ozzie is great at certain aspects of the manager's game. I do not consider his management of the relief corp to be something he is very adept at.

I would think Linebrink agrees with you. He was rode hard and put away wet too often in the first half. He had 41 appearances in the 1st half. Not coincidentally, 1 so far in the 2nd half.

Boone Logan actually looked good early, but as he has made more appearances, he is becoming less effective. He has 44 appearances this year. And he stinks lately.

And Masset also has been less effective as the season has progressed. He has had 31 outings, plus he's up and down a lot because he is often asked to come in early if someone seems like they're in trouble.

Thornton,who has 45 outings, started to have back problems, and Dotel has 44 appearances. If anything happens to those two, the Sox are in deep trouble.

ondafarm
07-28-2008, 02:45 PM
Before I receive the obvious question post, let me answer it.

Closers are different. They normally get better the more days they throw in a row.

But there is a physiological difference. Closers rely on their large muscles to throw one basic pitch, a blazing fastball. Large muscles respond to daily work.

Most pitchers apart from closers, rely on their small arm, hand and wrist muscles for fine motor control to throw a variety of pitches. These muscles get fatigued and need more rest.

Notice this: Bobby Jenks, when given rest recovers his 12-6 curveball, which he doesn't have when he comes in on consecutive days. Curveballs require fine motor control, fastballs (and circle changes) require just large muscle strength.

Noneck
07-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Before I receive the obvious question post, let me answer it.

Closers are different. They normally get better the more days they throw in a row.

But there is a physiological difference. Closers rely on their large muscles to throw one basic pitch, a blazing fastball. Large muscles respond to daily work.

Most pitchers apart from closers, rely on their small arm, hand and wrist muscles for fine motor control to throw a variety of pitches. These muscles get fatigued and need more rest.

Notice this: Bobby Jenks, when given rest recovers his 12-6 curveball, which he doesn't have when he comes in on consecutive days. Curveballs require fine motor control, fastballs (and circle changes) require just large muscle strength.

Since the Sox have 3 relief pitchers that rely on the fastball, Jenks, Dotel and Thornton, are you saying that it is ok to work them a lot now?

ondafarm
07-28-2008, 03:57 PM
Since the Sox have 3 relief pitchers that rely on the fastball, Jenks, Dotel and Thornton, are you saying that it is ok to work them a lot now?

While Dotel relies on his fastball, as in, sometimes, its the only thing he can throw for strikes, to be effective he needs to change speeds, even if just for show. So for him, no.

Thornton employs his straight change with great effectiveness and even though his fastball is his out pitch, he needs that change. The straight change burns up your fine motor muscles as bad as any breaking ball so for him the answer is also no.

For Jenks, he comes on and if rested, mixes in that big deuce. If not rested, he just throws fastballs. I have never made contact with a 98 mph fastball so I can't tell you how hard it is. But assume it's pretty hard.

To summarize. No, it's not okay to do that. Of the three the guy most effective when tired is Jenks.

Vazquez also depends on his fastball, but you didn't intepret my post as approving of using him every day did you?

Noneck
07-28-2008, 04:02 PM
Vazquez also depends on his fastball, but you didn't intepret my post as approving of using him every day did you?

No, I was just hoping that the most reliable bullpen staff could be rode at this point. I guess they can't, thanks for the explanation.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2008, 11:40 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080728&content_id=3215755&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

Hitmen77
07-30-2008, 11:37 PM
Here's the latest on Linebrink (plus a quick Crede update in the last paragraph):

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080730&content_id=3226679&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

BUMMER
07-31-2008, 11:24 PM
Back around April & May, a lot of people wanted to give KW the Exec of the Year Award for the improvement of the bullpen over last year. Well, it's a long season and I'd say our bullpen is on life-support. Relievers' need to turn it around pronto. They've coughed up a lot of leads.

PS...and no more relievers that the Royals discard...thank you

Frater Perdurabo
07-31-2008, 11:54 PM
Losing Jenks, and having to use Linebrink as the closer, and then losing Linebrink himself, it really what did in this bullpen.

Things were going swimmingly when Linebrink was nails in the 8th and Jenks closed out the ninth.

Once that was messed up, the whole pen got overused, misused and everyone started sucking.

JB98
07-31-2008, 11:58 PM
Losing Jenks, and having to use Linebrink as the closer, and then losing Linebrink himself, it really what did in this bullpen.

Things were going swimmingly when Linebrink was nails in the 8th and Jenks closed out the ninth.

Once that was messed up, the whole pen got overused, misused and everyone started sucking.

Absolutely. Losing a closer to injury just creates chaos. Guys got out of their comfort zones, experienced some failure and now a couple guys have lost confidence.

Dotel sucked tonight, but I'm honestly not worried about him. He has his bad moments, but it seems like he's mentally tough enough to put a poor outing behind him quickly.

Our two lefty relievers seem to allow one bad outing to become two, and two bad outings to become three.

BeviBall!
08-01-2008, 08:40 AM
Absolutely. Losing a closer to injury just creates chaos. Guys got out of their comfort zones, experienced some failure and now a couple guys have lost confidence.

Also, having a manager refuse to use a former closer as the closer had a little something to do with it as well.

Adele_H
08-01-2008, 01:42 PM
Be aware, I take a fair amount of grief and being called a hypocrite for my consistent complaint that Ozzie doesn't remove starters quick enough but also uses too many relievers in games. I see the two as logically consistent, but many posters here appear to disagree.
.

Danks doesn't maintain his stuff/focus deep into games, not yet. Leaving him an inning too long in Texas and Detroit only further underscored that.

And Thornton/Dotel are probably much more effective not having to come into a jam.

Last night was a perfect example of what you're talking about, ondafarm.

Gardenhire had presence of mind to remove Baker and trust Jesse Crain with the 7th inning - even though stats say that Baker is great at the Metrodome.

Hitmen77
08-09-2008, 12:41 AM
Latest news is that Linebrink is expected to be out until at least the end of the month: :(:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080807-scott-linebrink-chicago-white-sox,1,4397719.story

Noneck
08-09-2008, 12:51 AM
Latest news is that Linebrink is expected to be out until at least the end of the month: :(:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080807-scott-linebrink-chicago-white-sox,1,4397719.story


And they didn't try to get Chad Bradford, that is really sad.

Konerko05
08-09-2008, 12:52 AM
Latest news is that Linebrink is expected to be out until at least the end of the month: :(:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080807-scott-linebrink-chicago-white-sox,1,4397719.story

That is horrible news. At this point, I'm just going to assume he isn't coming back at all. Getting him back will be a bonus.

ChiSoxGirl
08-09-2008, 12:53 AM
Latest news is that Linebrink is expected to be out until at least the end of the month: :(:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080807-scott-linebrink-chicago-white-sox,1,4397719.story

Damn. This is so not good. :(:

DickAllen72
08-09-2008, 02:12 AM
And they didn't try to get Chad Bradford, that is really sad.
How do you know?

y2j2785
08-09-2008, 02:16 AM
How do you know?

Its probably because Tampa Bay claimed him and they have a better record than us so if we and TB had claimed him then we would have won the claim because we have the lesser record but since Tampa Bay won the claim that most likely means that we did not try to claim him.

DickAllen72
08-09-2008, 02:31 AM
Its probably because Tampa Bay claimed him and they have a better record than us so if we and TB had claimed him then we would have won the claim because we have the lesser record but since Tampa Bay won the claim that most likely means that we did not try to claim him.
Do they go by the current record or last year's won/loss record? If they go by the current record, does that mean that every day the order in which waiver claims are won changes with the results of each day's games? I was never sure which was the rule. I always thought it goes by the previous year's final records.

Anyway, I got into a little bit of a disagreement with a co-worker today who was ragging on KW. We were both discussing how Javy Vazquez doesn't seem to pitch well during important games. We also agreed on the fact that Junior can no longer play defense. But then my co-worker started complaining that KW screwed up because "He should have traded for a good starting pitcher instead of Griffey." I tried to explain to him that KW was most probably trying to get a "good pitcher" and the fact that he made the Griffey trade was not the reason why he didn't obtain a pitcher.

Just because the Sox got Griffey but didn't get help for the bullpen or starting staff doesn't mean that Griffey was KW's priority over pitching. I know that wasn't NoNeck's point, but I guess I just wanted to make the point that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

chisoxfanatic
08-09-2008, 02:39 AM
Do they go by the current record or last year's won/loss record? If they go by the current record, does that mean that every day the order in which waiver claims are won changes with the results of each day's games? I was never sure which was the rule. I always thought it goes by the previous year's final records.
The previous year's final records only apply to waiver claims done in the first month of the season. After that, it is based on the current standings. And, if a player is put on waivers, the teams in his league get a crack at him first before the other league's teams. It always goes up the list from worst to best records in said player's league, then worst to best records in the other league.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2008, 02:47 AM
Latest news is that Linebrink is expected to be out until at least the end of the month: :(:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080807-scott-linebrink-chicago-white-sox,1,4397719.story


Well, typical of a Chicago franchise giving us mis-information on medical status of the players. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Kenny on Hit and Run (Score Show) a few weeks back explaining that both Crede and Linebrink where taking a trip to the DL as a "pre-caution" and that both could have continued playing thru their injuries? Now both aren't even close to making rehab stops in the minors.

This pisses me off.
:angry:

chisoxfanatic
08-09-2008, 02:52 AM
Well, typical of a Chicago franchise giving us mis-information on medical status of the players. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Kenny on Hit and Run (Score Show) a few weeks back explaining that both Crede and Linebrink where taking a trip to the DL as a "pre-caution" and that both could have continued playing thru their injuries? Now both aren't even close to making rehab stops in the minors.

This pisses me off.
:angry:
I'm getting sick of not knowing when they're going to be back too. The bullpen needs a healthy Linebrink badly. It's bee nice that Uribe's done pretty well at 3B in Crede's absence (although his bat isn't quite like Crede's). One thing that's for sure is that Scott Borass is gonna probably have a harder time in negotiating a contract for Crede because of the last two years. Crede will get a contract; but, not for as much money as he could've had if it weren't for his back problems. I'd like the Sox to try to retain him. It's becoming more possible, I think.

LoveYourSuit
08-09-2008, 03:22 AM
I'm getting sick of not knowing when they're going to be back too. The bullpen needs a healthy Linebrink badly. It's bee nice that Uribe's done pretty well at 3B in Crede's absence (although his bat isn't quite like Crede's). One thing that's for sure is that Scott Borass is gonna probably have a harder time in negotiating a contract for Crede because of the last two years. Crede will get a contract; but, not for as much money as he could've had if it weren't for his back problems. I'd like the Sox to try to retain him. It's becoming more possible, I think.


I can almost see Crede taking a 1 yr deal with Sox just to showcase himself for that bigger deal.

white sox bill
08-09-2008, 09:25 AM
Oz said Plan B. I hope Plan B doesn't include Logan.

CHISOXFAN13
08-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Oz said Plan B. I hope Plan B doesn't include Logan.


You saw Plan B last night.

hi im skot
08-09-2008, 01:21 PM
You saw Plan B last night.

And "Plan B" has been solid most of the year. There was an unfortunate hiccup, but I trust Dotel more than anyone else who could serve as the set-up man.

CHISOXFAN13
08-09-2008, 01:22 PM
And "Plan B" has been solid most of the year. There was an unfortunate hiccup, but I trust Dotel more than anyone else who could serve as the set-up man.

Yep. And Carrasco hasn't been half bad pitching in what was Dotel's spot. If Line does come back healthy then we will be in really good shape bullpen wise.

white sox bill
08-09-2008, 03:19 PM
Agreed, plan B was a hiccup. That shot off Dotel was a goner when it hit his bat. Hawk called it as it cruised past third base.

balke
08-09-2008, 03:22 PM
That is horrible news. At this point, I'm just going to assume he isn't coming back at all. Getting him back will be a bonus.

Eh, it seems like Linebrink has been pretty honest about his injury so far. I think he'll be back in Early September. He originally said it would be mid august at the earliest.