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View Full Version : *Official* Walks, Walkerball sink Sox in 7-2 loss to Rangers


Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2008, 09:52 PM
Discuss it here.

Rockabilly
07-11-2008, 09:55 PM
it's not over yet.. have faith

Patrick134
07-11-2008, 09:58 PM
Nice to give them a strong finish there. Pk crushed that last pitch, he may have finally broken out of his slump.

JB98
07-11-2008, 09:58 PM
it's not over yet.. have faith

Now, it's over.

Floyd didn't give us much of a chance tonight. Terrible outing.

Carrasco saved the bullpen. He's the player of the game for the Sox tonight. Great job of eating garbage-time innings.

JB98
07-11-2008, 09:58 PM
Nice to give them a strong finish there. Pk crushed that last pitch, he may have finally broken out of his slump.

Please let that be true. I've said that many, many times this season.

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2008, 09:59 PM
Nice to give them a strong finish there. Pk crushed that last pitch, he may have finally broken out of his slump.

I was following on GameDay; how far/where did he hit it?

whitesox901
07-11-2008, 09:59 PM
That was ****ing unbaring, how the **** did this happen.

**** IT, WHATEVER, lets get em tommarow, GO SOX!

Madvora
07-11-2008, 09:59 PM
I was following on GameDay; how far/where did he hit it?
He hit a line drive to CF. Big deal.

chisoxmike
07-11-2008, 10:00 PM
Only the Sox could make a guy with a 10+ ERA, can't pitch past the 5th, and is on his last days as a starter look like the second coming. :(:

Boondock Saint
07-11-2008, 10:00 PM
Gavin and his 3rd inning performance pretty well killed us. Had it not been for that inning, we may have made a game of it...oh well. Coulda woulda shoulda.

Blueprint1
07-11-2008, 10:00 PM
Hitting on the road still is not good.

WhiteSox5187
07-11-2008, 10:01 PM
Well, that sucked.

thomas35forever
07-11-2008, 10:01 PM
Just win one game this weekend so we'll be in first going into the break.

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2008, 10:03 PM
Arlington is the place where most of the Sox RH hitters would be wise to try an "opposite field" or "up the middle" approach, since there are such big gaps, and since the jet stream carries the ball far toward RCF.

Alas, they strike out 11 times tonight.

JB98
07-11-2008, 10:07 PM
Arlington is the place where most of the Sox RH hitters would be wise to try an "opposite field" or "up the middle" approach, since there are such big gaps, and since the jet stream carries the ball far toward RCF.

Alas, they strike out 11 times tonight.

Chased a lot of bad pitches too.

BeviBall!
07-11-2008, 10:07 PM
Nice to give them a strong finish there. Pk crushed that last pitch, he may have finally broken out of his slump.

Doubt it.

Brian26
07-11-2008, 10:08 PM
Melton was subtly criticizing the Sox starting pitchers' preparation for games when they're warming up and whether or not they come out ready to throw strikes.

ElevenUp
07-11-2008, 10:12 PM
Gavin just didn't have it tonight. Offense was terrible against a guy who has been awful up to this point. Let's just put this one behind us and get 'em tomorrow.

DumpJerry
07-11-2008, 10:16 PM
Nice to give them a strong finish there. Pk crushed that last pitch, he may have finally broken out of his slump.
1. He did not crush it.
2. He's not in a slump. This is how he is.
3. See my new sig.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-11-2008, 10:17 PM
Nice outing by Carrasco. He got the job done, saving the bullpen in a losing situation.

I think Thome is doing well now; he looks like he's out of his slump and I feel pretty good about him from here on out. Even when he was not hitting, he was drawing walks and getting on base.

Konerko, though, strikes out three times. Not good.

Lillian
07-11-2008, 10:18 PM
Carrasco was terrific in his first return to the Majors. I thought you guys would be pleased with his work. As I mentioned when he was called up, I've been paying fairly close attention to him, since Spring Training. He throws a lot of different pitches. He threw a couple of nice pitches with a drop down arm angle tonight. I think he could give them one more serviceable guy out of the Pen, at least until Bobby gets back. He did indeed save the Pen tonight.

JB98
07-11-2008, 10:23 PM
Nice outing by Carrasco. He got the job done, saving the bullpen in a losing situation.

I think Thome is doing well now; he looks like he's out of his slump and I feel pretty good about him from here on out. Even when he was not hitting, he was drawing walks and getting on base.

Konerko, though, strikes out three times. Not good.

Jim is driving the ball to all fields. A great sign for the second half.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-11-2008, 10:24 PM
It will be interesting to see Danks tomorrow against his former team. They have to be dying to see how good Danks is. Plus, the Sox got Masset and Rasner out of the deal. And Rasner still has potential. He's at Winston-Salem and doing pretty well.

Brian26
07-11-2008, 10:24 PM
Carrasco was terrific in his first return to the Majors. I thought you guys would be pleased with his work.

I wouldn't get too excited about it. He could easily go out there next time and stink the place up in a close-game situation. The Rangers had a big lead and were garbage-time swinging, and he managed to get the ball over the plate so they could put it in play. He did a nice job of eating innings, but this doesn't make anything more than the 7th guy out of the pen at this point.

Lip Man 1
07-11-2008, 10:44 PM
It was a bad game tonight pure and simple, it happens... but the most disappointing and frustrating thing to me is that again, against a pitcher making an emergency start with a losing record and a bloated ERA, he makes the Sox hitters look completely impotent.

The Rangers announcers honestly were shocked and amazed at how he was handling the Sox..to me it seemed there was genuine surprise that he actually got hitters out. If my impression is true, that says something about Mendoza and about the Sox hitters to boot.

I don't know what else to say, my guess is that we're going to keep seeing this in the future with rookie / bad pitchers.

Regarding Paul, he just looks lost right now. The All Star Break is coming at a good time for him. Maybe he can clear his head but the question that you have to start asking yourself is this, as long as the Sox are in the race, how much slack can they give him before finally saying, 'we have to make a change because he is killing the club.'

Lip

Cuck the Fubs
07-11-2008, 11:03 PM
I gotta give props to Thome here.

When Swish, Thome & Konerko were in the low low .200s I figured Jim was the one of the three that was finished.

Swish & Jim have rebounded nicely the last 2 months, while Paul is scuffling.

Hopefully Paul will come out of his funk as well, and soon.

Need to bounce back tomorrow, and get back on a winning streak.

ondafarm
07-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Gavin just didn't have it tonight. Offense was terrible against a guy who has been awful up to this point. Let's just put this one behind us and get 'em tomorrow.

Agreed.

DickAllen72
07-11-2008, 11:48 PM
Hats off to Carrasco for saving the bullpen tonight.

Floyd had a bad night and Konerko was terrible again.

TheOldRoman
07-12-2008, 01:41 AM
1. He did not crush it.
2. He's not in a slump. This is how he is.
3. See my new sig.
Well, I guess that settles it. :rolleyes:

FarWestChicago
07-12-2008, 06:22 AM
3. See my new sig.I hope Nellie or Kittle don't see it. :o:

southside rocks
07-12-2008, 08:41 AM
It was a bad game tonight pure and simple, it happens... but the most disappointing and frustrating thing to me is that again, against a pitcher making an emergency start with a losing record and a bloated ERA, he makes the Sox hitters look completely impotent.

The Rangers announcers honestly were shocked and amazed at how he was handling the Sox..to me it seemed there was genuine surprise that he actually got hitters out. If my impression is true, that says something about Mendoza and about the Sox hitters to boot.

Lip

I agree. I can't believe I listened to the entire game ... shows just how much I like Steve Stone; last year I'd have shut it down.

Anyway, I believe that Farmio and Stone said at one point that Mendoza gave up something like 8 runs in his last outing and he was so bad that the Rangers were going to send him to Triple-A and they ran him out once more, a 'last chance' start, last night -- and the Sox obligingly swung at everything and anything and gave him a career high in strikeouts.

THAT was embarrassing as a fan to watch.

Floyd, no big deal -- every pitcher has outings like that and his have been remarkably few this year. But the Sox batters, my lord, you couldn't PAY them to take a pitch last night! Whatever 'game plan' that was, it should never be repeated. :mad:

ETA: Yes, I just looked it up: Mendoza, his last time out, gave up 8 runs in 1 1/3 innings against the Angels.

hawkjt
07-12-2008, 09:11 AM
Sure, PK was not good, but neither were most of the bottom of the order.
Crede needs to heat up, AJ has looked bad of late at the plate,Cabrera struck out the first two times up on a total of 6 pitches..Swish and Alexei had 0fers....only Thome and Carlos looked half decent at the plate.

ugh. next. I just hope Johnny Danks relaxes and throws well-placed strikes unlike Gavin. Need to win tonite cuz Sunday with Jose could be bad.

2906
07-12-2008, 10:08 AM
Regarding Paul, he just looks lost right now. The All Star Break is coming at a good time for him. Maybe he can clear his head but the question that you have to start asking yourself is this, as long as the Sox are in the race, how much slack can they give him before finally saying, 'we have to make a change because he is killing the club.'

Lip

Mark, if they do make that change, it will come after the season. He'll have two years left on his deal and some team may want him.

For now, they'll ride it out with him. This is as bad as he's ever been. You almost have to keep trotting him out there and hope he'll start coming back to his historical norms.

Nonetheless, as was said, the All Star break is coming at the perfect time for Konerko.

kitekrazy
07-12-2008, 11:08 AM
He'll have two years left on his deal and some team may want him.


Only as a fire sale move. GMs see the same thing we do, unless they have a batting instructor the equivalent of a Don Cooper.

Tragg
07-12-2008, 11:09 AM
a batting instructor the equivalent of a Don Cooper.
The Sox could use one of those.

Frater Perdurabo
07-12-2008, 11:16 AM
Only as a fire sale move. GMs see the same thing we do, unless they have a batting instructor the equivalent of a Don Cooper.

The Sox could use one of those.

The hitting instructor equivalent of Don Cooper is Rangers' hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo. I often suggest the Rangers as a possible trading partner because as a Dallas resident, I'm more familiar with their personnel than any other team besides the Sox. I also know that hitters who come to Arlington usually do great, in part because of the park (big gaps, little foul ground, jet stream to RCF) but also because of Jaramillo. Right now the Rangers do not have a regular, everyday first baseman, so if Texas were to decide they wanted to make a run in 2009 and 2010, Konerko would be a good fit for what the Rangers need. Of course, I do not think Paulie would approve a trade to the Rangers.

Tragg
07-12-2008, 11:31 AM
The hitting instructor equivalent of Don Cooper is Rangers' hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo. I often suggest the Rangers as a possible trading partner because as a Dallas resident, I'm more familiar with their personnel than any other team besides the Sox. I also know that hitters who come to Arlington usually do great, in part because of the park (big gaps, little foul ground, jet stream to RCF) but also because of Jaramillo. Right now the Rangers do not have a regular, everyday first baseman, so if Texas were to decide they wanted to make a run in 2009 and 2010, Konerko would be a good fit for what the Rangers need. Of course, I do not think Paulie would approve a trade to the Rangers.
I think that Walker is probably the most able offensive coach on the staff. How much teaching to Baines and Cora do? They've got to get somebody to work with these young hitters. Ramirez has taken 1 walk in 10 games, has 7 in nearly 230 plate appearances. He hits 300 and has a 320 OBP. He could be an outstanding hitter but swinging at balls at his feet is going to catch up with him.
They didn't think much of Sweeney or Richar (both of whom are patient); loved Jerry Owens (who is not). I think the Sox could use another offensive coach.

Frater Perdurabo
07-12-2008, 11:37 AM
I think that Walker is probably the most able offensive coach on the staff. How much teaching to Baines and Cora do? They've got to get somebody to work with these young hitters. Ramirez has taken 1 walk in 10 games, has 7 in nearly 230 plate appearances. He hits 300 and has a 320 OBP. He could be an outstanding hitter but swinging at balls at his feet is going to catch up with him.
They didn't think much of Sweeney or Richar (both of whom are patient); loved Jerry Owens (who is not). I think the Sox could use another offensive coach.

You would think that Cora could teach some of them how to bunt (or bunt more effectively).

Doesn't Baines work mostly with the outfielders on their technique, positioning, routes, etc.?

oeo
07-12-2008, 12:26 PM
You would think that Cora could teach some of them how to bunt (or bunt more effectively).

Doesn't Baines work mostly with the outfielders on their technique, positioning, routes, etc.?

Sleeping technique?

TomBradley72
07-12-2008, 12:33 PM
Sure, PK was not good, but neither were most of the bottom of the order.
Crede needs to heat up, AJ has looked bad of late at the plate,Cabrera struck out the first two times up on a total of 6 pitches..Swish and Alexei had 0fers....only Thome and Carlos looked half decent at the plate.


Thank you for some sanity. Swisher is hitting .200 for the month of July, Crede, Cabrera and Quentin < .200...the whole team (other than Thome and Ramirez) need to get their heads out of their asses.

On a seperate note: Why is is "Walkerball" when we lose, but it was never "Walkerball" when we were winning 8 in a row, etc.?

TomBradley72
07-12-2008, 12:40 PM
They didn't think much of Sweeney or Richar (both of whom are patient); loved Jerry Owens (who is not). I think the Sox could use another offensive coach.

I think this is an innaccurate assessment.

Sweeney had a few chances at the bigs, didn't wow anyone, and was somewhat injury prone for a year or two. Just because he was packaged for Swisher (as part of KW's OBP strategy) doesn't mean they were down on him.

Richar got plenty of playing time in 2007, showed up late for spring training, then was injured, followed by a very slow start at AAA.

I don't see them "loving" Owens, he just looked like a pretty good option until Quentin showed what he could do once he was 100% healthy, BA decided to grow up, and Ramirez proved he could hit at the major league level. Wise is now playing the role on the roster that could have been Owens' if he had produced/stayed healthy.

BRDSR
07-12-2008, 12:46 PM
On a seperate note: Why is is "Walkerball" when we lose, but it was never "Walkerball" when we were winning 8 in a row, etc.?

White Sox wins are often the result of Cooperball, while White Sox losses are often the result of Walkerball. It's not very fair, especially when the Sox win or lose by a score of, I don't know...7-2. Either the pitching and hitting are both good or both bad.

Even recognizing that it's a little unfair, I hope the Sox replace Walker this offseason. I just can't see a reason not to.

russ99
07-12-2008, 12:57 PM
Looked to me like the Sox were pre-All Star break sleepwalking last night, not unlike on getaway days last year. Walker has little to do with it.

I hope Ozzie gave them crap after the game, and I hope we see much more effort our there tonight. It's a long season, but there's no excuse for last night.

TomBradley72
07-12-2008, 01:00 PM
White Sox wins are often the result of Cooperball, while White Sox losses are often the result of Walkerball. It's not very fair, especially when the Sox win or lose by a score of, I don't know...7-2. Either the pitching and hitting are both good or both bad.

Even recognizing that it's a little unfair, I hope the Sox replace Walker this offseason. I just can't see a reason not to.

Their most recent losses are due to both. Cooperball let's up 3 bombs with 1 out in the 8th against KC and 7 walks to the Rangers last night. We hit ~.300 as a team in June...seems like we're in the "no credit when they do well/blame when they door poorly" mode.

The problem with our offense is it's overall make up (lack of speed, run manufacturing capabilities). I don't see Walker or any hitting coach being able to influence that.

Tragg
07-12-2008, 01:13 PM
You would think that Cora could teach some of them how to bunt (or bunt more effectively).

I don't remember whether or not Cora could bunt. I just figured his job was to be Ozzie's yes-man. But he wasn't a bad little slapper - I remember he walked a lot, so he must have had a good eye. Maybe he could impart some of that knowledge on some hitters.
As for Baines - I don't know - perhaps you're right, although positioning outfielders seems like a light workload.

It's Dankerific
07-12-2008, 01:18 PM
That oppressive Texas heat has to be a reason for some of that performance. Luckily, thats not an October concern.

kitekrazy
07-12-2008, 01:18 PM
I think that Walker is probably the most able offensive coach on the staff. How much teaching to Baines and Cora do? They've got to get somebody to work with these young hitters. Ramirez has taken 1 walk in 10 games, has 7 in nearly 230 plate appearances. He hits 300 and has a 320 OBP. He could be an outstanding hitter but swinging at balls at his feet is going to catch up with him.
They didn't think much of Sweeney or Richar (both of whom are patient); loved Jerry Owens (who is not). I think the Sox could use another offensive coach.

I think the problem runs deep in the minors and scouting and maybe the over all WS philosophy.

I think the Sox look at potential and think certain basic skills can be added later. They have athletes while an organization like the Twins have baseball players. Pardon the comparison but they seem to have a winning team even with losses like Santana. They never have a lineup with 3-4 power hitters.

BRDSR
07-12-2008, 01:35 PM
Their most recent losses are due to both. Cooperball let's up 3 bombs with 1 out in the 8th against KC and 7 walks to the Rangers last night. We hit ~.300 as a team in June...seems like we're in the "no credit when they do well/blame when they door poorly" mode.

The problem with our offense is it's overall make up (lack of speed, run manufacturing capabilities). I don't see Walker or any hitting coach being able to influence that.

I know that by "bombs" you must mean "well-hit balls," but I feel compelled to point out that the Royals only hit one home run on Thursday. Regarding so-called Cooperball with a negative connotation, I think you're going to have a hard time making the point that Cooper is in any way responsible for a game in which the starting pitcher gave up zero earned runs and a very tired bullpen gave up 2. I guess you could get into the argument that the bullpen was tired because of the two previous games but...still. Thursday was more a prime example of so-called "Walkerball" than anything else.

As far as Walker's influence over the team's run manufacturing capabilities, I agree that Walker has none...it is precisely for that reason that I want a new one. This team isn't going to get fast by 2009 (although it may get faster), but it can get smarter at the plate, and that's what manufacturing runs is all about. If you don't think the hitting coach has any influence over a team's and batter's approach at the plate, you are wrong. The fact that Greg Walker apparently doesn't is why we need a new one.

kitekrazy
07-12-2008, 01:42 PM
The hitting instructor equivalent of Don Cooper is Rangers' hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo. I often suggest the Rangers as a possible trading partner because as a Dallas resident, I'm more familiar with their personnel than any other team besides the Sox. I also know that hitters who come to Arlington usually do great, in part because of the park (big gaps, little foul ground, jet stream to RCF) but also because of Jaramillo. Right now the Rangers do not have a regular, everyday first baseman, so if Texas were to decide they wanted to make a run in 2009 and 2010, Konerko would be a good fit for what the Rangers need. Of course, I do not think Paulie would approve a trade to the Rangers.

That won't work because they will be exposed to Greg Walker. In Walker's defense maybe the Sox just don't have guys who have ever worked on situational hitting.

Then again it didn't take long for Swisher and OC to mimick the rest of the lineup. That could point to Walker.

Maybe a players work ethic may have something to do with it. If you suck at hitting then get up early and spend some time in the cages.

It seems the philosophy hasn't changed this century. The team is full of power hitters. This time they are going thru so hitting coaches like the Manuel era.

There's no excuse for these "professional" player not to make adjustments. Yaz changed his whole hitting approach in his final years.

Unfortunately the steroid era has made the homerun the most important thing in baseball. You have to go watch guys who will never play in the big leagues to see a decent bunt.

Lip Man 1
07-12-2008, 04:58 PM
Kite:

Daver has consistently stated (and he follows the minor league system closely) that the Sox "promote" guys who can hit at the expense of everything else (defense, bunting, situational hitting). He's also consistently said the Sox minor league coaching staff is very poor at teaching things.

Lip

Brian26
07-12-2008, 10:04 PM
Nice to give them a strong finish there. Pk crushed that last pitch, he may have finally broken out of his slump.

Kudos to Patrick on his prognostication last night.

PK tonight: 4-4 and BB.