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View Full Version : After 100 games AL MVP?


getonbckthr
07-23-2008, 09:22 PM
Francisco Rodriguez
Carlos Quentin
Josh Hamilton

Railsplitter
07-23-2008, 09:26 PM
Quenten, no doubt.

BadBobbyJenks
07-23-2008, 09:34 PM
Get:

Krod? Why do you think he has been more valuable than TCQ?

getonbckthr
07-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Get:

Krod? Why do you think he has been more valuable than TCQ?
Anaheim has 62 wins. Of those 62 wins K-Rod has saved 42. In turn you look at say the Cardinals. They have 23 blown saves. K-Rod's 42 saves already is insane. He has had a major hand in 66% of their victories. Based on that and the fact Quentin and Hamilton are close to each other I give K-Rod the nod.

twentywontowin
07-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Josh Hamilton.

He is keeping a mediocre team near a playoff spot.

sox1970
07-23-2008, 09:45 PM
Josh Hamilton.

He is keeping a mediocre team near a playoff spot.

Yeah. 10.5 out in the division. 7.5 out in the wildcard. Real close. :rolleyes:

BadBobbyJenks
07-23-2008, 09:53 PM
Anaheim has 62 wins. Of those 62 wins K-Rod has saved 42. In turn you look at say the Cardinals. They have 23 blown saves. K-Rod's 42 saves already is insane. He has had a major hand in 66% of their victories. Based on that and the fact Quentin and Hamilton are close to each other I give K-Rod the nod.

I can see that. To me though to win an MVP as a reliever you better have a special year. Gange 55 straight special or breaking Thigpen's record with dominating numbers.

Krod has 3 blown saves, not terrible and 47 ks to 28 walks. If he breaks the record he could change my mind, but I don't think I could vote for him.

thomas35forever
07-23-2008, 10:15 PM
It should be Quentin because he could be the one that propels his team to the playoffs. Otherwise, Big Mac would've won MVP in '98 and not Sham-ME.

gobears1987
07-23-2008, 10:42 PM
Dye needs to be on the list too.

twentywontowin
07-23-2008, 10:42 PM
Yeah. 10.5 out in the division. 7.5 out in the wildcard. Real close. :rolleyes:

Without him, they are last in the AL. If they tear off a few games, they are back in a Wild Card spot.

But I forgot, everyone on here is only concerned about what is going on now, not about the long haul.

While Quentin is very good, he has supporting tools around him leading the team to victories. Josh Hamilton is putting the Rangers on his back and taking them across the finish line.

It is Most VALUABLE Player, and Josh Hamilton is about as valuable as you get for any AL team.

BadBobbyJenks
07-23-2008, 10:55 PM
Without him, they are last in the AL. If they tear off a few games, they are back in a Wild Card spot.

But I forgot, everyone on here is only concerned about what is going on now, not about the long haul.

While Quentin is very good, he has supporting tools around him leading the team to victories. Josh Hamilton is putting the Rangers on his back and taking them across the finish line.

It is Most VALUABLE Player, and Josh Hamilton is about as valuable as you get for any AL team.

Ian Kinsler: .325 .383 14 hrs, 60 rbis, 38 bb, 25 sb
Milton Bradley: .309 .431 19 hrs, 57 rbis, 58 bb, 4 sb
Josh Hamilton: .305 .362 22 hrs, 98 rbis, 29 bb, 7 sb

He has some help and that is without Michael Young's stats.

twentywontowin
07-23-2008, 11:00 PM
Ian Kinsler: .325 .383 14 hrs, 60 rbis, 38 bb, 25 sb
Milton Bradley: .309 .431 19 hrs, 57 rbis, 58 bb, 4 sb
Josh Hamilton: .305 .362 22 hrs, 98 rbis, 29 bb, 7 sb

He has some help and that is without Michael Young's stats.

In my defense, I didn't realize the numbers of his other teammates. I always assumed the Rangers as no talent hacks.

I guess I would have to change my vote for Quentin since the Sox are closer to a playoff berth.

hellview
07-23-2008, 11:03 PM
I don't know why Ian Kinsler isn't an option, he has the highiest VORP in the AL.

AnkleSox
07-23-2008, 11:03 PM
The Sox are probably fighting with the Indians and Royals for last place without Quentin.

That may be an exaggeration, but i'm not too sure.

BadBobbyJenks
07-23-2008, 11:05 PM
I don't know why Ian Kinsler isn't an option, he has the highiest VORP in the AL.

I don't know what VORP is, but he is having one of the quietest monster seasons in recent memory. The first couple of months everyone was talking about Chase Utley and then everyone was talking about his teammate Josh Hamilton.

hellview
07-23-2008, 11:09 PM
I don't know what VORP is, but he is having one of the quietest monster seasons in recent memory. The first couple of months everyone was talking about Chase Utley and then everyone was talking about his teammate Josh Hamilton.

VORP is Value Over Replacement Player. It pretty much breaks down a total value a player has to his team.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204031

Check it out.

oeo
07-23-2008, 11:09 PM
In my defense, I didn't realize the numbers of his other teammates. I always assumed the Rangers as no talent hacks.

Did you miss the two series against them? They have the best offense in all of baseball.

twentywontowin
07-23-2008, 11:12 PM
Did you miss the two series against them? They have the best offense in all of baseball.

I spend half my life on airplanes, and the other half at the golf course. No time to devote to the Rangers. :D:

Craig Grebeck
07-23-2008, 11:15 PM
Kinsler

PushinWeight
07-24-2008, 12:16 AM
As of tonight, July 24th, it has to go to TCQ.

TDog
07-24-2008, 12:40 AM
Anaheim has 62 wins. Of those 62 wins K-Rod has saved 42. In turn you look at say the Cardinals. They have 23 blown saves. K-Rod's 42 saves already is insane. He has had a major hand in 66% of their victories. Based on that and the fact Quentin and Hamilton are close to each other I give K-Rod the nod.

That doesn't make him more valuable. He has blown four saves. The Angels could be getting the same production out of a bullpen by committee. Today Rodriguez got a save by coming in with two outs, a runner on second and a three-run lead. He threw one pitch. He only came into the game because he had a chance for a save, not because his team needed him to win.

Rodriguez hasn't pitched more than one inning in any appearance. If he were getting two- and three-inning saves, it might be different.

doublem23
07-24-2008, 06:47 AM
I don't know why Ian Kinsler isn't an option, he has the highiest VORP in the AL.

Because no one takes VORP into account when they determine the MVP.

hellview
07-24-2008, 07:12 AM
Because no one takes VORP into account when they determine the MVP.

Well that's too bad cause it's the best way to figure out a players worth and how much he's helping his team.

doublem23
07-24-2008, 07:13 AM
Well that's too bad cause it's the best way to figure out a players worth and how much he's helping his team.

Sure it is. :thumbsup:

Craig Grebeck
07-24-2008, 07:23 AM
All ripping of VORP aside, it's hard to argue against Kinsler at this point.

Edit: I hadn't checked his home/away splits prior to my post earlier in the thread, so I may have to reconsider. He's pretty ordinary on the road.

SouthSoxFan
07-24-2008, 07:32 AM
All ripping of VORP aside, it's hard to argue against Kinsler at this point.

Except for the fact his team isn't making the playoffs, which is a huge factor in MVP voting.

hellview
07-24-2008, 07:50 AM
Except for the fact his team isn't making the playoffs, which is a huge factor in MVP voting.

What the hell does it matter if his team makes the playoffs, he doesn't control the whole team all he can do is go out there and have the best season he can.

Hitmen77
07-24-2008, 08:27 AM
What the hell does it matter if his team makes the playoffs, he doesn't control the whole team all he can do is go out there and have the best season he can.

Because this is the MVP award, not the "Player of the Year" award. I think the purpose of this award has been lost on many because too many people seem to think it should go to the best position player in the league regardless of how his team does.

Classic example is Andre Dawson winning the MVP in '87 for the LAST PLACE Cubs. No doubt Dawson had an incredible season, but no way he should have been the most valuable player if his team was dead last. It wasn't his fault that the rest of his team sucked, but that's life. Dawson's a great guy, but he shouldn't have been MVP.

Heck, why not scrap the sportswriters voting altogether - from now on just give it to the guy with the highest VORP.

doublem23
07-24-2008, 08:34 AM
What the hell does it matter if his team makes the playoffs, he doesn't control the whole team all he can do is go out there and have the best season he can.

Then let him win the TSN "Player of the Year Award," (although, as has already been pointed out, look at his home/road splits), but the MVP Award is something more than just "best player," unless you truly have an extraordinary season (if Josh Hamilton could have made a serious push at the Triple Crown, he'd get serious consideration).

All statistical data, from the elementary such as BA, OBP, and slugging percentage to VORP and other rest of the sabermetric stats have their place, and while ignoring them completely would be foolish, it would be just as foolish to use them as end-all, unquestionable measuring stick.

They're all parts of th big equation.

CashMan
07-24-2008, 08:39 AM
Then let him win the TSN "Player of the Year Award," (although, as has already been pointed out, look at his home/road splits), but the MVP Award is something more than just "best player," unless you truly have an extraordinary season (if Josh Hamilton could have made a serious push at the Triple Crown, he'd get serious consideration).

All statistical data, from the elementary such as BA, OBP, and slugging percentage to VORP and other rest of the sabermetric stats have their place, and while ignoring them completely would be foolish, it would be just as foolish to use them as end-all, unquestionable measuring stick.

They're all parts of th big equation.


