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Lip Man 1
06-21-2008, 06:48 PM
Ozzie being Ozzie:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080621&content_id=2975057&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

With all due respect Ozzie, one can ask legitimately what Thome was even doing up there pinch hitting in the 9th inning. You only needed one run, then turn the game over to Jenks. A home run would be sweet but the second run was superfluous. The first run was the needed run. You can make a claim that you bring in Ozuna to bunt Anderson over to 3rd and take your chances. It's a lot easier to score from 3rd then 2nd base even if you are bad in the clutch. A wild pitch, passed ball, error doesn't score a guy from second.

Lip

MarySwiss
06-21-2008, 06:52 PM
Ozzie being Ozzie:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080621&content_id=2975057&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

With all due respect Ozzie, one can ask legitimately what Thome was even doing up there pinch hitting in the 9th inning. You only needed one run, then turn the game over to Jenks. A home run would be sweet but the second run was superfluous. The first run was the needed run. You can make a claim that you bring in Ozuna to bunt Anderson over to 3rd and take your chances. It's a lot easier to score from 3rd then 2nd base even if you are bad in the clutch. A wild pitch, passed ball, error doesn't score a guy from second.

Lip
Well, hell! Lip, "I Won't Back Down" is practically Ozzie's theme song. He called it the way he saw it. Okay, it didn't work out, but if it did, no one would have questioned it.

southside rocks
06-21-2008, 07:17 PM
Ozzie being Ozzie:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080621&content_id=2975057&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

With all due respect Ozzie, one can ask legitimately what Thome was even doing up there pinch hitting in the 9th inning. You only needed one run, then turn the game over to Jenks. A home run would be sweet but the second run was superfluous. The first run was the needed run. You can make a claim that you bring in Ozuna to bunt Anderson over to 3rd and take your chances. It's a lot easier to score from 3rd then 2nd base even if you are bad in the clutch. A wild pitch, passed ball, error doesn't score a guy from second.

Lip

I can't read the article (I think due to a problem with my browser), but Ozzie addressed this in either the pre- or post-game comments.

He said that he batted Thome NOT because he wanted a homerun, but because Jim is "maybe the greatest pull hitter in baseball today" and he knew that if JT was able to pull the ball, Anderson would score from second. He said he never for a second considered having Ozuna bunt BA over in that situation.

I heard that earlier today on the radio but I can't remember the context.

JB98
06-21-2008, 07:19 PM
I still think Ozzie made the right move using Thome in that situation.

White_Sox_12
06-21-2008, 07:35 PM
Honestly, I don't think Ozzie has made any bad moves this weekend. An argument could be made that he left Contreras in there too long today...but dang, I don't think anyone saw that coming from the Cubs...and I mean, you got to have a pitcher who is warmed up and ready. Don't wanna rush a pitcher in there.

The decisions he made yesterday were smart decisions. Things just didn't bounce our way....that is baseball sometimes.

So, yeah...Ozzie will get yelled out when we lose and called all such of names. Yet...when we are on a big win streak...he is the greatest manager ever.

LOL...go figure.

hawkjt
06-21-2008, 07:59 PM
I agree that the Thome failure is on Thome...he swung at the first pitch, it was low and outside when he wanted something to pull and he pops it up. Maybe you could argue that he was sitting for 8 innings and was not ready but that is lame. Then today, Thome gets up and does his usual pull the grounder into the hole on the right side which is what he needed to do yesterday....so no Ozzie is ok with that. Danks...could argue it either way but I thought Danks looked strong in the 6th...but I also know that with two right-handed power guys coming up and a strong 7th,8th and 9th bullpen rotation...it did make sense.

Jose today? Just too fast for Ozzie to do much...all on Jose.

gobears1987
06-21-2008, 08:07 PM
I agree that the only thing you can fault Ozzie on is pulling Danks yesterday. Ozzie can't be blamed when a Hall of Fame player does something stupid first pitch hunting.

southside rocks
06-21-2008, 08:11 PM
After the game, Ozzie was asked by a reporter if he thought about taking Jose out earlier than he eventually did -- the reporter said 'nobody was warming up in the bullpen, did you have somebody else you could go to then?' and Ozzie, without missing a beat, said 'well, Danks was ready, cause you know I pulled him too early yesterday.' Made me laugh.

ondafarm
06-21-2008, 11:25 PM
Honestly, I don't think Ozzie has made any bad moves this weekend. An argument could be made that he left Contreras in there too long today...but dang, I don't think anyone saw that coming from the Cubs...and I mean, you got to have a pitcher who is warmed up and ready. Don't wanna rush a pitcher in there.

The decisions he made yesterday were smart decisions. Things just didn't bounce our way....that is baseball sometimes.

So, yeah...Ozzie will get yelled out when we lose and called all such of names. Yet...when we are on a big win streak...he is the greatest manager ever.

LOL...go figure.

Ozzie Jr. we know you want to defend your dad, but he screwed up this weekend.

Viva Medias B's
06-21-2008, 11:45 PM
What is it that Hawk says?

:hawk
"Ozzie isn't afraid to lose a ballgame. Show me a manager that is afraid to lose a ballgame, and I'll show you a bad manager."

The Danks move made sense at the time. It just did not work out the way we wanted it to. A manager is going to lose ten games a year, and he is going to win ten games a year.

jabrch
06-22-2008, 12:08 AM
Ozzie Jr. we know you want to defend your dad, but he screwed up this weekend.


Wouldn't you be saying this no matter what?

FarWestChicago
06-22-2008, 12:18 AM
Wouldn't you be saying this no matter what?Yes, Farm is clearly psychotic.

jabrch
06-22-2008, 12:32 AM
Yes, Farm is clearly psychotic.

Onda knows the game better than I do - I have no doubt about that. That said -I am sure the game is not as simple as he makes it sound. As he frequently points out - he hit .227 or something like that. Maybe managing is more difficult than following Onda's Rules? Maybe...

Then again - maybe not.

It's Time
06-22-2008, 12:36 AM
And now Ozzie is saying that the Cubs are "better than us" and that they are a "championship team and we are not".

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-080621-chicago-cubs-white-sox,0,6521663.story

:?:

Frontman
06-22-2008, 12:38 AM
Well, hell! Lip, "I Won't Back Down" is practically Ozzie's theme song. He called it the way he saw it. Okay, it didn't work out, but if it did, no one would have questioned it.

Hell, "Won't back down" is the theme song of the Ozzie haters as well. Had Thome put that ball out onto Sheffield; Ozzie would be heralded as a hero; instead he's the scapegoat right now for a team that lost to a team that played better baseball.

Frontman
06-22-2008, 12:40 AM
And now Ozzie is saying that the Cubs are "better than us" and that they are a "championship team and we are not".

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-080621-chicago-cubs-white-sox,0,6521663.story

:?:

Do you honestly think the White Sox are playing strong baseball right now? I certainly don't. While they would make the playoffs, they would in my opinion not go far in them. When I look at the Cubs, with even two of their big stars down; they are playing winning baseball. I have to agree with Ozzie, the Cubs are playing better baseball than the Sox. Period.

JB98
06-22-2008, 12:49 AM
And now Ozzie is saying that the Cubs are "better than us" and that they are a "championship team and we are not".

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-080621-chicago-cubs-white-sox,0,6521663.story

:?:

Have you seen anything this weekend that would suggest to you that Ozzie is wrong?

The Sox have a good team, but it's not a great team. They need a little something to help get them over the hump. Hopefully, KW can pull something out for us at the trade deadline that will give the club a little push.

And I'm not just saying that because we lost two games to the damn Cubs. Looking at the first 74 games of the season, the Sox are close. They're contenders, but they need to get better to be a serious threat.

RadioheadRocks
06-22-2008, 12:50 AM
And now Ozzie is saying that the Cubs are "better than us" and that they are a "championship team and we are not".

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-080621-chicago-cubs-white-sox,0,6521663.story

:?:


And this is a revelation because why???

It's Time
06-22-2008, 12:53 AM
And this is a revelation because why???

Both teams are in 1st and to suggest: "they are a championship team" and then say: "we're not" seems a bit of a stretch.

It's Time
06-22-2008, 12:56 AM
Have you seen anything this weekend that would suggest to you that Ozzie is wrong?

. They're contenders, but they need to get better to be a serious threat.

In all honesty, what do you see (and Ozzie) that suggests that the Cubs are a championship team and the White Sox are not? Do you see any huge difference between them?:scratch:

Viva Medias B's
06-22-2008, 12:58 AM
Do you honestly think the White Sox are playing strong baseball right now? I certainly don't. While they would make the playoffs, they would in my opinion not go far in them. When I look at the Cubs, with even two of their big stars down; they are playing winning baseball. I have to agree with Ozzie, the Cubs are playing better baseball than the Sox. Period.

I hope this is not the attitude Ozzie influenes upon the team for the remaining four games against them.

JB98
06-22-2008, 01:09 AM
In all honesty, what do you see (and Ozzie) that suggests that the Cubs are a championship team and the White Sox are not? Do you see any huge difference between them?:scratch:

Yes. The Cubs hitters take advantage of every mistake. If a pitcher makes a bad pitch, they don't pop up or foul it off. They put it in play hard. If the opposition makes a defensive mistake, they take advantage. They have enough speed up and down their lineup to go first-to-third all day long.

Lost in them hitting four homers in that inning, they played first-and-third against Jose for THREE CONSECUTIVE BATTERS. Fukudome singled, Patterson singled, Lee singled. Everyone was going first to third.

Have you seen the Sox do that all year, even at their best?

southsideirish71
06-22-2008, 01:51 AM
Yes. The Cubs hitters take advantage of every mistake. If a pitcher makes a bad pitch, they don't pop up or foul it off. They put it in play hard. If the opposition makes a defensive mistake, they take advantage. They have enough speed up and down their lineup to go first-to-third all day long.

Lost in them hitting four homers in that inning, they played first-and-third against Jose for THREE CONSECUTIVE BATTERS. Fukudome singled, Patterson singled, Lee singled. Everyone was going first to third.

Have you seen the Sox do that all year, even at their best?

Gerald Perry has an advantage. His hitters realize that right field is not out. Their hitters use the entire field, and thats what makes them dangerous. Meanwhile our guys, while talented, seem to be fixated on pulling everything for a homer. You can't string 3 to 4 hits in a row if the opposition knows you pull everything, and attack you with outside pitching. The minute we start driving those outside pitches into the gap in right field. The better off our hitting will be.

FarWestChicago
06-22-2008, 07:51 AM
I hope this is not the attitude Ozzie influenes upon the team for the remaining four games against them.I looked this word up. I wasn't familiar with it.

hose
06-22-2008, 09:07 AM
I think Ozzie made the right move with Thome.

9 out of 10 times Thome pulls the ball to the right side.

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 09:15 AM
I think Ozzie made the right move with Thome.

9 out of 10 times Thome pulls the ball to the right side.

Bingo. And Leonard Koppett (who knew a lot about baseball even though he never posted at WSI) famously defined "panic" as "the abandonment of percentage moves in the face of disaster." Ozzie went with the percentage moves because that's what you do, as a manager, unless you have a compelling reason not to -- or unless you panic.

Red Barchetta
06-22-2008, 09:31 AM
Ozzie being Ozzie:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080621&content_id=2975057&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

With all due respect Ozzie, one can ask legitimately what Thome was even doing up there pinch hitting in the 9th inning. You only needed one run, then turn the game over to Jenks. A home run would be sweet but the second run was superfluous. The first run was the needed run. You can make a claim that you bring in Ozuna to bunt Anderson over to 3rd and take your chances. It's a lot easier to score from 3rd then 2nd base even if you are bad in the clutch. A wild pitch, passed ball, error doesn't score a guy from second.

Lip

I think if Anderson would have (should have) legged out the triple, all we needed was a fly ball. I think Anderson held up more because he didn't want to make a mistake and have his manager all over him. The fact that Thome could not hit a ground ball to the right side (after seeing him doing this so much in futility all season long) is the most frustrating piece. Oh well, two days ago. I need to get over it and hopefully we can stop giving up gopher balls to the Cubs hitters tonight.

soxrme
06-22-2008, 09:37 AM
I think if Anderson would have (should have) legged out the triple, all we needed was a fly ball. I think Anderson held up more because he didn't want to make a mistake and have his manager all over him. The fact that Thome could not hit a ground ball to the right side (after seeing him doing this so much in futility all season long) is the most frustrating piece. Oh well, two days ago. I need to get over it and hopefully we can stop giving up gopher balls to the Cubs hitters tonight.

I agree with this 100%, Anderson should have been on 3rd and Thome should have a better at bat. Crede had 4 bad at bats too. But Contreas blame that on Ozzie, that was horrible managing.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-22-2008, 10:11 AM
although the decision to pull danks was a poor one in hindsight, i agree with ozzie's premise that you have to go with your gut feeling. where ozzie lost me in that article, was his comment that people are attacking him for this move in a sense due to his ethnicity. guillen's made some stupid comments in the media this year - but this one, far and away, was the dumbest....and that's saying something.

#1swisher
06-22-2008, 10:35 AM
Yet...when we are on a big win streak...he is the greatest manager ever.

[/quote]

IMO I may be one of the few who doesn't think Ozzie is the greatest manager...I will sit here and grind my teeth until 2012. Yes, I believe we will go the the world series 2008, but it will be in spite of Ozzie.
GO SOX!!

TornLabrum
06-22-2008, 11:00 AM
I hope this is not the attitude Ozzie influenes upon the team for the remaining four games against them.

I hope it IS the attitude he gives them. Maybe it will enable them to once again pull their heads out of their asses and start playing good baseball (which they weren't, even in the Pittsburgh series). When I saw those Pirates games, I had a feeling I knew what the Cubs series was going to be like. The Cubs have better pitching and better hitting than the Pirates. Now, how many runs were scored due to bad Pirates pitching, and how bad was our pitching against the Pirates?

The Cubs are a pretty good team. We play good baseball on a part-time basis.

TDog
06-22-2008, 11:25 AM
I still think Ozzie made the right move using Thome in that situation.

So do I. Hit into the shift and you move the runner over or score the run if the ball goes through. Unless you have an especially weak hitter up (i.e. a pitcher) you shouldn't be bunting anyway.

Anyway, a few years ago, it was shown that statistically, you have a better chance of scoring a runner from second and no one out than you do scoring a runner from third and one out. The former situation, of course, often includes the former, and in a tie-score, ninth-inning situation, you will be playing the infield in for the play at the plate. The opposition isn't going to concede the run on a ground ball as they might early in the game, but you have a better chance of getting a hit on a ground ball or a blooper (because the outfield is playing normal depth at home).

Concede the out to move the runner over to third, and you essentially have just one chance to score the run with an out. It isn't automatic. If I plan on squeezing the run home (and with the infield in, it has to be an all-or nothing suicide squeeze), I might give up an out to get a runner to third. If the one-out hitter doesn't bring the run home, the two-out hitter has to get a hit, which he failed to do to get the runner home from second anyway.

I have no problem with Jim Thome coming up in that situation and swinging away. It's actually percentage baseball. The players didn't execute.
.

Lip Man 1
06-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Hal:

Welcome back.

Your comments are spot on (not that they are any easier to read because you are saying the truth. as is Irish.)

Lip

Cuck the Fubs
06-22-2008, 01:06 PM
It's actually percentage baseball. The players didn't execute.
.

:bandance: Bravo.............well said :bandance:

JB98
06-22-2008, 01:11 PM
Gerald Perry has an advantage. His hitters realize that right field is not out. Their hitters use the entire field, and thats what makes them dangerous. Meanwhile our guys, while talented, seem to be fixated on pulling everything for a homer. You can't string 3 to 4 hits in a row if the opposition knows you pull everything, and attack you with outside pitching. The minute we start driving those outside pitches into the gap in right field. The better off our hitting will be.

The Cubs do a better job than the Sox at taking what a pitcher gives them. I don't think the Cub hitters are as greedy as the Sox hitters. I have seen stretches of the season, namely that 7-0 homestand, where the Sox were using the entire field and taking what was given to them. But it happens only in streaks.

The Sox don't seem capable of taking that approach each every day, which is something the Cubs do in basically every game I've seen them play this year.

I think the Sox have a deeper pitching staff than the Cubs, although I think their studs match up with our studs. Guys 7-12 on the Sox staff are better than the guys 7-12 on the Cubs staff.

But their offense is quite a bit better than ours, IMO.

JB98
06-22-2008, 01:13 PM
although the decision to pull danks was a poor one in hindsight, i agree with ozzie's premise that you have to go with your gut feeling. where ozzie lost me in that article, was his comment that people are attacking him for this move in a sense due to his ethnicity. guillen's made some stupid comments in the media this year - but this one, far and away, was the dumbest....and that's saying something.

I don't think it's that stupid. People have been banned from WSI for accusing Ozzie of favoring Latin players and such.

BRDSR
06-22-2008, 02:15 PM
Good. Ozzie shouldn't back down. What kind of confidence would he inspire if he got up in front of the microphones and said "I made a stupid decision. I'm not that smart of a baseball man, and my deficiences are even more apparent in a national league ballpark."?

That doesn't mean he shouldn't learn from his stupid decisions. We can debate it until we're blue in the face, but the fact is that the Sox have some hitters that hit one way regardless of the situation and some hitters that hit according to the situation. Ozzie put in one of the former, and the result was just random (and, in that case, bad). You put in Ozuna there and he still might not get the job done, but the result wouldn't be random.

viagracat
06-22-2008, 04:38 PM
Both teams are in 1st and to suggest: "they are a championship team" and then say: "we're not" seems a bit of a stretch.

Probably fair to assume this was nothing but a motivational ploy by Ozzie. You see it all the time by coaches and managers. What are you going to say, really, after you get your ass kicked like the Sox did yesterday?

In other words, yes, the Cubs are a good team, but no, Ozzie doesn't seriously believe his team is not.

viagracat
06-22-2008, 04:42 PM
I had no problem with Ozzie batting Thome on Friday and pulling Danks when he did that day as well. I did have a problem with him leaving Contreras in as long as he did yesterday. The man clearly did not have it, and he stayed in until the Cubs essentially put the game out of reach. Managers make mistakes, and Ozzie made one yesterday, IMO. But that doesn't make him an idiot.