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BLRMKRdave
07-10-2008, 09:32 PM
....Fundamentals needed to Win a Baseball Game. Not Done tonight.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:35 PM
epic random capitalization

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:37 PM
You Sit At Your Desk, You Turn On Your Computer, You Spew **** On A Message Board.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 09:37 PM
Well - we took 2 of 3, I'll take that on the road any time. Buehrle deserved better.

DISCUSS...

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:38 PM
I said it before, but intelligence is definitely becoming a rare commodity in game threads.

Homefish must have a lot of puppets.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:38 PM
Buehrle continues to look solid.

Beat Texas.

ilsox7
07-10-2008, 09:38 PM
Crappy loss. Let's tighten up the defense before landing in Texas and win another series.

Sockinchisox
07-10-2008, 09:39 PM
Oh well, **** happens.

Get 'em tomorrow.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 09:39 PM
I said it before, but intelligence is definitely becoming a rare commodity in game threads.

Homefish must have a lot of puppets.

No kidding. Acording to some it was all Ozzie's fault.
I need to stay away from Gamethreads.

QCIASOXFAN
07-10-2008, 09:39 PM
I'll get in before the blame Ozzie hounds from the game thread stink this place up.

Let's get'em tomorrow.

oeo
07-10-2008, 09:39 PM
I said it before, but intelligence is definitely becoming a rare commodity in game threads.

Yeah, you just mentioned it about five minutes ago. Maybe you should type more to keep the intelligence level up.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:40 PM
Buehrle deserved the W tonight. He pitched a magnificent game. Dye looked good at the plate too.

Bill Naharodny
07-10-2008, 09:40 PM
At the beginning of the year, I despised seeing Swisher in center field. I don't feel a whole lot better about it now. And it's not because of Swish; he's serviceable. It's just not a winning team out there. It's not a World Series-caliber defense. It means Konerko's slowness and badness is infesting the lineup. And it means that balls will find the gaps repeatedly. That's not a winning formula for a team that relies on pitching.

Wise and BA are fine, but not -- in my view -- a long-term answer.

I still think, before it's all said and done, that Kenny Williams is going to try to find a center fielder. Who knows? It might even be the guy who was playing for the other team tonight.

Rdy2PlayBall
07-10-2008, 09:40 PM
I know we can all blame Konerko, but you can't say take the guy out when he has a chance to bat. He doesn't look great this year but you all know he can hit a homerun... He gave up a single, the bull-pen did the rest. I'd rather see Swisher at first... the only problem is who plays center?... I don't like BA at all when he bats. xD

...
07-10-2008, 09:40 PM
Konerko's looking good anyways...

peeonwrigley
07-10-2008, 09:40 PM
I hate lazy baseball.

rustysurf83
07-10-2008, 09:40 PM
Mark looked very strong, good feeling going into the break. When games like this happen I like to say FIDO, **** It Drive On. Let's kick the **** out of some people this weekend and finish strong.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 09:41 PM
My first time getting to title the *official* post game thread!!!! Shame it had to be a loss. I had set up for "Greink You Very Much..."

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:41 PM
crappy ending, move on

:shrug:

Patrick134
07-10-2008, 09:41 PM
Another series win, nice. Now on to Texas to do it again .

PatK
07-10-2008, 09:41 PM
I don't want to armchair QB, but at my house, we thought BA would have been put in center in the 8th and had Swish move to first.

Paulie blew this one, but lets try to get it back. Too bad MB was on the hook for the loss.

hawkjt
07-10-2008, 09:41 PM
Defense was sloppy...MB picked them up a couple times but in the 8th it got to him and now he is a loser tonite. He pitched too well to lose. Our offense was not good either...greinke was good ,I guess.

ugh. Texas looms...bring your bats and gloves boys...you will need them both.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:41 PM
Yeah, you just mentioned it about five minutes ago. Maybe you should type more to keep the intelligence level up.
Think before you type.

Seriously, then you might not do something like call Paulie a dumbass. You truly have no room to call the ALCS MVP a dumbass. He has done far more for this team than 90+% of the men who have put on a Sox uniform.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:42 PM
It means Konerko's slowness and badness is infesting the lineup.

New WSI username: "konerko's badness."

:rolleyes:

JB98
07-10-2008, 09:42 PM
Just make the routine plays, and this is likely a 1-0 victory. No excuse for giving up an inside-the-park HR. I turned the game off right then and there.

I'm very disappointed tonight. This should have been a win. I don't care about "series wins." Tonight's game was equally important as last night's and Tuesday night's and tomorrow night's. Losing tonight is not OK, just because we won the first two.

...
07-10-2008, 09:42 PM
We had the series win yesterday. Today, a loss.

veeter
07-10-2008, 09:43 PM
For a season and a half Paulie has looked old. Since he can't go back on the DL, can we at least put our best defense out there, for the end of the game? I had a feeling his return would hold us back, and it has. Against a better team we might have gotten swept in this series. MB looked great again.

sullythered
07-10-2008, 09:43 PM
This was an inexcusable loss. Whichever coach sets the outfield alignment should be fired and Konerko should go back to Charlotte. Are we going to be as dumb as the Cubs and not make the appropriate defensive changes late in the game. Guillen's hit should have been a flyout easily caught by a good centerfielder.

October26
07-10-2008, 09:43 PM
Well, that was bad. However, we won the series and Mark Buehrle saved the bullpen tonight with only Dotel and Logan pitching in the 8th inning.

Bad defense killed the Sox in the bottom of the 8th inning. :(:

Buehrle is the tough luck loser. Game is over. Time to go to Texas for a showdown with the Rangers this weekend.

Go Sox!

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 09:43 PM
Buehrle continues to look solid.

Beat Texas.

They are in a slugfest with LA now. I hope it goes all night. 10-7 LA in the 7th; too bad texas has used only one reliever.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:43 PM
You truly have no room to call the ALCS MVP a dumbass. He has done far more for this team than 90+% of the men who have put on a Sox uniform.

konerko gives me a bonerko

zaidecrannog
07-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Brian Anderson is a good defensive center fielder. Dotel has been bad this year on the second of back-to-back nights. The manager has a(nother) bad night.

Stringer
07-10-2008, 09:44 PM
it happens

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:44 PM
This was an inexcusable loss. Whichever coach sets the outfield alignment should be fired and Konerko should go back to Charlotte. Are we going to be as dumb as the Cubs and not make the appropriate defensive changes late in the game. Gillen's hit should have been a flyout easily caught by a good centerfielder.


And this post is the reason I'm calling it a night on WSI...

Railsplitter
07-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Not happy:angry:

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 09:45 PM
Brian Anderson is a good defensive center fielder. Dotel has been bad on back-to-back nights. The manager has a(nother) bad night.

Um...no. 3 K's in 10 pitches= very, very good.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:45 PM
Brian Anderson is a good defensive center fielder. Dotel has been bad on back-to-back nights. The manager has a(nother) bad night.

Yeah, Dotel was horrible striking out the side last night.

Dip****.

...
07-10-2008, 09:45 PM
Think before you type.

Seriously, then you might not do something like call Paulie a dumbass. You truly have no room to call the ALCS MVP a dumbass. He has done far more for this team than 90+% of the men who have put on a Sox uniform.

Who cares? Go ahead and live in the past. I want to win now, not jerk off to Konerko's 2005 ALCS MVP award. Konerko is a dumbass until he proves otherwise in the future.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:45 PM
Brian Anderson is a good defensive center fielder. Dotel has been bad on back-to-back nights. The manager has a(nother) bad night.
:rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:46 PM
Um...no. 3 K's in 10 pitches= very, very good.

No doubt. I love selective memory.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:46 PM
Konerko is a dumbass until he proves otherwise in the future.
I could say the same about yourself.

zaidecrannog
07-10-2008, 09:46 PM
Um...no. 3 K's in 10 pitches= very, very good.



Sorry, I meant he's been bad on the second of back-to-backs this year. Stop calling me names.

Gavin
07-10-2008, 09:46 PM
http://usversusthem.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ricky-bobby-right.jpg
That. Just. Happened.

EuroSox35
07-10-2008, 09:47 PM
Yeah, Dotel was horrible striking out the side last night.

Dip****.

He probably meant the 2nd game of a back to back

veeter
07-10-2008, 09:47 PM
I think he meant when he piches on back to back nights.

...
07-10-2008, 09:47 PM
I could say the same about yourself.

You could, but then you'd be wrong again.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 09:47 PM
Brian Anderson is a good defensive center fielder. Dotel has been bad on back-to-back nights. The manager has a(nother) bad night.

Care to edit that? :rolleyes:

jabrch
07-10-2008, 09:48 PM
Who cares? Go ahead and live in the past. I want to win now, not jerk off to Konerko's 2005 ALCS MVP award. Konerko is a dumbass until he proves otherwise in the future.

Pst...this team is in first place and is winning quite fine.

Pst 2 - Who cares what you do and don't masturbate to? This isn't the place for that discussion

Pst 3 - Konerko doesn't have to prove that he is not "a dumbass".

oeo
07-10-2008, 09:48 PM
Think before you type.

Seriously, then you might not do something like call Paulie a dumbass. You truly have no room to call the ALCS MVP a dumbass. He has done far more for this team than 90+% of the men who have put on a Sox uniform.

Didn't I already apologize for personally offending you?

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 09:48 PM
Good God, I haven't been on this board for very long, but the amount of ****-tossing and name calling going on in here tonight is epic... We just won 2 of three when we could have lost all three.

CALM DOWN.

champagne030
07-10-2008, 09:48 PM
Think before you type.

Seriously, then you might not do something like call Paulie a dumbass. You truly have no room to call the ALCS MVP a dumbass. He has done far more for this team than 90+% of the men who have put on a Sox uniform.

We still haven't moved past this ****?

Thanks for 2005 Walnuts, but please quit being lazy and catch a routine throw.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:48 PM
You could, but then you'd be wrong again.
Simply explain to me how Paulie is a dumbass. I recommend you refer to a dictionary before responding to me as you are absolutely clueless here.

BUMMER
07-10-2008, 09:49 PM
I don't want to armchair QB, but at my house, we thought BA would have been put in center in the 8th and had Swish move to first.

Paulie blew this one, but lets try to get it back. Too bad MB was on the hook for the loss.

I agree, but I know it's all hindsight and Paulie-lovers will bash me, but imo our defense is tighter with BA in CF & Swish at 1st - whether it's the 7th, 8th, or 9th. In a one-run game, it IS Ozzie's call when to put in the best "D".

Yes, you're gonna lose some games, but these are the shoulda, coulda, woulda ones that can haunt you in sept.

ilsox7
07-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Good God, I haven't been on this board for very long, but the amount of ****-tossing and name calling going on in here tonight is epic... We just won 2 of three when we could have lost all three.

CALM DOWN.

You obviously missed the edict that MLB just handed down that says b/c of tonight's loss, the Sox are eliminated from playoff contention.

oeo
07-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Simply explain to me how Paulie is a dumbass. I recommend you refer to a dictionary before responding to me as you are absolutely clueless here.

He made a stupid play. Geesh, gobears, get off your high horse.

peeonwrigley
07-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Just make the routine plays, and this is likely a 1-0 victory. No excuse for giving up an inside-the-park HR. I turned the game off right then and there.

I'm very disappointed tonight. This should have been a win. I don't care about "series wins." Tonight's game was equally important as last night's and Tuesday night's and tomorrow night's. Losing tonight is not OK, just because we won the first two.

Good post. Sums up my thoughts.

kobo
07-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Think before you type.

Seriously, then you might not do something like call Paulie a dumbass. You truly have no room to call the ALCS MVP a dumbass. He has done far more for this team than 90+% of the men who have put on a Sox uniform.
Who cares about the past? Konerko couldn't hold on to a ball he should have caught and was called a dumbass. I yelled out son of a bitch when it happened. It's the heat of the moment and people are reacting.

MISoxfan
07-10-2008, 09:50 PM
For a season and a half Paulie has looked old. Since he can't go back on the DL, can we at least put our best defense out there, for the end of the game? I had a feeling his return would hold us back, and it has. Against a better team we might have gotten swept in this series. MB looked great again.

And it has? You're really ready to declare your prediction correct after 3 whole games? During which we're 2-1?

EuroSox35
07-10-2008, 09:50 PM
We need some sort of 3 way deal before the break that lands us a good corner OF that can hit for power. Bye bye Konerko and Thome, Dye to DH, Swisher to 1st, Anderson/Wise in CF. This whole loss is on Konerko, not even trying to catch that ball on the DP, and him being at first leads to us having Swisher in CF, ball after ball getting lost in the gap!

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:51 PM
We need some sort of 3 way deal before the break that lands us a good corner OF that can hit for power. Bye bye Konerko and Thome, Dye to DH, Swisher to 1st, Anderson/Wise in CF. This whole loss is on Konerko, not even trying to catch that ball on the DP, and him being at first leads to us having Swisher in CF, ball after ball getting lost in the gap!

i give this post five (5) rolleyes

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 09:51 PM
We need some sort of 3 way deal before the break that lands us a good corner OF that can hit for power. Bye bye Konerko and Thome, Dye to DH, Swisher to 1st, Anderson/Wise in CF. This whole loss is on Konerko, not even trying to catch that ball on the DP, and him being at first leads to us having Swisher in CF, ball after ball getting lost in the gap!

I did not see the play. He did not try to catch it? Really?

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:52 PM
We need some sort of 3 way deal before the break that lands us a good corner OF that can hit for power. Bye bye Konerko and Thome, Dye to DH, Swisher to 1st, Anderson/Wise in CF. This whole loss is on Konerko, not even trying to catch that ball on the DP, and him being at first leads to us having Swisher in CF, ball after ball getting lost in the gap!

God, first place ****ing sucks!

DickAllen72
07-10-2008, 09:52 PM
I don't want to armchair QB, but at my house, we thought BA would have been put in center in the 8th and had Swish move to first.
They probably would have won had that been the case.

Anyway, was Cabrera holding up his hands telling Ramirez not to throw that ball? It seemed as if Ramirez was turning to throw the ball in and then saw Cabrera holding both hands up in the air and hesitated before throwing the ball in late on the inside the park homer.

Crappy baseball in the entire series, but at least they got two wins.

peeonwrigley
07-10-2008, 09:52 PM
I did not see the play. He did not try to catch it? Really?

He was in awful position. It was lazy.

...
07-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Pst...this team is in first place and is winning quite fine.

Pst 2 - Who cares what you do and don't masturbate to? This isn't the place for that discussion

Pst 3 - Konerko doesn't have to prove that he is not "a dumbass".

Do you not understand the metaphor? Pretty simple concept and you felt compelled to take it literally. Weird.

Bill Naharodny
07-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Who cares about the past? Konerko couldn't hold on to a ball he should have caught and was called a dumbass. I yelled out son of a bitch when it happened. It's the heat of the moment and people are reacting.

Totally. I can't believe we're actually having a discussion about the Latin root of "dumbass" (I think it's dumbarse, by the way.).

jabrch
07-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Bye bye Konerko and Thome

Not sure how much Sox baseball you watch. but Thome hit .294/.402/.662 in June and .321/.441/.429 so far in July.

Why would you want to say Bye Bye to him?

Bill Naharodny
07-10-2008, 09:53 PM
They probably would have won had that been the case.

Anyway, was Cabrera holding up his hands telling Ramirez not to throw that ball? It seemed as if Ramirez was turning to throw the ball in and then saw Cabrera holding both hands up in the air and hesitated before throwing the ball in late on the inside the park homer.

Crappy baseball in the entire series, but at least they got two wins.

I think you're right about Cabrera holding up his hands.

...
07-10-2008, 09:54 PM
Pst...this team is in first place and is winning quite fine.

Pst 2 - Who cares what you do and don't masturbate to? This isn't the place for that discussion

Pst 3 - Konerko doesn't have to prove that he is not "a dumbass".

Why wouldn't he want to? If he keeps this up, he's bound to get Richie Sexson'd. Of course he needs to prove otherwise.

JB98
07-10-2008, 09:54 PM
We need some sort of 3 way deal before the break that lands us a good corner OF that can hit for power. Bye bye Konerko and Thome, Dye to DH, Swisher to 1st, Anderson/Wise in CF. This whole loss is on Konerko, not even trying to catch that ball on the DP, and him being at first leads to us having Swisher in CF, ball after ball getting lost in the gap!

Nevermind that Thome has been ripping the ball all over the field lately.

zaidecrannog
07-10-2008, 09:54 PM
God, first place ****ing sucks!

Yeah, first place is terrible.

Dip****.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
I think you're right about Cabrera holding up his hands.

He definitely had his arms up.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
God, first place ****ing sucks!

Yep and 11 out of 14 just ain't gettin' it done!

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
Why wouldn't he want to? If he keeps this up, he's bound to get Richie Sexson'd. Of course he needs to prove otherwise.

Give me a break.

oeo
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
I did not see the play. He did not try to catch it? Really?

He tried, just not very hard.

The ball tailed on him, but Konerko makes the play 99.9999999999999999999999% of the time. Usually he puts himself in a better position, but he really ****ed that one up.

Again, he looks lost out there. Does not look confident at the plate or on the field.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
Do you not understand the metaphor? Pretty simple concept and you felt compelled to take it literally. Weird.

I got it. It just sucks. There's nothing wrong with not overreacting, and there is no need to use a filthy pseudo-sexual metaphor for supporting a baseball player who has given so much to this franchise.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
Yeah, first place is terrible.

Dip****.

I see what you did there...

kobo
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
Yeah, first place is terrible.

Dip****.
He was being sarcastic.

ilsox7
07-10-2008, 09:55 PM
He definitely had his arms up.

He was making the "Y" in YMCA.

veeter
07-10-2008, 09:56 PM
And it has? You're really ready to declare your prediction correct after 3 whole games? During which we're 2-1?If these games were against a quality opponent, i.e. the Twins, we get blown out. We'd have been 0-3. We were rolling with great D and speed. That abruptly changed. I hope Paulie proves me wrong, but he's not the hitter/ player he was before 2007.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 09:56 PM
He was in awful position. It was lazy.

But you said he did not try.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 09:56 PM
Why wouldn't he want to? If he keeps this up, he's bound to get Richie Sexson'd. Of course he needs to prove otherwise.
You have got to be kidding me?

Nope, you're not. You're serious.

zaidecrannog
07-10-2008, 09:57 PM
He was being sarcastic.

Is his teal broken?

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 09:57 PM
This was for all the people that said Paulie is a better first baseman than Swisher. Anybody that still thinks that is crazy. When Paulie plays first it makes our IF and OF defense worse. I'm sorry, but I'll take the good overall defense until Konerko does something consistently at the plate. A ton of people on here act like we are losing so much on offense by replacing Konerko with BA or Wise in the lineup. I'm sorry people, but the fact of the matter is that we are not in 2008. This is a new year and not the old Konerko.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 09:57 PM
You have got to be kidding me?

Nope, you're not. You're serious.

I'm shocked...well - not really...

Bill Naharodny
07-10-2008, 09:57 PM
He was making the "Y" in YMCA.

And Ramirez doesn't know that song. Really unfortunate.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 09:58 PM
He was making the "Y" in YMCA.

A timeless tune.

I got it. It just sucks. There's nothing wrong with not overreacting, and there is no need to use a filthy pseudo-sexual metaphor for supporting a baseball player who has given so much to this franchise.

Baseball is the Filthiest sport in the World.

October26
07-10-2008, 09:58 PM
That's it - this thread is giving me a headache. I am logging off - can't take WSI anymore tonight. Must be the weather - people are crazy here. Goodnight and Go Sox!

kobo
07-10-2008, 09:59 PM
He tried, just not very hard.

The ball tailed on him, but Konerko makes the play 99.9999999999999999999999% of the time. Usually he puts himself in a better position, but he really ****ed that one up.

Again, he looks lost out there. Does not look confident at the plate or on the field.
A rib injury is a serious injury to come back from. You literally have to let it heal on its own, and it takes a good 2 weeks to do so, and that's with rest and taking it easy and trying not to put any kind of pressure/strain on that side of your body. It's possible PK still isn't 100%, and if he isn't, he's not going to get better playing baseball every day. I wish they would have held him back until after the break.

...
07-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Give me a break.

So you're inferring, by your comment, that Konerko would prefer to hit .212 for the rest of his career and if he did, he wouldn't get DFA'd?

Of course that's not going to happen but I was told Konerko doesn't need to prove he is capable of playing at a level closer to his career line. Thats just plain dumb.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Is his teal broken?

What's a teal?

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:00 PM
So you're inferring, by your comment, that Konerko would prefer to hit .212 for the rest of his career and if he did, he wouldn't get DFA'd?

Of course that's not going to happen but I was told Konerko doesn't need to prove he is capable of playing at a level closer to his career line. Thats just plain dumb.

Imply. The reader or listener infers.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 10:00 PM
So you're inferring, by your comment, that Konerko would prefer to hit .212 for the rest of his career and if he did, he wouldn't get DFA'd?

Of course that's not going to happen but I was told Konerko doesn't need to prove he is capable of playing at a level closer to his career line. Thats just plain dumb.

The rest of his career? Yes, of course he's gone.

People apparently forget about Konerko's career numbers these days...

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 10:00 PM
What's a teal?I think he meant this.

PaleHoser
07-10-2008, 10:00 PM
I still think, before it's all said and done, that Kenny Williams is going to try to find a center fielder. Who knows? It might even be the guy who was playing for the other team tonight.

I've always been a fan of David DeJesus. I just don't think it's a good idea to trade within your own division and our last deal with Kansas City didn't work out so well (See Sisco, Andrew).

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:00 PM
This was for all the people that said Paulie is a better first baseman than Swisher. Anybody that still thinks that is crazy. When Paulie plays first it makes our IF and OF defense worse. I'm sorry, but I'll take the good overall defense until Konerko does something consistently at the plate. A ton of people on here act like we are losing so much on offense by replacing Konerko with BA or Wise in the lineup. I'm sorry people, but the fact of the matter is that we are not in 2008. This is a new year and not the old Konerko.

Konerko is a better defensive first baseman than Swisher. The IF defense is not worse with Konerko playing. That being said, Swisher-Konerko is likely weaker than Anderson-Swisher.

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:01 PM
A rib injury is a serious injury to come back from. You literally have to let it heal on its own, and it takes a good 2 weeks to do so, and that's with rest and taking it easy and trying not to put any kind of pressure/strain on that side of your body. It's possible PK still isn't 100%, and if he isn't, he's not going to get better playing baseball every day. I wish they would have held him back until after the break.

Sorry, an injury is no excuse for making stupid plays.

He just doesn't seem 100% sure with what he's doing. The confidence is definitely not there.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 10:01 PM
The gamethread and postgame thread have resolved one major mystery. We now know where all the calls to Rongey come from.

peeonwrigley
07-10-2008, 10:01 PM
But you said he did not try.

No, I didn't. That was someone else.

zaidecrannog
07-10-2008, 10:02 PM
Konerko is a better defensive first baseman than Swisher. The IF defense is not worse with Konerko playing. That being said, Swisher-Konerko is likely weaker than Anderson-Swisher.

And is there a reason why it can't be Anderson-Konerko for the last two innings?

thomas35forever
07-10-2008, 10:02 PM
This was for all the people that said Paulie is a better first baseman than Swisher. Anybody that still thinks that is crazy. When Paulie plays first it makes our IF and OF defense worse. I'm sorry, but I'll take the good overall defense until Konerko does something consistently at the plate. A ton of people on here act like we are losing so much on offense by replacing Konerko with BA or Wise in the lineup. I'm sorry people, but the fact of the matter is that we are not in 2008. This is a new year and not the old Konerko.
Alright, we'll alter a lineup that's been in first place most of the year. That'll solve our problems. If you don't want power in the middle of the order, fine. I guess it does make sense to replace a veteran power hitter with an up-and-downer or a career minor leaguer.:rolleyes:

...
07-10-2008, 10:02 PM
You have got to be kidding me?

Nope, you're not. You're serious.

If Konerko DIDN'T prove otherwise and hit .212 for the remainder of his contract, you believe he would still have a job?

Of course that's far fetched but so is the idea that he doesn't have to prove he can still hit.

kobo
07-10-2008, 10:03 PM
Sorry, an injury is no excuse for making stupid plays.

He just doesn't seem 100% sure with what he's doing. The confidence is definitely not there.
I wasn't trying to use the injury as an excuse, just saying he might have come back sooner than he should have and I think it shows. And that could be why he isn't very confident right now.

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:03 PM
Konerko is a better defensive first baseman than Swisher.

I definitely have to disagree with this. Especially considering how bad Konerko has looked defensively this year. It's not just recently that he's been having trouble, it's been all year.

gobears1987
07-10-2008, 10:04 PM
If Konerko DIDN'T prove otherwise and hit .212 for the remainder of his contract, you believe he would still have a job?

Of course that's far fetched but so is the idea that he doesn't have to prove he can still hit.
Konerko won't hit .212 the rest of his contract or career for that matter. There is absolutely no help for you if you think that will be the case.

Don't look at his season numbers. Look at his career numbers. Even Frank had some bad seasons.

UofCSoxFan
07-10-2008, 10:04 PM
Games like this illustrate how we either need Konerko to start hitting or we just can't play him.

He came up earlier with 2 on and flew out weekly. When he did get a 2 out hit, it didn't mean much since it would take a HR or two more hits to score him.

Swisher slipped and dropped a flyball and played a single into a double. The ball Guillen hit over his head, whatever....I doubt Anderson catches that but who knows.

But it would have been moot if PK cuaght the damn ball at first. It was making me sick that the announcers kept making excuses that the ball tailed on Konerko. He half-assed it and took it for granted and got burned. Alexei has a guy trying to kill him at second and can't always find the seems to get a straight throw. PK has to catch that ball.

If he is going to suck at the plate and play half-assed D, we can't have him play much longer. I think we are better if we get the good PK at the dish, but honestly we don't have much more time to wait....espcecially if he (or Swisher) becomes a liability in the field.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:04 PM
And is there a reason why it can't be Anderson-Konerko for the last two innings?

No, there isn't.

I definitely have to disagree with this. Especially considering how bad Konerko has looked defensively this year. It's not just recently that he's been having trouble, it's been all year.

I disagree that he has looked bad defensively "all year".

champagne030
07-10-2008, 10:05 PM
Konerko is a better defensive first baseman than Swisher. The IF defense is not worse with Konerko playing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one because there's no chance I'm buying it at this stage of PK's career.........

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:06 PM
I wasn't trying to use the injury as an excuse, just saying he might have come back sooner than he should have and I think it shows.

Then that's stupid on the White Sox part for letting him come back. We were playing fine without him, there was no need for Konerko to rush back.

If this is the case (that he's not ready), then he should have sat out the rest of the first half, and just came back next Friday.

cheezheadsoxfan
07-10-2008, 10:07 PM
I got it. It just sucks. There's nothing wrong with not overreacting, and there is no need to use a filthy pseudo-sexual metaphor for supporting a baseball player who has given so much to this franchise.

Thank you. I found it offensive as well.

...
07-10-2008, 10:07 PM
The rest of his career? Yes, of course he's gone.

People apparently forget about Konerko's career numbers these days...

Right, and thats why I explicitly stated that he needs to prove otherwise and then was told "Konerko doesn't need to prove otherwise"

If he didn't prove otherwise, he'd hit .212 for the rest of his career and would most definitely get Sexson'd; thus the comment.

Not brain surgery by any means.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:07 PM
No, I didn't. That was someone else.

My apologies. :redface:

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:08 PM
I disagree that he has looked bad defensively "all year".

Really? I've seen his small range get even smaller, and the sharply hit balls to him that he used to handle with ease have become troublesome.

He's looked shaky all year; I stick by that statement.

kobo
07-10-2008, 10:09 PM
Then that's stupid on the White Sox part for letting him come back. We were playing fine without him, there was no need for Konerko to rush back.

If this is the case (that he's not ready), then he should have sat out the rest of the first half, and just came back next Friday.
Agree. With the way the team was playing I really thought they were going to wait to bring him back.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:09 PM
Really? I've seen his small range get even smaller, and the sharply hit balls to him that he used to handle with ease have become troublesome.

He's looked shaky all year; I stick by that statement.

:shrug:

...
07-10-2008, 10:10 PM
Konerko won't hit .212 the rest of his contract or career for that matter. There is absolutely no help for you if you think that will be the case.

Don't look at his season numbers. Look at his career numbers. Even Frank had some bad seasons.

I just said, in the text you quoted, it was far fetched. If you cannot grasp the concept I am defending, good luck to you.

WhiteSoxOnly
07-10-2008, 10:10 PM
Games like this illustrate how we either need Konerko to start hitting or we just can't play him.

He came up earlier with 2 on and flew out weekly. When he did get a 2 out hit, it didn't mean much since it would take a HR or two more hits to score him.

Swisher slipped and dropped a flyball and played a single into a double. The ball Guillen hit over his head, whatever....I doubt Anderson catches that but who knows.

But it would have been moot if PK cuaght the damn ball at first. It was making me sick that the announcers kept making excuses that the ball tailed on Konerko. He half-assed it and took it for granted and got burned. Alexei has a guy trying to kill him at second and can't always find the seems to get a straight throw. PK has to catch that ball.

If he is going to suck at the plate and play half-assed D, we can't have him play much longer. I think we are better if we get the good PK at the dish, but honestly we don't have much more time to wait....espcecially if he (or Swisher) becomes a liability in the field.

Post of the night.Frame this beauty it's 100 % dead on.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:10 PM
Konerko is a better defensive first baseman than Swisher. The IF defense is not worse with Konerko playing. That being said, Swisher-Konerko is likely weaker than Anderson-Swisher.


You are crazy my friend...u must not watch the games. Swisher is a way better first baseman than PK, just like BA is a way better CF than Swisher. The problem is that too many people get their feelings hurt when something bad is said about Konerko. In 2008, Paul Konerko sucks, simple as that. He has been great in the past and I am grateful for that. This year is a different story.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:11 PM
Well, this weekend let's hope our starters all pitch like MB did tonight. Texas' lineup is stacked.

Texas with 19 hits, in a 10-10 tie in the 8th against LA. I hope they play all night.

...
07-10-2008, 10:11 PM
Imply. The reader or listener infers.

You're correct :D:

Illini Stripes
07-10-2008, 10:11 PM
Do any of you really feel that BA or Wise catch either deep center field drives by Guillen or Teahen??? Those were both bombs! :scratch:

JB98
07-10-2008, 10:11 PM
Then that's stupid on the White Sox part for letting him come back. We were playing fine without him, there was no need for Konerko to rush back.

If this is the case (that he's not ready), then he should have sat out the rest of the first half, and just came back next Friday.

What makes you think Konerko rushed back?

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:12 PM
Post of the night.Frame this beauty it's 100 % dead on.

Bull****. It's a load of what-have-you-done-for-me-lately garbage.

ilsox7
07-10-2008, 10:12 PM
You are crazy my friend...u must not watch the games. Swisher is a way better first baseman than PK, just like BA is a way better CF than Swisher. The problem is that too many people get their feelings hurt when something bad is said about Konerko. In 2008, Paul Konerko sucks, simple as that. He has been great in the past and I am grateful for that. This year is a different story.

INR has never even been to a Sox game in person.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:12 PM
Looks like Konerko is the latest whipping dog. First it was Thome. Then Cabrera. Then Swisher. Dotel was hated on for a while. I'm sure there will be plenty of Javy hate after his next rough start.

Sox fans are the worst.:redneck

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:13 PM
Sorry, an injury is no excuse for making stupid plays.

He just doesn't seem 100% sure with what he's doing. The confidence is definitely not there.

Or the swagger...

We need more confidence and swagger from PK...

Or maybe we just need to chill out and not overreact to one loss.

stl_sox_fan
07-10-2008, 10:13 PM
Dang!! Just finished watching. Was really expecting a sweep. Just bad all around in that 8th inning. Go get 'em tomorrow.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 10:14 PM
Right, and thats why I explicitly stated that he needs to prove otherwise and then was told "Konerko doesn't need to prove otherwise"

If he didn't prove otherwise, he'd hit .212 for the rest of his career and would most definitely get Sexson'd; thus the comment.

Not brain surgery by any means.

Do you sincerely think Konerko is going to hit .212 for the rest of this season, or the rest of his career?

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to go to, say, Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml) to see that Konerko's career stats are solid.

Bashing Konerko is the thing to do these days, and it's getting ****ing old. If he somehow continues his woes, fine, let's re-examine his status with the Sox. But c'mon...I think many people are jumping the gun.

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:14 PM
What makes you think Konerko rushed back?

That was something kobo speculated.

...
07-10-2008, 10:14 PM
I got it. It just sucks. There's nothing wrong with not overreacting, and there is no need to use a filthy pseudo-sexual metaphor for supporting a baseball player who has given so much to this franchise.

Yeah, it gets to be pretty filthy when you blow it up and converse about it. if you were really concerned, you would have PM'd me.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:14 PM
Looks like Konerko is the latest whipping dog. First it was Thome. Then Cabrera. Then Swisher. Dotel was hated on for a while. I'm sure there will be plenty of Javy hate after his next rough start.

Sox fans are the worst.:redneck

Yes but one thing is consistent: the pinning of every loss on Ozzie. Makes me sick.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:15 PM
Konerko is a better defensive first baseman than Swisher. The IF defense is not worse with Konerko playing. . .

I can't disagree more with those two statements.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:15 PM
INR has never even been to a Sox game in person.


That would explain it.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:15 PM
Yes but one thing is consistent: the pinning of every loss on Ozzie. Makes me sick.

Ozzie deserves this one.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 10:16 PM
Looks like Konerko is the latest whipping dog. First it was Thome. Then Cabrera. Then Swisher. Dotel was hated on for a while. I'm sure there will be plenty of Javy hate after his next rough start.

Sox fans are the worst.:redneck

Konerko stole my bike. I am no longer a Sox fan.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:16 PM
Ozzie deserves this one.

I blame Herm.

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:16 PM
Or the swagger...

We need more confidence and swagger from PK...

Or maybe we just need to chill out and not overreact to one loss.

Somebody's overreacting alright.

I said he doesn't look confident. Never once have I questioned his abilities, or freaked out. I think in the end, Konerko will be around the norm of his career.

thomas35forever
07-10-2008, 10:16 PM
That would explain it.
Did you miss the sarcasm? Look at his sig. If you look at his avatar, he also writes game recaps for this site. Yep, he definitely doesn't watch anything even remotely close to a Sox game.:rolleyes:

JB98
07-10-2008, 10:17 PM
That was something kobo speculated.

You're right. Should have read the quoted material more carefully. I apologize.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 10:17 PM
INR has never even been to a Sox game in person.

But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

He borrowed my ice bucket.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:18 PM
Ozzie deserves this one.

Onda - you sure are consistent. That doesn't make you right - just consistent. :D:

WhiteSox5187
07-10-2008, 10:18 PM
Well, the bad thing about this is that the Twins won today so we lost a game and Buerhle didn't deserve the loss tonight. But good teams have bad games. And we won two games we didn't really deserve to win. Some defensive lapses out there, but oh well. Let's go on to Texas and sweep them there.

...
07-10-2008, 10:18 PM
Do you sincerely think Konerko is going to hit .212 for the rest of this season, or the rest of his career?

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to go to, say, Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml) to see that Konerko's career stats are solid.

Bashing Konerko is the thing to do these days, and it's getting ****ing old. If he somehow continues his woes, fine, let's re-examine his status with the Sox. But c'mon...I think many people are jumping the gun.

Is this a joke? I've said 100 times, it was hypothetical.

I was told that Paul didn't need to prove "otherwise" meaning he didnt need to prove he can it.

Obviously, if he (hypothetically) doesn't prove he can hit, he would (hypothetically) hit .212 for the rest of his career and (hypothetically) get DFA'd.

It's pretty obvious that he DOES need to prove otherwise.

I heart Paul Konerko.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:19 PM
But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

He borrowed my ice bucket.


Gold... :D:

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:19 PM
You're right. Should have read the quoted material more carefully. I apologize.

No need...I do it all the time.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:19 PM
Or the swagger...

We need more confidence and swagger from PK...

Or maybe we just need to chill out and not overreact to one loss.

Yeah and the fire in his belly has dipped ten degrees fahrenheit this year.

You can look it up in the Baseball Guide to Unverifiable Intangibles and Stupid Macho Metaphors.

Me? I can see it just by looking at his stance at first.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:19 PM
Somebody's overreacting alright.

I said he doesn't look confident. Never once have I questioned his abilities, or freaked out. I think in the end, Konerko will be around the norm of his career.

I know - that was tongue in cheek. I have no problem with your posts OEO.

I don't think PK's problem is "confidence" as much as it is getting enough reps in. I wish they'd have left him in Charlotte a bit longer to see more innings at 1B before bringing him back.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:20 PM
Did you miss the sarcasm? Look at his sig. If you look at his avatar, he also writes game recaps for this site. Yep, he definitely doesn't watch anything even remotely close to a Sox game.:rolleyes:


Thank you. I did notice the sarcasm. Based on the amount of games he has seen he should know that Konerko can't hold Swisher's jock at firstbase defensively. I like Konerko just as much as everybody else, but u have to be honest at some point.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:21 PM
I blame Herm.

Nah, this one's on Satan. :angry:

ilsox7
07-10-2008, 10:22 PM
Thank you. I did notice the sarcasm. Based on the amount of games he has seen he should know that Konerko can't hold Swisher's jock at firstbase defensively. I like Konerko just as much as everybody else, but u have to be honest at some point.

People are allowed (even encouraged!) to have differing opinions. I think Swisher is better defensively at 1st base, too. But many intelligent baseball fans think the opposite.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:22 PM
I hate a team that has the 4th best record in the league and has had the divisional lead for the last TEN ****ING WEEKS.

Also, Sox only scored one run tonight.

:firewalker:

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:22 PM
I don't think PK's problem is "confidence" as much as it is getting enough reps in. I wish they'd have left him in Charlotte a bit longer to see more innings at 1B before bringing him back.

I don't think confidence has been his problem, either. I just don't think he looks confident right now, which is likely the reason he missed that throw. If he's in his normal state of mind, he's on his toes for that throw and adjusts to it. He just put himself in a bad position expecting the perfect throw.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:22 PM
Onda - you sure are consistent. That doesn't make you right - just consistent. :D:

I certainly don't blame ever loss on OG, but he blew tonight's game. Not putting your best defensive team out there when you are protecting a one run lead in the late innings, not bringing in a reliever at the first sign of trouble, while you've still got the lead. Those are both the manager's decisions. Ozzie managed this game poorly.

And to answer your obvious question: the first two games against Oakland.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:22 PM
Thank you. I did notice the sarcasm. Based on the amount of games he has seen he should know that Konerko can't hold Swisher's jock at firstbase defensively. I like Konerko just as much as everybody else, but u have to be honest at some point.

What does Swish do at 1B better than Konerko?

WhiteSoxOnly
07-10-2008, 10:23 PM
Bull****. It's a load of what-have-you-done-for-me-lately garbage.

Face it pal,we all love Paulie for what he has done,on that there is no doubt.
But there comes a time when he needs to be accountable for his horsedump play.It's July for chrissakes,how much longer can the team afford this ? he is
not performing plain and simple,if it's still because of injuries then DL yourself
and get out of the way until you're ready.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 10:23 PM
What does Swish do at 1B better than Konerko?

he's EXTREME, brah!

champagne030
07-10-2008, 10:24 PM
Ozzie deserves this one.

I think Ozzie blows as an "in game/lineup" manager, but I don't place the blame on him for this loss. You can question why our best defense of Anderson in CF and Swisher at 1B wasn't in the game, but it was the 8th inning of a 1 run game. Konerko was due to bat in the 9th and I don't fault Ozzie for leaving him in the game to get his AB before making the defensive switch if we're still leading going to the bottom of the 9th. Paulie takes this loss by himself.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:24 PM
Thank you. I did notice the sarcasm. Based on the amount of games he has seen he should know that Konerko can't hold Swisher's jock at firstbase defensively. I like Konerko just as much as everybody else, but u have to be honest at some point.


I understand the circumstance here, but are people here actually arguing over first base defense? There's a reason why guys like Omar Vizquel don't play there. It's not as vital to have good defense there. If you want to bench a guy because of one bad play on defense at first, you go right on ahead. I'll be sitting over here, you know, being more rational.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:24 PM
What does Swish do at 1B better than Konerko?

The swagger factor is definitely higher.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:24 PM
What does Swish do at 1B better than Konerko?

Picks the ball better, better range, can actually catch a ball thrown right to him, more athletic, what else do u want?

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:25 PM
Picks the ball better, better range, can actually catch a ball thrown right to him, more athletic, what else do u want?

better beard, better hair, better car, tighter abs, tighter ass, etc.

...
07-10-2008, 10:26 PM
Picks the ball better, better range, can actually catch a ball thrown right to him, more athletic, what else do u want?

Paul picks 'em with the best of them.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:26 PM
I certainly don't blame ever loss on OG, but he blew tonight's game. Not putting your best defensive team out there when you are protecting a one run lead in the late innings, not bringing in a reliever at the first sign of trouble, while you've still got the lead. Those are both the manager's decisions. Ozzie managed this game poorly.

And to answer your obvious question: the first two games against Oakland.

If he yanks the pitcher earlier, he is accused of burning his pen. If he pulls his lineup to put in defensive players, and the game goes extra innings, he's accused of wasting his chips too early.

I just feel like he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and you are using your incredible hindsight to evaluate today's managerial performance. If COULD have gone the other way very easy - where they scored 1 run, and this went to extra innings, and PK came up with a shot at winning the game, and outperformed what BA may have done... It's not outrageous to say that.

I still feel like Guillen (and Williams) gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. I'd rather blame the guys on the field if they ****ed up, and credit the opposition if they did well. In this case, you can do both.

thomas35forever
07-10-2008, 10:26 PM
What does Swish do at 1B better than Konerko?
The Worm, of course!:redneck

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:27 PM
I think Ozzie blows as an "in game/lineup" manager, but I don't place the blame on him for this loss. You can question why our best defense of Anderson in CF and Swisher at 1B wasn't in the game, but it was the 8th inning of a 1 run game. Konerko was due to bat in the 9th and I don't fault Ozzie for leaving him in the game to get his AB before making the defensive switch if we're still leading going to the bottom of the 9th. Paulie takes this loss by himself.


If I really wanted to leave Konerko in under that circumstance then I would have yanked Dye or Quentin, who had batted, moved Swish into left or right and put BA in center.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:27 PM
I understand the circumstance here, but are people here actually arguing over first base defense? There's a reason why guys like Omar Vizquel don't play there. It's not as vital to have good defense there. If you want to bench a guy because of one bad play on defense at first, you go right on ahead. I'll be sitting over here, you know, being more rational.

I know first base defense isnt worth arguing ormally, but this is different. Our first base defense affects our CF defense which is important. By playing Konerko at first, it hurts our D in CF. Thats what I have said from the beginning.

ilsox7
07-10-2008, 10:27 PM
better beard, better hair, better car, tighter abs, tighter ass, etc.

His organ donation card also lists his beard.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:28 PM
Face it pal,we all love Paulie for what he has done,on that there is no doubt.
But there comes a time when he needs to be accountable for his horsedump play.It's July for chrissakes,how much longer can the team afford this ? he is
not performing plain and simple,if it's still because of injuries then DL yourself
and get out of the way until you're ready.

Man, it's a good thing we got rid of Swisher for his first couple of months of horse**** play, too, right? And OC. And Alexei sucked at the start of the season, too. Crede sucked for a while...should I go on? I'll get right on emailing KW telling him he needs to cut these *******s loose.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:28 PM
Picks the ball better, better range, can actually catch a ball thrown right to him, more athletic, what else do u want?

What is Pks fielding pct over the last year or two? He also takes away a lot of doubles by ranging upwards--and he does get the glove up quickly.

Swisher ranges better to his right and can chase down bloops over his head better. But I think PK is better at the quick diving stab, right or left. I think both are very good at scooping low throws. Defensively I really think there is very little difference. But I could be wrong.

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 10:28 PM
I made it 3 pages into this thread.....then skipped right to the end.

I'm not sure I get some of the folks around here.......:scratch:

Mark pitched a fantastic game......they won the series...on the road no less.
Still in first.

Get a grip people, some of you react as if the Sox should go 162 - 0.

90 win is a good season yes? Still means you will lose 72 times!!!!!

Could we have won the game, sure, but guess what we lost it. It happens.

It's not like football where they would have to dwell on it for a week.

Get on a plane, go to Texas and take care of buisness. All I want to see is us win these series.

I love the White Sox, and I love watching & playing baseball....not good enough for the bigs, so I won't throw any of these guys under a bus. But keep in mind they are humuns not machines, the **** up just like you and I.

Get a grip people, still a half a season of baseball to go! We're looking good.

hi im skot
07-10-2008, 10:29 PM
If I really wanted to leave Konerko in under that circumstance then I would have yanked Dye or Quentin, who had batted, moved Swish into left or right and put BA in center.

:o:

kobo
07-10-2008, 10:30 PM
What makes you think Konerko rushed back?
Well, he either rushed back or he didn't get enough time in at Charlotte. Either way, he looks rusty right now and the Sox can't afford to be using someone who isn't 100%. I hope he shows some improvement this weekend and then uses the break to refocus mentally and comes back on a tear.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2008, 10:30 PM
Mark deserved a better fate but he didn't get a whole hell of a lot of help this evening.

Still they took 2 of 3 and the lead is still up to 2 1/2 over Minnesota.

If they can take 2 of 3 from Texas, it'll be a very successful trip.

Lip

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:31 PM
If he yanks the pitcher earlier, he is accused of burning his pen. If he pulls his lineup to put in defensive players, and the game goes extra innings, he's accused of wasting his chips too early.

I just feel like he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and you are using your incredible hindsight to evaluate today's managerial performance. If COULD have gone the other way very easy - where they scored 1 run, and this went to extra innings, and PK came up with a shot at winning the game, and outperformed what BA may have done... It's not outrageous to say that.

I still feel like Guillen (and Williams) gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. I'd rather blame the guys on the field if they ****ed up, and credit the opposition if they did well. In this case, you can do both.

Yes, he will be blamed for every move by some here. Good post.

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:31 PM
What does Swish do at 1B better than Konerko?

Why do we have this idea that Konerko is a great firstbaseman? He's always been solid. He's always made the plays, and never ****ed up (little different this year, but he's been solid throughout his career). He's never shown great ability, though.

Swisher can do everything Konerko can. Add the range and athletic ability, and he's undoubtedly a better defender than Konerko. Swisher trumps Konerko with his God-given talents. I love Paulie, but solid is about all he's ever been.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:32 PM
If he yanks the pitcher earlier, he is accused of burning his pen. If he pulls his lineup to put in defensive players, and the game goes extra innings, he's accused of wasting his chips too early.

I just feel like he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and you are using your incredible hindsight to evaluate today's managerial performance. If COULD have gone the other way very easy - where they scored 1 run, and this went to extra innings, and PK came up with a shot at winning the game, and outperformed what BA may have done... It's not outrageous to say that.

I still feel like Guillen (and Williams) gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. I'd rather blame the guys on the field if they ****ed up, and credit the opposition if they did well. In this case, you can do both.

Do you really for a second think the points I have been making for this entire season are so wishy-washy?

I have consistently argued that Ozzie is slow to pull his starting pitcher, especially in close games (and 1-0 is a close game in my book.) It's not incredible hindsight, it's living within managerial maxims.

Close game, late, never get your starting pitcher the loss.

Oddly, I've heard that maxim in three other languages one of which Ozzie supposedly speaks.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:32 PM
Why do we have this idea that Konerko is a great firstbaseman? He's always been solid. He's always made the plays, and never ****ed up (little different this year, but he's been solid throughout his career). He's never shown great ability, though.

Swisher can do everything Konerko can. Add the range and athletic ability, and he's undoubtedly a better defender than Konerko. Swisher trumps Konerko with his God-given talents. I love Paulie, but solid is about all he's ever been.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:32 PM
I made it 3 pages into this thread.....then skipped right to the end.

I'm not sure I get some of the folks around here.......:scratch:

Mark pitched a fantastic game......they won the series...on the road no less.
Still in first.

Get a grip people, some of you react as if the Sox should go 162 - 0.

90 win is a good season yes? Still means you will lose 72 times!!!!!

Could we have won the game, sure, but guess what we lost it. It happens.

It's not like football where they would have to dwell on it for a week.

Get on a plane, go to Texas and take care of buisness. All I want to see is us win these series.

I love the White Sox, and I love watching & playing baseball....not good enough for the bigs, so I won't throw any of these guys under a bus. But keep in mind they are humuns not machines, the **** up just like you and I.

Get a grip people, still a half a season of baseball to go! We're looking good.

Way too rational and way too optimistic for this board. You're banned, my friend.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:33 PM
Picks the ball better

That's just not true

better range

Range on a 1B is nearly as important as feathers on a fish. How many extra balls does Nick get to over 162 games?

can actually catch a ball thrown right to him

So can PK. And quite well actually. Picking ONE error out of over 11,500 chances to draw a conclusion doesn't bolster your arguement much.

, more athletic, what else do u want?


Something more relevant to playing 1B

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:33 PM
Why do we have this idea that Konerko is a great firstbaseman? He's always been solid. He's always made the plays, and never ****ed up (little different this year, but he's been solid throughout his career). He's never shown great ability, though.

Swisher can do everything Konerko can. Add the range and athletic ability, and he's undoubtedly a better defender than Konerko. Swisher trumps Konerko with his God-given talents. I love Paulie, but solid is about all he's ever been.

If Swisher shaved or drove a Hyundai, you would be singing a different tune.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:35 PM
That's just not true



Range on a 1B is nearly as important as feathers on a fish. How many extra balls does Nick get to over 162 games?



So can PK. And quite well actually. Picking ONE error out of over 11,500 chances to draw a conclusion doesn't bolster your arguement much.



Something more relevant to playing 1B

I give up some of u people are too wrapped up in Paulie. So what is the point. **** it!!!

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:36 PM
Do you really for a second think the points I have been making for this entire season are so wishy-washy?

I have consistently argued that Ozzie is slow to pull his starting pitcher, especially in close games (and 1-0 is a close game in my book.) It's not incredible hindsight, it's living within managerial maxims.

Close game, late, never get your starting pitcher the loss.

Oddly, I've heard that maxim in three other languages one of which Ozzie supposedly speaks.

MB was cruising. It is not a maxim to remove your starter when he is dealing and throwing a shutout even if it is a slim lead. He should have been out of the inning.Konerko dropped the ball. This is NOT Ozzie's fault.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:36 PM
I give up some of u people are too wrapped up in Paulie. So what is the point. **** it!!!

PK made one bad play. One bad play. And they're too wrapped up in something? Get over yourself.

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:37 PM
If Swisher shaved or drove a Hyundai, you would be singing a different tune.

Probably.

:happybday

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:37 PM
Do you really for a second think the points I have been making for this entire season are so wishy-washy?

I have consistently argued that Ozzie is slow to pull his starting pitcher, especially in close games (and 1-0 is a close game in my book.) It's not incredible hindsight, it's living within managerial maxims.

Close game, late, never get your starting pitcher the loss.

Oddly, I've heard that maxim in three other languages one of which Ozzie supposedly speaks.

No - not wishy washy at all. I believe you believe them very much. I just believe that one with the same knowledge of the game as you could watch the same events and draw different conclusions. I believe you are firmly committed to your position about OG and about his decisions. I just believe that your position is only one of multiple that is/can be correct.

This is not about right and wrong. It is about how sometimes stuff just happens. If OG would have done what you suggest, it could have easily backfired - or easily succeeded.

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 10:37 PM
Way too rational and way too optimistic for this board. You're banned, my friend.

:gulp: Sweet! :gulp:

This forum needs to be renamed or have the word Sybil mixed in somehow...:redneck

Craig Grebeck
07-10-2008, 10:38 PM
So what is the point of letting Konerko rot on the bench?

WhiteSoxOnly
07-10-2008, 10:39 PM
Man, it's a good thing we got rid of Swisher for his first couple of months of horse**** play, too, right? And OC. And Alexei sucked at the start of the season, too. Crede sucked for a while...should I go on? I'll get right on emailing KW telling him he needs to cut these *******s loose.

I get the slow starts thing,it happens often and probably to everybody at some point...but it's July now and those guys you named have all gotten it going,some more than others.Paulie hasn't and it's getting damn close to the time of year where he better or else Oz will be forced to go a different way.
If his average slides the wrong way,then what ?

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:39 PM
MB was cruising. It is not a maxim to remove your starter when he is dealing and throwing a shutout even if it is a slim lead. He should have been out of the inning.Konerko dropped the ball. This is NOT Ozzie's fault.

It can only be viewed as Ozzie's fault in that he has stated publicly several times that if his starter is dealing, he won't hank him. But is this really a bad policy?

"I don't want to put him in a position for a loss! I better pull him!"

:rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2008, 10:39 PM
He tried, just not very hard.

The ball tailed on him, but Konerko makes the play 99.9999999999999999999999% of the time. Usually he puts himself in a better position, but he really ****ed that one up.

Again, he looks lost out there. Does not look confident at the plate or on the field.

A rib injury is a serious injury to come back from. You literally have to let it heal on its own, and it takes a good 2 weeks to do so, and that's with rest and taking it easy and trying not to put any kind of pressure/strain on that side of your body. It's possible PK still isn't 100%, and if he isn't, he's not going to get better playing baseball every day. I wish they would have held him back until after the break.

Then that's stupid on the White Sox part for letting him come back. We were playing fine without him, there was no need for Konerko to rush back.

If this is the case (that he's not ready), then he should have sat out the rest of the first half, and just came back next Friday.

Agree. With the way the team was playing I really thought they were going to wait to bring him back.

I don't think PK's problem is "confidence" as much as it is getting enough reps in. I wish they'd have left him in Charlotte a bit longer to see more innings at 1B before bringing him back.

I got flamed by several people for suggesting that Paulie should not come back until after the All-Star break, just to make sure he had enough time to heal, rehab, play the field, and get his timing back. One poster even tried bating me into an argument about what I previously had written about Paulie.

Hey, we won two out of three on the road against a division foe, albeit a pretty bad one.

This game demonstrates the value of good defense. Maybe it will make an impression upon the those who are terminally obsessed with offensive stats.

Not everything that is good - like defense - is easily quantified, but tonight it's pretty clear that bad defense led to four Royals runs and one Sox loss.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:39 PM
MB was cruising. It is not a maxim to remove your starter when he is dealing and throwing a shutout even if it is a slim lead. He should have been out of the inning.Konerko dropped the ball. This is NOT Ozzie's fault.

Not to mention that a ton of people on here were bitching earlier in the year when Ozzie pulled his starter (it was either Javy or MB) late in the game to give the ball to Dotel, who promptly lost the game. I think it was in the first Cubs series. Apparantly Ozzie is the reason we lose every game.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:40 PM
So what is the point of letting Konerko rot on the bench?

So we can blame Ozzie when Swisher makes an error at 1B.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:40 PM
PK made one bad play. One bad play. And they're too wrapped up in something? Get over yourself.

What do i have to get over...im stating the obvious. Yes ONE bad play, a play that Swisher would have made easily, and a play that cost us the game. I'm not saying they are too wrapped up because of this ONE play. I'm saying you cant say one bad thing on this forum about Konerko without people going crazy.

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 10:41 PM
BA would have had that ball Paulie dropped :happybday

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:41 PM
I give up some of u people are too wrapped up in Paulie. So what is the point. **** it!!!

I'm not wrapped up in anything. But I've heard this arguement before...

Defense at 1B....

It is a silly arguement because over the course of a 162 game season it has very little impact.

If you want to argue that PK is done and can't hit, and won't ever hit again, step up and make that arguement. But if your case is that we need to replace PK with Nick for defensive purposes and that this is a difference maker, then I don't get it. Paul dropped one ball. It's a play he makes 99.9999% of the time. Paul has become an average defensive 1B - which makes him no worse than Nick, and not measurably worse than the value that 75th percentile 1B is over the course of 162.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:42 PM
It can only be viewed as Ozzie's fault in that he has stated publicly several times that if his starter is dealing, he won't hank him. But is this really a bad policy?

"I don't want to put him in a position for a loss! I better pull him!"

:rolleyes:

Every time? I don't think so.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:42 PM
Not everything that is good - like defense - is easily quantified, but tonight it's pretty clear that bad defense led to four Royals runs and one Sox loss.

I hope the Royals enjoy those four runs when they are rotting on their lawn mowers in October whilst the Sox are in the postseason.

:superman:

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:43 PM
I get the slow starts thing,it happens often and probably to everybody at some point...but it's July now and those guys you named have all gotten it going,some more than others.Paulie hasn't and it's getting damn close to the time of year where he better or else Oz will be forced to go a different way.
If his average slides the wrong way,then what ?

Ozzie won't be forced to do anything. If it were up to guys like you, Dye would have been gone after last year. Nobody was hitting back then...but someone's got to do something!

People go into slumps. Sometimes they last a long time.

It's Dankerific
07-10-2008, 10:43 PM
Wow. what a game thread. Lets burn the people that think PK lost this game. They are obviously witches. you CAN have opposing viewpoints without the other person being an idiot...

I like the posts that said "its not PK's fault, we only scored 1 run, thats why we lost." well.... what could be a contributing factor to scoring only one run.. hmmm.... thats a tough one.

I'm completely with the people who have said you can't flip out over stretches of poor play. But this is JULY folks.. JULY. 1st base is supposed to be a + Offensive position. The trading deadline is 3 weeks away, if that gives you a clue as to how far into the season we are.

Personally, I'm not convinced PK has "it" anymore. I hope he goes balls out awesome the rest of the way. (I'd even settle for average production from an AL 1st baseman the rest of the way...)

I'd be alot less upset about that play at first if PK had moved on the bag a bit when the ball was coming. standing there like a statue (even after the ball glanced of his glove.. *** was that?)

Finally, I hate the excuse that PK has been hurt this year thats why he's been a poor performer. I said a looong time ago, if he's hurt, he shouldnt play. He's not giving us a gutsy low .200s batting average. If hes hurt, heal up, come back strong. If he's just been bad for half the year, I'd like to know what magical faerie dust is going to be sprinkled on him to get him to his career numbers. (when would be nice too..)

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:44 PM
I get the slow starts thing,it happens often and probably to everybody at some point...but it's July now and those guys you named have all gotten it going,some more than others.Paulie hasn't and it's getting damn close to the time of year where he better or else Oz will be forced to go a different way.
If his average slides the wrong way,then what ?

It's not even a slow start with Paulie; he's been battling injuries all year. He had the hand problem earlier (maybe it's still bothering him) that he played through while the rest of the offense was complete crap as well. Now he's got the oblique problem.

If we can keep him healthy, he'll be fine. His career isn't over. People said the same thing about Thome when he was hitting just above the Mendoza line...he looks alright to me now. :dunno:

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:45 PM
Every time? I don't think so.

"These sheep organs and beans shaped like Jimmy Carter told me I should pull my starter."

rustysurf83
07-10-2008, 10:45 PM
PK made one bad play. One bad play. And they're too wrapped up in something? Get over yourself.


I have to agree. Paulie made a bad play, yes probably because he got a little lackadaisical....I think thats somewhat understandable. If you don't find it understandable; review this post at 3:45 tomorrow when you're supposed to being doing something meaningful at work. I am willing to be your bosses would be bitching worse than we all are right now.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2008, 10:45 PM
Just a question.

As stated earlier Mark didn't get a lot of help tonight but how much, if any, responsibility does he bear for not pitching past Konerko's error?

I remember reading earlier this season when these things happened to him a few times that he said for some reason, the errors have been affecting him more. He couldn't really explain it.

Lip

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:45 PM
No - not wishy washy at all. I believe you believe them very much. I just believe that one with the same knowledge of the game as you could watch the same events and draw different conclusions. I believe you are firmly committed to your position about OG and about his decisions. I just believe that your position is only one of multiple that is/can be correct.

This is not about right and wrong. It is about how sometimes stuff just happens. If OG would have done what you suggest, it could have easily backfired - or easily succeeded.


I'm not saying it couldn't have backfired, but the best managers keep putting their team in the best position to win every game possible.

Sometimes you get blown out. Sometimes you can't buy a hit. But Trey Hillman burned a couple of relievers when Greinke could have gone longer to keep things from getting worse. Why? Because he thought his guys had a chance to get to Buehrle eventually. Nobody last forever and MB wasn't totally dominating. He was going well but not spotless. Hillman got his team this win by not leaving Greinke out there too long.

In a close game, as soon as they might be rallying bring somebody fresh in to shut them down. Could that guy fail miserably? Sure. But I'd rather you proved you could beat a good reliever than rally against a tiring starter. Seven innings is a solid outing in my book.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:46 PM
review this post at 3:45 tomorrow when you're supposed to being doing something meaningful at work. I am willing to be your bosses would be bitching worse than we all are right now.

I am the boss.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:47 PM
Wow. what a game thread. Lets burn the people that think PK lost this game. They are obviously witches. you CAN have opposing viewpoints without the other person being an idiot...

I like the posts that said "its not PK's fault, we only scored 1 run, thats why we lost." well.... what could be a contributing factor to scoring only one run.. hmmm.... thats a tough one.

I'm completely with the people who have said you can't flip out over stretches of poor play. But this is JULY folks.. JULY. 1st base is supposed to be a + Offensive position. The trading deadline is 3 weeks away, if that gives you a clue as to how far into the season we are.

Personally, I'm not convinced PK has "it" anymore. I hope he goes balls out awesome the rest of the way. (I'd even settle for average production from an AL 1st baseman the rest of the way...)

I'd be alot less upset about that play at first if PK had moved on the bag a bit when the ball was coming. standing there like a statue (even after the ball glanced of his glove.. *** was that?)

Finally, I hate the excuse that PK has been hurt this year thats why he's been a poor performer. I said a looong time ago, if he's hurt, he shouldnt play. He's not giving us a gutsy low .200s batting average. If hes hurt, heal up, come back strong. If he's just been bad for half the year, I'd like to know what magical faerie dust is going to be sprinkled on him to get him to his career numbers. (when would be nice too..)

Mabe I missed something but I think most of the defense of PK here tonight is not on that play--which obviously cost the Sox the game-- but rather people are debating whether he should be benched or not. I think not but he does have to get it going soon.

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:47 PM
I have to agree. Paulie made a bad play, yes probably because he got a little lackadaisical....I think thats somewhat understandable. If you don't find it understandable; review this post at 3:45 tomorrow when you're supposed to being doing something meaningful at work. I am willing to be your bosses would be bitching worse than we all are right now.

I can get away with it. I just graduated fron Eastern Illinois and still looking for a job!!!! :D:

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:49 PM
Just a question.

As stated earlier Mark didn't get a lot of help tonight but how much, if any, responsibility does he bear for not pitching past Konerko's error?

I remember reading earlier this season when these things happened to him a few times that he said for some reason, the errors have been affecting him more. He couldn't really explain it.

Lip

I think he did bail OC out earlier.

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:49 PM
Just a question.

As stated earlier Mark didn't get a lot of help tonight but how much, if any, responsibility does he bear for not pitching past Konerko's error?

I remember reading earlier this season when these things happened to him a few times that he said for some reason, the errors have been affecting him more. He couldn't really explain it.

Lip

See below - should answer your Q. Mark was pulled with one run in. Dotel and Boone allowed the other 3 in. Mark didn't get much a chance to pitch over it.



Bottom 8th: Kansas City - J. Buck singled to left - J. Gathright ran for J. Buck - D. DeJesus grounded into fielder's choice, J. Gathright out at second - M. Aviles doubled to deep left, D. DeJesus scored - O. Dotel relieved M. Buehrle - M. Grudzielanek popped out to first - J. Guillen doubled to deep center, M. Aviles scored - B. Logan relieved O. Dotel - M. Teahen hit an inside the park home run to deep center, J. Guillen scored - A. Gordon struck out swinging

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 10:49 PM
On SportsNite, they showed Pauie talking in the clubhouse after the game. You can see a reporter writing something on a yellow legal pad with a YELLOW highlighter.

Further proof that everything Konerko is irrelevant.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:49 PM
What do i have to get over...im stating the obvious. Yes ONE bad play, a play that Swisher would have made easily, and a play that cost us the game. I'm not saying they are too wrapped up because of this ONE play. I'm saying you cant say one bad thing on this forum about Konerko without people going crazy.

You're acting like you saw that play coming, or that anyone could have seen it coming. Konerko's defense is more than adequate at first, so bitching about who should have been playing there because of one play is just stupid. And I don't care if you criticize Konerko, it's when all of a sudden everyone thinks good player X sucks because of what happened that day, or when bad player Y is awesome because he made a play during one apperance in one game.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2008, 10:50 PM
PK obviously failed to execute by failing to catch the throw. Swisher seemingly also failed to execute by letting a ball get over his head for an inside-the-park home run. (I did not witness either so I cannot say for sure; I'm relying on the witness testimony of others.)

Like it or not Ozzie is the one in charge of putting players at their defensive positions. Therefore, if the defense fails, Ozzie deserves some measure of responsibility, just like he deserved some responsibility for the consequences of putting Mackowiak in CF in 2006. I do not think it makes Ozzie a bad manager. But he's not perfect and his recognition of the importance of late-game defense is one thing he needs to improve.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:51 PM
On SportsNite, they showed Pauie talking in the clubhouse after the game. You can see a reporter writing something on a yellow legal pad with a YELLOW highlighter.

Further proof that everything Konerko is irrelevant.

Or perhaps that sportswriters are ****wits?

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:52 PM
I'm not saying it couldn't have backfired, but the best managers keep putting their team in the best position to win every game possible.

Sometimes you get blown out. Sometimes you can't buy a hit. But Trey Hillman burned a couple of relievers when Greinke could have gone longer to keep things from getting worse. Why? Because he thought his guys had a chance to get to Buehrle eventually. Nobody last forever and MB wasn't totally dominating. He was going well but not spotless. Hillman got his team this win by not leaving Greinke out there too long.

In a close game, as soon as they might be rallying bring somebody fresh in to shut them down. Could that guy fail miserably? Sure. But I'd rather you proved you could beat a good reliever than rally against a tiring starter. Seven innings is a solid outing in my book.

So where would you have pulled him? Before the start of the 8th? 4 hits, 1 run and 8 Ks, coming off of a 1,2,3 inning? I'm just not sure where you are saying you'd have done things differently and why that's so definitely right and why letting him face the first few hitters in the 8th was a bad idea. He gave up a hit, got a FC, then a double, then got pulled. Where should Guillen have pulled him in your eyes?

oeo
07-10-2008, 10:52 PM
On SportsNite, they showed Pauie talking in the clubhouse after the game. You can see a reporter writing something on a yellow legal pad with a YELLOW highlighter.

Good eye, I did not see that.

Maybe that's why they never report anything correctly. :dunno:

soxsidesoxfan
07-10-2008, 10:53 PM
Two KC fly balls got down in center that Brian Anderson would have put in his pocket...

Konerko misplays a throw to open up a big inning and sink Buehrle and the Sox.

I know there are a few fans that don't like Brian or think he will never get better at hitting, but so what? They are wrong about his potential as a hitter and underestimate his value on defense. They also underestimate the value of Swisher as a First baseman.
Konerko should share DH with Thome , alternating against RH/LH. Anderson should be in Center for most games. If Anderson cannot hit over .230 like Swisher has, then get another damn Center fielder. Center is too important to have Swisher out there trying to figure out how he can cover territory and catch balls that his legs can't take him to fast enough. So this brings the Anderson issue full circle, back to Konerko, the Swisher trade and the question "who's on first?" NOT who should play Center. That HAS to be the only guy we have that CAN play it like a Pro.

PeteWard
07-10-2008, 10:54 PM
Well, I would like to change the mood here before signing off by looking ahead. Texas has burned four relievers and is still playing.

Here's to 2 of 3 at least on the weekend. :gulp:

soxfandy
07-10-2008, 10:54 PM
You're acting like you saw that play coming, or that anyone could have seen it coming. Konerko's defense is more than adequate at first, so bitching about who should have been playing there because of one play is just stupid. And I don't care if you criticize Konerko, it's when all of a sudden everyone thinks good player X sucks because of what happened that day, or when bad player Y is awesome because he made a play during one apperance in one game.

Supposed good player X (Konerko) has sucked all year. Look at his stats. Not to mention THIS year he is the king of the double play ground ball. He has ruined a ton of scoring opportunities. I want to see him back to his old self, but it is taking a long time. It is the all-star break and he has given us absolutely nothing. I hope his second half is different so that u can bash me on here!!

jabrch
07-10-2008, 10:54 PM
Two KC fly balls got down in center that Brian Anderson would have put in his pocket...

That's a stretch, isn't it?

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 10:55 PM
Two KC fly balls got down in center that Brian Anderson would have put in his pocket...

Konerko misplays a throw to open up a big inning and sink Buehrle and the Sox.

I know there are a few fans that don't like Brian or think he will never get better at hitting, but so what? They are wrong about his potential as a hitter and underestimate his value on defense. They also underestimate the value of Swisher as a First baseman.
Konerko should share DH with Thome , alternating against RH/KH. Anderson should be in Center for most games. If Anderson cannot hit over .230 like Swisher has, then get another damn Center fielder. Center is too important to have Swisher out there trying to figure out how he can cover territory and catch balls that his legs can't take him to fast enough. So this brings the Anderson issue full circle, back to Konerko, the Swisher trade and the question "who's on first?" NOT who should play Center. That HAS to be the only guy we have that CAN play it like a Pro.

I'm so tired of arguing this...just go back and read like the last five pages on here.

KyWhiSoxFan
07-10-2008, 10:55 PM
This is not a one-half seasons slump for Konerko. His numbers have steadily declined the last four yeras, and precipitously the last 12 months.

In the last two months of 2007, Konerko batted .241, with 43 hits in 178 ABs, with 9 HRs and 29 RBIs.

In the first 3+ months of 2008, he is batting .213, with 51 hits in 239 ABS, with 8 HRs and 31 RBIs.

Taken in total over the last two months of 2007 together with 2008, he is batting .225. In 2008, he is hitting one HR per 29.875 ABs.

In 2005, he hit one HR every 14.375 ABs. His RBIs per AB is also falling off.

You can easily make a case that he should not be on the field and the team is better off with him on the bench.

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 10:56 PM
Two KC fly balls got down in center that Brian Anderson would have put in his pocket...


I hope you are not talking about those 2 balls in the 8th inning....Anderson wouldn't have caught either of those unless he had a rocket up his ass!

Come on people :rolleyes:

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:56 PM
So where would you have pulled him? Before the start of the 8th? 4 hits, 1 run and 8 Ks, coming off of a 1,2,3 inning? I'm just not sure where you are saying you'd have done things differently and why that's so definitely right and why letting him face the first few hitters in the 8th was a bad idea. He gave up a hit, got a FC, then a double, then got pulled. Where should Guillen have pulled him in your eyes?

I would have pulled him after the first hit in the 8th. In the worst case (that man scores), MB would get an ND. In the best case, Dotel comes in gives up an FC or maybe a GIDP and doesn't face a 'man at second, no room for error, situation' Does the double happen? If it does it means Dotel gets the loss.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2008, 10:57 PM
This is not a one-half seasons slump for Konerko. His numbers have steadily declined the last four yeras, and precipitously the last 12 months.

In the last two months of 2007, Konerko batted .241, with 43 hits in 178 ABs, with 9 HRs and 29 RBIs.

In the first 3+ months of 2008, he is batting .213, with 51 hits in 239 ABS, with 8 HRs and 31 RBIs.

Taken in total over the last two months of 2007 together with 2008, he is batting .225. In 2008, he is hitting one HR per 29.875 ABs.

In 2005, he hit one HR every 14.375 ABs. His RBIs per AB is also falling off.

You can easily make a case that he should not be on the field and the team is better off with him on the bench.

I hope this is just an extended slump, in part due to injuries. The way you are portraying it makes it seem more like a disturbing trend, though.

rustysurf83
07-10-2008, 10:58 PM
That's a stretch, isn't it?


I think the spelling threw you off he meant GOD (aka BA)

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 10:58 PM
PK obviously failed to execute by failing to catch the throw. Swisher seemingly also failed to execute by letting a ball get over his head for an inside-the-park home run. (I did not witness either so I cannot say for sure; I'm relying on the witness testimony of others.)

Like it or not Ozzie is the one in charge of putting players at their defensive positions. Therefore, if the defense fails, Ozzie deserves some measure of responsibility, just like he deserved some responsibility for the consequences of putting Mackowiak in CF in 2006. I do not think it makes Ozzie a bad manager. But he's not perfect and his recognition of the importance of late-game defense is one thing he needs to improve.

There are things Ozzie is very good at. I agree about late-inning defense and I'd add, when to pull the SP.

cheezheadsoxfan
07-10-2008, 10:58 PM
This game demonstrates the value of good defense. Maybe it will make an impression upon the those who are terminally obsessed with offensive stats.

Not everything that is good - like defense - is easily quantified, but tonight it's pretty clear that bad defense led to four Royals runs and one Sox loss.

One can only hope.

DickAllen72
07-10-2008, 10:59 PM
What's frustrating about Konerko is that on Tuesday, his first day back from the DL, he looked good at the plate with some quality AB's and a good approach. Then the next two nights he looks like horse**** again.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 11:00 PM
I hope you are not talking about those 2 balls in the 8th inning....Anderson wouldn't have caught either of those unless he had a rocket up his ass!

Come on people :rolleyes:

Anderson is considerably faster than Swish and BA takes better routes to balls. Does that mean he gets to them, I don't know. But if he got to either of them it makes the chance of winning in the ninth that much better.

It's Dankerific
07-10-2008, 11:01 PM
Two KC fly balls got down in center that Brian Anderson would have put in his pocket...



That's a stretch, isn't it?


I think one of the balls BA gets to normally. One of the balls, it would have depended if he remembered to put on his superman underoos. It wasn't a "guaranteed" out, but a spectacular play may have been made.

I can't blame Swish, he does his best out there. He's gotta play where they tell him to. Except for the ground ball out of the infield that turned into the double. he should have ran for that until he sees the 2nd baseman get to it. That run didnt score though.

Just seemed to be alot of laziness out there tonight, by lots of people. (but not one MB, you got the win as far as I'm concerned! =) )

JB98
07-10-2008, 11:03 PM
Two KC fly balls got down in center that Brian Anderson would have put in his pocket...

Konerko misplays a throw to open up a big inning and sink Buehrle and the Sox.

I know there are a few fans that don't like Brian or think he will never get better at hitting, but so what? They are wrong about his potential as a hitter and underestimate his value on defense. They also underestimate the value of Swisher as a First baseman.
Konerko should share DH with Thome , alternating against RH/LH. Anderson should be in Center for most games. If Anderson cannot hit over .230 like Swisher has, then get another damn Center fielder. Center is too important to have Swisher out there trying to figure out how he can cover territory and catch balls that his legs can't take him to fast enough. So this brings the Anderson issue full circle, back to Konerko, the Swisher trade and the question "who's on first?" NOT who should play Center. That HAS to be the only guy we have that CAN play it like a Pro.

Maybe one, but not two.

itsnotrequired
07-10-2008, 11:04 PM
This is not a one-half seasons slump for Konerko. His numbers have steadily declined the last four yeras, and precipitously the last 12 months.

In the last two months of 2007, Konerko batted .241, with 43 hits in 178 ABs, with 9 HRs and 29 RBIs.

In the first 3+ months of 2008, he is batting .213, with 51 hits in 239 ABS, with 8 HRs and 31 RBIs.

Taken in total over the last two months of 2007 together with 2008, he is batting .225. In 2008, he is hitting one HR per 29.875 ABs.

In 2005, he hit one HR every 14.375 ABs. His RBIs per AB is also falling off.

You can easily make a case that he should not be on the field and the team is better off with him on the bench.

The Selective Stat game! My favorite!

In Sept/Oct of 2006, Konerko hit .344/.402/.600! In that same span in 2005, he hit .336/.425/.617! .313/.409/.667 in July of 2007!

Blueprint1
07-10-2008, 11:05 PM
Konerko misses a ball at first base and that is why we lost the game? I don't know if you guys watched the same game as me but we scored one run. That's not going to win you many games.

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 11:05 PM
I think one of the balls BA gets to normally. One of the balls, it would have depended if he remembered to put on his superman underoos. It wasn't a "guaranteed" out, but a spectacular play may have been made.

I can't blame Swish, he does his best out there. He's gotta play where they tell him to.

Oh my god, another rational poster who gets it!

:gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2008, 11:06 PM
There are things Ozzie is very good at. I agree about late-inning defense and I'd add, when to pull the SP.

I think Ozzie is a great motivator, a great "players' manager," great at fostering clubhouse chemistry, and is great at distracting negative attention from his players.

I also think he does not understand the importance of outfield defense, is wedded to lefty-righty bullpen matchups, is locked into bullpen roles, is impatient with encouraging/developing/coaching young players, plays favorites (especially among players who hit like he did), makes some questionable lineup decisions, and is sometimes wrong about knowing when to pull the starter.

The first paragraph cannot be taught or learned, and it may be the more important part of managing. The second paragraph can be learned, if he's willing to talk less and listen more.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2008, 11:07 PM
Konerko misses a ball at first base and that is why we lost the game? I don't know if you guys watched the same game as me but we scored one run. That's not going to win you many games.

But, but... 2005! Grinding...and such! Swagger!

soxsidesoxfan
07-10-2008, 11:07 PM
I hope you are not talking about those 2 balls in the 8th inning....Anderson wouldn't have caught either of those unless he had a rocket up his ass!

Nice talk there, but that is all it is and you are plum wrong.
The reason Brian would have gotten to each of those balls without a rocket, as you suggest, is simple. He would not have been playing as shallow as Swisher played because he has a stronger throwing arm than Swisher (by a long shot), because he is much faster than bow-legged Swisher, because he gets better jumps on fly balls, and because he is better at positioning himself as a career Center fielder.
The reason Swisher would have caught the ball at First which would finished a DP and changed the 8th inning for Buehrle, is that Swisher has made all the plays on throws like that.....and the throw was not a bad one at all.
This game was lost on defense, plain and simple.

champagne030
07-10-2008, 11:09 PM
Maybe one, but not two.

I don't think Ozzie should've pulled PK in the 8th, but I do believe that Anderson would have had a good chance at catching the hit by Guillen and then it's 3 outs and no runs if Walnuts makes a routine catch.

Anyway, Paulie lost the game, move on and learn from our mistakes.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 11:11 PM
I think Ozzie is a great motivator, a great "players' manager," great at fostering clubhouse chemistry, and is great at distracting negative attention from his players.

I also think he does not understand the importance of outfield defense, is wedded to lefty-righty bullpen matchups, is locked into bullpen roles, is impatient with encouraging/developing/coaching young players, plays favorites (especially among players who hit like he did), makes some questionable lineup decisions, and is sometimes wrong about knowing when to pull the starter.

The first paragraph cannot be taught or learned, and it may be the more important part of managing. The second paragraph can be learned, if he's willing to talk less and listen more.

Agreed on your third para but I would move, great at fostering clubhouse chemistry from first to second para. Maybe not learned in quite the same way, but certainly improved on. If you ever read Phil Jackson, he talked about learning to do it (in basketball, but still relevant) better.

voodoochile
07-10-2008, 11:12 PM
Or perhaps that sportswriters are ****wits?


No that's the pre-filled legal pad with quotes from Bull Durham interviews already typed in. All the reporter has to do is highlight the relevant quotes as the player spews them.

ondafarm
07-10-2008, 11:13 PM
No that's the pre-filled legal pad with quotes from Bull Durham interviews already typed in. All the reporter has to do is highlight the relevant quotes as the player spews them.

My nominee for POTW.

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 11:14 PM
Nice talk there, but that is all it is and you are plum wrong.
The reason Brian would have gotten to each of those balls without a rocket, as you suggest, is simple. He would not have been playing as shallow as Swisher played because he has a stronger throwing arm than Swisher (by a long shot), because he is much faster than bow-legged Swisher, because he gets better jumps on fly balls, and because he is better at positioning himself as a career Center fielder.
The reason Swisher would have caught the ball at First which would finished a DP and changed the 8th inning for Buehrle, is that Swisher has made all the plays on throws like that.....and the throw was not a bad one at all.
This game was lost on defense, plain and simple.

So you know all this for a fact then right?

Please tell me tomorrows winning lotery numbers :tongue:

Jeckle2000
07-10-2008, 11:14 PM
It's scary how many people are ready to just get rid of Paulie right now... He's been back from the DL a whole three days! He's only 32 years old! His career is not over! Honestly the overreactions are just amazing me!

voodoochile
07-10-2008, 11:15 PM
Maybe one, but not two.

Might as well give that one up. If JD played for the Royals, the FOBAs would be telling you his HR would have been a routine out with BA patrolling CF...

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2008, 11:15 PM
Agreed on your third para but I would move, great at fostering clubhouse chemistry from first to second para. Maybe not learned in quite the same way, but certainly improved on. If you ever read Phil Jackson, he talked about learning to do it (in basketball, but still relevant) better.

Fair enough and I won't dispute the point.

I'm more concerned about what Ozzie still can (or needs to) learn. Clearly he already knows how to foster clubhouse chemistry (whether he learned it or is a "natural"). He already seems to be a pretty good leader; I just want him to get better at the tactical/"managerial" issues.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2008, 11:16 PM
Might as well give that one up. If JD played for the Royals, the FOBAs would be telling you his HR would have been a routine out with BA patrolling CF...

Now who's resorting to pure hyperbole? :tongue:

Lip Man 1
07-10-2008, 11:17 PM
Two other oddities about this series:

1. In all three games the team that was behind rallied to take the lead in the 8th inning.

2. This is only the 4th game this season the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning and wound up losing the game. A stunning turnaround from what was happening on a regular basis in 2006 and 2007. If you are looking for a single reason why the Sox are where they are right now, that's it. When they get a lead, they generally keep it and win games.

Lip

Cuck the Fubs
07-10-2008, 11:17 PM
Might as well give that one up. If JD played for the Royals, the FOBAs would be telling you his HR would have been a routine out with BA patrolling CF...

With or without the rocket in his ass?

That was post made me laugh out loud!:bandance:

voodoochile
07-10-2008, 11:20 PM
Now who's resorting to pure hyperbole? :tongue:

Have you actually read this turd of a thread? I have... every freaking post. Unfortunately it's just an every day kind of turd of a thread, not a BA turd of a thread, because then it would smell like roses...

Edit: Come to think of it BA's turds probably play better CF than anyone else the Sox have.

JB98
07-10-2008, 11:21 PM
Might as well give that one up. If JD played for the Royals, the FOBAs would be telling you his HR would have been a routine out with BA patrolling CF...

Even the one I think Anderson could have gotten (Guillen's) would have been a very difficult play.

I've seen the ball get rocketed over Brian's head this year too. Nobody catches everything.