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kba
06-26-2008, 10:42 AM
Does anybody know the true details about Thome's contract option? Everything (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080218&content_id=2378846&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) I've read (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-19-sox-chicagofeb19,0,770345.story) before this week said he needs 1100 plate appearances in 2007-08 for the contact to vest for '09. He had 536 last year, so he would need 564 PA this year.

But this week, both Gonzalez (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080624-chicago-whitesox-mark-gonazles,1,5664856.story) and Cowley (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1025567,CST-SPT-soxnt26.article) are saying he needs 664 plate appearances this year (1200 for 2007-2008). With 84 games left (plus the suspended game vs. Baltimore), that's the difference between needing 292 or 392 more PAs.

Does anybody know which is correct?

eriqjaffe
06-26-2008, 10:44 AM
Does anybody know the true details about Thome's contract option? Everything (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080218&content_id=2378846&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) I've read (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-19-sox-chicagofeb19,0,770345.story) before this week said he needs 1100 plate appearances in 2007-08 for the contact to vest for '09. He had 536 last year, so he would need 564 PA this year.

But this week, both Gonzalez (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080624-chicago-whitesox-mark-gonazles,1,5664856.story) and Cowley (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1025567,CST-SPT-soxnt26.article) are saying he needs 664 plate appearances this year (1200 for 2007-2008). With 84 games left (plus the suspended game vs. Baltimore), that's the difference between needing 292 or 392 more PAs.

Does anybody know which is correct?I'd be more apt to assume the Sox own site has the right information.

DSpivack
06-26-2008, 10:44 AM
2009 option guaranteed (http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-white-sox.html) with 600 PAs in 2007 or 1,100 PAs in 2007-08

russ99
06-26-2008, 10:50 AM
From Cot's which is unofficial, but pretty reliable:

Jim Thome dh-1b
6 years/$85M (2003-08), plus $13M 2009 club option

acquired in trade 11/05, with Phillies paying $22M to White Sox as part of deal (about half of remaining salaries & buyout)
$10M signing bonus (paid in 4 installments of $2.5M, 2003-06)
03:$9.5M, 04:$10.5M, 05:$11.5M, 06:$12.5M, 07:$14M, 08:$14M, 09:$13M club option ($3M buyout)
2009 option guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2007 or 1,100 PAs in 2007-08
The big thing in my book is that Phillies are not paying anything to next year's contract if the option is picked up, so his entire $13M salary would be on the books next year.

By my calculations, the Phillies would pick up $1.75M of the buyout, which makes that route even more appealing to the Sox.

BRDSR
06-26-2008, 11:02 AM
By my calculations, the Phillies would pick up $1.75M of the buyout, which makes that route even more appealing to the Sox.

There is no baseball-related reason that the White Sox would want to pay Thome $13 million next year. We could probably get the same production from an established veteran for half that and could very well get the same production from Fields (who, however, will likely be needed at third base when Crede is not resigned.)

However, it would be sad to see the White Sox organization manipulate this situation to avoid Thome getting 1,100 plate appearances. He's headed to the hall of fame and, by all accounts, is one of the most upstanding men in baseball. The Sox are between a rock and hard place here, in my opinion.

btrain929
06-26-2008, 11:26 AM
Hopefully with 2-3 weeks left in September, we'll have a 9 game lead and can "rest" him for October play, keeping him fresh, and not letting him reach his PA's.

Foulke You
06-26-2008, 11:37 AM
Big Jim is at 227 AB so far which would bring his '07-'08 total to 763. There is a very good chance he won't make it to 1100 ABs. I realize that interleague is keeping that total down but Thome probably will have 1 or 2 of his back flare ups over the course of the season as well. I can see his total falling just short around 1050 or so.

IF the Sox make it, do postseason ABs count towards his contract I wonder?

Foulke You
06-26-2008, 11:40 AM
There is no baseball-related reason that the White Sox would want to pay Thome $13 million next year. We could probably get the same production from an established veteran for half that and could very well get the same production from Fields (who, however, will likely be needed at third base when Crede is not resigned.)
I can't disagree with that synopsis and I'm a big Thome fan. I wouldn't mind seeing a scenario where the Sox can bring Thome back at a reduced rate loaded with incentives. Something like a $3 million base salary and incentives for RBIs, HRs, all star game, etc. If you look at the DH stat comparison in baseball, despite Jim's plate struggles this year, he is still among the top 3 or 4 DHs in the AL. The power #s are there, the batting avg is way down though. However, he is not worth $13 million anymore.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-26-2008, 11:51 AM
Big Jim is at 227 AB so far which would bring his '07-'08 total to 763. There is a very good chance he won't make it to 1100 ABs. I realize that interleague is keeping that total down but Thome probably will have 1 or 2 of his back flare ups over the course of the season as well. I can see his total falling just short around 1050 or so.

IF the Sox make it, do postseason ABs count towards his contract I wonder?

plate appearances, not at bats - he's at 272 right now after playing in 70 out of the 77 games we've played in. he's on pace to play in 147 games this year - which puts him on pace for 571 plate appearances. at that pace, it really only comes down to sitting him for 2 or 3 games to make sure he doesn't hit the mark necessary to kick in the option.