Did they sneak into the title of MVP "Can only win if team makes playoffs"?

doublem23
07-24-2008, 08:41 AM
Did they sneak into the title of MVP "Can only win if team makes playoffs"?

:?:

I don't understand, it already says that. Don't think it was named Most Valuable Player and not Player of the Year by mistake. Though I don't think its required your team make the post-season, yes, team success should play a factor in the voting.

Tragg
07-24-2008, 08:43 AM
I don't know why Ian Kinsler isn't an option, he has the highiest VORP in the AL.
That's because of his position.

SouthSoxFan
07-24-2008, 08:58 AM
That doesn't make him more valuable. He has blown four saves. The Angels could be getting the same production out of a bullpen by committee. Today Rodriguez got a save by coming in with two outs, a runner on second and a three-run lead. He threw one pitch. He only came into the game because he had a chance for a save, not because his team needed him to win.

Rodriguez hasn't pitched more than one inning in any appearance. If he were getting two- and three-inning saves, it might be different.

Agree completely. The Saves statistic is extremely overrated. The idea that he has had a "major" role in 42 wins is silly. Last night is a prime example. Getting one out in a game is not playing a major role. He has 49 appearances, and about 45 innings pitched. A decent starter logs that much work in 5 weeks.

hellview
07-24-2008, 09:22 AM
That's because of his position.

Well duhhhh...ofcourse when you play a up the middle position you're gonna be more vauable if you can hit.

Eddo144
07-24-2008, 10:50 AM
Wow, a lot going on here.

K-Rod: no way. First of all, relievers rarely deserve the Cy Young, let alone the MVP award. Secondly, I'd take Nathan ahead of Rodriguez.

TCQ: Right now, he probably would win the MVP, for one legitimate reasons and two arguable reasons.

Legit: He's having a tremendous season, one of the top five in the AL.
Arguable1: The three Rangers having tremendous seasons will split votes.
Arguable2: The Sox are in first place.

Kinsler, Bradley, Hamilton: All are legitimate choices.
I'd probably vote for Kinsler, with VORP swaying me. VORP isn't really used by voters, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
Hamilton, I feel, is the weakest of the three, with his case being enhanced by RBI, which are completely situational. His feel-good story (Why is quitting heroin, then having a great season "feel-good", while quitting PEDs, then having a great season, damning?) will help his standing with voters.
Bradley will be hurt by his volatile personality and previous mediocrity. Some voters will see this as a flukish year, and they very well may be correct.

turners56
07-24-2008, 10:57 AM
I think Hamilton is probably the winner out of the three. It also has a lot to do with how the Sox end up in the standings in October. If the Sox finish first, I think Quentin and Dye should both be top 5 in MVP voting with one of them possibly winning.

However, you can make the same case for Quentin as you can for Hamilton. They both have great lineups around them. The Texas lineup is obviously better, but it's not like the Sox' lineup is below average or anything. Hamilton has Young, Kinsler, and Bradley to protect him, while Quentin has Dye, Thome, and Pierzynski to protect him. Hamilton obviously has the better protection, but you can make a case for both guys.

I know Kinsler has been getting a lot of talk for MVP, especially lately, but I still think Hamilton contributes the most to that team.

turners56
07-24-2008, 10:59 AM
Wow, a lot going on here.

K-Rod: no way. First of all, relievers rarely deserve the Cy Young, let alone the MVP award. Secondly, I'd take Nathan ahead of Rodriguez.

TCQ: Right now, he probably would win the MVP, for one legitimate reasons and two arguable reasons.

Legit: He's having a tremendous season, one of the top five in the AL.
Arguable1: The three Rangers having tremendous seasons will split votes.
Arguable2: The Sox are in first place.

Kinsler, Bradley, Hamilton: All are legitimate choices.
I'd probably vote for Kinsler, with VORP swaying me. VORP isn't really used by voters, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
Hamilton, I feel, is the weakest of the three, with his case being enhanced by RBI, which are completely situational. His feel-good story (Why is quitting heroin, then having a great season "feel-good", while quitting PEDs, then having a great season, damning?) will help his standing with voters.
Bradley will be hurt by his volatile personality and previous mediocrity. Some voters will see this as a flukish year, and they very well may be correct.

K-Rod's had better years before. It just so happens he's had a lot of opportunities this season with the Angels playing a lot of close ball games. Nathan and Rivera have been way better this season.

btrain929
07-24-2008, 11:00 AM
That doesn't make him more valuable. He has blown four saves. The Angels could be getting the same production out of a bullpen by committee. Today Rodriguez got a save by coming in with two outs, a runner on second and a three-run lead. He threw one pitch. He only came into the game because he had a chance for a save, not because his team needed him to win.

Rodriguez hasn't pitched more than one inning in any appearance. If he were getting two- and three-inning saves, it might be different.

Bold #1: :o:

Bold #2: Name one closer pitching in the bigs today that routinely has 2-3 inning saves......:rolleyes:

He is having a hell of a year, and has a serious shot at breaking Thigpen's record. Give him some credit.

RockyMtnSoxFan
07-24-2008, 11:03 AM
"K-Rod" isn't even the best closer in the league. In fact, you could argue that he's the fourth best. Based on ERA, WHIP, and K:BB ratio, Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan, and Jonathan Papelbon are all much better this year. You could argue that Bobby is better this season too, though he has way fewer saves and innings pitched.

Basically, "K-Rod" is getting lucky, and his team and manager are giving him the opportunity to pick up more saves than a closer of his ability would normally get. Which brings up another point: if Mike Scioscia is such a great manager, wouldn't he be using Rodriguez differently? All these save guarantee that the Angels won't be able to re-sign him. If Scioscia didn't put him in with two outs in the ninth just because it's a save situation, maybe the Angels would have a shot.

chaerulez
07-24-2008, 11:18 AM
This isn't even K-Rod's best season. Yeah he's getting the saves, but he's not having the ridiculous closer season that Gagne had in 2003 or Eck's 1990 season.

I think it's absolutely silly to base the MVP on VORP as VORP takes into account of position. Yes, you are more valuable as a good offensive second basemen but who is to say a corner outfielder with the same stats isn't as valuable to his team, there are other factors you need to consider.

I think people make too much of this playoff thing. Dawson and A-Rod both deserved it when they were on last place teams. I think right now the front runner is Hamilton regardless of what the Rangers standings are, a season like that can't be ignored. Quentin is right behind him. After that Kinsler.

chaerulez
07-24-2008, 11:26 AM
Wow, a lot going on here.

K-Rod: no way. First of all, relievers rarely deserve the Cy Young, let alone the MVP award. Secondly, I'd take Nathan ahead of Rodriguez.

TCQ: Right now, he probably would win the MVP, for one legitimate reasons and two arguable reasons.

Legit: He's having a tremendous season, one of the top five in the AL.
Arguable1: The three Rangers having tremendous seasons will split votes.
Arguable2: The Sox are in first place.

Kinsler, Bradley, Hamilton: All are legitimate choices.
I'd probably vote for Kinsler, with VORP swaying me. VORP isn't really used by voters, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be.
Hamilton, I feel, is the weakest of the three, with his case being enhanced by RBI, which are completely situational. His feel-good story (Why is quitting heroin, then having a great season "feel-good", while quitting PEDs, then having a great season, damning?) will help his standing with voters.
Bradley will be hurt by his volatile personality and previous mediocrity. Some voters will see this as a flukish year, and they very well may be correct.

When Eck won the MVP, I don't know if he deserved it, it was a great season but not amazing. However, his 1990 was amazing and if he had won the MVP, I don't think anyone could complain (although Rickey Henderson did have a great year). Eck had more saves had baserunners allowed! Of his four walks he gave up the entire season on 70+ IP, one was intentional.

spiffie
07-24-2008, 11:37 AM
Quentin has a higher OBP, higher SLG, more HR than Hamilton. Hamilton has more RBI and a higher BA.

Bradley is having a more impressive season offensively than Hamilton. 309/431/584 at the plate. Less RBI only because of less chances (he is hitting significantly better than Hamilton with men on base).

the1tab
07-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Josh Hamilton.

He is keeping a mediocre team near a playoff spot.

Hamilton's the trendy pick because his story of redemption is perhaps the greatest in the history of sports.

However, if you had him hitting behind a mix of OC, Swisher, AJ and Alexei all year instead of Kinsler and Young every day, I would venture to say Hamilton's #s wouldn't be anywhere close to where they are.

I fear TCQ will end up on the same place Dye did a couple years ago if the Sox don't kill the division.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2008, 12:37 PM
Carlos easily, he's carried this team many times throughout the season. I believe he leads the league in GW RBI's, added another to that total last night.

Slight hijack:
For manager of the year it would have to go to either Ozzie, Gardenhire, or Madden. Each of their teams last year were pretty bad, now look where each of them are.

getonbckthr
07-24-2008, 12:48 PM
Carlos easily, he's carried this team many times throughout the season. I believe he leads the league in GW RBI's, added another to that total last night.

Slight hijack:
For manager of the year it would have to go to either Ozzie, Gardenhire, or Madden. Each of their teams last year were pretty bad, now look where each of them are.
I don't think manager of the year is close. It's Maddon.

35th and Shields
07-24-2008, 01:00 PM
An MVP caliber player is the guy that other teams make a game-plan against and focus on trying to eliminate from the game. Now when you think of texas is unquestionable that the guy you think about is Josh Hamilton, but when it comes to the sox and angels, I don't think that the answer is that clear....