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Soxman219
06-20-2008, 06:37 PM
I know we should have won this game today. The first 5 minutes after the Sox loss today I was very pissed. But then I realized that it's only one game. Let Cubs fans be happy today, let the Cubune and the media celebrate their team winning today. Every Cub fan that bothers you just take it in stride. We got a WS to look back on so until they win that they have nothing to say and real Cubs fans know that. I rather lose all 6 games and win the title. There is nothing we can say that will change the Sox overnight. They are who they are, a team that has great pitching but an offense that's inconsisent. I just which Danks could get more help, he's been our most consisent pitcher. We'll still be in first place even if we get swept (God forbid). Just have to cheer our team on, that's all we are able to do. If we do beat the Cubs at Wrigley I won't be bragging to Cubs fans, I'll be happy that we gained a game in the division.

thomas35forever
06-20-2008, 06:42 PM
Thank you. Even when I entered the postgame thread, I knew things would be ugly. Thanks for putting it all into perspective.

cheezheadsoxfan
06-20-2008, 06:42 PM
I know we should have won this game today. The first 5 minutes after the Sox loss today I was very pissed. But then I realized that it's only one game. Let Cubs fans be happy today, let the Cubune and the media celebrate their team winning today. Every Cub fan that bothers you just take it in stride. We got a WS to look back on so until they win that they have nothing to say and real Cubs fans know that. I rather lose all 6 games and win the title. There is nothing we can say that will change the Sox overnight. They are who they are, a team that has great pitching but an offense that's inconsisent. I just which Danks could get more help, he's been our most consisent pitcher. We'll still be in first place even if we get swept (God forbid). Just have to cheer our team on, that's all we are able to do. If we do beat the Cubs at Wrigley I won't be bragging to Cubs fans, I'll be happy that we gained a game in the division.

Thanks, I needed that.

Medford Bobby
06-20-2008, 06:43 PM
I'm all ready planning to watch the D-Backs on TV bite the Twins tonight!

getonbckthr
06-20-2008, 06:44 PM
It makes no difference to me that todays game was against the Cubs. What matters is we blew another game we should have won. At some point these games start adding up.

rookie
06-20-2008, 06:46 PM
I know a loss is a loss, but we gift wrapped that game for them. I'd feel worse if we had been blown out. Hopefully our players are kicking themselves and the other team is lulled into a false sense of security.

Go Arizona!

rustysurf83
06-20-2008, 06:52 PM
It makes no difference to me that todays game was against the Cubs. What matters is we blew another game we should have won. At some point these games start adding up.

I know that everyone hates losing games like this, but it happens sometimes. You don't always get all the hits you need. I would rather lose a game 3-4 with a ton of runners left stranded than get three hits the entire game and lose 4-0. On a semi-related note, the vegas linesmakers seem to believe we have a much better shot tomorrow. The Cubs were -130 today, and are only -110 tomorrow which is equivalent to a pick 'em, I will take those odds any day of the week at Wrigley with the Cubs this year.

Soxman219
06-20-2008, 07:03 PM
It makes no difference to me that todays game was against the Cubs. What matters is we blew another game we should have won. At some point these games start adding up.

I know. The minute AJ struck out in the 9th, I knew we were going to lose. What they need to realize is that this in not a rivalry everyone puts it out to be. They are good at home, we are good at home. This is just another game in the 162 game schedule that they must win. We should be thankful that everyone else in our division started off bad for us to be in this position. Let's hope the Sox win tomorrow and the Dbacks, Pardes, and Dodgers win tonight.

kevingrt
06-20-2008, 07:06 PM
It makes no difference to me that todays game was against the Cubs. What matters is we blew another game we should have won. At some point these games start adding up.

Very true. We have some time to turn it around though. But some of these losses are sickening to watch.

Soxman219
06-20-2008, 07:11 PM
I know that everyone hates losing games like this, but it happens sometimes. You don't always get all the hits you need. I would rather lose a game 3-4 with a ton of runners left stranded than get three hits the entire game and lose 4-0. On a semi-related note, the vegas linesmakers seem to believe we have a much better shot tomorrow. The Cubs were -130 today, and are only -110 tomorrow which is equivalent to a pick 'em, I will take those odds any day of the week at Wrigley with the Cubs this year.

Plus this is almost similar to the 05' ALCS versus the Angels, only that this is not the playoffs. The Cubs came back from a night game last night against the Rays to play a day game. Anyway, we all thought the Angels were going to be tried because they played 3 games in three different cities, but they beat us by 1, just like today's score. Well, we knew what happened next.:cool:

tick53
06-20-2008, 07:14 PM
Thank you. Even when I entered the postgame thread, I knew things would be ugly. Thanks for putting it all into perspective.

I jumped out of there too. No sense in having a stroke. We'll be back tomorrow.

Go Sox!

sodfatherjunior
06-20-2008, 07:21 PM
I can't speak for everyone but some might agree w/me when saying that if this was a game against the Royals or some other random team we would be upset but nowhere near as upset as it is against the Cubs. The only reason why I and maybe a lot on this board got so angry was b/c of the fact that we'd have to get an ear full from Cubs fans for the rest of the night. But looking back I thought to myself, we're still in first place, didn't make good decisions today but we'll turn around and try to get em tomorrow. No need to blow it out of proportion way more than needed simply b/c it's the Cubs. Let them gloat for today and just remember, what have they done that we haven't? They've have beaten the Chicago White Sox but we have also beaten ourselves.(If there was a half teal i'd put the last sentence in that color)

soxpride724
06-20-2008, 07:21 PM
Thanks for the optimism. I had a few laughs with some Cub fan friends when it was over so it wasn't too bad, let em have it.
What realy surprised me today was one of my Cub fan friends told me that he knows the rivalry means nothing until THEY win a WS too.:gulp:

Viva Medias B's
06-20-2008, 07:24 PM
It's a good thing I was at work when this happened, instead of here in front of a computer. My comments in the postgame thread after that game would have overheated and wrecked beyond repair WSI's language filter apparatus. But our beloved violated Rule No. 1 in my book: Losing rivalry games is unacceptable. The fact that we are 30-31 against them is completely unacceptable and brings nothing but the most extreme shame.

soxpride724
06-20-2008, 07:40 PM
It's a good thing I was at work when this happened, instead of here in front of a computer. My comments in the postgame thread after that game would have overheated and wrecked beyond repair WSI's language filter apparatus. But our beloved violated Rule No. 1 in my book: Losing rivalry games is unacceptable. The fact that we are 30-31 against them is completely unacceptable and brings nothing but the most extreme shame.


Well if we didn't get swept last year we wouldn't have this problem. If this interleague play started years before 97 we would have WAY more wins I think, Cubs have just been good the last ten years. Not great but I think they are finally making a commitment to winning.

It's Time
06-20-2008, 07:47 PM
Losing rivalry games is unacceptable. The fact that we are 30-31 against them is completely unacceptable and brings nothing but the most extreme shame.

This is a silly post. Does the fact the Sox have lost 7 out of the last 8 to them make or break you?

Seriously, get a grip.

soxpride724
06-20-2008, 07:52 PM
Let them have it, I know it sucks and you know it sucks. Remember fellas, it's just a game.

Viva Medias B's
06-20-2008, 08:00 PM
This is a silly post. Does the fact the Sox have lost 7 out of the last 8 to them make or break you?

Seriously, get a grip.

Try telling a Michigan fan that about losing "The Big Game" to tOSU and see how that works for you. Not that I think anything should happen to Ozzie, but the real reason Lloyd Carr and John Cooper left their respective posts is because they lost "The Big Game" too many time.

rustysurf83
06-20-2008, 08:01 PM
Let them have it, I know it sucks and you know it sucks. Remember fellas, it's just a game.

And we will be back tomorrow with Jose against Jason ****ing Marquis. Marquis is going for four straight, I see no way that happens against us. I have a good, good feeling about tomorrow. The Sox have put up 19 ER over 17 innings in 3 games against Marquis.

whitesox901
06-20-2008, 08:02 PM
thanks sox man, i needed this! go dbacks! :D:

soxpride724
06-20-2008, 08:09 PM
And we will be back tomorrow with Jose against Jason ****ing Marquis. Marquis is going for four straight, I see no way that happens against us. I have a good, good feeling about tomorrow. The Sox have put up 19 ER over 17 innings in 3 games against Marquis.


I'm with you bud! And to Media, I know you mentioned the big game, but we have five left against these assclowns, wel get em.

It's Time
06-20-2008, 08:22 PM
Try telling a Michigan fan that about losing "The Big Game" to tOSU and see how that works for you. Not that I think anything should happen to Ozzie, but the real reason Lloyd Carr and John Cooper left their respective posts is because they lost "The Big Game" too many time.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no shame in losing to them. You act as if the Cubs have no business ever beating the Sox, yet they have done it 7 out of the last 8 games.

This is a bitter loss, sure, but please don't act as if it's "unacceptable" to lose to a team who happens to be very good. That's crazy talk.

rustysurf83
06-20-2008, 08:25 PM
What I'm trying to say is that there is no shame in losing to them. You act as if the Cubs have no business ever beating the Sox, yet they have done it 7 out of the last 8 games.

This is a bitter loss, sure, but please don't act as if it's "unacceptable" to lose to a team who happens to be very good. That's crazy talk.

This has little to no relationship with the OSU vs UM games. In college football one loss literally costs you the national championship. 17 or so many games vs. 162 makes individual games and series much less important than the big picture.....I think App State probably contributed to Carr's departure as well; if we lose to the North Carolina Tarheels then yes Ozzie should be fired.

sullythered
06-20-2008, 09:45 PM
These games are actually less than "just another game." Any game we play against the Royals, Yankees, A's, or any other A.L. opponent means more than this crap. It's all hyped up stupidity. I'll get excited to play the cubs if it's in the World Series. It's time for interleague play to go the way of the Dodo. And I'll say the same thing after we win the next two.

JB98
06-20-2008, 09:51 PM
These games are actually less than "just another game." Any game we play against the Royals, Yankees, A's, or any other A.L. opponent means more than this crap. It's all hyped up stupidity. I'll get excited to play the cubs if it's in the World Series. It's time for interleague play to go the way of the Dodo. And I'll say the same thing after we win the next two.

I agree. I hate this ****. I probably won't enjoy my weekend as much because of all the things that go along with the crosstown series. I don't need to be fielding text messages from Cubs fans every five seconds.

FarWestChicago
06-20-2008, 09:53 PM
But our beloved violated Rule No. 1 in my book: Losing rivalry games is unacceptable. The fact that we are 30-31 against them is completely unacceptable and brings nothing but the most extreme shame.Get a grip, Viva. And change your underwear. You smell like Wrigley.

soxwon
06-20-2008, 10:12 PM
I'm all ready planning to watch the D-Backs on TV bite the Twins tonight!


yea right 7-1?

kevingrt
06-20-2008, 10:24 PM
Try telling a Michigan fan that about losing "The Big Game" to tOSU and see how that works for you. Not that I think anything should happen to Ozzie, but the real reason Lloyd Carr and John Cooper left their respective posts is because they lost "The Big Game" too many time.

This isn't college football Viva. You can act like this when we meet them at the World Series, but there is no need to get your panties in a bundle so early. Listen to FWC here.

Cuck the Fubs
06-20-2008, 10:48 PM
It's a good thing I was at work when this happened, instead of here in front of a computer. My comments in the postgame thread after that game would have overheated and wrecked beyond repair WSI's language filter apparatus. But our beloved violated Rule No. 1 in my book: Losing rivalry games is unacceptable. The fact that we are 30-31 against them is completely unacceptable and brings nothing but the most extreme shame.

I have to really disagree here.........not winning a championship in 100 years to me is an extreme shame.

If you told me the White Sox would lose every single game against the Cubs this year but would win the World Series I would be a very happy man.

These games hold no meaning after 10/26/2005.

Back when neither team had any recent Championships the games offered some sort of bragging rights/ world series atmosphere.

Well, We've seen what a real World Series atmosphere & Championship is, not some bull**** overhyped meaningless series.

The reactions in this thread ( and others ) would only be justified in a Game 1 World Series thread. As long as we remain in first place who gives a ****? Even if they sweep us is there a trophy for it? A parade? A boxed DVD set? T Shirts? Pennants?

Come in off the ledge folks, the Cubs have a good team, and we played right with em. Tomorrow is another day....all I worry about it maintaining the division crown, then making a deep run in the playoffs. Up and down offense or not, this is one hell of a pitching staff that can do some serious damage in the postseason!

KingXerxes
06-20-2008, 10:56 PM
I totally agree with this thread.

I watched the game with a buddy of mine who is a die hard Cubs fans, and after Ramirez ended the game he looked over to me and said, "I wish this game had been against the Cardinals". It was kind of ironic because, when the White Sox were up 3-1, I was thinking the same thing (only the opposition was Detroit).

It's no secret I think interleague play is stupid, but you have to play them as scheduled. That being said I don't care if the White Sox beat Pittsburgh or the Cubs, as long as they beat them.

I have grown annoying weary of fans (both White Sox fans and Cubs fans) who go tit for tat against the crosstown team (whether it be about the team, the park, the food at the park, the parking, the neighborhood, the announcers et al ad naseum). The back and forth of these types of intellectual exchanges is no longer humorous to me, they are just worn out and grating.

Maybe I'm getting old.:smile:

JB98
06-20-2008, 10:59 PM
I totally agree with this thread.

I watched the game with a buddy of mine who is a die hard Cubs fans, and after Ramirez ended the game he looked over to me and said, "I wish this game had been against the Cardinals". It was kind of ironic because, when the White Sox were up 3-1, I was thinking the same thing (only the opposition was Detroit).

It's no secret I think interleague play is stupid, but you have to play them as scheduled. That being said I don't care if the White Sox beat Pittsburgh or the Cubs, as long as they beat them.

I have grown annoying weary of fans (both White Sox fans and Cubs fans) who go tit for tat against the crosstown team (whether it be about the team, the park, the food at the park, the parking, the neighborhood, the announcers et al ad naseum). The back and forth of these types of intellectual exchanges is no longer humorous to me, they are just worn out and grating.

Maybe I'm getting old.:smile:

Nah, you're not getting old. I don't consider myself old, but I'm weary of the schtick that goes along with this series too. When a White Sox player grounds out, I don't particularly care to hear some Cubs fan yell, "Ha! That's one out, mother****er!" at no one in particular.

It goes both ways, of course. I'll be glad when June 30 arrives and we can get back to playing traditional AL rivals.

voodoochile
06-20-2008, 11:00 PM
It's a good thing I was at work when this happened, instead of here in front of a computer. My comments in the postgame thread after that game would have overheated and wrecked beyond repair WSI's language filter apparatus. But our beloved violated Rule No. 1 in my book: Losing rivalry games is unacceptable. The fact that we are 30-31 against them is completely unacceptable and brings nothing but the most extreme shame.
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

sox1970
06-20-2008, 11:05 PM
Nah, you're not getting old. I don't consider myself old, but I'm weary of the schtick that goes along with this series too. When a White Sox player grounds out, I don't particularly care to hear some Cubs fan yell, "Ha! That's one out, mother****er!" at no one in particular.

It goes both ways, of course. I'll be glad when June 30 arrives and we can get back to playing traditional AL rivals.

Agreed. If I have any anxiety about this portion of the schedule, it's just that everyone in the league can win at the same time. If there are 7 or 8 teams going 12-6 or better in interleague, well, I want the White Sox to be one of them.

The Sox went 7-2 the first half of interleague. I really don't want them to go 3-6 or worse in the second half. A win today would have alleviated some pressure for the rest of the weekend. Now we have to hope Contreras is on tomorrow. Marquis better get lit up too.

SoxandtheCityTee
06-20-2008, 11:07 PM
It goes both ways, of course. I'll be glad when June 30 arrives and we can get back to playing traditional AL rivals.

As will I. I haven't gone to one of these games in about five years and I'm actually glad that I'll be busy volunteering tomorrow afternoon -- I'll record the game and watch it later. All the craziness is beyond wearying.

KingXerxes
06-20-2008, 11:07 PM
Nah, you're not getting old. I don't consider myself old, but I'm weary of the schtick that goes along with this series too. When a White Sox player grounds out, I don't particularly care to hear some Cubs fan yell, "Ha! That's one out, mother****er!" at no one in particular.

It goes both ways, of course. I'll be glad when June 30 arrives and we can get back to playing traditional AL rivals.

If they really want to do this "regional rivalry" thing right, then expand to two more teams (to get 32) and break off into four major leagues (National, American, Eastern and Pacific), realign the leagues to suit time zones and such, shorten the season back to 154 games, and then the Cubs and White Sox can play 22 games a year against each other. The four pennant winners can then vie for the World Series - with no interleague play.

White Sox
Cubs
Cardinals
Brewers
Tigers
Twins
Astros
Rangers

All games would be in the Central Time Zone and I wouldn't have to stay up until 1:30 am watching a west coast swing.

Before people start posting replies, please note that I realize there is a 0% chance of this ever coming to fruition.

KingXerxes
06-20-2008, 11:14 PM
All the craziness is beyond wearying.

I was in Milwaukee (save the jokes please) until this afternoon, and didn't hear anything about what Ken Williams said about the Cubs until a friend of mine told me while watching the game with him. I watched Comcast Sports Night, and it showed a quote of Williams saying something to the effect that it's too bad that Cubs fans didn't enjoy the White Sox winning the 2005 World Series????

Am I understanding this right?

Palehose Pete
06-20-2008, 11:16 PM
Thanks for showing a way to put it all in perspective. We've lived through and won the ALDS, ALCS and WS. We can see it for what it is: A rung on the ladder to October.

Go Sox!

hawkjt
06-20-2008, 11:18 PM
Personally, I would like to see them cut this series to 3 but add the brewers to the mix with the other 3 games annually. Then split the twins 6 with brewers into 3 brewers and 3 cubs...a little regional tourny type deal every year...Miller Park would be a fun road trip for sox fans with Summerfest going on...

What worries me is just winning games over this 9 game stretch. The cubs are the best team in baseball this year so we will struggle ...and then going to LA for 3 days in between to play the dodgers...this schedule sucks.. how many teams do 3 game trips to the west coast?

I am concerned that by the end of this 9 game stretch the sox will be in second or third place with a trading deadline looming...we could be sellers,not buyers.
So it is not the cubs per se but just the high quality team we face 6 times while the twins play the also ran brewers instead. Year in ,year out...it is a scheduling disadvantage for the sox. Oh, btw...losing 7 of the last 8 vs any team would get on my nerves. They own us right now.

JB98
06-20-2008, 11:29 PM
Personally, I would like to see them cut this series to 3 but add the brewers to the mix with the other 3 games annually. Then split the twins 6 with brewers into 3 brewers and 3 cubs...a little regional tourny type deal every year...Miller Park would be a fun road trip for sox fans with Summerfest going on...

What worries me is just winning games over this 9 game stretch. The cubs are the best team in baseball this year so we will struggle ...and then going to LA for 3 days in between to play the dodgers...this schedule sucks.. how many teams do 3 game trips to the west coast?

I am concerned that by the end of this 9 game stretch the sox will be in second or third place with a trading deadline looming...we could be sellers,not buyers.
So it is not the cubs per se but just the high quality team we face 6 times while the twins play the also ran brewers instead. Year in ,year out...it is a scheduling disadvantage for the sox. Oh, btw...losing 7 of the last 8 vs any team would get on my nerves. They own us right now.

C'mon. Be serious. We'd have to be 10 games out before KW would consider selling.

Rdy2PlayBall
06-20-2008, 11:29 PM
Yea, it's just one game, but now were 3.5 ahead in the division when we shouldn't have lost today and stayed at 4.5. I don't care that they arn't in out division and we lose to them, we still lose and out place has a good chance to go down. Every win matters in my opinion. Even though we do have a World Series in this century, Cubs fans are still the biggest braggers, nothing is going to stop that.

KingXerxes
06-20-2008, 11:29 PM
Personally, I would like to see them cut this series to 3 but add the brewers to the mix with the other 3 games annually. Then split the twins 6 with brewers into 3 brewers and 3 cubs...a little regional tourny type deal every year...Miller Park would be a fun road trip for sox fans with Summerfest going on...

What worries me is just winning games over this 9 game stretch. The cubs are the best team in baseball this year so we will struggle ...and then going to LA for 3 days in between to play the dodgers...this schedule sucks.. how many teams do 3 game trips to the west coast?

I am concerned that by the end of this 9 game stretch the sox will be in second or third place with a trading deadline looming...we could be sellers,not buyers.
So it is not the cubs per se but just the high quality team we face 6 times while the twins play the also ran brewers instead. Year in ,year out...it is a scheduling disadvantage for the sox. Oh, btw...losing 7 of the last 8 vs any team would get on my nerves. They own us right now.

For the White Sox to be in 3rd place after this 9 game stretch (if my math is right), they would practically have to lose every game and have Minnesota and Detroit run the table. If that happened, I wouldn't be mad the White Sox were in third, because they will have shown the world that they deserve to be in third.

The Los Angeles Dodgers are no good. The National League West is no good. The Cubs are a bit banged up. If the White Sox pull an "0-fer" on this swing I'll be absolutely shocked.

Viva Medias B's
06-20-2008, 11:32 PM
Look, having a .492 winning percentage against our social archrival is not something to be proud of. Yes, we did beat them to the proverbial "Holy Grail" and become the first Chicago team to win a World Series championship in our collective lifetime. For most of us, myself included, this was the greatest sports moment will experience in our collective lifetime (despite whatever happens henceforth). However, I am not about living in the past. I am not going to rest on our team's 2005 laurels. I am not going to sit back and say "Well, it's okay that we lost to the Cubs because we won the World Serires in 2005 while they are still pining for a World Series championship which they have not win since 1908." We need to WIN against our social archrival. By doing so, it's the only way I know which we can tell the Cubbie-loving local media to stick all their Cubbie love where the sun does not shine.

SoxandtheCityTee
06-20-2008, 11:37 PM
I was in Milwaukee (save the jokes please) until this afternoon, and didn't hear anything about what Ken Williams said about the Cubs until a friend of mine told me while watching the game with him. I watched Comcast Sports Night, and it showed a quote of Williams saying something to the effect that it's too bad that Cubs fans didn't enjoy the White Sox winning the 2005 World Series????

Am I understanding this right?

Who knows. I was busy watching ESPN quote Ozzie's joke today that the rats in the indoor, below-grade area used for rainy day BP at Wrigley are as big as pigs. On the tape you hear and see the reporters laughing, but instead ESPN just read the quote in somber tones, as if Ozzie had violated some very serious taboo.

And no offense, Viva, I know you speak from the heart, but social archrivals? Haven't had one since high school.

JB98
06-20-2008, 11:41 PM
Who knows. I was busy watching ESPN quote Ozzie's joke today that the rats in the indoor, below-grade area used for rainy day BP at Wrigley are as big as pigs. On the tape you hear and see the reporters laughing, but instead ESPN just read the quote in somber tones, as if Ozzie had violated some very serious taboo.

And no offense, Viva, I know you speak from the heart, but social archrivals? Haven't had one since high school.

Most Cubs fans still behave like they are in high school.

"Look at us, we're popular. Everyone loves the Cubbies!"

I wasn't popular in high school. I'm not popular now. Fortunately, now that I'm 31 years old, that doesn't matter too much anymore.

KingXerxes
06-20-2008, 11:41 PM
Look, having a .492 winning percentage against our social archrival is not something to be proud of. Yes, we did beat them to the proverbial "Holy Grail" and become the first Chicago team to win a World Series championship in our collective lifetime. For most of us, myself included, this was the greatest sports moment will experience in our collective lifetime (despite whatever happens henceforth). However, I am not about living in the past. I am not going to rest on our team's 2005 laurels. I am not going to sit back and say "Well, it's okay that we lost to the Cubs because we won the World Serires in 2005 while they are still pining for a World Series championship which they have not win since 1908." We need to WIN against our social archrival. By doing so, it's the only way I know which we can tell the Cubbie-loving local media to stick all their Cubbie love where the sun does not shine.

You have no friends who are Cubs fans?

WhiteSox5187
06-20-2008, 11:42 PM
I took this loss very hard today...I don't take losses well, but today was especially bad for a variety of reasons...I know it's cool now to say "Oh I would rather play the Royals..." well these games count as much as the games we play against the Royals or Twins or Tigers. The best way to stay in first place is to win games, and we didn't do that today. Add to that fact taht this game should have been a blown out, there's a lot of frusturation. On top of that, the bullpen blew this one, even more frusturation. On top of that the fact it was to the Cubs and you have to hear those bastards trying to remember the words to "Go Cubs Go" you get a mountain of frusturation. And, for me at least, it seemed eerily reminicent of last year's series when we just completely fell apart after dropping two out of three (and we had a lead going into the latter innings in each of those games) you get an explosion of anger, hatred and frusturation. Some people take it out on this board, other people punch walls, today I did both. But a win tommorrow would do a lot to soothe my fears and my anger.

Viva Medias B's
06-20-2008, 11:55 PM
And no offense, Viva, I know you speak from the heart, but social archrivals? Haven't had one since high school.

No offense taken. In high school terms, Brother Rice is the social archrival for this Marist grad (and, too, Mother McAuley being another social archrival with Marist now being co-ed). Yet, the fully appreciate one's membership in this thing called the culture of Chicago White Sox baseball, we must consider the Chicago National League Ballclub, Inc., our social archrival. In the American League, who is our archrival? Usually, it's the AL Central (and AL West, pre-1994) team that poses the most lethal threat to our winning the divison. In the late '70s, it was Kansas City. By the early '90s, when we finally began to contend after our 1983 divisional triumph, it was TLR's Oakland Athletics. Then it was the Minnesota Twins with Kent Hrbek and Kirby Puckett. Then it was the Cleveland Indians with Carlos Baerga, Kenny Lofton, and Albert Belle. In the old days, in AL archrival was always the New York Yankees. But since the advent of divisonal play, we have never had a longstanding archrival. And in this Chicago world where every one of us White Sox fans possesses flubsessed molecules in our bodies (to varying amonts of degree amongst us), none of us look at losing to the Cubs lightly. You can call me "flubsessed" all you want, but do not you dare as a Chicago White Sox baseball afcionado accept a .492 winning percentage against the Chicago National League Ballclub, Inc.

Soxman219
06-20-2008, 11:55 PM
Yea, it's just one game, but now were 3.5 ahead in the division when we shouldn't have lost today and stayed at 4.5. I don't care that they arn't in out division and we lose to them, we still lose and out place has a good chance to go down. Every win matters in my opinion. Even though we do have a World Series in this century, Cubs fans are still the biggest braggers, nothing is going to stop that.

I saw the game and I was not happy that we lost a game in our lead in the division. The Sox need to start winning on the road tomorrow. We are on a 7 game road losing streak that must be stopped. If they can win in Wrigley, then they can win anywhere.

And who cares what Cubs fans say, they have nothing to brag about.

KingXerxes
06-20-2008, 11:56 PM
Who knows. I was busy watching ESPN quote Ozzie's joke today that the rats in the indoor, below-grade area used for rainy day BP at Wrigley are as big as pigs. On the tape you hear and see the reporters laughing, but instead ESPN just read the quote in somber tones, as if Ozzie had violated some very serious taboo.

And no offense, Viva, I know you speak from the heart, but social archrivals? Haven't had one since high school.

I saw some quotes attributed to Ken Williams speaking about how it's too bad that certain sections of the city did not celebrate the White Sox 2005 World Series triumph (or something to that effect).

Maybe I'm way off base with what he said or meant, but I can't believe he is serious about that statement, and if he's not serious then it's just a baiting comment, and totally inappropriate for a general manager to utter (Not as inappropriate as Reinsdorf's "I hope we play St. Louis then Cubs fans won't know who to cheer for" comment after the White Sox had won the pennant in 2005 - What a buffoon). You've just won a pennant, yet somehow the obsession over the Cubs continues.

If Cubs fans would have gone crazy in 2005 celebrating the White Sox World Series, this would have been viewed as band wagon jumping of the Nth degree.

I don't want to get too cerebral about this whole topic, but it seems like the organization is collectively suffering from an inferiority complex. Even after winning the World Series, their representatives still throw out this crap - and frankly it's getting old. From the signs outside of Wrigley Field (Major League Baseball 8 Miles South), to stupid Southtown billboards (Great Day - Sox Win, Cubs lose a doubleheader), to the assinine comments of Reinsdorf, Williams and Guillen. Yet I have never heard a peep from Cubs ownership or management except "congratulations" and "they are a good team" etc.

Forget the fan backwash on this issue, I just wish the organization would take the high road. Seemingly they can't.

Viva Medias B's
06-20-2008, 11:58 PM
You have no friends who are Cubs fans?

I do, but that does not mean I have to tolerate losing to their team.

It's Time
06-21-2008, 12:05 AM
I saw some quotes attributed to Ken Williams speaking about how it's too bad that certain sections of the city did not celebrate the White Sox 2005 World Series triumph (or something to that effect).

Maybe I'm way off base with what he said or meant, but I can't believe he is serious about that statement, and if he's not serious then it's just a baiting comment, and totally inappropriate for a general manager to utter (Not as inappropriate as Reinsdorf's "I hope we play St. Louis then Cubs fans won't know who to cheer for" comment after the White Sox had won the pennant in 2005 - What a buffoon). You've just won a pennant, yet somehow the obsession over the Cubs continues.

If Cubs fans would have gone crazy in 2005 celebrating the White Sox World Series, this would have been viewed as band wagon jumping of the Nth degree.

I don't want to get too cerebral about this whole topic, but it seems like the organization is collectively suffering from an inferiority complex. Even after winning the World Series, their representatives still throw out this crap - and frankly it's getting old. From the signs outside of Wrigley Field (Major League Baseball 8 Miles South), to stupid Southtown billboards (Great Day - Sox Win, Cubs lose a doubleheader), to the assinine comments of Reinsdorf, Williams and Guillen. Yet I have never heard a peep from Cubs ownership or management except "congratulations" and "they are a good team" etc.

Forget the fan backwash on this issue, I just wish the organization would take the high road. Seemingly they can't.

King:

I said the same thing yesterday in the KW thread wishing the Cubs fans a "happy anniversary".

It just fuels a stereotype and when it comes from the top brass of the team, well, it's embarrassing.

There is no reason to do it and like you said, the Cubs organization has been nothing but respectful of the White Sox in public. They may feel differently when the microphone and camera is not on, but they never take it to the press.

KW and Ozzie need to grow up.

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 12:05 AM
I do, but that does not mean I have to tolerate losing to their team.

The only way you could avoid tolerating the fact that the White Sox lost a game to the Cubs would either be to change the score (impossible) or totally cut yourself off from the issue (which I seriously doubt you're going to do).

Granted you don't have to enjoy tolerating a loss to the Cubs - I doubt many White Sox fans do.:smile:

Viva Medias B's
06-21-2008, 12:06 AM
I saw some quotes attributed to Ken Williams speaking about how it's too bad that certain sections of the city did not celebrate the White Sox 2005 World Series triumph (or something to that effect).

Despite what I have posted during the past 15 minutes about this social archrivalry, I see this criticism of KW as legit. He gets on Cub fans who did not cheer for us in 2005, yet would any of us the White Sox diehards cheer for the Cubs should they make it to the World Series? KW left himself open for criticism after that one!

kjhanson
06-21-2008, 12:06 AM
My buddy got to try on one of the grounds crew's W.S. rings a couple weeks ago, and I have a picture of it on my phone. Any **** talking I receive through text message is responded to with that picture message.

CHISOXFAN13
06-21-2008, 12:07 AM
Look, having a .492 winning percentage against our social archrival is not something to be proud of. Yes, we did beat them to the proverbial "Holy Grail" and become the first Chicago team to win a World Series championship in our collective lifetime. For most of us, myself included, this was the greatest sports moment will experience in our collective lifetime (despite whatever happens henceforth). However, I am not about living in the past. I am not going to rest on our team's 2005 laurels. I am not going to sit back and say "Well, it's okay that we lost to the Cubs because we won the World Serires in 2005 while they are still pining for a World Series championship which they have not win since 1908." We need to WIN against our social archrival. By doing so, it's the only way I know which we can tell the Cubbie-loving local media to stick all their Cubbie love where the sun does not shine.

This isn't the battle of Pulaski.

Viva Medias B's
06-21-2008, 12:09 AM
This isn't the battle of Pulaski.

Great Pulaski Rice-Marist reference! And before you posted that, I did use it as a reply earlier.

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 12:12 AM
King:

I said the same thing yesterday in the KW thread wishing the Cubs fans a "happy anniversary".

It just fuels a stereotype and when it comes from the top brass of the team, well, it's embarrassing.

There is no reason to do it and like you said, the Cubs organization has been nothing but respectful of the White Sox in public. They may feel differently when the microphone and camera is not on, but they never take it to the press.

KW and Ozzie need to grow up.

I just can't fathom what they think they're going to accomplish with crap lilke that. Honestly, do they think that this "logic" is going to win a larger fan base over to them (e.g. a massive exodus of Cubs fans over to the White Sox), or somehow make them more popular?

I don't like a "sore loser", but I can understand while a sore loser might not be able to keep his mouth in gear with his brain. These guys come off like "sore winners", and look monumentally worse.

As far as Cubs management, as businessmen I'm certain it was killing them that the White Sox made it to the altar in 2005, but somehow they resisted the temptation to put "Go Astros" on the Wrigley Field marquee. I dread seeing what the braintrust at 35th and Shields has dreamt up should the Cubs ever make it there.

If you continually act inferior then people will start viewing you as inferior.

rwcescato
06-21-2008, 01:31 AM
I know we should have won this game today. The first 5 minutes after the Sox loss today I was very pissed. But then I realized that it's only one game. Let Cubs fans be happy today, let the Cubune and the media celebrate their team winning today. Every Cub fan that bothers you just take it in stride. We got a WS to look back on so until they win that they have nothing to say and real Cubs fans know that. I rather lose all 6 games and win the title. There is nothing we can say that will change the Sox overnight. They are who they are, a team that has great pitching but an offense that's inconsisent. I just which Danks could get more help, he's been our most consisent pitcher. We'll still be in first place even if we get swept (God forbid). Just have to cheer our team on, that's all we are able to do. If we do beat the Cubs at Wrigley I won't be bragging to Cubs fans, I'll be happy that we gained a game in the division.

Its only one game. We will win today. I predict a 6-3 final. And we have done well on ESPN this year. So I still think we can take 2 out of 3.
GO SOX!!!!

hawkjt
06-21-2008, 10:48 AM
Focusing on the positives...I liked our extra base hit production yesterday.
Now, today, wind will be blowing in or to right field so homers will be tough to come by...which might be bad for us. We are a homer team altho the cubs were also yesterday. But they have more high average hitters and speed so the next two days with a North/Northwest wind...could be tough on the Sox.
That is why I am still pissed...yesterday was the game we needed to get, like with the tigers last week in that first game ...after that...wipeout.

Call me pessimistic but I will be pleased if the sox get one game this weekend. Then next week vs the dodgers and the cubs...win 4 of 6 and things will be fine.

I heard Greg Walker today say that Carlos Quentin had his hand drained and he is feeling better...good. Man, how bad is a bruise if you have to have it drained?

Lip Man 1
06-21-2008, 11:23 AM
King:

Don't know if you saw this in the Sun-Times. It may not be politically correct but I think Ozzie is right with his comments.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1017575,CST-SPT-sox21.article

Lip

white sox bill
06-21-2008, 11:27 AM
Contrast this "fued" in 2008 against the Sox taking out a 1/3 page ad in the Trib congratulating them (cubs) on thier division title. That was either '84 or '89. How times have changed

Cuck the Fubs
06-21-2008, 12:12 PM
King:

Don't know if you saw this in the Sun-Times. It may not be politically correct but I think Ozzie is right with his comments.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1017575,CST-SPT-sox21.article

Lip

Great job by Ozzie, esp in refrence to Frank & Prior....I remember that nonsense Prior Watch:rolleyes:

Tragg
06-21-2008, 12:19 PM
Yes he's substantively correct.
But is that his role? To whine about media coverage. To
It's particularly questionable when he acts immaturely, then beats on players for not being up to his high standards of maturity.

rookie
06-21-2008, 12:31 PM
King:

Don't know if you saw this in the Sun-Times. It may not be politically correct but I think Ozzie is right with his comments.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1017575,CST-SPT-sox21.article

Lip

Thanks for posting. Ozzie said it exactly right. And you have to speak about things because if the media keeps putting a certain stereotype out there, eventually people accept it as true.

kitekrazy
06-21-2008, 07:07 PM
I know we should have won this game today. The first 5 minutes after the Sox loss today I was very pissed. But then I realized that it's only one game. Let Cubs fans be happy today, let the Cubune and the media celebrate their team winning today. Every Cub fan that bothers you just take it in stride. We got a WS to look back on so until they win that they have nothing to say and real Cubs fans know that. I rather lose all 6 games and win the title. There is nothing we can say that will change the Sox overnight. They are who they are, a team that has great pitching but an offense that's inconsisent. I just which Danks could get more help, he's been our most consisent pitcher. We'll still be in first place even if we get swept (God forbid). Just have to cheer our team on, that's all we are able to do. If we do beat the Cubs at Wrigley I won't be bragging to Cubs fans, I'll be happy that we gained a game in the division.

It could be that Sox were due for a real losing streak.

Or the Sox aren't as talented as we think, only on paper.

The season doesn't end this week so the latter can't be answered.

southside rocks
06-21-2008, 07:15 PM
Yes he's substantively correct.
But is that his role? To whine about media coverage. To
It's particularly questionable when he acts immaturely, then beats on players for not being up to his high standards of maturity.

I don't read it as whining, and I think a lot of other fans don't either. Ozzie's only saying what anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid will say, when asked certain questions. To me, totally not a big deal. :shrug:

Is it his role? Yeah, I think that unfortunately, it is his role to talk to the media. I bet he'd rather not, much of the time, but he doesn't have much of a choice.

I'm with Ozzie on this and I'm glad that he and KW are saying this stuff.

Sox
06-21-2008, 07:25 PM
Thanks for posting. Ozzie said it exactly right. And you have to speak about things because if the media keeps putting a certain stereotype out there, eventually people accept it as true.

Ozzie is very much on the mark with his comments. I agree with them 100%....I get sick of hearing about a cubs team that hasn't done anything notable in a 100 years.......lovable losers? yeah right...well for one as a Sox fan I'm sick and tired of hearing about the lovable losers and their 100 year old do nothing team....I say give the White Sox the respect and the proper credit that they are due....I really don't think that that is asking a whole lot.

whitesoxwin
06-21-2008, 07:30 PM
Ozzie is very much on the mark with his comments. I agree with them 100%....I get sick of hearing about a cubs team that hasn't done anything notable in a 100 years.......lovable losers? yeah right...well for one as a Sox fan I'm sick and tired of hearing about the lovable losers and their 100 year old do nothing team....I say give the White Sox the respect and the proper credit that they are due....I really don't think that that is asking a whole lot.


Let's see how much respect the ESPN idiots give us tomorrow night..

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 07:34 PM
King:

Don't know if you saw this in the Sun-Times. It may not be politically correct but I think Ozzie is right with his comments.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1017575,CST-SPT-sox21.article

Lip

Lip - I did not see the article until you linked it. Thanks.

Is Ozzie speaking the truth? Probably, but does that matter one iota to the situation that these clowns are creating for themselves? My answer would be no.

Since when is it acceptable in this or any other society to walk around and spout off what you think the truth is without regard to the situation or context in which you're speaking?

If you think your next door neighbor's wife got a crappy haircut, do you run around telling everybody - including your next door neighbor and his wife - that she looks like crap with her new "do"? I would hope not. It may be the truth (or your version of it) but the manner in which you ran around self-righteously opining on her hair cut only makes you look like an ignoramous. Only other dysfunctionally social clutzes will agree with your opinion AND the manner in which you delivered it.

Management of the White Sox is quickly heading down that road. Yesterday, as I understand it, Guillen was busy telling some Comcast drone that "everybody in the media hates coming to Wrigley Field". When the drone (Chuck Garfein?) stated that he doesn't mind coming to Wrigley Field, Guillen kind of shifted gears and said, "Well you'd rather come to our ballpark......everybody would, and you have to respect my opinion." (Or something to that effect).

I'm sorry - but I don't have to respect anybody's opinion on anything. I have to respect their RIGHT to an opinion, but that is a far cry from not being able to counter some ignoramous with a loud mouth. Where does Guillen get off that anything he spouts off is inarguable? The worst part of this whole charade is that - despite many, many baiting comments from the White Sox Organization - the Cubs have offered absolutely no response, only furthering the White Sox management's crybaby/inferiority image.

As far as the "Prior Watch" goes in 2004, it amazes me that something like this is brought up by Guillen. Four years ago, and it's still stuck in his craw? There is almost no doubt in my mind at this point that some sort of talking points memo gets circulated around this club's management, but that's not the entire issue. Assuming that Guillen's memory is crystal clear, and the "Prior Watch" really still hurts him on the inside, if I recall correctly the Cubs were in a fairly contested wild card race in 2004 (the Cardinals ran away with the division) while the White Sox played off and on .500 baseball that year. It could have been (although I certainly do not claim to have a Guillen-type memory) that the Cubs were more of a point of interest during that period.

Please remember that I'm not talking about fan's here, I'm talking about the ownership (and owner's agents) of the club. Fans will forever argue about this and that - usually to no conclusion, but when the guys running the show start whining they are making a huge long-term mistake.

soxpride724
06-21-2008, 07:42 PM
Ozzie is very much on the mark with his comments. I agree with them 100%....I get sick of hearing about a cubs team that hasn't done anything notable in a 100 years.......lovable losers? yeah right...well for one as a Sox fan I'm sick and tired of hearing about the lovable losers and their 100 year old do nothing team....I say give the White Sox the respect and the proper credit that they are due....I really don't think that that is asking a whole lot.


It's not asking alot, it's constanly being short changed and I don't blame some of us for being bitter for it.

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 07:47 PM
It's not asking alot, it's constanly being short changed and I don't blame some of us for being bitter for it.

Maybe this is the question that needs to be asked:

What percentage of the Tribune/Sun-Times readership do you think are White Sox fans, and what percentage do you think are Cubs fans?

I'll go first.

I think there are definitely more Cubs fans in the Chicagoland area than I think there are White Sox fans. If I had to put a number on it I would say 60/40 maybe as high as 65/35.

Now in that I think those are the numbers, it does not surprise me that both papers slant their coverages a bit more toward the Cubs.

In October of 2005, they devoted 100% of their coverage to the White Sox. Should Cubs management have complained at that point?

Added - I don't really think there are too many articles "celebrating" the fact that the Cubs haven't won a pennant in 63 years or a World Series in 100 years. I simply think those two facts are always referenced in articles when the Cubs are winning. Sort of a man bites dog take on the news.

JB98
06-21-2008, 08:02 PM
Maybe this is the question that needs to be asked:

What percentage of the Tribune/Sun-Times readership do you think are White Sox fans, and what percentage do you think are Cubs fans?

I'll go first.

I think there are definitely more Cubs fans in the Chicagoland area than I think there are White Sox fans. If I had to put a number on it I would say 60/40 maybe as high as 65/35.

Now in that I think those are the numbers, it does not surprise me that both papers slant their coverages a bit more toward the Cubs.

In October of 2005, they devoted 100% of their coverage to the White Sox. Should Cubs management have complained at that point?

Added - I don't really think there are too many articles "celebrating" the fact that the Cubs haven't won a pennant in 63 years or a World Series in 100 years. I simply think those two facts are always referenced in articles when the Cubs are winning. Sort of a man bites dog take on the news.

The volume of coverage itself is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. The fact that they can't keep the Cubs references out of the articles about the White Sox is particularly irritating. The White Sox are defined through the prism of the Cubs in too many cases, instead of being treated as their own entity.

When I'm at work, I read the Sun-Times coverage of the Cubs. As an assistant sports editor, that's what I do for a living. But on Sunday afternoon when I don't have to work, I'm not going to read anything about the Cubs. I'll read all the coverage of the White Sox, and I don't particularly care to read Cubbie references in those articles.

As far as your figures, I would say you're in the right ballpark. It's about 60/40. Most of these unscientific Web polls that the Chicago media put up pitting Sox fans against Cubs fans usually swing 60-40 in favor of the Cubs.

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 08:11 PM
The volume of coverage itself is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. The fact that they can't keep the Cubs references out of the articles about the White Sox is particularly irritating. The White Sox are defined through the prism of the Cubs in too many cases, instead of being treated as their own entity.

When I'm at work, I read the Sun-Times coverage of the Cubs. As an assistant sports editor, that's what I do for a living. But on Sunday afternoon when I don't have to work, I'm not going to read anything about the Cubs. I'll read all the coverage of the White Sox, and I don't particularly care to read Cubbie references in those articles.

As far as your figures, I would say you're in the right ballpark. It's about 60/40. Most of these unscientific Web polls that the Chicago media put up pitting Sox fans against Cubs fans usually swing 60-40 in favor of the Cubs.

But now it's White Sox management itself referencing the Cubs constantly. This is at least the 2nd time this year Guillen has moaned about the Cubs getting preferential treatment, Williams crying about how Cub fans didn't enjoy the White Sox series win, Williams stating that he would almost never consider taking the Cubs GM position etc. This has been going on for quite some time (2005 Reinsdorf post pennant stupid comment, hell even when Ed Farmer first got into the booth (a day of infamy) he would rail about the Cubs when giving out of town scores. The only thing that finally shut him up was when he made some sort of stupid proposition that if only three Cubs fans would prove that they are organ donors he would stop "picking on them". Evidently about 100,000 photocopied drivers licenses were waiting for him the next day).

If they want to be treated as equals, they should start acting like equals. They look like babies during the past week.

Lip Man 1
06-21-2008, 08:17 PM
King:

It's a very complex issue that you bring up.

Under "normal" conditions I'd probably agree with you and in fact I think both Kenny and Ozzie (particularly Kenny) says things that they shouldn't.

Kenny for example, as basically upper management of a multi million dollar corporation, makes himself look small at times (ditto for Hawk)

HOWEVER these are unique circumstances the Sox find themselves in (partially due to their own negligence in the 1980's).

If Kenny and Ozzie don't occasionally speak out then the garbage continues to slide without accountability. Right or wrong I've interviewed enough folks in the media to realize there is a bias towards the Cubs (now that may be based purely on a business decision.) Without Kenny and Ozzie speaking up which the media is basically bound to report on, then things would be swept under the rug...so I can understand the reasoning behind it.

Take the Prior watch.

In fact the Sox were in first place in 2004 at the All Star Break. Thomas had originally hurt that ankle in a game in Florida a few weeks earlier and was missing time because no one really knew what was wrong. Thomas not being in the lineup (or top of Ordonez being out) WAS a serious issue/story.

Given what Thomas had done in his career and how the 04 season was going a Thomas watch certainly would be justified.

Prior on the other hand had one season where he did squat in baseball yet certain media outlets are falling all over themselves on this.

Ozzie's comments today made folks remember (whether they wanted to or not) that situation.

So I guess I'd have to say that Ozzie and Kenny both have a right and obligation to speak out but I think they need to be more discreet on when they do it. You can win the battle and lose the war, use good judgment on issues that are so important (yet are being overlooked by the media) that the media outlets are chastised for their stupidity when it's brought up.

Lip

JB98
06-21-2008, 08:24 PM
But now it's White Sox management itself referencing the Cubs constantly. This is at least the 2nd time this year Guillen has moaned about the Cubs getting preferential treatment, Williams crying about how Cub fans didn't enjoy the White Sox series win, Williams stating that he would almost never consider taking the Cubs GM position etc. This has been going on for quite some time (2005 Reinsdorf post pennant stupid comment, hell even when Ed Farmer first got into the booth (a day of infamy) he would rail about the Cubs when giving out of town scores. The only thing that finally shut him up was when he made some sort of stupid proposition that if only three Cubs fans would prove that they are organ donors he would stop "picking on them". Evidently about 100,000 photocopied drivers licenses were waiting for him the next day).

If they want to be treated as equals, they should start acting like equals. They look like babies during the past week.

Basically, I think the Sox brass is guilty of taking the bait. It is stupid for a beat writer to ask Ozzie Guillen if he would ever consider managing the Cubs. Incredibly stupid question with no redeeming value whatsoever, but that's the kind of crap the city papers prefer to fill their column inches with.

TCQ has been struggling with a hand injury for over a month, and I've seen one article written about it total in both papers combined. Apparently, no one is interested in writing about the Sox No. 3 hitter. They'd rather have a bunch of puff pieces on whether Ozzie and Kenny would work for the Cubs and what they think of Wrigley Field. None of this crap is of any value to readers and none of it enhances anyone's knowledge of the game.

To some extent I agree with you. I wish they would just say no comment. But that's not really how KW and Ozzie are. They're are both the type of men who will err on the side of speaking their minds. I know both of them are sick and tired of answering stupid questions about the Cubs. Personally, I'm sick and tired of the Cubs period. I love the White Sox, and if I had my way, I'd ignore the Cubs entirely. But thanks to the crosstown series, if I want to follow the White Sox this weekend, I have no choice but to allow Cubbiedom into my life for a three-day period. It pretty much sucks.

KingXerxes
06-21-2008, 08:27 PM
King:

It's a very complex issue that you bring up.

Under "normal" conditions I'd probably agree with you and in fact I think both Kenny and Ozzie (particularly Kenny) says things that they shouldn't.

Kenny for example, as basically upper management of a multi million dollar corporation, makes himself look small at times (ditto for Hawk)

HOWEVER these are unique circumstances the Sox find themselves in (partially due to their own negligence in the 1980's).

If Kenny and Ozzie don't occasionally speak out then the garbage continues to slide without accountability. Right or wrong I've interviewed enough folks in the media to realize there is a bias towards the Cubs (now that may be based purely on a business decision.) Without Kenny and Ozzie speaking up which the media is basically bound to report on, then things would be swept under the rug...so I can understand the reasoning behind it.

Take the Prior watch.

In fact the Sox were in first place in 2004 at the All Star Break. Thomas had originally hurt that ankle in a game in Florida a few weeks earlier and was missing time because no one really knew what was wrong. Thomas not being in the lineup (or top of Ordonez being out) WAS a serious issue/story.

Given what Thomas had done in his career and how the 04 season was going a Thomas watch certainly would be justified.

Prior on the other hand had one season where he did squat in baseball yet certain media outlets are falling all over themselves on this.

Ozzie's comments today made folks remember (whether they wanted to or not) that situation.

So I guess I'd have to say that Ozzie and Kenny both have a right and obligation to speak out but I think they need to be more discreet on when they do it. You can win the battle and lose the war, use good judgment on issues that are so important (yet are being overlooked by the media) that the media outlets are chastised for their stupidity when it's brought up.

Lip

Lip - As always, well thought out and well written.

I really don't recall the details of 2004 concerning the Prior Watch - hell I don't even remember the Prior watch. All that being said, you and I are in total concert concerning the White Sox needing to recover their image (although I think the slide began in earnest in the late 1960's but went off a cliff in the 1980's).

If they are concerned about the coverage they are receiving, then they should speak "off the record" to whomever they wish and try to rectify the problems. On the record - Which is the only real path they can take to recover their image, they should act professionally.

While they may very well have a great argument to make, they are acting like seven year olds who didn't get their candy bar at the checkout line. If you want to scream, yell, cajole and pander to the media - make sure it's behind the scenes and leave yourself plenty of plausible denial. Right now they' coming off as putzes, and I'm sick of having to try and answer for them to Cubs fan friends.

FarWestChicago
06-21-2008, 09:38 PM
Yes he's substantively correct.
But is that his role? To whine about media coverage. To
It's particularly questionable when he acts immaturely, then beats on players for not being up to his high standards of maturity.You're right, Tragg. Ozzie's role is to play "slappers".

Tragg
06-21-2008, 10:05 PM
You're right, Tragg. Ozzie's role is to play "slappers".
Only if the hackers are having a bad day.

Viva Medias B's
06-21-2008, 10:41 PM
I agree with this strategy of calling out the media on their bias against us. I also agree with attacking this nonsense about Wrigley Field being heaven on earth when it is really a dump compared to our ballpark. I think the locker rooms in Loyola's old Alumni Gym can compete with Wrigley's visitors' clubhouse in the comfort category. Why the hell do you think TribCo tried to sell Wrigley Field to the State of Illinois and put forth a major renovation? The place is a dump, and they know it.

cheezheadsoxfan
06-21-2008, 11:52 PM
I agree with this strategy of calling out the media on their bias against us. I also agree with attacking this nonsense about Wrigley Field being heaven on earth when it is really a dump compared to our ballpark. I think the locker rooms in Loyola's old Alumni Gym can compete with Wrigley's visitors' clubhouse in the comfort category. Why the hell do you think TribCo tried to sell Wrigley Field to the State of Illinois and put forth a major renovation? The place is a dump, and they know it.

Totally agree. The media is going to slam us no matter what so we might as well tell the truth. This Wrigley shrine **** has gotten insane.

A Cub fan at work today was talking about getting goosebumps when he walks in there. "From what" I asked, "the smell of urine". He then proceeded to compare it to Lambeau Field. Now I happen to be a Packer fan (I'm a born southsider but my dad was a Cardinals fan who hated Halas) and Lambeau has seen it share of success and championships. Wrigley has seen 100 years of ****ty baseball. These fools can't think beyond the media BS.

He then brought up attendance of course. "Look at all the people who go even when they are losing, what do you call that". "Sheep" I said. I think Cub fans from outside Chicago are way worse than natives. They have no concept that half the people at a Cub game don't even know what is happening on the field.

End of rant. Sorry, but like all here it was a rough day.

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 08:30 AM
While they may very well have a great argument to make, they are acting like seven year olds who didn't get their candy bar at the checkout line. If you want to scream, yell, cajole and pander to the media - make sure it's behind the scenes and leave yourself plenty of plausible denial. Right now they' coming off as putzes, and I'm sick of having to try and answer for them to Cubs fan friends.

Clearly, some may read it this way, but I think a lot of fans do not. I definitely don't.

I appreciate that the GM of the Sox is not a corporate suit like Crane Kenny or Jim Hendry or Andy McPhail. Kenny is a jock, a former pro athlete. He's been hailed as one of the better GMs in the business, and with the exception of last year (which we know didn't sit well with any of us), he's built exciting and competitive teams here on the south side of Chicago.

I appreciate that the manager of the Sox is a former player who all during his career has been known for two things: his excellent baseball acumen, and his inability to keep his yap shut. Carlton Fisk even said on his recent 'day' at the Cell that Ozzie's like that and he was that way even as a player. It's who he is. He's not a Joe Torre, wouldn't-say-****-if-he-had-a-mouthful, type; he's a volatile and outspoken guy.

For the last few years, I have bought season tickets because of KW and Ozzie. I have followed the Sox for 40 years, some years more than others, but I put lots of disposable income into my fanship now because I admire, respect, and appreciate KW and Ozzie and the teams they have brought to this city.

If they want to answer insanely stupid and childish questions from the stupid news media by giving their opinions of Wrigley Field and "Cubdom" in general, I say good for them -- I don't think they should hold back, so long as they have considered in advance what the effect of their words will be on their organization. And I am sure that they have done that. (I didn't see that JR came out and disavowed any of the comments of this weekend, for instance.)

I never feel I have to answer for KW or Ozzie to anyone. That's not my job, they didn't ask me to do that, and when they do something that I do think is over the top, I pretty much accept that they're gonna do that sometimes and it's certainly no reflection on me or my being a fan.

Obviously, there are many different views of this!

#1swisher
06-22-2008, 09:42 AM
It makes no difference to me that todays game was against the Cubs. What matters is we blew another game we should have won. At some point these games start adding up.

exactly...Cubs who? I want to win games.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 10:08 AM
Obviously, there are many different views of this!

There can be no doubt of this statement, and I suspect almost every White Sox fan agrees in some respect to the statements being made about the Cubs (by White Sox management) over the past week or so. While that is all well and good with the existing fan base, it serves to the detriment of what the White Sox organization needs to accomplish - and that is to increase the fan base.

I don't think there is too much argument that there are more Cubs fans in the Chicagoland area than there are White Sox fans. This situation has been aggravated over the years by what I consider to be several very large mistakes by the organization. A lot of times this has been caused by ownership "always going for the best deal at the time". The switch to pay-per-view and the release of Harry Caray were tragic decisions, followed by threats to move the team to St. Petersburg until a stadium deal was had, followed by constantly defending a stadium and denying any deficiencies until ultimately some fairly major improvements were made to the park.

Most people by now realize that I think having Ken Harrelson in the booth has served absolutely no purpose in increasing viewership. I realize that a lot of people love him, but I contend that - as your single largest public relations representative - he falls far, far short of what is needed.

All of the above decisions rest with the management of this club - not with Wrigley Field, the media, the Cubs or any other third party. This team is marketed very poorly in an overall sense and can only draw when they win. The White Sox "brand" (if you will) doesn't have any sort of permanent feature to it. Cubs management was very smart in tying the Cubs "brand" to Wrigley Field and it worked. Whether or not Wrigley Field is a dump, no amount of White Sox management, players and fans are going to be able to scream loud enough to change the minds of Cubs fans. The formula worked for them. I have to believe that any new owner is going to realize this as well, and will do whatever they can in order to preserve the dynamic. I suspect the truly scary dynamic to White Sox ownership is that a new owner comes in and works with the city to improve the parking situation around Wrigley, and then spends money in a renovation of the facility while maintaining most of its major characteristics.

The White Sox tried over the years to differentiate themselves from the Cubs by marketing the fact that they were a better team and played better baseball. While that works when true, it has a tendency to not work when the Cubs are a better team. Again, there was no permanence in the plan. This is the dynamic everybody is seeing now. While the Cubs may or may not be the best team in baseball, I suspect their fandom views their winning as icing on the cake. One would have to presume that they are not Cubs fans solely for the winning aspect of the game, but have been hooked in by something in addition to wins and losses. When the Cubs are winning, it is pretty tough competition for the White Sox.

I don't want to sound like I think that every move the White Sox have made is a bad one, because I don't. I think their investment in summer camps and their move to make players more accessible at these types of things is a great long-term move. They simply need to do more things now that won't pay immediate dividends to get a bigger share of the market. Play a few more weekday day games when school is out, and discount the ticket prices for kids. I watched the Cubs have Lady's Day for years and allow kids into the ballpark for next to nothing in the 1960's and 1970's. Well guess what, those kids grow up and turn into ticket buying Cubs fans. They grew up in Wrigley Field and have an irrational attachment (but an attachment nevertheless) to the place. No amount of criticism of the team's record or its ballpark is going to convince any of them otherwise.

I realize these are simply my opinions and observations, but I am fairly certain that ths recent spate of "attack, attack, attack" is not going to carry the day. As I type this I'm watching a video of John Danks wearing a clothespin on his nose as he's playing catch at Wrigley........they just don't get it.

MCHSoxFan
06-22-2008, 10:20 AM
exactly...Cubs who? I want to win games.

Yes! That is the ONLY **** that actually matters. We can beat the Cubs or we can beat KC. I don't give a crap! JUST WIN!

FYI- It still stings a lil more when we lose to the Cubs, though, But still, just WIN!!!

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 10:50 AM
There can be no doubt of this statement, and I suspect almost every White Sox fan agrees in some respect to the statements being made about the Cubs (by White Sox management) over the past week or so. While that is all well and good with the existing fan base, it serves to the detriment of what the White Sox organization needs to accomplish - and that is to increase the fan base.
...

I realize these are simply my opinions and observations, but I am fairly certain that ths recent spate of "attack, attack, attack" is not going to carry the day. As I type this I'm watching a video of John Danks wearing a clothespin on his nose as he's playing catch at Wrigley........they just don't get it.

All very good points, and I agree with those points, but I'm not sure I reach the same conclusion from them that you do.

Will excellent marketing serve to increase the Sox fan base in the Chicago area to a size comparable to that of the Cub fan base in that same area?

I think that the answer is no, it won't. I think that the Cubs organization has two aces that the Sox organization can never trump: one is WGN and the part it has already played, in the past decades, in building the brand and the fan base; the other is Wrigley Field. And Wrigley Field is an ace NOT so much because it is a shrine, and all that nonsense, but because of its location. It is in an area -- and gives its name to an area -- that is absolutely crammed with the type of consumer that any ball club wants to attract: young, relatively affluent, and often transient (that is, from other cities or counties). I think it cannot be overstated what Wrigley Field has meant to the Cubs resurgance -- and I remember back in the 1970's when the Cubs didn't draw any kind of crowds (and Lee Elia remembers it too). That was when the neighborhood was not nearly as gentrified and populated as it is now. Coincidence? Doubt it.

Right with those two factors, the Sox have a handicap they can never overcome, and they will never win that race. That's not a fact, it's my opinion.

Then there are a myriad of other factors that come into play, but it's almost pointless to delineate them because the two biggies, WGN and Wrigley, still loom over the discussion.

Should the Sox brass comport themselves in another, perhaps better, fashion? That would mean that the owner, JR, wanted an agenda other than the current one, and since he's had success with this one, that's probably not going to happen this year. I think that JR has concluded that his organization is suited to the role of underdog and he's trying to use that as his identity card now.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 11:06 AM
I think that JR has concluded that his organization is suited to the role of underdog and he's trying to use that as his identity card now.

Good point - and one I agree with, but they are presently not acting like underdogs, they are acting like whiners. People like underdogs because it gives them a feeling of helping out somebody who doesn't have a powerful voice in an issue. People do not like to associate themselves with whiners though.

An image is a long-term thing to build. The White Sox seems to either lack the will or the attention span to stick with anything. WGN certainly is a powerful tradition for the Cubs, so how do the White Sox deal with it? They move from WMVP to WSCR and in a few years they'll jump somewhere else for the short money. I agree that Wrigley Field is a HUGE trump card for the Cubs, so why is White Sox management (and to way too large of an extent the fan base) constantly obsessing over it? If your competition has a big advantage, I don't think it's too smart to keep bringing it up.

US Cellular has definite advantages. Tout them, talk about them - but PLEASE quit doing it in a comparative manner with Wrigley Field. It's like Cadillac comparing a 2008 CTS with a 1932 Dusenberg. Absolutely the Cadillac has all the modern advantages of automotive engineering - but most people would take the Dusenberg (despite its poor mileage, oil leaks and overheating). The problem is, with each passing year the Dusenberg will become more and more valuable while the Cadillac depreciates. They need to get out of the collector car business.

Brian26
06-22-2008, 11:36 AM
I also agree with attacking this nonsense about Wrigley Field being heaven on earth when it is really a dump compared to our ballpark. I think the locker rooms in Loyola's old Alumni Gym can compete with Wrigley's visitors' clubhouse in the comfort category.

I agree that Wrigley is a dump, but the argument should be based from a fan's experience. Fans that go to the games never set foot in the clubhouse, so the conditions down there are inconsequential to whether or not people have a good time at a game and want to spend their money there again in the future. I think better arguments would be:

the narrow cavernous concourses
despicable bathrooms
poor concession stands
lack of aisle room
low upper deck that makes it impossible to see the scoreboard or flyballs from seats halfway up the lower deck
lack of televisions or scoreboard replays to explain what has happened on close plays
seats down the lines that don't face homeplate
lack of parking at the stadium and in the neighborhood
general lack of room making it take forever to get out of the ballpark

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 11:44 AM
KX:

Well, I don't think KW is temperamentally suited to any kind of underdog role -- I think it's as alien to him as classical ballet poses would be. I bet he expected more respect for 2005 than he's been given by the media in this city. And I imagine that it galls him to see the fawning over the Cubs in the year that they at last have a good team: the World Series talk started in April, for goodness sake. In 2006, when the Sox had a very good team and played extremely well (until the ASB, anyway) and were coming off a World Series win, they didn't get the adulation that the Cubs have gotten this year. That can't sit well with KW and JR.

The radio station affiliation is something that I think gets underestimated a lot. I grew up in Chicago (on the far south side) and listening to the radio because my parents never wanted or owned a TV. WGN is a unique station on the AM dial, in that it has retained its identity for the past 50 years and has been, really, 'the voice of Chicago' if only by default.

WSCR is a horrible station. Its programming is total crap, and some of the jocks (Mike North, at least) insult the intelligence of every sports fan. Also, it's a sports station and therefore limited in its audience, where WGN is way more far-reaching. WMVP is better than WSCR but not by much. I choose to pay for radio so I can listen to MLB HomePlate on XM satellite radio and get my baseball fix without having my eardrums assaulted and my intelligence insulted.

So the Sox organization probably can't find a comp to WGN for its radio brand.

Totally agree with you about the advantages of the Cell and the need to play them up. I would love it if the Sox would stop ALL references to Wrigley, and when asked about it, say something like "well, we really miss playing at US Cellular because there we have --" (rat-free clubhouses, better concessions, more room for fans to enjoy the game, more fan amenities, and endless other nice things). Don't let the opposition get you to even mention their brand! Wrigley is what it is -- a piece of baseball history. You're right, it's in a different category from the Cell, and comparisons will not benefit the Sox.

LITTLE NELL
06-22-2008, 11:55 AM
Back in the 50s and 60s Chicago was a Sox town as they had 17 straight winning seasons while the Cubs floundered in the 2nd division. I dont know if that happened again that it would turn Chicago back into a Sox town again, not when the media fawns over the Cubs like they do, and they play in Wrigley.
As a previous poster stated, Sox management has made huge blunders down through the years starting in the late 60s when the Sox left WGN for WFLD-32 so they could televise all their games. Problem was very few people had TVs with UHF. To me that was the biggest blunder of them all along with the Sportsvision fiasco in the early 80s that made Harry Caray switch to the northside.
The Sox right now probably have a fan base of about 40% of the metro area which is still larger than most teams in MLB. We are drawing about 28,000 a game with horrible weather so things could be worse.
This franchise has to stop obsessing with the Cubs and stop making dumb statements in the media and go about the business of winning games. We have a pretty good decade going as far as winning games except for 07.Winning is the best marketing tool of them all.

jabrch
06-22-2008, 12:06 PM
Back in the 50s and 60s Chicago was a Sox town as they had 17 straight winning seasons while the Cubs floundered in the 2nd division. I dont know if that happened again that it would turn Chicago back into a Sox town again, not when the media fawns over the Cubs like they do, and they play in Wrigley.
As a previous poster stated, Sox management has made huge blunders down through the years starting in the late 60s when the Sox left WGN for WFLD-32 so they could televise all their games. Problem was very few people had TVs with UHF. To me that was the biggest blunder of them all along with the Sportsvision fiasco in the early 80s that made Harry Caray switch to the northside.
The Sox right now probably have a fan base of about 40% of the metro area which is still larger than most teams in MLB. We are drawing about 28,000 a game with horrible weather so things could be worse.
This franchise has to stop obsessing with the Cubs and stop making dumb statements in the media and go about the business of winning games. We have a pretty good decade going as far as winning games except for 07.Winning is the best marketing tool of them all.


Nell - The question in my eyes is why do so many Sox fans care so much about how many other fans come to games, and what the local media says about us?

I love the Sox - and don't care about the media or the Cubs stuff. Maybe I did a bit more when I was younger - but 2005 changed a lot. Now I want to continue enjoying Sox baseball, and then to get back to the WS again - not to worry about what others think of the Sox.

Why do you think some people are so focused on the Cubs, the media, and the image we have?

Paulwny
06-22-2008, 12:07 PM
Back in the 50s and 60s Chicago was a Sox town as they had 17 straight winning seasons while the Cubs floundered in the 2nd division. I dont know if that happened again that it would turn Chicago back into a Sox town again, not when the media fawns over the Cubs like they do, and they play in Wrigley.
As a previous poster stated, Sox management has made huge blunders down through the years starting in the late 60s when the Sox left WGN for WFLD-32 so they could televise all their games. Problem was very few people had TVs with UHF. To me that was the biggest blunder of them all along with the Sportsvision fiasco in the early 80s that made Harry Caray switch to the northside.
The Sox right now probably have a fan base of about 40% of the metro area which is still larger than most teams in MLB. We are drawing about 28,000 a game with horrible weather so things could be worse.
This franchise has to stop obsessing with the Cubs and stop making dumb statements in the media and go about the business of winning games. We have a pretty good decade going as far as winning games except for 07.Winning is the best marketing tool of them all.

A return to the playoffs in 06 would have been big in turning the fan base around.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 12:10 PM
So the Sox organization probably can't find a comp to WGN for its radio brand.

I don't want to look like I''m crying over spilt milk, but they had WBBM back in the hey days of the mid-late 1970's and it worked.

Tell me if I'm missing any here:

WTAQ (out of La Grange)
WIND
WBBM
WMVP
WSCR
WCFL (I think)

Maybe one of the resident historians can clarify this, but this is six radio stations in the last 35 years or so.

WFLD-TV
WCIU-TV
WSNS-TV
WGN-TV
SPORTS CHANNEL
COMCAST SPORTS NET

Six television stations as well.

They aren't underdogs, they're nomads.:scratch:

Cuck the Fubs
06-22-2008, 12:11 PM
A return to the playoffs in 06 would have been big in turning the fan base around.

I think one very large thing is getting overlooked here.........alot of kids are sporting Sox gear ( even this year with all the Cubbie Hype ) The returns on 2005 maybe won't be seen until these little guys grow into paying ticket holders.

SoxandtheCityTee
06-22-2008, 12:31 PM
Here on the near south side the worm has turned. Young people and empty nesters alike are moving in, are an El stop or two away from the Cell, and are choosing the Sox. It will take the national media some time to catch up. I don't care. It's fun to see the Sox hats everywhere.

I may not like everything Kenny and Ozzie say or do but they have my permission to be themselves. I respect the thoughtful discussion but I hold to my view that those who live far away, those who never have to see a Trib or SunTimes headline unless they seek it out on the net, those whose local newscasts do not originate here, can't dictate the reactions of those who live in this two-team town to the media. It's in the nature of some people to care, and others not to, just the way some are bent out of shape and others aren't by just about anything else that happens to the Sox.

rookie
06-22-2008, 01:05 PM
I think one very large thing is getting overlooked here.........alot of kids are sporting Sox gear ( even this year with all the Cubbie Hype ) The returns on 2005 maybe won't be seen until these little guys grow into paying ticket holders.

That is true. I teach in Naperville, and I will say it's a pretty even split with the kids. True, it's South Naperville, which is real close to I-55, but still. Plus for a suburban family, they feel more comfortable driving, then dealing with the el. Plus the Cell is just naturally more family friendly than Wrigley.

Also I have many friends that like the Cubs that can hardly get to a game due to prices and availibility of tickets. Imagine a regular family trying to get to a game. Kids are driven by what they can personally experience.

Give it 5-10 years especially if the Sox can play good ball.

SoxGirl4Life
06-22-2008, 01:07 PM
That is true. I teach in Naperville, and I will say it's a pretty even split with the kids. True, it's South Naperville, which is real close to I-55, but still. Plus for a suburban family, they feel more comfortable driving, then dealing with the el. Plus the Cell is just naturally more family friendly than Wrigley.

Also I have many friends that like the Cubs that can hardly get to a game due to prices and availibility of tickets. Imagine a regular family trying to get to a game. Kids are driven by what they can personally experience.

Give it 5-10 years especially if the Sox can play good ball.


There are two houses sporting Cubs flags here on my southwest side Chicago neighborhood. I have to remind myself that I am an adult to not rip those flags off those porches.

Lip Man 1
06-22-2008, 01:28 PM
King brings up a good point regarding radio / TV:

Radio since 1960:

WCFL
WMAQ
WTAQ / WEAW
WMAQ
WBBM
WMAQ
WMVP
WSCR

TV since 1960:

WGN
WFLD
WSNS
WGN
WFLD and Sportsvision
WFLD and Sportschannel
WGN and Sportschannel
WGN and Fox Sports Chicago
WGN , Fox Sports Network and WCIU
WGN, Comcast Sports Newtork and WCIU.

and Pawlny brings up a great point as well. To take back the city the Sox needed to make a run of multiple playoff appearances, they haven't.

Compounding matters is that if the Cubs make the post season (again) in 2008, it'll be three times in the past six years as compared to one for the Sox.

The Cub organization is supposed to be a bunch of clowns but obviously they've been doing something right on the field the past few years. I can't say why that is, but they are getting the results as far as post season slots.

Lip

October26
06-22-2008, 02:09 PM
There are two houses sporting Cubs flags here on my southwest side Chicago neighborhood. I have to remind myself that I am an adult to not rip those flags off those porches.


I know the feeling, SoxGirl4Life. Up here near me on the north side (Irving and Elston area), the "W" Cubbie flags are sprouting up everywhere, especially after the Cub wins the last two days over the Sox. The flags are on houses and on cars. I had to restrain myself yesterday and not rip one off a car. I looked at my children and thought, "Leave it alone, it is not worth it. Someone could see you and you get get arrested for whatever crime it is to rip flags off cars." But I must say I've been pretty mad with the results of the last couple of Sox games. I check in here on WSI every so often through out the day and read what other Sox fans are saying and thinking and I usually feel better. This particular thread reminds me to relax, so I'll work on that today, at least until the game starts.

Cuck the Fubs
06-22-2008, 02:20 PM
There are two houses sporting Cubs flags here on my southwest side Chicago neighborhood. I have to remind myself that I am an adult to not rip those flags off those porches.

I wish Cub fans showed your restraint, I live in Norridge and have had 3 White Sox flags torn off my house. :angry:

I finally settled on a vertical banner mounted to a pole you can't reach without at least a 6 foot ladder.

So far so good....

SoxGirl4Life
06-22-2008, 02:25 PM
I wish Cub fans showed your restraint, I live in Norridge and have had 3 White Sox flags torn off my house. :angry:

I finally settled on a vertical banner mounted to a pole you can't reach without at least a 6 foot ladder.

So far so good....


The guy across the street had his World Series flag stolen last year. And Sox fans are the thugs?

SoxGirl4Life
06-22-2008, 02:26 PM
I know the feeling, SoxGirl4Life. Up here near me on the north side (Irving and Elston area), the "W" Cubbie flags are sprouting up everywhere, especially after the Cub wins the last two days over the Sox. The flags are on houses and on cars. I had to restrain myself yesterday and not rip one off a car. I looked at my children and thought, "Leave it alone, it is not worth it. Someone could see you and you get get arrested for whatever crime it is to rip flags off cars." But I must say I've been pretty mad with the results of the last couple of Sox games. I check in here on WSI every so often through out the day and read what other Sox fans are saying and thinking and I usually feel better. This particular thread reminds me to relax, so I'll work on that today, at least until the game starts.


I hear ya. Its the only place I can go online that there isn't this "Cubs are on the way up, Sox are on the way down" theme to the articles. I'm doing my best to keep calm myself.

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 03:46 PM
They aren't underdogs, they're nomads.:scratch:

Yes. But an important point to consider is that all of those radio stations have changed significantly in their ownership and/or programming and demographic since, say, 1967 (when I began to follow the Sox). WGN radio has not.

The Sox were on WMAQ 670 when I began to listen to them, and that station was comparable in format to WGN. However, it changed several times over the decades, as did WIND and WBBM.

WGN stayed the same in ownership, broadcast wattage, format, language, and demographic -- plus, people whose parents listened to WGN were far more likely to themselves tune it in when they reached adulthood and parenthood.

The Sox have never been able to find and lock in such a station, and not because they haven't tried, but because there just aren't any on the AM dial in Chicago. Therefore, I believe that WGN radio has played a large role in developing, over the years, a big portion of the current fan base of the Cubs.

It's not simply that the Sox kept switching radio stations as they did, it's that the radio stations also switched and did not retain the same audiences.

white sox bill
06-22-2008, 03:49 PM
Yes. But an important point to consider is that all of those radio stations have changed significantly in their ownership and/or programming and demographic since, say, 1967 (when I began to follow the Sox). WGN radio has not.

The Sox were on WMAQ 670 when I began to listen to them, and that station was comparable in format to WGN. However, it changed several times over the decades, as did WIND and WBBM.

WGN stayed the same in ownership, broadcast wattage, format, language, and demographic -- plus, people whose parents listened to WGN were far more likely to themselves tune it in when they reached adulthood and parenthood.

The Sox have never been able to find and lock in such a station, and not because they haven't tried, but because there just aren't any on the AM dial in Chicago. Therefore, I believe that WGN radio has played a large role in developing, over the years, a big portion of the current fan base of the Cubs.

It's not simply that the Sox kept switching radio stations as they did, it's that the radio stations also switched and did not retain the same audiences.
Damn, thats a good point. Never looked at the radio side of this

chisox81'
06-22-2008, 03:51 PM
Hey Cuck The Fubs dont feel so bad.. I too live in Norridge and have to deal with the idiocy of the scrub fans around here.. In 06' when it was clear we were not going to make the playoffs, I was walking down the street with my pierzynski jersey when some cub fans drive by and tell me to take my jersey off because we suck now, I just told them it must suck to have a bad century. Anyways, im relaxed but we have to get after it tonight. Go SOX!!

viagracat
06-22-2008, 03:51 PM
I can't speak for everyone but some might agree w/me when saying that if this was a game against the Royals or some other random team we would be upset but nowhere near as upset as it is against the Cubs. The only reason why I and maybe a lot on this board got so angry was b/c of the fact that we'd have to get an ear full from Cubs fans for the rest of the night. But looking back I thought to myself, we're still in first place, didn't make good decisions today but we'll turn around and try to get em tomorrow. No need to blow it out of proportion way more than needed simply b/c it's the Cubs. Let them gloat for today and just remember, what have they done that we haven't? They've have beaten the Chicago White Sox but we have also beaten ourselves.(If there was a half teal i'd put the last sentence in that color)

Right. I certainly get pissed every time the Sox lose, and sure, a little more so when it's to the Cubs. But keep in mind the Cubs are world-beaters at home this year (so far at least) and I was not seriously expecting a Sox sweep at Wrigley. In some ways I was more bugged about losing two out of three at home to the Rocks last week. That's a series you have to win, period.

The Cubs, like everyone else this year, are mortal on the road and they'll be at our house this coming weekend. Expect a completely different series. :smile:

October26
06-22-2008, 04:00 PM
Hey Cuck The Fubs dont feel so bad.. I too live in Norridge and have to deal with the idiocy of the scrub fans around here.. In 06' when it was clear we were not going to make the playoffs, I was walking down the street with my pierzynski jersey when some cub fans drive by and tell me to take my jersey off because we suck now, I just told them it must suck to have a bad century. Anyways, im relaxed but we have to get after it tonight. Go SOX!!

:welcome:Hello and welcome. Good comeback for you on the "cubs sucking for a century." The nerve of those people to tell you to take your AJ jersey off. They're idiots, I tell you, idiots. Go Sox!

LITTLE NELL
06-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Damn, thats a good point. Never looked at the radio side of this
Radio may have a little to do with the growth of the Cubs fan base but trust me its WGN TV that grew their fan base. Their current base came home every day after school and turned on the Cubs with day baseball. Heck I even watched them because I worked evenings, naturally I pulled for the other team. I looked at it as 3 more hours of Bozos Circus.

viagracat
06-22-2008, 04:18 PM
In October of 2005, they devoted 100% of their coverage to the White Sox. Should Cubs management have complained at that point?



I've been a Tribune subscriber for many years, and I still have every wraparound and pullout the paper produced during the Sox postseason in 2005. It's a nice thick stack.

In reading this thread, I think Xerxes has been pretty spot-on. Yeah, there are a lot of "classy" Cub fans that will never get a clue, and I'm way past the point of caring about what they think anyway. I have a number of good friends who are die-hard Cub fans and while we have our back-and-forth, it's always done in fun and we're still friends after the game. That's the way it's supposed to be.

And yeah, it's demeaning to the organization and to what I consider "Sox Pride" when people spend more time hoping the Cubs find a way to screw up and whinin g about the current social status of the franchises than thinking about the White Sox. As to the former, I don't care! As to the latter, yes, the success of the Chicago White Sox is first and foremost in my mind. Always.

I will admit I was not always this way and that I was once "cubsessed" but 2005 and the wisdom that comes with age :cool: have made me more rational in this regard. At least I think so. :D:

Go Sox.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 04:25 PM
Radio may have a little to do with the growth of the Cubs fan base but trust me its WGN TV that grew their fan base. Their current base came home every day after school and turned on the Cubs with day baseball. Heck I even watched them because I worked evenings, naturally I pulled for the other team. I looked at it as 3 more hours of Bozos Circus.

I am certain that there are many reasons why things are what they are, but doesn't it strike you as a bit sad that the team that had a veritable LOCK on night baseball all the way up to 1988 (or thereabout) is the one trying to play catch-up in Chicago?

There's work to do - that's for certain, but to get back to my original point in this thread, walking down a "Bash the Cubs and Wrigley Field" road is not the way to get there. Again - this applies to ownership and not fans.

I realize that WGN is the same basic hodge podge format that it's always been, but that being said, when the White Sox were on WBBM in the 1970's it was the same station it is now. WMVP didn't change their format, but a switch was made to WSCR (a radio station I have ZERO use for) anyway, and it was made for short money's sake.

It is a given that you can't compete with the Cubs along the lines of ballpark or broadcast media - so don't. Differentiate yourself from the Cubs without slamming them because one day (maybe this year, maybe not) those chickens are going to come home to roost.

LITTLE NELL
06-22-2008, 04:26 PM
We are getting some national recognition, my new Walter Drake catalogue came yesterday and lo and behold on page 86 there's a kid in one of the ads wearing a Sox hat.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 04:28 PM
I've been a Tribune subscriber for many years, and I still have every wraparound and pullout the paper produced during the Sox postseason in 2005. It's a nice thick stack.

In reading this thread, I think Xerxes has been pretty spot-on. Yeah, there are a lot of "classy" Cub fans that will never get a clue, and I'm way past the point of caring about what they think anyway. I have a number of good friends who are die-hard Cub fans and while we have our back-and-forth, it's always done in fun and we're still friends after the game. That's the way it's supposed to be.

And yeah, it's demeaning to the organization and to what I consider "Sox Pride" when people spend more time hoping the Cubs find a way to screw up and whinin g about the current social status of the franchises than thinking about the White Sox. As to the former, I don't care! As to the latter, yes, the success of the Chicago White Sox is first and foremost in my mind. Always.

I will admit I was not always this way and that I was once "cubsessed" but 2005 and the wisdom that comes with age :cool: have made me more rational in this regard. At least I think so. :D:

Go Sox.

"Cubsessed" - I will now use that word because it says it all.:smile:

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 04:29 PM
We are getting some national recognition, my new Walter Drake catalogue came yesterday and lo and behold on page 86 there's a kid in one of the ads wearing a Sox hat.

What is Walter Drake? Sounds like a member of the British admiralty.

viagracat
06-22-2008, 04:33 PM
Back in the 50s and 60s Chicago was a Sox town as they had 17 straight winning seasons while the Cubs floundered in the 2nd division. I dont know if that happened again that it would turn Chicago back into a Sox town again, not when the media fawns over the Cubs like they do, and they play in Wrigley.
As a previous poster stated, Sox management has made huge blunders down through the years starting in the late 60s when the Sox left WGN for WFLD-32 so they could televise all their games. Problem was very few people had TVs with UHF. To me that was the biggest blunder of them all along with the Sportsvision fiasco in the early 80s that made Harry Caray switch to the northside.
The Sox right now probably have a fan base of about 40% of the metro area which is still larger than most teams in MLB. We are drawing about 28,000 a game with horrible weather so things could be worse.
This franchise has to stop obsessing with the Cubs and stop making dumb statements in the media and go about the business of winning games. We have a pretty good decade going as far as winning games except for 07.Winning is the best marketing tool of them all.

Totally agree. Great post.

I can remember when the Cubs couldn't draw flies, but in those days Wrigley was just another old ballpark and Lake View wasn't such a hot neighborhood. Things started to change in the late 1960s when the Sox started to flounder and the Cubs suddenly sprouted muscles, culminating not only in the infamous 1969 season for the Cubs but the abysmal 1970 season for the Sox that had all the rumors about the Sox leaving town for good.

And we all know hat happened after that in terms of demographics, marketing etc; subjects that have been beaten to death around here.

It's been a pro-Cub town ever since, although I believe, as the great Jerome Holtzman once stated, that in terms of true, loyal die-hards, it's about 50/50.

LITTLE NELL
06-22-2008, 04:35 PM
What is Walter Drake? Sounds like a member of the British admiralty.
They sell a bunch of home product stuff, like address labels, shelves etc.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 04:38 PM
Viagracat - I know what you mean about the demeaning part.

I have an acquaintance (not a friend mind you) who is totally Cubsessed. A group of us were at a bar in the offseason and he makes the statement that NOBODY at Wrigley Field is watching the game when it's going on. At first some of the Cubs fans were pretty much blowing him off, but he just kept on rattling about how nobody (with no exception) watched the game as it was being played (and he was serious). Finally after they'd had about enough of his lunacy, they look at me and say, "You're a White Sox fan - do you agree with this?"

I looked at the idiot and asked him if he ever heard or watched a Cubs game at Wrigley Field and he nodded yes furtively. I then asked him if he ever saw a Cubs player hit a home run. He said "Of course." Then I posed him the following question, "If nobody is watching the game, what is the reason 35,000 people all decided to simultaneously stand up and start screaming?"

I hated to make the guy look like an idiot (even though he is a supreme idiot) but enough is enough with this Cubsession.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 04:40 PM
They sell a bunch of home product stuff, like address labels, shelves etc.

Got it. I leave those purchases to the "administrative genius" in my household. She goes by the name of Mrs. KingXerxes.:smile:

LITTLE NELL
06-22-2008, 04:41 PM
Totally agree. Great post.

I can remember when the Cubs couldn't draw flies, but in those days Wrigley was just another old ballpark and Lake View wasn't such a hot neighborhood. Things started to change in the late 1960s when the Sox started to flounder and the Cubs suddenly sprouted muscles, culminating not only in the infamous 1969 season for the Cubs but the abysmal 1970 season for the Sox that had all the rumors about the Sox leaving town for good.

And we all know hat happened after that in terms of demographics, marketing etc; subjects that have been beaten to death around here.

It's been a pro-Cub town ever since, although I believe, as the great Jerome Holtzman once stated, that in terms of true, loyal die-hards, it's about 50/50.
I concur except attendance if you add up the years from 72 to 94 was about equal. The big change came after the 94 strike and the White Flag trade.

KingXerxes
06-22-2008, 04:44 PM
I concur except attendance if you add up the years from 72 to 94 was about equal. The big change came after the 94 strike and the White Flag trade.

I think the biggest change was due to the addition of lights at Wrigley Field. They used to have an awful lot of day games with 12,000 in attendance. Those are now night-time packed houses.

viagracat
06-22-2008, 04:48 PM
Viagracat - I know what you mean about the demeaning part.

I have an acquaintance (not a friend mind you) who is totally Cubsessed. A group of us were at a bar in the offseason and he makes the statement that NOBODY at Wrigley Field is watching the game when it's going on. At first some of the Cubs fans were pretty much blowing him off, but he just kept on rattling about how nobody (with no exception) watched the game as it was being played (and he was serious). Finally after they'd had about enough of his lunacy, they look at me and say, "You're a White Sox fan - do you agree with this?"

I looked at the idiot and asked him if he ever heard or watched a Cubs game at Wrigley Field and he nodded yes furtively. I then asked him if he ever saw a Cubs player hit a home run. He said "Of course." Then I posed him the following question, "If nobody is watching the game, what is the reason 35,000 people all decided to simultaneously stand up and start screaming?"

I hated to make the guy look like an idiot (even though he is a supreme idiot) but enough is enough with this Cubsession.

Yeah, that's just dumb. He probably said "Sox rule, Cubs drool" or something intelligent like that as well.

Not all Cub fans are 22-year-old drunken lightweights, just as not all Sox fans are thugs or imbeciles. I have absolutely no use for anyone who tries to keep those kind of inane stereotypes alive.

But then again, maybe I'm just getting old...

viagracat
06-22-2008, 04:52 PM
I concur except attendance if you add up the years from 72 to 94 was about equal. The big change came after the 94 strike and the White Flag trade.

That may be so, but the pro-Cub bias of the media was much more apparent then, especially after 1984. But in the interest of full disclosure, I lived in the northwest suburbs then, which has always been solidly pro-Cub, so maybe my perspective is altered.

SoxandtheCityTee
06-22-2008, 05:21 PM
"Cubsessed" - I will now use that word because it says it all.:smile:

I realize that you were away from the site for a while and can't be expected to read the four bajillion posts that contain the word Flubsessed but I'm begging you, please let's don't go down that road again.

carolynnm31
06-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Hey Cuck The Fubs dont feel so bad.. I too live in Norridge and have to deal with the idiocy of the scrub fans around here.. In 06' when it was clear we were not going to make the playoffs, I was walking down the street with my pierzynski jersey when some cub fans drive by and tell me to take my jersey off because we suck now, I just told them it must suck to have a bad century. Anyways, im relaxed but we have to get after it tonight. Go SOX!!


I catch more crap when I wear my pierzynski jersey and shirts than say if I wear Buerhle or Jenks. I'm so tired of hearing about attendance and the whole Barrett thing already. If we dont win tonight Im going to dread going to work tomorrow with all the cubs fans:(:

southside rocks
06-22-2008, 05:49 PM
Well, I've got a proposal for anyone who finds they are really bothered by these games or the outcomes of them.

Turn off the sports networks on radio and TV in your home. Drive to a local pet-supply store and buy 40 pounds of dog food. Take it to the nearest shelter or humane society and give it as a donation, and tell the staff there that you will be happy to do this as often as you can afford, because you know how many people are struggling to keep their pets in these hard economic times and are relying on the shelters for pet food and veterinary care.
http://www.southtownstar.com/news/1007366,061608petfood.article

Accept the heartfelt thanks of the shelter staff and return to your home, realizing that after all, a couple of baseball games are really not that important.

Worked for me.

SoxGirl4Life
06-22-2008, 05:52 PM
I catch more crap when I wear my pierzynski jersey and shirts than say if I wear Buerhle or Jenks. I'm so tired of hearing about attendance and the whole Barrett thing already. If we dont win tonight Im going to dread going to work tomorrow with all the cubs fans:(:


Hang tough. If you can get away with it, pass it off like you didn't know they were playing this weekend. It is only June, afterall. And the Barrett thing just proved that he was a wimpy coward for sucker punching AJ. In my book, the AJ-Barrett fight was a win for the Sox-exposed the Cubs (or that year's version of them) as insignificant on the field.

SoxGirl4Life
06-22-2008, 05:53 PM
Well, I've got a proposal for anyone who finds they are really bothered by these games or the outcomes of them.

Turn off the sports networks on radio and TV in your home. Drive to a local pet-supply store and buy 40 pounds of dog food. Take it to the nearest shelter or humane society and give it as a donation, and tell the staff there that you will be happy to do this as often as you can afford, because you know how many people are struggling to keep their pets in these hard economic times and are relying on the shelters for pet food and veterinary care.
http://www.southtownstar.com/news/1007366,061608petfood.article

Accept the heartfelt thanks of the shelter staff and return to your home, realizing that after all, a couple of baseball games are really not that important.

Worked for me.

Nice idea :smile:. I watched the Animal Channel instead of the news last night. Fat dogs in England was such a better topic for me .. lol