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View Full Version : Nick Swisher = Steve Sax?


kingpin_rcs
05-31-2008, 02:38 AM
Remember when we got Steve Sax? It was in 1992. He was an all star second baseman from the Dodgers and Yankees. In the year prior to joining the Sox he hit .304/.345/.414. His first year with the Sox? .236/.290/.317.
He played only 64 games after that year.

It's not really the same. Sax was 32 when he joined the Sox and was a seasoned veteran. Swisher is only 27 and should have his best years ahead of him.

It all just just seems very similar to me. Sax was supposed to be the missing link to get the team over the hump but he was a huge disappointment.

So far, this year, Swisher is turning out to be nearly the same level of disappointment. 2007 - .262/.381/.455 Apr-May 2008 - .207/.332/.318

I really, really hope he turns it around. Not only for the team's sake but for his. I know he really wants to be liked by the fans and might be trying to hard.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 02:44 AM
Remember when we got Steve Sax? It was in 1992. He was an all star second baseman from the Dodgers and Yankees. In the year prior to joining the Sox he hit .304/.345/.414. His first year with the Sox? .236/.290/.317.
He played only 64 games after that year.

It's not really the same. Sax was 32 when he joined the Sox and was a seasoned veteran. Swisher is only 27 and should have his best years ahead of him.

It all just just seems very similar to me. Sax was supposed to be the missing link to get the team over the hump but he was a huge disappointment.

So far, this year, Swisher is turning out to be nearly the same level of disappointment. 2007 - .262/.381/.455 Apr-May 2008 - .207/.332/.318

I really, really hope he turns it around. Not only for the team's sake but for his. I know he really wants to be liked by the fans and might be trying to hard.
He's hitting the ball hard. His BABIP is way too low. His average will come up. His peripherals do not match his numbers. Relax.

Vernam
05-31-2008, 05:10 AM
In some alternate universe, there's a basketball player named Nick Whiffer. And he's having one helluva year.

Vernam

TomBradley72
05-31-2008, 08:26 AM
More like Cory Snyder from the same era.

Swisher WAS hitting the ball hard...now he's just whiffing, flying out to left, or grounding into double plays. He's a lifetime .250 hitter with alot of strike outs....so I'm not that excited about when he returns to his "career levels".

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 09:22 AM
More like Cory Snyder from the same era.

Swisher WAS hitting the ball hard...now he's just whiffing, flying out to left, or grounding into double plays. He's a lifetime .250 hitter with alot of strike outs....so I'm not that excited about when he returns to his "career levels".
Way to cherry pick statistics. BA is not the end all be all, in fact, it's one of the worst ways to evaluate a hitter. It's like evaluating a pitcher based on wild pitches.

ondafarm
05-31-2008, 10:12 AM
Swish was in a hard spot early in this season playing both CF and leading off. He's not really ideal for either of those roles and they are both intellectually very challenging. He's gotten in a hole because of it and needs to take a little more time off than Guillen is giving him.

balke
05-31-2008, 10:13 AM
Way to cherry pick statistics. BA is not the end all be all, in fact, it's one of the worst ways to evaluate a hitter. It's like evaluating a pitcher based on wild pitches.

On a team without any AVG., you're going to miss avg. a lot more. Especially when that team is dead last in hitting w/risp.

Swisher has decent power but that doesn't negate a bad batting average. Those walks aren't scoring anyone from 2nd or 3rd base. They merely put him on 1st opening up a double play for the guy behind him.

If Swisher could steal, that OBP. would be awesome. As it is, the walks are much less valuable than that .050 of avg. he's missing from his career numbers. 5 RBI more than Anderson right now with 118 more AB's

Edit: Sox are actually only dead last in RISP w/ 2 outs. They are actually 10th in RISP. But the point stands.

hawkjt
05-31-2008, 11:00 AM
Swish has 36 hits..Thome has 37 and PK has 37. Ouch.
Hamilton of Texas has 74 hits. Thats right he has as many as any two of our guys added together.
I am trying to dwell on the long run vs the painful short term struggles of these three. I do think PK will bounce out soon. Thome either will break out or he is done. Swish? White Sox disease,I guess. Cabrera has had it also but is now breaking out.

palehozenychicty
05-31-2008, 11:36 AM
Swish was in a hard spot early in this season playing both CF and leading off. He's not really ideal for either of those roles and they are both intellectually very challenging. He's gotten in a hole because of it and needs to take a little more time off than Guillen is giving him.


I think this is the biggest issue with him, that he's been playing out of position and it's affected his all around game. Once he gets into a corner spot or 1st base, he should be a much better player. As we know, that won't happen until the offseason at the earliest.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2008, 11:48 AM
I think Swisher = Cory Snyder, while Cabrera = Steve Sax. :(:

Trav
05-31-2008, 11:54 AM
Swisher rarely makes productive outs and it seems like he doesn't hit with men on. Those are my biggest complaints about him offensively. If he would move runners over from time to time, I would feel better about him being signed for a few more years.

voodoochile
05-31-2008, 11:56 AM
Swisher rarely makes productive outs and it seems like he doesn't hit with men on. Those are my biggest complaints about him offensively. If he would move runners over from time to time, I would feel better about him being signed for a few more years.

