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jabrch
06-29-2008, 01:51 AM
Buehrle is 4-1 with 16 ER in 56.2 IP for an ERA of 2.54.

Just thinking out loud...

Noneck
06-29-2008, 02:05 AM
And since 5/14 when Quentin was put in the 3 hole the Sox are 27-15. And lineups don't really matter?

Just thinking out loud.

PatK
06-29-2008, 02:14 PM
Buehrle is 4-1 with 16 ER in 56.2 IP for an ERA of 2.54.

Just thinking out loud...

Unfortunately, I was at his May 7th start against the Twins.

TomBradley72
06-29-2008, 02:31 PM
And since 5/14 when Quentin was put in the 3 hole the Sox are 27-15. And lineups don't really matter?

Just thinking out loud.

Has anyone ever argued that production from your #3 hitter doesn't matter?

Noneck
06-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Has anyone ever argued that production from your #3 hitter doesn't matter?

Yes I believe it was the day before Buehrle started pitch well. The quote was the following "I don't believe shuffling a lineup does much, Hitters either hit or they don't. I don't believe where a guy hits today, 3 or 4 or 5 has any bearing on it. That is the same 9 guys in a different order. How they hit, good or bad, depends very little on the order of the lineup."

TomBradley72
06-29-2008, 03:00 PM
Yes I believe it was the day before Buehrle started pitch well. The quote was the following "Hitters either hit or they don't. I don't believe where a guy hits today, 3 or 4 or 5 has any bearing on it. That is the same 9 guys in a different order. How they hit, good or bad, depends very little on the order of the lineup."

That statement seems to be more about an individual players performance (Quentin is going to rake whether he's batting 7th or 3rd) vs. how the sequence of an overall batting order impacts the team winning. It might matter for some hitters...but I don't think you can argue that putting TCQ in the 3rd slot has been some kind of "catalyst" for his personal production.

Noneck
06-29-2008, 03:14 PM
That statement seems to be more about an individual players performance (Quentin is going to rake whether he's batting 7th or 3rd) vs. how the sequence of an overall batting order impacts the team winning. It might matter for some hitters...but I don't think you can argue that putting TCQ in the 3rd slot has been some kind of "catalyst" for his personal production.
Sorry, I mistakenly didn't post the full quote. It has been edited.

Eddo144
06-29-2008, 04:12 PM
Sorry, I mistakenly didn't post the full quote. It has been edited.
I still don't think it's saying what you think it's saying. Do you really believe Quentin is hitting better because he's batting third versus seventh?

Now, it's better for the whole team if you have better hitters batting higher in the order, but I find it hard to believe it would affect how individuals hit.

Noneck
06-29-2008, 04:17 PM
I still don't think it's saying what you think it's saying. Do you really believe Quentin is hitting better because he's batting third versus seventh?

Now, it's better for the whole team if you have better hitters batting higher in the order, but I find it hard to believe it would affect how individuals hit.
Since Quentin started batting 3rd the Sox are 27-15. Lineups do matter.

jabrch
06-29-2008, 04:20 PM
I still don't think it's saying what you think it's saying. Do you really believe Quentin is hitting better because he's batting third versus seventh?

Now, it's better for the whole team if you have better hitters batting higher in the order, but I find it hard to believe it would affect how individuals hit.


Take 9 guys, and have 50 different managers and coaches make a lineup. You may get 25 different lineups. And the marginal difference between one and another is nearly nothing. Then move guys up and down - and the marginal difference will still be nearly nothing.

Put a good player at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and there will likely be no marginal difference in his productivity.

As long as you don't do something tragicly stupid, like hitting Uribe #3 or like leading off with Thome (and even that I don't believe would have a significant adverse impact) lineup construction is as overrated as anything in baseball.

Eddo144
06-29-2008, 04:30 PM
Since Quentin started batting 3rd the Sox are 27-15. Lineups do matter.
Well, yes, and Quentin should be hitting third for the Sox; he is their best hitter. But hitting third has no effect on his individual success, which you seem to be arguing.

If I'm misinterpreting, I'm sorry, but the quote you cited is just saying that individual players aren't affected by where they hit.

Noneck
06-29-2008, 04:30 PM
Yup, Just a major coincidence that the Sox are 27-15 since 5/14 when Quentin started batting 3rd. Who knows maybe they would have also been 27-15 with Thome still in the 3 slot. Yea sure.

MCHSoxFan
06-29-2008, 04:39 PM
Yup, Just a major coincidence that the Sox are 27-15 since 5/14 when Quentin started batting 3rd. Who knows maybe they would have also been 27-15 with Thome still in the 3 slot. Yea sure.

They would NOT be 27-15 with THOME in the 3rd spot. However, it is not because a certain spot matters. It is because Carlos is good and that spot is a good spot for him because he can knock in runs. Something Thome has been having trouble with.

Noneck
06-29-2008, 04:43 PM
They would NOT be 27-15 with THOME in the 3rd spot. However, it is not because a certain spot matters. It is because Carlos is good and that spot is a good spot for him because he can knock in runs. Something Thome has been having trouble with.
Spots are positions in a batting order. Lineups are players in a certain spot in a batting order. So, Yes lineups do matter. Although some people think lineups don't matter.

MCHSoxFan
06-29-2008, 04:52 PM
Spots are positions in a batting order. Lineups are players in a certain spot in a batting order. So, Yes lineups do matter. Although some people think lineups don't matter.


Line-ups DO matter in the sense of who is playing in a certain spot. That is why were are doing so well since CQ moved to the 3-spot.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-29-2008, 05:31 PM
I doubt there is a single pitcher in Major League Baseball who would ever arrogantly assert that the opposing team's line up doesn't matter.

Eddo144
06-29-2008, 05:53 PM
I doubt there is a single pitcher in Major League Baseball who would ever arrogantly assert that the opposing team's line up doesn't matter.
No one's saying that.

I'm saying: where an individual player (Quentin) hits in the lineup (third vs. seventh) has no influence on that individual player's performance.

What Noneck keeps saying: the batting order influences how well the team does.

Note that the two things are not contradictory. There is virtually no disagreement going on here, but Noneck keeps bringing up the team's record since Quentin was moved to third in the order.


And here's a little evidence that Quentin moving to the third spot had no bearing on his performance:

Before May 14 (the first game he batted 3rd): 37 games, 9 HR, 29 RBI, .287/.399/.566
Since May 14 (the first game he batted 3rd): 40 games, 9 HR, 31 RBI, .291/.397/.514

Frontman
06-29-2008, 06:04 PM
I doubt there is a single pitcher in Major League Baseball who would ever arrogantly assert that the opposing team's line up doesn't matter.


http://www.redstormsports.com/media/1/e724870917074407bfddcae3f6c54ee7.jpg
"You're damn right. I'm not in the MLB anymore, and its about time ya'll left me alone!"

jabrch
06-29-2008, 06:20 PM
Well, yes, and Quentin should be hitting third for the Sox; he is their best hitter. But hitting third has no effect on his individual success, which you seem to be arguing.

If I'm misinterpreting, I'm sorry, but the quote you cited is just saying that individual players aren't affected by where they hit.

Exactly...

jabrch
06-29-2008, 06:22 PM
I doubt there is a single pitcher in Major League Baseball who would ever arrogantly assert that the opposing team's line up doesn't matter.

And in other news, water is wet...

Now there are very few pitchers that would say they aren't afraid of facing Carlos Quinten hitting 7th, but they'd sweat facing him hitting 3rd.

A MLB pitcher would likely say that good hitters will hit regardless of where the are in a lineup and that they respect those hitters for their skills, not their lineup slot.

jabrch
06-29-2008, 06:24 PM
Before May 14 (the first game he batted 3rd): 37 games, 9 HR, 29 RBI, .287/.399/.566
Since May 14 (the first game he batted 3rd): 40 games, 9 HR, 31 RBI, .291/.397/.514

And since AJ hit ahead of him in both scenarios, and the only other difference was JD before and OC now... As I said - virtually no difference in # of runs scored over the course of a season.

Noneck
06-29-2008, 06:35 PM
No one's saying that.

I'm saying: where an individual player (Quentin) hits in the lineup (third vs. seventh) has no influence on that individual player's performance.

What Noneck keeps saying: the batting order influences how well the team does.

Note that the two things are not contradictory. There is virtually no disagreement going on here, but Noneck keeps bringing up the team's record since Quentin was moved to third in the order.


And here's a little evidence that Quentin moving to the third spot had no bearing on his performance:

Before May 14 (the first game he batted 3rd): 37 games, 9 HR, 29 RBI, .287/.399/.566
Since May 14 (the first game he batted 3rd): 40 games, 9 HR, 31 RBI, .291/.397/.514

The change in lineup was huge in turning this team around on 5/14, changing a teams lineup can and has been shown, can make more than a marginal difference in a teams productivity and success

.

Eddo144
06-30-2008, 12:51 AM
The change in lineup was huge in turning this team around on 5/14, changing a teams lineup can and has been shown, can make more than a marginal difference in a teams productivity and success

.
Will you please read what I'm saying? Nowhere did I say the lineup change had no effect on the team's success. All I'm saying is that the lineup change had no effect on Carlos Quentin's individual success.

Noneck
06-30-2008, 01:23 AM
Will you please read what I'm saying? Nowhere did I say the lineup change had no effect on the team's success. All I'm saying is that the lineup change had no effect on Carlos Quentin's individual success.

I know what you are saying and we are in agreement. My comments are to the op who thought and thinks lineups don't matter and they have no bearing on the success of a team. He chooses to disregard posts by many people because he feels as tho he knows more than most. On second thought I shouldn't have posted to this thread and thought it was about what happened starting on 5/15. Sorry if my posts confused you.

PolishPower83
06-30-2008, 10:31 AM
Uh, wasn't this thread about Buehrle? You could tell he was on from the first inning last nite. I have no doubt he will be leading a White Sox playoff push...if the Twins ever stop winning.

Eddo144
06-30-2008, 11:14 AM
I know what you are saying and we are in agreement. My comments are to the op who thought and thinks lineups don't matter and they have no bearing on the success of a team. He chooses to disregard posts by many people because he feels as tho he knows more than most. On second thought I shouldn't have posted to this thread and thought it was about what happened starting on 5/15. Sorry if my posts confused you.
OK then, no worries. :smile: I was just getting confused when you were quoting my posts.

jabrch
06-30-2008, 12:17 PM
Updated - 5-1 with 16 ER in 63.2 IP for an ERA of 2.26.