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View Full Version : Sox vs. Never Before Seen Pitchers


nug0hs
06-25-2008, 11:25 PM
So, once again, the Sox have been shut down by a pitcher they have never seen before. Why does this always seem to happen to us? Here are some stats from my database, focusing only on losses this season:

-April 14 vs. OAK -- Loss to rookie LHP Greg Smith, making only the 2nd start of his career
-May 12 @ LAA -- Loss to rookie RHP Nick Adenhart, who had only started 2 games prior
-June 16 vs COL -- Loss to RHP Aaron Cook, we put up 10 hits, but it was all from our former-NL players who had seen him before
-June 25 @ LAD -- Loss to LHP Eric Stults, who had only started 8 games prior, but gave up only 4 hits in this game


...and I'm sure that wont be it for us this season...

Parrothead
06-25-2008, 11:29 PM
You are going to need a bigger page if you go back any amount of time. I don't know why teams just don't bring up someone the Sox have never seen. It seems like a guaranteed win for the opponent. If this happen, the Sox maybe become the only 0 - 162 team.

southsideirish71
06-25-2008, 11:30 PM
And we get our first look at Clayton Kershaw tomorrow.

Scottiehaswheels
06-25-2008, 11:30 PM
Because Greg Walker sucks? :shrug: But we're 4th in the AL in runs scored!

Could be we need more/better advance scouts too?

nug0hs
06-25-2008, 11:41 PM
Could be we need more/better advance scouts too?

If you remember correctly, scouting director David Wilder was fired on Friday, May 16th out of nowhere...although it is rumored to be related to the distribution of signing bonuses of Latin American prospects....but I wonder if this could be related? It seems like we have had very poor scouting reports about never seen starting pitchers the past few years...

JB98
06-25-2008, 11:43 PM
If you remember correctly, scouting director David Wilder was fired on Friday, May 16th out of nowhere...although it is rumored to be related to the distribution of signing bonuses of Latin American prospects....but I wonder if this could be related? It seems like we have had very poor scouting reports about never seen starting pitchers the past few years...

No, not related.

Huisj
06-25-2008, 11:53 PM
And we get our first look at Clayton Kershaw tomorrow.

But sometimes it's different with guys who are actually good and have a lot of hype. They bombed Verlander the first time they faced him (and usually still do). The guys who shut them down are the unknown mediocre guys who never pan out to be anything better than average or worse (like Tim Stauffer (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN200506110.shtml)).

southsideirish71
06-25-2008, 11:56 PM
But sometimes it's different with guys who are actually good and have a lot of hype. They bombed Verlander the first time they faced him (and usually still do). The guys who shut them down are the unknown mediocre guys who never pan out to be anything better than average.

Verlander is the type of pitcher we have success against. Right hander, who pounds the zone with fastballs.

Kershaw has a big bending curveball, and a good changeup and throws hard oh and throws left handed.

ChiSoxGirl
06-26-2008, 12:19 AM
So, once again, the Sox have been shut down by a pitcher they have never seen before. Why does this always seem to happen to us? Here are some stats from my database, focusing only on losses this season:

-April 14 vs. OAK -- Loss to rookie LHP Greg Smith, making only the 2nd start of his career
-May 12 @ LAA -- Loss to rookie RHP Nick Adenhart, who had only started 2 games prior
-June 16 vs COL -- Loss to RHP Aaron Cook, we put up 10 hits, but it was all from our former-NL players who had seen him before
-June 25 @ LAD -- Loss to LHP Eric Stults, who had only started 8 games prior, but gave up only 4 hits in this game


...and I'm sure that wont be it for us this season...

If you remember correctly, scouting director David Wilder was fired on Friday, May 16th out of nowhere...although it is rumored to be related to the distribution of signing bonuses of Latin American prospects....but I wonder if this could be related? It seems like we have had very poor scouting reports about never seen starting pitchers the past few years...

Did you just call into Rongey's show? The last caller just said basically what you did in these two posts.

BadBobbyJenks
06-26-2008, 12:22 AM
How can I find out how we have faired against pitchers we haven't seen in the Greg Walker era?

Optipessimism
06-26-2008, 12:34 AM
Verlander is the type of pitcher we have success against. Right hander, who pounds the zone with fastballs.

Kershaw has a big bending curveball, and a good changeup and throws hard oh and throws left handed.
What's the over/under on how many times Hawk says Kershaw has "Nintendo stuff" tomorrow night?

FedEx227
06-26-2008, 01:18 AM
How can I find out how we have faired against pitchers we haven't seen in the Greg Walker era?

Well off the top of my head to help you out... Kason Gabbard, John Rheinecker, Dough Waechter and those are just the ones I was in attendance for. Some others can probably give you more.

TDog
06-26-2008, 03:09 AM
So, once again, the Sox have been shut down by a pitcher they have never seen before. Why does this always seem to happen to us? Here are some stats from my database, focusing only on losses this season:

-April 14 vs. OAK -- Loss to rookie LHP Greg Smith, making only the 2nd start of his career
-May 12 @ LAA -- Loss to rookie RHP Nick Adenhart, who had only started 2 games prior
-June 16 vs COL -- Loss to RHP Aaron Cook, we put up 10 hits, but it was all from our former-NL players who had seen him before
-June 25 @ LAD -- Loss to LHP Eric Stults, who had only started 8 games prior, but gave up only 4 hits in this game


...and I'm sure that wont be it for us this season...

I don't know if that list is a complete list of Sox losses to pitchers the Sox have never faced before. For that matter, I don't know if the following completes the list of starters the Sox have faced for the first time in games they have won this season:

Dana Eveland, April 15, left-handed starter, pitched 4.2 innings for Oakland, gave up 4 runs in 4-1 loss.

Jeff Niemann, April 18, right-handed starter, pitched 3.1 innings for Tampa Bay, gave up 8 runs in 9-3 loss.

Jonathan Sanchez, May 16, left-handed starter, pitched 6.2 innings for Giants, gave up 2 runs in 2-0 loss.

Matt Cain, May 18, right-handed starter, pitched 7 innings for Giants, gave up 6 runs, no decision in 13-8 loss.

Tom Gorzelanny, June 18, left-handed starter, pitched 6 innings for Pirates, gave up 4 runs in 8-2 loss.

Phil Dumatrait, June 19, left-handed starter, pitched 5 innings for Pirates, gave up 9 runs in 13-8 loss.

The above list includes a no-decision for the starter in a game the Sox won. It also includes a few wins against southpaws, including a win against a pitcher who shut the Sox down, but didn't shut the Sox out. Sanchez, like Cain, if a very good pitcher.

The losses stand out. Still, it looks like the Sox have more wins against starters they haven't seen before. Thursday they will face another.

If Clayton Kershaw pitches well, he could be tough.

SoxGirl4Life
06-26-2008, 07:01 AM
I don't know if that list is a complete list of Sox losses to pitchers the Sox have never faced before. For that matter, I don't know if the following completes the list of starters the Sox have faced for the first time in games they have won this season:

Dana Eveland, April 15, left-handed starter, pitched 4.2 innings for Oakland, gave up 4 runs in 4-1 loss.

Jeff Niemann, April 18, right-handed starter, pitched 3.1 innings for Tampa Bay, gave up 8 runs in 9-3 loss.

Jonathan Sanchez, May 16, left-handed starter, pitched 6.2 innings for Giants, gave up 2 runs in 2-0 loss.

Matt Cain, May 18, right-handed starter, pitched 7 innings for Giants, gave up 6 runs, no decision in 13-8 loss.

Tom Gorzelanny, June 18, left-handed starter, pitched 6 innings for Pirates, gave up 4 runs in 8-2 loss.

Phil Dumatrait, June 19, left-handed starter, pitched 5 innings for Pirates, gave up 9 runs in 13-8 loss.

The above list includes a no-decision for the starter in a game the Sox won. It also includes a few wins against southpaws, including a win against a pitcher who shut the Sox down, but didn't shut the Sox out. Sanchez, like Cain, if a very good pitcher.

The losses stand out. Still, it looks like the Sox have more wins against starters they haven't seen before. Thursday they will face another.

If Clayton Kershaw pitches well, he could be tough.

Silly facts

oeo
06-26-2008, 08:09 AM
So, once again, the Sox have been shut down by a pitcher they have never seen before. Why does this always seem to happen to us? Here are some stats from my database, focusing only on losses this season:

-April 14 vs. OAK -- Loss to rookie LHP Greg Smith, making only the 2nd start of his career
-May 12 @ LAA -- Loss to rookie RHP Nick Adenhart, who had only started 2 games prior
-June 16 vs COL -- Loss to RHP Aaron Cook, we put up 10 hits, but it was all from our former-NL players who had seen him before
-June 25 @ LAD -- Loss to LHP Eric Stults, who had only started 8 games prior, but gave up only 4 hits in this game


...and I'm sure that wont be it for us this season...

Both Smith and Cook are having good years.

Stults shut down the Reds in his start prior to last night. Maybe we're just catching guys when they're pitching well? Nah...couldn't be.

Why is it that a lot of people around here have this idea that every pitcher we face, sucks? Seriously, unless he's won a Cy Young, WSI thinks the Sox should kick the living hell out of the guy.

bigsoxfan420
06-26-2008, 08:13 AM
I just don't get this phenomenon, it doesn't seem to matter who is on the team, they just can't beat pitchers they haven't seen. IF the Sox ever make the playoffs again the opposing team should just put in pitchers from the Minors.

kitekrazy
06-26-2008, 09:09 AM
Maybe they should ignore the scouting reports.

nug0hs
06-26-2008, 09:12 AM
Did you just call into Rongey's show? The last caller just said basically what you did in these two posts.

Yep, that was me...unfortunately he didn't quite like my analysis...oh well

bigsoxfan420
06-26-2008, 09:12 AM
Maybe they should ignore the scouting reports.

Or actually read them.

kevingrt
06-26-2008, 09:26 AM
Or actually read them.

Whatever they are doing they should try the complete opposite next time out. Like this Friday versus Gallagher. He is not good and we should at least score five runs off him. If we don't there will be a lot of mad Sox fans around these places.

nug0hs
06-26-2008, 09:28 AM
Yeah, I don't know what it is. I tried to explain to Rongey that there is some kind of pattern going on here, be he just chalked it up to it being our usual crappy offense and thought it has nothing to do with preparation...if thats the case then how are other teams hitting these guys but we are getting shut down?

Law11
06-26-2008, 09:30 AM
Then todays game should be another let down if this holds up..

nevr say dye sox
06-26-2008, 09:33 AM
I usually don't bet baseball or against the Sox...However I think if Kershaw is + on the ML tonight it is a must bet.

Lorenzo Barcelo
06-26-2008, 09:36 AM
Yep, that was me...unfortunately he didn't quite like my analysis...oh well

He doesn't like anyone's analysis if its slightly negative toward the organization in any way. You should have been a kool-aid drinking positive caller so you could have gotten that free gift card he gives out. :cool:

eriqjaffe
06-26-2008, 09:48 AM
Like this Friday versus Gallagher.Sometimes, I get the feeling that this (http://gallaghersmash.com/) Gallagher could shut down the Sox.

SoxGirl4Life
06-26-2008, 09:57 AM
You guys are being riduculous. There was a post earlier in this thread that lists all the wins the Sox have had against pitchers they haven't seen before. And guess what? There's more wins than losses. :thud:

But yeah, lets just whine about this all day long, even if its not true. It must make you all feel better

chaerulez
06-26-2008, 09:58 AM
I know this whole no name pitcher thing gets to people, but I'm pretty sure the Sox don't get beat by inexperienced or generally bad starters any more often than the rest of the MLB. Remember when Aaron Small started off 8-0 or so with the Yankees, I don't recall him beating the Sox and he had to pull that off against someone. Or that Masterson guy with the Red Sox, he's put up numbers out of nowhere against teams that aren't the Sox. We remember these games because we expect to win those games because of the opposing starting pitcher, but sometimes you just lose games like that. After all Todd Ritchie did manage some wins while he was in a Sox uniform.

Law11
06-26-2008, 11:26 AM
You guys are being riduculous. There was a post earlier in this thread that lists all the wins the Sox have had against pitchers they haven't seen before. And guess what? There's more wins than losses. :thud:

But yeah, lets just whine about this all day long, even if its not true. It must make you all feel better

If they win today you can tell us I told u so..
If not we get to wallow.. until tomorrow.:D:

SoxGirl4Life
06-26-2008, 11:34 AM
If they win today you can tell us I told u so..
If not we get to wallow.. until tomorrow.:D:


Deal :tongue:

FielderJones
06-26-2008, 11:37 AM
You guys are being riduculous. There was a post earlier in this thread that lists all the wins the Sox have had against pitchers they haven't seen before. And guess what? There's more wins than losses. :thud:

But yeah, lets just whine about this all day long, even if its not true. It must make you all feel better

It's called selective recollection. The negative emotions associated with losing to a previously unseen pitcher are more powerful than the positive emotions associated with beating a previously unseen pitcher. And it's endemic on WSI. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
06-26-2008, 11:37 AM
Oeo:

Just wondering...

How does de la Rosa and his 8.13 ERA before the Sox game factor into your "analysis?"

If the Sox are catching guys at the wrong time, it sure seems to happen a lot to them and then said guys seem to get pounded to hell and back by a ton of other MLB teams.

Just coincidence I guess.

Lip

TDog
06-26-2008, 11:52 AM
Yeah, I don't know what it is. I tried to explain to Rongey that there is some kind of pattern going on here, be he just chalked it up to it being our usual crappy offense and thought it has nothing to do with preparation...if thats the case then how are other teams hitting these guys but we are getting shut down?

Who has hit Stults this season? Since he was recalled, he has given up one earned run in two quality starts. Against the Reds, he pitched six shutout innings before opening the seventh with a walk, an error on what might have been a doubleplay and an infield single and being replaced to by reliever.

Last week, the Sox beat two left-handed starters they had never seen before, and hit them hard in the process. The real pattern isn't that the Sox can't beat pitchers they haven't seen before. It is that they often lose when the opposing pitcher pitches a great game against them. That applies to no-names and stars.

Kershaw has a very good curveball. He averages almost a strikeout an inning and gets more ground balls than fly balls. He was unimpressive against the Indians, giving up two in the third and one in the fourth. He gave up another run in the sixth after he was out of the game for relief after walking the first two hitters of the inning. Control has been a problem, although he only walked one in his major league debut a month ago when he gave up two runs to the Cardinals in six innings. His best start came in Detroit a couple of weeks ago, when he gave up no runs on two hits and two walks in four innings before a 47-minute rain delay forced him out of the game in the eventual Tigers win. The Dodgers believe this kid will be a very good pitcher, and he could be tough today if he throws strikes.

Fifteen years ago this month, I was at a Sox game in Anaheim where the Sox scored five in the top of the first. Bell capped the inning with a grand slam. The Angels fan sitting next to me asked who was pitching for the Sox. When I told him it was Wilson Alvarez, he said the Angels had a chance to win in a slugfest because he had never heard of Wilson Alvarez. He didn't say anything when I told him Alvarez had thrown a no-hitter two years earlier.

That no-hitter came in his first White Sox start, against the Orioles whose fans had never heard of Wilson Alvarez either.

Dan the Man
06-26-2008, 12:17 PM
I just hope the Sox don't make Kershaw look like Andy Sonnanstine.

KyWhiSoxFan
06-26-2008, 12:35 PM
I just hope the Sox don't make Kershaw look like Andy Sonnanstine.

They won't. They'll make him look like Don Drysdale.

SoxGirl4Life
06-26-2008, 06:58 PM
If they win today you can tell us I told u so..
If not we get to wallow.. until tomorrow.:D:


I told you so :tongue:

TDog
06-26-2008, 09:27 PM
For the third time in two weeks, the Sox beat a southpaw starter they had never faced before. Still, the next time the Sox prepare to face a pitcher they have never seen before, especially if he's left handed, you'll read whining WSI posts about how the Sox can't beat pitchers they have never seen before, especially if they are left handed. Other teams beat these guys, so why can't the White Sox?

Oddly enough, the Dodgers were shut out Thursday by a southpaw starter they had never seen before and the Sox bullpen. Many Dodgers fans had never even heard of John Danks before today's game, but they looked him up and saw he went 6-13 last year. That told them all they needed to know.

FielderJones
06-26-2008, 10:42 PM
Oddly enough, the Dodgers were shut out Thursday by a southpaw starter they had never seen before and the Sox bullpen. Many Dodgers fans had never even heard of John Danks before today's game, but they looked him up and saw hie went 6-13 last year. That told them all they needed to know.

:thumbsup:

Gold.

Ranger
06-27-2008, 01:43 AM
He doesn't like anyone's analysis if its slightly negative toward the organization in any way. You should have been a kool-aid drinking positive caller so you could have gotten that free gift card he gives out. :cool:

Apparently my guy Lorenzo has Hear-What-You-Want-To-Hear Disease. You can get that fixed by listening. It's fairly easy.

BadBobbyJenks
06-27-2008, 01:46 AM
Apparently my guy Lorenzo has Hear-What-You-Want-To-Hear Disease. You can get that fixed by listening. It's fairly easy.

I have to say I am a big fan of the show, but the other day a caller was saying Swisher was a better defender than Konerko and you dismissed him then he brought up the point that Stone said the same thing, but you still blew him off.

Lip Man 1
06-27-2008, 11:32 AM
From the Tribune:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080626-hitting-chicago-white-sox,1,483048.story

Lip

SoxGirl4Life
06-27-2008, 11:33 AM
From the Tribune:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080626-hitting-chicago-white-sox,1,483048.story

Lip


Isn't the first time the trib perpetuated a story that wasn't true.

Ranger
06-27-2008, 05:40 PM
I have to say I am a big fan of the show, but the other day a caller was saying Swisher was a better defender than Konerko and you dismissed him then he brought up the point that Stone said the same thing, but you still blew him off.

I don't think you or the caller was paying attention to what Stone was saying. He said Swisher was a good defender. He did NOT say Swisher was better than Konerko. I think you're both confused.

Swisher is not a better firstbaseman at this point of his career than Konerko. He might turn out to be very good but he does make a lot of mistakes like straying too far from the bag or letting the ball play him on a shorthop from an infielder. Konerko right now is simply smoother at first than Swisher.

TDog
06-27-2008, 06:02 PM
From the Tribune:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080626-hitting-chicago-white-sox,1,483048.story

Lip

And yet, in the last two weeks, the Sox have three wins and just one loss against left-handed starters they have never seen before.

Some people around here seem to believe the Sox don't have a prayer whenever they go up against a southpaw.