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View Full Version : It's Time to Move Ramirez to the Lead Off Slot


TomBradley72
06-27-2008, 10:37 AM
When a team struggles with overall offense and team speed...you can't have a guy like Ramirez batting 9th...and in some cases not even coming up to bat until the 3rd inning. It's time to move Ramirez to the lead off slot. Move OC back to his more natural #2 position. Move AJ and his run producing abilities to his more natural position, further down in the order. You would now have two guys that can handle the bat (bunt, hit & run, etc.) at the top of the order, they can both score from 1st on a double...helps out our #3-#6 guys drive in runs.

Ramirez over the past 30 days: .361 BA (#1 on Sox), .386 OBP (#2 on Sox), 11 SO's (lowest among regulars)....he's being wasted in the #9 slot, and the team will benefit more by OC and AJ returning to their natural/historical positions in the batting order. We also have a more consistent everyday 1/2 vs. adjustments that need to be made when Hall is catching. He's not the perfect lead off hitter (would like to see him drawing more walks)...but he's the best option with this roster.

We have ther WORST 1st inning offense in the American League...it's time for a change.

soxpride724
06-27-2008, 10:42 AM
I'm all for it. Now if you can just convince Ozzie and KW....

asindc
06-27-2008, 10:44 AM
When a team struggles with overall offense and team speed...you can't have a guy like Ramirez batting 9th...and in some cases not even coming up to bat until the 3rd inning. It's time to move Ramirez to the lead off slot. Move OC back to his more natural #2 position. Move AJ and his run producing abilities to his more natural position, further down in the order. You would now have two guys that can handle the bat (bunt, hit & run, etc.) at the top of the order, they can both score from 1st on a double...helps out our #3-#6 guys drive in runs.

Ramirez over the past 30 days: .361 BA (#1 on Sox), .386 OBP (#2 on Sox), 11 SO's (lowest among regulars)....he's being wasted in the #9 slot, and the team will benefit more by OC and AJ returning to their natural/historical positions in the batting order. We also have a more consistent everyday 1/2 vs. adjustments that need to be made when Hall is catching. He's not the perfect lead off hitter (would like to see him drawing more walks)...but he's the best option with this roster.

We have ther WORST 1st inning offense in the American League...it's time for a change.

I have been thinking the same thing the past two weeks. It irritates me to no end that we struggle to manufacture runs. Alexei seems to have the temperment for the job. I say let's try it a few games before the break to see how it goes. If he struggles, then back to the 9th slot for the second half. But I agree it's worth a try.

BringBackBlkJack
06-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Makes sense to me. If anyone has deserved a demotion to the bottom of the order it would be Crede. He has looked horrific lately.

oeo
06-27-2008, 10:49 AM
If Ramirez is to be moved up, I'd rather it be to #2, but I still like AJ there. It keeps him in check, to not go into those spells where he's just trying to hit homeruns.

Also, I've yet to see Cabrera do something 'natural' in the #2 hole.

I say keep Alexei where he is for the time being. If Cabrera and AJ start struggling, then change the top of the order.

TomBradley72
06-27-2008, 11:15 AM
If Ramirez is to be moved up, I'd rather it be to #2, but I still like AJ there. It keeps him in check, to not go into those spells where he's just trying to hit homeruns.

Also, I've yet to see Cabrera do something 'natural' in the #2 hole.

I say keep Alexei where he is for the time being. If Cabrera and AJ start struggling, then change the top of the order.

I think we need AJ in a run producing slot...I also don't like having a guy as slow as AJ is at the top of the order. I'd also slot Wise in the 9th position against righties...Wise/Ramirez/Cabrera to get things going.

Our 1st inning offense is a DISASTER....it's not working. We can get an extra AB each game from our hottest hitter if we move Alexei up.

mcm3312
06-27-2008, 11:20 AM
With Swisher heating up a bit (and having the mindset of a two hitter), Cabrera coming up with clutch hits, and Quentin possibly putting too much pressure on himself that high in the order, would it be soo wrong to try out a lineup like this:
Ramirez 2b
Swisher 1b
Cabrera SS
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Crede/Ozuna Sb
Wise CF

Or maybe flip flop ramirez and cabrera. I know its not totally conventional to have such a lack of power in the third hole, but those two guys have been two of our most productive hitters and need more at bats

oeo
06-27-2008, 11:22 AM
With Swisher heating up a bit (and having the mindset of a two hitter), Cabrera coming up with clutch hits, and Quentin possibly putting too much pressure on himself that high in the order, would it be soo wrong to try out a lineup like this:
Ramirez 2b
Swisher 1b
Cabrera SS
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Crede/Ozuna Sb
Wise CF

Or maybe flip flop ramirez and cabrera. I know its not totally conventional to have such a lack of power in the third hole, but those two guys have been two of our most productive hitters and need more at bats

Quentin has been fine lately. The power hasn't been there, but he's getting his hits. The way he's squaring up on the ball again makes it look like he's about to go on another tear.

Why would you replace him with either of those two?

soxpride724
06-27-2008, 11:24 AM
With Swisher heating up a bit (and having the mindset of a two hitter), Cabrera coming up with clutch hits, and Quentin possibly putting too much pressure on himself that high in the order, would it be soo wrong to try out a lineup like this:
Ramirez 2b
Swisher 1b
Cabrera SS
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Crede/Ozuna Sb
Wise CF

Or maybe flip flop ramirez and cabrera. I know its not totally conventional to have such a lack of power in the third hole, but those two guys have been two of our most productive hitters and need more at bats[QUOTE][/QUOT

Not a bad idea either..

Mr.1Dog
06-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Also, what do you do when Konerko comes back?

mcm3312
06-27-2008, 11:24 AM
because he has a history of putting too much pressure on himself. Lately he's been improving but when he played towards the back of the order his power numbers were higher

asindc
06-27-2008, 11:46 AM
because he has a history of putting too much pressure on himself. Lately he's been improving but when he played towards the back of the order his power numbers were higher

Who exactly?

russ99
06-27-2008, 11:56 AM
I really like Alexei to stay where he's at for now, and maybe even move him above Crede, who's scuffling a bit. It's great to get some run production out of the bottom of the order.

Also, while he's been more selective at the plate of late, he's still not patient enough to move to lead off. At least not yet.

oeo
06-27-2008, 11:58 AM
Who exactly?

He's talking about Quentin.

The sample size is too small from hitting at the bottom of the order to prove that his power numbers have come down some because of 'more pressure.' He's spent most of the year batting #3.

And I think he's handled it perfectly fine. He was just hitting out of his mind for a little bit there early in the season.

GAsoxfan
06-27-2008, 12:17 PM
I would agree with moving Ramirez up in the order, but I would leave Cabrera in the leadoff spot. He's batting .304 with a .342 OBP in the leadoff spot. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Tragg
06-27-2008, 12:22 PM
When a team struggles with overall offense and team speed...you can't have a guy like Ramirez batting 9th...and in some cases not even coming up to bat until the 3rd inning. It's time to move Ramirez to the lead off slot. Move OC back to his more natural #2 position. Move AJ and his run producing abilities to his more natural position, further down in the order. You would now have two guys that can handle the bat (bunt, hit & run, etc.) at the top of the order, they can both score from 1st on a double...helps out our #3-#6 guys drive in runs.
If it is time, it's out of pure default. Cabrera is a bad leadoff hitter, but there isn't a decent one on the roster.

What Ramirez really needs is to learn the strike zone. He needs a coach who can teach him plate discpliine, or else he'll turn out like Ozzie with more power.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2008, 12:51 PM
I like Ramirez near the top of the order, but not leading off just yet. I'd go with this:

Cabrera
Ramirez
AJ (or Hall v. LHP, since he's hitting for good average, too)
Dye
Quentin
Thome
Paulie
Swisher
Crede

JB98
06-27-2008, 01:23 PM
I like Ramirez near the top of the order, but not leading off just yet. I'd go with this:

Cabrera
Ramirez
AJ (or Hall v. LHP, since he's hitting for good average, too)
Dye
Quentin
Thome
Paulie
Swisher
Crede

Hall batting third against lefties? No speed, doesn't take a walk, lots of singles, little extra-base power. Pass.

Quentin should keep the No. 3 spot. I'm in favor of moving Ramirez up to No. 2 and putting AJ sixth, where he can knock in more runs.

palehozenychicty
06-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Hall batting third against lefties? No speed, doesn't take a walk, lots of singles, little extra-base power. Pass.

Quentin should keep the No. 3 spot. I'm in favor of moving Ramirez up to No. 2 and putting AJ sixth, where he can knock in more runs.

We have very little speed as is, and having Hall up there definitely won't help this scenario.

jabrch
06-27-2008, 05:44 PM
Why can't we leave the kid where he is comfortable? There's virtually no difference between the runs the lineup scores if he hits #1 or in the bottom of the order. There is no reason to make change just for the sake of it.

BadBobbyJenks
06-27-2008, 07:35 PM
If Ramirez is to be moved up, I'd rather it be to #2, but I still like AJ there. It keeps him in check, to not go into those spells where he's just trying to hit homeruns.

Also, I've yet to see Cabrera do something 'natural' in the #2 hole.

I say keep Alexei where he is for the time being. If Cabrera and AJ start struggling, then change the top of the order.

I've been all for moving Alexei to the top of the order, but I am with you on AJ. He has been great for a while now batting there and I am not sure where I would put him if we go with Missle and OC 1 and 2.

FarWestChicago
06-28-2008, 08:30 AM
He's batting .304 with a .342 OBP in the leadoff spot. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Cabrera is a bad leadoff hitter, but there isn't a decent one on the roster.What makes him bad, Tragg? Is it that .304 average? Or is he one of your "slappers" or "hackers". What is it? :dunno:

btrain929
06-28-2008, 10:08 AM
With Swisher heating up a bit (and having the mindset of a two hitter), Cabrera coming up with clutch hits, and Quentin possibly putting too much pressure on himself that high in the order, would it be soo wrong to try out a lineup like this:
Ramirez 2b
Swisher 1b
Cabrera SS
Dye RF
Pierzynski C
Quentin LF
Thome DH
Crede/Ozuna Sb
Wise CF

Or maybe flip flop ramirez and cabrera. I know its not totally conventional to have such a lack of power in the third hole, but those two guys have been two of our most productive hitters and need more at bats

Swisher's mindset when placed at the top of the lineup = can't....swing....bat.......must.......walk......m ust.....walk.

And Quentin had 4 hits yesterday. He's been solid lately. Cabrera would be fine at the leadoff spot if he stopped swinging at the 1st damn pitch all the time.

gobears1987
06-28-2008, 11:21 AM
Ramirez should be put in the 2 hole as Cabrera is doing fine at lead-off. Besides, Ramirez's ability to simply make contact is very conducive to success in the 2 hole. See Nellie Fox.

My order would look like this:

Cabrera
Ramirez
TCQ
Dye
Thome
AJ
Swisher (been pretty good this last month)
Crede


When PK Gets back:

Cabrera
Ramirez
TCQ
Dye
PK
Thome
AJ
Crede
Swisher

I put Swisher at 9 because I would want at least some decent speed so that he doesn't slow down the top of the order.

UofCSoxFan
06-28-2008, 11:25 AM
Any word if Mrs. Alexei had her child yesterday? Obviously here's hoping wife and child are healthy and OK and hopefully Alexei will be in the lineup today.

Jeckle2000
06-28-2008, 11:36 AM
I'm not sure why some of you are complaining about the way Carlos Quentin has been playing lately. One of the main reasons he started to slump was that he fell in love with trying to hit the long ball and as a result started trying to pull everything. The fact that he just started trying to square up the ball and get hits is a good sign. The power will come on it's own. It sounds like some of you want him to just start swinging for the fences. Not only is that not responsible but it would be counter productive. He's fine exactly where he's at.

Now back to the topic at hand. Ramirez might be a good top of the order hitter one day. But right now he's worse then OC at working counts and taking walks. You need your leadoff hitter to take a few pitches. I can't see Ramirez doing that at this time. It's no the right time to make him a lead off hitter.

voodoochile
06-28-2008, 11:43 AM
I'm not sure why some of you are complaining about the way Carlos Quentin has been playing lately. One of the main reasons he started to slump was that he fell in love with trying to hit the long ball and as a result started trying to pull everything. The fact that he just started trying to square up the ball and get hits is a good sign. The power will come on it's own. It sounds like some of you want him to just start swinging for the fences. Not only is that not responsible but it would be counter productive. He's fine exactly where he's at.

Now back to the topic at hand. Ramirez might be a good top of the order hitter one day. But right now he's worse then OC at working counts and taking walks. You need your leadoff hitter to take a few pitches. I can't see Ramirez doing that at this time. It's no the right time to make him a lead off hitter.

No actually, it's because he hurt his hand. He's been very good about going up the middle and away all year. I think TCQ is about to go on another tear.

Why would we want to mess with the top 4 hitters in the lineup? They are all hitting .280 or higher with 3 of them pushing .300.

Ramirez is a speedy slap hitter who doesn't walk alot. Kind of reminds me of a guy we used to have named Ozzie or something who batted ninth and played SS. For now leave things alone would be my vote. If we can get any producation from 5-7 in this lineup, we'll be fine.

TomBradley72
06-28-2008, 11:59 AM
No actually, it's because he hurt his hand. He's been very good about going up the middle and away all year. I think TCQ is about to go on another tear.

Why would we want to mess with the top 4 hitters in the lineup? They are all hitting .280 or higher with 3 of them pushing .300.

Ramirez is a speedy slap hitter who doesn't walk alot. Kind of reminds me of a guy we used to have named Ozzie or something who batted ninth and played SS. For now leave things alone would be my vote. If we can get any producation from 5-7 in this lineup, we'll be fine.

My point in all of this, is not that OC and AJ aren't hitting well, it's how can we better take advantage of their production. I think we're better off with AJ in more of an RBI role. All those RBI opportunities that are being missed by our 5-7 hitters...I think his ~.300 average would be better utilized farther down in the order. And I believe Alexei's production would have a greater impact in either the lead off or #2 slot. In addition when the 3-6 guys get a single or a double...there's a better chance of an RBI when there's a little more speed at the top of the line up.

TomBradley72
06-28-2008, 12:03 PM
Ramirez is a speedy slap hitter who doesn't walk alot. Kind of reminds me of a guy we used to have named Ozzie or something who batted ninth and played SS. For now leave things alone would be my vote. If we can get any producation from 5-7 in this lineup, we'll be fine.

Can't argue the point on walks...but Alexei's SLG Pct. is .421, Ozzie's career slg. was .338...Alexei can drive the ball pretty well.

voodoochile
06-28-2008, 12:56 PM
Can't argue the point on walks...but Alexei's SLG Pct. is .421, Ozzie's career slg. was .338...Alexei can drive the ball pretty well..

You are correct. It was a crappy statement.

Can Richar play 3B?

DickAllen72
06-28-2008, 01:07 PM
Any word if Mrs. Alexei had her child yesterday? Obviously here's hoping wife and child are healthy and OK and hopefully Alexei will be in the lineup today.
Baby boy.

Nellie_Fox
06-29-2008, 12:55 AM
Baby boy.Alexei Jr., apparently. :happybday :happyguy: :party:

Tragg
06-29-2008, 01:03 AM
What makes him bad, Tragg? Is it that .304 average? Or is he one of your "slappers" or "hackers". What is it? :dunno:
It would be his .330 OBP, which isn't good in any spot in the order, but which is particularly poor at leadoff. That's what makes him a bad leadoff hitter. I don't know where you're coming up with a .304 average - it certainly isn't anwhere close to Cabrera's batting average at any time the last month.

Nellie_Fox
06-29-2008, 01:05 AM
It would be his .330 OBP, which isn't good in any spot in the order, but which is particularly poor at leadoff. That's what makes him a bad leadoff hitter. I don't know where you're coming up with a .304 average - it certainly isn't anwhere close to Cabrera's batting average at any time the last month.He had a bad start. What's his OBP this month?

Tragg
06-29-2008, 01:08 AM
Can't argue the point on walks...but Alexei's SLG Pct. is .421, Ozzie's career slg. was .338...Alexei can drive the ball pretty well.
Alexei does drive the ball well. But he swings at nearly everything: off his shoetops, at his eyebrows, he doesn't care, he'll give it a rip. And he hits a lot of that junk. Some patience, something Ozzie didn't have a lick of, would help him immensely and could turn him into, perhaps, an all star. And eventually, these pitchers are going start throwing him nothing but junk.

FarWestChicago
06-29-2008, 01:13 AM
He had a bad start. What's his OBP this month?Tragg doesn't look at facts or stats. He just whines about "slappers" and "hackers". :D:

He's basically just a crotchety old guy like Lip. :happyguy:

Tragg
06-29-2008, 01:16 AM
He had a bad start. What's his OBP this month?
I'm sure it's high - he's had a nice month. He also has a 11.5 year career obp of .321 - bad.

Maybe he's a new man in his 12th season at the age of 33.....

FarWestChicago
06-29-2008, 01:19 AM
I'm sure it's high - he's had a nice month. He also has a 11.5 year career obp of .321 - bad.

Maybe he's a new man in his 12th season at the age of 33.....So you are bitching about your theory, not reality. :rolling:

Tragg
06-29-2008, 01:20 AM
Tragg doesn't look at facts or stats.

This is where I get his OBP numbers I quoted in several posts http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5900


Tell us about that .304 batting average again?

FarWestChicago
06-29-2008, 01:24 AM
This is where I get his OBP numbers I quoted in several posts http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5900


Tell us about that .304 batting average again?Do you want some cheese with that whine, Tragg? :whiner: :whiner:

And tell the truth. Is it the "slapping" or "hacking" that pisses you off the most? :tongue:

I would agree with moving Ramirez up in the order, but I would leave Cabrera in the leadoff spot. He's batting .304 with a .342 OBP in the leadoff spot. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Nellie_Fox
06-29-2008, 01:30 AM
Alexei does drive the ball well. But he swings at nearly everything: off his shoetops, at his eyebrows, he doesn't care, he'll give it a rip. And he hits a lot of that junk. Some patience, something Ozzie didn't have a lick of, would help him immensely and could turn him into, perhaps, an all star. And eventually, these pitchers are going start throwing him nothing but junk.You've seen a different situation than I have. I've seen a guy who's adapting to major league pitching much faster than they are adapting to him. He's already light years better than he was when the season started, and is improving every day. He's a baseball-smart kid who I believe will eventually add more plate discipline as he understands more about how they're approaching him.

Tragg
06-29-2008, 01:31 AM
Do you want some cheese with that whine, Tragg? :whiner: :whiner:

And tell the truth. Is it the "slapping" or "hacking" that pisses you off the most? :tongue:
.342 OBP, earned over a month and a half or so, is low for a leadoff hitter. His career OBP, earned over 11.5 years, is even lower. He's the best we have - I don't want to move him.

Am I supposed to level personal attacks back it you - is that how this game is played?

FarWestChicago
06-29-2008, 01:34 AM
.342 OBP, earned over a month and a half or so, is low for a leadoff hitter. His career OBP, earned over 11.5 years, is even lower. He's the best we have - I don't want to move him.

Am I supposed to level personal attacks back it you - is that how this game is played?Tragg, you're a crotchety old man. You're always pissed off; just like Lip. That's fine. I'm and old geezer, too. I just have other things to be pissed off about. You and Lip crack me up. I'll admit, I'm jealous of you guys. If the Sox are the most depressing things in your lives, you have it better than me. :D:

Tragg
06-29-2008, 01:42 AM
You've seen a different situation than I have. I've seen a guy who's adapting to major league pitching much faster than they are adapting to him. He's already light years better than he was when the season started, and is improving every day. He's a baseball-smart kid who I believe will eventually add more plate discipline as he understands more about how they're approaching him.
I like him a lot. And I agree - he can hit anything. The same pitch that froze TCQ in the first I think for a called strike 3, Ramirez hit off the wall in the 2nd. I wouldn't move him up to leadoff yet, though.

I put my real birthdate on the site so, yep, Far West, I am an old fart. And I get fired up.

TomBradley72
06-29-2008, 01:27 PM
Alexei does drive the ball well. But he swings at nearly everything: off his shoetops, at his eyebrows, he doesn't care, he'll give it a rip. And he hits a lot of that junk. Some patience, something Ozzie didn't have a lick of, would help him immensely and could turn him into, perhaps, an all star. And eventually, these pitchers are going start throwing him nothing but junk.

I think he has shown he can hit "junk"...the pitchers have already tried switching almost completely to breaking stuff...he's made the adjustments.

You're right about the patience side of the equation.

For my money...if he put together a complete season playing the way he has since the San Francisco series...he'd be an All Star.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2008, 01:48 PM
I'd like to point out that batting Hall third in any lineup is just...just...amazing.

Keep it up Frater.

broker3d
06-29-2008, 01:57 PM
After the first time around the lineup, batting 9th is not much different than batting leadoff. Having speed at the 9 spot is also very important. Probably the 2nd best spot to have speed, after the leadoff spot. You'd like speed at #2 but bat control and the the ability to hit behind the runner is more important.

One thing about keeping Alexei at the bottom is that it has worked. You never know if a kid would put too much pressure on him at the top of the lineup. I don't see Alexei doing that but it must be taken into consideration.

Alexei will eventually be at the top of the lineup, but i'm not sure if it is time yet.

TomBradley72
06-29-2008, 02:21 PM
After the first time around the lineup, batting 9th is not much different than batting leadoff. Having speed at the 9 spot is also very important. Probably the 2nd best spot to have speed, after the leadoff spot. You'd like speed at #2 but bat control and the the ability to hit behind the runner is more important.


Except he may not come to bat until the 3rd inning and will have fewer ABs than the lead off hitter. The White Sox have BY FAR the worst 1st inning offensive production in the American League.

BadBobbyJenks
06-29-2008, 03:15 PM
After the first time around the lineup, batting 9th is not much different than batting leadoff. Having speed at the 9 spot is also very important. Probably the 2nd best spot to have speed, after the leadoff spot. You'd like speed at #2 but bat control and the the ability to hit behind the runner is more important.

One thing about keeping Alexei at the bottom is that it has worked. You never know if a kid would put too much pressure on him at the top of the lineup. I don't see Alexei doing that but it must be taken into consideration.

Alexei will eventually be at the top of the lineup, but i'm not sure if it is time yet.

Alexei has been a baseball player since he could walk. This guy just knows what he is doing out there, I don't think moving up in the lineup would put any pressure on him.

Frater Perdurabo
06-29-2008, 07:34 PM
I'd like to point out that batting Hall third in any lineup is just...just...amazing.

Keep it up Frater.

Hall is batting .317 this year; .429 against LHP. What's so wrong with having a .429 average (.571 SLG) v. LHP in the 3-hole when the Sox are facing LHP? Especially when doing so allows the rest of the hitters to get more accustomed to hitting in a set place in the lineup?

The Twins do something similar with Joe Mauer (who obviously is better than AJ) and Mike Redmond (Hall is better than Redmond); both bat third. This keeps the rest of the Twins hitters hitting the same spots so they are more comfortable in their roles. I think is one of several factors that makes that Twins offense more efficient and productive despite the fact that as a team they don't have as much power or talent as the Sox hitters.

Frontman
06-29-2008, 07:40 PM
Right now, I'd leave Alexei where he is; let him continue to mature to the MLB game. Hitting 9th is giving him solid results. I'd prefer to have a speed/speed of Alexei followed by Cabrerra; and the way its set now that is what happens.

Craig Grebeck
06-29-2008, 10:56 PM
Hall is batting .317 this year; .429 against LHP. What's so wrong with having a .429 average (.571 SLG) v. LHP in the 3-hole when the Sox are facing LHP? Especially when doing so allows the rest of the hitters to get more accustomed to hitting in a set place in the lineup?

The Twins do something similar with Joe Mauer (who obviously is better than AJ) and Mike Redmond (Hall is better than Redmond); both bat third. This keeps the rest of the Twins hitters hitting the same spots so they are more comfortable in their roles. I think is one of several factors that makes that Twins offense more efficient and productive despite the fact that as a team they don't have as much power or talent as the Sox hitters.

Fun with sample sizes!

I'd rather have, I don't know, a good hitter in the 3 hole.