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BringBackBlkJack
06-24-2008, 03:56 PM
I had a hypothetical scenario that I was curious as to how it would be handled. Please, WSI baseball gods, bestow your knowledge on me.

The bases are loaded and the pitcher throws one in the dirt. Instead of giving a fresh ball to the catcher to throw back, he decides to throw it himself. The throw is a terrible throw that causes the pitcher to lunge for the ball and it tips off his glove and rolls between the infielders causing the man at 3rd to score.

Is the ball considered in play once it touches the pitcher's glove therefore causing the run to count?

Also, what if the throw was way off and it never touches the pitcher, but the man at 3rd advances to score? Do the same rules apply? I'm interested to see your interpretations.

eriqjaffe
06-24-2008, 03:58 PM
I had a hypothetical scenario that I was curious as to how it would be handled. Please, WSI baseball gods, bestow your knowledge on me.

The bases are loaded and the pitcher throws one in the dirt. Instead of giving a fresh ball to the catcher to throw back, he decides to throw it himself. The throw is a terrible throw that causes the pitcher to lunge for the ball and it tips off his glove and rolls between the infielders causing the man at 3rd to score.

Is the ball considered in play once it touches the pitcher's glove therefore causing the run to count?

Also, what if the throw was way off and it never touches the pitcher, but the man at 3rd advances to score? Do the same rules apply? I'm interested to see your interpretations.I highly doubt the ball would be considered in play, otherwise umpires could directly influence the outcome of a game by their actions, rather than judgement.

gogosox16
06-24-2008, 04:00 PM
I had a hypothetical scenario that I was curious as to how it would be handled. Please, WSI baseball gods, bestow your knowledge on me.

The bases are loaded and the pitcher throws one in the dirt. Instead of giving a fresh ball to the catcher to throw back, he decides to throw it himself. The throw is a terrible throw that causes the pitcher to lunge for the ball and it tips off his glove and rolls between the infielders causing the man at 3rd to score.

Is the ball considered in play once it touches the pitcher's glove therefore causing the run to count?

Also, what if the throw was way off and it never touches the pitcher, but the man at 3rd advances to score? Do the same rules apply? I'm interested to see your interpretations.
I'm assuming he is the umpire and if so then the play is dead and it is not resumed until the home plate umpire resumes play. If you ever watch when a ball hits the dirt the umpire will call time to switch the balls and then put back in play once the pitchers on the mound and batters in the box

Paulwny
06-24-2008, 04:14 PM
I'm not positive, but I don't believe the umps throw the ball to the pitcher when there are runners on base. They only throw to the pitcher when the bases are empty.

Iwritecode
06-24-2008, 04:26 PM
FWIW, when I played and ended up on third base, I would get a lead about halfway between third base and home after the pitch. Most of the time the catcher wasn't paying attention and as soon as he threw the ball back to the pitcher, I'd take off for home.

I don't think the pitch hitting the ground makes it a dead ball.

Luke
06-24-2008, 04:28 PM
My interpretation is that the ball was taken out of play the same way it would as if it were a foul ball. I would say the ball is not back into play until the pitcher has straddled the rubber.

pierzynski07
06-24-2008, 04:36 PM
If the umpire is throwing a ball, then play would have to be dead. However, if it's a catcher throwing it back, then it's all fair game.

In fact, this is how a game ended awhile back. It was Angles vs. Athletics (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK200508110.shtml). Tie game, runners on first and third, bottom of the ninth. Two outs. The first pitch is thrown and it's a ball. Runner takes second on "indifference". The pitcher is angry (it is KRod BTW) because he thought it was a good pitch. Anyway, he loses his focus at that point, and when the ball was thrown back, he missed the catch. Runner at third scores. Ballgame.

RTI_SoxFan
06-24-2008, 04:38 PM
FWIW, when I played and ended up on third base, I would get a lead about halfway between third base and home after the pitch. Most of the time the catcher wasn't paying attention and as soon as he threw the ball back to the pitcher, I'd take off for home.

I don't think the pitch hitting the ground makes it a dead ball.

I hope you are referring to some sort of little league and nothing more because that should never, ever happen in any league other than little league.

BringBackBlkJack
06-24-2008, 04:46 PM
I'm assuming he is the umpire and if so then the play is dead and it is not resumed until the home plate umpire resumes play. If you ever watch when a ball hits the dirt the umpire will call time to switch the balls and then put back in play once the pitchers on the mound and batters in the box

I have noticed the ump make a motion when switching balls but I never see anything indicating that the "time" has been lifted. Maybe that's just because once the ball gets to the pitcher the camera shifts to them.

If that is the case, could there be an issue if the throw was good but the pitcher just misplayed it? I would have to agree with another poster that it would seem risky for an ump to even take that risk by in a sensitive situation throwing the ball himself rather than giving it to the catcher.

MeteorsSox4367
06-24-2008, 04:53 PM
In the games I've umped (Little League, Pony League, Senior League), if there's a deadball situation like that, I'll throw the ball to the pitcher, wait until he and the hitter are set and then say 'OK, play.' while then pointing to the pitcher to let everyone know we're back in play.

hose
06-24-2008, 05:47 PM
5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher’s plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession.

hose
06-24-2008, 06:49 PM
You make the call:

It's the top of the 8th inning and the Cubs are winning 7-1. Lou Pinella decides to get Marmol some work and has him start the inning.

Marmol is all over the place and throws 3 pitches to OC that aren't within 5 feet of home plate . Lou goes out to the mound to calm Marmol down. Marmol walks OC and the proceeds to walk AJ on 4 pitches. TCQ steps up to the plate and works the count full and grounds into a double play with OC and AJ being called out.

Dye hits a broken bat seeing eye single and Swisher gets on with a dropped third strike on the catcher. Bases are loaded with 2 outs and the Cubs still have a 7-1 lead.

Crede hits a routine grounder to 3rd and Ramirez boots it and the Sox score 1 run and still have the bases loaded.

Alexie hits a line drive one hopper to the left fielder and one more run scores making it 7-3.

BA hits a grounder between short and third and Alexie beats the force throw to second and another run scores.

Thome pinch hits for the pitchers spot and gets hit by a pitch forcing in another run .

Now the score is 7-5 and the Sox have batted around with OC stepping up to the plate to face Marmol again.

Pinella is steaming mad and starts walking to the mound to make a pitching change. Cowboy Joe West warns Lou not to go to the mound. Lou ignores West and goes toward the mound for the ball and signals to the bullpen for the right hander.

What is the correct call for the umpire to make?

scarsofthumper
06-24-2008, 08:31 PM
http://www.willhines.net/spitemag/bile/lineup/art/billy.jpg

Where's Billy Heywood when you need him?

pierzynski07
06-24-2008, 08:59 PM
You make the call:

It's the top of the 8th inning and the Cubs are winning 7-1. Lou Pinella decides to get Marmol some work and has him start the inning.

Marmol is all over the place and throws 3 pitches to OC that aren't within 5 feet of home plate . Lou goes out to the mound to calm Marmol down. Marmol walks OC and the proceeds to walk AJ on 4 pitches. TCQ steps up to the plate and works the count full and grounds into a double play with OC and AJ being called out.

Dye hits a broken bat seeing eye single and Swisher gets on with a dropped third strike on the catcher. Bases are loaded with 2 outs and the Cubs still have a 7-1 lead.

Crede hits a routine grounder to 3rd and Ramirez boots it and the Sox score 1 run and still have the bases loaded.

Alexie hits a line drive one hopper to the left fielder and one more run scores making it 7-3.

BA hits a grounder between short and third and Alexie beats the force throw to second and another run scores.

Thome pinch hits for the pitchers spot and gets hit by a pitch forcing in another run .

