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ChiWavDave
06-09-2008, 06:24 PM
Hi Guys,

First off, I'm the exact opposite of a dark cloud, whatever that would be. So this is not any attempt to rain (although it would be nice if it would stop raining for a while) on the Sox's phenominal run. I think this club has been outstanding from the get go this year. And unlike some, I thought many of their offseason moves were well done.

Ok, now that I got my qualifier out of the way. I am concerned with Mr. Jenks. Its clear that he has learned how to "pitch" and not just "throw" over the last couple of years. And obviously closing is far more mental than physical and he has mastered that element as well, but there is something not quite right with him.

His stuff is not electric anymore, he barely touches 94ish on the gun, the curve doesn't snap, it tends to roll up there. And I've read a couple of quotes where he's said, he's learning to pitch to contact more and his "stuff" will be there when he needs it. Today would have been a day to peel off 1 99mph fastball, just to crush the twinkies spirit, but he kept grooving 92/93 up there.

He looks fit, maybe those few xtra pounds are what gave him his oomph. But as we head into the 2nd half of the year, I would say that he is this one thing that nags at me in the back of my mind. Am I wrong? Thoughts?

Dave

BadBobbyJenks
06-09-2008, 06:29 PM
15/18 with an era of 2.05.

Daver
06-09-2008, 06:30 PM
Hi Guys,

First off, I'm the exact opposite of a dark cloud, whatever that would be. So this is not any attempt to rain (although it would be nice if it would stop raining for a while) on the Sox's phenominal run. I think this club has been outstanding from the get go this year. And unlike some, I thought many of their offseason moves were well done.

Ok, now that I got my qualifier out of the way. I am concerned with Mr. Jenks. Its clear that he has learned how to "pitch" and not just "throw" over the last couple of years. And obviously closing is far more mental than physical and he has mastered that element as well, but there is something not quite right with him.

His stuff is not electric anymore, he barely touches 94ish on the gun, the curve doesn't snap, it tends to roll up there. And I've read a couple of quotes where he's said, he's learning to pitch to contact more and his "stuff" will be there when he needs it. Today would have been a day to peel off 1 99mph fastball, just to crush the twinkies spirit, but he kept grooving 92/93 up there.

He looks fit, maybe those few xtra pounds are what gave him his oomph. But as we head into the 2nd half of the year, I would say that he is this one thing that nags at me in the back of my mind. Am I wrong? Thoughts?

Dave

Basing a pitcher solely on the radar gun is not a very bright thing to do.

BadBobbyJenks
06-09-2008, 06:30 PM
8 saves in a row before the Kansas City game as well.

hi im skot
06-09-2008, 06:30 PM
It's a reasonable concern, but I wouldn't stress out a whole lot. He still hasn't had a ton of work this season.

I love seeing him get out of the jam today...it's gotta do wonders for his confidence.

Metalthrasher442
06-09-2008, 06:31 PM
I'd rather have him not as dominant now. And save it all for the post season =]

ChiWavDave
06-09-2008, 06:31 PM
15/18 with an era of 2.05.

No doubt, I am not questioning his productivity at all, I agree his has been outstanding, I just am asking if anybody sees, like me, that his "stuff" seems to be not at his 05-07 levels.

ChiWavDave
06-09-2008, 06:33 PM
Basing a pitcher solely on the radar gun is not a very bright thing to do.

I'm not as concerned with the gun, but hey thanks for the insult. He just looks to me, that his stuff doesnt snap, crackle and pop like it did previously. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats my impression.

LoveYourSuit
06-09-2008, 06:34 PM
15/18 with an era of 2.05.


Guys, numbers are very solid, no question.

I too am I bit concerned with the over-powering stuff lacking a bit. And he is perhaps the most fresh arm we have in the pen, you would figure fresh arm would equal to over powering stuff.

Daver
06-09-2008, 06:35 PM
I'm not as concerned with the gun, but hey thanks for the insult. He just looks to me, that his stuff doesnt snap, crackle and pop like it did previously. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats my impression.

That is the direct result of pitching as opposed to throwing, you sacrifice some velocity to gain the mechanics that allow you to pitch for a longer career. Billy Koch was a thrower, where is he now?

ChiWavDave
06-09-2008, 06:39 PM
That is the direct result of pitching as opposed to throwing, you sacrifice some velocity to gain the mechanics that allow you to pitch for a longer career. Billy Koch was a thrower, where is he now?

See thats the feedback I'm looking for. So he's has made mechanical changes to his delivery.

To take stress off his arm?
To throw more strikes?

Details?

As I said before, closing is far more mental than physical, and I think we know where Billy Koch was deficient.

Boondock Saint
06-09-2008, 06:43 PM
Back when Bobby was throwing 99mph, he was a good closer with a great fastball. Now that he's throwing 94mph, he's an elite closer with an above average fastball. And I think his curve is better than its ever been. His breaking balls have more movement, which makes his fastball more effective. He may not be hitting 99, but he's still blowing guys away.

Daver
06-09-2008, 06:45 PM
See thats the feedback I'm looking for. So he's has made mechanical changes to his delivery.

To take stress off his arm?
To throw more strikes?

Details?

As I said before, closing is far more mental than physical, and I think we know where Billy Koch was deficient.


Billy Koch still has the mental part, his arm was toast.

Jenks has changed his arm angle, his release point, and even his slot, all to take stress off his shoulder and elbow, these are changes that had to be made to maximize his career potential. The White Sox do one thing fairly well, they keep their pitchers healthy for the most part, instruction is one of the tools that helps accomplish that.

knocko94
06-09-2008, 06:48 PM
I will say that he's developed a plethora of offspeed stuff (Curve, Slider, changeup) and it appears he cuts and sinks his fastball more. I still wish he threw 99, but I've seen him get it up there at 96 this year, and he's been plenty effective.

He struggles when 2-3 batters in a row jump on his first pitch, usually a fastball trying to grab a strike. I'd like to see him throw a couple more first pitch breaking balls.

hi im skot
06-09-2008, 06:49 PM
I will say that he's developed a plethora of offspeed stuff (Curve, Slider, changeup) and it appears he cuts and sinks his fastball more. I still wish he threw 99, but I've seen him get it up there at 96 this year, and he's been plenty effective.

He struggles when 2-3 batters in a row jump on his first pitch, usually a fastball trying to grab a strike. I'd like to see him throw a couple more first bitch breaking balls.


:lol:

WhiteSox5187
06-09-2008, 06:49 PM
I noticed earlier in the year though when he was being brought out again I thought "Man, they've used him a lot this series" (and I forget who it was against) he was gunning it up there around 95-96...he hasn't had to work in awhile, so I think it might be one those things where as the year goes on and the more outtings he has he throws harder. He claims he can still rear back there and let it loose, but as long as he's getting guys out I don't care how hard he throws. Shingo was getting the job done in '04 while topping out at 80. Bobby knows how to get guys out and that's all that matters.

knocko94
06-09-2008, 06:50 PM
:lol:

oh snap:D:

fquaye149
06-09-2008, 06:53 PM
Basing a pitcher solely on the radar gun is not a very bright thing to do.

I saw quite a few different aspects of Jenks game being discussed in the original post, not just the radar gun.

fquaye149
06-09-2008, 06:54 PM
Billy Koch still has the mental part, his arm was toast.

Jenks has changed his arm angle, his release point, and even his slot, all to take stress off his shoulder and elbow, these are changes that had to be made to maximize his career potential. The White Sox do one thing fairly well, they keep their pitchers healthy for the most part, instruction is one of the tools that helps accomplish that.


Billy Koch's decline coincided directly with his loss of velocity.

Now, correlation does not imply causality, but you should probably rethink the example of Billy Koch in arguing why velocity doesn't matter when evaluating pitching.

ChiWavDave
06-09-2008, 06:54 PM
Back when Bobby was throwing 99mph, he was a good closer with a great fastball. Now that he's throwing 94mph, he's an elite closer with an above average fastball. And I think his curve is better than its ever been. His breaking balls have more movement, which makes his fastball more effective. He may not be hitting 99, but he's still blowing guys away.

See I guess it's really the curve ball that I'm disagreeing on, since that's been his out pitch, to me it doesn't snap like it did in previous years. And while you can say he has been super productive, you can't say he's blowing anybody away, his K/9 ratio has dropped dramatically this year. Its 5.7 vs

7.7 last year
10.3 in 06
11.7 in 05

so I guess thats my concern...

Zisk77
06-09-2008, 06:57 PM
Well. he is no David Weathers...

WhiteSox5187
06-09-2008, 06:58 PM
See I guess it's really the curve ball that I'm disagreeing on, since that's been his out pitch, to me it doesn't snap like it did in previous years. And while you can say he has been super productive, you can't say he's blowing anybody away, his K/9 ratio has dropped dramatically this year. Its 5.7 vs

7.7 last year
10.3 in 06
11.7 in 05

so I guess thats my concern...

I think that also might relate to hitters having seen him more this time around than in '05 and early '06. He's also added a good slider and change up to his repertoire. Plus it's awfully early to be looking at his K/9 ratio, that could go up dramatically by the end of the year.

Daver
06-09-2008, 06:59 PM
Billy Koch's decline coincided directly with his loss of velocity.

Now, correlation does not imply causality, but you should probably rethink the example of Billy Koch in arguing why velocity doesn't matter when evaluating pitching.


Billy Koch wasn't a pitcher, he was a thrower, he didn't know how to pitch.

LoveYourSuit
06-09-2008, 07:01 PM
See I guess it's really the curve ball that I'm disagreeing on, since that's been his out pitch, to me it doesn't snap like it did in previous years. And while you can say he has been super productive, you can't say he's blowing anybody away, his K/9 ratio has dropped dramatically this year. Its 5.7 vs

7.7 last year
10.3 in 06
11.7 in 05

so I guess thats my concern...

I think the make up of a great closer is one who can strike out a good amount of people and not allowing them to put the ball in play that much. This because most teams with a 1-2 run lead go to this awful "prevent defense" to cut away doubles. I hate that. This allows teams like the Twins to bloop you to death.

JB98
06-09-2008, 07:14 PM
I'm not concerned about the radar gun. Bobby's fastball is not his problem. He's had a rough time of late because his breaking ball hasn't been working as well as it normally does. Fortunately, he's been able to wiggle out of a couple jams, one today and one the last game in Cleveland.

Yes, Jenks is going through a period right now where he is not throwing the ball well. He hasn't gotten a lot of work lately. I'm sure he'll find his groove at some point, hopefully for the second-half pennant drive.

RockyMtnSoxFan
06-09-2008, 07:16 PM
See I guess it's really the curve ball that I'm disagreeing on, since that's been his out pitch, to me it doesn't snap like it did in previous years. And while you can say he has been super productive, you can't say he's blowing anybody away, his K/9 ratio has dropped dramatically this year. Its 5.7 vs

7.7 last year
10.3 in 06
11.7 in 05

so I guess thats my concern...

Yeah, I've kind of wondered about this too. A drop in K/9 often means that something has changed about the way a guy pitches, and other numbers (ERA, OBPA, etc) are going to go up, too. However, in Bobby's case there is another number that is interesting: his ground ball to fly ball ration is 3.06, which is by far the highest of any of the elite closers. Next closest is Joe Nathan at 1.96. To me, that says that Bobby really is pitching to contact more now, and his curve must be fairly successful because opposing hitters are pounding it into the ground.

Hopefully Bobby will find some sort of balance. I think that if he continues to rely on off-speed stuff for outs, teams will figure it out. But, based on what I've seen from Jenks so far, I think he can make that readjustment and continue to be successful. Remember, he's not just a one-year wonder; he's proven himself as one of the best closers for several years now.

Eddo144
06-09-2008, 07:25 PM
I think the biggest difference between Bobby Jenks '05 and Bobby Jenks '08 is that in '05 he had to hit 99 on the radar gun to get guys out. Now, he has developed three or four "out" pitches.

As for his curveball not "snapping" as much as it used to, I think that's a result of off-speed pitches varying game-by-game. How many times have you seen Contreras, for example, throw an unhittable forkball consistently one game, then leave it up consistently the next game? I've seen Jenks throw some nasty curveballs this year, and also some rather pedestrian ones.

On the whole, his decline in K/9 concerns me, but as long as he's getting guys out, that's a secondary concern. There is a danger in pitching to contact, as seen in the blown save against the Royals, and more strikeouts can remedy that.

fquaye149
06-09-2008, 07:33 PM
Billy Koch wasn't a pitcher, he was a thrower, he didn't know how to pitch.

Yes, I would agree.

TheOldRoman
06-09-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm not concerned about the radar gun. Bobby's fastball is not his problem. He's had a rough time of late because his breaking ball hasn't been working as well as it normally does. Fortunately, he's been able to wiggle out of a couple jams, one today and one the last game in Cleveland.

Yes, Jenks is going through a period right now where he is not throwing the ball well. He hasn't gotten a lot of work lately. I'm sure he'll find his groove at some point, hopefully for the second-half pennant drive.So, what you are saying is that you wouldn't rather have Jeremy Accardo?

JB98
06-09-2008, 07:39 PM
So, what you are saying is that you wouldn't rather have Jeremy Accardo?

Umm, no. I think Jenks is among the best in the league. He is just going through a little period right now where he is not sharp.

A struggling Bobby is still better than quite a few pitchers around the league.

Noneck
06-09-2008, 07:40 PM
Jenks has changed his arm angle, his release point, and even his slot, all to take stress off his shoulder and elbow, these are changes that had to be made to maximize his career potential.
Did this happen after the 05 season? Is this an ongoing process and is it possible to regain the velocity after he gets accustomed to these adjustments?

Daver
06-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Did this happen after the 05 season? Is this an ongoing process and is it possible to regain the velocity after he gets accustomed to these adjustments?

He'll never regain all of it, when you are no longer throwing dead over the top as he was you are going to suffer a velocity loss.

TheOldRoman
06-09-2008, 07:41 PM
I agree that Bobby had to change mechanics to prolong his career. It doesn't matter how hard he throws, as long as he gets outs. If he is an elite closer throwing 94-96, that is fine. He hasn't been on of late, but he went through a similar streak last year.

When Bobby thew harder, he always did worse pitching a second consecutive day. When he had to pitch three days in a row, he was way off. I remember a handful of saves he blew in 06 because we had to use him, and he had pitched the last two games. I think at least two were against the Orioles. I would much rather have Bobby throwing 95 and ready to go 3 days in a row than 99 and being a liability that third game.

TheOldRoman
06-09-2008, 07:42 PM
Umm, no. I think Jenks is among the best in the league. He is just going through a little period right now where he is not sharp.

A struggling Bobby is still better than quite a few pitchers around the league.Right, but he is no Kevin Gregg.

btrain929
06-09-2008, 07:50 PM
I will say that he's developed a plethora of offspeed stuff (Curve, Slider, changeup) and it appears he cuts and sinks his fastball more. I still wish he threw 99, but I've seen him get it up there at 96 this year, and he's been plenty effective.

He struggles when 2-3 batters in a row jump on his first pitch, usually a fastball trying to grab a strike. I'd like to see him throw a couple more first pitch breaking balls.

This is exactly what I came in here to post. Apparently teams know that he throws first pitch fastballs down the middle. Look back on the past few comebacks/jams, and that's what those hitters have down. Swing at first pitch for singles and doubles.

Now I'm glad that he has more pitches (curve, slider, changeup, cutters, etc). If he mixes those in more often, that can be the difference between a liner through the rightside, and a groundball to PK, or a solid hit over the 3b and a groundball back to the pitcher or SS. Even if he snaps off that wicked curve on first pitch, that's a hell of a way to set up the at-bat, leaving the hitter clueless.

Now I don't know if you blame that on Bobby, AJ, or Coop calling the pitches. But if this simple gameplan is altered/adjusted, I think it would result in a lot more 1-2-3 innings and a lot of stress taken off of Bobby's shoulders.

turners56
06-09-2008, 07:50 PM
Bobby hasn't had the same velocity since 2005 for a couple of years now. But in that time, he's had the curve. Lately however, on a few occasions, the curve hasn't come to him whatsoever. In all the saves he's blown this year, the lack of break on his curve has hurt him, especially the first one in Baltimore. When you don't have your dominant breaking pitch, you need to utilize the go-to pitch of baseball, which for most pitchers, is the fastball. Although Bobby still brings it around 93-94, I don't think that's enough to over-power hitters enough to make them swing and miss every single time. When Bobby had that 99 MPH fastball, he can not have anything else and still strikeout the side (see Game 1 2005 WS). I'm really not that concerned about his velocity, but rather his inability to cap off that nasty breaking ball of his more consistently.

Daver
06-09-2008, 07:52 PM
Now I don't know if you blame that on Bobby, AJ, or Coop calling the pitches. But if this simple gameplan is altered/adjusted, I think it would result in a lot more 1-2-3 innings and a lot of stress taken off of Bobby's shoulders.

Don Cooper doesn't call pitches, AJ does.

Lillian
06-09-2008, 07:53 PM
Anyone watching Bobby pitch would be hard pressed to dispute what ChiWaveDave stated in this thread. Whether or not he can regain his velocity, and movement is arguable, but the fact that he is not dominating, as he did prior to this year, is pretty obvious.
It shouldn't be due to his work load, as he really hasn't compiled that many innings, especially this last week.

Daver
06-09-2008, 07:56 PM
Anyone watching Bobby pitch would be hard pressed to dispute what ChiWaveDave stated in this thread. Whether or not he can regain his velocity, and movement is arguable, but the fact that he is not dominating, as he did prior to this year, is pretty obvious.
It shouldn't be due to his work load, as he really hasn't compiled that many innings, especially this last week.

Learning how to pitch as opposed to throw is not a magical process that happens overnight, or over one season, it takes as long as it takes.

ChiWavDave
06-09-2008, 09:12 PM
Great stuff guys and gals as usual, what I was interested in reading... I hope that Bobby can keep things heading in the right direction and find that extra gear (not just velocity) when the time comes. But when you compare him in this period today, his stuff seems pretty pedestrian to me. But as I said earlier closing is all mental, and hes got that part down, I don't want to see anybody else in that role, I just want to see Arod, or Papi or Mags walking back to the dugout in the ninth with that "what the **** was that" look on their face come Sept and dare I say October.

dg

cws05champ
06-09-2008, 09:13 PM
Anyone watching Bobby pitch would be hard pressed to dispute what ChiWaveDave stated in this thread. Whether or not he can regain his velocity, and movement is arguable, but the fact that he is not dominating, as he did prior to this year, is pretty obvious.
It shouldn't be due to his work load, as he really hasn't compiled that many innings, especially this last week.

I agree, he has been hittable lately and maybe it's just a bad stretch and he'll get sharper as time rolls on. That being said, he is mostly getting the job done so I can't complain too much.

If he can get his change over(which can be wicked) he should start to feature that early in the count as well so it will make his 94 mph heat look faster.

HomeFish
06-09-2008, 10:14 PM
Who closes if Bobby continues to throw like a wash-up? In '05 we were twice able to magically pull new closers out of a hat. What happens this year? We'd have to pull a trade.

Gavin
06-09-2008, 10:19 PM
Who closes if Bobby continues to throw like a wash-up? In '05 we were twice able to magically pull new closers out of a hat. What happens this year? We'd have to pull a trade.

Linebrink? Dotel? Thornton? It's not like this bullpen isn't full of lights-out guys... Still, I don't think we have a problem on our hands yet.

sullythered
06-09-2008, 10:50 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I think Bobby's fastball is actually better than when he came up. He locates it more accurately, and more importantly it actually moves now. It's more like a cut fastball, and he throws a pseudo-slider in the low 90's to go with it. Take a look at his WHIP from last season, in which he was throwing the same stuff he's throwing now.

sullythered
06-09-2008, 10:51 PM
Who closes if Bobby continues to throw like a wash-up? In '05 we were twice able to magically pull new closers out of a hat. What happens this year? We'd have to pull a trade.
:rolleyes:

WhiteSox5187
06-09-2008, 11:10 PM
I've been at most of the games this home stand so I haven't seen Bobby's stuff but it seems to me that if he is still getting guys out, he's doing something right. He's blown how many saves in his last ten chances? One? And that was against KC where I believe two hits that fell were little bloops, no? Although maybe it's a good thing we question Bobby's stuff because last year we were freaking out at how his velocity was down and he went on to retire forty six in a row.

HomeFish
06-09-2008, 11:11 PM
I've been at most of the games this home stand so I haven't seen Bobby's stuff but it seems to me that if he is still getting guys out, he's doing something right. He's blown how many saves in his last ten chances? One? And that was against KC where I believe two hits that fell were little bloops, no? Although maybe it's a good thing we question Bobby's stuff because last year we were freaking out at how his velocity was down and he went on to retire forty six in a row.

He had first and third with nobody out today. That's hardly "getting guys out".

gobears1987
06-09-2008, 11:17 PM
He had first and third with nobody out today. That's hardly "getting guys out".How many runs did he give up? I'm sorry, but you are just hopeless here.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-09-2008, 11:38 PM
How many runs did he give up? I'm sorry, but you are just hopeless here.

to be fair, the idea that jenks can just reach back and blow guys away like he used to is complete bs. the winning run was up at the plate with no outs, and every guy in the 9th put the ball in play today.

for the record - i think jenks is a more complete closer right now than he was when he first came up

jabrch
06-09-2008, 11:52 PM
How many runs did he give up? I'm sorry, but you are just hopeless here.

I'm surprised fish still nibble on this hook. It's a plastic lure guys - regardless of how much it wiggles and shines.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2008, 12:09 AM
How many runs did he give up? I'm sorry, but you are just hopeless here.


i think it was more about luck than him being good today.

just look at the look on his face after that ninth, he will be the first to say he escaped one there.

The double play ball should have scored Gomez on contact as he should know that any team will trade the double play to give up the run... for some odd reason he stayed at 3B and Bobby looking him back had nothing to do with it (you force the pitcher to get you out at home or get in a pickle to avoid the double play right there).

The ball Morneu hit was ticketed to CF if not for Cabrera almost playing him right up the middle....very smart positioning there by OC. The ball was ripped by Morneu if you look at the replay.

HomeFish
06-10-2008, 12:20 AM
Billy Koch in 2004 also had a stretch where he got a bunch of saves in innings where he still gave up multiple baserunners. Washed up closers can still get lucky, even many times in a row. Doesn't mean that they are dependable.

JB98
06-10-2008, 12:26 AM
Billy Koch in 2004 also had a stretch where he got a bunch of saves in innings where he still gave up multiple baserunners. Washed up closers can still get lucky, even many times in a row. Doesn't mean that they are dependable.

I'm failing to see how a comparison between Koch and Jenks is relevant.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2008, 12:31 AM
Billy Koch in 2004 also had a stretch where he got a bunch of saves in innings where he still gave up multiple baserunners. Washed up closers can still get lucky, even many times in a row. Doesn't mean that they are dependable.

Comparing Jenks to Koch right is completely talking crazy. Yes Jenks is very hittable right now but not to the extreme of Koch were every ball was a line shot with steam.

...
06-10-2008, 12:31 AM
I'm failing to see how a comparison between Koch and Jenks is relevant.

I fail to see how anything this guy says is worthy of a response. How cool would it be if everyone completely ignored him? I'm in...

HomeFish
06-10-2008, 12:39 AM
Where did I compare Jenks to Koch?

slavko
06-10-2008, 01:33 AM
i think it was more about luck than him being good today.

just look at the look on his face after that ninth, he will be the first to say he escaped one there.

The double play ball should have scored Gomez on contact as he should know that any team will trade the double play to give up the run... for some odd reason he stayed at 3B and Bobby looking him back had nothing to do with it (you force the pitcher to get you out at home or get in a pickle to avoid the double play right there).

The ball Morneu hit was ticketed to CF if not for Cabrera almost playing him right up the middle....very smart positioning there by OC. The ball was ripped by Morneu if you look at the replay.

Your eyeballs and my eyeballs saw the same thing. Four out of four hitters made good contact. Gomez knew his run was meaningless but still should have run into the pickle. What harm could it do? Jenks should not have bothered with the look-back at Gomez' meaningless run. It almost cost him the double play, but Alexei's gun and Swisher's stretch saved him. (Note:PK doesn't stretch)

Jenks's stuff is not the '05 stuff, only a biased observer could deny it. Still, he is very hard to hit an HR off. He always had control, never walked a lot of people like so many Sox closers have. He should forget the slider, which gets hit too frequently. His arm angle has changed, probably by design, which accounts for the disappearance of the 12-6 curve. If need be, other guys on this staff could close. Add Masset to the ones listed above. Bobby is still an above average closer. We're a bunch of nit-picking Sox fans and proud of it!

Gerry
06-10-2008, 01:48 AM
Yeah he doesn't have the same stuff he has in 05' and he is a better pitcher because of it. I would rather have this Jenks than the 05' Jenks. Throwing basically just the 98-99 mph fastball and snap dragon curveball was only going to work for so long, luckily it was exactly long enough to win the World Series. Batters and coaches catch on and if Jenks were still doing that, he would probably getting hit a lot more now. Like it was said before, he is a pitcher now, a much more complete one. I have to borrow a quote from Hawk, I know it's Hawk but it's true nonetheless: "I'd rather face a guy throwing a straight 98 or 99 than a guy who can locate a good 94 moving fastball". And that's true around baseball, and it holds true to Jenks. He's better than he was in 05'.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2008, 02:17 AM
Yeah he doesn't have the same stuff he has in 05' and he is a better pitcher because of it. I would rather have this Jenks than the 05' Jenks. Throwing basically just the 98-99 mph fastball and snap dragon curveball was only going to work for so long, luckily it was exactly long enough to win the World Series. Batters and coaches catch on and if Jenks were still doing that, he would probably getting hit a lot more now. Like it was said before, he is a pitcher now, a much more complete one. I have to borrow a quote from Hawk, I know it's Hawk but it's true nonetheless: "I'd rather face a guy throwing a straight 98 or 99 than a guy who can locate a good 94 moving fastball". And that's true around baseball, and it holds true to Jenks. He's better than he was in 05'.


Agree 100% that he is a much better "pitcher" than he was back then. But there are certain times were "pitching" is not getting you outs and you need to be able to flip that switch to your old "throwing mode" just to survive that outing and blow people away. I'm affraid that blow away arsenal is just no longer there as evidence of that huge drop off in K/9IPs.

Maybe he's been told by Coop that he had to get off that blow away stuff if he wanted to preserve his career unlike all these former closer who have all flamed out quickly.

JB98
06-10-2008, 02:28 AM
Your eyeballs and my eyeballs saw the same thing. Four out of four hitters made good contact. Gomez knew his run was meaningless but still should have run into the pickle. What harm could it do? Jenks should not have bothered with the look-back at Gomez' meaningless run. It almost cost him the double play, but Alexei's gun and Swisher's stretch saved him. (Note:PK doesn't stretch)

Jenks's stuff is not the '05 stuff, only a biased observer could deny it. Still, he is very hard to hit an HR off. He always had control, never walked a lot of people like so many Sox closers have. He should forget the slider, which gets hit too frequently. His arm angle has changed, probably by design, which accounts for the disappearance of the 12-6 curve. If need be, other guys on this staff could close. Add Masset to the ones listed above. Bobby is still an above average closer. We're a bunch of nit-picking Sox fans and proud of it!

Cabrera made the throw to retire Mauer at first in the ninth. And Casilla did not make good contact. That was just a little flipper over the infield.

Gerry
06-10-2008, 02:30 AM
Yeah there are sacrifices. He's already got a surgically repaired pitching arm, it was the right move and it was a good move. Because it would have ended badly either way:

A. The batters WILL catch on. A flat 99-100 mph fastball only gets you so far until the batters start catching up to it. Even with the snap dragon curve, it wouldn't work out, because that's set up with the dependence of Jenks being able to get that fastball by the batter for strikes. Once the batter knows high heat is coming and it ain't moving, forget it, grab some bench Bobby.

or

B. He will sooner or later blow out his already once repaired arm and risk ending his career.

Pretty simple really. Jenks has the mind set for the role, I'm not worried about him getting shaken by a few hits. Things like throwing more first pitch breaking balls can be changed in a very short amount of time, so I'm not worried about Jenks at all. Are we just worrying for worrying's sake?

Lillian
06-10-2008, 07:08 AM
Look at his K/9, K/BB, and Hits allowed. Right now he's the third or fourth best reliever on this staff. However, you do have to love his makeup.

TornLabrum
06-10-2008, 07:53 AM
Only at WSI could we have a thread like this during a 7-game winning streak. Sheesh!

russ99
06-10-2008, 09:00 AM
Agree 100% that he is a much better "pitcher" than he was back then. But there are certain times were "pitching" is not getting you outs and you need to be able to flip that switch to your old "throwing mode" just to survive that outing and blow people away. I'm affraid that blow away arsenal is just no longer there as evidence of that huge drop off in K/9IPs.

Maybe he's been told by Coop that he had to get off that blow away stuff if he wanted to preserve his career unlike all these former closer who have all flamed out quickly.

Actually, he can still get up to the high 90's on the gun, but the difference is he's having trouble getting the curve for strikes and hitters aren't biting.

The other problem is he's worked what, 2 games in the last 10 days? Not that I'm complaining, but he'd do better with more regular outings.

Iwritecode
06-10-2008, 09:54 AM
Where did I compare Jenks to Koch?

Oh I don't know. Maybe right here:

Who closes if Bobby continues to throw like a wash-up? In '05 we were twice able to magically pull new closers out of a hat. What happens this year? We'd have to pull a trade.

Billy Koch in 2004 also had a stretch where he got a bunch of saves in innings where he still gave up multiple baserunners. Washed up closers can still get lucky, even many times in a row. Doesn't mean that they are dependable.

fquaye149
06-10-2008, 09:55 AM
Where did I compare Jenks to Koch?

In the post where you compared Jenks to Koch, Jay

jabrch
06-10-2008, 09:57 AM
Only at WSI could we have a thread like this during a 7-game winning streak. Sheesh!


If people continue to feed the trolls, this stuff will keep happening.

ChiWavDave
06-10-2008, 10:11 AM
If people continue to feed the trolls, this stuff will keep happening.

I started the thread, cause I had a question for the WSI community about my perception of Bobby's "stuff". no more no less, I certainly don't think that under any circumstances I am a troll. I didn't question his makeup or his productivity. I just wondered why his "out" pitches in years past were getting hit this year. Is this not this forum for those type of discussions?

jabrch
06-10-2008, 10:20 AM
I started the thread, cause I had a question for the WSI community about my perception of Bobby's "stuff". no more no less, I certainly don't think that under any circumstances I am a troll. I didn't question his makeup or his productivity. I just wondered why his "out" pitches in years past were getting hit this year. Is this not this forum for those type of discussions?

Was not referring to you as a troll. Sorry - hope you didn't take it that way. The thread itself is fine - it's some of the glorious crap that it contains that lacks value.

ChiWavDave
06-10-2008, 10:31 AM
Was not referring to you as a troll. Sorry - hope you didn't take it that way. The thread itself is fine - it's some of the glorious crap that it contains that lacks value.

Makes sense.... thanks

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2008, 12:51 PM
If people continue to feed the trolls, this stuff will keep happening.


Wow, did not know a valid concern by a few fans would be considered trolling.

fquaye149
06-10-2008, 01:04 PM
Wow, did not know a valid concern by a few fans would be considered trolling.

people who don't agree with jabrch are either bad fans or trolls

Harry Chappas
06-10-2008, 01:04 PM
If people continue to feed the trolls, this stuff will keep happening.

This is ridiculous. The OP wasn't trolling - he was asking a valid question. Some people took the time to thoughtfully respond and offer opinions and this turned into a fairly interesting thread. But not before a few guys had to insult him and put words in his mouth.

Personally, I too have wondered whether Jenks loss in velocity is the result of a change in mechanics, or, just a dead-arm period that closers go through every now and then.

jabrch
06-10-2008, 01:08 PM
This is ridiculous. The OP wasn't trolling - he was asking a valid question. Some people took the time to thoughtfully respond and offer opinions and this turned into a fairly interesting thread. But not before a few guys had to insult him and put words in his mouth.

Personally, I too have wondered whether Jenks loss in velocity is the result of a change in mechanics, or, just a dead-arm period that closers go through every now and then.

And I very clearly responded to the OP that I wasn't calling him a troll.

See where I said, "Was not referring to you as a troll. Sorry - hope you didn't take it that way. " that was my way of making it clear that I wasn't refering to him as a troll.

I've got a simple thought on trolling. If you don't think you are trolling, then you probably are not. But those people who come out making posts that are complete and total mularkey that are designed to do nothing other than draw a fight "aka trolling" know exactly what they are doing.

PM me if you'd like more details - but by no means is a disucssion about Jenks velocity trolling in isolation.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2008, 02:48 PM
And I very clearly responded to the OP that I wasn't calling him a troll.

See where I said, "Was not referring to you as a troll. Sorry - hope you didn't take it that way. " that was my way of making it clear that I wasn't refering to him as a troll.

I've got a simple thought on trolling. If you don't think you are trolling, then you probably are not. But those people who come out making posts that are complete and total mularkey that are designed to do nothing other than draw a fight "aka trolling" know exactly what they are doing.

PM me if you'd like more details - but by no means is a disucssion about Jenks velocity trolling in isolation.


Understood.

But next time I would quote the person trolling rather than making a blanket statement on the thread, this leaves us all thinking that perhaps you are against the entire thread itself rather than one particular poster.


By the way, this is a very good thread.

Bobby has been very effective this season but the lack of dominance is what puts a bit of fear on some people's minds.

spiffie
06-10-2008, 03:04 PM
Its funny that certain posters label parts of this thread as trolling, when it seems this is the very essence of watching the game instead of just relying on stats and spreadsheets. Sure, the numbers say Jenks is doing great. But when you watch him pitch, there are question marks that pop up. In theory it is great if that 93 MPH pitch has a lot of movement on it and works as a cutter. But there have been a lot of times lately where instead of throwing the 99 MPH straight flat fastball, it has been a 93 MPH straight flat fastball.

It doesn't seem something to worry about right now, as Bobby is mostly getting the job done, but at some point the question of extensions or buying out free agent years will come up, possibly as soon as this off season. At that point the question of his long-term viability becomes much more important than the question of "did he blow a save yesterday?"

EndemicSox
06-10-2008, 03:08 PM
Closers, for the most part, don't seem to stick around very long. If Jenks is trying to ward off the inevitable injury by improving his mechanics, which in turn results in a slight loss of "stuff", so be it. He is still a damn fine pitcher...on the other hand, if he wants a monster contract come December, Kenny has a tough decision to make...

TornLabrum
06-10-2008, 03:27 PM
Its funny that certain posters label parts of this thread as trolling, when it seems this is the very essence of watching the game instead of just relying on stats and spreadsheets. Sure, the numbers say Jenks is doing great. But when you watch him pitch, there are question marks that pop up. In theory it is great if that 93 MPH pitch has a lot of movement on it and works as a cutter. But there have been a lot of times lately where instead of throwing the 99 MPH straight flat fastball, it has been a 93 MPH straight flat fastball.

It doesn't seem something to worry about right now, as Bobby is mostly getting the job done, but at some point the question of extensions or buying out free agent years will come up, possibly as soon as this off season. At that point the question of his long-term viability becomes much more important than the question of "did he blow a save yesterday?"

It's easy to label parts of the thread trolling when there are obvious trolls by people who are well known trollers.

spiffie
06-10-2008, 03:31 PM
It's easy to label parts of the thread trolling when there are obvious trolls by people who are well known trollers.
I guess to me trolling implies a desire to cause trouble, as opposed to simply being kind of insane and having a world view that sees everything through ****-colored glasses, like HomeFish does. Maybe I'm just too optimistic on these things.

LoveYourSuit
06-10-2008, 03:51 PM
I guess to me trolling implies a desire to cause trouble, as opposed to simply being kind of insane and having a world view that sees everything through ****-colored glasses, like HomeFish does. Maybe I'm just too optimistic on these things.


I don't think anyone posted anything on this thread which was an act of "trolling" or "causing trouble."

I have a feeling the trolling aspect was brought up just due to the fact that there are way too many sensitive people here that get all bent out of shape any time someone says anything 1/2 negative or Concern about the Sox or a Sox player. And this thread about Jenks is a valid concern IMO.

jabrch
06-10-2008, 04:13 PM
It's easy to label parts of the thread trolling when there are obvious trolls by people who are well known trollers.


If it looks like a duck...

FarWestChicago
06-10-2008, 08:01 PM
I guess to me trolling implies a desire to cause trouble, as opposed to simply being kind of insane and having a world view that sees everything through ****-colored glasses, like HomeFish does. Maybe I'm just too optimistic on these things.Wow, HomeFish has you hook, line and sinker. :nod:

FarWestChicago
06-10-2008, 08:03 PM
I don't think anyone posted anything on this thread which was an act of "trolling" or "causing trouble."Nice one! For a second I thought your were serious. :D:

...
06-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Oh I don't know. Maybe right here:

Ahhh you BLEW it!!!

Nellie_Fox
06-11-2008, 01:51 AM
Understood.

But next time I would quote the person trolling rather than making a blanket statement on the thread, this leaves us all thinking that perhaps you are against the entire thread itself rather than one particular poster.It was clear to me he was talking about HomeFish.

It's easy to label parts of the thread trolling when there are obvious trolls by people who are well known trollers.:thumbsup:

I don't think anyone posted anything on this thread which was an act of "trolling" or "causing trouble."That's because you haven't been around long enough to recognize a pattern of behavior.

jabrch
06-11-2008, 09:57 AM
It was clear to me he was talking about HomeFish.

I did not call anyone out by name - and did not limit it to any one person or group of people. :redface:


But we have some clear trolls here at WSI - Sox fans, I am sure - but Trolls none-the-less. I just hope people engage them less and humor them less. They feed off of that.

Again - nobody in particular - but if someone can't recognize this thread had a good bit of trolling (people coming and looking for an arguement) then they aren't looking very hard.

LoveYourSuit
06-12-2008, 12:14 AM
Well, since this arguement, Bobby has yet to throw another pitch in two nights.

I have a feeling tomorrow might be a save situation for him, let's hope he will be fine.

I think we need to start getting the man some consistant work.