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balke
07-21-2008, 02:03 PM
If the Twins signed Bonds, would they win this division? Of all the teams right now in baseball, I could see the Twins turning into a powerhouse with Bonds in the lineup. They are half a game out, with the Sox losing Contreras and struggling in the bullpen.

Thoughts?

palehozenychicty
07-21-2008, 02:06 PM
They would go a longer way, but they won't cause Pohlad still owns the team.

munchman33
07-21-2008, 02:14 PM
Of course they would win the division with Bonds. As of right now, they stand a pretty darn good chance of winning outright anyway.

As I've been saying the last few weeks, the Twins have vastly developed and improved as the season has gone on. They are a better team than we are right now. We need to either improve or make trades to keep up, because playing like we did in the first half, while not at all bad, will not win us this division. They've raised the stakes.

Boondock Saint
07-21-2008, 02:18 PM
They might. But they aren't signing him for what he wants and he isn't signing with them for what they'd offer.

voodoochile
07-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Of course they would win the division with Bonds. As of right now, they stand a pretty darn good chance of winning outright anyway.

As I've been saying the last few weeks, the Twins have vastly developed and improved as the season has gone on. They are a better team than we are right now. We need to either improve or make trades to keep up, because playing like we did in the first half, while not at all bad, will not win us this division. They've raised the stakes.

Am I the only one here reading this post in deep pink?

turners56
07-21-2008, 02:30 PM
If the Twins signed Bonds, would they win this division? Of all the teams right now in baseball, I could see the Twins turning into a powerhouse with Bonds in the lineup. They are half a game out, with the Sox losing Contreras and struggling in the bullpen.

Thoughts?

Won't happen, don't worry about it. They probably won't even make a deal for Beltre. The Twins can talk all they want, but when it comes to the money, they just don't want to give it up.

turners56
07-21-2008, 02:31 PM
Of course they would win the division with Bonds. As of right now, they stand a pretty darn good chance of winning outright anyway.

As I've been saying the last few weeks, the Twins have vastly developed and improved as the season has gone on. They are a better team than we are right now. We need to either improve or make trades to keep up, because playing like we did in the first half, while not at all bad, will not win us this division. They've raised the stakes.

Improved as in hitting .313 with RISP? More like miraculous luck...

Chicken Dinner
07-21-2008, 03:38 PM
They keep winning without the POS.

SoxGirl4Life
07-21-2008, 03:40 PM
Improved as in hitting .313 with RISP? More like miraculous luck...


Its the weather conditions in Minnesota.

Boondock Saint
07-21-2008, 03:49 PM
Its the weather conditions in Minnesota.

Yeah, the winds can get mighty stiff in the bottom of the ninth.

munchman33
07-21-2008, 03:59 PM
Improved as in hitting .313 with RISP? More like miraculous luck...

Their pitching is hands down better the last few months. Add to that the ability to score runs with runners on base...yeah, they've outplayed us. We're in first because of our good start to the year. If we keep playing like we have all year, they're going to pass us. That isn't a "stretch." A stretch is thinking the Twins aren't as good as they've played the last few months.

doublem23
07-21-2008, 04:00 PM
Am I the only one here reading this post in deep pink?

Munch needs the Twins to win the division to save what little credibility he still has.

munchman33
07-21-2008, 04:01 PM
Am I the only one here reading this post in deep pink?

You're right let's just keep doing what we've been doing. Everything is fine. We're still in first.

oeo
07-21-2008, 04:01 PM
Of course they would win the division with Bonds. As of right now, they stand a pretty darn good chance of winning outright anyway.

As I've been saying the last few weeks, the Twins have vastly developed and improved as the season has gone on. They are a better team than we are right now. We need to either improve or make trades to keep up, because playing like we did in the first half, while not at all bad, will not win us this division. They've raised the stakes.

Hate to use a Hawk phrase, but: when you're hot, you're hot. The Twins are winning at .727 clip since June 10th. It's not sustainable, especially with their team as it currently stands: it's just not as good as you're saying it is.

That's all it is...they're hot. They're not going to keep it up, because no team can keep it up; and they're really not that great to begin with.

asindc
07-21-2008, 04:05 PM
Their pitching is hands down better the last few months. Add to that the ability to score runs with runners on base...yeah, they've outplayed us. We're in first because of our good start to the year. If we keep playing like we have all year, they're going to pass us. That isn't a "stretch." A stretch is thinking the Twins aren't as good as they've played the last few months.

They are in second because of their good start. How do distinguish their good start from the Sox', especially when it is due to lights out hitting with RISP?

munchman33
07-21-2008, 04:08 PM
They are in second because of their good start. How do distinguish their good start from the Sox', especially when it is due to lights out hitting with RISP?

They were under .500 the first month of the season and one game over after two. So, you're wrong. They did not have a good start.

Not to mention, they're PLAYING a lot better now. The pitching, which was absolutely brutal the first two months, is now making a case for best in the league.

oeo
07-21-2008, 04:09 PM
They are in second because of their good start. How do distinguish their good start from the Sox', especially when it is due to lights out hitting with RISP?

I don't remember a good start, anyway. We didn't start playing well until mid-to-late May. Before that, we were hovering .500 with the rest of the division.

turners56
07-21-2008, 04:09 PM
They were under .500 the first month of the season and one game over after two.

Not to mention, they're PLAYING a lot better. The pitching, which was absolutely brutal the first two months, is now making a case for best in the league.


Best in the league...right. Have you been infected with Timberwolfitis?

oeo
07-21-2008, 04:10 PM
They were under .500 the first month of the season and one game over after two. So, you're wrong. They did not have a good start.

Not to mention, they're PLAYING a lot better now. The pitching, which was absolutely brutal the first two months, is now making a case for best in the league.

Are you related to HomeFish?

Everything Twins is not spectacular.

munchman33
07-21-2008, 04:14 PM
Gotta love those White Sox glasses...

Jeez people. Everyone with a dissenting opinion isn't insane. Especially with the way the two clubs have been playing in opposite directions the last six weeks. There are flukes, and then there are trends. The Twins have sustained winning and playing well and pitching well for a long enough time to dismiss fluke. It's time to accept that what we've gotten from them lately is exactly what they are. We can either ignore it, rest on our laurels, and lose...or accept it, realize we MUST improve, and try to win this thing.

oeo
07-21-2008, 04:18 PM
Gotta love those White Sox glasses...

Or those Twins ones...:dunno:

Everyone with a dissenting opinion isn't insane.Maybe not everyone...you, OTOH...

Especially with the way the two clubs have been playing in opposite directions the last six weeks. There are flukes, and then there are trends.There are highs and there are lows. The Twins are on a high right now. What about their .727 winning percentage since June 10th makes you think they can sustain it?

The Twins have sustained winning and playing well and pitching well for a long enough time to dismiss fluke.30 games is enough? Wow.

Maybe it's not a fluke, maybe they are an above-.500 team. They're not a .727 team, though, that's for sure.

It's time to accept that what we've gotten from them lately is exactly what they are. We can either ignore it, rest on our laurels, and lose...or accept it, realized we MUST improve, and try to win this thing.There's always room for improvement. That said, as the teams currently stand, we're a better team in the long run...not 30 games out of 162.

I think if there's a team we need to put away in this division, it's the Tigers. I personally don't think they have the pitching, but if we keep letting them stick around, their offense could get awfully hot and just carry them the rest of the way. They haven't hit a good streak yet this year, which is scary considering their offensive potential, and only sitting 6.5 games back. The Twins, OTOH, are just hot right now. In a month, I bet things look differently from their end.

doublem23
07-21-2008, 04:19 PM
Gotta love those White Sox glasses...

Jeez people. Everyone with a dissenting opinion isn't insane. Especially with the way the two clubs have been playing in opposite directions the last six weeks. There are flukes, and then there are trends. The Twins have sustained winning and playing well and pitching well for a long enough time to dismiss fluke. It's time to accept that what we've gotten from them lately is exactly what they are. We can either ignore it, rest on our laurels, and lose...or accept it, realize we MUST improve, and try to win this thing.

Sometimes they are.

turners56
07-21-2008, 04:21 PM
Gotta love those White Sox glasses...

Jeez people. Everyone with a dissenting opinion isn't insane. Especially with the way the two clubs have been playing in opposite directions the last six weeks. There are flukes, and then there are trends. The Twins have sustained winning and playing well and pitching well for a long enough time to dismiss fluke. It's time to accept that what we've gotten from them lately is exactly what they are. We can either ignore it, rest on our laurels, and lose...or accept it, realize we MUST improve, and try to win this thing.

So the fact that the Twins played like utter crap for the first two months means absolutely NOTHING? They got hot thanks to the National League; big achievement right?

I agree that we need to improve, but the fact that you're treating the Twins like they're gods is disturbing.

ondafarm
07-21-2008, 04:27 PM
They were under .500 the first month of the season and one game over after two. So, you're wrong. They did not have a good start.

Not to mention, they're PLAYING a lot better now. The pitching, which was absolutely brutal the first two months, is now making a case for best in the league.


Look, the Twins have a good team, not a great team, but a good, solid one. They absolutely own the Metrodome and are as sound on fundamentals as any team I know. Their pitching is good, not great, and their players pretty much all play their hearts out.

I don't think Barry Bonds would help them much, he can absolutely be a cancer for the team and unless BB is willing to play for one tenth of his usual salary, he won't be there. Then again, the Mayo Clinic isn't far from the twin cities and I'm sure they could meet his medical needs.

SoxSpeed22
07-21-2008, 04:29 PM
I don't think Barry Bonds would help them much, he can absolutely be a cancer for the team and unless BB is willing to play for one tenth of his usual salary, he won't be there. Then again, the Mayo Clinic isn't far from the twin cities and I'm sure they could meet his medical needs.Which is precisely why I would love to see him go to the Twins.

PorkChopExpress
07-21-2008, 04:48 PM
I just don't understand how people on this board can simply write the Twins off. Have we not learned from the past? Since 2001, we have been saying the Twins are not as good as us "on paper." And all but one of those years they have beaten us.

Maybe the .727 baseball over the last 30 days won't hold up, but why won't the .600 baseball they have played over the last 75 games? They are a very good team, and very legitimate threat, and they scare me, especially if we continue to lose series to the likes of KC.

turners56
07-21-2008, 04:58 PM
I just don't understand how people on this board can simply write the Twins off. Have we not learned from the past? Since 2001, we have been saying the Twins are not as good as us "on paper." And all but one of those years they have beaten us.

Maybe the .727 baseball over the last 30 days won't hold up, but why won't the .600 baseball they have played over the last 75 games? They are a very good team, and very legitimate threat, and they scare me, especially if we continue to lose series to the likes of KC.

I think we all feel the same. But maybe not in the way Munchman has put it.

thomas35forever
07-21-2008, 04:58 PM
I just don't understand how people on this board can simply write the Twins off. Have we not learned from the past? Since 2001, we have been saying the Twins are not as good as us "on paper." And all but one of those years they have beaten us.

Maybe the .727 baseball over the last 30 days won't hold up, but why won't the .600 baseball they have played over the last 75 games? They are a very good team, and very legitimate threat, and they scare me, especially if we continue to lose series to the likes of KC.
I still don't understand how until recently, people were more scared of the Tigers than the Twins. The Twins are going to be in it till the end. The old saying goes that those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it. That is a very real possibility.

SoxGirl4Life
07-21-2008, 04:58 PM
I just don't understand how people on this board can simply write the Twins off. Have we not learned from the past? Since 2001, we have been saying the Twins are not as good as us "on paper." And all but one of those years they have beaten us.

Maybe the .727 baseball over the last 30 days won't hold up, but why won't the .600 baseball they have played over the last 75 games? They are a very good team, and very legitimate threat, and they scare me, especially if we continue to lose series to the likes of KC.


I don't think anyone's writing off the Twins. However, some of the remarks in this thread sound like the Sox should just pack it in and not play the rest of the games. I think reality lives somewhere between these two extremes.

The Immigrant
07-21-2008, 04:59 PM
Well, with a GM this dumb, cosmic karma demands a second-half collapse for the Twins: http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/07/wins-are-important.html

Lip Man 1
07-21-2008, 05:04 PM
I can't see the Twins maintaining a .720 winning percentage the rest of the year but stranger things have happened.

All you have to do is look at the Twins winning percentage after Memorial Day 2006 to be reminded of what can happen.

Lip

thomas35forever
07-21-2008, 05:07 PM
Well, with a GM this dumb, cosmic karma demands a second-half collapse for the Twins: http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/07/wins-are-important.html
Wow. At least we know the Twins won't be going after John Danks as long as he's GM.

Tragg
07-21-2008, 05:09 PM
Am I the only one here reading this post in deep pink?
If pink means hyperbole, overstatement and overreaction, then no

RKMeibalane
07-21-2008, 05:12 PM
Am I the only one here reading this post in deep pink?

Nope. I see the same thing that you do.

Foulke You
07-21-2008, 06:15 PM
I can't see the Twins maintaining a .720 winning percentage the rest of the year but stranger things have happened.

All you have to do is look at the Twins winning percentage after Memorial Day 2006 to be reminded of what can happen.

Lip
I think it would be a mistake to write off the Twins as some on this board have done. The Twins have a lot of speed in their lineup, their outfield covers the most ground out of any I've seen in recent years (particularly Gomez and Delmon Young). Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau in the middle of the order is a very formidable duo, and with all due respect to Mariano Rivera and Franscisco Rodriguez, they have the best closer in baseball in Joe Nathan. The thing that worries me the most about them is that damn dome. The Sox just seem to curl up into a ball on artificial turf this year and the final key 7 games against the Twins head to head is at the roller dome. The Sox need to step up and shake this "dome curse" they've developed or they are going to be on the golf course in October.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that they are unbeatable and a lock for the division because I question whether their pitching staff can sustain this little run of theirs. Livan Hernandez has been pretty ordinary his 2nd and 3rd time through the American League. I also don't think they don't have the HR thunder of other playoff contenders in our league and if their offense isn't "dinking and dunking" like crazy they can easily get blown out against higher powered offenses like they did against us in that 4 game series at The Cell. It should be an exciting race to the finish and I have a feeling it is going to come down to the final 2 weeks in September.

munchman33
07-21-2008, 06:46 PM
I think we all feel the same. But maybe not in the way Munchman has put it.

No, if you agree with him and not me, you're contradicting yourself. I said the Twins played like crap for two months to start the year and have been playing great baseball since. Someone else says they started bad and have been great for the last 75 days, and you're all like "why, that's a good argument, unlike Munchman."

It's the same damn argument. Either your biased toward me or you have no idea what you're talking about.

JB98
07-21-2008, 07:10 PM
I've said for awhile now that all these Sox fans who fear the Tigers more than the Twins are insane.

Sure, the Tigers aren't completely out of it. But they're beat up, and they've played below .500 against American League competition all year. Like everyone else in our division (except for the Tribe), they got fat on crappy NL teams.

Minnesota is so obviously the greatest threat to the Sox. We killed them the last time we played them head-to-head, but that seemed to be a wake-up call for them. They've outplayed us the last six weeks.

FarWestChicago
07-21-2008, 08:33 PM
Munch needs the Twins to win the division to save what little credibility he still has.Doub has hit the nail on the head.

SBSoxFan
07-21-2008, 11:26 PM
Their pitching is hands down better the last few months. Add to that the ability to score runs with runners on base...yeah, they've outplayed us. We're in first because of our good start to the year. If we keep playing like we have all year, they're going to pass us. That isn't a "stretch." A stretch is thinking the Twins aren't as good as they've played the last few months.

:rolleyes: Uuummm ... the "last few months" is pretty much the entire season to this point, save July. If the Twins have had better pitching, and, generally, been playing better than the Sox for the "last few months" of a season that is only about 3-3/4 months old, how is it that the Sox are still in first?

munchman33
07-21-2008, 11:38 PM
:rolleyes: Uuummm ... the "last few months" is pretty much the entire season to this point, save July. If the Twins have had better pitching, and, generally, been playing better than the Sox for the "last few months" of a season that is only about 3-3/4 months old, how is it that the Sox are still in first?

My point was my "last two months" and his last 75 games are about equal. And that certain people reach to disagree with me.

The Twins have played the last two months better than our first two. Right now, they have better starters, a better pen, a better lineup, and better defense. It's not even close.

We aren't really doing much different at the plate. That's the problem. Because the pitching has come down to earth in a heartbeat. And this lineup is not even close to good enough to carry us. Definately not passed a team as well rounded as the Twins.

munchman33
07-21-2008, 11:44 PM
Doub has hit the nail on the head.

Having no credibility with a bunch of mindless drones who can't see the apparent, problematic, and season-jeopardizing flaws on this team is just fine by me. All I can say is thank you.

This team needs another starter, another reliever, more speed overall, a leadoff hitter, and a turn-around from a guy who seems to be completely washed up. But yeah, keeping resting on your laurels and tell yourselves that a young and talented team like the Twins is just going to give us the division.

turners56
07-22-2008, 12:04 PM
Wow. At least we know the Twins won't be going after John Danks as long as he's GM.

Livan's a one year rental anyhow. He has a point. Get lucky with him now and don't worry about him after this year.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 12:20 PM
. . . The thing that worries me the most about them is that damn dome. The Sox just seem to curl up into a ball on artificial turf this year and the final key 7 games against the Twins head to head is at the roller dome. The Sox need to step up and shake this "dome curse" they've developed or they are going to be on the golf course in October.
. . .


I concur.

The way to play better in the dome (and on turf in general) is to add speed. Thome, Crede and PK are not speed players. Dye, Swisher, AJ, TCQ are marginal. Anderson/ Wise, Cabrera, Alexei are speed players.

Play in the dome with a slow/ marginal lineup and you play into the Twins hands. Play speed and you've got a better shot.

doublem23
07-22-2008, 12:22 PM
Having no credibility with a bunch of mindless drones who can't see the apparent, problematic, and season-jeopardizing flaws on this team is just fine by me. All I can say is thank you.

This team needs another starter, another reliever, more speed overall, a leadoff hitter, and a turn-around from a guy who seems to be completely washed up. But yeah, keeping resting on your laurels and tell yourselves that a young and talented team like the Twins is just going to give us the division.

Where do you see teams out there that don't have holes? Even the Angels, who look more and more like the best team in baseball, could stand to improve in some areas of the game? It's not that we don't see the Sox's flaws, we just believe this team has proven that it can win in its flawed state, and we believe they're better than the flawed team in Minnesota. Since you can't seem to separate that concept from "seeing everything with wearing rose-colored glasses," then it's never going to sink in.

This past off-season, you were extremely vocal about your displeasure with the organization; that the Sox were not a good team, that Detroit was much better, and they were foolish to continue to continue to try and win with this core of players. Some of us believed in the vision and plan that KW had for this team this season, and here we are, a little more than a week left in July and the White Sox are still in first place and still have an excellent chance of making the post-season. So what is it? You wanna keep patting yourself on the back, believing you're some kind of misunderstood baseball genius and the rest of us just don't get it, because we see that, despite its obvious flaws, we still have a good, potentially very good, team?

All I can say is one of the best reasons to still be excited about the Sox is your pessimism. I mean, if you were just guessing, statistically you would have been right about something by now, right?

palehozenychicty
07-22-2008, 12:54 PM
I concur.

The way to play better in the dome (and on turf in general) is to add speed. Thome, Crede and PK are not speed players. Dye, Swisher, AJ, TCQ are marginal. Anderson/ Wise, Cabrera, Alexei are speed players.

Play in the dome with a slow/ marginal lineup and you play into the Twins hands. Play speed and you've got a better shot.

I think this is where the team has to adjust their core in general is to get more athletic and versatile with their offense. It's been like this for awhile, where if they're not blasting homers, then it's a wrap and a pitiful loss, like yesterday. It's not only an issue for the Sox, it's across the league as power numbers decline.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 01:15 PM
I read a story talking to players about the Metrodome a few years ago and every player they spoke with said it was a nightmare.

One guy had it right, he said if you are playing a three game series, you basically write off the first game because it takes that long just to adapt to it.

It's the biggest "home field" advantage in MLB and to top it off the Twins get exactly the type of speed, fundamentals - orientated players who thrive in it.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 01:18 PM
Palehose:

But based on the Sox performance since the decade started, the all or nothing approach seems to be their biggest issue and being in the same division with Minnesota complicates matters.

It's always puzzled me how Ozzie and Kenny always seem to talk about how they respect and admire the way Minnesota plays the game, yet they never seem to want to get the players who can do it like the Twins.

There's a disconnect there between their statements and reality.

Lip

munchman33
07-22-2008, 01:20 PM
Where do you see teams out there that don't have holes? Even the Angels, who look more and more like the best team in baseball, could stand to improve in some areas of the game? It's not that we don't see the Sox's flaws, we just believe this team has proven that it can win in its flawed state, and we believe they're better than the flawed team in Minnesota. Since you can't seem to separate that concept from "seeing everything with wearing rose-colored glasses," then it's never going to sink in.

This past off-season, you were extremely vocal about your displeasure with the organization; that the Sox were not a good team, that Detroit was much better, and they were foolish to continue to continue to try and win with this core of players. Some of us believed in the vision and plan that KW had for this team this season, and here we are, a little more than a week left in July and the White Sox are still in first place and still have an excellent chance of making the post-season. So what is it? You wanna keep patting yourself on the back, believing you're some kind of misunderstood baseball genius and the rest of us just don't get it, because we see that, despite its obvious flaws, we still have a good, potentially very good, team?

All I can say is one of the best reasons to still be excited about the Sox is your pessimism. I mean, if you were just guessing, statistically you would have been right about something by now, right?


Everything I said in the offseason about the offense is still true. Nick Swisher is still a .240 hitter. Thome and Konerko have both shown their age and injury history. I said Quentin would be the best hitter on the team. Heck, the only guy on the offense I was wrong about was Dye, because I didn't think his legs would hold up. He is currently fighting a leg injury, though from a bean ball.

I said the bullpen would be good. It has been.

I was wrong about the starting pitching. And it's carried us. It has absolutely carried an offense not good enough to win. But it doesn't look like it will anymore. So unless the offense gets better (or we replace Jose, get Javy on track, and Gavin and Danks mimic their first halves), we'll see in the second half where I thought we'd be in the first half.

You're going to make fun of me for being wrong about the Tigers and Indians? Nobody thought they'd be that bad. It took a ton of injuries/bad performances all around to get us into this position. That isn't a "negative" outlook. That's just what happened. And if we want it to continue to happen, we need to stop saying "oh we're still in first" and "everything's okay" and start pressuring our GM to do what's necessary to actually win this thing.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 01:26 PM
Where do you see teams out there that don't have holes? Even the Angels, who look more and more like the best team in baseball, could stand to improve in some areas of the game? It's not that we don't see the Sox's flaws, we just believe this team has proven that it can win in its flawed state, and we believe they're better than the flawed team in Minnesota. Since you can't seem to separate that concept from "seeing everything with wearing rose-colored glasses," then it's never going to sink in.

This past off-season, you were extremely vocal about your displeasure with the organization; that the Sox were not a good team, that Detroit was much better, and they were foolish to continue to continue to try and win with this core of players. Some of us believed in the vision and plan that KW had for this team this season, and here we are, a little more than a week left in July and the White Sox are still in first place and still have an excellent chance of making the post-season. So what is it? You wanna keep patting yourself on the back, believing you're some kind of misunderstood baseball genius and the rest of us just don't get it, because we see that, despite its obvious flaws, we still have a good, potentially very good, team?

All I can say is one of the best reasons to still be excited about the Sox is your pessimism. I mean, if you were just guessing, statistically you would have been right about something by now, right?

Holy Moly!!!! Stop the presses!!!

I agree with doublem23.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 01:27 PM
Palehose:

But based on the Sox performance since the decade started, the all or nothing approach seems to be their biggest issue and being in the same division with Minnesota complicates matters.

It's always puzzled me how Ozzie and Kenny always seem to talk about how they respect and admire the way Minnesota plays the game, yet they never seem to want to get the players who can do it like the Twins.

There's a disconnect there between their statements and reality.

Lip

And I agree with Lip.

Sorry, that's not news though.

doublem23
07-22-2008, 02:32 PM
It's always puzzled me how Ozzie and Kenny always seem to talk about how they respect and admire the way Minnesota plays the game, yet they never seem to want to get the players who can do it like the Twins.

There's a disconnect there between their statements and reality.

Lip

True, but KW and Ozzie have also won a World Series this past decade, while the Twins have not.

Foulke You
07-22-2008, 03:01 PM
Palehose:

But based on the Sox performance since the decade started, the all or nothing approach seems to be their biggest issue and being in the same division with Minnesota complicates matters.

It's always puzzled me how Ozzie and Kenny always seem to talk about how they respect and admire the way Minnesota plays the game, yet they never seem to want to get the players who can do it like the Twins.

There's a disconnect there between their statements and reality.

Lip
Kenny Williams has to tailor his team to his ballpark just like the Twins do to theirs. Our park is a HR hitters park during the summer months and it would be a mistake to construct our lineup exactly like the Twins do. If we were to do that, there would be too many times loaded AL teams would out slug us in our own ballpark. Plus, recent playoff history would indicate that the Twins style of play seems to suit them during the regular season and then fail miserably against the loaded AL teams when they get to October baseball.

I will agree that this year's Sox team seems to be a bit TOO much "all or nothing" in the lineup and could use an infusion of speed and balance at the top a la 2005. Pods and Iguchi were vastly superior 1 and 2 hitters than Cabrera and AJ who are fine hitters but playing out of their element at 1 and 2 respectively. The '05 team was not without thunder in the lineup though. If you'll remember, that team also was in the top 2 in HRs in the AL. I think we have to have a good amount of sluggers in the lineup because the ballpark we play in dictates that we must.

kjhanson
07-22-2008, 03:33 PM
Everything I said in the offseason about the offense is still true. Nick Swisher is still a .240 hitter. Thome and Konerko have both shown their age and injury history. I said Quentin would be the best hitter on the team. Heck, the only guy on the offense I was wrong about was Dye, because I didn't think his legs would hold up. He is currently fighting a leg injury, though from a bean ball.


All we need to know about your prognostication skills is this:

WS Champion: Mariners

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 03:44 PM
Double:

And ironically they won that World Series because they were the most balanced team offensively the Sox have had this decade. A team that hit over 200 home runs yet also were in the top quarter in the league in stolen bases, infield hits, sacrifice flies and sacrifice bunts.

You don't win 35 or so one run games by just hitting a home run.

That is why it was so surprising given the results,that the Sox appear to have moved away from that philosophy more than at any time Kenny has been G.M.

Foulke:

Absolutely U.S. Cellular has to be a part of it. Which is why next season for example, the Sox will have more then enough "power potential" with a combination of guys in the lineup 3-7 like Quentin, Dye, Konerko, Thome, A.J. and Fields.

The issue is the top two and bottom two spots in the order. The Sox don't need 20 home run guys in those spots, the desperately do need though guys who can steal 20 bases each, move runners along, hit to the other field and get on base for said big hitters.

That's balance.

Lip

munchman33
07-22-2008, 04:00 PM
All we need to know about your prognostication skills is this:

And I also said the Rays would win the wild card.

It's a lot easier to pick teams that will be good than to pick teams that will fall apart. For the first, you only have to know the talent. For the second, it's mostly luck.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 04:10 PM
The issue is the top two and bottom two spots in the order. The Sox don't need 20 home run guys in those spots, the desperately do need though guys who can steal 20 bases each, move runners along, hit to the other field and get on base for said big hitters.

That's balance.

Lip

Lip,
I agree. Are we even close to having four guys who can steal 20 bases each.

Cabrera (probably gone), Alexei (should be good for that next year, if not this.) Richar?/ Getz?? (I hate to rely on rookies to steal unless they are true speed burners) Wise (very doubtful) Anderson (has the speed but not the technique), Owens (possible, if he's here)

jabrch
07-22-2008, 04:16 PM
Palehose:

But based on the Sox performance since the decade started, the all or nothing approach seems to be their biggest issue and being in the same division with Minnesota complicates matters.

It's always puzzled me how Ozzie and Kenny always seem to talk about how they respect and admire the way Minnesota plays the game, yet they never seem to want to get the players who can do it like the Twins.

There's a disconnect there between their statements and reality.

Lip

How do you get players like Mauer and Morneu? You get them by sucking very much. They picked #1 when they got Mauer and #8 when they got Morneu.

I never heard anyone clamouring for the great Nick Punto last year when he hit .210/.291/.271 or Alexei Casilla when he hit .222/.256/.259 last year.

You can have the Twins.

jabrch
07-22-2008, 04:19 PM
Lip,
I agree. Are we even close to having four guys who can steal 20 bases each.

Cabrera (probably gone), Alexei (should be good for that next year, if not this.) Richar?/ Getz?? (I hate to rely on rookies to steal unless they are true speed burners) Wise (very doubtful) Anderson (has the speed but not the technique), Owens (possible, if he's here)

Do the Twins have 4 guys who will steal 20 bases? I can't think of more than 1. (Gomez)

What teams in all of baseball have that? I can't think of any. Aside to Upton, Crawford and Bartlett... But heck, if we had Crawford (.269/.312/.381) and Bartlett (.256/.299/.293) we'd be getting KILLED in our ballpark.

MAYBE the Mets, if Castillo gets his job back and he, Beltran and Wright run more... I think 4 20 SB guys is a) arbitrary and b) irrelevant.

kjhanson
07-22-2008, 04:30 PM
And I also said the Rays would win the wild card.

It's a lot easier to pick teams that will be good than to pick teams that will fall apart. For the first, you only have to know the talent. For the second, it's mostly luck.

I'm just giving you a hard time. I read a lot of your old posts and two things stuck out:
1.) You had the Rays
2.) You raved over Quentin's swing and his ability to get on base

But the Mariners...come on, man!

munchman33
07-22-2008, 04:50 PM
I'm just giving you a hard time. I read a lot of your old posts and two things stuck out:
1.) You had the Rays
2.) You raved over Quentin's swing and his ability to get on base

But the Mariners...come on, man!

I thought they'd win that division with Bedard. And he and King Felix would make any series tough. Wow was I off. :redface:

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 05:00 PM
Jab:

You get players who can run, players who can hit the other way and players who can bunt by scouting, doing your homework, trading for them and signing those that become available via the free agent market.

The Twins traded for Gomez. The Twins traded for Young for example.

I'm not saying the Twins are the end-all, be are here... let's be clear about that.

But it's also a fact they have finished with a better record then the White Sox in six of the last eight years and they have made the post season four times to the White Sox two this decade.

They must be doing something right aren't they? I don't know if that reflects more on the Twins organization or the White Sox by the way.

The players the Sox need to get to have better balance and maybe just maybe, not look totally impotent on a consistent basis against garbage, mediocre or no-name pitchers are out there. It's up to the folks who are getting paid big bucks to find them by any means necessary.

I know you love the idea of hitting nothing but home runs and like I've always said, if you can guarantee me the Sox will hit two three run home runs a game, EVERY single game, I'll come over to your side of the fence.

But you can't do that...neither can the Sox and the record shows what's happened this decade when they aren't hitting two three run home runs a game.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 05:03 PM
Onda:

I think it's going to be almost impossible to find four guys who can each steal 20 bases in today's game. This isn't the 1978 Pirates or the 1985 Cardinals anymore.

However I think it's very possible even likely you can acquire two guys who can each steal 20-30. That's do-able.

The question is, do the White Sox want that type of balance? Ozzie has said he does on numerous occasions. Yet he is ignored on this point apparently.

Lip

palehozenychicty
07-22-2008, 05:07 PM
Palehose:

But based on the Sox performance since the decade started, the all or nothing approach seems to be their biggest issue and being in the same division with Minnesota complicates matters.

It's always puzzled me how Ozzie and Kenny always seem to talk about how they respect and admire the way Minnesota plays the game, yet they never seem to want to get the players who can do it like the Twins.

There's a disconnect there between their statements and reality.

Lip


Exactly. It puzzles me as well.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 05:10 PM
I looked at the current AL rankings on stolen bases and number of probably 20+ guys per team.

I took currently 12 or more as having a shot at having 20. Arbitrary number but a decent starting point, IMHO.

TBR - 3 guys
BRS - 3 guys
NYY - 3 guys
Sea - 2
Oak - 2 (both at 12)
everybody else has 1 or none.

Since that is 3 of the 4 teams ahead of the White Sox in the standings that have 3 guys each, I don't think it's a bad idea to consider it.

I agree that USCF is built for the homer, but fences can be moved back or home plate could be moved to reduce the foul ground.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 05:11 PM
It says something when power teams like the Red Sox and Yankees apparently have moved to a more balanced approach doesn't it?

Lip

Foulke You
07-22-2008, 05:35 PM
It says something when power teams like the Red Sox and Yankees apparently have moved to a more balanced approach doesn't it?

Lip
That is certainly a good observation Lip. Kevin Youkalis and Dustin Pedroia at the top of that Red Sox lineup is as good a 1-2 punch as you'll find in the AL. Kevin Youkalis's OBP is usually tops in the AL every year and his batting avg. is above .300 regularly. Jacoby Elsbury also has added a dose of speed to their lineup so they do have guys to set the table at 9-1-2 for Manny, Ortiz, and Drew.

I think when Kenny was building the '08 Sox he envisioned Owens leading off and Cabrera batting 2nd as he did so well in Anaheim. However, Owens got hurt and Carlos Quentin is such a ridiculously good hitter that there was no way we could take him out of that LF spot for the speedy Owens once he became healthy. The emergence of Alexei Ramirez has also prevented the Sox from adding a "true" leadoff man at the 2B position thus putting the Sox offense in the state that it is now. Quentin and Ramirez's emergence while a huge blessing for the organization, has made it very difficult for Kenny Williams to do anything about the leadoff spot in the short term. I have a feeling they'll probably let Cabrera leave via free agency, move Alexei over to SS for '09, and look outside the organization for a speedy 2B type who can leadoff.

WhiteSoxOnly
07-22-2008, 07:38 PM
That is certainly a good observation Lip. Kevin Youkalis and Dustin Pedroia at the top of that Red Sox lineup is as good a 1-2 punch as you'll find in the AL. Kevin Youkalis's OBP is usually tops in the AL every year and his batting avg. is above .300 regularly. Jacoby Elsbury also has added a dose of speed to their lineup so they do have guys to set the table at 9-1-2 for Manny, Ortiz, and Drew.

I think when Kenny was building the '08 Sox he envisioned Owens leading off and Cabrera batting 2nd as he did so well in Anaheim. However, Owens got hurt and Carlos Quentin is such a ridiculously good hitter that there was no way we could take him out of that LF spot for the speedy Owens once he became healthy. The emergence of Alexei Ramirez has also prevented the Sox from adding a "true" leadoff man at the 2B position thus putting the Sox offense in the state that it is now. Quentin and Ramirez's emergence while a huge blessing for the organization, has made it very difficult for Kenny Williams to do anything about the leadoff spot in the short term. I have a feeling they'll probably let Cabrera leave via free agency, move Alexei over to SS for '09, and look outside the organization for a speedy 2B type who can leadoff.

Like Chone Figgins ?

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 09:27 PM
That is certainly a good observation Lip...

Drat, I do the stats, and he gets the praise.

FarWestChicago
07-22-2008, 10:03 PM
Drat, I do the stats, and he gets the praise.Look at all the stats Lip has invented. He creates at least one new one per night to show the Sox are doomed. He makes BP and all the statheads look pedestrian. You had no chance.

ondafarm
07-22-2008, 10:56 PM
Look at all the stats Lip has invented. He creates at least one new one per night to show the Sox are doomed. He makes BP and all the statheads look pedestrian. You had no chance.

Touche.

Optipessimism
07-22-2008, 10:56 PM
It says something when power teams like the Red Sox and Yankees apparently have moved to a more balanced approach doesn't it?

Lip
The Yankees aren't all that fleet of foot. They have some more speed than we do, but speed isn't their game.

The Red Sox get a lot of their effective speed from Jacoby Ellsbury who they drafted and developed. Those kinds of players are hard to come by.

You made a comment before about the Sox respecting the way the Twins play but not going after Twins-like players, and I'd like to respond to that.

Firstly, the Twins are very, very open to some severe criticisms for how they have run their organization. There have been several times this decade, as you have pointed out, that they've won the division. There have been even more occasions including the 4 playoff trips you've mentioned where the Twins were only 1-2 players away from being World Series contenders yet their front office never went out and made the trades and free agent signings necessary to put them over the top. IIRC after the 2006 season in which when the Twins played video game-like baseball during the second half and stole the division away from 2 and arguably 3 other teams with more on-field talent, they went into the 2007 season with the most significant additions being Tony Batista, Sidney Ponson, and Ramon Ortiz. They've pulled this **** on their fans before and it is a wonder why they still have any.

Kenny Williams would never sit on his hands during the season and over the offseason while his team is only a player or two away from being serious WS contenders. And I strongly doubt that Reinsdorf, despite a lot of criticism, much of which is deserved for things he's done in the past, will ever want to "play it like the Twins" again now that the Sox have been rejuvenated in the city.

The bottom line is, the Twins play great fundamental baseball, they have one of the best if not the very best manager in the business right now, they benefit from playing in a dome, they have talented player development and scouting staffs, and they do a good job drafting good to above average ballplayers. The Twins don't produce many superstars and when they do they are hesitant to keep them.

If you compare that to the Sox, the Sox have actually drafted and developed more superstar-caliber players over the years even though they haven't had the best development system they could. Their scouts have come across some nice finds, and the players they've picked up they've mostly been able to hold on to if they wanted. The Sox however, because of the park they play in, have been a slugging team most of this decade and that is the exact type of team tailor-made to lose to a pitching and defense-based ballclub. Fortunately the old approach has changed since Ozzie was hired.

Anyway, the whole point I'm trying to make is that it is a very good thing we don't act like the Twins. Aside from taking some pointers from them as far as minor league player development and situational hitting philosophies, I want nothing to do with their scheme. Imagine the Sox winning 96 games, losing a pitcher like Radke to retirement plus Liriano due to injury, and then coming back with the same collection of generally average ballplayers plus Ramon Ortiz, Sidney Ponson, and Tony Batista. Sox fans would be ****ing killing themselves.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2008, 11:40 PM
A few things:

Foulke, I think your scenario is exactly what is going to happen next season. Ramirez will be at short and they'll be looking for a lead off type/ speed guy who can play second. I don't know who that may be, (Orlando Hudson?) but I'm thinking you are right on the money with your guess.

Opti:

Your point is valid but remember this. The fact that the Twins won't go out and spend the big money isn't (or wasn't) the fault of Terry Ryan or the front office. When you have one of the biggest skinflints as an owner, who actually agreed to a settlement with MLB to fold his team in 2002, yet is one of the ten richest men on the planet according to Forbes Magazine, that's a millstone around your neck that even Atlas couldn't handle. And they have started to spend money with the new stadium on the way...Morneau has been extended, Nathan was re-signed. We'll see if their attitude on this changes in the next few years.

The fact that they have gotten where they have and accomplished what they have WITH that monumental obstacle around their necks is worth serious pause for thought.

Regarding your last line about having guys like Bautista, Ponson and so forth. If they went out and won 95 games in the season, Sox fans would be estatic. (and while Minnesota didn't with those particular players they made a ton of hay with similar journeyman types haven't they?) Sox fans don't care about the names on the back of the jersey or the "reputation" of a player in my opinion.

They care about three things only. Do you play hard? Do you give a damn? and ultimately what is the won/lost record.

Lip

Optipessimism
07-22-2008, 11:57 PM
A few things:

Foulke, I think your scenario is exactly what is going to happen next season. Ramirez will be at short and they'll be looking for a lead off type/ speed guy who can play second. I don't know who that may be, (Orlando Hudson?) but I'm thinking you are right on the money with your guess.

Opti:

Your point is valid but remember this. The fact that the Twins won't go out and spend the big money isn't (or wasn't) the fault of Terry Ryan or the front office. When you have one of the biggest skinflints as an owner, who actually agreed to a settlement with MLB to fold his team in 2002, yet is one of the ten richest men on the planet according to Forbes Magazine, that's a millstone around your neck that even Atlas couldn't handle. And they have started to spend money with the new stadium on the way...Morneau has been extended, Nathan was re-signed. We'll see if their attitude on this changes in the next few years.

The fact that they have gotten where they have and accomplished what they have WITH that monumental obstacle around their necks is worth serious pause for thought.

Regarding your last line about having guys like Bautista, Ponson and so forth. If they went out and won 95 games in the season, Sox fans would be estatic. (and while Minnesota didn't with those particular players they made a ton of hay with similar journeyman types haven't they?) Sox fans don't care about the names on the back of the jersey or the "reputation" of a player in my opinion.

They care about three things only. Do you play hard? Do you give a damn? and ultimately what is the won/lost record.

Lip
The owner is to blame certainly, but the owner is just as important, if not more so, than anyone else in the organization because he is the one that ultimately decides who comes and goes contractually. For an organization as a whole, as a diehard baseball fan I could not accept what the Twins have failed to do. I've been a Sox fan since I was born but if the Sox pulled that kind of **** I'd pick another team because in my mind winning a division doesn't mean anything unless you at least make it to the Series.

Individually I respect certain members of the organization for getting so much out of such limited resources, but that's about it. It's easy to see how some Twins fans can be driven into Timberwolf Territory by such poor ownership.

I also strongly disagree with your statement about Sox fans not caring about the names on the backs of the jerseys. When you see names like "Tony Batista," "Ramon Ortiz," and "Sidney Ponson," you automatically know you've got some real dog**** on the field and you are automatically disappointed as a result. At least that's me, and that was exactly the way I felt last year seeing that "Erstad" guy out there among others.

jabrch
07-23-2008, 12:02 AM
Jab:

You get players who can run, players who can hit the other way and players who can bunt by scouting, doing your homework, trading for them and signing those that become available via the free agent market.



That's fine - but those aren't the kind of players that win you games in USCF. It is nice to have one at the top of the order, but if you fill your team with them, you are sub-optimizing.

The Twins traded for Gomez. The Twins traded for Young for example.

Lip - they gave up Johan Santana and Matt Garza. Neither of those were admirable trades. Young is hitting .297/.340/.402 and Gomez is hitting .247/.281/.345. I wouldn't want EITHER of them at the cost that the Twins paid to get them. If Williams EVER made a deal like those he'd be freaking crucified and you know it.

But it's also a fact they have finished with a better record then the White Sox in six of the last eight years and they have made the post season four times to the White Sox two this decade.

They must be doing something right aren't they? I don't know if that reflects more on the Twins organization or the White Sox by the way.

They have also sucked more. The Twins are more than willing to go out there and rebuild. The current team is as much a reflection of their great scouting and development as it is of the fact that they went 8 straight seasons under .500 before this run started in 2001, 7 of them were WORSE than 2007 was for the Sox.

Lip - even you would run out of breath complaining if we went through that sort of rebuilding...well, maybe not.

The players the Sox need to get to have better balance and maybe just maybe, not look totally impotent on a consistent basis against garbage, mediocre or no-name pitchers are out there. It's up to the folks who are getting paid big bucks to find them by any means necessary.

Nobody has shown me much to believe this team is any less consistent than any other similar payroll team that will win 90 +/-5 games this year.

I know you love the idea of hitting nothing but home runs

I do? I missed where I said that, or even implied that. I was a fan of Pods. I'm a fan of a guy like JO. But asking for 4 of them is silly. Sure - we'd love guys who hit .300/.400/.500 with 20 SBs. But for that matter, you take your 4 Nick Puntos at the top and bottom, give me 4 .300/.400/.500 guys, and my team will beat your team. (now back to the real world, where neither of those teams exist)

and like I've always said, if you can guarantee me the Sox will hit two three run home runs a game, EVERY single game, I'll come over to your side of the fence.

That's awful nice of you...If I guarantee you the impossible, you will agree with me? Life doesn't work that way.

But you can't do that...neither can the Sox and the record shows what's happened this decade when they aren't hitting two three run home runs a game.

I'm not sure this decade is as bad as you think. +.500 every season except one since 2000. 1st or 2nd in the division 10 times since 1996. Sure - we'd like more post season trips. But you saw how our fans behaved during/after ONE bad season. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to convince anyone that this team should "rebuild"? Do you SERIOUSLY think our fans have the stomach/brains to handle 3 or 4 seasons in a row like last year? I don't see it. One half of one of those seasons and our fans were pissing and moaning about how terrible management was, how bad our players are, etc. If we did what Minny did, what FLA did, what DET did, what CLE did, etc, our "fans" wouldn't be fans for long. We'd be back to about 1.4-1.6 mm fans and management would have to react to that in order to defend their position in this market.

For all you love this team, you sure seem quick to point to fault instead of look to what is good in it.

WhiteSox5187
07-23-2008, 01:44 AM
I just want to add to this discussion that what I think is particularly amazing about the Twins this year is that they went out and traded guys like Santana (who else did they trade? Garza? Was that it?) and are STILL in contention. While guys like Young and Gomez aren't putting up great numbers they are obviously still contributing to the Twins winning. If we ever have to rebuild I'd LOVE to have us rebuild the way the Twins are doing right now, a bunch of young guys with seemingly lots of potential and instead of writing this year off, they're in the thick of the race! It's hardly rebuilding when you're still chasing a playoff spot.

Finally, I think what Lip is saying (and a statement that I agree with) isn't that we need to go younger or cheaper or that we need to ditch long ball guys like Swisher, Thome, Dye and Konerko (if he ever hits again!). I think what he's saying is that you can't have a line up of nine guys who can only do one thing: hit the homerun. You want to have a couple of guys (ideally 1-2 and 8-9) who are capable of getting on base, bunting guys over and stealing 20+ bases a year. But I don't think anyone is calling for the return of '67 style White Sox baseball where we had nine guys who could bunt and steal but no one capable of hitting 20+ HRs. You're crazy if you don't have a bit of power in a park like USCF, but what would be better would be to have some speed guys who are capable of creating their own scoring opportunties.

Nellie_Fox
07-23-2008, 02:50 AM
I just want to add to this discussion that what I think is particularly amazing about the Twins this year is that they went out and traded guys like Santana (who else did they trade? Garza? Was that it?) and are STILL in contention. While guys like Young and Gomez aren't putting up great numbers they are obviously still contributing to the Twins winning. If we ever have to rebuild I'd LOVE to have us rebuild the way the Twins are doing right now, a bunch of young guys with seemingly lots of potential and instead of writing this year off, they're in the thick of the race! It's hardly rebuilding when you're still chasing a playoff spot.I'm not posting to argue with you. I agree with your post.

However, shift into WSI mode here. Imagine this was the Sox you are talking about, and they had traded away their best pitcher and were now in second place, looking up at the Twins. People here would be going nuts, calling for the head of everyone in the Sox' front office. Hell, the Sox are in first, and people are going nuts.

Frater Perdurabo
07-23-2008, 08:35 AM
Why is unreasonable to ask that the Sox be as smart as the Twins at drafting and developing/teaching young players in the minors, so that when they are brought up to the majors, they know how to play all facets of the game well? This is not mutually exclusive of ALSO using the superior market position and resources to retain those fundamentally sound players and sign free agents to fill in the gaps.

Bottom line: I want the Sox to be as smart as the Twins but also spend money intelligently and liberally.

jabrch
07-23-2008, 08:36 AM
I'm not posting to argue with you. I agree with your post.

However, shift into WSI mode here. Imagine this was the Sox you are talking about, and they had traded away their best pitcher and were now in second place, looking up at the Twins. People here would be going nuts, calling for the head of everyone in the Sox' front office. Hell, the Sox are in first, and people are going nuts.


We'd see this long before we'd get tosecond place. If the Sox traded Mark in 2007 when we were out of it, there would have been very few people who wouldn't have gone nuts - regardless of what we got.

ma-gaga
07-23-2008, 08:42 AM
Kenny Williams has to tailor his team to his ballpark just like the Twins do to theirs. Our park is a HR hitters park during the summer months and it would be a mistake to construct our lineup exactly like the Twins do. If we were to do that, there would be too many times loaded AL teams would out slug us in our own ballpark. Plus, recent playoff history would indicate that the Twins style of play seems to suit them during the regular season and then fail miserably against the loaded AL teams when they get to October baseball.


:thumbsup: That is the best way to state it. You tailor your team to your home park. Any other roster management would be suicide.

Regarding the Playoff portion. The best playoff team the Twins had got swept by the A's. The worst playoff team the Twins had beat the A's in 5 games. The other two playoff teams ran into the Yankees. Gardenhire has a "Yankee Complex" and can't seem to beat them. :angry: So, part of it is who you play as well as how well you play.

How do you get players like Mauer and Morneu? You get them by sucking very much. They picked #1 when they got Mauer and #8 when they got Morneu.

Just picking nits. Morneau was drafted #89 overall.

aww, how cute is that, he has his own Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Morneau) page. (Although, I'm sure I've just scratched the surface here...)

ondafarm
07-23-2008, 08:50 AM
Finally, I think what Lip is saying (and a statement that I agree with) isn't that we need to go younger or cheaper or that we need to ditch long ball guys like Swisher, Thome, Dye and Konerko (if he ever hits again!). I think what he's saying is that you can't have a line up of nine guys who can only do one thing: hit the homerun. You want to have a couple of guys (ideally 1-2 and 8-9) who are capable of getting on base, bunting guys over and stealing 20+ bases a year. But I don't think anyone is calling for the return of '67 style White Sox baseball where we had nine guys who could bunt and steal but no one capable of hitting 20+ HRs. You're crazy if you don't have a bit of power in a park like USCF, but what would be better would be to have some speed guys who are capable of creating their own scoring opportunties.

I've said it before, to win a championship you need a team which can win in different ways. A great pitchers duel which ends 2-1 or 1-0, a 13-9 slugfest and a 6-4 my two rallies beat your lone rally game. I'm not saying you have to be able to win all of all of those types, but you need to be able to. That includes at home or on the road. The little guys who do stolen bases help with a couple of those types of games.

Frontman
07-23-2008, 09:15 AM
I've said it before, to win a championship you need a team which can win in different ways. A great pitchers duel which ends 2-1 or 1-0, a 13-9 slugfest and a 6-4 my two rallies beat your lone rally game. I'm not saying you have to be able to win all of all of those types, but you need to be able to. That includes at home or on the road. The little guys who do stolen bases help with a couple of those types of games.

But you'll agree ondafarm; is that to win in those different styles of games, things have to come together. For example, a non-homer rally might come along for your team that is mostly power sluggers. Or maybe a speed player is asked to bunt and beats out the throw, loading them up or he causes an errant throw, bringing a run home. Or even that non-homer hitting batter slugs out a go ahead run out of nowhere.

I think a GM can try to set out to have all the tools to win in every situation; knowing that he can't fill every need. Sometimes players have to go outside their specialty or perform above their career average/skill set and rise to the occassion.

I know this will immediately get the "but it isn't 2005" response, but look at that squad the Sox had. Look at how many moments players, who are no longer in the league mind you; performed at such a level that they never did before or since.

It all has to come together.

palehozenychicty
07-23-2008, 10:03 AM
Why is unreasonable to ask that the Sox be as smart as the Twins at drafting and developing/teaching young players in the minors, so that when they are brought up to the majors, they know how to play all facets of the game well? This is not mutually exclusive of ALSO using the superior market position and resources to retain those fundamentally sound players and sign free agents to fill in the gaps.

Bottom line: I want the Sox to be as smart as the Twins but also spend money intelligently and liberally.


The Angels and the Red Sox are probably the best organizations at this right now, of using their superior market position and resources to not only sign free agents, but develop their own talent from within the minor league system. The only thing with the Angels is that they haven't made the big trade or FA signing to support Guerrero with power. I've been hearing for years about the potential of Brandon Wood, Kendry Morales, and Nick Adenhart, but these guys haven't played.

This is the model that the Sox should be emulating, and with diligence they can get there.

jabrch
07-23-2008, 10:29 AM
Just picking nits. Morneau was drafted #89 overall.

I assumed someone would remind us of that - but he was the 6th pick in the 3 rd round. I know - he was passed on 2 times by every team - but none the less, drafting early is what enabled them to get him at the top of 3...

ondafarm
07-23-2008, 10:43 AM
But you'll agree ondafarm; is that to win in those different styles of games, things have to come together. For example, a non-homer rally might come along for your team that is mostly power sluggers. Or maybe a speed player is asked to bunt and beats out the throw, loading them up or he causes an errant throw, bringing a run home. Or even that non-homer hitting batter slugs out a go ahead run out of nowhere.

I think a GM can try to set out to have all the tools to win in every situation; knowing that he can't fill every need. Sometimes players have to go outside their specialty or perform above their career average/skill set and rise to the occassion.

I know this will immediately get the "but it isn't 2005" response, but look at that squad the Sox had. Look at how many moments players, who are no longer in the league mind you; performed at such a level that they never did before or since.

It all has to come together.

Is there a question here?

Good teams can be built by the GM by acquiring good players. That can be via good drafting and development, by signing good guys FA, and or by making good trades. Hopefully, all three.

Great teams also require solid management.

If you are expecting an arguement from me, or anyone on that, sorry to disappoint.

I, for one, think that the Tigers have made several bad moves and that has caught up with them. I have nothing but respect for Leyland, he keeps his team in position to win games, but the team chemistry there is badly flawed, IMHO.

Frontman
07-23-2008, 11:22 AM
Not trying to argue, ondafarm. I'm just saying that sometimes even the best plans will still fall short; and it takes a few lucky breaks or something "outside the box" to happen to allow a team to go to the next level.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2008, 12:58 PM
Jab:

No one (at least not me) is talking about a lineup full of slap happy, base stealers. If you saw one of my posts I said the Sox should be fine from a power standpoint with the combination of folks they have at the 3-7 spots in the lineup next year and that U.S. Cellular should play a factor in the team (but also remember you play 81 games on the road, including pitcher friendly parks like Detroit, Seattle and Oakland...)

We're talking about balance here. That means the top two and bottom two spots in the order need to be filled by a different type of player.

The Sox have had a fine decade. As you know that bottom line with me when all is said and done is "have a winning season." At least if you get that there is something worth remembering, something to take pride in. By and large the Sox have done this.

But it's hard to forget 2003. It's hard to forget 2006. It's hard to see Minnesota get to the playoffs four times in less then a decade including three straight times (which is something the Sox have never done.) It's hard to win a World Series if you are on the golf course the first week of October.

To a certain extent sometimes I think, why aren't the Sox dominating this division like the Yankees did theres?

Chicago's the biggest market, the Sox usually spend the most money (although Detroit now does), yet the results just haven't added up.

Again I'm not saying Minnesota is the way all franchises are supposed to be run, but they've done a pretty damn fine job and I think the Sox can take some lessons from them.

Lip

hi im skot
07-23-2008, 01:11 PM
It's hard to win a World Series if you are on the golf course the first week of October.

The 2005 Minnesota Twins agree.


Ultimately, I hate the Twins because I respect them. They do a lot of things right, but in the times they've made the playoffs this decade, they don't go far.

The 2000 edition of the Sox had a solid regular season and saw their first playoff berth since '93. However, they were dreadful against Seattle and went home early, much like the Twins of recent years.

Sure, it's nice to make the playoffs, but if you don't get the job done, I'm not really all that impressed.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2008, 01:20 PM
Skot:

I'd much rather win 93 or so games in the regular season and lose in the first round of the playoffs, to not having that chance. Wouldn't you?

Even if you lose three in a row in the first round and get shut out in every game you still had a hell of a season in my book. You had to, just to get that chance in the first place.

Unless you play in the mediocre N.L. where you can actually get in the post season with 85-86 wins, it's no shame to lose in the first round of the playoffs in the A.L.

Lip

hellview
07-23-2008, 01:23 PM
I assumed someone would remind us of that - but he was the 6th pick in the 3 rd round. I know - he was passed on 2 times by every team - but none the less, drafting early is what enabled them to get him at the top of 3...

WHAT?!?!?!

ondafarm
07-23-2008, 03:11 PM
Not trying to argue, ondafarm. I'm just saying that sometimes even the best plans will still fall short; and it takes a few lucky breaks or something "outside the box" to happen to allow a team to go to the next level.

Point taken.

WhiteSox5187
07-23-2008, 04:03 PM
I'm not posting to argue with you. I agree with your post.

However, shift into WSI mode here. Imagine this was the Sox you are talking about, and they had traded away their best pitcher and were now in second place, looking up at the Twins. People here would be going nuts, calling for the head of everyone in the Sox' front office. Hell, the Sox are in first, and people are going nuts.
Oh I know WSI would go nuts and I'd probably be ripping management along with everyone else but if after all of those moves we're still in contention in July, I'd say that's a succesful way to rebuild. Ultimately management has to do what htey think is best, not what WSI thinks is best.

palehozenychicty
07-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Well, at least the Twins turned into pumpkins again at the sight of The Pinstripes. If only we could come back in this game...:(:

RadioheadRocks
07-23-2008, 10:47 PM
Well, at least the Twins turned into pumpkins again at the sight of The Pinstripes. If only we could come back in this game...:(:

Ask and ye shall receive, my friend! :bandance:

thomas35forever
08-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Will the Tribe give us a break tonight? If they had Rick Vaughn going, they might have a chance.

turners56
08-02-2008, 07:58 PM
Will the Tribe give us a break tonight? If they had Rick Vaughn going, they might have a chance.

It's already 1-0 Twins. The Indians can't hit. Maybe Wedge should get a clue and start hitting Sizemore down in the 3rd slot where he can be more productive to the team.

turners56
08-02-2008, 08:13 PM
3-1 Chief Wahoos. Dellucci scored on a Peralta double and Shoppach drives Peralta and himself in with a two run shot. Go tribe!

Kelly Shoppach is slowly becoming a very good hitter. .278 12 HR and 33 RBI now with a .800+ OPS.

arKnaD7
08-02-2008, 08:31 PM
Dellucci 2 run HR

5-1 Tribe :D:

thomas35forever
08-02-2008, 08:32 PM
Halfway through, Tribe up 5-1 after David Dellucci hits a two-run shot.

Viva Medias B's
08-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Halfway through, Tribe up 5-1 after David Dellucci hits a two-run shot.

And we all know the Twins never come back from four-run deficits at home.

FarWestChicago
08-02-2008, 08:40 PM
And we all know the Twins never come back from four-run deficits at home.Whether they do or not, change your panties.

turners56
08-02-2008, 08:41 PM
And we all know the Twins never come back from four-run deficits at home.

And we all know the Indians bullpen is extremely solid.

Viva Medias B's
08-02-2008, 08:43 PM
Whether they do or not, change your panties.

Just being funny. That's all.

MarySwiss
08-02-2008, 09:00 PM
I really hope the Tribe's lead holds up, but it would surprise the hell out of me, all things considered (TwinkieDome, no CC or Blake).

That said, let's go Tribe!!!!

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2008, 09:04 PM
It would be great for Timbertroll to be disappointed tonight...Go Cleveland!

Viva Medias B's
08-02-2008, 09:06 PM
Still looking good through 6 2/3 innings with Cleveland up 5-1.

oeo
08-02-2008, 09:08 PM
I really hope the Tribe's lead holds up, but it would surprise the hell out of me, all things considered (TwinkieDome, no CC or Blake).

That said, let's go Tribe!!!!

You've got to think that the Twins won't be able to come back from all these early deficits forever. Eventually their recent starting pitching problems are going to start hurting.

thomas35forever
08-02-2008, 09:12 PM
Time for the Indians to hand the ball to the 'pen. Byrd pitched one helluva game.

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:13 PM
Byrd's got 99 pitches thru seven. If he can do the complete game, I'll be happy.

Edit: Maybe happy isn't the right word. I'll feel better.

Viva Medias B's
08-02-2008, 09:18 PM
And remember that Minnesota still has road games, where they do not do very well (23-28, .451). We are just behind them the road at 26-32 (.448). However, we have only 23 road games remaining while the Twins have 30. Conversely, we have 30 home games while Minnesota has 23. We are 35-16 at home (.686) while the Twins are 38-20 (.655) which does not include this Cleveland game in progress. I'd say we have a good advantage here.

MarySwiss
08-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Byrd's got 99 pitches thru seven. If he can do the complete game, I'll be happy.

Edit: Maybe happy isn't the right word. I'll feel better.

Happy is the exact word. As long as it's a complete game win! :smile:

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:22 PM
And remember that Minnesota still has road games, where they do not do very well (23-28, .451). We are just behind them the road at 26-32 (.448). However, we have only 23 road games remaining while the Twins have 30. Conversely, we have 30 home games while Minnesota has 23. We are 35-16 at home (.686) while the Twins are 38-20 (.655) which does not include this Cleveland game in progress. I'd say we have a good advantage here.


On the Twins broadcast, they were spinning it that they're only playing two teams with winning records in the month of August. So, they feel they have the advantage.

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:22 PM
Happy is the exact word. As long as it's a complete game win! :smile:


Bullpen. :cower:

Who's Cleveland's closer since they got rid of Borowski?

thomas35forever
08-02-2008, 09:26 PM
Bullpen. :cower:

Who's Cleveland's closer since they got rid of Borowski?
I think Kobayashi.

Perez shuts down the heart of the order. One more inning!

turners56
08-02-2008, 09:29 PM
I think Kobayashi.

Perez shuts down the heart of the order. One more inning!

I think they might keep Rafael out there just in case. Kobayashi sucks.

It's Dankerific
08-02-2008, 09:30 PM
I believe I had this one in today's gamethread. The Twins haven't won ****.

MarySwiss
08-02-2008, 09:33 PM
Bullpen. :cower:

Who's Cleveland's closer since they got rid of Borowski?
Who was Cleveland's closer when they HAD Borowski? :smile:

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:33 PM
I think they might keep Rafael out there just in case. Kobayashi sucks.


God, I hope so.

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:35 PM
Who was Cleveland's closer when they HAD Borowski? :smile:


lol.. I liked Joe. Maybe the Twins want to pick him up? Give Nathan a break every once in a while

thomas35forever
08-02-2008, 09:36 PM
lol.. I liked Joe. Maybe the Twins want to pick him up? Give Nathan a break every once in a while
:praying:

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:37 PM
Ok.. Perez is still out there. .. deep breath

turners56
08-02-2008, 09:40 PM
One out to go.

Viva Medias B's
08-02-2008, 09:40 PM
:twinslose

turners56
08-02-2008, 09:41 PM
TWINS LOSE!!!!

SOX STILL IN FIRST!

That made my day.

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:41 PM
:twinslose

MarySwiss
08-02-2008, 09:41 PM
Suh-WEEEET!!!!

sox1970
08-02-2008, 09:43 PM
53

thomas35forever
08-02-2008, 09:45 PM
Cleveland Rocks!:Rocker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vl5FWUMnNM

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2008, 09:46 PM
On the Twins broadcast, they were spinning it that they're only playing two teams with winning records in the month of August. So, they feel they have the advantage.
And one of those is a huge four-game series IN Los Angeles! There are no easy series on the road in the American League. Even Seattle and Kansas City can beat you at their home ballparks.

Here's an interesting stat: The Twins have had 11 chances to leapfrog our Sox and move into first place. The Twins are 0-11 in that situation.

I think we need JB98 to chime in on this thread with his famous line, since that other thread was locked.

turners56
08-02-2008, 09:47 PM
And one of those is a huge four-game series IN Los Angeles! There are no easy series on the road in the American League. Even Seattle and Kansas City can beat you at their home ballparks.

Here's an interesting stat: The Twins have had 11 chances to leapfrog our Sox and move into first place. The Twins are 0-11 in that situation.

I think we need JB98 to chime in on this thread with his famous line.

The Twins are crappy, they are perpetual losers.

SoxGirl4Life
08-02-2008, 09:47 PM
And one of those is a huge four-game series IN Los Angeles! There are no easy series on the road in the American League. Even Seattle and Kansas City can beat you at their home ballparks.

Here's an interesting stat: The Twins have had 11 chances to leapfrog our Sox and move into first place. The Twins are 0-11 in that situation.

I think we need JB98 to chime in on this thread with his famous line, since that other thread was locked.


That's gotta start playing with their heads, don'tcha think?

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2008, 09:51 PM
That's gotta start playing with their heads, don'tcha think?
Well, they ARE perpetual losers, so it must say SOMETHING about them.

I'm as upset about today's loss as anyone; but, this makes it much easier to stomach! We can hold on to first place for at least another day. Tomorrow Ginter takes on Liriano. Then, they go to Seattle and KC.

MarySwiss
08-02-2008, 09:53 PM
Cleveland Rocks!:Rocker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vl5FWUMnNM

Beat me--and I'm sure a bunch of others--to it!!!!! :smile:

sox1970
08-02-2008, 09:55 PM
Well, they ARE perpetual losers, so it must say SOMETHING about them.

I'm as upset about today's loss as anyone; but, this makes it much easier to stomach! We can hold on to first place for at least another day. Tomorrow Ginter takes on Liriano. Then, they go to Seattle and KC.

As long as the Twins lose at least one game per series at home, I'm happy. They'll tank on the road.

Frontman
08-02-2008, 10:03 PM
I can't believe I'm about to type this, but thank God for the Indians.

Wow. So, one more day in first. The Sox need to do it tomorrow.

illini81887
08-02-2008, 10:20 PM
thank you paul byrd

Lip Man 1
08-02-2008, 11:19 PM
Fanatic:

That is a GREAT stat. Kudos for coming up with it.

I hope that "trend" continues.

Lip

FarWestChicago
08-02-2008, 11:35 PM
Fanatic:

That is a GREAT stat. Kudos for coming up with it.

I hope that "trend" continues.

LipYes, Lip has found a stat inventing buddy. I'm happy for you. :cool:

anewman35
08-02-2008, 11:56 PM
This is amusing:


"We're right where we want to be -- chasing," Morneau said. "The pressure is on them to keep winning and stay in first."


Right. They WANT to not be in first. I'm sure that's why they keep losing when they have the chance.

It's Dankerific
08-03-2008, 12:17 AM
This is amusing:



Right. They WANT to not be in first. I'm sure that's why they keep losing when they have the chance.


Funny, its right where I want them to be too!

thomas35forever
08-03-2008, 12:19 AM
Funny, its right where I want them to be too!
I think that's where all Sox fans want them.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-03-2008, 12:25 AM
I was out, came home and and as I was coming up the stairs I was saying to myself, please can the Indians have won? Please can the Twins just lose?

Going to be a long August. I'm not usually in this bad a shape this early. :rolleyes:

Whitesoxfan23
08-03-2008, 01:45 AM
Morneau is an arrogant tool. The more he says, the more I dislike the guy.

asindc
08-03-2008, 02:04 AM
This is amusing:



Right. They WANT to not be in first. I'm sure that's why they keep losing when they have the chance.

Well, they can keep chasing the entire season then. Let's make it happen for Morneau. We'll all be happy at the end.

MarySwiss
08-03-2008, 10:26 AM
This is amusing:



Right. They WANT to not be in first. I'm sure that's why they keep losing when they have the chance.

Funny, its right where I want them to be too!

I think that's where all Sox fans want them.

Not me! I want them to be somewhere far away. I hear the planet Saturn is nice this time of year. :cool:

oeo
08-03-2008, 10:55 AM
I was out, came home and and as I was coming up the stairs I was saying to myself, please can the Indians have won? Please can the Twins just lose?

Going to be a long August. I'm not usually in this bad a shape this early. :rolleyes:

With Contreras and Crede, then Linebrink coming back, things should get a whole lot better for our Sox. We've played terrible over the past month, and still reside in first place...I'd say we're in pretty good shape.

hawkjt
08-03-2008, 12:01 PM
Actually, this was the 13th time the twins failed to leapfrog the sox when given the chance. Last week on Wednesday it was their 11th failure..then friday nite and last nite. Now today will be their 14th try....please sox...win today and foil them again.

StormKaos
08-07-2008, 11:33 AM
Face it, the twins arnt that good so whats all the commotion about? The sox will come through and win the division...:bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance ::bandance: (now its

peanut butter jelly time!)

BigPapaPump
08-07-2008, 01:48 PM
Face it, the twins arnt that good so whats all the commotion about? The sox will come through and win the division...:bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance ::bandance: (now its

peanut butter jelly time!)

:welcome:

thomas35forever
08-12-2008, 10:31 PM
5-3 Yankees in the seventh.

thomas35forever
08-12-2008, 10:58 PM
6-3 Yanks going into the bottom of the eighth. Marte relieves Mussina.

PeteWard
08-12-2008, 11:01 PM
6-3 Yanks going into the bottom of the eighth. Marte relieves Mussina.


Good God that lead will not last with him pitching.

CHISOXFAN13
08-12-2008, 11:01 PM
5-3 Yankees in the seventh.

Marte comes in with a 6-3 lead. I don't feel comfortable.

Whitesoxfan23
08-12-2008, 11:03 PM
Marte is getting squeezed very badly..

thomas35forever
08-12-2008, 11:08 PM
Rivera coming in to try and nail down the final five outs.

illini81887
08-12-2008, 11:11 PM
CRAP tied up

Harry Potter
08-12-2008, 11:11 PM
:angry:

hi im skot
08-12-2008, 11:11 PM
You've gotta be ****ting me.

october23sp
08-12-2008, 11:11 PM
How ****ing lucky can one ballclub get?

Whitesoxfan23
08-12-2008, 11:11 PM
Tie game. Ugh. Dangit.

PeteWard
08-12-2008, 11:12 PM
Damaso and Mariano cough it up. 6-6. :angry:

Rdy2PlayBall
08-12-2008, 11:12 PM
Twins 6-6 tie... of course. Hope the Sox will end up in first by the end of today.

Soxman219
08-12-2008, 11:13 PM
Twins tied it on a Delmon Young HR. 6-6 now :o::(:

Blueprint1
08-12-2008, 11:14 PM
How ****ing lucky can one ballclub get?

Can you really call it luck at this point? This Twins team is good.

D'Sphitz
08-12-2008, 11:14 PM
How ****ing lucky can one ballclub get?

After awhile, like 8 years, I think it's time to consider that it's not always luck.

I don't know where to find the stats, but I think I heard the Twins are ranked #1 in comeback wins this year.

thomas35forever
08-12-2008, 11:14 PM
This poster from NYYFans.com says it best:

Thanks for putting 2 men on and ruining this game you ................in *******...JOE STOP RUNNING THIS PEICE OF GARBAGE OUT THERE!

sox1970
08-12-2008, 11:15 PM
Can you really call it luck at this point? This Twins team is good.

Agreed. They've fooled me long enough.

WhiteSox5187
08-12-2008, 11:17 PM
Thats a big IF, but I hope so! :tongue: It's the 9th, if the Yankees score there is a big chance they will win. :D
Well, apparently Mariano coughed it up once, he might do it again. But I don't know how much damage he inherited from Mr. Marte.

JB98
08-12-2008, 11:18 PM
Rivera hasn't blown hardly any saves all year. Figures that he'd cough one up against the Twins, with an assist from worthless Damaso Marte.

I don't care how "dominant" Marte was in the National League. He stinks.

ndgt10
08-12-2008, 11:19 PM
The Twins are a very solid team and will be very difficult to take this division from. I know they play a bunch of road games, but their schedule is cake compared to ours.

october23sp
08-12-2008, 11:21 PM
After awhile, like 8 years, I think it's time to consider that it's not always luck.

I don't know where to find the stats, but I think I heard the Twins are ranked #1 in comeback wins this year.

It still seems like luck to me with all these Twins fans in North Dakota I refuse to believe this team is good. This run of bad luck ends in 2010 when they will play out doors for 81 home games.

thomas35forever
08-12-2008, 11:21 PM
The Twins are a very solid team and will be very difficult to take this division from. I know they play a bunch of road games, but their schedule is cake compared to ours.
You're right. I give up. There's no way we're making up a half-game in 6 1/2 weeks. Let's just concede the division to them now and give them their shirts and hats that say "AL Central Division Champions." I mean seriously, how can we overtake them?

october23sp
08-12-2008, 11:22 PM
You're right. I give up. There's no way we're making up a half-game in 6 1/2 weeks. Let's just concede the division to them now and give them their shirts and hats that say "AL Central Division Champions." I mean seriously, how can we overtake them?


Its not even a half game as i type now we are tied.:tongue:

hi im skot
08-12-2008, 11:23 PM
Let's go Yankees, clap clap, clap clap clap.

hellview
08-12-2008, 11:24 PM
It still seems like luck to me with all these Twins fans in North Dakota I refuse to believe this team is good. This run of bad luck ends in 2010 when they will play out doors for 81 home games.

Cause they were garbage the entire 90's been suddenly the dome turned it around for them in 2002.

Lucky teams don't hit 3 runs shots against the greatest closer of all time...nothing wrong with tipping your cap sometimes.

D'Sphitz
08-12-2008, 11:24 PM
You're right. I give up. There's no way we're making up a half-game in 6 1/2 weeks. Let's just concede the division to them now and give them their shirts and hats that say "AL Central Division Champions." I mean seriously, how can we overtake them?

That's the spirit!!

Nobody's saying the season is over, just that it's time to stop blaming Twins success on luck and dome field advantage.

sox1970
08-12-2008, 11:24 PM
You're right. I give up. There's no way we're making up a half-game in 6 1/2 weeks. Let's just concede the division to them now and give them their shirts and hats that say "AL Central Division Champions." I mean seriously, how can we overtake them?

He wasn't saying the Sox are done. He's saying the Twins are a solid team (which they are), and their schedule is favorable to the Sox. What did he say that wasn't a fact?

hi im skot
08-12-2008, 11:26 PM
A-Rod facing Nathan. Get 'er done.

ndgt10
08-12-2008, 11:28 PM
You're right. I give up. There's no way we're making up a half-game in 6 1/2 weeks. Let's just concede the division to them now and give them their shirts and hats that say "AL Central Division Champions." I mean seriously, how can we overtake them?
geez...who lit the fuse on your tampon?

turners56
08-12-2008, 11:31 PM
A-rod fails again.

sox1970
08-12-2008, 11:32 PM
I hope this game goes 15 innings.

chisoxmike
08-12-2008, 11:36 PM
Nick ****ing Punto will probably hit a chopper over the head of an infielder and stretch it into a inside the park home run for a walk off.

thomas35forever
08-12-2008, 11:37 PM
Nick ****ing Punto will probably hit a chopper over the head of an infielder and stretch it into a inside the park home run for a walk off.
He already got a single courtesy of a "soft ground ball."

And that's where he'll stay. Going into extras.

sox1970
08-12-2008, 11:37 PM
extras...

Whitesoxfan23
08-12-2008, 11:38 PM
The Yankees are getting squeezed. This ump is terrible.

turners56
08-12-2008, 11:39 PM
He already got a single courtesy of a "soft ground ball."

And that's where he'll stay. Going into extras.

Another reason to hate the Twins and the Metrodome.

hi im skot
08-12-2008, 11:44 PM
Another reason to hate the Twins and the Metrodome.

Like I need another reason...
:D:

turners56
08-12-2008, 11:51 PM
I wonder if Rivera goes out there for the tenth.

sox1970
08-12-2008, 11:52 PM
I knew Delmon Young would swing at the first pitch. On to the 11th.

doublem23
08-12-2008, 11:55 PM
Is anyone else going to need to take a shower after this game for rooting so hard for the Yankees?

http://www.snoopy.com/comics/peanuts/meet_the_gang/images/meet_pig_pen_big.gif

turners56
08-12-2008, 11:55 PM
I knew Delmon Young would swing at the first pitch. On to the 11th.

If it wasn't for him, we'd be back in first again.

cheezheadsoxfan
08-12-2008, 11:56 PM
Is anyone else going to need to take a shower after this game for rooting so hard for the Yankees?

http://www.snoopy.com/comics/peanuts/meet_the_gang/images/meet_pig_pen_big.gif
When I said "Go Yankees" I was trying to figure out how it made me feel. You nailed it. LOL

Well, Nathan's out so there may be hope.

PeteWard
08-13-2008, 12:00 AM
Girardi used all of his position players by the 10th. :scratch:

cards press box
08-13-2008, 12:08 AM
Of course they would win the division with Bonds. As of right now, they stand a pretty darn good chance of winning outright anyway.

Bonds is 44 and hasn't played all year. I suspect that he could help a team but the superstar days are, in all likelihood, over.

By the way, the Yankees have looked pretty bad all night. Does anyone know if Mike Mussina has cleared waivers?

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:11 AM
Bonds is 44 and hasn't played all year. I suspect that he could help a team but the superstar days are, in all likelihood, over.

By the way, the Yankees have looked pretty bad all night. Does anyone know if Mike Mussina has cleared waivers?

You can dream, but we will most likely not get Mussina.

thomas35forever
08-13-2008, 12:14 AM
On to the 12th we go.

PeteWard
08-13-2008, 12:15 AM
To the 12th. I'm feeling better because I thought the Twins would have won this by now.

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:15 AM
To the 12th we go...

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:16 AM
To the 12th. I'm feeling better because I thought the Twins would have won this by now.

Don't speak too soon.

thomas35forever
08-13-2008, 12:18 AM
Hail A-Rod!

Marqhead
08-13-2008, 12:18 AM
Arod

PeteWard
08-13-2008, 12:18 AM
Yankees 7-6:smile:

illini81887
08-13-2008, 12:18 AM
Arod puts yanks back on top

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:19 AM
An A-bomb, for A-rod! Yankees lead.

anewman35
08-13-2008, 12:20 AM
Hopefully they can get more. There's no way I trust a one run lead.

mccoydp
08-13-2008, 12:20 AM
A-Fraud HR. Don't blow it, Yanks. Those Twinkies be pesky. :redneck

PeteWard
08-13-2008, 12:20 AM
Other Rodriguez with a double. Pour it on now.

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 12:20 AM
This ARod guy is pretty good.

illini81887
08-13-2008, 12:21 AM
Nady 2run HR!!

sox1970
08-13-2008, 12:21 AM
Lookin' good now!

Kogs35
08-13-2008, 12:21 AM
thanks xaiver nady

PeteWard
08-13-2008, 12:21 AM
Another HR 9-6 Yankees:D:

Marqhead
08-13-2008, 12:21 AM
nady provides a cushion!

thomas35forever
08-13-2008, 12:22 AM
Nady's homer should put this out of reach. Then again, you never know with the Twinkies in the Dome.

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:22 AM
We have a bit of a problem. Who's gonna close?

Gavin
08-13-2008, 12:23 AM
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/jerry-seinfeld-30-rock.jpg

That's a shame.

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 12:23 AM
And Demarso Marte is unavailbe to blow this:bandance:

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:23 AM
We have a bit of a problem. Who's gonna close?

NVM...Guerrier down right sucks.

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:25 AM
Cano singles. Keep the lin e moving.

october23sp
08-13-2008, 12:26 AM
Lets go Yankees!!

anewman35
08-13-2008, 12:26 AM
To the bottom of the inning. Hold this lead, dammit!

october23sp
08-13-2008, 12:26 AM
cano singles. Keep the lin e moving.
gidp.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-13-2008, 12:27 AM
Konerko gidp...hold 'em this time yanks!

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:27 AM
Betemit GIDPs...hold this lead...please?

doublem23
08-13-2008, 12:29 AM
This ARod guy is pretty good.

KW should try to trade for him. I wonder if they'd take Fields straight up. :cool:

WhiteSoxOnly
08-13-2008, 12:29 AM
1 out

october23sp
08-13-2008, 12:29 AM
IF the Yankee's win, have the Twins held onto a division lead for more then one night yet since the finally ended our long run?

doublem23
08-13-2008, 12:29 AM
Span flies out... 2 more bullets.

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:31 AM
Ramirez in to close. Top of the lineup due up. It won't be easy...

CHISOXFAN13
08-13-2008, 12:31 AM
IF the Yankee's win, have the Twins held onto a division lead for more then one night yet since the finally ended our long run?

No.

doublem23
08-13-2008, 12:31 AM
Punto K's! 1 more out for 1st place.

Sockinchisox
08-13-2008, 12:32 AM
:twinslose

Sox back in 1st!

october23sp
08-13-2008, 12:32 AM
:twinslose

UofCSoxFan
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
:twinslose

doublem23
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, your 1st-place Chicago White Sox.

:bandance:

gobears1987
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
The Twins stink. They are perpetual losers.

**** you Timberwolf.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
Ovah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thomas35forever
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
:twinslose

I'm sure Twins fans are upset that their team can't last more than one day in first place. I love it! Your first-place Chicago White Sox are back!:bandance:

Rockabilly
08-13-2008, 12:33 AM
Back in 1st... Lets stay there for now on

turners56
08-13-2008, 12:35 AM
Well, that was fun. Everything that needed to go right did go right today. Now, let's hope TCQ's forearm is alright.

Harry Potter
08-13-2008, 12:36 AM
Another day of killing half a bottle of Tums - well maybe only a handful today...

Hell yeah Yankees! (can't believe I just said that)

ChiSoxGirl
08-13-2008, 12:37 AM
Well, that was fun. Everything that needed to go right did go right today. Now, let's hope TCQ's forearm is alright.

In his post-game press conference tonight, Ozzie said he's giving TCQ tomorrow night off, too. He also said that both days off are nothing more than a precaution, and it was Ozzie's decision- not on the recommendation of Herm.

gobears1987
08-13-2008, 12:38 AM
I'll take this end result over a 6-3 win with Rivera doing his job. This hurts more for the Twins.

SoxSpeed22
08-13-2008, 12:54 AM
Something tells me this won't be the last time the Twins gain, then lose 1st place. Just a hunch.

TDog
08-13-2008, 01:00 AM
I'll take this end result over a 6-3 win with Rivera doing his job. This hurts more for the Twins.

You're right. The Twins lost in extras Sunday in Kansas City and Tuesday at the Metrodome against the Yankees. Losing hurts. Losing is bad enough. Expending additional energy to lose hurts more. Go ahead an lament that there is no way the Sox can win playing the way they're playing, but the Twins aren't playing well either.

And tonight there was the symmetry of the game getting away from Damaso Marte in the eighth before Matt Guerrier lost the game in the 12th. When the Sox picked up Marte on the eve of the 2002 season, I couldn't have imagined that he would win a World Series game for the White Sox three seasons before pitching poorly in a mid-August game where a Guerrier loss moved the Sox back into first.

Nellie_Fox
08-13-2008, 01:56 AM
Being someone who "came of age," baseball wise, in the fifties, it kills me to pull for the Yankees. But I was doing it tonight.

illini81887
08-13-2008, 01:18 PM
1-0 yanks

Marqhead
08-13-2008, 01:22 PM
1-0 yanks
I'm so damn bored at work, I'm going to sit here and follow this game almost pitch by pitch.

Sockinchisox
08-13-2008, 01:24 PM
A ball just went through Giambi's glove...

WSox597
08-13-2008, 01:25 PM
Being someone who "came of age," baseball wise, in the fifties, it kills me to pull for the Yankees. But I was doing it tonight.

I have to agree. It kills me to root for anything NY.

But I'm a Yankee fan while they're playing the Twins.

PorkChopExpress
08-13-2008, 02:23 PM
I just checked gameday and saw Delmon Young was up again, and thought, I hope he doesn't hit a three run homer like yesterday, and bam - three run homer. Mr. Young is starting to come around. That's not good.