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ArkanSox
07-20-2008, 08:56 AM
The upcoming tribute to Harold Baines makes me recall something that I did to him that I don't remember doing to any other White Sox player.

I gave him a nickname: "Bye Bye Baby" Baines.

I can almost hear you poetry hating, non-alliteration-type fans out there saying "That sucks" or "Wow, that's really b-b-b-bad." For me, it just seemed to fit, and it naturally rolled off the tongue.

Bye Bye was always ready and able to give the baseball a ride bye bye, especially in those clutch situations. I can still remember urging him on with "C'mon, Bye Bye" and then having my prayer answered. Either alone, or with my friends joining in, I'd be yelling "Bye Bye Baby" in celebration as the baseball sailed majestically over the outfield fence.
Yeah, there was usually some :gulp:involved.

Anyways, congrats to you, "Bye Bye Baby" Baines. You are really a stand-up guy, and thanks for all of the wonderful memories.

sincerely,
Arkansox

popilius
07-20-2008, 10:45 AM
Does anyone know what time the Baines ceremony is before the game today (Sunday)? I mean, is it at 11 or noon, or what? Are fans invited? Is it sectioned off? Can we hear his speech? Couldn't find the info on the WhiteSox.com article. Thanks!

:gulp:

DumpJerry
07-20-2008, 10:59 AM
Does anyone know what time the Baines ceremony is before the game today (Sunday)? I mean, is it at 11 or noon, or what? Are fans invited? Is it sectioned off? Can we hear his speech? Couldn't find the info on the WhiteSox.com article. Thanks!

:gulp:

The email I got from my rep:

WHAT: A life-sized sculpture of franchise legend Harold Baines will be unveiled by the Chicago White Sox prior to the game vs. Kansas City this Sunday afternoon at U.S. Cellular Field. Former White Sox greats Carlton Fisk, Ron Kittle and Robin Ventura will be in attendance, along with former White Sox general manager, who drafted Baines in 1977, Roland Hemond.

WHEN: Sunday, July 20
12:20 p.m. - Ceremony begins
1:00 p.m. - Ceremonial first pitch by Harold Baines

WHERE: U.S. Cellular Field
Outfield concourse (right-center field)

BIO: Harold Baines, in his fifth season on the White Sox coaching staff, was drafted by the Sox in 1977 and made his major league debut in 1980. Over his next 22 seasons in major league baseball, Baines clubbed 384 home runs and drove in 1,628 runs - with 221 of the home runs and 981 of the RBI coming as a member of the White Sox. The organization retired uniform No. 3 in 1989. Still on the franchise leader board in a number of offensive categories, Baines ranks third in home runs, third in RBI, third in extra-base hits (585), fourth in doubles (320) and fifth in hits (1,773) in franchise history.
At the other ceremonies, they broadcast it on the Center Field scoreboard.

Frontman
07-20-2008, 11:04 AM
Truly deserving. A great guy, a silent player in a time when sport "celebrity" began to take on a life of bombastic and over the top showmanship.

Congrats, Harold.

Vernam
07-20-2008, 11:09 AM
My wife and daughter are going to the game today. I reminded her the Baines ceremony would be on the concourse, and she should go to see if he says a few words. She says, "Who? Harold or the statue?" :D:

Vernam

popilius
07-20-2008, 11:09 AM
The email I got from my rep:


At the other ceremonies, they broadcast it on the Center Field scoreboard.

Thank you very much! I appreciate it. I'll be there with my Baines jersey on.

:gulp:

BainesHOF
07-20-2008, 11:24 AM
Baines is the best clutch hitter I've seen on the Sox. I know Hawk ranks him in his top three clutch hitters he's seen on any team.

To those who are two young to have seen him early in his career, Baines quickly developed into a very good outfielder before knee surgeries made him a DH. He had a great, accurate arm. Runners rarely ran on him, yet he was still able to throw out more than his share of them because he often nailed them on the rare occasion when they tested him. Baines even played some center field early in his career.

When you look at his career numbers and that he was so clutch, I believe Baines belongs in the Hall of Fame. He was a better hitter than many position players already in the Hall, and it wasn't like he was a typical bad-fielding DH. He was a very good fielder whose knees forced him into the DH role.

white sox bill
07-20-2008, 11:32 AM
Baines is the best clutch hitter I've seen on the Sox. I know Hawk ranks him in his top three clutch hitters he's seen on any team.

To those who are two young to have seen him early in his career, Baines quickly developed into a very good outfielder before knee surgeries made him a DH. He had a great, accurate arm. Runners rarely ran on him, yet he was still able to throw out more than his share of them because he often nailed them on the rare occasion when they tested him. Baines even played some center field early in his career.

When you look at his career numbers and that he was so clutch, I believe Baines belongs in the Hall of Fame. He was a better hitter than many position players already in the Hall, and it wasn't like he was a typical bad-fielding DH. He was a very good fielder whose knees forced him into the DH role.

Funny you should mention HOF--a while back, one of my cub fans remarked that he'd be peeoo'd if Baines made the Hall and Santo didn't. I reminded him that Harold better stats (although he played more yrs) and led his team to division titles. That shut him up

ArkanSox
07-20-2008, 01:29 PM
Baines is the best clutch hitter I've seen on the Sox. I know Hawk ranks him in his top three clutch hitters he's seen on any team.

To those who are two young to have seen him early in his career, Baines quickly developed into a very good outfielder before knee surgeries made him a DH. He had a great, accurate arm. Runners rarely ran on him, yet he was still able to throw out more than his share of them because he often nailed them on the rare occasion when they tested him. Baines even played some center field early in his career.

When you look at his career numbers and that he was so clutch, I believe Baines belongs in the Hall of Fame. He was a better hitter than many position players already in the Hall, and it wasn't like he was a typical bad-fielding DH. He was a very good fielder whose knees forced him into the DH role.

Yeah, he belongs in the Hall. Very clutch, and you're right about his great arm when he played in the outfield. A great guy and truly deserving.

fquaye149
07-20-2008, 02:05 PM
I gave him a nickname: "Bye Bye Baby" Baines.

I can almost hear you poetry hating, non-alliteration-type fans out there saying "That sucks" or "Wow, that's really b-b-b-bad." For me, it just seemed to fit, and it naturally rolled off the tongue.


the only poetry four b's in rapid spondaic succession qualifies as is "bad poetry"

but...you know...if it makes you happy! just don't hide behind the mask of prosody

fquaye149
07-20-2008, 02:29 PM
Funny you should mention HOF--a while back, one of my cub fans remarked that he'd be peeoo'd if Baines made the Hall and Santo didn't. I reminded him that Harold better stats (although he played more yrs) and lead his team to division titles. That shut him up


You do realize that Santo averaged more HR and more RBI per season than Baines even though Santo played a skill position and Baines was primarily a DH?

He also has similar OBP and SLG #'s to Baines even though, once again, Santo played a skill position and Baines was primarily a DH.

Baines had 42 more career HR than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons. He had 300 more career RBI than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons. He scored 161 more career R than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons.

I love Baines and think he should get HOF consideration, but it's pretty clear that Santo is more deserving of enshrinement than Baines.

white sox bill
07-20-2008, 03:01 PM
You do realize that Santo averaged more HR and more RBI per season than Baines even though Santo played a skill position and Baines was primarily a DH?

He also has similar OBP and SLG #'s to Baines even though, once again, Santo played a skill position and Baines was primarily a DH.

Baines had 42 more career HR than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons. He had 300 more career RBI than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons. He scored 161 more career R than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons.

I love Baines and think he should get HOF consideration, but it's pretty clear that Santo is more deserving of enshrinement than Baines.

Oh I know Ronnie had better stats pro rated. I just pointed out to him that Harold had more RBI's, HR's, better Avg, etc. I would spin the 7 more yrs as Harold had more longevity than Santo. I don't discriminate with the DH thing, but see your point. Thank God Ronnie didn't win any division titlles...I used to really dislike Santo but have let up recently as he visited a freinds son in the hospital recently (his boy is 7 and has juvinile diabetes). I see him in a different light now.

Not to hijack, but maybe Ron's condenscending personality left a bitter taste in sportwriters mouth, therefore nixing his enshrinment.

Madvora
07-20-2008, 03:28 PM
Baines last year on the Sox left such a bad memory in my mind. He was absolutely terrible that year. That was really hard to watch.

fquaye149
07-20-2008, 04:39 PM
Oh I know Ronnie had better stats pro rated. I just pointed out to him that Harold had more RBI's, HR's, better Avg, etc. I would spin the 7 more yrs as Harold had more longevity than Santo. I don't discriminate with the DH thing, but see your point. Thank God Ronnie didn't win any division titlles...I used to really dislike Santo but have let up recently as he visited a freinds son in the hospital recently (his boy is 7 and has juvinile diabetes). I see him in a different light now.

Longevity is fine and dandy, but not when you have a mere 40 more HR over 7 years, a mere 300 more RBI over 7 years, and only a marginally better batting average.

That means in the extra "longevity" Baines had, he averaged less than 6 HR and 45 RBI per "extra" year.

If he had ended up with something like 100 more HR and 600 more RBI...then we can start talking about longevity, but in this case, he had 22 years to put up stats that aren't even that much better than what Santo did in 15.

In terms of winning division titles, sure. But that 1983 team had a Cy Young winner who was not Harold Baines and an AL ROTY who was not Harold Baines. So, you know, it's kind of hard to give Baines too too much credit for that. If Santo had had a Cy Young winner and MVP on his 1969 Cubs, he might have had a better chance of beating out the Mets.


Not to hijack, but maybe Ron's condenscending personality left a bitter taste in sportwriters mouth, therefore nixing his enshrinment.


I agree. Harold Baines is a much better human being than Santo, imo. And hell, I would be happy to see Harold in the HOF and would, frankly, will be a little annoyed by the media fanfare when/if Santo actually makes it.

However, it's silly to say that Baines's numbers show anything but that Santo was superior.

Clutchness would be the way I'd go if I were arguing Baines and Santo.

Frontman
07-20-2008, 04:56 PM
At least there was one bright spot for today.

Note to self: Next time I get excited about 'throwback' uniforms, please remind yourself of the Sox record while wearing alternate/throwback/gimmick uniforms!!!!!

Chrisaway
07-20-2008, 05:03 PM
Harold you were my first hero. This day is way overdue in my mind. Congrats!!!

BainesHOF
07-20-2008, 05:26 PM
There's no doubt Santo was a good player, but Baines was better. You can play games and pro-rate Santo's stats all you want, but the bottom line is Baines' numbers are better. And since when is longevity a bad thing? It's a tribute to Baines that he kept himself in great shape and was able to produce for so long through his various knee surgeries. Imagine what Baines' numbers would have been if he wasn't slowed by his knees.

Baines was also a great teammate. Those who played with him can't say enough about the guy. He didn't promote himself or court the media. He simply played the game to win and was a credit to his profession. Meanwhile, Santo could be an ass. Just ask Don Young. What was with the embarrassing clicking of the heels anyway? Dick Allen wanted to deck Santo when he came to the Sox because Santo was such a jerk to the young players on the team.

Jenkins, Banks and Williams already made the Hall of Fame. That's enough from a team that never won anything.

Frontman
07-20-2008, 05:27 PM
Even if Harold never makes it to the hall, that statue will last forever. Our kids kids will hear from us how great of a player and a guy Harold Baines is/was!

fquaye149
07-20-2008, 06:29 PM
There's no doubt Santo was a good player, but Baines was better. You can play games and pro-rate Santo's stats all you want, but the bottom line is Baines' numbers are better. And since when is longevity a bad thing? It's a tribute to Baines that he kept himself in great shape and was able to produce for so long through his various knee surgeries. Imagine what Baines' numbers would have been if he wasn't slowed by his knees.

What does the bolded part even mean?

The bottom line is Baines' numbers are BARELY better.

BARELY. His OBP and SLG are the exact same as Santo. He has 40 more HR and 300 more RBI. His BA is 10 points higher.

EVEN IF we ignore the fact that Baines had 7 more years to pile up a whopping 40 more HR and 300 more RBI, SANTO WOULD STILL BE BETTER BECAUSE HE ****ING PLAYED WELL ABOVE-AVERAGE 3B.

There's no "games" or "pro-rating" (:rolleyes: ) involved.

Baines's aggregate numbers are only slightly higher despite having 7 more years to accumulate them, AND he contributed very little on defense while Santo contributed a great deal.

If you want to talk in the "all-time" greats category, there's no doubt in anyone's mind that Santo is among the 10 best 3B ever to play the game.

What possible category would Baines fall in the top 10 of, besides possibly "White Sox DH"?


Baines was also a great teammate. Those who played with him can't say enough about the guy. He didn't promote himself or court the media. He simply played the game to win and was a credit to his profession. Meanwhile, Santo could be an ass. Just ask Don Young. What was with the embarrassing clicking of the heels anyway?

Ok. I agree. I like Baines a lot more than Santo. But last I checked, "being a good teammate" was pretty far down the list on HOF qualifications.


Jenkins, Banks and Williams already made the Hall of Fame. That's enough from a team that never won anything.

Ridiculously bad argument against Santo. If Jenkins, Santo and Banks were in the HOF instead of Williams, would you argue against Williams's enshrinement on the grounds "he never won anything"? No chance.

Good grief. I like Baines and hope he's in the HOF someday, but just because you're a Sox fan and you prefer Baines to Santo as a person (which you should) doesn't mean you need to go making absurd, asinine, ridiculous statements about either man's HOF credentials.

Can't you honor the man without making up ridiculously inaccurate arguments in an attempt to smear a guy who has almost nothing to do with Harold Baines? Good grief!

It's ridiculous you actually believe this **** you're spewing.

cburns
07-20-2008, 07:26 PM
The bottom line is Baines' numbers are BARELY better.

BARELY. His OBP and SLG are the exact same as Santo. He has 40 more HR and 300 more RBI. His BA is 10 points higher.

Baines's aggregate numbers are only slightly higher despite having 7 more years to accumulate them.

To further your viewpoint, if Santo and Baines played the same amount of games, who's numbers would be better? What I mean is, if Santo played 22 years, he would most likely have better accumulative numbers than Harold. However I think both do not belong in the Hall. Good players, but not all time greats.

fquaye149
07-20-2008, 07:54 PM
To further your viewpoint, if Santo and Baines played the same amount of games, who's numbers would be better? What I mean is, if Santo played 22 years, he would most likely have better accumulative numbers than Harold. However I think both do not belong in the Hall. Good players, but not all time greats.

Agreed--but even if you WERE to ignore years played, Santo has a better resume

I'll take 820 OPS, 342 HR, and 1300 RBI from a gold glove 3B over an 820 OPS, 384 HR and 1600 RBI from a poor defensive OF/DH any day of the week, EVEN IF THEY HAD BOTH PLAYED IN THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF SEASONS.

But they didn't.

Harold Baines is a great guy, excellent player, probably not (unfortunately) a HOFer.

Santo is a ********er, ********, douchebag *******, excellent player, PERHAPS a HOFer.

That's all there is too it.

Steelrod
07-20-2008, 07:55 PM
Jim Palmer on Costas's HBO show said that Harold should be in the HOF. Good enough for me!

JB98
07-20-2008, 08:26 PM
Harold was in his prime with the Sox when I was a kid. He was definitely a favorite for both my sister and I when we were growing up.

Certainly one of the best players we've ever had on the Sox. Congrats to him. :gulp:

Nellie_Fox
07-21-2008, 01:06 AM
You do realize that Santo averaged more HR and more RBI per season than Baines even though Santo played a skill position and Baines was primarily a DH?

He also has similar OBP and SLG #'s to Baines even though, once again, Santo played a skill position and Baines was primarily a DH.

Baines had 42 more career HR than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons. He had 300 more career RBI than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons. He scored 161 more career R than Santo...but he played 7 more seasons.

I love Baines and think he should get HOF consideration, but it's pretty clear that Santo is more deserving of enshrinement than Baines.
:hawk "Don't tell me what he hit, tell me when he hit it."

Baines was always among the league leaders in game-winning RBI. Santo was anti-clutch. I used to make money betting that he'd strike out in pressure situations.

WSox597
07-21-2008, 06:15 AM
:hawk "Don't tell me what he hit, tell me when he hit it."

Baines was always among the league leaders in game-winning RBI. Santo was anti-clutch. I used to make money betting that he'd strike out in pressure situations.

Absolutely, the Anti-Clutch. And he was a hot dog at 3B, diving when it was uncalled for.

Santo had the rep, even among Cub fans back then, of hitting a 3 run homer when the Cubs were winning 8-0.

And then hitting into a game ending DP with the bases loaded when they were down by one. Mr. Clutch, indeed.

Aside from his nasty personality, he wouldn't have my vote if I had one. To be fair, as much as I loved Harold as a player, he probably wouldn't either. Although he'd get it before Santo would.

BainesHOF
07-21-2008, 09:31 AM
What does the bolded part even mean?

The bottom line is Baines' numbers are BARELY better.

BARELY. His OBP and SLG are the exact same as Santo. He has 40 more HR and 300 more RBI. His BA is 10 points higher.

EVEN IF we ignore the fact that Baines had 7 more years to pile up a whopping 40 more HR and 300 more RBI, SANTO WOULD STILL BE BETTER BECAUSE HE ****ING PLAYED WELL ABOVE-AVERAGE 3B.

There's no "games" or "pro-rating" (:rolleyes: ) involved.

Baines's aggregate numbers are only slightly higher despite having 7 more years to accumulate them, AND he contributed very little on defense while Santo contributed a great deal.

If you want to talk in the "all-time" greats category, there's no doubt in anyone's mind that Santo is among the 10 best 3B ever to play the game.

What possible category would Baines fall in the top 10 of, besides possibly "White Sox DH"?



Ok. I agree. I like Baines a lot more than Santo. But last I checked, "being a good teammate" was pretty far down the list on HOF qualifications.



Ridiculously bad argument against Santo. If Jenkins, Santo and Banks were in the HOF instead of Williams, would you argue against Williams's enshrinement on the grounds "he never won anything"? No chance.

Good grief. I like Baines and hope he's in the HOF someday, but just because you're a Sox fan and you prefer Baines to Santo as a person (which you should) doesn't mean you need to go making absurd, asinine, ridiculous statements about either man's HOF credentials.

Can't you honor the man without making up ridiculously inaccurate arguments in an attempt to smear a guy who has almost nothing to do with Harold Baines? Good grief!

It's ridiculous you actually believe this **** you're spewing.

You're the one who brought up Santo on a day that Baines was being honored so please don't lecture me about "smearing" a guy. Everything I wrote is true. And last I checked, character can affect a player's Hall of Fame chances. See Joe Jackson, Pete Rose and Mark McGwire for starters.

You can pro-rate numbers all you want, but that's not going to change that Baines has better numbers than Santo. Longevity is not a negative. In Baines' case, it's a particular tribute to him that he came very close to 3,000 hits and racked up the RBI with bad knees for much of his career.

Forget about White Sox history. Baines is not only one of the top 10 DHs in baseball history, but he's high on that list.

Williams is a legitimate Hall of Famer, as is Banks and Jenkins. But there's a limit to everything, including the number of Cubs who belong in the Hall of Fame from a team which choked in 1969 and never won anything.

And while you're hung up on pro-rating stats, please pro-rate the number of clutch hits and postseason hits that Baines recorded to those that Santo recorded and get back to us.

skottyj242
07-21-2008, 10:10 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-080720sox120080720123036,0,7582111.photo

If you look at the left of the picture you see me shielding my face from the sun with my hat, Jenn is to my left and her brother Joshua is to her left.

South Side Irish
07-21-2008, 10:31 AM
You're the one who brought up Santo on a day that Baines was being honored so please don't lecture me about "smearing" a guy. Everything I wrote is true. And last I checked, character can affect a player's Hall of Fame chances. See Joe Jackson, Pete Rose and Mark McGwire for starters.


The three you mentioned have been accused/held to acts considered the great "sins" in baseball - gambling and steroids. Santo annoying you (or others) doesn't even come close to fitting in the category of "sins." This isn't the "Baines HOF" Hall of Fame, it's Baseballs. Santo probably belongs, but so many silly ass Sox fans just carpetbag him because he played for the Cubs.

And those 69 Cubs were great. It was a combination of an epic-funny meltdown and phenominal Mets team that kept them from winning anything. Oh, and don't forget that Harold, Fisk and Co. "choked" in '83 against Baltimore, forgetting how to hit. Harold won a couple divisions, but never brought home the big prize. You can't hold a player's (especially from another era) legacy hostage soley on whether or not he won titles. Not in baseball. It's (alone with Football) truly a TEAM sport. Lots of great have (and will) walked away without titles.

BainesHOF
07-21-2008, 10:44 AM
The three you mentioned have been accused/held to acts considered the great "sins" in baseball - gambling and steroids. Santo annoying you (or others) doesn't even come close to fitting in the category of "sins."

I simply said character can count to correct a previous poster.

And you and I have a different definition of "great." I don't think the '69 Cubs qualify.

By the way, Baines has the most hits (2,830) and RBI (1,628) of any player currently eligible for the Hall of Fame.

ArkanSox
07-21-2008, 11:06 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-080720sox120080720123036,0,7582111.photo

If you look at the left of the picture you see me shielding my face from the sun with my hat, Jenn is to my left and her brother Joshua is to her left.
This will be a very nice keepsake for you, so I'm happy you were able to get in the pic. That statue looks great, and I like how it captures his unique batting style. A well worn-out jersey of that era hangs in my closet.
-----------
fquaye149: " the only poetry four b's in rapid spondaic succession qualifies as is "bad poetry"

but...you know...if it makes you happy! just don't hide behind the mask of prosody"

Oh yeah, what about Beowulf? Mother Goose?
Bye, baby bunting,
Daddy's gone a - hunting,
Gone to get a rabbit skin
To wrap baby bunting in.

Here's a bit of a spin-off:

Bobby's been to Bagdad
to bomb the beast, to beat his breast,
to blow a bugle, and to bury a bayonet.
bye baby bunting.

Actually, I'm very impressed with your vocab and command of the English language, fquaye149. I wish that I could have had you in my poetry class back when I taught (or was I babysitting?) highschool freshmen.:smile:
----------
I think that Baines and Santo both belong. Someday, they surely will be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
Shoeless, McGwire, and Rose? Nope.

fquaye149
07-21-2008, 12:19 PM
You're the one who brought up Santo on a day that Baines was being honored so please don't lecture me about "smearing" a guy. Everything I wrote is true. And last I checked, character can affect a player's Hall of Fame chances. See Joe Jackson, Pete Rose and Mark McGwire for starters.

You can pro-rate numbers all you want, but that's not going to change that Baines has better numbers than Santo. Longevity is not a negative. In Baines' case, it's a particular tribute to him that he came very close to 3,000 hits and racked up the RBI with bad knees for much of his career.

Forget about White Sox history. Baines is not only one of the top 10 DHs in baseball history, but he's high on that list.

Williams is a legitimate Hall of Famer, as is Banks and Jenkins. But there's a limit to everything, including the number of Cubs who belong in the Hall of Fame from a team which choked in 1969 and never won anything.

And while you're hung up on pro-rating stats, please pro-rate the number of clutch hits and postseason hits that Baines recorded to those that Santo recorded and get back to us.

No actually I quoted a post that mentioned Santo as being worse than Baines in taht very thread. So I didn't bring it up.

Also quit saying pro-rating as if it validates your argument.

a.) You're using the term incorrectly

b.) Most HOFers are so because of evaluating their stats on a basis of how long it took them to accomplish their aggregate stats.

Whatever. If you really truly think that Baines is statistically a better player than Santo, despite the fact that all evidence to the contrary shows you to be absolutely full of garbage-stinking ****, go ahead. You can also believe the world is flat and that relativity theory is a bunch of malarkey if you want.

It sure as **** won't make you right though :rolleyes:

NSFWSoxFan
07-21-2008, 01:29 PM
...fquaye149: " the only poetry four b's in rapid spondaic succession qualifies as is "bad poetry"

but...you know...if it makes you happy! just don't hide behind the mask of prosody"

Oh yeah, what about Beowulf? Mother Goose?...
Indeed, Beowulf came immediately to my mind, also. Perhaps our poetry authority fquaye149 best be banging those books. :cool:

South Side Irish
07-21-2008, 01:46 PM
I simply said character can count to correct a previous poster.