Now the score is 7-5 and the Sox have batted around with OC stepping up to the plate to face Marmol again.

Pinella is steaming mad and starts walking to the mound to make a pitching change. Cowboy Joe West warns Lou not to go to the mound. Lou ignores West and goes toward the mound for the ball and signals to the bullpen for the right hander.

What is the correct call for the umpire to make?
I don't get it. Lou can't make the pitching change?

fusillirob1983
06-24-2008, 10:11 PM
I was going to guess since it's his second visit to the pitcher that inning, then he'd after to make the pitching change, but it looks like he intended to anyway. I may have made up a rule but I thought you could only visit a pitcher once in an inning prior to having to change pitchers.

Billy Heywood's answer would be AxB / A+B.

pierzynski07
06-24-2008, 10:17 PM
I was going to guess since it's his second visit to the pitcher that inning, then he'd after to make the pitching change, but it looks like he intended to anyway. I may have made up a rule but I thought you could only visit a pitcher once in an inning prior to having to change pitchers.

Billy Heywood's answer would be AxB / A+B.
Well at the end, the umpire is warning Lou. Why?

hose
06-25-2008, 07:47 AM
Because he was warned and it was Pinella's second visit of the inning with the same pitcher facing the same batter Joe West ejects Pinella and notifies the team that a new pitcher will be coming in.

Marmol must stay in and pitch to OC and either retire him or allow OC to get on base . Once Marmol is done pitching to OC he will be removed from the game and the new pitcher will have 8 warm up tosses or more if the umpire decides to allow it.

34rancher
06-25-2008, 08:38 AM
This one won a state championship a few years back:

Based loaded, tie score. Batter gets ball 3, but acts like it is ball 4. Lays down the bat and starts jogging to first. All of the runners start jogging to advance a base. Umpire calls batter back from first for 3 balls, but run has already crossed the plate (triple steal). Game over.

RTI_SoxFan
06-25-2008, 10:15 AM
This one won a state championship a few years back:

Based loaded, tie score. Batter gets ball 3, but acts like it is ball 4. Lays down the bat and starts jogging to first. All of the runners start jogging to advance a base. Umpire calls batter back from first for 3 balls, but run has already crossed the plate (triple steal). Game over.

That is BUSH LEAGUE!!! I wouldn't feel to proud for winning a state championship that way. Man, that is so bush league!

pierzynski07
06-25-2008, 10:28 AM
Because he was warned and it was Pinella's second visit of the inning with the same pitcher facing the same batter Joe West ejects Pinella and notifies the team that a new pitcher will be coming in.

Marmol must stay in and pitch to OC and either retire him or allow OC to get on base . Once Marmol is done pitching to OC he will be removed from the game and the new pitcher will have 8 warm up tosses or more if the umpire decides to allow it.
3.05(a):
The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire-in-chief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates him from pitching.

Once that criteria is met, a pitching change can come at any time.

Hokiesox
06-25-2008, 11:18 AM
Because he was warned and it was Pinella's second visit of the inning with the same pitcher facing the same batter Joe West ejects Pinella and notifies the team that a new pitcher will be coming in.

Marmol must stay in and pitch to OC and either retire him or allow OC to get on base . Once Marmol is done pitching to OC he will be removed from the game and the new pitcher will have 8 warm up tosses or more if the umpire decides to allow it.

No. I don't get why West would tell him he couldn't go visit. The second visit of the inning means the pitcher must be replaced. There's no rule against visiting the pitcher twice in an inning, just that he must be replaced. The fact that Lou visited him when OC was up previously in the inning doesn't enter into it because OC finished that previous AB. IF Lou had visited him during OC's first AB, then Lou wants to visit again during the same AB, West would inform him that 1) the new pitcher must pitch one AB, and that, upon completion of that AB, he must then pull his picther.

I'm not sure why West would tell him he can't visit, or why he would be ejected.

Hokiesox
06-25-2008, 11:21 AM
This one won a state championship a few years back:

Based loaded, tie score. Batter gets ball 3, but acts like it is ball 4. Lays down the bat and starts jogging to first. All of the runners start jogging to advance a base. Umpire calls batter back from first for 3 balls, but run has already crossed the plate (triple steal). Game over.

Fielding team should have known the count. I bet the umpire did, but he's not constrained to shout out the count at that time. He should probably tell the batter not to go anywhere and to pick up his bat, which you think would tip off the other players.

Edit: I keep changing my mind about this one.

Iwritecode
06-25-2008, 11:25 AM
I hope you are referring to some sort of little league and nothing more because that should never, ever happen in any league other than little league.

Well, we were around 14 or 15 at the time I'm guessing.

It's not my fault the catcher, pitcher and 3rd baseman weren't paying attention.

RTI_SoxFan
06-25-2008, 11:33 AM
Well, we were around 14 or 15 at the time I'm guessing.

It's not my fault the catcher, pitcher and 3rd baseman weren't paying attention.

Agreed, if you can pull it off, more power to ya. You must have beaten that team 30-0. What morons!

KenBerryGrab
06-25-2008, 12:08 PM
Because he was warned and it was Pinella's second visit of the inning with the same pitcher facing the same batter Joe West ejects Pinella and notifies the team that a new pitcher will be coming in.

Marmol must stay in and pitch to OC and either retire him or allow OC to get on base . Once Marmol is done pitching to OC he will be removed from the game and the new pitcher will have 8 warm up tosses or more if the umpire decides to allow it.


No, this is wrong. The rule is for a single at-bat, not for another at-bat by the same hitter in the same inning. Lou has to make the change, but he's allowed the visit.

hose
06-25-2008, 04:34 PM
No, this is wrong. The rule is for a single at-bat, not for another at-bat by the same hitter in the same inning. Lou has to make the change, but he's allowed the visit.

8.06 on pages 82 and 83 clearly explains making a second mound visit in the inning to the same pitcher an batter combo.


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/08_the_pitcher.pdf

KenBerryGrab
06-25-2008, 04:37 PM
8.06 on pages 82 and 83 clearly explains making a second mound visit in the inning to the same pitcher an batter combo.


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/08_the_pitcher.pdf

I think you're reading it wrong. The same batter refers to that at-bat, not a later at-bat in the same inning.

JohnTucker0814
06-25-2008, 04:46 PM
I think you're reading it wrong. The same batter refers to that at-bat, not a later at-bat in the same inning.

I agree: Here is the wording from the rules, "After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. The manager should be notified that his pitcher will be removed from the game after he pitches to one hitter, so he can have a substitute pitcher warmed up."

This bolded area "to one hitter" is the key... the scenario you have means that Marmol has pitched to 8 batters since the 1st visit... he is allowed to visit and remove Marmol and West would be an idiot if he warned him, if West did not allow Lou to remove Marmol, the game would be played under protest and then resumed from this point at a later date because that protest would be upheld!

Way to keep everyone on their toes though!

hose
06-25-2008, 04:59 PM
I think you're reading it wrong. The same batter refers to that at-bat, not a later at-bat in the same inning.


I'm not a real ump so I can see how that ---at bat---is probably right.

.....OC hits a grand slam and the Sox win:bandance:

Thigpen "57"
06-25-2008, 05:01 PM
I agree: Here is the wording from the rules, "After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. The manager should be notified that his pitcher will be removed from the game after he pitches to one hitter, so he can have a substitute pitcher warmed up."

This bolded area "to one hitter" is the key... the scenario you have means that Marmol has pitched to 8 batters since the 1st visit... he is allowed to visit and remove Marmol and West would be an idiot if he warned him, if West did not allow Lou to remove Marmol, the game would be played under protest and then resumed from this point at a later date because that protest would be upheld!

Way to keep everyone on their toes though!

What he said. :smile: