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SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 10:48 PM
20 BBs IN 120+ innings so far in the minors is very nice to see.
Any pitcher can suceed if they work ahead in the count. That is the most important aspect of pitching.

Daver
07-20-2008, 10:49 PM
Any pitcher can suceed if they work ahead in the count. That is the most important aspect of pitching.

You're kidding right?

SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 10:53 PM
You're kidding right?
What do you disagree with?

Daver
07-20-2008, 10:56 PM
What do you disagree with?

Your entire statement.

SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 10:58 PM
Your entire statement.
Enlighten me oh mighty Daver, what do you think is the most important thing to succeed an a pitcher in the MLB?

Daver
07-20-2008, 10:59 PM
Enlighten me oh mighty Daver, what do you think is the most important thing to succeed an a pitcher in the MLB?

Have you ever pitched? Or caught a game?

JorgeFabregas
07-20-2008, 11:06 PM
I think Daver's point may be that getting ahead of the account doesn't do much if you have no stuff (batting practice).

SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 11:09 PM
Have you ever pitched? Or caught a game?
I am currently the best pitcher in my high school. You have yet to respond to what is most important to do when pitching.

Daver
07-20-2008, 11:13 PM
I am currently the best pitcher in my high school. You have yet to respond to what is most important to do when pitching.

If you have not learned that confidence is your best tool then I doubt you are the best pitcher on your team.

SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 11:24 PM
If you have not learned that confidence is your best tool then I doubt you are the best pitcher on your team.
You can doubt me all you want but confidence has always come natural to me and when I have struggled it is when I am not throwing strikes or trying to pin point corners much like Javy. Throwing strikes and getting ahead gives you confidence when the batter is down 0-2 right after getting in the box.

Daver
07-20-2008, 11:29 PM
You can doubt me all you want but confidence has always come natural to me and when I have struggled it is when I am not throwing strikes or trying to pin point corners much like Javy. Throwing strikes and getting ahead gives you confidence when the batter is down 0-2 right after getting in the box.


If you need the count to give you confidence you are destined to fail.

SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 11:31 PM
If you need the count to give you confidence you are destined to fail.
It gives a pitcher more confidence and puts the hitter in a defensive mode.

Daver
07-20-2008, 11:34 PM
It gives a pitcher more confidence and puts the hitter in a defensive mode.

Keep thinking that, and continue to fail.

Your coach and your catcher sucks.

SoxNation05
07-20-2008, 11:44 PM
Keep thinking that, and continue to fail.

Your coach and your catcher sucks.
Wow that is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. I will not continue to fail because I haven't been failing at all with my 7-1 record with a 2.13 ERA while averaging over 9 strikeouts per 9 innings. You have turned an arguement of the demeanors and best way to approach a hitter while pitching into an ignorant post saying my coach and catcher suck, while you have never witnessed anything either them or I have accomplished.

SoxSpeed22
07-20-2008, 11:49 PM
Confidence has nothing to do with getting ahead in the count.
It's about what you do after you hang a two-strike pitch that gets smacked over the fence, it's about what you do with the bases-loaded and no one out, what happens after you walk a guy with 2 outs, after one of your players makes a costly error, etc.
Just like Rocky said, 'It ain't about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take, and keep moving forward."

gogosox16
07-21-2008, 12:23 AM
Sox Nation I really want to know what high School you go to....

Domeshot17
07-21-2008, 01:18 AM
Wow that is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. I will not continue to fail because I haven't been failing at all with my 7-1 record with a 2.13 ERA while averaging over 9 strikeouts per 9 innings. You have turned an arguement of the demeanors and best way to approach a hitter while pitching into an ignorant post saying my coach and catcher suck, while you have never witnessed anything either them or I have accomplished.

Daver isn't wrong. I am not doubting you have talent, but take this from a former pitcher/position player who played in college before some injuries took there toll. (1) Stats mean nothing in high school. College coaches will be the first to tell you that. You can be in an bad conference and rack up stats and most colleges won't touch you. I think I get what you are both saying, and while it is better to pitch ahead, you are going to inevitably face some good teams with great players where you have to have the confidence to battle through 2-1, 3-1, 3-2 counts. The idea that just throwing strikes is wrong, because they can all be cookies down the middle that get slammed.

Confidence in your stuff, to throw it in ANY count, is above and beyond the biggest difference maker. I had a big 12-6 curve, and I didn't become half the pitcher I was until I learned to be willing to throw it down in counts, same with my sinker. Again, you can strike out high school kids, its not hard, but its the ability to get ground balls and keep guys off balance that makes it in the next level. After that its about being smart enough to pitch along with your catcher, moving in and out, changing speeds and keeping hitters off balance/guessing.

cws05champ
07-21-2008, 08:26 AM
Wow that is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. I will not continue to fail because I haven't been failing at all with my 7-1 record with a 2.13 ERA while averaging over 9 strikeouts per 9 innings. You have turned an arguement of the demeanors and best way to approach a hitter while pitching into an ignorant post saying my coach and catcher suck, while you have never witnessed anything either them or I have accomplished.
:bitchslap:

munchman33
07-21-2008, 08:43 AM
Wow that is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. I will not continue to fail because I haven't been failing at all with my 7-1 record with a 2.13 ERA while averaging over 9 strikeouts per 9 innings. You have turned an arguement of the demeanors and best way to approach a hitter while pitching into an ignorant post saying my coach and catcher suck, while you have never witnessed anything either them or I have accomplished.

You've obviously got a lot to learn still.

Listen to Daver instead of attacking him. There's no need to be so defensive. He's trying to give you advice.

PeoriaSoxFan
07-21-2008, 11:06 AM
:threadsucks

Can we take the pitching arguement somewhere else? The kid is a good pitcher, getting ahead in the count is obviously extremely important, as is self confidence. There, it is solved. I believe the subject was Clayton Richard and the Sox pitching staff.

I am little worried about Masset possibly going Tuesday, followed by a rookie on Wed. vs that Texas lineup. We suddenly seem to have a lot of pitching woes and tendinitis.

guillen4life13
07-21-2008, 11:19 AM
You've obviously got a lot to learn still.

Listen to Daver instead of attacking him. There's no need to be so defensive. He's trying to give you advice.

I think what SoxNation is annoyed at (and I occasionally find it irritating but not overwhelmingly so) is that Daver has these one liners disputing what the he is saying, but won't say anything more. Quite cryptic, and even if his point may be obvious to some people, it isn't to all. I don't think anyone on this board doubts the baseball intelligence of guys like Daver, onda, etc (there are a few on WSI). I get a lot out of the observations they make.

It took Domeshot17 to explain what he thinks Daver means in a manner that's actually constructive. Daver is putting down the kid without really giving any solid reasoning, which is I think something that SoxNation was legitimately hoping to get. And being put down tends to tick anybody off if they don't know why it's happening.

No offense directed at anyone. I'm just saying it how I see it and I like it cos I get to learn from it.

doublem23
07-21-2008, 11:55 AM
You may continue...

:rolleyes:

Bill Naharodny
07-21-2008, 12:10 PM
I think what SoxNation is annoyed at (and I occasionally find it irritating but not overwhelmingly so) is that Daver has these one liners disputing what the he is saying, but won't say anything more. Quite cryptic, and even if his point may be obvious to some people, it isn't to all. I don't think anyone on this board doubts the baseball intelligence of guys like Daver, onda, etc (there are a few on WSI). I get a lot out of the observations they make.

It took Domeshot17 to explain what he thinks Daver means in a manner that's actually constructive. Daver is putting down the kid without really giving any solid reasoning, which is I think something that SoxNation was legitimately hoping to get. And being put down tends to tick anybody off if they don't know why it's happening.

No offense directed at anyone. I'm just saying it how I see it and I like it cos I get to learn from it.

Hey, if you don't like hearing pronouncements from the oracle that is Daver, you should move along. I mean, personally, I love it when a guy just gives a quick and condescending one-line answer and expects us to be enlightened and astounded by its brilliance.

kittle42
07-21-2008, 12:13 PM
I mean, personally, I love it when a guy just gives a quick and condescending one-line answer and expects us to be enlightened and astounded by its brilliance.

I think the thing is he doesn't care whether anyone is enlightened or astounded.

turners56
07-21-2008, 01:38 PM
Any pitcher can suceed if they work ahead in the count. That is the most important aspect of pitching.

I think you should add a little bit more to that or correct your wording. Maybe that's why Daver is giving you his one liners...

There's no doubt that it is vital to throw strikes early in the count, but look what happened to John Danks yesterday...stuff matters.

ondafarm
07-21-2008, 02:42 PM
Throwing strikes is obviously important for any pitcher. Being able to throw something that keeps batters from squaring up your pitches is equally important. I played with some guys who threw hard, but couldn't throw strikes, not one guy like that made it to the majors. Oddly, knowing when not to throw a strike, and being able to execute that was just as important as throwing a strike.

WhiteSox5187
07-21-2008, 02:59 PM
The only thing I know about pitching is that I can't hit it. However, I think while getting ahead in the count is very important, you can't just throw straight fastballs for strikes and expect to do well. But if you have some pitches that can change speeds and have a bit of movement, I think you can do well at any level. You don't need to have the nasty knee buckling curve to be in the majors, you just have to change a guy's eye level and bat speed. If hitting is timing then pitching is disrupting timing.

ondafarm
07-21-2008, 03:29 PM
The only thing I know about pitching is that I can't hit it. However, I think while getting ahead in the count is very important, you can't just throw straight fastballs for strikes and expect to do well. But if you have some pitches that can change speeds and have a bit of movement, I think you can do well at any level. You don't need to have the nasty knee buckling curve to be in the majors, you just have to change a guy's eye level and bat speed. If hitting is timing then pitching is disrupting timing.

Is that a quote from Greg Maddux?

WhiteSox5187
07-21-2008, 03:50 PM
Is that a quote from Greg Maddux?
No, it's from Bob Gibson. At one point McCarver went out to talk to him and Gibson said "Get back behind the plate! The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it!" The rest of the stuff is just stuff I believe...and the whole "Hitting is timing pitching is disrupting timing" is from MVP 2005 :redneck

UofCSoxFan
07-21-2008, 03:57 PM
The only thing I know about pitching is that I can't hit it. However, I think while getting ahead in the count is very important, you can't just throw straight fastballs for strikes and expect to do well. But if you have some pitches that can change speeds and have a bit of movement, I think you can do well at any level. You don't need to have the nasty knee buckling curve to be in the majors, you just have to change a guy's eye level and bat speed. If hitting is timing then pitching is disrupting timing.

Basically to echo your statement

The 3 most important things for pitching in order are as follows, IMO.
1. Location (Being able to throw the ball where you want it when you want it. This doesn't always mean throwing strikes but throwing the ball in places that are difficult to hit hard and be able to change the hitter's eyeline. Getting ahead early, means you can be pickier later, but if you get ahead early and throw one right down the middle (Danks did yesterday) you will get hit very hard. Likewise, if you are facing a team that is aggressive early, it makes sense on occasion to throw one out of the zone to balance this aggression. Grienke would have been well served to have done this on Friday).
2. Movement (Most major league hitters can hit a straight pitch no matter how hard it is thrown. You need movement. The later, the better).
3. Speed (the harder you throw, the more margin for error you have if you miss location or have little movement. However, without the first two, success will be shortlived relying just on speed. I would argue that speed differentials are far more important than absolute speed as well).

Confidence is important for sure. Withouth confidence, you won't be able to hit your locations as consistently and you may overthrow, hurting movement. You also won't be able to change speed effectivley if you don't trust that you can throw any pitch for a strike when you want. However, to state as Gospel that it is the most important thing to pitch is a bit short sighted. It may seperate good pitchers from bad, but you need the fundamental foundations there before it means anything.

Getting ahead in the count is also very important. Many hitters often go on the defensive with two strikes and you can actually hang a curve here and there or mislocate a fastball and it may only be hit as a single or even an out with two strikes whereas it may be hit over the ence with less than 2 strikes. Of course some hitters don't shorten their swing at all while down in the count so that point is moot. But like has been said, getting ahead is only important if you continue to make pitcher's pitches. If you throw one right down the middle, or throw pitches so far out of the zone that the hitter won't be tempted to swing, then it means very little as you let the batter into the count.

WhiteSox5187
07-21-2008, 05:20 PM
Basically to echo your statement

The 3 most important things for pitching in order are as follows, IMO.
1. Location (Being able to throw the ball where you want it when you want it. This doesn't always mean throwing strikes but throwing the ball in places that are difficult to hit hard and be able to change the hitter's eyeline. Getting ahead early, means you can be pickier later, but if you get ahead early and throw one right down the middle (Danks did yesterday) you will get hit very hard. Likewise, if you are facing a team that is aggressive early, it makes sense on occasion to throw one out of the zone to balance this aggression. Grienke would have been well served to have done this on Friday).
2. Movement (Most major league hitters can hit a straight pitch no matter how hard it is thrown. You need movement. The later, the better).
3. Speed (the harder you throw, the more margin for error you have if you miss location or have little movement. However, without the first two, success will be shortlived relying just on speed. I would argue that speed differentials are far more important than absolute speed as well).

Confidence is important for sure. Withouth confidence, you won't be able to hit your locations as consistently and you may overthrow, hurting movement. You also won't be able to change speed effectivley if you don't trust that you can throw any pitch for a strike when you want. However, to state as Gospel that it is the most important thing to pitch is a bit short sighted. It may seperate good pitchers from bad, but you need the fundamental foundations there before it means anything.

Getting ahead in the count is also very important. Many hitters often go on the defensive with two strikes and you can actually hang a curve here and there or mislocate a fastball and it may only be hit as a single or even an out with two strikes whereas it may be hit over the ence with less than 2 strikes. Of course some hitters don't shorten their swing at all while down in the count so that point is moot. But like has been said, getting ahead is only important if you continue to make pitcher's pitches. If you throw one right down the middle, or throw pitches so far out of the zone that the hitter won't be tempted to swing, then it means very little as you let the batter into the count.
Again, I know nothing about pitching, but I think the ability to change speed is much more important than actually having speed. Oh sure if you throw 95 you can afford to leave a couple over the middle of the plate, but if you consistenly hit your spots (like a Greg Maddux) you can afford to top out in the mid to high 80s if you can then throw another pitch in the low 70s (or in the case of Shingo, the high 60s). Shingo never threw above 85 and got guys out, he started to struggle when he couldn't locate his 60 mph change and then had to throw an 80 something fastball in the zone. Livan Hernadez shut down the Rangers (and us awhile ago) the other day and never threw a pitch about 85. Obviously to do that you have to be REAL good and be able to throw the ball thru a life saver, but if you have the movement and location down you don't have to throw ninety.

white sox bill
07-21-2008, 05:25 PM
I think what SoxNation is annoyed at (and I occasionally find it irritating but not overwhelmingly so) is that Daver has these one liners disputing what the he is saying, but won't say anything more. Quite cryptic, and even if his point may be obvious to some people, it isn't to all. I don't think anyone on this board doubts the baseball intelligence of guys like Daver, onda, etc (there are a few on WSI). I get a lot out of the observations they make.

It took Domeshot17 to explain what he thinks Daver means in a manner that's actually constructive. Daver is putting down the kid without really giving any solid reasoning, which is I think something that SoxNation was legitimately hoping to get. And being put down tends to tick anybody off if they don't know why it's happening.

No offense directed at anyone. I'm just saying it how I see it and I like it cos I get to learn from it.

I don't think Daver means to condescend with one liners, hell I usually understand his humour perfectly. Or maybe I should say meaning perfectly. The problem with the typed word is we cannot verbalize what we mean, only thru these silly icons and symbols:bandance::redface::rolleyes:. Because this conversation isn't real we must read between the lines for correct connotation. Like any psychology major will tell you, shrinks don't tell you what to do however they say suggestive things hoping you will tell yourself what to do.

Daver is simply trying to help Sox Nation become a better pitcher. (so he can get rich and famous and will each one of us $100,000!)

TheVulture
07-23-2008, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Daver http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1969761#post1969761)
Keep thinking that, and continue to fail.

Your coach and your catcher sucks
Wow that is the most ignorant statement I have ever heard... You have turned an arguement of the demeanors and best way to approach a hitter while pitching into an ignorant post saying my coach and catcher suck, while you have never witnessed anything either them or I have accomplished.http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/pwned-2.gif

Adele_H
07-23-2008, 01:09 AM
If you have not learned that confidence is your best tool then I doubt you are the best pitcher on your team.



You need confidence to succeed in almost anything [at a high enough level]; that's a given.

I'd rather have the arm of Steve Dalkowski, the brain of Greg Maddux, hand-eye coordination of Roger Federer, natural poise of Mariano Rivera, and the durability of Nolan Ryan.

Somehow I think confidence will follow... :rolleyes:



..

SoxNation05
07-23-2008, 12:28 PM
You need confidence to succeed in almost anything [at a high enough level]; that's a given.

I'd rather have the arm of Steve Dalkowski, the brain of Greg Maddux, hand-eye coordination of Roger Federer, natural poise of Mariano Rivera, and the durability of Nolan Ryan.

Somehow I think confidence will follow... :rolleyes:



..

Exactly!

Adele_H
07-23-2008, 08:56 PM
Exactly!

Ah, what the hell do I know. :wink:

SoxNation05
07-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Daver http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1969761#post1969761)
Keep thinking that, and continue to fail.

Your coach and your catcher sucks
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/pwned-2.gif

Daver stopped posting after that post.

Adele_H
07-24-2008, 12:37 AM
Daver stopped posting after that post.


Slightly OT:

What's "PWNED"? :scratch:

And what of the weeping lion and the mouse playing a tiny violin? Is that some kind of metaphor? Early preview sketch of the villains from the next Batman movie?

whitesox901
07-24-2008, 12:20 PM
What's "PWNED"? :scratch:



Its Owned, but cooler, its actually supposed to be pwnd if im correct, I dont think there should be an "E"

pythons007
07-25-2008, 11:11 AM
Well its obvious that we have pitching coaches all over WSI. I think we need to get rid of Coop and sign one of you!

FielderJones
07-25-2008, 11:34 AM
Slightly OT:

What's "PWNED"? :scratch:

Its Owned, but cooler, its actually supposed to be pwnd if im correct, I dont think there should be an "E"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn

turners56
07-25-2008, 12:37 PM
Its Owned, but used on the internet by people who either A) can't type or B) are bad at spelling, its actually supposed to be pwnd if im correct, I dont think there should be an "E"

Fixed it for you, but it can be either pwned or pwnd. Either way. The second way just shows even less illiteracy. Meaning you are instantly cooler.