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34 Inch Stick
05-09-2002, 12:39 PM
How long until we hear Chippy say Cruz is the best 0-6 (er, 0-7, 0-8 etc.) pitcher in baseball. He will now join the pantheon of Cubs who are lovable not because they are Cubs but because they lose so much.

MattSharp
05-09-2002, 12:42 PM
Chip Caray is the biggest idiot on the planet. He is one of the people who if ever actually met in person, first I would ****ing bitch him out and then my rage would take me into a full fledged ass whooping of him, by me..........

ode to veeck
05-09-2002, 12:42 PM
I'll never hear it, I haven't listened to a word he's said since he was the only coverage for one of the Sox-Flubs games last year and this year, hopefully we'll have full coverage for SNR!! (How bout it Red N Joe?)

FarWestChicago
05-09-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Chip Caray is the biggest idiot on the planet. He is one of the people who if ever actually met in person, first I would ****ing bitch him out and then my rage would take me into a full fledged ass whooping of him, by me.......... This guy is number one on my "punch first, ask questions later" list:

:moron

Who me? What did I do?

Blueprint1
05-09-2002, 12:48 PM
Juan Curz looked very bad yesterday. I live with cubs fans so I have to watch a few games every once in a while. They kept talking about how Cruz had such a low ERA but no wins. I watched him pitch yesterday and he did not impress. Whenever he had two strikes on a batter he would try to strike the batter out by nibbling around the plate. Not once did I see him challenge a batter. He was lucky to over give up a few runs with the number of walks he gave up. Cruz has not given up many earned runs but the number of runs scored during his outings is about twice as much as his ERA. ERA can be decieving when looking at the quality of a pitcher becuse once a man gets on base or an error that picther still has to give up the hits to allow that runner to score. I also believe Cruz is a classic case of a pitcher who will have arm problums. He looks like a stick on the mound and can throw over 90 as we know from Parque small picthers can be good but over time they break down.

34 Inch Stick
05-09-2002, 12:59 PM
I just think its funny how the Cubs collect the all time losers of the game and these guys are embraced. Before last year Grace was one of the leaders in games played without postseason success. Anthony Young had the longest streak for consecutive losses.

The J.P. Kinsella was a Cubs fan the mysterious voice would have said "if you give them Barney, floppy hats and precious moments figurines, they will come."

No-Neck
05-09-2002, 01:46 PM
I thought Juan Cruz was "Baby Pedro"? :moron Baby Pedro is delicious delicious!

DrCrawdad
05-09-2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
How long until we hear Chippy say Cruz is the best 0-6 (er, 0-7, 0-8 etc.) pitcher in baseball. He will now join the pantheon of Cubs who are lovable not because they are Cubs but because they lose so much.

Cut & Paste of my comments in the "Cubs Lose" thread:

Now regarding Cruz, BP can call him the 2nd unluckiest pitcher but after watching the games he's pitched - do you believe that?

Cruz has surrendered 10 unearned runs. That's more than most starting pitchers give up in an entire year.

Cruz' other numbers: 23 R 26 BB 26 SO 26 IP.

By comparison a Sox pitcher who's had his own control problems, Danny Wright 2 unearned runs, 24 R 14 BB 16 SO 37 IP.

If Cruz is unlucky this year because of lack of run support, what about last year where in his three wins he had 26 runs in support?

Cruz has potential. He has great movement. In fact, I'm impressed more with the movement than the velocity. However, 6 BB 2 HBP in 4 innings is wild, uncontrolled wildness. Cruz "good action" has to be harnessed by command, which he plainly hasn't had. It's not the ump's fault either. If Cruz didn't give up many hits yesterday then it was because for the most part the Cardinals' game plan seemed to be to stand there and duck.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


Cut & Paste of my comments in the "Cubs Lose" thread:

Now regarding Cruz, BP can call him the 2nd unluckiest pitcher but after watching the games he's pitched - do you believe that?

Cruz has surrendered 10 unearned runs. That's more than most starting pitchers give up in an entire year.

Cruz' other numbers: 23 R 26 BB 26 SO 26 IP.

By comparison a Sox pitcher who's had his own control problems, Danny Wright 2 unearned runs, 24 R 14 BB 16 SO 37 IP.

If Cruz is unlucky this year because of lack of run support, what about last year where in his three wins he had 26 runs in support?

Cruz has potential. He has great movement. In fact, I'm impressed more with the movement than the velocity. However, 6 BB 2 HBP in 4 innings is wild, uncontrolled wildness. Cruz "good action" has to be harnessed by command, which he plainly hasn't had. It's not the ump's fault either. If Cruz didn't give up many hits yesterday then it was because for the most part the Cardinals' game plan seemed to be to stand there and duck.

I don't understand all the negativity towards Cruz, sure he's wild, what young pitcher isn't? He has less than half a season under his belt. Make it sound as if he'll never harnass his command, besides Oswalt, I can't think of many young guys who came in right away with flawless command.

As for his record, its a team-oriented stat. You guys think Todd Ritchie was as bad as his 0-8 start last year indicated?

moochpuppy
05-09-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


I can't think of many young guys who came in right away with flawless command.



I certainly MA can't recall RK any in BUE the American RHLE League.

:D:

Vsahajpal
05-09-2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy


I certainly MA can't recall RK any in BUE the American RHLE League.

:D:

Fair enough, Buehrle has been the exception, and even he walked 19 batters in 51 1/3 his first season. His transition has been remarkable, no question.

DrCrawdad
05-09-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
I don't understand all the negativity towards Cruz, sure he's wild, what young pitcher isn't? He has less than half a season under his belt. Make it sound as if he'll never harnass his command, besides Oswalt, I can't think of many young guys who came in right away with flawless command.

As for his record, its a team-oriented stat. You guys think Todd Ritchie was as bad as his 0-8 start last year indicated?

Explain to me how I was negative towards Cruz? I never said, nor do I feel that I intimated, that Cruz will “never harnass his command.” Further, I never brought up Cruz’ win-loss record. I focused on Cruz’ pitching stats, outside of his win-loss record.

What I said wasn’t negative towards Cruz. Critical, yes. I said that Cruz has potential & that he has good stuff.

Let me ask you a question, I assume that you admire Steve Stone, what do you think Steve Stone would say about Juan Cruz if he were pitching with the Sox? I ask “if Cruz were a Sox pitcher” because IMO Stone is not entirely candid in his evaluations of Cub pitchers.

I’d imagine that Stone would say like – great movement, good velocity, trouble with command. In essence that's what I said.

How is it negative to honestly evaluate a pitcher?

It is a fact that Cruz has allowed way too many runs, even though they may have been unearned.

It is a fact that Cruz walks too many, hits too many batters.

It is a fact that Cruz’ outing yesterday was bad. Cruz was lucky that he didn’t give up more runs than he did.

Cruz may end up being a fine pitcher. Cruz is young and may overcome the lack of composure that he’s shown this season.

Cruz has been trumpeted by Cubune and Cub fans as a young Pedro and a solid starter. People pointed to his outings last season. Well as I mentioned and you didn’t address, Cruz had great run support last season. Also, two of his three wins were against crappy teams.

Cruz could very well end up being a young Pedro. Who knows. At this point though Cruz is not a solid, consistent starter.

I appreciate your contributions here. I am not trying to chase you away. However, if you’re looking for me to put a happy spin on a struggling Cub starter, you’ve got the wrong guy. Moreover, you’re probably in the wrong place.

- DrCrawdad.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


Explain to me how I was negative towards Cruz? I never said, nor do I feel that I intimated, that Cruz will “never harnass his command.” Further, I never brought up Cruz’ win-loss record. I focused on Cruz’ pitching stats, outside of his win-loss record.

What I said wasn’t negative towards Cruz. Critical, yes. I said that Cruz has potential & that he has good stuff.

Let me ask you a question, I assume that you admire Steve Stone, what do you think Steve Stone would say about Juan Cruz if he were pitching with the Sox? I ask “if Cruz were a Sox pitcher” because IMO Stone is not entirely candid in his evaluations of Cub pitchers.

I’d imagine that Stone would say like – great movement, good velocity, trouble with command. In essence that's what I said.

How is it negative to honestly evaluate a pitcher?

It is a fact that Cruz has allowed way too many runs, even though they may have been unearned.

It is a fact that Cruz walks too many, hits too many batters.

It is a fact that Cruz’ outing yesterday was bad. Cruz was lucky that he didn’t give up more runs than he did.

Cruz may end up being a fine pitcher. Cruz is young and may overcome the lack of composure that he’s shown this season.

Cruz has been trumpeted by Cubune and Cub fans as a young Pedro and a solid starter. People pointed to his outings last season. Well as I mentioned and you didn’t address, Cruz had great run support last season. Also, two of his three wins were against crappy teams.

Cruz could very well end up being a young Pedro. Who knows. At this point though Cruz is not a solid, consistent starter.

I appreciate your contributions here. I am not trying to chase you away. However, if you’re looking for me to put a happy spin on a struggling Cub starter, you’ve got the wrong guy. Moreover, you’re probably in the wrong place.

- DrCrawdad.

My bad, I shouldn't have hit the quote button, because I wasn't addressing you in particular. You raise valid points, my response was to the thread in general.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2002, 05:55 PM
As for the Young Pedro comparisons, virtually every scouting publication made that comparison, I don't think its fair to pin it on the "Cubune" and Cub fans who for the most part knew little about Juan Cruz until August of last year.

FarWestChicago
05-09-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
As for the Young Pedro comparisons, virtually every scouting publication made that comparison, I don't think its fair to pin it on the "Cubune" and Cub fans who for the most part knew little about Juan Cruz until August of last year. While this may be true, you know they would have done it anyway if the other scouting publications hadn't. Be honest. :smile:

DrCrawdad
05-09-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
My bad, I shouldn't have hit the quote button, because I wasn't addressing you in particular. You raise valid points, my response was to the thread in general.

Vic, I just wanted to say though - after I re-read my comments - that if my tone was harsh please don't take it personally. I apologize. I am sick and I'm in a nasty mood.

Your friend in baseball,
DrCrawdad.

Vsahajpal
05-09-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


Vic, I just wanted to say though - after I re-read my comments - that if my tone was harsh please don't take it personally. I apologize. I am sick and I'm in a nasty mood.

Your friend in baseball,
DrCrawdad.

Ne vous inquietez.

It's all good, DC.
:)

Vsahajpal
05-09-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
While this may be true, you know they would have done it anyway if the other scouting publications hadn't. Be honest. :smile:

Possibly, but then you're assuming they could come up with an original thought/idea/premonition, etc, etc,etc...

FarWestChicago
05-09-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


Possibly, but then you're assuming they could come up with an original thought/idea/premonition, etc, etc,etc... Damnit Vic, you weasel. That was good. :smile: