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View Full Version : Where do these current players rank among the all time Sox?


firejauron
06-09-2008, 02:32 PM
Where would you guys rank current White Sox Joe Crede, Paul Konerko, and Jermaine Dye among the best Sox players at their positions? I've always admired the way these three quietly go about their business and get the job done on the field. All three are class acts and were key contributors on a World Champion Sox team. I'll be curious to see how each is individually honored by the club at the end of their careers.

areilly
06-09-2008, 03:06 PM
Where would you guys rank current White Sox Joe Crede, Paul Konerko, and Jermaine Dye among the best Sox players at their positions? I've always admired the way these three quietly go about their business and get the job done on the field. All three are class acts and were key contributors on a World Champion Sox team. I'll be curious to see how each is individually honored by the club at the end of their careers.

JD hasn't been here that long, and I don't know if Crede's body of work holds up to some of the other Sox 3B that came before him. Paulie will probably stand more of a chance at franchise immortality, if only for his tenure here and his standing on the team's all-time power hitting lists.

Eddo144
06-09-2008, 03:24 PM
Dye will always have a special place in White Sox lore as the 2005 World Series MVP, but he really won't have enough tenure with the team to place among its all-time OF, which would include Harold Baines as the RF.

Crede could arguably belong on the same level as George Kell, Bill Melton, and my personal favorite, Robin Ventura, as good-but-not-great 3B. I think the all-time team would have Buck Weaver starting at third, but I don't know a whole lot about his career.

Konerko probably has already earned a place on the bench for the all-time team, though his only chance of ever cracking the starting lineup would be if you use Frank Thomas at DH. Even then, you could argue that Dick Allen or Luke Appling should be starting at 1B.

Here's my lineup and bench:

C: Fisk
1B: Appling
2B: Fox
SS: Aparicio
3B: Weaver
LF: Jackson
CF: Minoso (out of position, but he has to be on this team)
RF: Baines
DH: Thomas

Bench: Allen, Konerko, Ventura, Eddie Collins, Ray Schalk (Appling can handle backup SS)

SP: Walsh
SP: Cicotte
SP: Pierce
SP: Lyons
SP: Wynn

Bullpen: McDowell, Wood, Wilhelm, Buehrle, Jenks, Hoyt

I've probably messed up the pitching quite a bit.

FedEx227
06-09-2008, 03:37 PM
I absolutely love Jenks, but I think it's a bit early to put him up there. Closers can flame out in a half a year, so first we have to see if he has long term staying power. I don't doubt he'll be on the list eventually, but just hasty to throw him up there now.

Eddo144
06-09-2008, 03:51 PM
I absolutely love Jenks, but I think it's a bit early to put him up there. Closers can flame out in a half a year, so first we have to see if he has long term staying power. I don't doubt he'll be on the list eventually, but just hasty to throw him up there now.
Yeah, that's a good point. I knew I messed up the pitchers somehow. There have to be some better older pitchers I just can't think of right now.

As for the lineup, you could reasonably argue for Collins over Fox. Additionally, I didn't really include any backup OF, though couldn't Dick Allen play there?

Maybe swap in Tim Raines for someone? Konerko or Allen? As it is, the team I put together has four guys who can play 1B (Appling, Thomas, Konerko, Allen). I suppose I'd drop Paulie for Raines, though Allen only had three years of service with the Sox, so he could very well be left off the team for valid reasons.

And the 1B-SS situation really could go any way, with Aparico on the bench with Appling starting at SS and Allen/Konerko at 1B, or as I have it.

Overall, a very interesting situation. I was kind of inspired by a deck of cards they sell at Borders, that has each suit representing a different era of White Sox greats. It made quite a nice addition to my brother's birthday present. :cool:

LITTLE NELL
06-09-2008, 05:26 PM
Dye will always have a special place in White Sox lore as the 2005 World Series MVP, but he really won't have enough tenure with the team to place among its all-time OF, which would include Harold Baines as the RF.

Crede could arguably belong on the same level as George Kell, Bill Melton, and my personal favorite, Robin Ventura, as good-but-not-great 3B. I think the all-time team would have Buck Weaver starting at third, but I don't know a whole lot about his career.

Konerko probably has already earned a place on the bench for the all-time team, though his only chance of ever cracking the starting lineup would be if you use Frank Thomas at DH. Even then, you could argue that Dick Allen or Luke Appling should be starting at 1B.

Here's my lineup and bench:

C: Fisk
1B: Appling
2B: Fox
SS: Aparicio
3B: Weaver
LF: Jackson
CF: Minoso (out of position, but he has to be on this team)
RF: Baines
DH: Thomas

Bench: Allen, Konerko, Ventura, Eddie Collins, Ray Schalk (Appling can handle backup SS)

SP: Walsh
SP: Cicotte
SP: Pierce
SP: Lyons
SP: Wynn

Bullpen: McDowell, Wood, Wilhelm, Buehrle, Jenks, Hoyt

I've probably messed up the pitching quite a bit.
You messed up 1B, Luke Appling spent his whole career at shortstop, then went to the Hall of Fame.

eastchicagosoxfan
06-09-2008, 05:45 PM
I understand the love for Nellie, but Eddie Colins is regarded by some as the greatest second sacker of all time. I think he would get the nod over Nellie. I'd put Ventura over Weaver. At short it's a toss up between Appling and Aparicio. Out of the pen, Thiggy was as dominant as anyone for a few years.

Eddo144
06-09-2008, 06:34 PM
You messed up 1B, Luke Appling spent his whole career at shortstop, then went to the Hall of Fame.
You're right. I wonder where I got that info, that he had spent time at 1B.

In that case, I'd probably start Appling over Aparcio, as much as I grew up with my Mom telling tales of the great double-play combo in 1959.

turners56
06-09-2008, 06:53 PM
Dye will always have a special place in White Sox lore as the 2005 World Series MVP, but he really won't have enough tenure with the team to place among its all-time OF, which would include Harold Baines as the RF.

Crede could arguably belong on the same level as George Kell, Bill Melton, and my personal favorite, Robin Ventura, as good-but-not-great 3B. I think the all-time team would have Buck Weaver starting at third, but I don't know a whole lot about his career.

Konerko probably has already earned a place on the bench for the all-time team, though his only chance of ever cracking the starting lineup would be if you use Frank Thomas at DH. Even then, you could argue that Dick Allen or Luke Appling should be starting at 1B.

Here's my lineup and bench:

C: Fisk
1B: Appling
2B: Fox
SS: Aparicio
3B: Weaver
LF: Jackson
CF: Minoso (out of position, but he has to be on this team)
RF: Baines
DH: Thomas

Bench: Allen, Konerko, Ventura, Eddie Collins, Ray Schalk (Appling can handle backup SS)

SP: Walsh
SP: Cicotte
SP: Pierce
SP: Lyons
SP: Wynn

Bullpen: McDowell, Wood, Wilhelm, Buehrle, Jenks, Hoyt

I've probably messed up the pitching quite a bit.

No Bobby Thigpen in that bullpen?

Bobby Thigpen
06-09-2008, 09:36 PM
No Bobby Thigpen in that bullpen?
:o::o::o:

dij22
06-10-2008, 03:44 AM
Luis Aparicio sucked, he had a career OPS+ of 82. And Nellie Fox wasn't much better, coming in at 93. I'm not sure whether that speaks ill of the pantheon of White Sox middle infielders, or of your ability to pick all-time great White Sox middle infielders. But anyway, the infinitely superior Collins would be the right choice for 2nd base. And Appling would be at shortstop, naturally.

As for Buck Weaver, 9 below league-average seasons does not make an all-time great White Sox. So I guess Ventura's in by default.

About Shoeless Joe, he essentially played 4 seasons for the Sox. I don't think a player should be on the team for what might have been.

A still flawed, incomplete, but better lineup would be:

C: Fisk
1B: Thomas
2B: Collins
SS: Appling
3B: Ventura
LF: Minoso
CF: ?
RF: Baines

I'm not crazy about putting Ventura there, and no center fielders are coming to mind. Thoughts?

LITTLE NELL
06-10-2008, 06:18 AM
Luis Aparicio sucked, he had a career OPS+ of 82. And Nellie Fox wasn't much better, coming in at 93. I'm not sure whether that speaks ill of the pantheon of White Sox middle infielders, or of your ability to pick all-time great White Sox middle infielders. But anyway, the infinitely superior Collins would be the right choice for 2nd base. And Appling would be at shortstop, naturally.

As for Buck Weaver, 9 below league-average seasons does not make an all-time great White Sox. So I guess Ventura's in by default.

About Shoeless Joe, he essentially played 4 seasons for the Sox. I don't think a player should be on the team for what might have been.

A still flawed, incomplete, but better lineup would be:

C: Fisk
1B: Thomas
2B: Collins
SS: Appling
3B: Ventura
LF: Minoso
CF: ?
RF: Baines

I'm not crazy about putting Ventura there, and no center fielders are coming to mind. Thoughts?
The Sox have had some great center fielders with the glove but none that was a great hitter. I would go with either Jim Landis or Chet Lemon. Ken Berry was also great with the glove but not much of a hitter. Before my time I hear Mike Kreevich was pretty good.

ode to veeck
06-10-2008, 07:20 AM
The Sox have had some great center fielders with the glove but none that was a great hitter. I would go with either Jim Landis or Chet Lemon. Ken Berry was also great with the glove but not much of a hitter. Before my time I hear Mike Kreevich was pretty good.


Chet should get it, if only to see him slide into 1st at least one more time

TommyJohn
06-10-2008, 08:08 AM
I'm not crazy about putting Ventura there, and no center fielders are coming to mind. Thoughts?

The Sox have had some great center fielders with the glove but none that was a great hitter. I would go with either Jim Landis or Chet Lemon. Ken Berry was also great with the glove but not much of a hitter. Before my time I hear Mike Kreevich was pretty good.

Johnny Mostil from the 1920's is a good choice. Very good hitter and a
fine fielder, or so I read. He enjoyed his best seasons from 1921-26; his
career went into decline following a mysterious suicide attempt in 1927.
I think you could put him up against Jim Landis or Chet Lemon.

Malgar 12
06-10-2008, 09:01 AM
I could be wrong. My memories of Micro League baseball in 7th and 8th grade are getting pretty hazy, but I think the Sox had a great hitter named Zeke Bonura. If I recall correctly and this is a big if, he played 3B.

Nope, 1B...

Check out his 1936 season.

http://http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bonurze01.shtml (http://http//www.baseball-reference.com/b/bonurze01.shtml)

misty60481
06-10-2008, 09:03 AM
I think Red Faber should be included in the pitchers he won over 250 games with the Sox, funny how his name doesnt come up more often. Sherman Lollar had some good years as a catcher, I think I read that Appling only played 13 games at 1st base.

Ziggy S
06-10-2008, 09:13 AM
Lance Johnson should get some love at CF.

ondafarm
06-10-2008, 10:36 AM
As far as the Eddie Collins - Nellie Fox decision at second goes, I'd have a couple of questions.

First, Collins was not a great defender routinely making 20 odd errors a season. He didn't turn a lot of double plays and didn't field a large number of total chances. That being said, he was clearly a better offensive player than Fox.

Therefore, my questions would be, what type of pitching are we fielding and also expecting to see. If we are going to be facing a tight game where manufactering a single run could win it, then nobody could handle the bat when bunting like Fox. According to my mom (who albeit is biased as the founder of the Nellie Fox fan club) he fairly routinely beat out sac bunts for hits.

If we are talking about a likely slugfest, sure, I go with Collins.

areilly
06-10-2008, 10:45 AM
As far as the Eddie Collins - Nellie Fox decision at second goes, I'd have a couple of questions.

First, Collins was not a great defender routinely making 20 odd errors a season. He didn't turn a lot of double plays and didn't field a large number of total chances. That being said, he was clearly a better offensive player than Fox.

Therefore, my questions would be, what type of pitching are we fielding and also expecting to see. If we are going to be facing a tight game where manufactering a single run could win it, then nobody could handle the bat when bunting like Fox. According to my mom (who albeit is biased as the founder of the Nellie Fox fan club) he fairly routinely beat out sac bunts for hits.

If we are talking about a likely slugfest, sure, I go with Collins.

To keep the discussion moving, let's say the All-Time Sox are playing the All-Time, oh, I don't know. . . Seattle Mariners. Best of seven.

Eddo144
06-10-2008, 11:00 AM
As far as the Eddie Collins - Nellie Fox decision at second goes, I'd have a couple of questions.

First, Collins was not a great defender routinely making 20 odd errors a season. He didn't turn a lot of double plays and didn't field a large number of total chances. That being said, he was clearly a better offensive player than Fox.

Therefore, my questions would be, what type of pitching are we fielding and also expecting to see. If we are going to be facing a tight game where manufactering a single run could win it, then nobody could handle the bat when bunting like Fox. According to my mom (who albeit is biased as the founder of the Nellie Fox fan club) he fairly routinely beat out sac bunts for hits.

If we are talking about a likely slugfest, sure, I go with Collins.
If our game takes place in the modern AL, we could DH Collins and play Fox at 2B. Actually, I like that.

I'm keeping Jackson, despite dij22's objections (he's known as a member of the Sox, and tied for third all-time in BA). I'll replace Weaver with Ventura at his request, however. And I'm forced to play either Minoso (could he?) or Jackson in CF.

DH Collins
SS Appling
CF Jackson
1B Thomas
RF Baines
LF Minoso
3B Ventura
C Fisk
2B Fox

jabrch
06-10-2008, 11:15 AM
Luis Aparicio sucked, he had a career OPS+ of 82. And Nellie Fox wasn't much better, coming in at 93.
.
.
.


Thoughts?


Yes - You don't know all that much about baseball if your method of evaluating a player is OPS+ and if that's enough to conclude that Fox and Aparacio "suck".

cheezheadsoxfan
06-10-2008, 11:29 AM
Luis Aparicio sucked, he had a career OPS+ of 82. And Nellie Fox wasn't much better, coming in at 93.



:screwloose:

That is one of the silliest things I've ever seen on these boards.

MisterB
06-10-2008, 11:52 AM
As far as the Eddie Collins - Nellie Fox decision at second goes, I'd have a couple of questions.

First, Collins was not a great defender routinely making 20 odd errors a season. He didn't turn a lot of double plays and didn't field a large number of total chances. That being said, he was clearly a better offensive player than Fox.

Therefore, my questions would be, what type of pitching are we fielding and also expecting to see. If we are going to be facing a tight game where manufactering a single run could win it, then nobody could handle the bat when bunting like Fox. According to my mom (who albeit is biased as the founder of the Nellie Fox fan club) he fairly routinely beat out sac bunts for hits.

If we are talking about a likely slugfest, sure, I go with Collins.

Fielding stats from the deadball era don't compare well to the modern game. The fields were not well manicured and the official scoring was pretty unforgiving.

For his career Collins had a .970 FLD% and 5.43 TC/G, whereas the league averages for 2B over that time were .958 & 5.10. He led the league in DP at his position several times and was usually among the league leaders each year. For the era he played in, Collins was a superior defensive second baseman. As always, there's no telling how that compares across eras.

ondafarm
06-10-2008, 10:39 PM
Fielding stats from the deadball era don't compare well to the modern game. The fields were not well manicured and the official scoring was pretty unforgiving.

For his career Collins had a .970 FLD% and 5.43 TC/G, whereas the league averages for 2B over that time were .958 & 5.10. He led the league in DP at his position several times and was usually among the league leaders each year. For the era he played in, Collins was a superior defensive second baseman. As always, there's no telling how that compares across eras.

I have a glove from 1920 and I don't think Ozzie Smith could field very well with it.

I agree with your comparison to a point. 1906, when Collins broke in was the deadball era, but 1930, when he retired wasn't. By 1930 most of the fields were fairly close to standard level of grounds keeping.

Collins had an unusual number of putouts compared to assists throughout his career. For example, in 1922, he had 406 PO, 451 assists, with 73 DP. His shortstop, Ernie Johnson, a career .944 FPCT had 468 assists and 259 PO. What that means to me is Johnson was the cover man (goes to second base) on balls in the air and Collins was the speed guy going to get a lot of pop flies. That keeps your FPCT high, artificially high IMHO. Pop flies that drop are almost never errors, but they add to your PO.

That was the reverse of the standard practice at that time (although not terribly uncommon.)

I don't think Collins was a superior defender for his time, just as the star and a definite speed guy, his teammates gave him an edge. It seems to show in his stats.

ondafarm
06-10-2008, 10:40 PM
If our game takes place in the modern AL, we could DH Collins and play Fox at 2B. Actually, I like that.

I'm keeping Jackson, despite dij22's objections (he's known as a member of the Sox, and tied for third all-time in BA). I'll replace Weaver with Ventura at his request, however. And I'm forced to play either Minoso (could he?) or Jackson in CF.

DH Collins
SS Appling
CF Jackson
1B Thomas
RF Baines
LF Minoso
3B Ventura
C Fisk
2B Fox

I think I'd rather Jackson in CF than Minoso who'd get LF.

Elephant
06-10-2008, 11:08 PM
Ugh. This thread reminds me why we have one championship in 91 years.

Nellie_Fox
06-11-2008, 12:42 AM
Luis Aparicio sucked ... and Nellie Fox wasn't much betterBoy, am I glad you got whacked before I got here.

Aparicio led the American League in stolen bases for nine consecutive years, making a lot of his hits and walks into doubles that don't show up in slugging %. Then there's the fact that he was arguably the best defensive shortstop in the game.

Nellie never struck out 20 times in a year. That's a staggering figure. He was the quintessential #2 hitter, always putting the ball in play to advance runners.

Both of them played in an era when you didn't get rewarded only for selfish stats, and were willing to give themselves up to hit behind runners and put down a bunt. You fantasy playing, offensive stats only guys give me heartburn.

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-11-2008, 03:58 AM
IMO Konerko could be the best firstbaseman in team history if you count Thomas as a DH. I would put Ventura and Weaver ahead of Crede as thirdbase goes. Dye hasn't been here long enough.