And you and I have a different definition of "great." I don't think the '69 Cubs qualify.


Cool then we can just disagree then. :cool:

I don't place the '69 Cubs with the greatest of all times, but still think they were a fine team. Maybe great's a bit of an overstatement, but in many other years, they're a pennant winner.

Heffalump
07-21-2008, 02:26 PM
Agreed--but even if you WERE to ignore years played, Santo has a better resume

I'll take 820 OPS, 342 HR, and 1300 RBI from a gold glove 3B over an 820 OPS, 384 HR and 1600 RBI from a poor defensive OF/DH any day of the week, EVEN IF THEY HAD BOTH PLAYED IN THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF SEASONS.

But they didn't.

Harold Baines is a great guy, excellent player, probably not (unfortunately) a HOFer.

Santo is a ********er, ********, douchebag *******, excellent player, PERHAPS a HOFer.

That's all there is too it.

If you think Baines was a poor outfielder, you are nutz and obviously know very little about his career.

KenBerryGrab
07-21-2008, 02:31 PM
If you think Baines was a poor outfielder, you are nutz and obviously know very little about his career.

Agreed! Before he tore up his knee, Harold had good range and an arm that could rival Dewey Evans.

Heffalump
07-21-2008, 03:10 PM
Cool then we can just disagree then. :cool:

I don't place the '69 Cubs with the greatest of all times, but still think they were a fine team. Maybe great's a bit of an overstatement, but in many other years, they're a pennant winner.

Yeah, they went 15-24 from August 15 to the end of the year. They were in first by 9 games on August 16th and they finished the year 9 games out of first. That's a fine team in my book too! And don't say it was becasue the Mets were so "Amazing." I don't think there are too many pennant winners that finished out the year 15-24. It is simply one of the biggest chokes in modern baseball history. Please tell us in which of the "many other years" that finish would have held up as a pennant winner?

And the Sox didn't choke against Baltimore in the '83 ALCS. They basically got their asses handed to them from start to finish by a powerhouse Orioles team.

Sox Supporter
07-21-2008, 03:15 PM
My thoughts on Harold:

When he first came up, he could not hit a lefty if his life depended on it. Then, he learned to go with the pitch (they tended to throw him breaking balls away), and Harold would hit ropes to left field.

The Sox were really bad in 1980, so they exhibited great patience by letting him play every day as a young 21 year old.

Harold's homers were line-shot missiles.

9/17/83: Harold's SAC Fly plated Juice for the division championship.

Harold homered in the 25(?) inning game in 1984 to beat the Brewers.

The media did not like Harold because he was a terrible interview (he never said anything). This taught me how political the media can be. If you give them a "story", they love you and cover your back. Harold? Though he could hit for average, hit 25+ HR's, have 100+ RBI's, play solid D (early in career), and be a solid citizen, he was worthless to the tv, radio and print scribes because he did not make their lives easier.

Harold was a notoriously slow starter. But when the weather got warm...look out.

white sox bill
07-21-2008, 03:42 PM
I can remember probably from the 80's, it was a rain delay and seems like Harold had the game winner the previous night and they (Hawk and maybe Wimpy) were attempting to interview Harold. He kept giving one word answers---like "Yep" and "Nope" . After a brief one or two minutes, the TV camera cut to another programming. So much for Harold's interview!

BainesHOF
07-21-2008, 11:45 PM
Whatever. If you really truly think that Baines is statistically a better player than Santo, despite the fact that all evidence to the contrary shows you to be absolutely full of garbage-stinking ****, go ahead.

It sure as **** won't make you right though :rolleyes:

Your language speaks volumes about you, sir.

Mark
07-22-2008, 08:49 AM
If you think Baines was a poor outfielder, you are nutz and obviously know very little about his career.

You guys obviously saw him more on TV and in person than I did, but I'll never forget his running stab (and subsequent collision with the outfiled wall) of a line drive that he made late in the game of Tom Seaver's 300th win at Yankee Stadium. That was a helluva play.