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Soxboyrob
05-07-2002, 09:05 AM
I'm still waiting for Frank to actually have a good at-bat in a late inning, clutch situation. I want to think it's just taking time to find his old form, but it seems to be more of a mental, clutch situational issue. It seems to me that every time he comes up against a decent pitcher, late innings, tie game or losing, the guys whiffs and looks bad doing it. I'm not asking him to hit a homer every time or even get a hit every time. How about just hitting the ball hard sometimes? An occasional hit? A rare home run? What gives? He had this same problem for most of his 2000 season other than for a game winning double in a tie game, bottom of the ninth situation vs. Oakland. We really need for this guy to start coming through w/ some quality at bats in those tough spots. That's what Hall of Famers are supposed to do. I'm just so frustrated. Let's go Frank!

duke of dorwood
05-07-2002, 09:12 AM
Even though he had the right field HR Sunday, he has looked bad the last 2 games. Yet he has 22 RBI. But I bet hardly any in late innings.

Soxboyrob
05-07-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Even though he had the right field HR Sunday, he has looked bad the last 2 games. Yet he has 22 RBI. But I bet hardly any in late innings.

ESPN keeps stats for production in situations that would be labeled as "close and late," but they don't elaborate as to what that actually means.

For 2002, they show Frank as hitting .222 (2 for 9) w/ no walks and 4 K's. 9 at-bats is hardly a fair measuring stick, however.

In Frank's excellent 2000 season, he hit .268 in "close and late" situations. 19 for 71 with: 1 HR, 5 dbls, 14k's and 15 walks. Not particularly good. It would be interesting to see his career numbers in these situations. I think he was much better in the clutch during the first 7 years of his career.

MattSharp
05-07-2002, 10:13 AM
Frank is struggling in all of his ABs, not just clutch situations. I have been saying for a month not to worry cause he will come around, but I am starting to get nervous. Hes got to get his swing back. Once he does this team will have trouble scoring 6+ runs a game....

bc2k
05-08-2002, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I'm still waiting for Frank to actually have a good at-bat in a late inning, clutch situation. That's what Hall of Famers are supposed to do.

Well said, Soxboyrob. I thought I was the only one who noticed. Is this what we are to expect at 10 million a year through 2006? Invoke no skills clause this offseason. Maggs as DH, Borchard in right. Lee as DH, Maggs in left, Borchard in right. Anything. Please, anything.

Bmr31
05-08-2002, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Well said, Soxboyrob. I thought I was the only one who noticed. Is this what we are to expect at 10 million a year through 2006? Invoke no skills clause this offseason. Maggs as DH, Borchard in right. Lee as DH, Maggs in left, Borchard in right. Anything. Please, anything.

NO, you are not the only ones to notice. Frank pisses me off many times in clutch situations, especially the playoffs. Im not sure what to make of it but i hope he corrects it. I would have traded him two years ago, we could have gotten A LOT.

FarWestChicago
05-08-2002, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Well said, Soxboyrob. I thought I was the only one who noticed. Is this what we are to expect at 10 million a year through 2006? Invoke no skills clause this offseason. Maggs as DH, Borchard in right. Lee as DH, Maggs in left, Borchard in right. Anything. Please, anything. :whoflungpoo

RedPinStripes
05-08-2002, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Well said, Soxboyrob. I thought I was the only one who noticed. Is this what we are to expect at 10 million a year through 2006? Invoke no skills clause this offseason. Maggs as DH, Borchard in right. Lee as DH, Maggs in left, Borchard in right. Anything. Please, anything.

He stole another base tonight. you happy now?

bc2k
05-08-2002, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


He stole another base tonight. you happy now?

Really! Wow. I missed the whole game tonight while I was at work. I guess I'm eating my words, oh wait, in my previous description of the ideal DH, I also mentioned hitting a minimum of his body weight. And Frank is failing at hitting .400! :o:

Kilroy
05-08-2002, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31


NO, you are not the only ones to notice. Frank pisses me off many times in clutch situations, especially the playoffs. Im not sure what to make of it but i hope he corrects it. I would have traded him two years ago, we could have gotten A LOT.

Was that single in the 6th last night clutch enuf for you? Or does it have to be in the 8th or 9th to be clutch?

As far as the playoffs, you must only be familiar with the 2000 playoffs. Because in the 93 playoffs, in 6 games, Frank hit .353 w/ 10 BB, 3 rbi, and a dinger. Not much to bitch about there.

BuehrleACE56
05-08-2002, 08:06 AM
I think that Frank has done very well for most of the game. But then it gets to be the 8th or 9th and I am thinking all right here comes Frank, lets do it. Then he strikes out and doesn't even look good. He has put up good number and done well but nothing above and beyond another good player. Hall of Famers need to be clutch and be above the rest. He's not doing anything yet this season that someone paid much less than him could do at DH. But maybe he'll find his form. It keeps getting further and further into the season and we're all still saying that. Where do we drawthe line and say that it's just not the same Frank?

KruseControl04
05-08-2002, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


He stole another base tonight. you happy now?

Yeah!! Frank Thomas, Speed Demon!

KruseControl04
05-08-2002, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by BuehrleACE56
I think that Frank has done very well for most of the game. But then it gets to be the 8th or 9th and I am thinking all right here comes Frank, lets do it. Then he strikes out and doesn't even look good. He has put up good number and done well but nothing above and beyond another good player. Hall of Famers need to be clutch and be above the rest. He's not doing anything yet this season that someone paid much less than him could do at DH. But maybe he'll find his form. It keeps getting further and further into the season and we're all still saying that. Where do we drawthe line and say that it's just not the same Frank?

Frank Thomas is a Hall of Famer. He was one of the best hitters around back in the day. But these days he has slowed down. I have a feeling by the end of the season he'll be hitting like the Frank Thomas we all love and remember.

voodoochile
05-08-2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Really! Wow. I missed the whole game tonight while I was at work. I guess I'm eating my words, oh wait, in my previous description of the ideal DH, I also mentioned hitting a minimum of his body weight. And Frank is failing at hitting .400! :o:

Your blatent contempt for the best Sox hitter ever and someone who is still producing - oh that's right, you forgot he drove in some crucial runs last night to break open the big inning that ended up breaking open the game and allowing the Sox to cruise home... Of course it didn't "look pretty" and Frank's 400 pound butt barely made it to first base, so it doesn't count...

Man, when it comes to Frank, your posts are worthless, gutless, meaningless drivel. Maybe one day you'll learn a little bit about what makes a baseball player and then your thoughts will mean something. (Note the distinct LACK of teal in this last couple of sentences...)

:troll

ode to veeck
05-08-2002, 08:26 AM
I agree FarWestChicago, Franks play does look like that picture. Well said, err, well shown.

I think West was commenting not on Frank but on the several posts ranking on the big guy, asking to trade him , replace him etc, i.e. lotta poo falling ("the sky is falling!") in this thread

Kilroy
05-08-2002, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
...you forgot he drove in some crucial runs last night to break open the big inning that ended up breaking open the game and allowing the Sox to cruise home...

I think that even those of us who are praising Frank aren't giving him enuf credit for that at-bat in the 6th. He hit a 1-2 pitch off his shoe-tops by just throwing the bat at the pitch with a total bail out swing. You know that Van Poppel is standing there pissed off because he had him 1-2 and threw him a ****-ball and got beat. The next pitch is Maggs' homer. Direct result of Thomas' single.

FarWestChicago
05-08-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


I agree FarWestChicago, Franks play does look like that picture. Well said, err, well shown. Well, you shouldn't have done that. But, I didn't expect you to be that sharp.

raul12
05-08-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Well said, Soxboyrob. I thought I was the only one who noticed. Is this what we are to expect at 10 million a year through 2006? Invoke no skills clause this offseason. Maggs as DH, Borchard in right. Lee as DH, Maggs in left, Borchard in right. Anything. Please, anything.

LMAO! Lee as DH?!

cheeses_h_rice
05-08-2002, 11:39 AM
bc2k = :crossdresser ?

voodoochile
05-08-2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well, you shouldn't have done that. But, I didn't expect you to be that sharp.

Later, B2ck... wish I could say it was fun, but in the end it was just more

:whoflungpoo

Bmr31
05-08-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


I think that even those of us who are praising Frank aren't giving him enuf credit for that at-bat in the 6th. He hit a 1-2 pitch off his shoe-tops by just throwing the bat at the pitch with a total bail out swing. You know that Van Poppel is standing there pissed off because he had him 1-2 and threw him a ****-ball and got beat. The next pitch is Maggs' homer. Direct result of Thomas' single.


Okay, im not going to argue. Frank IS a great HITTER afterall. I have one question, that i need answered. Im not sure of the answer myself. Why is it so much easier to be a fan of maggs over frank? Am i the only one who feels this way?

FarWestChicago
05-08-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



Okay, im not going to argue. Frank IS a great HITTER afterall. I have one question, that i need answered. Im not sure of the answer myself. Why is it so much easier to be a fan of maggs over frank? Am i the only one who feels this way? I like both. I've never had a problem with being a fan of Frank.

voodoochile
05-08-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



Okay, im not going to argue. Frank IS a great HITTER afterall. I have one question, that i need answered. Im not sure of the answer myself. Why is it so much easier to be a fan of maggs over frank? Am i the only one who feels this way?

Frank has had his fair share of off the field problems. Fans hold that against him. Magglio doesn't say much, so he cannot get into nearly as much trouble as Frank has...

This is all of course, IMHO...

Bmr31
05-08-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I like both. I've never had a problem with being a fan of Frank.


I like all white sox players. It just seems its easier to like maggs.

FarWestChicago
05-08-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



I like all white sox players. It just seems its easier to like maggs. I've always liked Frank. I've never paid much attention to the media bashing of him nor the attacks by fans. What voodoo says about Maqgs makes a lot of sense. He's never said much except "Drink Peksi". :smile:

RedPinStripes
05-08-2002, 01:23 PM
IMO, the first person i think of in the Sox' lineup is Maggs. Used to be Frank, not anymore for me.

cheeses_h_rice
05-08-2002, 01:26 PM
I think that Maggs never looks as bad as Frank does, even when he's in a funk. Maggs takes his cuts, pretty much same as always. Frank, when he's off, is really hard to look at. His swing is just wrong-looking.

And, perhaps most of all, he shows his disgust in his facial expressions.

Bmr31
05-08-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I think that Maggs never looks as Frank does, even when he's in a funk. Maggs takes his cuts, pretty much same as always. Frank, when he's off, is really hard to look at. His swing is just wrong-looking.

And, perhaps most of all, he shows his disgust in his facial expressions.

EXCELLENT points. Maybe those things you mentioned are my main problems with frank. I mean as a fan, im mad enough when he pops out with the bases loadedor even bases empty and then i have to see him throwing his bat around. I guess i just get the feeling he is upset for personal reasons instead of team reasons.

FarWestChicago
05-08-2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


EXCELLENT points. Maybe those things you mentioned are my main problems with frank. I mean as a fan, im mad enough when he pops out with the bases loadedor even bases empty and then i have to see him throwing his bat around. This statement coming from the guy who has broken how many remotes by tossing them? :D:

Kilroy
05-08-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


EXCELLENT points. Maybe those things you mentioned are my main problems with frank. I mean as a fan, im mad enough when he pops out with the bases loadedor even bases empty and then i have to see him throwing his bat around. I guess i just get the feeling he is upset for personal reasons instead of team reasons.


Don't you think that's kinda ridiculous? I mean, if he didn't show his irritation, people would say that he doesn't care. That's the way things are for Frank. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. And how could you possibly know why Frank is upset? Could it be because you've bought into what's been foisted upon us here in Chicago? That Frank is a me-first kind of player?

voodoochile
05-08-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


EXCELLENT points. Maybe those things you mentioned are my main problems with frank. I mean as a fan, im mad enough when he pops out with the bases loadedor even bases empty and then i have to see him throwing his bat around. I guess i just get the feeling he is upset for personal reasons instead of team reasons.

I think the feelings that Frank is a selfish player - and hence disappointed by dropping stats instead of failing the team - is media generated. People remember the "hold out" and the way he quit the team in September 1999 because of the pain in the foot - followed by the doctors note and not wanting to run the shuttle race in ST 2000 and the public disputes about playing first base or DH'ing, finally add in the left over doubt from Boomers publicly questioning Franks toughness last spring and the perception becomes that Frank only cares about himself.

Though he has never given anything less than 100% while playing, IMO, I think Frank does get upset when he makes an out for both personal and team oriented reasons. He wants to do well because of all the public questions about him AND he knows if his stats fall, JR might invoke the diminished skills clause. He also really wants a championship before he retires and to lead the team to glory. When he fails in big situations, he lets everyone including himself down and he wears it on his sleeve...

Soxboyrob
05-08-2002, 02:01 PM
I think the tough thing to take for Sox fans is the fact that Frank's excellence in the early-mid '90's set the bar incredibly high as far as our expectations go. Frank, since the end of '97, is not the Frank from before that time. In the five seasons since '97, his 2000 season is the only year that can hold a candle to what he did in his first 7 full seasons. Obviously, he didn't really play in 2001 and had some injury issues in '99, not to mention that we're nowhere near far enough into this year to make a fair judgement. My biggest observation is this: Frank has been made to look silly more times this season than he often was made to look in an entire season in his first 8 seasons. He's striking out a lot more and swinging at bad pitches and is on pace to easily set a personal high for K's in a season. He's not stinging the ball to the right side of the park the way he used to. He's not stinging the ball anywhere compared to how he used to.

On the flipside, he never really used to pull the ball for much power in those olden days and now he does. His overall production is fine right now from a power and OBP standpoint. I don't know that he's worthy of hitting #3 in our lineup when we could instead have Maggs doing it, but he isn't exactly hurting us either. My gut feeling is that we are holding the guy to a higher standard because we see Sosa killing the ball on a regular basis and would like to see Frank still be held in that same esteem. If Sosa were playing in another town and out of our daily field of vision, I think we might cut Frank a little more slack. Meanwhile, Sosa is tearing it up at like a 1.270 OPS clip while Frank is sort of sputtering (by his standards) at a .900 OPS clip. Nothing wrong w/ .900....it's just not the Frank we loved back when.

I'll settle for the guy. He's still a lock HOF'er. He's our best player ever. He was probably the best hitter of the '90's. And he might still pull out of this minifunk and get really hot for a while. If he does, watch out.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Don't you think that's kinda ridiculous? I mean, if he didn't show his irritation, people would say that he doesn't care. That's the way things are for Frank. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
I remember the Chicago media ripping Greg Luzinski for looking like he didn't care after a strike out; he'd just do the little bat flip, catch the bat by the barrel, and walk to the dugout.

cheeses_h_rice
05-08-2002, 02:26 PM
I haven't seen more than about 35-40% of the Sox games on TV this year, but I really can only recall about 3-4 really "oomph" hits from Frank this year. For instance, in last night's game, Hawk was all over what a "beautiful" job of hitting Frank did in poking his 2-run ducksnort into center field, while to me it looked like Frank barely managed to avoid golfing at yet another strike and that he got lucky (or fortunate) because of his sheer strength. That's not the kind of hitting Frank is known for, nor is it the kind of hitting a huge, powerful guy like him should be aspiring to.

I mean, wouldn't you love to see Frank just tearing into most pitches with all of his 285 lbs., and using both of his huge arms to smack balls into the gaps and blast frozen ropes 5 rows into the stands? He really hasn't done much of that at all this year, and perhaps it is the comparisons to his former seasons or to Sosa (who, let's face it, gets in some amazing rips), but he just still seems "off."

Kilroy
05-08-2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I mean, wouldn't you love to see Frank just tearing into most pitches with all of his 285 lbs., and using both of his huge arms to smack balls into the gaps and blast frozen ropes 5 rows into the stands? He really hasn't done much of that at all this year, and perhaps it is the comparisons to his former seasons or to Sosa (who, let's face it, gets in some amazing rips), but he just still seems "off."

That is so stereotypically "Sox-fan" of you. What the hell difference does it make? Runs crossed the plate, right?

And actually, you're wrong about Frank not being known for that kind of thing. Frank has been known for his whole career for getting the bat on the ball and getting it in play for a hit when most hitters would have not even offered or missed the ball completely. That's why Hawk is calling that "vintage Frank".

cheeses_h_rice
05-08-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


That is so stereotypically "Sox-fan" of you. What the hell difference does it make? Runs crossed the plate, right?

And actually, you're wrong about Frank not being known for that kind of thing. Frank has been known for his whole career for getting the bat on the ball and getting it in play for a hit when most hitters would have not even offered or missed the ball completely. That's why Hawk is calling that "vintage Frank".

Runs crossed the plate, which is great. But the difference is that Frank is not looking comfortable or good consistently this year, and I don't see how anyone can deny that. If Frank keeps up with his current eye/mechanics, he will not have a great year; sure, he may hit .280, but is that what you want out of your #3 hitter? I want to see him be steadier at the plate, with a consistent eye and a consistent stance and a consistent swing. I want him to stop pulling off the ball and roping the bat around with just one arm. I want him to quit flinching as the ball crosses the inside of the plate two feet from where he's standing. I want him to crush the living snot out of pitches as we're accustomed to seeing him doing.

As for comparing him to "vintage Frank," I would be willing to bet that Frank didn't put up his MVP numbers in the first half of the '90s looking as awkward at the plate as he has this year. But without video evidence to look at, I can't prove it.

Nellie_Fox
05-08-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice

I want him to stop pulling off the ball and roping the bat around with just one arm. I want him to quit flinching as the ball crosses the inside of the plate two feet from where he's standing.
Those two are things he's always done, even when he was at his best. I distinctly remember "experts" saying Charlie Lau was ruining Frank's potential with the one-handed swing.

As far as jumping back from moderately inside pitches, I actually think he's been doing less of that this year than in years past.

Kilroy
05-08-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
...But the difference is that Frank is not looking comfortable or good consistently this year, and I don't see how anyone can deny that.

I can live with you being concerned about his consistency so far this year. He hasn't been at all. But don't tell me you're not happy because he hit a bloop and not a rope off the wall. That's nit-picking.

And sure, I wanna see him hitting ropes to all fields. But I don't care if or how he jumps out of the way of a pitch inside. No one said he had to be pretty getting it done.