Foulke You
06-26-2008, 11:58 AM
plate appearances, not at bats - he's at 272 right now after playing in 70 out of the 77 games we've played in. he's on pace to play in 147 games this year - which puts him on pace for 571 plate appearances. at that pace, it really only comes down to sitting him for 2 or 3 games to make sure he doesn't hit the mark necessary to kick in the option.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was just thinking ABs for some reason. I agree though, with his regular "rest" days as well as the occasional Thome back flare up...I don't think it will be an issue for that option to kick in.

russ99
06-26-2008, 12:53 PM
I can't disagree with that synopsis and I'm a big Thome fan. I wouldn't mind seeing a scenario where the Sox can bring Thome back at a reduced rate loaded with incentives. Something like a $3 million base salary and incentives for RBIs, HRs, all star game, etc. If you look at the DH stat comparison in baseball, despite Jim's plate struggles this year, he is still among the top 3 or 4 DHs in the AL. The power #s are there, the batting avg is way down though. However, he is not worth $13 million anymore.

I'd be all for that, but I also think it's probably best for the Sox to move Paul or Jermaine into the DH role for 2009 and add another solid outfielder with Swish at 1B or Quentin in RF. Jim might also retire if he's not going to be a full-time player any more.

If that were something both the Sox and Jim would want to do, I could see something being negotiated well before the option deadline, especially if Jim attained or were close to that PA mark.

BRDSR
06-26-2008, 12:55 PM
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was just thinking ABs for some reason. I agree though, with his regular "rest" days as well as the occasional Thome back flare up...I don't think it will be an issue for that option to kick in.

Yeah, but those regular rest days aren't going to look so regular in September if Thome is within striking distance of 1,100. Might be a totally normal day to rest him, but it'll still raise some eyebrows (at least...god only knows what people like Moronotti would say).

Thigpen "57"
06-26-2008, 12:57 PM
There is no baseball-related reason that the White Sox would want to pay Thome $13 million next year. We could probably get the same production from an established veteran for half that and could very well get the same production from Fields (who, however, will likely be needed at third base when Crede is not resigned.)

However, it would be sad to see the White Sox organization manipulate this situation to avoid Thome getting 1,100 plate appearances. He's headed to the hall of fame and, by all accounts, is one of the most upstanding men in baseball. The Sox are between a rock and hard place here, in my opinion.

Very true. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the fans and organization, do not see Thome having $13 million in value for next season.

He has had a rough season thus far, and he could very well be getting "old". I still have to have to wonder though if he could break out with a big second half to help move this offense for an extended period of time, a la '06.

Definitley dont wont to see one of the best and most gentleman like players in baseball get purposely benched to avoid the option, but I would hate to see that mula get wasted on a possibly washed up DH. That chunk of change could be allocated nicely for '09 and beyond.

Only time will tell. :smile:

Time will tell

I_Liked_Manuel
06-26-2008, 01:55 PM
it's going to be virtually impossible to sit him if we're in a tight race for the division in august and september, and he's hot - if they're going to rest him, they have to start doing it asap

btrain929
06-26-2008, 01:59 PM
it's going to be virtually impossible to sit him if we're in a tight race for the division in august and september, and he's hot - if they're going to rest him, they have to start doing it asap

He just had an entire week off. It's bad to say, but hopefully his back flares up and he needs a 15 day DL stint. Then it'll force KW to acquire a bat at the trading deadline that we desperately need.

KyWhiSoxFan
06-26-2008, 02:20 PM
I can't disagree with that synopsis and I'm a big Thome fan. I wouldn't mind seeing a scenario where the Sox can bring Thome back at a reduced rate loaded with incentives. Something like a $3 million base salary and incentives for RBIs, HRs, all star game, etc. If you look at the DH stat comparison in baseball, despite Jim's plate struggles this year, he is still among the top 3 or 4 DHs in the AL. The power #s are there, the batting avg is way down though. However, he is not worth $13 million anymore.

I don't want to see Thome back next year at any price. I've seen enough aging, one-dimensional, slow-footed hitters the past five years to last a lifetime.

bigdommer
06-26-2008, 02:24 PM
The way I see it, the Sox are in a pretty decent situation. Scenario #1 has Thome healthy and playing to his norms with the Sox: 280/410/580 in which case he's probably worth $13M for one year. Scenario #2 has Thome healthy and struggling, in which case the Sox would be justified in platooning him against righties and his option does not vest (this is unlikely as his career numbers, young and old, suggest that he produces as long as he is healthy). Scenario #3 has Thome struggling to stay healthy and his option does not vest.

Madscout
06-26-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't want to see Thome back next year at any price. I've seen enough aging, one-dimensional, slow-footed hitters the past five years to last a lifetime.
Word. Even though it is sad, I won't be complaining if the Sox bench Thome so that option can't kick in. As nice as he is, business is business, and Jim should know that by now.

bigdommer
06-26-2008, 02:46 PM
I am not a big Thome guy, but I just don't know how the Sox can replace his production. You can't just put his April in a vacuum and say he's done. His 30 day numbers are right at his averages which are pretty impressive. To replace his production in the middle of the order you either have to promote from within or overpay for a free agent and hope he pans out. The Sox aren't fortunate enough to have Pujols, Cabrera, or Ryan Howard in their farm system and I would rather pay Thome $13MM for one year than pay Jason Giambi, Richie Sexson, or Adam Dunn $50MM for 3 years.

If you don't keep Thome and Konerko is truly done, I am not sure if you can compete with Dye, AJP, and Josh Fields in the middle of your order, especially when you are going to have offensive holes at CF (BA/Owens), SS (Cabrera gone), and DH (Thome gone).

Lip Man 1
06-26-2008, 06:22 PM
There was a story on this either this morning or yesterday I think it was by Mark Gonzales.

Basically the story said it doesn't appear likely Thome is going to get the number of plate appearances needed for the next year to kick in.

So the Sox are going to have to make a decision.

Right now unless he's willing to take a huge discount and is willing to only occasionally DH or PH I'd say it is time to part company.

There very fewer better people around the game but the bottom line is about production and wins and losses.

Lip

Lip Man 1
06-26-2008, 06:26 PM
Bigdommer:

The Sox can "replace" his production by moving away from the "all or nothing" approach and creating runs by having two guys in the lineup who can steal and two guys in the lineup who can handle a bat.

The five-some of Dye, A.J. Fields, Konerko and Swisher will be more then adequate as far as hitting home runs.

In fact their production might go up because pitchers will have to throw more fastballs due to the fact that in this scenario, the Sox actually have some guys who can steal bases.

Keep throwing sliders in the dirt or off speed breaking stuff with a base stealer and he'll quickly be at third base.

Lip

russ99
06-26-2008, 06:38 PM
Bigdommer:

The Sox can "replace" his production by moving away from the "all or nothing" approach and creating runs by having two guys in the lineup who can steal and two guys in the lineup who can handle a bat.

The five-some of Dye, A.J. Fields, Konerko and Swisher will be more then adequate as far as hitting home runs.

In fact their production might go up because pitchers will have to throw more fastballs due to the fact that in this scenario, the Sox actually have some guys who can steal bases.

Keep throwing sliders in the dirt or off speed breaking stuff with a base stealer and he'll quickly be at third base.

Lip

The optimal replacement would be that kind of guy in CF, moving Dye or Konerko to DH and moving Swisher out of center.

The only problem is there really isn't a free agent that fits the bill, so Kenny would have to give up some of our best prospects to get one.

Gavin
06-26-2008, 07:07 PM
The optimal replacement would be that kind of guy in CF, moving Dye or Konerko to DH and moving Swisher out of center.

The only problem is there really isn't a free agent that fits the bill, so Kenny would have to give up some of our best prospects to get one.

What prospects?

kba
06-26-2008, 08:04 PM
There was a story on this either this morning or yesterday I think it was by Mark Gonzales.

Basically the story said it doesn't appear likely Thome is going to get the number of plate appearances needed for the next year to kick in.



That's why I asked the original question. Both Gonzales and Cowley wrote this week that Thome needs 664 plate appearances this year, which would be pretty hard for him to attain. But all the other sources quoted on this thread say it's 564, which would easier. At first, I thought the 664 was just a mistake by Gonzales, but when Cowley used that number, too, I started to wonder if the other sources were wrong.

lpneck
06-26-2008, 08:56 PM
Hopefully with 2-3 weeks left in September, we'll have a 9 game lead and can "rest" him for October play, keeping him fresh, and not letting him reach his PA's.

Eight Men Out (2058 remake)

Jim Thome: "It's about my option, Mr. Reinsdorf. You promised me a $13 million dollar option if I had 564 plate appearances this year and I think I deserve it."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "Kenny, how many plate appearances did Mr. Thome have for us this year?"

Kenny Williams: "563, Mr. Reinsdorf."

Jim Thome: "You told Ozzie to sit me the last two weeks of the season to get ready for the playoffs. That cost me 12 more starts; I know I would have had at least two more plate appearances."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "We had to get your legs ready for the playoffs."

Jim Thome: "I deserve that option."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "563 is not 564, Jim. You will only get the money you deserve."

Jim Thome: "It's your ball club, Mr. Reinsdorf."

btrain929
06-26-2008, 08:58 PM
Eight Men Out (2058 remake)

Jim Thome: "It's about my option, Mr. Reinsdorf. You promised me a $13 million dollar option if I had 564 plate appearances this year and I think I deserve it."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "Kenny, how many plate appearances did Mr. Thome have for us this year?"

Kenny Williams: "563, Mr. Reinsdorf."

Jim Thome: "You told Ozzie to sit me the last two weeks of the season to get ready for the playoffs. That cost me 12 more starts; I know I would have had at least two more plate appearances."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "We had to get your legs ready for the playoffs."

Jim Thome: "I deserve that option."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "563 is not 564, Jim. You will only get the money you deserve."

Jim Thome: "It's your ball club, Mr. Reinsdorf."

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

StillMissOzzie
06-27-2008, 01:28 AM
I'd be all for that, but I also think it's probably best for the Sox to move Paul or Jermaine into the DH role for 2009 and add another solid outfielder with Swish at 1B or Quentin in RF. Jim might also retire if he's not going to be a full-time player any more.

If that were something both the Sox and Jim would want to do, I could see something being negotiated well before the option deadline, especially if Jim attained or were close to that PA mark.

I am already on record somewhere on WSI in predicting that JD is the DH for 2009 for the last year of his contract, and PK will be the DH in 2010, the last year of HIS contract.

I can't disagree with that synopsis and I'm a big Thome fan. I wouldn't mind seeing a scenario where the Sox can bring Thome back at a reduced rate loaded with incentives. Something like a $3 million base salary and incentives for RBIs, HRs, all star game, etc. If you look at the DH stat comparison in baseball, despite Jim's plate struggles this year, he is still among the top 3 or 4 DHs in the AL. The power #s are there, the batting avg is way down though. However, he is not worth $13 million anymore.

DHs are not going for $13M / year just yet

Very true. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the fans and organization, do not see Thome having $13 million in value for next season.

He has had a rough season thus far, and he could very well be getting "old". I still have to have to wonder though if he could break out with a big second half to help move this offense for an extended period of time, a la '06.

Definitley dont wont to see one of the best and most gentleman like players in baseball get purposely benched to avoid the option, but I would hate to see that mula get wasted on a possibly washed up DH. That chunk of change could be allocated nicely for '09 and beyond.

Only time will tell. :smile:

Time will tell
I can see Thome grabbing some bench against a few tough southpaws, pretty much assuring that he won't make the PAs to vest that option. I would find it tacky and distasteful if the benching is more overt than that, but it would not surprise me, either. So let's win it all this year for Jim!

SMO
:gulp:

sox1970
06-28-2008, 03:11 PM
Eight Men Out (2058 remake)

Jim Thome: "It's about my option, Mr. Reinsdorf. You promised me a $13 million dollar option if I had 564 plate appearances this year and I think I deserve it."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "Kenny, how many plate appearances did Mr. Thome have for us this year?"

Kenny Williams: "563, Mr. Reinsdorf."

Jim Thome: "You told Ozzie to sit me the last two weeks of the season to get ready for the playoffs. That cost me 12 more starts; I know I would have had at least two more plate appearances."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "We had to get your legs ready for the playoffs."

Jim Thome: "I deserve that option."

Jerry Reinsdorf: "563 is not 564, Jim. You will only get the money you deserve."

Jim Thome: "It's your ball club, Mr. Reinsdorf."

That's good stuff. Well done.

286 PA's to go.

Save McCuddy's
06-28-2008, 11:38 PM
The five-some of Dye, A.J. Fields, Konerko and Swisher will be more then adequate as far as hitting home runs.



This post as well as an earlier entry forgets one significant piece of the club's future in TCQ.

gobears1987
06-28-2008, 11:41 PM
Hopefully with 2-3 weeks left in September, we'll have a 9 game lead and can "rest" him for October play, keeping him fresh, and not letting him reach his PA's.
Why does this sound oh so familiar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Cicotte)?

gobears1987
06-28-2008, 11:45 PM
I thought that there was also a buyout option to his contract that the Sox can exercise. If he gets the PAs necessary, a buyout would be the wise choice.

Nellie_Fox
06-29-2008, 12:47 AM
I thought that there was also a buyout option to his contract that the Sox can exercise. If he gets the PAs necessary, a buyout would be the wise choice.No, if he reaches the PA, 2009 becomes a guaranteed year instead of an option. The Sox can buy out the option, but not the guarantee. If they could, it wouldn't be "guaranteed."

SoxFan64
06-30-2008, 11:25 AM
As much as I enjoy Thome his option might make him too expensive for just a DH.

I like moving Josh Fields into the DH role and use the Thome money on resigning Crede. That seems a better use of money than the finding an OF and moving Dye to DH.

btrain929
08-26-2008, 04:43 PM
I figured I'd bump up this thread to get people's take as this gets closer. I believe the number is 564 PA's is needed this year for Thome's option to kick in. He is somewhere around 480 right now, meaning anywhere from 80-90 PA's will get his option turned into a guaranteed year. There are 31 games left. My guess is he would have to get hurt or sit against virtually every lefty we face for him NOT to his option.

I'm still in the camp that $13 million is too much to pay him for next year for his production as a DH. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out...

Edit: another thread is talking about this as well. A merge might be coming, and I'll be alright with it :)

2906
08-26-2008, 04:56 PM
Here is a link from ESPN when the trade was done in 2005.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2234843

It says the Phillies kicked in (or would kick in) $22 million of the remaining contract. So some of that salary relief would come in 2009 because it hasn't all been spent.

My recollection is the White Sox wanted cost certainty, which is not a foreign concept to the Sox brass. I also seem to recall they (the Sox) would be paying no more than $8 million or at most $9 million per season for Thome.

I don't think there's any question he'll be back for 2009.

soltrain21
08-26-2008, 05:00 PM
As much as I enjoy Thome his option might make him too expensive for just a DH.

I like moving Josh Fields into the DH role and use the Thome money on resigning Crede. That seems a better use of money than the finding an OF and moving Dye to DH.


We aren't a good team next year with Fields at DH. And Thome money to resign Crede? How much do you think Crede is worth? Right now it isn't much.

btrain929
08-26-2008, 05:01 PM
Here is a link from ESPN when the trade was done in 2005.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2234843

It says the Phillies kicked in (or would kick in) $22 million of the remaining contract. So some of that salary relief would come in 2009 because it hasn't all been spent.

My recollection is the White Sox wanted cost certainty, which is not a foreign concept to the Sox brass. I also seem to recall they (the Sox) would be paying no more than $8 million or at most $9 million per season for Thome.

I don't think there's any question he'll be back for 2009.

Is there any websites or places where it breaks down how much of Thome's contract has been picked up each yr by the Phils? This way we can add all that up, subtract it from 22, and that will be the amount going towards his '09 salary.

Genius, I know, I know.....:D:

doublem23
08-26-2008, 05:08 PM
I don't want to see Thome back next year at any price. I've seen enough aging, one-dimensional, slow-footed hitters the past five years to last a lifetime.

I also have no need for a guy hitting .253/.376/.525.

PaleHoser
08-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Agree with most of this. Although he's a class act, I would really like to see the Sox get younger and faster.

Short of an injury though, I see him getting his plate appearances and guarantee his option. If it is obvious the Sox are sitting him down to keep the option from kicking in, his agent and/or the MLBPA will get involved.

soltrain21
08-26-2008, 05:25 PM
Agree with most of this. Although he's a class act, I would really like to see the Sox get younger and faster.

Short of an injury though, I see him getting his plate appearances and guarantee his option. If it is obvious the Sox are sitting him down to keep the option from kicking in, his agent and/or the MLBPA will get involved.

And if the Sox did this I would have a hard time rooting for them.

russ99
08-26-2008, 05:30 PM
From Cot's which is unofficial, but pretty reliable:

Jim Thome dh-1b
6 years/$85M (2003-08), plus $13M 2009 club option

acquired in trade 11/05, with Phillies paying $22M to White Sox as part of deal (about half of remaining salaries & buyout)
$10M signing bonus (paid in 4 installments of $2.5M, 2003-06)
03:$9.5M, 04:$10.5M, 05:$11.5M, 06:$12.5M, 07:$14M, 08:$14M, 09:$13M club option ($3M buyout)
2009 option guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2007 or 1,100 PAs in 2007-08



Since this thread has been brought back up, here's my calculations as to what the Sox are on the hook for next year:

2006 - 12.5M salary (Phillies paid half - 6.25M)
2007 - 14 M salary (Phillies paid half - 7M)
2008 - 14 M salary (Phillies paid half - 7M)

Total Phillie payout (so far) 20.25M - total sent in trade 22M.

So there's 1.75M left to either be applied to Jim's 13M option for next season, or used towards the buyout:

If Jim makes the PA target - Sox pay him $11.25M next season - which is $4.25M more than the Sox are paying this year.
If Jim misses the PA target - Sox either buyout for 1.25M or pay him $11.25M next season.

I wonder if Jim makes the PA target, the Sox could non-tender him in December and then re-sign him to a lower number - but something tells me the MLBPA wouldn't like that one bit...

jabrch
08-26-2008, 05:43 PM
There is no baseball-related reason that the White Sox would want to pay Thome $13 million next year. We could probably get the same production from an established veteran for half that and could very well get the same production from Fields (who, however, will likely be needed at third base when Crede is not resigned.)


Despite being awful in April and May, only the following AL hitters have a higher OPS than Thome on the season. (not that I believe you can evaluate a player using a single stat - but it can give you a directional comparison to others....

Bradley
Rodriguez
Quentin
Youk
Drew
Manny
Huff
Dye
Sizemore
Hamilton

Which of those are you going to get on the Sox next year?

Let's take the SLG out of the equation and look at his OBP - an area where he adds a ton of value and is underrated

Ahead of Thome on the year, desipte his bad April and May...
Bradley
Mauer
Drew
Markakis
Rodriguez
Manny
TCQ
Morneu
Damon
Youk
Sizemore
Giambi
Roberts
Upton
Granderson


Slim pickings if you are looking to improve on Thome there.


I'm not sure you can replace Jim's production @ DH next year as easily as you think. .253/.376/.525 is awful productive. .254/.380/.561 (since the break) is even harder to replace.

btrain929
08-26-2008, 05:49 PM
Despite being awful in April and May, only the following AL hitters have a higher OPS than Thome on the season. (not that I believe you can evaluate a player using a single stat - but it can give you a directional comparison to others....

Bradley
Rodriguez
Quentin
Youk
Drew
Manny
Huff
Dye
Sizemore
Hamilton

Which of those are you going to get on the Sox next year?

Let's take the SLG out of the equation and look at his OBP - an area where he adds a ton of value and is underrated

Ahead of Thome on the year, desipte his bad April and May...
Bradley
Mauer
Drew
Markakis
Rodriguez
Manny
TCQ
Morneu
Damon
Youk
Sizemore
Giambi
Roberts
Upton
Granderson


Slim pickings if you are looking to improve on Thome there.


I'm not sure you can replace Jim's production @ DH next year as easily as you think. .253/.376/.525 is awful productive. .254/.380/.561 (since the break) is even harder to replace.

I agree you might not be able to replace what he's done, but I think what some people are saying is if we can get a player to contribute at DH with decent numbers, maybe slightly worse than Thome's, but is a lot cheaper than Thome, that would be better for the team. We can used the saved money to improve other parts of the team.

2906
08-26-2008, 05:49 PM
Since this thread has been brought back up, here's my calculations as to what the Sox are on the hook for next year:

2006 - 12.5M salary (Phillies paid half - 6.25M)
2007 - 14 M salary (Phillies paid half - 7M)
2008 - 14 M salary (Phillies paid half - 7M)

Total Phillie payout (so far) 20.25M - total sent in trade 22M.

So there's 1.75M left to either be applied to Jim's 13M option for next season, or used towards the buyout:

If Jim makes the PA target - Sox pay him $11.25M next season - which is $4.25M more than the Sox are paying this year.
If Jim misses the PA target - Sox either buyout for 1.25M or pay him $11.25M next season.



Great info, thanks for posting it, but I don't think those numbers are quite right. I think the Sox paid just a bit more for his salary in 2006, 2007, 2008, leaving a bit more in the pot to help with 2009.

jabrch
08-26-2008, 06:04 PM
I agree you might not be able to replace what he's done, but I think what some people are saying is if we can get a player to contribute at DH with decent numbers, maybe slightly worse than Thome's, but is a lot cheaper than Thome, that would be better for the team. We can used the saved money to improve other parts of the team.

Like who? And for how much cheaper? And how much worse would that get us? Which FA would you speculate (based on the 09 FA list) would fit that bill? I have looked - and haven't seen one.

Optipessimism
08-26-2008, 06:19 PM
I don't know about younger, but I'd like to get faster in certain areas with players in their primes in order to better balance the lineup and give the team more ways to win when the offense is struggling yet the pitching is getting it done.

That said, you have to keep in mind that doing it at the expense of Thome leaves us with a huge hole in the lineup. It's not just that he gets on base a ton and hits for big, game-changing power, it's also that with Griffey gone we will not have a left-handed power bat. That will hurt. Remember how bad we all wanted a lefty power bat before Thome, and remember how long it took us to get one? I say keep Big Jim, or bring back Griffey to DH instead, and if a power hitter is moved to accommodate a lead-off hitter or something, hopefully it is a RH one.

russ99
08-26-2008, 06:53 PM
Great info, thanks for posting it, but I don't think those numbers are quite right. I think the Sox paid just a bit more for his salary in 2006, 2007, 2008, leaving a bit more in the pot to help with 2009.

You might be right, but salary information's not released to the press, so who's to say. I'm going by Cot's info and the idea that the Phillies were paying for half his salary and buyout, but that's also subjective.

The point of the giving the club option/buyout was so the Phillies could ensure that Jim would stay healthy and productive. Depending on the Sox take on whether or not he's in their plans or not for 2009, they certainly could have payed more in each year, especially this year since they weren't on the hook for the bonus as in previous years.

I guess we'll have to see how this all plays out.

russ99
08-26-2008, 06:55 PM
I don't know about younger, but I'd like to get faster in certain areas with players in their primes in order to better balance the lineup and give the team more ways to win when the offense is struggling yet the pitching is getting it done.

That said, you have to keep in mind that doing it at the expense of Thome leaves us with a huge hole in the lineup. It's not just that he gets on base a ton and hits for big, game-changing power, it's also that with Griffey gone we will not have a left-handed power bat. That will hurt. Remember how bad we all wanted a lefty power bat before Thome, and remember how long it took us to get one? I say keep Big Jim, or bring back Griffey to DH instead, and if a power hitter is moved to accommodate a lead-off hitter or something, hopefully it is a RH one.

I'd also wonder if Kenny's going to repeat the cycle and break away from a power bat next offseason. Leadoff is still a huge need, especially if Cabrera leaves as a FA and if the Sox can get a really good leadoff hitter and steal threat, I'd think Kenny would part with one power bat, Jim and Paul being the prime suspects. I also doubt that Griffey will be back.

Brian26
08-26-2008, 07:55 PM
I'm not sure you can replace Jim's production @ DH next year as easily as you think. .253/.376/.525 is awful productive. .254/.380/.561 (since the break) is even harder to replace.

There's no guarantee Thome's going to continue to put up productive numbers, especially when you consider his age and the fact that he's been in the league since '91. Power hitters like Thome seem to lose their bat speed and their eye over night, and we saw a preview of that in April and May. Common sense tells you this might be the logical and economically sound time to cut ties.

Craig Grebeck
08-26-2008, 09:18 PM
Please, for the love of God keep our only good left handed bat.

mjmcend
08-26-2008, 09:49 PM
Common sense tells you this might be the logical and economically sound time to cut ties.

Except for the fact that, barring an injury or unethical and self defeating behavior on the Sox, Thome will be guaranteed his contract next year. The only way he won't be on the team next year is if we trade him which I find highly unlikely.

jabrch
08-26-2008, 09:53 PM
There's no guarantee Thome's going to continue to put up productive numbers, especially when you consider his age and the fact that he's been in the league since '91. Power hitters like Thome seem to lose their bat speed and their eye over night, and we saw a preview of that in April and May. Common sense tells you this might be the logical and economically sound time to cut ties.

Of course there is no guarantee. But there is no reason to beleive he can't do what he is doing today - and since it is nearly 100% sure that his guarantee will kick in, we don't have much a choice anyhow.

Personally - I am happy with that. I like what Thome brings to the table in the middle of the order.

KyWhiSoxFan
08-26-2008, 09:57 PM
Please, for the love of God keep our only good left handed bat.

Dewayne Wise?

HebrewHammer
08-26-2008, 10:04 PM
If I'm not mistaken, and I may be, but as of right now Jim only needs 97 more PA's to get his option guaranteed.

palehozenychicty
08-26-2008, 10:28 PM
I'm okay with Thome staying as long as we make a clear decision to part with Konerko. We really don't need Thome/Konerko/Griffey/Swisher on one team. They're all good guys and have great moments, but this team will need to diversify its lineup.

WhiteSoxOnly
08-26-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm okay with Thome staying as long as we make a clear decision to part with Konerko. We really don't need Thome/Konerko/Griffey/Swisher on one team. They're all good guys and have great moments, but this team will need to diversify its lineup.

And break up our 400 meter relay team ? :o:

UofCSoxFan
08-27-2008, 01:23 AM
I'm okay with Thome staying as long as we make a clear decision to part with Konerko. We really don't need Thome/Konerko/Griffey/Swisher on one team. They're all good guys and have great moments, but this team will need to diversify its lineup.

Unfortunately Konerko has full no trade rights being a 10 5 player. It won't be easy to get rid of him...although I agree that moving Swisher to frist and having a speedy CF that could leadoff would be huge.

Nellie_Fox
08-27-2008, 01:28 AM
Unfortunately Konerko has full no trade rights being a 10 5 player.Not to mention that he would have absolutely no trade value. Who do you think wants the current Paulie at $12M per? And what do you think they'd give up for him?

BadBobbyJenks
08-27-2008, 02:11 AM
Ah yes, the Sox need to get faster by letting go of their DH???? I cant wait to see Thome back next season.

mjmcend
08-27-2008, 03:19 AM
I'm okay with Thome staying as long as we make a clear decision to part with Konerko. We really don't need Thome/Konerko/Griffey/Swisher on one team. They're all good guys and have great moments, but this team will need to diversify its lineup.

Griffey is the one who will be gone since he will be a FA (after the buyout). Does anyone actually think we will sign him?

Whitesoxfan23
08-27-2008, 03:35 AM
I would even say that there is absolutely zero chance that they re-sign Griffey. There is no reason to. We need to get a quality CF in the Offseason.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 01:35 AM
Entering today's action, Thome needed 29 plate appearances to guarantee his contract for next year. I don't know how many PA he had today between the two games, but I'd say the number is now down near 20. It's a virtual lock.

DSpivack
09-15-2008, 01:38 AM
Entering today's action, Thome needed 29 plate appearances to guarantee his contract for next year. I don't know how many PA he had today between the two games, but I'd say the number is now down near 20. It's a virtual lock.

Just checked, Thome had 8 PAs today, so the number is now 21. Thome isn't going anywhere next year. I don't even really understand why people want him gone, he's about what you want and would expect from a DH.

Noneck
09-15-2008, 01:39 AM
Entering today's action, Thome needed 29 plate appearances to guarantee his contract for next year. I don't know how many PA he had today between the two games, but I'd say the number is now down near 20. It's a virtual lock.
He had 8 today, so his bingo # is 21 after today.

sox1970
09-15-2008, 01:41 AM
Just checked, Thome had 8 PAs today, so the number is now 21. Thome isn't going anywhere next year. I don't even really understand why people want him gone, he's about what you want and would expect from a DH.

I was definitely in the anti-Thome group earlier in the season. He's made some nice adjustments at the plate, by getting away from the plate a little more. He's the DH in 2009. No doubt.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2008, 01:47 AM
Wfan 23:

Actually the Sox do have interest in Griffey as a part time / power bat from the left side but it will be at their asking price. Don't be surprised if he doesn't retire, if he's back next season but in a limited role at a GREATLY reduced price tag.

Lip

btrain929
09-15-2008, 01:49 AM
Now it's just a matter of whether or not we get any more money from PHI to help with Thome's vesting option. I haven't been able to find any clear-cut answers online.

btrain929
09-15-2008, 01:51 AM
Wfan 23:

Actually the Sox do have interest in Griffey as a part time / power bat from the left side but it will be at their asking price. Don't be surprised if he doesn't retire, if he's back next season but in a limited role at a GREATLY reduced price tag.

Lip

Isn't there a rule where if we declined his '09 option and he became a FA, that we couldn't negotiate with him again until May or June 1st or something?

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 02:02 AM
Now it's just a matter of whether or not we get any more money from PHI to help with Thome's vesting option. I haven't been able to find any clear-cut answers online.I heard Stone say that Philadelphia was on the hook for almost half of the option year if it became guaranteed. I don't know where he got his information.

nasox
09-15-2008, 02:09 AM
I heard Stone say that Philadelphia was on the hook for almost half of the option year if it became guaranteed. I don't know where he got his information.

That's half of $13 million, right?

guillensdisciple
09-15-2008, 02:14 AM
if the sox win the whole thing I think Griffey is going to ride this one into the sunset, and what a hell of a ride it has been for him.

Has anyone thought what jersey Thome might retire with when he gets into the hall?

I hope the sox but that would seem impossible since he played the majority of his career in Cleveland. Sox fans have treated him extremely well and from what he sais he loves it here so I was thinking that he might just pull a fast one.

DSpivack
09-15-2008, 02:41 AM
if the sox win the whole thing I think Griffey is going to ride this one into the sunset, and what a hell of a ride it has been for him.

Has anyone thought what jersey Thome might retire with when he gets into the hall?

I hope the sox but that would seem impossible since he played the majority of his career in Cleveland. Sox fans have treated him extremely well and from what he sais he loves it here so I was thinking that he might just pull a fast one.

It doesn't matter what jersey Thome picks, it's not his decision to make. That said, he's going in the Hall an Indian.

chisoxfanatic
09-15-2008, 02:44 AM
It doesn't matter what jersey Thome picks, it's not his decision to make. That said, he's going in the Hall an Indian.
What if he wins a World Series here? :cool:

gobears1987
09-15-2008, 03:01 AM
If Griffey plays next year, I think it will probably be for Seattle.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 03:04 AM
It's not his jersey that gets displayed on his HOF plaque, it's his cap.

The HOF reserves the right to decide, but they do take the player's preference into consideration. Since he gets booed every time he goes back to Cleveland, he might not want to have that cap on his plaque. On the other hand, that might be his peace offering.

esbrechtel
09-15-2008, 09:12 AM
If Griffey plays next year, I think it will probably be for Seattle.

I can't see Griffey playing for a non-contender....he wants a ring so he can retire, maybe he will stick around but I'm not counting on it....If he does stick around he better be at soxfest

UofCSoxFan
09-15-2008, 09:39 AM
I'm glad some of you are getting away from the "I hope we get rid of Jim Thome" camp. I mean some people were hoping we'd dump Thome at the end of the year and keep Griffey at 16 million. Insane.

Thome still has a ton left.

jabrch
09-15-2008, 10:20 AM
I heard Stone say that Philadelphia was on the hook for almost half of the option year if it became guaranteed. I don't know where he got his information.

That would be awesome.

For all the silly anti-Thome sentiment, Thome at about 6.5mm for 1 year would be a heck of a value.

itsnotrequired
09-15-2008, 10:46 AM
That would be awesome.

For all the silly anti-Thome sentiment, Thome at about 6.5mm for 1 year would be a heck of a value.

If they are picking up more of his option than originally thought, it will only mean the Sox have been paying more out of their own pockets for his services over the last 3 seasons. Thome was owed $40.5 million for 06-08 as well as $2.5 million of his signing bonus that was paid in 2006. He has a $3 million buyout or $13 million option for 2009.

Philly sent over $22 million in the deal but it isn't clear if they had already paid that $2.5 million bonus or how the dollars broke down per year.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 12:33 PM
If they are picking up more of his option than originally thought, it will only mean the Sox have been paying more out of their own pockets for his services over the last 3 seasons. Thome was owed $40.5 million for 06-08 as well as $2.5 million of his signing bonus that was paid in 2006. He has a $3 million buyout or $13 million option for 2009.

Philly sent over $22 million in the deal but it isn't clear if they had already paid that $2.5 million bonus or how the dollars broke down per year.Maybe they only have to send the rest if the option becomes guaranteed? It wouldn't make sense for them to pay it before they knew if it became guaranteed.

itsnotrequired
09-15-2008, 12:51 PM
Maybe they only have to send the rest if the option becomes guaranteed? It wouldn't make sense for them to pay it before they knew if it became guaranteed.

I can't see the Phillies agreeing to send more than the originally agreed $22 million if the option kicks in. Agreed that it wouldn't make sense to pay on the option. My guess is only the $3 million buyout was included.

btrain929
09-15-2008, 12:56 PM
Someone needs to call into the Score when Stoney is on and ask him about this. I always seem to be at work when he's on with Mully/Hanley, Holmes, etc.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2008, 01:02 PM
I can't see the Phillies agreeing to send more than the originally agreed $22 million if the option kicks in. Agreed that it wouldn't make sense to pay on the option. My guess is only the $3 million buyout was included.What I was trying to say is that the original deal might have called for $22M then, with them still being on the hook if and only if the option got guaranteed.

btrain929
09-15-2008, 01:06 PM
What I was trying to say is that the original deal might have called for $22M then, with them still being on the hook if and only if the option got guaranteed.

I hear ya. Especially at the time of the trade with Thome coming off injury. The idea of him hitting those PA's in '07-'08 had to seem impossible, so I could see the Phils saying "sure, IF he hits his PA's, we'll throw you X-$$$ towards the option" thinking there was little chance of it happening.

itsnotrequired
09-15-2008, 01:11 PM
What I was trying to say is that the original deal might have called for $22M then, with them still being on the hook if and only if the option got guaranteed.

I suppose that is possible.

:dunno: