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jabrch
07-01-2008, 12:15 AM
.231/.302/.428

Discuss

Chilli Palmer
07-01-2008, 12:21 AM
Future HOF.

ilsox7
07-01-2008, 12:21 AM
.231/.302/.428

Discuss

It's quite possible that the Diamondbacks made some bad decisions with regard to their outfielders as of late. I still say that while Young may end up being an All-Star, that contract extension was a bad move on the organization's part.

btrain929
07-01-2008, 12:22 AM
KW is clearly an idiot....

Funny thing is, it's not like he's been in a terrible slump all year ala Konerko or Thome or something. Those numbers are actually pretty close with his career MLB numbers thus far. But now that he isn't stealing anymore, that definitely decreases his value as a supposed 5-tool player or just as a baseball player in general. Either way, you can't complain since we've gotten pretty good production out of Javy.

And even if people say we still got hosed on that deal, I'm pretty sure we got them back with TCQ, so its still advantage KW.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 12:22 AM
I will say 19 homers and 18 steals came after the all star break last year, but it doesn't look like he is ever going to make enough contact to be a star.

102605
07-01-2008, 12:22 AM
How many HR/R/RBI/SB does he have?

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 12:22 AM
.231/.302/.428

Discuss

The sensible ones here told everyone that if you look at his numbers outside of HR and SB he had a pretty ****ty 2007.

2007: .237/.295/.467, 32 HR, 68 RBI, 27 SB, 43 BB, 141 Ks (3.2 K/BB)

His 2008 pace looks like this:

22 HR, 75 RBI, 7 SB, 57 BB, 141 Ks (2.4 K/BB)

Those numbers are really, really ****ty. You can put up with high K numbers when you can get on-base at a solid pace and have tons of power ala Jack Cust and Adam Dunn. But .302 & .295 as career OBPs thus far. Ewwwww...

102605
07-01-2008, 12:23 AM
Either way, you can't complain since we've gotten pretty good production out of Javy.

And even if people say we still got hosed on that deal, I'm pretty sure we got them back with TCQ, so its still advantage KW.

Getting a bonafied #1 or #2 SP is worth Chris Young. Anyone who says we got ripped off is nuts.

btrain929
07-01-2008, 12:26 AM
Getting a bonafied #1 or #2 SP is worth Chris Young. Anyone who says we got ripped off is nuts.

I concur. I loved it then and still love it now. We just gotta get Javy to get his control a little more in check and go back to pitching inside to righties here and there, and he'll be back on track after his horrid June.

Boondock Saint
07-01-2008, 12:29 AM
Dammit, I opened this thread expecting it to be about the Chris Young that actually has talent. Total waste of 15 seconds.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 12:30 AM
Dammit, I opened this thread expecting it to be about the Chris Young that actually has talent. Total waste of 15 seconds.

The Chris Young with inflated stats because of Petco Park? That Chris Young?

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 12:39 AM
The Chris Young with inflated stats because of Petco Park? That Chris Young?

Yup, that one.

Oh wait.

2005-2007 Home/Away Splits

Home: 16-12, 3.54 ERA, .219 OBA
Away: 16-8, 3.66 ERA, .215 OBA

Yeah, that one.

Boondock Saint
07-01-2008, 12:41 AM
The Chris Young with inflated stats because of Petco Park? That Chris Young?

Are JD, Konerko and Thome overrated hitters with inflated stats because of where they hit, too? Of course not. You play where you play. If you do well there, you do well there.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 12:44 AM
Yup, that one.

Oh wait.

2005-2007 Home/Away Splits

Home: 16-12, 3.54 ERA, .219 OBA
Away: 16-8, 3.66 ERA, .215 OBA

Yeah, that one.

I stand corrected.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 12:49 AM
Yup, that one.

Oh wait.

2005-2007 Home/Away Splits

Home: 16-12, 3.54 ERA, .219 OBA
Away: 16-8, 3.66 ERA, .215 OBA

Yeah, that one.

But last year he had an era a full 2 runs higher away from San Diego, almost 3 runs. And this season his away era is above 6, I am not sure if I have been corrected.

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 12:50 AM
But last year he had an era a full 2 runs higher away from San Diego, almost 3 runs.

That's great, but that's also one year. As I've shown over the course of his career in San Diego the majority being in the time-span I've mentioned he has been nearly identical home and away.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 12:52 AM
That's great, but that's also one year. As I've shown over the course of his career in San Diego the majority being in the time-span I've mentioned he has been nearly identical home and away.

I put in an edit, actually only one year was good away from Petco, an insane era in the one's.

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 12:57 AM
I put in an edit, actually only one year was good away from Petco, an insane era in the one's.

Is there an extreme difference in hits or home runs before home and away for him? I'm just curious. Those are the two things I could see changing via Petco Park is a lot less HR allowed at home.

Boondock Saint
07-01-2008, 12:57 AM
But last year he had an era a full 2 runs higher away from San Diego, almost 3 runs. And this season his away era is above 6, I am not sure if I have been corrected.

You could also look at Mark Buehrle and say that in 06 he had an ERA of 4.99. But it'd be more accurate to look to his full career stats.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 01:01 AM
Is there an extreme difference in hits or home runs before home and away for him? I'm just curious. Those are the two things I could see changing via Petco Park is a lot less HR allowed at home.

He has given up 21 homers at Petco Park compared to 33 on the road. That is the only big difference I see.

SoxSpeed22
07-01-2008, 01:01 AM
Let's hope that the overall crapiness of the White Sox minor league farm system doesn't prevent any future deals with anyone.
When some friends were watching the Cubs-D'Backs series this year, I said to them, 'To get Chris Young out, don't ever throw him a fastball.' All of those home runs have come off of fastballs and he strikes out a ton. He should be able to stick in the majors because of his good defense, but probably won't do much.

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 01:08 AM
He has given up 21 homers at Petco Park compared to 33 on the road. That is the only big difference I see.

When I get some time tomorrow, I'm going to review Petco's Park Factors and see what they are usually high in and see if that correlates with Young's Home/Away splits. Too tired right now though. :cool:

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 01:12 AM
When I get some time tomorrow, I'm going to review Petco's Park Factors and see what they are usually high in and see if that correlates with Young's Home/Away splits. Too tired right now though. :cool:

I wouldn't mind seeing Peavy's as well.:smile: I'm surprised by the stats being so close because I remembered the big difference last year. I had no idea about the 06 season where he absolutely dominated on the road. He does walk a ton of people so the home run difference could make all the difference in the world.

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 01:15 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing Peavy's as well.:smile: I'm surprised by the stats being so close because I remembered the big difference last year. I had no idea about the 06 season where he absolutely dominated on the road. He does walk a ton of people so the home run difference could make all the difference in the world.

Yeah I'll definitely check it out tomorrow.

DSpivack
07-01-2008, 01:18 AM
Speaking of the pitcher Chris Young, good god what (another) awful trade by the Rangers.

BadBobbyJenks
07-01-2008, 01:27 AM
Speaking of the pitcher Chris Young, good god what (another) awful trade by the Rangers.

Yeah Gonzalez was in that trade as well. What did the Rangers get Adam Eaton?

DSpivack
07-01-2008, 01:30 AM
Yeah Gonzalez was in that trade as well. What did the Rangers get Adam Eaton?

They got Akinori Otsuka and Eaton. Eaton pitched one year in Texas, only to sign a free agent deal in the following year.

cards press box
07-01-2008, 08:58 AM
I will say 19 homers and 18 steals came after the all star break last year, but it doesn't look like he is ever going to make enough contact to be a star.

Hasn't Phil Rogers inflamed a lot of this Chris Young talk? Young is a good player. He's fast, plays good defense in CF and has some power. That said, he strikes out quite a bit and is not a leadoff man. Rogers hated the Young/Vazquez trade from the start and I really don't know why. Vazquez struggles at times but he is a legitimate power pitcher and is at least a #2 or a #3 starter. With his strikeouts, Vazquez also gives some variety to the Sox rotation. Last year, he was definitely the Sox' best starter.

Getting a bonafied #1 or #2 SP is worth Chris Young. Anyone who says we got ripped off is nuts.

The Sox didn't get ripped off. If the Cubs had made the number of good deals that Kenny Williams has made over the past few years, the Chicago media would be lauding him as the best GM ever. It's o.k., though -- Sox fans know a good GM when they have one. And we have a great GM.

The Immigrant
07-01-2008, 09:08 AM
It's quite possible that the Diamondbacks made some bad decisions with regard to their outfielders as of late.

The contract extension they gave to Eric Byrnes last year was ridiculous, and that extension is what ultimately forced them to trade Quentin.

Let's see...Eric Byrnes for $12m/year or Carlos Quentin for peanuts? :scratch:

I just hope we don't make the same mistake with Josh Fields.

asindc
07-01-2008, 09:13 AM
The contract extension they gave to Eric Byrnes last year was ridiculous, and that extension is what ultimately forced them to trade Quentin.

Let's see...Eric Byrnes for $12m/year or Carlos Quentin for peanuts? :scratch:

I just hope we don't make the same mistake with Josh Fields.

Very good point.

balke
07-01-2008, 09:19 AM
Last season it seemed like everytime someone mentioned how poorly Young was doing, he would hit about 10 hr's the next few weeks with 10 steals and raise his avg. to .260. But yeah, I'm pretty happy with TCQ.

Chris Young will probably go on a good streak post all-star break though, so don't think he's toast. He really got hot last season.

Mohoney
07-01-2008, 09:21 AM
The guy is only 24, and he hasn't even reached 1000 at-bats yet for his major league career. It's still way too soon to write him off.

Even if he does end up as a failure, why anyone would take glee in that is beyond me.

This is already the 3rd season since the trade was made. Get over it already.

asindc
07-01-2008, 09:23 AM
The guy is only 24, and he hasn't even reached 1000 at-bats yet for his major league career. It's still way too soon to write him off.

Even if he does end up as a failure, why anyone would take glee in that is beyond me.

This is already the 3rd season since the trade was made. Get over it already.

It's not so much that people are taking glee as it is people are pointing out that the trade makes sense now and made sense then, despite the loud hand-wringing some Sox fans exhibited when the deal was done.

GAsoxfan
07-01-2008, 09:26 AM
The sensible ones here told everyone that if you look at his numbers outside of HR and SB he had a pretty ****ty 2007.

2007: .237/.295/.467, 32 HR, 68 RBI, 27 SB, 43 BB, 141 Ks (3.2 K/BB)

His 2008 pace looks like this:

22 HR, 75 RBI, 7 SB, 57 BB, 141 Ks (2.4 K/BB)

Those numbers are really, really ****ty. You can put up with high K numbers when you can get on-base at a solid pace and have tons of power ala Jack Cust and Adam Dunn. But .302 & .295 as career OBPs thus far. Ewwwww...

So basically he's a faster version of Juan Uribe.

balke
07-01-2008, 09:27 AM
It's not so much that people are taking glee as it is people are pointing out that the trade makes sense now and made sense then, despite the loud hand-wringing some Sox fans exhibited when the deal was done.

Also see: Jeremy Reed, DLS, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, Jon Rauch, Miguel Olivo, and whomever the Sox trade at the deadline this season.

Mohoney
07-01-2008, 09:29 AM
It's not so much that people are taking glee as it is people are pointing out that the trade makes sense now and made sense then, despite the loud hand-wringing some Sox fans exhibited when the deal was done.

But anybody with a clue already knew that the trade was a no-brainer. You always get the starting pitching when it's out there, even if it costs you the best prospect in your organization.

Add in the fact that we were defending a World Series title, and the trade is even more sensible than it usually would be.

JUribe1989
07-01-2008, 09:38 AM
First of all, there is absolutely no reason to rip on Chris Young. The kid is 24 years old coming off of a rookie campaign in which he hit 32 HRs. He's allowed to have sophomore slump. The guy we got for him (Javy) has been having a sophomore slump for half his career. Cut CY some slack, the home run numbers and stolen base numbers will be back. Again, he's 24!

Diamondback fans could be posting the same thread on their boards right now with Javy's current stats. They're both in little slumps, it looked like a win-win trade last year and unless Javy keeps this up (which I doubt he will), it will remain a win-win trade. Just because we got rid of someone does not mean we have to tear him to shreds.

Optipessimism
07-01-2008, 10:08 AM
First of all, there is absolutely no reason to rip on Chris Young. The kid is 24 years old coming off of a rookie campaign in which he hit 32 HRs. He's allowed to have sophomore slump. The guy we got for him (Javy) has been having a sophomore slump for half his career. Cut CY some slack, the home run numbers and stolen base numbers will be back. Again, he's 24!

Diamondback fans could be posting the same thread on their boards right now with Javy's current stats. They're both in little slumps, it looked like a win-win trade last year and unless Javy keeps this up (which I doubt he will), it will remain a win-win trade. Just because we got rid of someone does not mean we have to tear him to shreds.
Great post. Thank you.

jabrch
07-01-2008, 10:12 AM
But anybody with a clue already knew that the trade was a no-brainer.

That's revisionist history. There are a lot of people who either believe they have a clue, or actually do, who thought this was the worst deal ever, even as recently as last year. Although I haven't heard it this year, I am sure there are still some people who thing they'd rather have Young in CF and an extra 8mm (or whatever Javy makes) than Javy in the rotation.

Optipessimism
07-01-2008, 10:13 AM
The sensible ones here told everyone that if you look at his numbers outside of HR and SB he had a pretty ****ty 2007.

2007: .237/.295/.467, 32 HR, 68 RBI, 27 SB, 43 BB, 141 Ks (3.2 K/BB)

His 2008 pace looks like this:

22 HR, 75 RBI, 7 SB, 57 BB, 141 Ks (2.4 K/BB)

Those numbers are really, really ****ty. You can put up with high K numbers when you can get on-base at a solid pace and have tons of power ala Jack Cust and Adam Dunn. But .302 & .295 as career OBPs thus far. Ewwwww...
This is a CF we are talking about, not a DH, so your comparison is ridiculous.

If you think OBP is a huge deal for a CF, look at Mike Cameron. He's had himself a nice MLB career, no?

cws05champ
07-01-2008, 10:16 AM
Also see: Jeremy Reed, DLS, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, Jon Rauch, Miguel Olivo, and whomever the Sox trade at the deadline this season.
Don't look now, but Jeremy Reed is hitting .390 over the last three weeks...

Mohoney
07-01-2008, 10:20 AM
That's revisionist history.

It's only revisionist history if I was against the trade. I was for the trade, and I explained why in the rest of my post.

What other people said about the trade was not within my control.

asindc
07-01-2008, 10:22 AM
It's only revisionist history if I was against the trade. I was for the trade, and I explained why in the rest of my post.

What other people said about the trade was not within my control.

Yes, but his point, and mine also, is that the current scrutiny of Chris Young's performance is in response to the many Sox fans who were adament in their displeasure for the deal in the first place. The point is, at this stage it looks like we did not give up a future HOF for Vazquez after all.

jabrch
07-01-2008, 10:23 AM
First of all, there is absolutely no reason to rip on Chris Young.

If pointing out his stats is ripping on him, then he (and the FOCY) needs to toughen up.

There is nothing wrong with discussing players we traded a few years after the trade. For all the geniuses who were bashing this deal when we made is as the Sox giving up a 5 tool OF, that hasn't materialized. If we are going to allow people to bash moves when they are made based on their own perspective (and we absolutely should) then we should also have no problem talking about them in hindsight.

Low Average

Low OPB

High K

and not so much benefit from his SBs and HRs since...they aren't happening at a blistering pace anymore.


Chris Young is...well...still a prospect. The jury is still out on him. But at this point, I'd score this deal on KW's side.

jabrch
07-01-2008, 10:24 AM
It's only revisionist history if I was against the trade. I was for the trade, and I explained why in the rest of my post.

What other people said about the trade was not within my control.

But you said that anybody with a clue knew is was a no-brainer. Lots of people who we'd say have a clue disagree with you and I. I agree with you - this was a good deal when we made it, and it still is. But to say anybody with a clue knew that is a reach. Go back to any of the million or so CY threads...

voodoochile
07-01-2008, 10:25 AM
I've been kind of following him a bit this year simply because of the huge discussions that broke out last year regarding him.

For me the most alarming stat is that he had 5 HR on 4/15 and has 8 in the last 2.5 months. He hit 1 (one) in June with an OPS of .602 for the month.

If his power goes away he's simply not worth playing everyday.

Optipessimism
07-01-2008, 10:26 AM
That's revisionist history. There are a lot of people who either believe they have a clue, or actually do, who thought this was the worst deal ever, even as recently as last year. Although I haven't heard it this year, I am sure there are still some people who thing they'd rather have Young in CF and an extra 8mm (or whatever Javy makes) than Javy in the rotation.
Honestly, who cares anymore? This trade was made something like 2 1/2 years ago. 2 1/2 years ago Chris Young was a great prospect, and every single time a great prospect gets traded there are people that do not like the deal.

So what is the point here? Why did you start this thread? To rip on a young player? To prove that not all prospects labeled as future All-Stars have All-Star seasons in their second years? To prove yourself right or rub it in the faces of fans who didn't like the deal 2 1/2 years ago? Why? You obviously didn't start the thread to discuss which team won the deal or which team has benefited the most so far from the deal as it is fairly obvious the trade has worked out well for the Sox.

oeo
07-01-2008, 10:29 AM
The guy is only 24, and he hasn't even reached 1000 at-bats yet for his major league career. It's still way too soon to write him off.

And yet, all he does still, is hit homeruns. Yes, he's still young, but he's not improving.

He's starting to look like a Luis Terrero type. Loads of talent, just can't put it together.

Optipessimism
07-01-2008, 10:30 AM
If pointing out his stats is ripping on him, then he (and the FOCY) needs to toughen up.

There is nothing wrong with discussing players we traded a few years after the trade. For all the geniuses who were bashing this deal when we made is as the Sox giving up a 5 tool OF, that hasn't materialized. If we are going to allow people to bash moves when they are made based on their own perspective (and we absolutely should) then we should also have no problem talking about them in hindsight.

Low Average

Low OPB

High K

and not so much benefit from his SBs and HRs since...they aren't happening at a blistering pace anymore.


Chris Young is...well...still a prospect. The jury is still out on him. But at this point, I'd score this deal on KW's side.
Ha, I just made a post wondering about your motivation for starting this thread. Now I know for sure. You want to rub it in. Somehow it is fun for you to wait 2 1/2 years for a promising young player to hit struggles in his 2nd year of the Majors just so you can come back and make a thread about how wrong everyone else who didn't like the deal was. Great.

Mohoney
07-01-2008, 10:34 AM
And yet, all he does still, is hit homeruns. Yes, he's still young, but he's not improving.

He's starting to look like a Luis Terrero type. Loads of talent, just can't put it together.

Was Luis Terrero ever capable of playing defense like Chris Young does? I didn't see Terrero play in the minors, so I don't know.

oeo
07-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Was Luis Terrero ever capable of playing defense like Chris Young does? I didn't see Terrero play in the minors, so I don't know.

Terrero was a 5-tool prospect.

balke
07-01-2008, 10:49 AM
Don't look now, but Jeremy Reed is hitting .390 over the last three weeks...

The Sox could've easily gotten him back by now if they wanted. They may want to try. I think he's only got a one year contract going at this point with a couple options.

That's the main point for me when it comes to prospects being traded. By the time they develop, free agency is just around the corner in many cases.

edit: Nevermind, he's still pretty much the same as Anderson.

FedEx227
07-01-2008, 01:03 PM
This is a CF we are talking about, not a DH, so your comparison is ridiculous.

If you think OBP is a huge deal for a CF, look at Mike Cameron. He's had himself a nice MLB career, no?

Cameron also has a somewhat respectable on-base percentage aka above .300.

Mike Cameron career: .249/.339/.446
Chris Young career: .236/.298/.447

Juan Uribe career: .252/.294/.423

ilsox7
07-01-2008, 01:29 PM
Honestly, who cares anymore? This trade was made something like 2 1/2 years ago. 2 1/2 years ago Chris Young was a great prospect, and every single time a great prospect gets traded there are people that do not like the deal.

So what is the point here? Why did you start this thread? To rip on a young player? To prove that not all prospects labeled as future All-Stars have All-Star seasons in their second years? To prove yourself right or rub it in the faces of fans who didn't like the deal 2 1/2 years ago? Why? You obviously didn't start the thread to discuss which team won the deal or which team has benefited the most so far from the deal as it is fairly obvious the trade has worked out well for the Sox.
This is a baseball discussion board. The thread was started to discuss Chris Young. A pretty novel idea, really.

veeter
07-01-2008, 02:30 PM
Phil Rogers, he of the bi-weekly 'The Sox are so dumb to trade Chris Young' article, thinks Young is better than Quentin. Come to think of it, he hasn't written one of those articles in a while.:scratch: