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PhillipsBubba
06-21-2008, 07:13 PM
He doesn't hit and run, he doesn't start runners to keep guys out of the double play, he's shown the last two days that handling a pitching staff isn't a strength...

...on the other hand, the GM has given Ozzie a one dimensional roster...

He's a good talker but that alone may not be enough this year:scratch:

JB98
06-21-2008, 07:16 PM
He doesn't hit and run, he doesn't start runners to keep guys out of the double play, he's shown the last two days that handling a pitching staff isn't a strength...

...on the other hand, the GM has given Ozzie a one dimensional roster...

He's a good talker but that alone may not be enough this year:scratch:

Ozzie tried a hit-and-run with AJ at the plate just yesterday. Pierzynski popped up. He tried it several times with Cabrera earlier in the year. OC popped up every single time. He tried it with Alexei in the first inning Wednesday night vs. Pittsburgh. Ramirez fouled the pitch off.

Ozzie tries hit-and-runs. With this personnel, they always fail.

southside rocks
06-21-2008, 07:19 PM
He doesn't hit and run, he doesn't start runners to keep guys out of the double play, he's shown the last two days that handling a pitching staff isn't a strength...

...on the other hand, the GM has given Ozzie a one dimensional roster...

He's a good talker but that alone may not be enough this year:scratch:

With all due respect, I hope you're not the guy who called Rongey on the post-game and said that Ozzie doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff. I laughed so hard at that I almost drove off 55th St. and into Washington Park.

I expect that Ozzie is limited in his options by what his squad can execute, to a great degree.

White_Sox_12
06-21-2008, 07:22 PM
I think some White Sox fans need to take a chill pill.

We have dropped two games to the Cubs...and you would think our season is over, Ozzie sucks as a manager, and Williams should be fired.

I mean...get real. First, yes...it sucks to lose to the Cubs. But we still got four games left against them...three being at our place. Last time I checked, the Cubs are really good at home and really bad on the road. So relax....

Second...we are still in first place in the A.L. Central...and have gone 7-3 against the Central in June...and 21-11 over-all against the Central. Did any of you see us sitting where we are right now back in January?

And lastly, both Ozzie and K. Williams helped lead the White Sox to a world series in 2005. And right now...they got this team in first place in the A.L. Central.

Two losses do not make or break a season. Especially when we still have four games left to play against the Cubs. Once again...CHILL OUT!

JB98
06-21-2008, 07:23 PM
With all due respect, I hope you're not the guy who called Rongey on the post-game and said that Ozzie doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff. I laughed so hard at that I almost drove off 55th St. and into Washington Park.

I expect that Ozzie is limited in his options by what his squad can execute, to a great degree.

With regard to the pitching staff, you're always a genius when everybody is getting outs. And you're always an idiot when everybody fails.

Case in point, Ozzie was a genius in the 2005 playoffs. Every button he pushed worked. Ozzie was an idiot in 2007, because Bukvich, MacDougal, Myers, et al., will make you look like an idiot.

southside rocks
06-21-2008, 07:29 PM
With regard to the pitching staff, you're always a genius when everybody is getting outs. And you're always an idiot when everybody fails.

Case in point, Ozzie was a genius in the 2005 playoffs. Every button he pushed worked. Ozzie was an idiot in 2007, because Bukvich, MacDougal, Myers, et al., will make you look like an idiot.

I know, that's why I laughed at the caller's tirade (although I sympathized with his frustration) -- this is the same Ozzie who was hailed as a wizard for his handling of the staff in '05. I guess I'll just hope that the genius Ozzie shows up at the ballpark tomorrow, not the idiot Ozzie. :tongue:

Although I didn't think it was fair to blame Ozzie for the atrocities committed by the motley crew of '07. So many of those guys were just BAD.

Lip Man 1
06-21-2008, 07:38 PM
Phillips:

Ozzie was directly quoted a few times last season as saying (paraphrasing) he'd love to return to Ozzieball but these guys can't do it.

Remember twice he had MANDATORY bunting practice for a week for basically everyone on the club...didn't do a damn bit of good.

In that regard it's not his fault the guys on this team can't execute the simplest fundamentals that high school and college kids can do in their sleep.

I do question his handing of a pitching staff and have in the past. Ozzie tries to be to much like Tony LaRussa with this "matchup" garbage. Lefty vs. lefty, righty vs. righty. Come on...if you're a pitcher you're expected to gets guys out, period.

Last year for example Thornton a lefty, was getting reamed by lefty hitters yet he was getting right handers out. Ozzie kept putting him in against lefty's anyway. There have been plenty of times when Ozzie burned through three, four pitchers in two innings because of this then got caught short later in the game.

I also think he relies to much on "pitch counts." Again I quote Jerry Koosman from his WSI interview where he said (paraphrasing) 'There were games I threw 130 pitches and felt great, there were games I threw 80 pitches and was exhausted. It's up to the manager to see and understand when a pitcher is laboring, not just to rely on x number of pitches.'

Ozzie sometimes outsmarts himself.

Lip

hawkjt
06-21-2008, 07:54 PM
I thought that Ozzie got caught up in Danks pitch count(85) yesterday. He looked very strong on the mound in the 6th. He was throwing harder than in the first...and he was in a great rythmn. Yes, you have it set up with dotel,liney and jenks but gotta go with the hot hand sometimes. But you can argue it either way. Ozzie is good with pitchers,I think, generally.

Cubs just clobbered Jose today...they beat him.

White_Sox_12
06-21-2008, 07:56 PM
Cubs just clobbered Jose today...they beat him.

They beat "him". LOL...love it.:D:

TomBradley72
06-21-2008, 09:10 PM
I have no problem with Ozzie as a strategist. I think he's in the 2nd tier of major league managers...does get outmanaged by the elite managers on occasion.

kevingrt
06-21-2008, 09:17 PM
He doesn't hit and run, he doesn't start runners to keep guys out of the double play, he's shown the last two days that handling a pitching staff isn't a strength...

...on the other hand, the GM has given Ozzie a one dimensional roster...

He's a good talker but that alone may not be enough this year:scratch:

Funny post. I think you may need teal. Go to the park and watch the games and you'll see that the hit and run is tried often. Almost too often considering the considerable lack of speed on this team.

And did he lose the ability to "handle a pitching staff" after the 2005 season?

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 09:19 PM
There is precious little he can do with this roster. He has to hope the pitching is good and a few home runs are hit. Other than that - particularly in the American League - I don't know what else can be expected of him.

Tragg
06-21-2008, 09:32 PM
I have no problem with Ozzie as a strategist. I think he's in the 2nd tier of major league managers...does get outmanaged by the elite managers on occasion.
That's about where I'd put him.
My critique is is inability or disinterest in developing young offensive talent. Maybe he just needs a first rate offensive coach (of the Coop level) to work with these young hitters.

We had a team of ozzieball hitters last year. That's not the answer. A few young players who can run the bases will help a lot as Thome/Konerko get phased out. Richar, Quentin, Anderson, Ramirez can run.

JB98
06-21-2008, 09:33 PM
Funny post. I think you may need teal. Go to the park and watch the games and you'll see that the hit and run is tried often. Almost too often considering the considerable lack of speed on this team.

I also think Ozzie tries to do too much at times. Let's take last Sunday's game against Colorado as an example. The Sox are down 4-3 in the seventh, Dye is at first with two outs and Swisher is hitting.

Dye tries a straight steal and gets thrown out from here to the moon.

Why bother trying to put on a play in that situation? You have no speed on the bases. You have a hitter at the plate who has holes in his swing like swiss cheese.

Ozzie doesn't like this station-to-station personality of the team at all, and he tries to get them out of it. But it just doesn't work with this personnel. Ozzie laments that in the papers at times, and I understand his frustration. But I think his frustration actually causes him to force the issue unwisely on occasion.

Generally, I've been pleased with how Ozzie has handled pitchers this year. His philosophy is to let the starters go. It works more often than not. Frankly, I was sorta surprised he pulled Danks yesterday. That's against his usual motus operandi. I think the National League rules factored into his decision there. The pitcher's spot came to the plate in the top of the seventh. With American League rules, Danks probably has the seventh in that same situation.

JB98
06-21-2008, 09:36 PM
That's about where I'd put him.
My critique is is inability or disinterest in developing young offensive talent. Maybe he just needs a first rate offensive coach (of the Coop level) to work with these young hitters.

Quentin and Ramirez are blossoming this year though.

I'm not sure where to come down on that issue. The young hitters we had last year didn't seem to make a lot of strides. Now, they're all back in Charlotte. But the two young newcomers this year have been two of the best players on the Sox.

Tragg
06-21-2008, 09:42 PM
Quentin and Ramirez are blossoming this year though.

I'm not sure where to come down on that issue. The young hitters we had last year didn't seem to make a lot of strides. Now, they're all back in Charlotte. But the two young newcomers this year have been two of the best players on the Sox.
Quentin is, but he was primed elsewhere (and Ozzie had him behind Owens and Ramirez in the outfield). He came out hitting his 2nd game so Ozzie left him in the lineup (thank goodness Quentin hit immediately). Oozie would have had him in AAA but for Owens' injury.
Ramirez was primed elsewhere; -but Ramirez came here with a flaw - let's see whether this staff can help him develop some plate discipline and turn him into a star. And maybe this staff deserves credit for getting him out of the early season slump.

Last year was the time to work with the young players....it seemed grudgingly at best to me. Only Owens seemed to be of much interest (swings at everything, slaps, speedy). They stuck Richar in the 8/9 hole; Sweeney wasn't much interest to them. , Eventually Fields moved up in the lineup. But all made room for Cintron and Erstad. And then there's Anderson....

JB98
06-21-2008, 09:51 PM
Quentin is, but he was primed elsewhere (and Ozzie had him behind Owens and Ramirez in the outfield). He came out hitting his 2nd game so Ozzie left him in the lineup (thank goodness Quentin hit immediately). Oozie would have had him in AAA but for Owens' injury.
Ramirez was primed elsewhere; -but Ramirez came here with a flaw - let's see whether this staff can help him develop some plate discipline and turn him into a star. And maybe this staff deserves credit for getting him out of the early season slump.

Last year was the time to work with the young players....it seemed grudgingly at best to me. Only Owens seemed to be of much interest (swings at everything, slaps, speedy). They stuck Richar in the 8/9 hole; Sweeney wasn't much interest to them. , Eventually Fields moved up in the lineup. But all made room for Cintron and Erstad. And then there's Anderson....

Of course, I personally think Quentin and Ramirez have exceptionally more offensive talent than any of these other young players mentioned. Both are certainly smarter players than some of the other youngsters we've had recently.

I don't think there's a coach in the world that can fix Jerry Owens' swing. He just can't hit. As for Sweeney and Anderson, don't forget they were hurt for a good portion of last season.

Richar and Fields are in the same boat now as Sweeney and Anderson were last year. They're going through injury-plagued years, and there is no room for them on the big-league roster anyway.

It's going to make for some tough offseason decisions for KW. He's got four infielders, including two starters, who are without a contract for 2009. Crede and Cabrera may not be worth the money they're going to command on the open market, but right now, I don't see how you can trust Richar and Fields to step in next year and be productive big-leaguers.

Tragg
06-21-2008, 10:04 PM
Of course, I personally think Quentin and Ramirez have exceptionally more offensive talent than any of these other young players mentioned. Both are certainly smarter players than some of the other youngsters we've had recently.

I don't think there's a coach in the world that can fix Jerry Owens' swing. He just can't hit. As for Sweeney and Anderson, don't forget they were hurt for a good portion of last season.

Richar and Fields are in the same boat now as Sweeney and Anderson were last year. They're going through injury-plagued years, and there is no room for them on the big-league roster anyway.

It's going to make for some tough offseason decisions for KW. He's got four infielders, including two starters, who are without a contract for 2009. Crede and Cabrera may not be worth the money they're going to command on the open market, but right now, I don't see how you can trust Richar and Fields to step in next year and be productive big-leaguers.
Richar could easily be up here now. AAA is fine but he could be here. We're talking Osuna and Uribe.

What do you see about Ramirez that causes you to use the word "exceptional". Not disagreeing - I haven't seen him hit enough to tell.

Cabrera isn't a hard decision to me - No. You can't pay, what, 10 million plus 2 draft choices for that. I don't think Richar is that much of a gamble - it's not hard to find an average 2B if he can't even deliver that level (remember what we received for Iguchi? he's at least average). I don't think Ozzie's enamored with him though - Richar is a patient hitter and that is not ozzie's preference for this infielders (nothwithstanding some obp talk on occasion). He never moved out of the bottom last year.
We could afford Crede easily with the loss of Cabrera and Uribe salaries. And who else do we have? Fields WOULD be a gamble. Much bigger than Richar.

kevingrt
06-21-2008, 10:06 PM
Richar could easily be up here now. AAA is fine but he could be here. We're talking Osuna and Uribe.

What do you see about Ramirez that causes you to use the word "exceptional". Not disagreeing - I haven't seen him hit enough to tell.

Cabrera isn't a hard decision to me - No. You can't pay, what, 10 million plus 2 draft choices for that. I don't think Richar is that much of a gamble - it's not hard to find an average 2B if he can't even deliver that level (remember what we received for Iguchi? he's at least average).
We could afford Crede easily with the loss of Cabrera and Uribe salaries. And who else do we have? Fields WOULD be a gamble. Much bigger than Richar.

Regarding the topic though it's not Ozzie's call totally on who should be brought up or sent down. I mean I know he has some say but he doesn't have all of it.

Tragg
06-21-2008, 10:26 PM
Regarding the topic though it's not Ozzie's call totally on who should be brought up or sent down. I mean I know he has some say but he doesn't have all of it.
You're right....but he plays them and Quentin was 3rd string 3rd outfielder behind Owens and Ramirez; Ramirez was behind Uribe in the 2nd base depth chart.

ondafarm
06-21-2008, 11:24 PM
Two issues I want to jump in on:

First, Ozzie pulling Danks with 85 pitches for a pinch hitter (Uribe) who got a hit. Unfortunately, Ozzie did absolutely nothing with the runner at first. No attempted steal, no bunt him into scoring position no hit and run. These things work only if they are practiced and practiced and practiced in ST. Ozzie doesn't believe in that so it never works in the season. I have no problem with pinch hitting for the SP, if you have a plan to do something with it. Ozzie has none and showed no ability to execute.

Second, Jose got pasted but Ozzie showed no interest in taking him out until the game was lost today. That's dumb. If a guy hasn't got it, then the manager needs to recognize this before the game gets out of hand and get a relief pitcher in there. Giving up eight runs in an inning before you yank the guy is inexcusable.

PhillipsBubba
06-22-2008, 12:09 AM
With all due respect, I hope you're not the guy who called Rongey on the post-game and said that Ozzie doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff. I laughed so hard at that I almost drove off 55th St. and into Washington Park.

I expect that Ozzie is limited in his options by what his squad can execute, to a great degree.

Southside,

OMG...that'll be the day I call that doofus about anything!:?:

UofCSoxFan
06-22-2008, 12:21 AM
There are times where Ozzie makes decisions I may not 100% agree with but I see his logic. For example batting Thome leadoff in the ninth today...yeah it would have been nice to have him up when we needed a home run later, but down 6 in the ninth, that really isn't a game you expect to win and Ozzie wanted to make sure he got his starting DH an at-bat if possible to stay somewhat in game shape (keep in mind we have 3 more in LA after this series and you don't want Thome to get 4 at-bats in a week).

That being said, I would have liked seeing Ozuna pinch hit instead of Thome on Fri and advance the runner. Of course they say you don't play for one there on the road so conventional wisdom there would say Ozzie was right.

As far as the Danks thing, if you look at his stats from the 75th pitch mark on, his ERA is like over 5. He really tails off quickly and Ozzie knows this. You can't just say Ozzie foolishly got caught up in pitch count when pitch count seems to be a significant issue for this young pitcher early in his career (as it is for a lot of pitchers). Dotel, Linebrink, and Jenks have been close to automatic this year, a lot more so than Danks has after the 75th pitch mark. Obviously it didn't work out, but a) who's to say Danks doesn't follow his history and give up some runs himself and b) if the Sox get a run or two with that pitch hit, it's a moot point (keep in mind Uribe did get on).

Today, yes he left Contreras in too long, but I can see why he wanted him to get out of that inning. It was the fourth and the pitchers spot was due up 2nd. Jose needed just one more out and has proven the ability to get out of situations and if he gets out of that inning you don't have to burn to relief pitchers like we ended up having to do. After all, at that point you don't know how long the game may go. Again, it didn't work out, but a lot of managers would have done the same.

Ozzie has done a good job managing the staff this year. Yet some of you seem to think he should be psychic and able to forsee a guy having an off night, even though that pitcher has done the job multiple times this year and is paid to do the specific job Ozzie brought him in for.

PhillipsBubba
06-22-2008, 12:21 AM
I have no problem with Ozzie as a strategist. I think he's in the 2nd tier of major league managers...does get outmanaged by the elite managers on occasion.

Bummer...I'd feel better if we had a 1st tier manager

...so I guess you are saying he ranks behind Ron Gardenhire and Jim Leyland?

What about Eric Wedge?

He came here talking about managing in the National League style. After all this time, we have never really seen it.

Has Ozzie ever made his case to Kenny Williams that he wants that style of player?

AJ Hellraiser
06-22-2008, 12:51 AM
I don't think he's the best but he's nowhere near being the worst...

In 2005, every decision he made seemed to be the right one.... Since then, not so much...

As a previous poster mentioned, he doesn't exactly have the roster to do a lot of things he might want... very little speed or pure contact hitters... so he can't steal or hit and run much...

I, personally, think he is terrific at handling a pitching staff as evidenced by the fact our starters (knock on wood) are rarely injured and usually make it through an entire season in good health... he has their trust and faith when he goes to the mound and lets them remain in the game in a tight situation if they say they are okay... does he make mistakes? Absolutely, but what manager doesn't?

JB98
06-22-2008, 01:03 AM
What do you see about Ramirez that causes you to use the word "exceptional". Not disagreeing - I haven't seen him hit enough to tell.

Ramirez can drive the ball in the gaps and down the lines. I was at a game against Minnesota a couple weeks back where he hit an absolute, no-doubt-about-it home run to deep right-center. We have accomplished right-handed power hitters on this club who can't hit the ball that far to right-center.

In addition, Ramirez has shown me that he can hit anybody's fastball. He's going to have to adjust to pitchers with good changeups, for sure, but the ability to turn around anybody's fastball is a good jumping off point for any young hitter trying to break into the major leagues.

I think Ramirez has exceptional talent. As a hitter, I think he's more gifted than Richar, Anderson, Fields or any of these other young guys we've talked about. With the exception of TCQ, of course. Quentin is arguably the best hitter on this team right now.

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 09:18 AM
Southside,

OMG...that'll be the day I call that doofus about anything!:?:

I didn't think so, I just laughed because your post reminded me of that call.

I like Rongey, I think he has a tough job taking those calls sometimes. The callers have often been drinking all afternoon and he hasn't, which makes it unfair from the outset.

Lip Man 1
06-22-2008, 01:09 PM
Onda:

Your point about Spring training then leads me to bring up this question.

Ozzie has been saying for the past three years (especially this past one) about what they are going to do in spring training as far as the fundamentals.

How much more time does he need to devote to this?

It appears he understands the importance yet the players still can't get it done. How is that Ozzie's fault?

Remember last year the mandatory bunting practice in pre game? And how about Ozzie telling the media that he'd like to play more Ozzieball but his players simply can't get it done?

To me it sounds like Ozzie knows and understands fundamentals, wants to play that way but isn't being given the players to do so.

I think with this bunch you have to try to pick and choose when you can even try this stuff and I agree that you have to keep trying simply to plant the seed of what could happen in your opponent.

Ozzie apparently is being very cautious because he knows these guys apparently don't really want to play his way or simply can't do things that high school and college players apparently can do in their sleep.

Lip

2906
06-22-2008, 01:19 PM
Ozzie has been saying for the past three years (especially this past one) about what they are going to do in spring training as far as the fundamentals.

How much more time does he need to devote to this?

It appears he understands the importance yet the players still can't get it done. How is that Ozzie's fault?


Mark, as you indicate, it comes down to the players executing. And yet, the players apparently aren't equipped to play the style Guillen wants to play.

There was a not-too-subtle shift over the winter when they acquired on base % guys like Swisher and Quentin. At the time, KW talked about wanting guys who could get on base and barring that, guys who would battle every at bat and wear out opposition pitchers.

Not to generalize, but I still see too many guys giving away at bats and not working the count, particularly in key situations.

Despite the angst of the last two games, the team is still in first place but it certainly can be improved. Witness KW's statements early this past week when he said with normal execution this team would be up 8-9 games.

It's not time to panic but unless I'm reading this team completely wrong, it's clear to me they need a spark. That means a personnel move ... a guy who can execute with the bat and annoy opposing pitchers.

JB98
06-22-2008, 01:21 PM
Mark, as you indicate, it comes down to the players executing. And yet, the players apparently aren't equipped to play the style Guillen wants to play.

There was a not-too-subtle shift over the winter when they acquired on base % guys like Swisher and Quentin. At the time, KW talked about wanting guys who could get on base and barring that, guys who would battle every at bat and wear out opposition pitchers.

Not to generalize, but I still see too many guys giving away at bats and not working the count, particularly in key situations.

Despite the angst of the last two games, the team is still in first place but it certainly can be improved. Witness KW's statements early this past week where he said with normal execution this team would be up 8-9 games.

It's not time to panic but unless I'm reading this team completely wrong, it's clear to me they need a spark. That means a personnel move ... a guy who can execute with the bat and annoys opposing pitchers.

I agree on all points. They need a little help offensively. The questions are, who? And do they have the trading chips to make such a move?

2906
06-22-2008, 01:28 PM
I agree on all points. They need a little help offensively. The questions are, who? And do they have the trading chips to make such a move?

JB, yes, it's easy to say they need this and they need that. It's much harder to get it done.

The main guy free and clear, and available only for $$, is Lofton. He fits the profile of a pain in the you know what hitter. I'm not saying he's the answer (or isn't the answer) but if Buster Olney and Rosenthal are to be believed, Williams has tried to plow that field. Which to me says KW sees the same things you and I see and is trying (or at least tried) to do something about it.

Lofton is working out in L.A. It'll be interesting to see if KW is on this brief road trip.

PhillipsBubba
06-22-2008, 07:03 PM
I didn't think so, I just laughed because your post reminded me of that call.

I like Rongey, I think he has a tough job taking those calls sometimes. The callers have often been drinking all afternoon and he hasn't, which makes it unfair from the outset.

I guess I do feel sorry for him sometimes...he is required to deal with unhappy fans after a loss, while not being over-critical of the team.

I shouldn't be unkind toward the guy...he's trying to do a good job and I'm certainly not the last word on whether he succeeds or not.:smile:

soxfanreggie
06-22-2008, 07:22 PM
Ozzie would not be on my list as a top baseball strategist, but I don't think a coach needs to be to be successful as long as they have people on staff that are. It's like having a veteran assistant coach on the bench when you're more of a recruiting/players' coach.

Tragg
06-22-2008, 07:26 PM
Ozzie would not be on my list as a top baseball strategist, but I don't think a coach needs to be to be successful as long as they have people on staff that are. It's like having a veteran assistant coach on the bench when you're more of a recruiting/players' coach.
Who do you see as having the role of strategist on this field staff.
Joey Cora?
Harold Baines?