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Lillian
06-03-2008, 06:36 AM
The Red Sox may now need a DH with Ortiz headed to the DL, and the rest of his season in doubt. Now maybe Theo will be ready to deal Crisp. Ellsbury is cementing his place in CF.

Why not try to trade one of our DH type guys, Thome preferably, for Crisp, and a prospect?
He would improve the defense in CF over Swisher, and give us a lead off bat.
Even if he doesn't bat lead off, at least he adds some team speed.
Or is there someone else in that organization that would be better for us, whom we could realistically acquire for Thome?
Jim would give the Red Sox a Left handed power bat to replace Oritz.
It would also avoid the sensitive issue of Thome's automatic option exercise at the end of this year.
Would they want him?

I know this seems lopsided, but we all seem to agree that the White Sox just have too many of those kinds of players; slow, high strike out, one dimensional.

I didn't say what we would do with Swisher. Maybe he could DH, providing that he could start to hit. That leaves Brian out of the starting lineup, but he doesn't seem to have much of a shot at playing regularly anyway.

Lillian
06-03-2008, 06:54 AM
Whether or not Swisher eventually starts hitting, I have a hard time envisioning him being a good enough offensive player to justify the defense the team gives up with him in Center. He is a corner outfielder, or first baseman. At least Crisp gives you really good defense.

DumpJerry
06-03-2008, 08:12 AM
You do realize that Thome has a full no trade clause, don't you?

Lillian
06-03-2008, 08:18 AM
You do realize that Thome has a full no trade clause, don't you?

Wouldn't you think that he would relish a chance to go to the World Series?

Garland_IS_God
06-03-2008, 08:32 AM
Thome would jump to Boston in a heart beat, that being said, this trade would never happen.

Thome25
06-03-2008, 08:46 AM
Well we do have about 3 or 4 DH type guys. Dye, Swisher, Konerko, and Thome all fit this description.

Maybe there's a fit with at least one of these guys?

A. Cavatica
06-03-2008, 08:54 AM
Even with their offensive numbers way down, all four of Thome/Swisher/Konerko/Dye are worth more than Crisp. I doubt the Red Sox would see it that way, though.

kjhanson
06-03-2008, 11:54 AM
Wouldn't you think that he would relish a chance to go to the World Series?

Our current team has a better shot to go to the World Series than the David Ortiz-less Red Sox do right now.

Besides, what excites you about Coco Crisp?

.236/.276/.361, 1 HR, 9 RBI, 72 at-bats
.250/.292/.383, 2 HR, 11 RBI, 128 at-bats

BA's splits are on the first row, Covelli's are on the second. Please tell me why Coco Crisp is a legitimate upgrade over Brian Anderson - and why we would give up someone with the potential to hit 35 home runs to acquire him?

Every month another mindless member on this site falls in love with Coco Crisp. You get this month's award.

kjhanson
06-03-2008, 11:58 AM
Oh, and before his incredible 1 for 2 game last night, he was 2 for his last 34. That makes him 3 for his last 36. Which means that he's slumping right now. I don't know about you, but if I have a choice between two slumping players (Thome & Crisp), I'm taking the one whose upside can carry a ballclub.

hi im skot
06-03-2008, 11:59 AM
:whiteflag:

thedudeabides
06-03-2008, 12:10 PM
Ugh. Another Coco Crisp thread. I've been waiting for one.

Maybe we can get him for Eldred.

Lillian
06-03-2008, 12:57 PM
Our current team has a better shot to go to the World Series than the David Ortiz-less Red Sox do right now.

Besides, what excites you about Coco Crisp?

.236/.276/.361, 1 HR, 9 RBI, 72 at-bats
.250/.292/.383, 2 HR, 11 RBI, 128 at-bats

BA's splits are on the first row, Covelli's are on the second. Please tell me why Coco Crisp is a legitimate upgrade over Brian Anderson - and why we would give up someone with the potential to hit 35 home runs to acquire him?

Every month another mindless member on this site falls in love with Coco Crisp. You get this month's award.

Aside from the other points that I've already mentioned, the simple fact is that Thome just may be too old to continue to be expected to produce.
I think we have all gotten accustomed to seeing guys with extended careers, during the Performance Enhancing Drugs Era. We have forgotten that the normal career expectancy for guys used to be considerably less.
I understand that players today train harder, and eat better, however you can already see how it is becoming a younger man's sport again this year.

In addition, I am concerned about keeping Thome, and playing him enough so that the option is exercised next year. Do you really want him back in '09 at $13 million? Moreover, I don't think that the Phillies would be on the hook for any of that.

I am not especially enamored with Crisp, however he is one possible acquisition that would likely be feasible to fill our need for a lead off hitter.
I'd prefer Roberts, but the Orioles want young talent, which we don't have available.

Who would you suggest the Sox try to acquire? And who should they offer in return?

kjhanson
06-03-2008, 01:17 PM
I am not especially enamored with Crisp, however he is one possible acquisition that would likely be feasible to fill our need for a lead off hitter.


You still did not answer the question...how is Coco Crisp an upgrade over what we currently have today? Defensively, he's no better than Brian Anderson, whom we could trot out there for the rest of the season if we wanted to. Offensively, he's no better than B.A. either.

Also, what makes you think he is an effective leadoff hitter? Certainly it's not .292 OBP (.327 career). Is it the seven stolen bases he has? Can't be; because you're advocating him as the leadoff hitter instead of Cabrera and his 9 stolen bases.

If he's not in upgrade offensively or defensively in center, or an upgrade at the leadoff spot, why even bring his name up? The job of a GM is not to make a move for the sake of making a move. I wouldn't acquire anyone at the moment, though I'd certianly make some lineup changes.

Bill Naharodny
06-03-2008, 01:21 PM
Haven't you heard? Coco's OPS isn't good enough for our high-powered team.

Lip Man 1
06-03-2008, 01:22 PM
Kjhanson:

Well apparently he was of significant interest to Kenny Williams, at least according to today's Sun-Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/983133,sox060208.article

Lip

kjhanson
06-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Kjhanson:

Well apparently he was of significant interest to Kenny Williams, at least according to today's Sun-Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/983133,sox060208.article

Lip

Lip,

That was old news from 6 months ago. It was widely reported that Williams wanted Crisp to man center-field. That was before the Swisher trade and well before the emergence of Carlos Quentin. Back then I expressed disapproval with a potential move for Coco Crisp because he wasn't an upgrade over what we had, and certainly isn't today.

Bottom Line: Coco Crisp does not help us win ballgames any more than who we have on our roster today.

VeeckAsInWreck
06-03-2008, 02:01 PM
http://allcarsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/22001.jpg

munchman33
06-03-2008, 02:11 PM
Bottom Line: Coco Crisp does not help us win ballgames any more than who we have on our roster today.

I'll never understand why people downgrade Coco's ability yet upgrade Swisher's. It makes no sense.

VeeckAsInWreck
06-03-2008, 02:16 PM
I'll never understand why people downgrade Coco's ability yet upgrade Swisher's. It makes no sense.

What abilities does Coco have over Swisher other than foot speed? :scratch:

Lillian
06-03-2008, 02:28 PM
You still did not answer the question...how is Coco Crisp an upgrade over what we currently have today? Defensively, he's no better than Brian Anderson, whom we could trot out there for the rest of the season if we wanted to. Offensively, he's no better than B.A. either.

Also, what makes you think he is an effective leadoff hitter? Certainly it's not .292 OBP (.327 career). Is it the seven stolen bases he has? Can't be; because you're advocating him as the leadoff hitter instead of Cabrera and his 9 stolen bases.

If he's not in upgrade offensively or defensively in center, or an upgrade at the leadoff spot, why even bring his name up? The job of a GM is not to make a move for the sake of making a move. I wouldn't acquire anyone at the moment, though I'd certianly make some lineup changes.

Brian is not a lead off hitter. I'd love to see him get regular playing time, but he wouldn't fill that need.
Could you possibly be under estimating Crisp? I always remember the two pretty solid years he played at Cleveland. He hit .300 over those 1000+ at bats, and hit 42 doubles one year. His OBP was .345 during that time.
He was 24 and 25 then. Brian has never put up numbers anywhere close to that. So that's how I think that he could be a better offensive player.
Brian has a lot of potential, but has never realized it. This guy has, and it seems more probable that he could regain it.
He is still young enough to be capable of that kind of performance, and there were injuries that could explain his recent fall off in production.
I would think that he is still capable of his career averages, and a .278 average with a .327 OBP would be OK for a good glove, and lead off hitter.

It's fine that Cabrera can run a little as well, but the Sox need a few more guys with speed.

cards press box
06-03-2008, 02:41 PM
I wonder if Juan Pierre is available? He is batting .279 with 0 HR 18 RBI and an OBP of .347. I'm a fan of Jim Thome and I know he has a no-trade clause. Still, the Dodgers sorely lack power and the White Sox sorely lack a leadoff man so a Pierre/Thome swap would seem to match needs. Given Pierre's contract status, I imagine that the Sox would want the Dodgers to assume part of Pierre's contract.

All that said, I can't imagine Thome agreeing to finish this season in L.A. and this proposed swap is almost certainly idle speculation.

russ99
06-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Could you possibly be under estimating Crisp? I always remember the two pretty solid years he played at Cleveland. He hit .300 over those 1000+ at bats, and hit 42 doubles one year. His OBP was .345 during that time. He was 24 and 25 then.

That's the thing about Coco. Who's to say he'd go back to the numbers he posted those two years in Cleveland, even if he played full time...

Also, as I recall all 3 of Thome, Konerko and Dye have no-trade clauses this year.

Lillian
06-03-2008, 03:00 PM
I wonder if Juan Pierre is available? He is batting .279 with 0 HR 18 RBI and an OBP of .347. I'm a fan of Jim Thome and I know he has a no-trade clause. Still, the Dodgers sorely lack power and the White Sox sorely lack a leadoff man so a Pierre/Thome swap would seem to match needs. Given Pierre's contract status, I imagine that the Sox would want the Dodgers to assume part of Pierre's contract.

All that said, I can't imagine Thome agreeing to finish this season in L.A. and this proposed swap is almost certainly idle speculation.

Yes, and the other problem is that there is no DH in the National League.
Pierre is a defensive liability with his arm.

Lillian
06-03-2008, 03:03 PM
I really wish that there were a better option, and a team that could use Thome. Right now, the Red Sox seem to be the best candidate. They have the money, are in win mode, and need a replacement for Ortiz.

Jaffar
06-03-2008, 03:04 PM
Yes, and the other problem is that there is no DH in the National League.
Pierre is a defensive liability with his arm.

Not if he was our DH :redneck I made it teal although I shouldn't have to.

Lillian
06-03-2008, 03:05 PM
Not if he was our DH :redneck I made it teal although I shouldn't have to.

If he DH's then Swisher has to play CF. I don't like that option either, do you?

Huisj
06-03-2008, 03:26 PM
I wonder if Juan Pierre is available? He is batting .279 with 0 HR 18 RBI and an OBP of .347. I'm a fan of Jim Thome and I know he has a no-trade clause. Still, the Dodgers sorely lack power and the White Sox sorely lack a leadoff man so a Pierre/Thome swap would seem to match needs. Given Pierre's contract status, I imagine that the Sox would want the Dodgers to assume part of Pierre's contract.

All that said, I can't imagine Thome agreeing to finish this season in L.A. and this proposed swap is almost certainly idle speculation.

LA may lack power right now, but their lineup has some great young talent in it, including Loney at 1B. Sure, he's only got 5 homers right now, but he put up a pretty dang good slugging percentage last year, and I don't think they'd sit him for Thome at this point (and platooning wouldn't make sense since he's a lefty too).

kjhanson
06-03-2008, 03:29 PM
I'll never understand why people downgrade Coco's ability yet upgrade Swisher's. It makes no sense.

Please enlighten us on Crisp's true ability. Don't forget to use consistent logic, facts, and figures when necessary.

My guess is it goes something like this...
"In 2004 he did this and in 2005 he did that..."

To which I respond...
"In his last 1067 at-bats, he's a .260/.320/.385 hitter"
Baseball Reference similar batters: Such immortals as Marvin Bernard, Alex Ochoa, Gabe Kapler and GASP, Chris Singleton!

I'd have to say that the evaluation of his abilities is pretty spot-on by most people in this thread: He's not better than what we have right now.

Jaffar
06-03-2008, 04:11 PM
If he DH's then Swisher has to play CF. I don't like that option either, do you?

Absolutely not, it was total sarcasm, I just know somebody would say it, I think Pierre is a joke.

munchman33
06-03-2008, 04:15 PM
What abilities does Coco have over Swisher other than foot speed? :scratch:

The ability to situational hit; to put the ball in an exact spot or hit it in a general area on the field.

Please enlighten us on Crisp's true ability. Don't forget to use consistent logic, facts, and figures when necessary.

My guess is it goes something like this...
"In 2004 he did this and in 2005 he did that..."

To which I respond...
"In his last 1067 at-bats, he's a .260/.320/.385 hitter"
Baseball Reference similar batters: Such immortals as Marvin Bernard, Alex Ochoa, Gabe Kapler and GASP, Chris Singleton!

I'd have to say that the evaluation of his abilities is pretty spot-on by most people in this thread: He's not better than what we have right now.


If Swisher put up a .260/.320/.385 line, we'd be ten games up. But he isn't even that good.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2008, 04:19 PM
The ability to situational hit; to put the ball in an exact spot or hit it in a general area on the field.




If Swisher put up a .260/.320/.385 line, we'd be ten games up. But he isn't even that good.
He's actually been way better his whole career -- but don't let that get in the way of your crybaby bull****.

munchman33
06-03-2008, 04:28 PM
He's actually been way better his whole career -- but don't let that get in the way of your crybaby bull****.

Why because he walks more? :rolleyes:

The guys a first basemen who doesn't hit for enough power or average, so they moved him into the outfield where he's less than adequate at best.

Your problem is you just look at the numbers, not why the numbers are what they are. Swisher got on base because he was left-handed and preferred not to swing in situations that pitchers want to face a righty. Not because he's any good.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Why because he walks more? :rolleyes:

The guys a first basemen who doesn't hit for enough power or average, so they moved him into the outfield where he's less than adequate at best.
He's actually a pretty good outfielder. Not great, but he's done nothing that would put him below average.

If you could tell me how, why, or on what planet Coco is better than Swish, I'd love to hear it.

kjhanson
06-03-2008, 04:53 PM
The ability to situational hit; to put the ball in an exact spot or hit it in a general area on the field.

Crisp is hitting .194 with RISP this year in 31 at-bats.
Swisher is hitting .139 with RISP in 36 at-bats.

If Swisher hit .194 over those 36 at-bats, he would have had two more hits.

If Swisher put up a .260/.320/.385 line, we'd be ten games up. But he isn't even that good.

You think we'd be 40-16 if we had Crisp instead of Swisher? Remember, I asked you to use logic in your response.

munchman33
06-03-2008, 04:55 PM
You think we'd be 40-16 if we had Crisp instead of Swisher? Remember, I asked you to use logic in your response.

No, I said we would be with if Swish had a .260/.320/.385 line. It's that much better than what he's done.

Eddo144
06-03-2008, 05:38 PM
The ability to situational hit; to put the ball in an exact spot or hit it in a general area on the field.
Then he'd be hitting 1.000, or at least close to it.

Why do people act like (a) situation hitting is an ability some players just don't decide to use and (b) that good situational hitters should somehow come through every time up? It's like they ignore the fact that there's a pitcher on the mound specifically trying to prevent hitters from succeeding?

Optipessimism
06-03-2008, 06:19 PM
Coco Crisp is always a bad idea.

Always.

turners56
06-03-2008, 06:28 PM
Some guys just suck in Boston. Orlando Cabrera did. :shrug:

Lillian
06-03-2008, 07:40 PM
One of my biggest concerns over Thome, and my eagerness to trade him, is this automatic option renewal for $13 million at the end of the year.
I just looked it up again, and I discovered that the option is triggered only if he has 1,100 plate appearances between '07 and '08 combined. Apparently he missed the 600 plate appearance plateau last year, which would have also triggered it. In that he only had about 530 last year, is it reasonable to expect him to get the 570 he would need to make it to the two year total of 1,100?

If we don't need to worry about his contract renewal, I don't feel the same urgency. How do you people feel?

forrestg
06-03-2008, 08:04 PM
I think prying crisp away from Boston wouldn't take much. However; I 'm unsure of how he could help us.. I believe most of the time that a trade will usually involve an outfielder for an outfielder.. The other thing is if we trade Thome, if he would go, what would Boston do with him and Jim's huge salary once big Popi returns. Swisher is slumping badly but he is hitting a lot of balls hard they are just not falling..Center is not his position but I believe he could be a great role player for the Carmines

A. Cavatica
06-04-2008, 12:54 AM
Boston has no need for a DH, or an outfielder. They can have Manny DH and play Crisp in left, or call up Brandon Moss.