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Lip Man 1
07-05-2008, 11:09 PM
Very nice story with Frank and the possibility of him having his number retired. Also says if he is fortunate to go into the Hall it will be wearing a Sox cap. (I think that's a no brainer myself...he's a first ballot Hall of Famer!)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080705-frank-thomas-white-sox-ozzie-guillen,1,4491843.story

Lip

TommyJohn
07-06-2008, 12:40 AM
Very nice story with Frank and the possibility of him having his number retired. Also says if he is fortunate to go into the Hall it will be wearing a Sox cap. (I think that's a no brainer myself...he's a first ballot Hall of Famer!)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080705-frank-thomas-white-sox-ozzie-guillen,1,4491843.story

Lip

I don't think so...I can think of two Chicago media members who will most likely openly campaign against Thomas. Make that three. I base this on stuff they have written about him in the past.

doublem23
07-06-2008, 12:48 AM
I don't think so...I can think of two Chicago media members who will most likely openly campaign against Thomas. Make that three. I base this on stuff they have written about him in the past.

Frank will benefit though nationally, I think, by being a clean hitter in the era that he played in. Maybe he won't finish with Bonds-like numbers, but as long as his nose stays clean the next few years I think he's in 1st ballot, no doubt.

TDog
07-06-2008, 01:20 AM
Very nice story with Frank and the possibility of him having his number retired. Also says if he is fortunate to go into the Hall it will be wearing a Sox cap. (I think that's a no brainer myself...he's a first ballot Hall of Famer!)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080705-frank-thomas-white-sox-ozzie-guillen,1,4491843.story

Lip

I don't expect Frank Thomas to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame, certainly. Had I a ballot with an eligible Thomas to vote for, I would vote for Thomas. But I don't expect 75 percent or more of the ballots to name Thomas in his first year of eligibility.

I think if Thomas had retired before going to Oakland or before going to Toronto, he would be held in higher esteem. With all the players hitting 500 home runs, I don't believe the achievement is as impressive as it used to be, and it's been awhile since Thomas was a .300 hitter. It is true that Thomas has been a clean hitter in an era of some questionable success, but the same cold be said for Jim Thome. I don't think he will be a first ballot Hall of Famer either.

It will be interesting if Thomas and Thome become eligible the same year (and it's possible both are playing in their last seasons) how they are treated by Hall of Fame voters.

JermaineDye05
07-06-2008, 01:33 AM
It's nice to see Frank sort of apologize for the way he acted after leaving in 2005. With the way he said "When I get older I get wiser." It's sort of a way of saying he was wrong back in 05 and he sees that now. Hopefully Kenny can do the same and the two can bury the hatchet.

chisoxfanatic
07-06-2008, 01:37 AM
Frank will benefit though nationally, I think, by being a clean hitter in the era that he played in. Maybe he won't finish with Bonds-like numbers, but as long as his nose stays clean the next few years I think he's in 1st ballot, no doubt.
I think so too. A few journalists here and there won't change things drastically. That will be quite an emotional HOF acceptance speech that he will give. I can't wait!

gobears1987
07-06-2008, 01:53 AM
I'd love to see Thomas get a coaching position with the Sox when he retires.

doublem23
07-06-2008, 01:58 AM
I'd love to see Thomas get a coaching position with the Sox when he retires.

I don't necessarily see what he'd coach.

Britt Burns
07-06-2008, 02:07 AM
Frank probably won't be a 1st ballot HOFer, even though he should be. There are too many writers with axes to grind against him, and a significant number who will not vote for him due to he being primarily a DH (the Harold Baines excuse). My guess he goes in 2nd or 3rd try.

Nellie_Fox
07-06-2008, 02:33 AM
Frank probably won't be a 1st ballot HOFer, even though he should be. A lot will depend on who else retires the same year he does. Who is in your "class" has a lot to do with who gets in on the first ballot; a lot of writers won't vote for more than one or two each year.

IlliniSox4Life
07-06-2008, 04:27 AM
I don't necessarily see what he'd coach.


Greg Walker's job perhaps? I don't really know, just the first thing that comes to mind. I don't know what he'd coach either.

I wouldn't mind the Sox trying him out in the broadcasting area at some point. He tried last post season with TBS IIRC, and wasn't awful, esp. for a first timer. I'd like to see people actually get to know Frank a little better than the snippets they read in the paper.

Eddo144
07-07-2008, 10:50 AM
I don't expect Frank Thomas to be a first ballot Hall of Famer. I believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame, certainly. Had I a ballot with an eligible Thomas to vote for, I would vote for Thomas. But I don't expect 75 percent or more of the ballots to name Thomas in his first year of eligibility.

I think if Thomas had retired before going to Oakland or before going to Toronto, he would be held in higher esteem. With all the players hitting 500 home runs, I don't believe the achievement is as impressive as it used to be, and it's been awhile since Thomas was a .300 hitter. It is true that Thomas has been a clean hitter in an era of some questionable success, but the same cold be said for Jim Thome. I don't think he will be a first ballot Hall of Famer either.

It will be interesting if Thomas and Thome become eligible the same year (and it's possible both are playing in their last seasons) how they are treated by Hall of Fame voters.
I see where you're coming from, and it certainly will be interesting to see if Thomas gets in on the first ballot.

A couple reasons I respectfully disagree:
1. 500 HR is still a big milestone, and Thomas flew by it (he'll retire with more than Ted Williams and Willie McCovey. There's also less reason to believe his power is a product of era, and not just his physique (after all, he played tight end at Auburn, a football school).

2. He will score major "character points" for being the only player explicitly cleared by the Mitchell Report. While even players like A-Rod and Manny, who have 500 HR, will have the PED cloud hanging over them (farily or not), Thomas will be considered clean.

3. As for the Thome comparison, Thomas had a much better peak. His first 8 years in the league, I believe, are comparable only to Ruth, Gehrig, and Ted Williams. He won consecutive MVPs and should have won another. Thome was never the best hitter in the league while he played. Thomas was.

ondafarm
07-07-2008, 11:03 AM
I think Thomas deserves to be a first ballot Hall of Fame electee, but I doubt he will be. There are several factors coming into play, does he return next year, how does he do end of this year, who else is in his class.

Unfortunately, I don't think he will get the votes on the first ballot. I agree that Frank was more fearsome during his peak than Thome but I also think Thome will get in after a couple of ballots.

RowanDye
07-07-2008, 11:33 AM
I see where you're coming from, and it certainly will be interesting to see if Thomas gets in on the first ballot.

A couple reasons I respectfully disagree:
1. 500 HR is still a big milestone, and Thomas flew by it (he'll retire with more than Ted Williams and Willie McCovey. There's also less reason to believe his power is a product of era, and not just his physique (after all, he played tight end at Auburn, a football school).

2. He will score major "character points" for being the only player explicitly cleared by the Mitchell Report. While even players like A-Rod and Manny, who have 500 HR, will have the PED cloud hanging over them (farily or not), Thomas will be considered clean.

3. As for the Thome comparison, Thomas had a much better peak. His first 8 years in the league, I believe, are comparable only to Ruth, Gehrig, and Ted Williams. He won consecutive MVPs and should have won another. Thome was never the best hitter in the league while he played. Thomas was.

No doubt that Thomas has a slightly better resume than Thome right now. As you said, I think voters will weigh those MVP awards heavily. The only caveat I would mention is that Thome is still playing fairly well right now. I don't think he's going to win the MVP this year, but I think he has a better chance than Thomas to pad his numbers and do something memorable in the postseason.

Brian26
07-07-2008, 12:09 PM
I'd love to see Thomas get a coaching position with the Sox when he retires.

After watching Frank play here for 15 years, I don't see one attribute about his personality and the way he conducted himself that would make him a good coach at anything.

I love the guy, and he provided a lot of great memories. He and Robin were the faces of the franchise in the 90s. I hope he's a first ballot HOFer.

Oblong
07-07-2008, 01:46 PM
From this outsider's perspective I can say I fully expect him to be a no brainer when he's eligible. I'm surprised there's any doubt.

I've not seen anything even remotely linking him to PED's, I know I don't have to tell any of you that but I think it's useful for you to know from the perspective of other fans. We have no biases to think one way or the other about it and he stands out among the heavy weights as not being linked to any funny business.

I guess the only negative thing I can think of that the voters could use against him is that he was a DH. But he was so good in the 90s when he was a primary 1B. He'll get in.

redsand22
07-07-2008, 01:46 PM
I don't necessarily see what he'd coach.

Strength coach?

PennStater98r
07-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Additional factors as to why Frank Thomas is a first ballot HoF (cont. from Eddo's post:

4. He is easily the best player ever to wear a White Sox uniform in their 100+ year history (no not Collins, Appling or Fox - though all great).

5. Not only was he at given points in his career the best hitter in baseball - but he was also one of the most popular. I can remember reading polls in Beckett in the early 90s and Griffey and Thomas were always in the 1 or 2 spot for well over two years. The media did not really start getting on Thomas until the late 90s.

6. He does officially have a ring.

7. If Frank were to retire after this season, he'd end his career with a .300/.400/.500 split. In addition, he has many milestone numbers - 500 HR, 2400 Hits, 1700 RBI, 1400 Runs and 1600 BB. The only players in the history of baseball to have a .300/.400/.500 split with 2000 Hits, 300 HR, 500 2B (Hurt has 493) and 1000 BB are Ruth, Williams, Musial, Hornsby, Gehrig and 'gar Martinez.

8. It's just a no-brainer!

ilsox7
07-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Strength coach?

Frank does not come close to having the qualifications to be a strength coach.

TommyJohn
07-07-2008, 02:27 PM
Additional factors as to why Frank Thomas is a first ballot HoF (cont. from Eddo's post:

4. He is easily the best player ever to wear a White Sox uniform in their 100+ year history (no not Collins, Appling or Fox - though all great).

5. Not only was he at given points in his career the best hitter in baseball - but he was also one of the most popular. I can remember reading polls in Beckett in the early 90s and Griffey and Thomas were always in the 1 or 2 spot for well over two years. The media did not really start getting on Thomas until the late 90s.

6. He does officially have a ring.

7. If Frank were to retire after this season, he'd end his career with a .300/.400/.500 split. In addition, he has many milestone numbers - 500 HR, 2400 Hits, 1700 RBI, 1400 Runs and 1600 BB. The only players in the history of baseball to have a .300/.400/.500 split with 2000 Hits, 300 HR, 500 2B (Hurt has 493) and 1000 BB are Ruth, Williams, Musial, Hornsby, Gehrig and 'gar Martinez.

8. It's just a no-brainer!

I agree, he is easily the best player in White Sox history. I can understand
why the team got rid of him, still it bugged me to see him hit his 500th HR
for Toronto. Picture Ernie Banks hitting #500 for the Montreal Expos or
Hank Aaron getting his as a San Diego Padre.

From this outsider's perspective I can say I fully expect him to be a no brainer when he's eligible. I'm surprised there's any doubt.

I've not seen anything even remotely linking him to PED's, I know I don't have to tell any of you that but I think it's useful for you to know from the perspective of other fans. We have no biases to think one way or the other about it and he stands out among the heavy weights as not being linked to any funny business.

I guess the only negative thing I can think of that the voters could use against him is that he was a DH. But he was so good in the 90s when he was a primary 1B. He'll get in.

Thank you for the support, I want him to get in. Clearly, you do not live in
Chicago, where the media has done nothing but dog him. When the White
Sox released him, one scribe sent him off with "Frank Thomas' Top 10
Worst Moments with the White Sox." Most writers send off a legend with
"Top 10 Best Moments" but not here. Imagine Al Kaline or Kirk Gibson getting
that kind of send-off. (Ty Cobb, maybe). Come to think of it, Gibson would
probably say "WHO GIVES A ****, YOU MOTHER****ERS!!!! **** YOU!!!
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!"

You get my point.

skottyj242
07-07-2008, 02:34 PM
Listening to the pregame yesterday with Ranger Frank alluded to the fact that after he's done he hopes the organization will welcome him back in some capacity. That it is something he would love to day when his playing days are over.

Eddo144
07-07-2008, 02:54 PM
From this outsider's perspective I can say I fully expect him to be a no brainer when he's eligible. I'm surprised there's any doubt.

I've not seen anything even remotely linking him to PED's, I know I don't have to tell any of you that but I think it's useful for you to know from the perspective of other fans. We have no biases to think one way or the other about it and he stands out among the heavy weights as not being linked to any funny business.

I guess the only negative thing I can think of that the voters could use against him is that he was a DH. But he was so good in the 90s when he was a primary 1B. He'll get in.
Thanks for the perspective, Oblong. I've long thought that some Sox fans discussion of whether Thomas will get into the hall of fame is clouded by the semi-paranoia that so many Sox fans have (my uncle being a prime example). The kind where they fear Quentin wouldn't be named an All Star despite being SI's AL MVP of the first half. Or the ones who start to like Steve Phillips (yikes) on BBTN because he actually picks the Sox to stay in first place.

Fact: the Sox are not one of the five most popular teams in the league, and not even the most popular in their own city.
Fiction: this means that everyone else has it out for the Sox and that their legitimate accomplishments will be ignored.

TDog
07-07-2008, 03:27 PM
I see where you're coming from, and it certainly will be interesting to see if Thomas gets in on the first ballot.

A couple reasons I respectfully disagree:
1. 500 HR is still a big milestone, and Thomas flew by it (he'll retire with more than Ted Williams and Willie McCovey. There's also less reason to believe his power is a product of era, and not just his physique (after all, he played tight end at Auburn, a football school).

2. He will score major "character points" for being the only player explicitly cleared by the Mitchell Report. While even players like A-Rod and Manny, who have 500 HR, will have the PED cloud hanging over them (farily or not), Thomas will be considered clean.

3. As for the Thome comparison, Thomas had a much better peak. His first 8 years in the league, I believe, are comparable only to Ruth, Gehrig, and Ted Williams. He won consecutive MVPs and should have won another. Thome was never the best hitter in the league while he played. Thomas was.


I just question if Thomas is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He wouldn't be any less a Hall of Famer if it took him a year or two of eligibility to be elected. I'm not sure why people making it into such a big deal. If Thomas and Thome become eligible at the same time, and Thome has more career home runs (a hypothetical that is a possibility), I don't see Thomas going in over Thome. For whatever reason, 500 home runs doesn't mean what it used to. And really, there will be people voting who never saw the Thomas during his best years and only saw him in the downside of his career. It has been awhile since Frank Thomas had his great seasons.

Carlton Fisk wasn't a first-ballot Hall of Famer, although it is possible Ivan Rodriguez will be. If they are both in the Hall of Fame, is one regarded as greater than the other?

C-Dawg
07-07-2008, 03:40 PM
When the White
Sox released him, one scribe sent him off with "Frank Thomas' Top 10
Worst Moments with the White Sox."

That was the article where they managed to work in an old quote from Ozzie Guillen about how "the ballpark is so quiet and empty it feels like a morgue".

Thanks, Tribune!

Eddo144
07-07-2008, 04:31 PM
I just question if Thomas is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He wouldn't be any less a Hall of Famer if it took him a year or two of eligibility to be elected. I'm not sure why people making it into such a big deal. If Thomas and Thome become eligible at the same time, and Thome has more career home runs (a hypothetical that is a possibility), I don't see Thomas going in over Thome. For whatever reason, 500 home runs doesn't mean what it used to. And really, there will be people voting who never saw the Thomas during his best years and only saw him in the downside of his career. It has been awhile since Frank Thomas had his great seasons.

Carlton Fisk wasn't a first-ballot Hall of Famer, although it is possible Ivan Rodriguez will be. If they are both in the Hall of Fame, is one regarded as greater than the other?
No, being a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer doesn't matter in the long run. And you're very right that Thomas could slip from first-ballot status.

I just don't think Thome, even with more career HR (which I think is almost certain to happen), will get in before Thomas. Home runs are not Thomas's biggest qualification - his first 8 years and consecutive MVPs are. You sort of hinted at it in your first post, so I'll go ahead and expand: Thomas is a likely Hall-of-Famer if he retires after 2005 and never hits #500. In that case, he's not a first-ballot guy (he didn't hit the magic number), but he'd get in after a few tries. Hitting #500 simply increased his first ballot chances. I'm of the view that it pushes him over the top, you disagree.

At least we both agree he's a sure-thing Hall-of-Famer.

Also, please note that my opinion of him didn't really change when he hit #500. I'm just giving my view of how voters will look at things.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2008, 05:32 PM
There are only 15 players in MLB history to have hit at least 400 home runs AND won a batting title.

All but three are in the Hall. The three who aren't...Bonds, Sheffield and Thomas.

Folks who are in this select group include names like Gehrig, Musial, Billy Williams.

I don't think Frank has to worry at all about this.

Lip

chisox77
07-07-2008, 10:00 PM
The Big Hurt is HOF material. It will be a great day for all White Sox fans when he is inducted.


:cool:

chisoxfanatic
07-07-2008, 10:19 PM
Listening to the pregame yesterday with Ranger Frank alluded to the fact that after he's done he hopes the organization will welcome him back in some capacity. That it is something he would love to day when his playing days are over.
Though he wouldn't make a great coach, I think he would make a great ambassador for the organization like Minnie Minoso.

WhiteSoxOnly
07-07-2008, 10:29 PM
Though he wouldn't make a great coach, I think he would make a great ambassador for the organization like Minnie Minoso.

Tell it to Kenny Williams...then duck.

Daver
07-07-2008, 10:47 PM
There are only 15 players in MLB history to have hit at least 400 home runs AND won a batting title.

All but three are in the Hall. The three who aren't...Bonds, Sheffield and Thomas.

Folks who are in this select group include names like Gehrig, Musial, Billy Williams.

I don't think Frank has to worry at all about this.

Lip

Frank Thomas also put up numbers for five consecutive seasons that only three other players in the history of the game produced, unknown guys George Ruth, Theodore Williams, and Joseph Dimaggio.

Oblong
07-07-2008, 11:46 PM
Fisk is a good comparison as to why Frank may not make the first ballot. For some reason the voters don't like to put too many guys in at one time so it depends who else is eligible. Even though Fisk didn't make it right away I still considered him a no brainer and I'm sure everyone else did too. Voters often have dumb reasons for not voting someone in.

The more I think about the DH thing I don't think it'll hurt him. The guys he'd be compared to as primarily DH players still were not as dominant as he was in his prime. I bet if 85% of people outside of Chicago looked at his numbers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml) right now they'd say "Wow, he was better than I remember". Those years from 1991-1997.....??? I didn't know what OPS+ was in 1994 but his was 211. Average player is 100. Yeah. That's good. Good for 25th best (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_season.shtml) of all time for a single season. 16 of the first 25 are taken by Ruth, Bonds, and Williams. He's got the 19th best career OPS+. I like using that stat as a rough guide because it does account for eras.

Baseball Reference's different HOF guides look good too.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2008, 11:49 PM
He is also the first player (maybe the ONLY player) to have in each of his first seven seasons in the big leagues:

At least a .300 batting average
At least 20 home runs
At least 100 RBI'S
At least 100 Runs Scored
At least 100 Walks

That is mighty, mighty impressive... a rare and unusual combination of home run power AND plate discipline.

Oblong:

Edgar Martinez is up for Hall induction soon (if not already) he could be a litmus test for guys who were primarily a DH, however keep in mind. Frank played first base for five or six years (maybe more) AND he's a two time MVP, which is something Edgar never was.

Lip

kingpin_rcs
07-08-2008, 12:10 AM
On a side note. I have been to the hall of fame and it is amazing. I have always said that I will return when Frank is inducted. I encourage all Sox fans to try to do the same.

Oblong
07-08-2008, 12:21 AM
Martinez will be eligible in 2010.

Frank had an OPS+ over 170 in his first 8 seasons. Martinez only had one season that good. I think Edgar's results will be a good test if he gets over 50%. Then I figure Frank's a mortal lock because that tells me they don't care much about the DH thing. If he gets below 50 then it could be trouble but I don't think so because I suspect the voters will realize Frank was that much better. It'd be like comparing Trammell to Ripken. Yes both were great but Ripken was that much better.

TheVulture
07-08-2008, 04:09 AM
:scratch:Thomas is a shoo-in first ballot hall of famer.

assrevolution
07-08-2008, 02:42 PM
Anyone who watched baseball in the 90's knows Frank was one of the best hitters in the history of the game. I haven't seen anybody hit the ball harder in my life (30 yrs.). Ever since getting out of the terrible situation in Toronto this year he's been batting .320. Oh yeah, by the way...He's 40!!

We love you Frank!

nccwsfan
07-08-2008, 05:37 PM
Greatest hitter in White Sox history, period.

I look forward to the day his number is retired, the day he's back in the fold with the CWS organization, and the day he's inducted into the Hall of Fame.

RockRiversoxfan
07-09-2008, 02:30 AM
I remember an article a short time ago that said everything between frank and jerry was resolved. I would believe they would retire his number. I do hope frank gets to play in a world series somewere before he retires.

steff
07-09-2008, 10:03 AM
I remember an article a short time ago that said everything between frank and jerry was resolved. I would believe they would retire his number. I do hope frank gets to play in a world series somewere before he retires.


Did you mean to say Frank and Kenny..??