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View Full Version : *Official* Buerhle pitches great, Sox beat Rangers 10-2


Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2008, 10:38 PM
Good all-around game for the hitters and for Buehrle.

johnnyg83
07-22-2008, 10:39 PM
Way to play stopper Mark B!

1.5 games up

Blueprint1
07-22-2008, 10:39 PM
Aright, we now have a 1.5 game lead. Feels so much better that way. :D:

rustysurf83
07-22-2008, 10:40 PM
Good game all the way around, solid pitching, hitting, and defense. Any word on the outlook for Joe and how serious if at all the back is?

KyWhiSoxFan
07-22-2008, 10:40 PM
Very nice game for Buehrle. The pitching corps needed that. Now they need to build on that and start shutting people down like they did earlier this year when the Sox led the league in ERA.

thomas35forever
07-22-2008, 10:40 PM
Heard most of it on the radio, but props to Buehrle for bringing his 'A' game tonight in spite of what his family's going through. Even better, we're up 1.5 on the Twins!:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2008, 10:40 PM
Let's win tomorrow to win the series.

Railsplitter
07-22-2008, 10:41 PM
Sox win, twinkies, lose, two more days in first and of course.. :bandance:

JB98
07-22-2008, 10:42 PM
Buehrle = still our best pitcher.

Throws on 3-days rest, shuts down a tough lineup and ends a losing streak. He's money.

Nice to see a scoreless inning from Linebrink.

cburns
07-22-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm ready to see Masset go.

cheezheadsoxfan
07-22-2008, 10:42 PM
I love Mark Buehrle.:smile:

TomBradley72
07-22-2008, 10:45 PM
Buehrle completely stepping up as a leader
Nice to see Linebrink back
Probably Uribe's best game of the year
Alexei continues to shine
Big bomb by Swisher...one of his biggest hits of the season
Twins loseThis team continues to avoid long losing streaks. Nice rebound.

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2008, 10:46 PM
I'm ready to see Masset go.

He got two ground balls but they weren't turned into outs. One was his "fault" as a fielder, but it's still not as bad as his line indicates.

Shoeless
07-22-2008, 10:46 PM
Mark owns. Alexei's the man. 200% AL Central lead increase. Score.

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2008, 10:47 PM
This team continues to avoid long losing streaks. Nice rebound.

It would be great if this was the start of a nine-game winning streak. :D:

aryzner
07-22-2008, 10:49 PM
Great game. We really needed that, felt good to see 'em win again! :cool:

It's Dankerific
07-22-2008, 10:51 PM
Overshadowed by MB's great day, whatabout JD??? Comes back and starts out 3-3, including the first RBI. (thats really contributing...)

peeonwrigley
07-22-2008, 10:51 PM
More games like this please.

Buehrle is a stud.

soxfanreggie
07-22-2008, 10:51 PM
Great overall game...solid pitching...busted out the hitting sticks...keep this thing going...

TDog
07-22-2008, 10:54 PM
It was an amazing game for Mark Buehrle tonight, especially with people concerned about him handling a start on two days' rest.

The Rangers against four pitchers tonight got 10 hits, but none came with runners in scoring position. None came after the leadoff triple in the second. That run didn't even score. The only runs the Rangers got come on a solo home run and a bases loaded walk after the Sox had already scored 10 runs.

With the Sox, it all begins with the pitching and defense. Hold the other team, and the Sox will score enough runs to win.

Masset coming in with a nine-run lead tells me he has been demoted in the bullpen. As much as he has been pitching lately, I can think of no other reason to bring him in tonight.

Jim Shorts
07-22-2008, 10:54 PM
Nice job, Mark, team needed you and you were there.

Good win tonight.


Now go say goodbye to your grandfather.

cheezheadsoxfan
07-22-2008, 10:55 PM
Overshadowed by MB's great day, whatabout JD??? Comes back and starts out 3-3, including the first RBI. (thats really contributing...)

That was impressive, especially after the scare with the knee on Sunday.

BainesHOF
07-22-2008, 10:56 PM
I loved how much Buehrle pitched inside tonight. I hope our other pitchers took notice.

cheezheadsoxfan
07-22-2008, 10:58 PM
Linebrink looking a lot better tonight also.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 10:58 PM
Great game for Buehrle.

veeter
07-22-2008, 11:02 PM
I'm ready to see Masset go.Nick has done some very good work this year. So he's in a little slump, stop over reacting. Mark simply put on a clinic.

Woofer
07-22-2008, 11:02 PM
Hope the Sox have some runs left in them for tomorrow. Buehrle looked great tonight, although I felt a little queasy in the Rangers part of the eighth inning. We really need to win this series while the Twins are in New York. It's comforting to finally gain some ground, after having a chance the last few games and not sealing the deal.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-22-2008, 11:06 PM
It would be a huge shot in the arm to the team if Richard can throw a good game tomorrow and get the win. It would be great to go to Detroit off two well-pitched games and play in a park they do pretty well in.

ElevenUp
07-22-2008, 11:08 PM
Great game by Buehrle. We definitely needed that effort by our ace. Especially big knowing that he's leaving for his grandfather's funeral right after the game.

October26
07-22-2008, 11:10 PM
Thank you Mark Buehrle for pitching your heart out and helping the White Sox get back to their winning ways! Kudos to the Sox offense too - JD, Swish, Alexei and anybody else I've forgotten - for showing up tonite. Very happy with this win - keep it going!:bandance:

itsnotrequired
07-22-2008, 11:11 PM
I credit tonight's win to my powerful tie.

Sig update time...

Huisj
07-22-2008, 11:11 PM
Nick has done some very good work this year. So he's in a little slump, stop over reacting.

Right, if people are going to pick on Massett, what about Logan or Thornton, or Linebrink two weeks ago? Really, the whole bullpen has been in a bit of a slump for the last couple of weeks. That doesn't mean they're all on their way out.

SoxSpeed22
07-22-2008, 11:20 PM
There's our ace.
JD had a great game coming back from a sore knee, Swisher landed the big shot and Alexei added a slam.
Let's take 2 tomorrow.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 11:26 PM
Guts, pure guts from Mark tonight on short rest. And Minnesota losing is icing on the cake.

Nick Masset meet Boone Logan.

I see where Joe's out with lower back stiffness again eh? Even if the Sox could somehow find common ground with Joe's agent, I just can't see how you could risk the number of years and the money that's going to be needed to sign him, not with his back. Looks like the Josh Fields era begins next February.

Sure hope they saved some runs for the kid pitcher tomorrow afternoon.

Lip

hoosiersoxfan
07-22-2008, 11:27 PM
Thome reached base 4 times tonight too! His on base percentage has been going way up lately!

chisoxfanatic
07-22-2008, 11:29 PM
I expected our hitting to take advantage of their weak pitching (just not THAT much in a single game); but, I didn't expect our pitching to contain their outstanding hitting that well. A job well done, Buehrle! Let's win the series tomorrow afternoon.

DeadMoney
07-22-2008, 11:32 PM
That was a big win.

Tonight, Buehrle was HUGE on so many different levels. And, we can't forget about Dye's quick comeback performance as well. (Two unbelievably big re-signs by KW)

Swisher, Ramirez, Uribe ... all good. Thome also had a quiet, but very solid night. Quentin, Cabrera and Pierzynski will all be fine.

Now, if only :angry:Konerko:angry: could get going.

I also can't help but wonder if Crede's back has been affecting him for the past month or so. I know he had the problem in LA right after he went 0-for the Cubs series, but he hasn't been able to hit a fastball since about that point.

Overall, great night to be at the park. Buehrle walking off to the standing-o is definitely one of my season highlights (to this point) considering all of the curcumstances.

cws05champ
07-22-2008, 11:35 PM
It was an amazing game for Mark Buehrle tonight, especially with people concerned about him handling a start on two days' rest.

The Rangers against four pitchers tonight got 10 hits, but none came with runners in scoring position. None came after the leadoff triple in the second. That run didn't even score. The only runs the Rangers got come on a solo home run and a bases loaded walk after the Sox had already scored 10 runs.

With the Sox, it all begins with the pitching and defense. Hold the other team, and the Sox will score enough runs to win.

Masset coming in with a nine-run lead tells me he has been demoted in the bullpen. As much as he has been pitching lately, I can think of no other reason to bring him in tonight.

I can think of a reason....trade maybe?

Great game tonight. Finally a relaxing game that didn't have me up in arms. Let's hope Richard can hold his own tomorrow.

kevingrt
07-22-2008, 11:36 PM
What a great game by Buehrle that was much needed. That was a fun game to watch, minus the bullpen minor malfunction again in the 8th and 9th.

Vernam
07-22-2008, 11:36 PM
I'm only writing this to help the post ratio of winning threads compared to losing ones. Oh, and also so no one accuses me of only posting when the Sox lose. :tongue:

:gulp:to Mark and JD. Nice to have the big guy back. (Oh, and Swisher and Alexei weren't bad, either.) This was a huge game, with the rook making his MLB debut tomorrow. It'd be nice to steal that one before heading on a road trip that could determine whether this team is meant to take command of the division.

Vernam

LoveYourSuit
07-22-2008, 11:39 PM
Linebrink looking a lot better tonight also.


Just got back from the game.

It was great to see Linebrink is still alive. And he did alright after a long lay off.


Mark was awesome on short rest. He stepped up as an ACE tonight and with a heavy heart.


As for Paulie...... nevermind.

Gavin
07-22-2008, 11:48 PM
The Ramirez Grand Slam was money.

What the HELL were people booing about when Beurhle gave up a run in the 8th inning!!!

Also, FWIW...

Since Josh Hamilton went to our Elementary, Middle, and High School, my sister felt obligated to make a sign confessing her love to him (in the simple I + <3 way).

Not surprisingly, nobody around us (Sec. 163) gave us a hard time at all (well, maybe one guy). Mind you, we were supporting the Sox the whole time.

That's what I like about us Sox fans.

Granted, there were the nolifes who would talk trash to any CF and did feel inclined to send it to Hamilton. Without doubt though, I felt pretty proud of the acceptance around us.

WhiteSox5187
07-22-2008, 11:54 PM
Didn't see any of the game (maybe they do better when I don't watch?!?!?!) but it's really hard to complain about anything when you win by that margin. What's this I hear about Crede too? That would kinda explain his struggles at hte plate a bit, but I hope this is nothing too serious.

FielderJones
07-23-2008, 12:14 AM
It was an amazing game for Mark Buehrle tonight, especially with people concerned about him handling a start on two days' rest.

Mark's not Wilbur Wood yet. He pitched Friday, had Saturday, Sunday, and Monday off.

Good to see JD just light that guy up after time off. I was more concerned about his knee health than I was about MB missing one day of rest between starts.

ChiSoxFan7
07-23-2008, 12:27 AM
i had to work all nigh so i missed the game. was mark just dominant or did the rangers suck it up? im guessing the prior but i'm wondering to anyone who watched it.

sox102
07-23-2008, 12:28 AM
I was at the game tonite. AWESOME game all around, especially the Swisher HR (even though I missed cuz I was getting beer) and the Ramirez GS (which I called to my buddy, who is a Cub fan and he even gave me a high five).:bandance::bandance:

kitekrazy
07-23-2008, 12:52 AM
It would be a huge shot in the arm to the team if Richard can throw a good game tomorrow and get the win.

I really don't like his chances. Imagine what it's like to be called up to pitch to the best hitting team in the majors.

voodoochile
07-23-2008, 12:53 AM
:winner

:twinslose:

:supernana: :bandance:

:)

doublem23
07-23-2008, 12:55 AM
I would like to point out that out 1.5 game lead is the 2nd cushiest division lead in the Majors right now.

:Rocker:

jabrch
07-23-2008, 12:58 AM
I really don't like his chances. Imagine what it's like to be called up to pitch to the best hitting team in the majors.

That park has a lot to do with it. On the road they rank 9th in avg, 11th in OBP and 7th in SLG. At home they are 2nd, 3rd and 1st.

They are a good hitting team - a great one at home - but he just watched them look bad against our Ace. Hopefully he isn't intimidated, but he is smart about what he throws to Kinsler, Hamilton and Bradley...

kitekrazy
07-23-2008, 12:58 AM
Buehrle completely stepping up as a leader
Nice to see Linebrink back
Probably Uribe's best game of the year
Alexei continues to shine
Big bomb by Swisher...one of his biggest hits of the season
Twins loseThis team continues to avoid long losing streaks. Nice rebound.

Uribe has turned out to be a decent bench player.

jabrch
07-23-2008, 01:01 AM
I would like to point out that out 1.5 game lead is the 2nd cushiest division lead in the Majors right now.

:Rocker:


WOW....didn't notice that. It's going to be a fun baseball summer with races in LA, Phx, Chicago (2), Mil, STL, Philly, NY (2), Mia, Minny, Det, Tam and Bos even with LAA having a pretty solid lead.

This is going to be a fun summer.

nasox
07-23-2008, 01:04 AM
Sox win and nobody posts in the postgame thread.

WhiteSox5187
07-23-2008, 01:29 AM
Sox win and nobody posts in the postgame thread.
Unless it's a big win, people around here don't post a lot after wins. After losses they will to vent (but even towards the end of the year last year, there weren't massive amounts of replies after losses unless we played particularly bad, people seem kinda resigned to it). If we're in this thing in September and havent run away with it yet I think there'd be huge turnouts in each and everyone of these post game threads.

TDog
07-23-2008, 02:11 AM
Mark's not Wilbur Wood yet. He pitched Friday, had Saturday, Sunday, and Monday off.

Good to see JD just light that guy up after time off. I was more concerned about his knee health than I was about MB missing one day of rest between starts.

Did I type two days' rest? I knew it was three days' rest. Three days' rest isn't such a big deal. Johnny Vander Meer pitched a no-hitter on three days' rest after pitching a no-hitter. Nolan Ryan used to pitch on three days' rest. In all the excitement over Mark Buehrle going on short rest, I accidentally typed two days' rest.

I stand corrected.

But considering how much the Sox needed a well-pitched game, the performance was huge.

Nellie_Fox
07-23-2008, 02:38 AM
Sox win and nobody posts in the postgame thread.Let it go. Please. Let it go.

How many times are we going to have to have the discussion about why more people post when the Sox lose than when they win? How many posts do you want to see that say "whoopee!"

Did I type two days' rest? I knew it was three days' rest. Three days' rest isn't such a big deal. Johnny Vander Meer pitched a no-hitter on three days' rest after pitching a no-hitter. Nolan Ryan used to pitch on three days' rest. Everybody pitched on three days rest in the days of the four-man rotation. And they pitched a lot more complete games, too.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2008, 08:02 AM
Guts, pure guts from Mark tonight on short rest. And Minnesota losing is icing on the cake.

Nick Masset meet Boone Logan.

I see where Joe's out with lower back stiffness again eh? Even if the Sox could somehow find common ground with Joe's agent, I just can't see how you could risk the number of years and the money that's going to be needed to sign him, not with his back. Looks like the Josh Fields era begins next February.

Sure hope they saved some runs for the kid pitcher tomorrow afternoon.

Lip

Josh Fields will never be our starting 3rd baseman. We will have to trade for one. Ozzie will not live with Fields poor fielding.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-23-2008, 08:09 AM
WOW....didn't notice that. It's going to be a fun baseball summer with races in LA, Phx, Chicago (2), Mil, STL, Philly, NY (2), Mia, Minny, Det, Tam and Bos even with LAA having a pretty solid lead.

This is going to be a fun summer.

Or nerve-wracking. I'd like to see the Sox with a 10-game lead. Now that would be fun. If it's close all summer, there will be hand-wringing galore on this board.

doublem23
07-23-2008, 08:21 AM
WOW....didn't notice that. It's going to be a fun baseball summer with races in LA, Phx, Chicago (2), Mil, STL, Philly, NY (2), Mia, Minny, Det, Tam and Bos even with LAA having a pretty solid lead.

This is going to be a fun summer.

Welcome to the Age of Parity.

oeo
07-23-2008, 08:23 AM
Josh Fields will never be our starting 3rd baseman. We will have to trade for one. Ozzie will not live with Fields poor fielding.

I guess slick-fielding third baseman can be found when needed?

Please...he'll be starting next year. The plan was to have him start this year, but they couldn't deal Crede...so I don't know where you're getting this from.

hi im skot
07-23-2008, 09:02 AM
Who is Mark Buerhle?

Fun game.

2906
07-23-2008, 09:19 AM
Uribe has turned out to be a decent bench player.

The two doubles were a bonus, but yes, he can definitely play 3B. And that's huge for the White Sox right now.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2008, 09:38 AM
I guess slick-fielding third baseman can be found when needed?

Please...he'll be starting next year. The plan was to have him start this year, but they couldn't deal Crede...so I don't know where you're getting this from.

Uribe is a far superior fielding third baseman compared to Fields. Have you forgotten that Fields is absolutely brutal in the field?

It is my belief, that Kenny would seek other options rather than Fields next year. I have nothing to back this up other than the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least "average" defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 09:55 AM
Uribe is a far superior fielding third baseman compared to Fields. Have you forgotten that Fields is absolutely brutal in the field?

It is my belief, that Kenny would seek other options rather than Fields next year. I have nothing to back this up other than the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least "average" defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable.

Wow, talk about Red Herrings!

1. Fields is not "absolutely brutal" at 3B. He has a cannon for an arm, and just like Robin Ventura and Crede when they first began their professional careers, he is still rough with the glove. Thanks for your insight Scout Kenny!

2. You have "the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least 'average' defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable"??? Where exactly did you garner this gem of "knowledge"? Were you hiding in Kenny's bathroom closet during a phone conversation with Ozzie?

You crack me up Kenny.

oeo
07-23-2008, 09:58 AM
Uribe is a far superior fielding third baseman compared to Fields.

:lol: Because Uribe made a couple of nice plays last night? I've seen Fields make some good plays too. I also saw Uribe boot an easy ground ball earlier this year at 3B.

Have you forgotten that Fields is absolutely brutal in the field?

No, I haven't forgotten, because it just isn't true. He may not be great, but he's not 'brutal.' There's another exaggeration.

It is my belief, that Kenny would seek other options rather than Fields next year. I have nothing to back this up other than the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least "average" defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable.Fields can be an average 3B. You haven't even seen him play the position this year. He supposedly put a lot of time in over the offseason to improve.

Besides, I'm just going to mention two names that played for the Sox and were below average defenders: Scott Podsednik and Rob Mackowiak.

Pinar_del_Rio_WS
07-23-2008, 10:11 AM
Great game by Mark Buehrle, throwing with all his heart.

First Alexei´s Grand Slam, my kid is still jumping (and I´m too :D:), it is the main commentary between the MLB fans here in havana today.

We need some runs early in the game tonigth to bring confidence to our debuting kid.

Go Sox, Go, Don´t Stop Believing

MsSoxVixen22
07-23-2008, 10:16 AM
I was at the game last night and Buehrle was stellar. The man pitched a helluva game and didn't loose his focus, despite his grandfather's passing. When Mark was taken out, I gave him a standing ovation. I wasn't worried at all about him pitching on a few days rest. I mean, it's Buehrle we're talking about! JD got it started. Boy was it nice to have him back. We really need him the the lineup. Swish's bomb wasn't too far from where we were sitting and my throat is a little raw this morning from screaming and cheering. But it was worth it! Let's get 'em this afternoon boys and keep it rolling!

TomBradley72
07-23-2008, 10:17 AM
Wow, talk about Red Herrings!

1. Fields is not "absolutely brutal" at 3B. He has a cannon for an arm, and just like Robin Ventura and Crede when they first began their professional careers, he is still rough with the glove. Thanks for your insight Scout Kenny!

2. You have "the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least 'average' defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable"??? Where exactly did you garner this gem of "knowledge"? Were you hiding in Kenny's bathroom closet during a phone conversation with Ozzie?

You crack me up Kenny.

Fields is 25 years old....he's not as far along as Robin or Joe were at the same stage in their careers. And I've yet to see a single report, scout, etc. that thinks he will catch up with them.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2008, 10:31 AM
:lol: Because Uribe made a couple of nice plays last night? I've seen Fields make some good plays too. I also saw Uribe boot an easy ground ball earlier this year at 3B.



No, I haven't forgotten, because it just isn't true. He may not be great, but he's not 'brutal.' There's another exaggeration.

Fields can be an average 3B. You haven't even seen him play the position this year. He supposedly put a lot of time in over the offseason to improve.

Besides, I'm just going to mention two names that played for the Sox and were below average defenders: Scott Podsednik and Rob Mackowiak.

Ozzie will settle for average or below defense in the outfield, but not the infield. This is based strictly on my observations since Ozzie has been the Manager. I don't believe Ozzie would sacrifice infield defense unless he was forced to. (and I agree with him.)

I have not seen Fields this year, and I certainly hope that he has improved his defense. Last year he was so bad that they had to move him to left field. IMHO he was below average at both positions.

IF Fields has improved his defense to Ventura and Crede levels by all means the job is his to lose, but from all indications his highest ceiling as a defense player is league average at best.

His offense is acceptable to me as a corner infielder, but I just feel that the Sox organization values infield defense more than you realize.

turners56
07-23-2008, 10:33 AM
Great game for Buehrle. This game was vital at this point in the season.

Nice to see Dye back in the lineup, he's the second best, if not the best hitter that this team has. He's been on a hot streak for the entire year basically.

doublem23
07-23-2008, 10:37 AM
:?:

I know last season traumatized most of us, but anyone defending Fields' defense really needs to go back and reevaluate. Josh Fields is a terrible defensive infielder. No one should have any desire to ever see him start at third base again.

2906
07-23-2008, 10:42 AM
:lol: Because Uribe made a couple of nice plays last night? I've seen Fields make some good plays too. I also saw Uribe boot an easy ground ball earlier this year at 3B.


I don't remember this.

He's only played 3B twice this year, yesterday and Sun. 7/13 in Texas.

Not trashing on Josh here, I hope he does well, but he's nowhere near Uribe's class as a defensive 3B. Uribe, with all his faults, is an excellent defender. His reactions and hands are much better than Josh's.

That said, I have not seen Josh play this year so I can't comment on any possible improvements.

Soxman219
07-23-2008, 10:44 AM
That's why Buehrle's our true ace. Great win last night and gaining a game on the Twins. It would be great for Richard to get his first win against one of the best offenses in baseball. A win today should bring momentum to Detriot and get payback on the Tigers.

2906
07-23-2008, 10:48 AM
Fields is 25 years old....he's not as far along as Robin or Joe were at the same stage in their careers. And I've yet to see a single report, scout, etc. that thinks he will catch up with them.

Agree and even Williams and Guillen themselves have expressed those same thoughts.

Josh has had a tough year. He's been nicked up more than once, his knee has been bothering him for a while, and it's not been a good year at the plate either. Granted, he hasn't been able to get into a groove at the dish due to the injuries.

It's just my opinion but I do think the Sox are considering using him as a trading chip. 3B will be available, if not in free agency then via trade. But the key is what could they get for Josh and is it worth the long term ramifications? That's for Sox brass to answer in the next 8 days.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 10:49 AM
Fields is 25 years old....he's not as far along as Robin or Joe were at the same stage in their careers. And I've yet to see a single report, scout, etc. that thinks he will catch up with them.

Yet another red herring from another master scout. You state that Fields is not as far along as Robin or Joe - how is this the case? Please amaze us with your baseball knowledge and wisdom.

You also state that you "have yet to see a single report" that states he "will catch up with them"? So where are all these "reports" that you are reading? And have you seen any of these mystery reports that state he will not catch up with them?

You also crack me up Tom Bradley!

Come on guys, instead of using very poor logic and crazy assumptions, just state that you don't like Fields and that, in your opinion, he will not succeed. Anything else just makes you look like a fool.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 10:51 AM
Ozzie will settle for average or below defense in the outfield, but not the infield. This is based strictly on my observations since Ozzie has been the Manager. I don't believe Ozzie would sacrifice infield defense unless he was forced to. (and I agree with him.)

I have not seen Fields this year, and I certainly hope that he has improved his defense. Last year he was so bad that they had to move him to left field. IMHO he was below average at both positions.

IF Fields has improved his defense to Ventura and Crede levels by all means the job is his to lose, but from all indications his highest ceiling as a defense player is league average at best.

His offense is acceptable to me as a corner infielder, but I just feel that the Sox organization values infield defense more than you realize.

That's better....You are simply stating your opinion now, instead of using your secret "knowledge" of KW and OG plans.....I can respect that. I disagree, but I can respect that opinion.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 10:52 AM
:?:

I know last season traumatized most of us, but anyone defending Fields' defense really needs to go back and reevaluate. Josh Fields is a terrible defensive infielder. No one should have any desire to ever see him start at third base again.

Okey dokey.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2008, 10:57 AM
That's better....You are simply stating your opinion now, instead of using your secret "knowledge" of KW and OG plans.....I can respect that. I disagree, but I can respect that opinion.

I never said I had any secret knowledge. It was a basic assumption on my part that Ozzie and Kenny place a high value on pitching and infield defense.

Reading is a skill and looking for a fight can be a pleasent diversion, but I have found that going overboard in looking for battlegrounds, is usually frowned upon here at WSI.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 11:04 AM
I never said I had any secret knowledge. It was a basic assumption on my part that Ozzie and Kenny place a high value on pitching and infield defense.

Reading is a skill and looking for a fight can be a pleasent diversion, but I have found that going overboard in looking for battlegrounds, is usually frowned upon here at WSI.


You specifically said "I have nothing to back this up other than the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least "average" defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable."

doesn't look like an assumption to me. You have the knowledge that Kenny and Ozzie "would find Fields unacceptable." Stand behind your words, man!

Anyhow, for the statheads, here's the fiedling stats for Ventura, Crede, and Fields first year at 3B:

Crede:
Year: 2002
Age: 24
Games: 53
Errors: 8
F %: .938

Ventura:
Year: 1990
Age: 22
Games: 147
Errors: 25
F % .939

Fields:
Year: 2007
Age: 24
Games: 79
Errors: 9
F % .958

Thats quite a difference. I guess I am proven wrong. Ventura and Crede were sooo much better than Fields after their first year.

doublem23
07-23-2008, 11:05 AM
Okey dokey.

If you're going to pick fights over opinions, you better bring more to the table than lame insults and a condescending attitude. Please, oh please, Mr. Heffalump, enlighten us all as to why we're all misguided for not seeing Josh Fields is destined for greatness.

doublem23
07-23-2008, 11:06 AM
You specifically said "I have nothing to back this up other than the knowledge that both Kenny and Ozzie value at least "average" defense at third and would find Fields unacceptable."

doesn't look like an assumption to me.

Anyhow, for the statheads, here's the fiedling stats for Ventura, Crede, and Fields first year at 3B:

Crede:
Year: 2002
Age: 24
Games: 53
Errors: 8
F %: .938

Ventura:
Year: 1990
Age: 22
Games: 147
Errors: 25
F % .939

Fields:
Year: 2007
Age: 24
Games: 79
Errors: 9
F % .958

Thats quite a difference. I guess I am proven wrong. Ventura and Crede were sooo much better than Fields after their first year.

:rolling:

Your bringing up fielding percentage!?!?

:rolling:

That's the worst ****ing stat in baseball. The least you could have done was bust out something slightly useful, like ZR.

:rolling:

I was hoping for something to chew on.

2906
07-23-2008, 11:07 AM
Yet another red herring from another master scout. You state that Fields is not as far along as Robin or Joe - how is this the case? Please amaze us with your baseball knowledge and wisdom.

You also state that you "have yet to see a single report" that states he "will catch up with them"? So where are all these "reports" that you are reading? And have you seen any of these mystery reports that state he will not catch up with them?

You also crack me up Tom Bradley!

Come on guys, instead of using very poor logic and crazy assumptions, just state that you don't like Fields and that, in your opinion, he will not succeed. Anything else just makes you look like a fool.

Not to speak for TomBradley72 but I can fill in some gaps here.

- Both Williams and Guillen have been quoted as saying Josh will "never be another Robin" or "never be another Crede". They've said this more than once.

- Not that Williams and Guillen are the be-all end-all of talent evaluaters, but Baseball America commented for a few years in a row about Josh's defense, and not in a complimentary way. Footwork was especially criticized. The White Sox have had to work with him a lot on footwork.

So, some of the notions expressed aren't crazy, there's truth to them.

Now, I like Josh, I hope he does well and in fact, I hope he improves enough that he's an excellent starting 3B for the White Sox for 10 years. He is a great young man who accepted his situation for 2008 like a real pro. It appears you like him too, and that's great. Whichever way it goes, hopefully it works out for Josh and more importantly, the White Sox.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 11:08 AM
If you're going to pick fights over opinions, you better bring more to the table than lame insults and a condescending attitude. Please, oh please, Mr. Heffalump, enlighten us all as to why we're all misguided for not seeing Josh Fields is destined for greatness.


I never said he is destined for greatness. Once again, another false statement. I simply disagree that he is a hack defensively, as so many others have said.

See my previous post with stats for the requested enlightenment.

I am not trying to pick fights. I just get annoyed when people post extreme assumptions or simply make stuff up that is not factual. I apologize if anyone is offended by my tone.

Heffalump
07-23-2008, 11:10 AM
:rolling:

Your bringing up fielding percentage!?!?

:rolling:

That's the worst ****ing stat in baseball. The least you could have done was bust out something slightly useful, like ZR.

:rolling:

I was hoping for something to chew on.

Okey dokey. You don't like my stats. Show me first year stats that show Fields is horrible compared to Crede and Venturas first year.

Nevermind. I give up. you guys win. Fields is a hack. dump him now.

ondafarm
07-23-2008, 11:16 AM
I see Josh Fields as something like a Beltin Bill Melton 3B. Now, he's not there, yet, but he could get there.

As in, definitely not a gold glove 3B, but respectable at the position. Third has a lot of footwork involved in it and really requires fast reflexes and a strong arm.

Fields has the physical skills to be a decent to good defender. He is not there yet. Evidently he's learning and improving. That's all good. He'll never be the equal of Joe Crede or Robin Ventura with the glove. I think he will surpass JC and possibly RV with the bat, or at least hit more homers.

Is that right for the Sox? That's what Ozzie and Kenny and a few other people have to work out.

Teams win with decent defenders at third all the time. Of course, teams also win with near gold glove winners at third as well. Your requirements there depend on the rest of your team.

doublem23
07-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Okey dokey. You don't like my stats. Show me first year stats that show Fields is horrible compared to Crede and Venturas first year.

Nevermind. I give up. you guys win. Fields is a hack. dump him now.

Fielding percentage is a terrible stat, I'm not going to get into but feel free to Google search the term and I'm sure you'll find plenty of rants about why you may as well just flip a coin to find out whose a better defender.

Zone Rating's not great, I'll admit that, but I like it's better than fielding percentage. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of historical data on it. I can only find back to 2001, so the comparisons to Robin Ventura will have to go for naught, but as bad as Crede has been this year, he has a ZR of .812, about midpoint for qualified American League third basemen. Fields' ZR last year was .713. That's quite the difference. The worst everday third baseman in the American League this year is Alex Gordon, whose ZR is .746.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=7&sortColumn=zoneRating&sortOrder=true&split=81&qualified=0&season=2008&seasonType=2

kitekrazy
07-23-2008, 11:44 AM
:?:

I know last season traumatized most of us, but anyone defending Fields' defense really needs to go back and reevaluate. Josh Fields is a terrible defensive infielder. No one should have any desire to ever see him start at third base again.

He wasn't so hot in the outfield either. Somethings tells me he's not a "natural" baseball player. Just another one dimensional player. I guess he could be a 1B/DH. It's like they never seem to be short on those.

kitekrazy
07-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Fields has the physical skills to be a decent to good defender. He is not there yet. Evidently he's learning and improving. That's all good. He'll never be the equal of Joe Crede or Robin Ventura with the glove. I think he will surpass JC and possibly RV with the bat, or at least hit more homers.


At some point he's either got it or not. Physical skills can't always replace instinct.

Carolina Kenny
07-23-2008, 11:59 AM
I see Josh Fields as something like a Beltin Bill Melton 3B. Now, he's not there, yet, but he could get there.

As in, definitely not a gold glove 3B, but respectable at the position. Third has a lot of footwork involved in it and really requires fast reflexes and a strong arm.

Fields has the physical skills to be a decent to good defender. He is not there yet. Evidently he's learning and improving. That's all good. He'll never be the equal of Joe Crede or Robin Ventura with the glove. I think he will surpass JC and possibly RV with the bat, or at least hit more homers.

Is that right for the Sox? That's what Ozzie and Kenny and a few other people have to work out.

Teams win with decent defenders at third all the time. Of course, teams also win with near gold glove winners at third as well. Your requirements there depend on the rest of your team.

Thank you for your post. You do have to take a total team defense approach to the team. Can you carry a league average 3rd baseman and be a play off team?
Of course you can especially if he provides outstanding power to a corner position. Can you carry a whole team of " league average" fielders and be a play off team? I'm not so sure, and it would be interesting to see some examples. Maybe this years Brewers will pull it off.

To set the record straight, I am not a expert and have no aspirations to pose as one. I have never played organized hardball baseball at any level. At this point I'm just an old 12" slow pitch recreational player.

I am observer of the White Sox since 1959 and have seen third baseman come and go. I remember the vast wasteland that was third until RV and JC more recently finally solidified the position. I have NOT SEEN Josh this year and have no idea if he has improved.

I do recall vividly Josh's struggles at third last year, and have no desire to revisit the vast wasteland and revolving door that third base was for decades a joke for the White Sox. If Josh ends up with pre back problems Bill Melton type offensive numbers I would live with Bill Melton type defense, especially if the other infielder were above average defensively.

whitesox901
07-23-2008, 12:43 PM
At that game, it has to be on the greatest this year

second half slide: 2-3 (posted untill .500 or above)