He's cheap though. Unless this is simply Swisher losing it completely, the Sox will get their money's worth out of him by the time this contract expires, IMO. Hopefully that starts to happen this summer and not Spring of 2009, but either way, he'll eventually be productive.

LoveYourSuit
05-31-2008, 12:16 PM
He's hitting the ball hard. His BABIP is way too low. His average will come up. His peripherals do not match his numbers. Relax.


please don't believe this pile of crap. "hitting the ball hard" is no way to determine if a hitter has a clue on situational hitting.


So in the words of Hawk, Swisher is a tough luck .200 hitter? or hitting a "hard" .200?

Give me a break guys. Swisher sucks and he has sucked all year so far.

Can he turn it around? Perhaps. But I am starting to get way too suspiscous about him being that him coming from the Bay Area. Decline in numbers last year and now complete free fall this year.

But as Voodoo said, Swisher's contract will not cripple this franchise and if we need to bench him then go for it. The prospects we gave are turning out to be sort of bust over there too (DLS hurt, Gio 5+era, Sweeney just a throw in).

roadrunner
05-31-2008, 12:24 PM
He's hitting the ball hard. His BABIP is way too low. His average will come up. His peripherals do not match his numbers. Relax.

His lifetime numbers agianst righties are .239/.338/.456 for his career and this year are 199/301/326.

Regardless of what his peripherals say overall, any numbers you want to parade out there to defend him are not going to cover the fact he completely sucks as a left handed hitter this year and he's been less than mediocre for his career as a lefty.

Also, I completely disagree about the him "hitting the ball hard."

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 12:33 PM
please don't believe this pile of crap. "hitting the ball hard" is no way to determine if a hitter has a clue on situational hitting.


So in the words of Hawk, Swisher is a tough luck .200 hitter? or hitting a "hard" .200?

Give me a break guys. Swisher sucks and he has sucked all year so far.

Can he turn it around? Perhaps. But I am starting to get way too suspiscous about him being that him coming from the Bay Area. Decline in numbers last year and now complete free fall this year.

But as Voodoo said, Swisher's contract will not cripple this franchise and if we need to bench him then go for it. The prospects we gave are turning out to be sort of bust over there too (DLS hurt, Gio 5+era, Sweeney just a throw in).

Just say it. Steroids. If you're going to throw that bull**** out there don't be a ***** and insinuate it.

LoveYourSuit
05-31-2008, 12:58 PM
Just say it. Steroids. If you're going to throw that bull**** out there don't be a ***** and insinuate it.


I meant JambaJuice.

:rolleyes:

JorgeFabregas
05-31-2008, 01:11 PM
Just say it. Steroids. If you're going to throw that bull**** out there don't be a ***** and insinuate it.
I think he'll turn it around, but I remember thinking HGH in 2006 when his face stopped looking squished into his helmet--meaning that either the size/shape of his head had changed and/or he had finally realized that he needed a bigger helmet.

Looking back at some of his 2005 baseball cards, it might just be the case that he lost some chubbiness in his face.

TDog
05-31-2008, 01:28 PM
I think Swisher = Cory Snyder, while Cabrera = Steve Sax. :(:

Cabrera has been playing an excellent shortstop and has been a pretty good leadoff hitter since getting off to a slow start. Swisher wasn't a very good hitter with the A's last year when he was the closest thing they had to a regular centerfielder. Far from catching "White Sox disease" (an affliction on which Quentin is thriving), the A's dumped Swisher on the White Sox and are a better team for not having him around, regardless of the progress of the prospects they got in return.

JorgeFabregas
05-31-2008, 01:35 PM
Cabrera has been playing an excellent shortstop and has been a pretty good leadoff hitter since getting off to a slow start. Swisher wasn't a very good hitter with the A's last year when he was the closest thing they had to a regular centerfielder. Far from catching "White Sox disease" (an affliction on which Quentin is thriving), the A's dumped Swisher on the White Sox and are a better team for not having him around, regardless of the progress of the prospects they got in return.
He posted an .836 OPS last year--the second-highest of his career. No one would complain if he did that this year.

Thome25
05-31-2008, 02:09 PM
Comparing Swisher to Steve Sax is like comparing "apples to shish kabobs". It's not even "apples to oranges" because at least they're both fruit.

You're not even in the ballpark when you compare the two.

HawkDJ
05-31-2008, 02:17 PM
In some alternate universe, there's a basketball player named Nick Whiffer. And he's having one helluva year.

Vernam


One of the funniest things I've read on WSI.

JB98
05-31-2008, 02:37 PM
I'm so disappointed in Swisher. I loved the trade when it was made. Now, it looks like a train wreck. :(:

I didn't even have that high of expectations. I thought Swisher would hit about .260, with 20-25 HRs and 70-80 RBIs. Those hopes look like pipe dreams right now.

If Swisher does not heat up in June, it will be time to make a change in CF. Again.

whitesox901
05-31-2008, 02:48 PM
Maybe Swisher is just having a bad year? Players have them. Maybe its just a slump. extended slup? sure. But im one of them ol' wait em out kinda guy. Im sure him, paul, and Big Jim will all get it going soon enough. On a side note gotta love posting on WSI on a nice saturday afternoon listening to SlipKnoT.

TDog
05-31-2008, 03:02 PM
He posted an .836 OPS last year--the second-highest of his career. No one would complain if he did that this year.

If he doesn't hit or drive in runs, I would complain if his OPS was .900.

JB98
05-31-2008, 03:05 PM
If he doesn't hit or drive in runs, I would complain if his OPS was .900.

Right now, Swisher is on pace for just 12 HRs and 42 RBIs. That's just terrible. Well below his career norms.

He doesn't need to be the main run producer in this lineup, but he needs to be a lot better than this.

TDog
05-31-2008, 03:11 PM
Right now, Swisher is on pace for just 12 HRs and 42 RBIs. That's just terrible. Well below his career norms.

He doesn't need to be the main run producer in this lineup, but he needs to be a lot better than this.

The thing is, I don't think he is. In January, I expected to see him as a .240 hitter who could hit 20 home runs while striking out 150 times, often with men on third and less than one out. Lots of walks. I imagined he would walk just about every time he came up with runners in scoring position and two outs. Mr. Swisher is not even playing up to my expectations.

Konerko05
05-31-2008, 03:12 PM
please don't believe this pile of crap. "hitting the ball hard" is no way to determine if a hitter has a clue on situational hitting.
The prospects we gave are turning out to be sort of bust over there too (DLS hurt, Gio 5+era, Sweeney just a throw in).

:scratch:

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 03:14 PM
The thing is, I don't think he is. In January, I expected to see him as a .240 hitter who could hit 20 home runs while striking out 150 times, often with men on third and less than one out. Lots of walks. I imagined he would walk just about every time he came up with runners in scoring position and two outs. Mr. Swisher is not even playing up to my expectations.
Well I'm glad you have him figured out. Lord knows there's never been a player in the history of the game who played below expectations for two months.

Speaking of, I sure am glad we got rid of Konerko after 2003. What a piece of **** he was.

voodoochile
05-31-2008, 03:24 PM
I think he'll turn it around, but I remember thinking HGH in 2006 when his face stopped looking squished into his helmet--meaning that either the size/shape of his head had changed and/or he had finally realized that he needed a bigger helmet.

Looking back at some of his 2005 baseball cards, it might just be the case that he lost some chubbiness in his face.

Maybe WSI should start having buckets of KFC delivered to him in the dugout...:tongue:

TDog
05-31-2008, 03:29 PM
Well I'm glad you have him figured out. Lord knows there's never been a player in the history of the game who played below expectations for two months.

Speaking of, I sure am glad we got rid of Konerko after 2003. What a piece of **** he was.

I had the advantage of watching Swisher play last season and had to listen to complaining A's fans who watched him play last season. I don't know why people are impressed with his stats, but on the field he didn't even look as that good.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 03:41 PM
I had the advantage of watching Swisher play last season and had to listen to complaining A's fans who watched him play last season. I don't know why people are impressed with his stats, but on the field he didn't even look as that good.
125/127 OPS+ the last two seasons might have something to do with it.

TDog
05-31-2008, 04:06 PM
125/127 OPS+ the last two seasons might have something to do with it.

Your reliance on those numbers has something to do with your surprise at Nick Swisher not being a very good hitter.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 04:15 PM
Your reliance on those numbers has something to do with your surprise at Nick Swisher not being a very good hitter.
And despite his "not being a very good hitter", he posted those numbers.

Edit: While I use numbers, you cite the fact that Oakland's fans bitched about him. We have fans that think the Thome/Rowand trade ruined a dynasty. I wouldn't be too reliant on fan testimonial when evaluating a baseball player.

The Immigrant
05-31-2008, 04:17 PM
Can he turn it around? Perhaps. But I am starting to get way too suspiscous about him being that him coming from the Bay Area. Decline in numbers last year and now complete free fall this year.

Way to be subtle there, big guy. :rolleyes:

munchman33
05-31-2008, 04:21 PM
Well I'm glad you have him figured out. Lord knows there's never been a player in the history of the game who played below expectations for two months.

Speaking of, I sure am glad we got rid of Konerko after 2003. What a piece of **** he was.

That's hardly an apt comparison. Konerko was a way better player pre-2003 than Swisher has been in his career.

People here had lofty (and unfounded) expectations for Swisher. They pointed to a track record and the fact that he's entering his prime. But his track record? Nothing about it screams superstar. Plenty of guys are slightly productive when they're younger and then fizzle out. It's time to start entertaining the notion that Swisher just isn't very good.

TDog
05-31-2008, 04:22 PM
And despite his "not being a very good hitter", he posted those numbers.

Edit: While I use numbers, you cite the fact that Oakland's fans bitched about him. We have fans that think the Thome/Rowand trade ruined a dynasty. I wouldn't be too reliant on fan testimonial when evaluating a baseball player.

You don't have to be a good hitter to post numbers.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 04:23 PM
That's hardly an apt comparison. Konerko was a way better player pre-2003 than Swisher has been in his career.

People here had lofty (and unfounded) expectations for Swisher. They pointed to a track record and the fact that he's entering his prime. But his track record? Nothing about it screams superstar. Plenty of guys are slightly productive when they're younger and then fizzle out. It's time to start entertaining the notion that Swisher just isn't very good.
Konerko never posted a higher OPS+ than Swisher (06-07) in the years 1999-2002. So, no.

Secondly, are we really coming to the conclusion that Swisher is garbage based on two months?

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 04:23 PM
You don't have to be a good hitter to post numbers.
Right.

munchman33
05-31-2008, 04:47 PM
Konerko never posted a higher OPS+ than Swisher (06-07) in the years 1999-2002. So, no.

Secondly, are we really coming to the conclusion that Swisher is garbage based on two months?

I don't like OPS+. I'm not saying walks aren't important. But it's not as important as those stats lead you to believe.

Are you comparing Nick Swisher's career with that of Paul Konerko? That OPS+ says Swisher is better should tell you why it's a flawed representation.

Daver
05-31-2008, 04:49 PM
I don't like OPS+. I'm not saying walks aren't important. But it's not as important as those stats lead you to believe.

Are you comparing Nick Swisher's career with that of Paul Konerko? That OPS+ says Swisher is better should tell you why it's a flawed representation.

Those stats work just fine for his fantasy baseball team, so they must be real.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2008, 05:50 PM
Those stats work just fine for his fantasy baseball team, so they must be real.
What's funny about this little one-liner is the usual "fantasy" stats are HR, RBI, BA, R.

Hitmen77
05-31-2008, 06:46 PM
I think Swisher = Cory Snyder, while Cabrera = Steve Sax. :(:

Yes, I agree

Orlando Cabrera = Steve Sax
Nick Swisher = Cory Snyder

Sax was brought in to boost our middle infield and was a total bust. Maybe these last few games indicate that OC will indeed fare better than he's shown so far - we'll see. But, so far, it looks like he's just putting in his time here until free agency. At least we'll get 2 draft picks out of him.

Swisher looks totally lost out there. I know his career BA is low, but it went up each of his 3 full seasons and I was hoping for that trend to continue. I wasn't expecting him to hit .300. But, hit between .260 and .275 with good OBP and ability to hit for power. Right now, I think the Sox should bench him in favor of playing Anderson and Ramirez in CF. I'm not a FOBA or anything, but at least he's giving us more offensively than Swisher has this year.

JB98
05-31-2008, 06:56 PM
Yes, I agree

Orlando Cabrera = Steve Sax
Nick Swisher = Corey Snyder

Sax was brought in to boost our middle infield and was a total bust. Maybe these last few games indicate that OC will indeed fare better than he's shown so far - we'll see. But, so far, it looks like he's just putting in his time here until free agency. At least we'll get 2 draft picks out of him.

Swisher looks totally lost out there. I know his career BA is low, but it went up each of his 3 full seasons and I was hoping for that trend to continue. I wasn't expecting him to hit .300. But, hit between .260 and .275 with good OBP and ability to hit for power. Right now, I think the Sox should bench him in favor of playing Anderson and Ramirez in CF. I'm not a FOBA or anything, but at least he's giving us more offensively than Swisher has this year.

I think we need to give Swisher just a little bit longer. We finally have some home games coming up, and the weather is going to be warmer. We'll see if he snaps out of it in the next few weeks.

My patience with him isn't totally gone, but it's less now than it was a few weeks back. I'm a long-time critic of Anderson's, but even I might call for him to start if Swisher continues to struggle through June.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2008, 08:38 PM
I think we need to give Swisher just a little bit longer.

Oh, I agree that he deserves more time to snap out of it.

munchman33
05-31-2008, 09:39 PM
Oh, I agree that he deserves more time to snap out of it.

Tell that to Javier Vasquez. And Jose Contreras last night. And Danks all freakin' year.

These games count people. Swisher's had plenty of time. If it's really just a slump (which becomes less likely by the day), he can learn to get out of it on the bench. Until then, we're trying to win ballgames here, and he's done nothing but hurt us all year.

JB98
05-31-2008, 09:42 PM
Tell that to Javier Vasquez. And Jose Contreras last night. And Danks all freakin' year.

These games count people. Swisher's had plenty of time. If it's really just a slump (which becomes less likely by the day), he can learn to get out of it on the bench. Until then, we're trying to win ballgames here, and he's done nothing but hurt us all year.

But there is no one on the bench who can reasonably be expected to hit better on an everyday basis.

We've got a stable of proven .220 hitters riding the pine right now.

munchman33
05-31-2008, 09:46 PM
But there is no one on the bench who can reasonably be expected to hit better on an everyday basis.

We've got a stable of proven .220 hitters riding the pine right now.

True, but if you're gonna have a .220 hitting CF, it might as well be the best defensive CF in the league.

I can't believe I'm condoning BA in center. :o:

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2008, 09:46 PM
Konerko never posted a higher OPS+ than Swisher (06-07) in the years 1999-2002. So, no.

Secondly, are we really coming to the conclusion that Swisher is garbage based on two months?
Actually Konerko's OPS was only three points lower than Swisher's best in those years. Konerko also had a higher batting average, SLG%, HRs, doubles and fewer strike outs than Swisher from '99-'02 compared to Swisher '05-'07. So, yes.

Konerko:
BA H 2B 3B HR RBIs SLG OBP OPS+
1999 .294 151 31 4 24 81 .511 .352 116
2000 .298 156 31 1 21 97 .481 .361 111
2001 .282 164 35 0 32 99 .501 .349 119
2002 .304 173 30 0 27 104 .498 .359 124

Swisher:

2005 .236 109 32 1 21 74 .442 .322 101
2006 .254 141 24 2 35 95 .493 .372 125
2007 .262 141 36 1 22 78 .455 .381 127

So Swisher has the edge on Paulie in two categories: walks, and OPS+. And Paulie is a better hitter in, well, every other aspect. But apparently walks and OPS+ are the stats we use to determine a good hitter I guess.

JB98
05-31-2008, 09:51 PM
True, but if you're gonna have a .220 hitting CF, it might as well be the best defensive CF in the league.

I can't believe I'm condoning BA in center. :o:

As I said earlier in the thread, if Swisher struggles through June, I might find myself agreeing with you.

But not just yet. In June, we have home games, warm weather and no excuses. Hit, or take a seat.

munchman33
05-31-2008, 09:57 PM
As I said earlier in the thread, if Swisher struggles through June, I might find myself agreeing with you.

But not just yet. In June, we have home games, warm weather and no excuses. Hit, or take a seat.

What you're asking is dangerous. Any offense and we'd be running away with this thing. The Twins are a young team. And Cleveland is still a good team. Both figure to get better as the year goes on. Why do you want to sit around and wait for them?

JB98
05-31-2008, 10:02 PM
What you're asking is dangerous. Any offense and we'd be running away with this thing. The Twins are a young team. And Cleveland is still a good team. Both figure to get better as the year goes on. Why do you want to sit around and wait for them?

Because I don't believe in the bench players, or the guys at triple-A.

This organization does not have good depth, especially among position players. That's true in the majors and throughout the system as a whole.

We just have to hope the struggling veterans wake up. God knows I'm sick of saying that, but I don't see a reasonable alternative.

peeonwrigley
05-31-2008, 10:05 PM
Nick Swisher = Bad.

He's been a real disappointment.

I'm fine with sitting him until he earns every day playing time.

munchman33
05-31-2008, 10:17 PM
Because I don't believe in the bench players, or the guys at triple-A.

This organization does not have good depth, especially among position players. That's true in the majors and throughout the system as a whole.

We just have to hope the struggling veterans wake up. God knows I'm sick of saying that, but I don't see a reasonable alternative.

But SWISHER IS NOT A STRUGGLING VETERAN. I don't know what you people think he's accomplished in his career to earn some benefit of the doubt, other than bat around .250 for the last three years.

Nick Swisher from last year wasn't even the answer for us. We were banking on him improving. Well, that didn't happen. And he isn't any better than the guys on the bench. Heck, we've got two guys there that can at least play center better than him!

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2008, 10:21 PM
But SWISHER IS NOT A STRUGGLING VETERAN. I don't know what you people think he's accomplished in his career to earn some benefit of the doubt, other than bat around .250 for the last three years.

Nick Swisher from last year wasn't even the answer for us. We were banking on him improving. Well, that didn't happen. And he isn't any better than the guys on the bench. Heck, we've got two guys there that can at least play center better than him!
Swish isn't an elite hitter, but he's a solid hitter at the very least who gets on a lot. Also, I contributed his low BA due to the massive foul ground in Oakland. Perhaps I was wrong?

JB98
05-31-2008, 10:25 PM
But SWISHER IS NOT A STRUGGLING VETERAN. I don't know what you people think he's accomplished in his career to earn some benefit of the doubt, other than bat around .250 for the last three years.

Nick Swisher from last year wasn't even the answer for us. We were banking on him improving. Well, that didn't happen. And he isn't any better than the guys on the bench. Heck, we've got two guys there that can at least play center better than him!

Forget about the batting average. It's the run production. Swisher is producing well below his career norms as far as home runs and RBIs. I don't care if he hits .240. I want 20-25 HRs and 75-80 RBIs. He's done that the previous three years. It's a reasonable expectation. Right now, he ain't getting it done.

If we had somebody I believed in on the bench, I'd support a change. But we don't, so I'm sticking with Swisher. For now. Ask me again in three weeks, and you might get a different answer.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2008, 10:34 PM
Forget about the batting average. It's the run production. Swisher is producing well below his career norms as far as home runs and RBIs. I don't care if he hits .240. I want 20-25 HRs and 75-80 RBIs. He's done that the previous three years. It's a reasonable expectation. Right now, he ain't getting it done.

If we had somebody I believed in on the bench, I'd support a change. But we don't, so I'm sticking with Swisher. For now. Ask me again in three weeks, and you might get a different answer.
I think that right now Anderson is capable of putting up Swisher numbers. I'd like to see how he could do with a spot in the lineup every day for a week or so.

JB98
05-31-2008, 10:43 PM
I think that right now Anderson is capable of putting up Swisher numbers. I'd like to see how he could do with a spot in the lineup every day for a week or so.

I don't believe in Anderson's offense. He had worse ABs than Swisher tonight.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2008, 10:45 PM
I don't believe in Anderson's offense. He had worse ABs than Swisher tonight.
I didn't see the game tonight so I can't argue with that. But at times Anderson has looked fairly good this year. I'd be curious to see what he could do with more consistent starting time. Maybe he might not be able to do anything, maybe he might be able to do a little something. At the very least it gives Swish a break and that might do him a world of good.

JB98
05-31-2008, 10:48 PM
I didn't see the game tonight so I can't argue with that. But at times Anderson has looked fairly good this year. I'd be curious to see what he could do with more consistent starting time. Maybe he might not be able to do anything, maybe he might be able to do a little something. At the very least it gives Swish a break and that might do him a world of good.

As I've said previously tonight, if Swisher still sucks three or four weeks from now, I'll be ready to turn to Anderson.

WhiteSox5187
05-31-2008, 10:51 PM
As I've said previously tonight, if Swisher still sucks three or four weeks from now, I'll be ready to turn to Anderson.
I think Anderson's leash should be shorter than another month. I don't think I'd want to throw Anderson in there in the middle of the pennant race with the deadline right around the corner, that's a lot of pressure for him. I think another week of struggling I might put Anderson in there, maybe not permantly but just to give Swisher a rest. Might be a good idea to do it during interleague play so Swisher could come off the bench as a pinch hitter.

JB98
05-31-2008, 10:57 PM
I think Anderson's leash should be shorter than another month. I don't think I'd want to throw Anderson in there in the middle of the pennant race with the deadline right around the corner, that's a lot of pressure for him. I think another week of struggling I might put Anderson in there, maybe not permantly but just to give Swisher a rest. Might be a good idea to do it during interleague play so Swisher could come off the bench as a pinch hitter.

I don't think there would be that much pressure on Anderson. If he's hitting ninth, he won't be counted upon for much offensively. Basically, if we reach a point where Anderson is playing every day, it will be because we don't think we can get anything offensively out of CF. Therefore, you might as well put the best defense on the field.

voodoochile
06-01-2008, 12:21 AM
Tell that to Javier Vasquez. And Jose Contreras last night. And Danks all freakin' year.

These games count people. Swisher's had plenty of time. If it's really just a slump (which becomes less likely by the day), he can learn to get out of it on the bench. Until then, we're trying to win ballgames here, and he's done nothing but hurt us all year.

Who you gonna put out there who's a definite improvement? BA? Wise?

Maybe Ramierez, but no guarantee he continues to hit if you mess with his head defensively.

munchman33
06-01-2008, 12:48 AM
Who you gonna put out there who's a definite improvement? BA? Wise?

Maybe Ramierez, but no guarantee he continues to hit if you mess with his head defensively.

Yes, all three are upgrades defensively.

I'd move Ramirez there now and tell him that's his permanent spot. But I can understand the argument against that. Still, playing BA gives us a better chance of winning than playig Swisher at this point. We need to start thinking about what's going to win ballgames NOW. Not two months from now. These games count just as much, and right now is our best opportunity to string together a lot of wins.

voodoochile
06-01-2008, 01:00 AM
Yes, all three are upgrades defensively.

I'd move Ramirez there now and tell him that's his permanent spot. But I can understand the argument against that. Still, playing BA gives us a better chance of winning than playig Swisher at this point. We need to start thinking about what's going to win ballgames NOW. Not two months from now. These games count just as much, and right now is our best opportunity to string together a lot of wins.

I disagree. It's a long season. If Ozzie thinks it's best to continue playing Swish and give him a chance to work his way out of this funk than that's fine. His defense isn't costing us that much. It's not like he's Mackowiak. He's a very competent CF. If Swish's glove were actively costing the Sox games on a regular basis and he was hitting this badly, it would be a more obvious decision, but that's simply not the case.

Cuck the Fubs
06-01-2008, 01:02 AM
At this point ( and I'm not a MLB manager ) I think I would sit Thome down against all LHP.

Dye becomes the DH, Swisher goes to RF, BA in center.

I'd let Thome have one more month of at bats against RHP.........if the bombs out then, Konerko becomes your DH against RHP and Swisher plays first.

Out of the 3 of them that are struggling, I think Konerko is the one most likely to bounce back.

LoveYourSuit
06-01-2008, 02:25 AM
Back to the hotel from another night down in Ybor City.... Thank God for this or I would definately have no where to party and drink off my frustrations with this team..... Swisher contines to suck and now in the 9 hole.


I was sitting there at the game tonight thinking, I never knew this team could find another bat in the offseason that would top the crap which is Juan Uribe.... There we land the great Nick Swisher. Unreal

Craig Grebeck
06-01-2008, 02:52 AM
Back to the hotel from another night down in Ybor City.... Thank God for this or I would definately have no where to party and drink off my frustrations with this team..... Swisher contines to suck and now in the 9 hole.


I was sitting there at the game tonight thinking, I never knew this team could find another bat in the offseason that would top the crap which is Juan Uribe.... There we land the great Nick Swisher. Unreal
DFA him!

Frater Perdurabo
06-01-2008, 06:48 AM
At this point ( and I'm not a MLB manager ) I think I would sit Thome down against all LHP.

Dye becomes the DH, Swisher goes to RF, BA in center.

I'd let Thome have one more month of at bats against RHP.........if the bombs out then, Konerko becomes your DH against RHP and Swisher plays first.

Out of the 3 of them that are struggling, I think Konerko is the one most likely to bounce back.

This is completely reasonable. However, I think Konerko brings more defensively as a 1B than Dye does as a DH. So if Thome bombs out against RHP, Dye should be the primary DH. Put Swisher in LF and Quentin in RF.

TDog
06-01-2008, 02:19 PM
Forget about the batting average. It's the run production. Swisher is producing well below his career norms as far as home runs and RBIs. I don't care if he hits .240. I want 20-25 HRs and 75-80 RBIs. He's done that the previous three years. It's a reasonable expectation. Right now, he ain't getting it done. ....

That's not much more than you could expect from a full season of Juan Uribe. Nick Swisher certainly is generating the amount of frustration you would expect from Juan Uribe.

JB98
06-01-2008, 02:27 PM
That's not much more than you could expect from a full season of Juan Uribe. Nick Swisher certainly is generating the amount of frustration you would expect from Juan Uribe.

Well, Swisher should give you a .350-.370 OBP too. That's something you would never get from Uribe.

But, yes, Swisher's performance has been extremely frustrating.

JUribe1989
06-01-2008, 03:01 PM
The difference is Sax was 32 when he came to the Sox while putting up those dismal numbers. Swisher is putting up far worse numbers while he arrived with us 5 years less than that age-wise.

I know it's hard for some people to grasp around here, but Ryan Sweeney is hitting .293 with 2 home runs, 22 RBI and 3 stolen bases in 46 games. Swisher is hitting .201 with 4 home runs, 14 RBI and 1 stolen base in 54 games. It was a bad trade, it happens. I don't know why some people can't admit that.

And if you think Swisher is hitting the ball hard because of Hawk and DJ's ridiculous assessments of what hitting a ball hard is, you're just incorrect. Swisher's not even putting good swings on the ball.

EndemicSox
06-01-2008, 04:18 PM
Great chance to redeem himself here...

or not...what a bum!

That 35 homer season is looking mighty Brady Anderson-esque...

Hope I'm wrong!

How about we simply stay away from Billy Beane in the future...

Stoky44
06-01-2008, 04:22 PM
Great chance to redeem himself here...

or not...what a bum!

Why was TCQ not in to pinch hit for him?

Madvora
06-01-2008, 04:25 PM
Why was TCQ not in to pinch hit for him?
They sent Quentin out to buy a bus ticket for Swisher.

TDog
06-01-2008, 06:06 PM
Well, Swisher should give you a .350-.370 OBP too. That's something you would never get from Uribe.

But, yes, Swisher's performance has been extremely frustrating.

When you come up with runners in scoring position, OBP often doesn't help you. Sacrifice flies lower OBPs while walks, even intentional walks, with first base open and a runner on third will raise OBPs but not help you.

Sometimes good stats are the product of playing winning baseball. Sometimes they are cosmetic.

munchman33
06-01-2008, 07:06 PM
When you come up with runners in scoring position, OBP often doesn't help you. Sacrifice flies lower OBPs while walks, even intentional walks, with first base open and a runner on third will raise OBPs but not help you.

Sometimes good stats are the product of playing winning baseball. Sometimes they are cosmetic.

And this was the point I was trying to make when we acquired Swisher. I hope seeing him consistently walk in late and rbi situations (when he's not making outs) instead of doing something really productive has shown that his value was a bit overblown.

JB98
06-01-2008, 11:19 PM
When you come up with runners in scoring position, OBP often doesn't help you. Sacrifice flies lower OBPs while walks, even intentional walks, with first base open and a runner on third will raise OBPs but not help you.

Sometimes good stats are the product of playing winning baseball. Sometimes they are cosmetic.

I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think Swisher is as poor a hitter as Uribe is.

Swisher appeared to be looking for a walk when he was up there in the 10th inning today. Howell threw him a changeup on 3-2, basically right down the middle. It was like Swisher never had the notion to swing. It was a truly terrible AB, indicative of a hitter with no faith in his own ability right now.

voodoochile
06-01-2008, 11:22 PM
I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think Swisher is as poor a hitter as Uribe is.

Swisher appeared to be looking for a walk when he was up there in the 10th inning today. Howell threw him a changeup on 3-2, basically right down the middle. It was like Swisher never had the notion to swing. It was a truly terrible AB, indicative of a hitter with no faith in his own ability right now.

Yep. Might have been slightly inner half, but Swish's lame attempt to jump back as if it was drastically inside only made him look silly. He clearly didn't want to swing the bat and if that's the case, he shouldn't be playing right now.

KingXerxes
06-01-2008, 11:59 PM
Yep. Might have been slightly inner half, but Swish's lame attempt to jump back as if it was drastically inside only made him look silly. He clearly didn't want to swing the bat and if that's the case, he shouldn't be playing right now.

I agree - SIT HIM.

I cannot fathom what the love affair is with this guy. Let him watch a few games.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2008, 09:58 AM
I agree - SIT HIM.

I cannot fathom what the love affair is with this guy. Let him watch a few games.
He's grindy!

he seems like a great guy, but so was Billy Kotch.

KingXerxes
06-02-2008, 10:10 AM
He's grindy!

he seems like a great guy, but so was Billy Kotch.

He seems like a goof to me. I'm sure he's a lot of fun to be around when winning- but he seems to lack the "Off Switch" when things are not going too well.

soxrme
06-02-2008, 10:59 AM
Why was TCQ not in to pinch hit for him?
Ozzie sleeping:angry:

russ99
06-02-2008, 01:35 PM
Ozzie sleeping:angry:

Ozzie gave Carlos a full day off, no practice, no anything. That way he has 2 days off with the break today, considering we have something like a 13 day stretch upcoming with no days off. I'd doubt Ozzie would break away from that just because multiple hitters couldn't do the job in the 10th inning.

My take on Swisher is that his head isn't there. He's a really proud guy and this überslump is really messing with his psyche. Maybe a few days off would help, but it may also hurt a guy like him more than help him. I'd keep him in and let him work through it.

I'd also like to see him higher in the lineup, in a place he's more used to (with the A's) so there's less pressure and he's a bit more comfortable at the plate. If I were Ozzie, I'd put him at #3 in front of Quentin and behind A.J. or whoever he puts in that point in the lineup Tuesday. He may do better back at leadoff focusing on getting on base, rather than hurting us lower in the lineup where he's having trouble driving runners in.

kingpin_rcs
06-02-2008, 03:30 PM
Ozzie gave Carlos a full day off, no practice, no anything. That way he has 2 days off with the break today, considering we have something like a 13 day stretch upcoming with no days off. I'd doubt Ozzie would break away from that just because multiple hitters couldn't do the job in the 10th inning.

My take on Swisher is that his head isn't there. He's a really proud guy and this überslump is really messing with his psyche. Maybe a few days off would help, but it may also hurt a guy like him more than help him. I'd keep him in and let him work through it.

I'd also like to see him higher in the lineup, in a place he's more used to (with the A's) so there's less pressure and he's a bit more comfortable at the plate. If I were Ozzie, I'd put him at #3 in front of Quentin and behind A.J. or whoever he puts in that point in the lineup Tuesday. He may do better back at leadoff focusing on getting on base, rather than hurting us lower in the lineup where he's having trouble driving runners in.


Swisher in the #3 hole? That's crazy talk!

Foulke You
06-02-2008, 04:50 PM
I agree - SIT HIM.

I cannot fathom what the love affair is with this guy. Let him watch a few games.
Swisher has 78 HRs and 247 RBIs combined in the last 3 seasons playing in a pitchers park. I'm not ready to just give up on him completely like some on this board. I think his past offensive output deserves some leeway to allow him to adjust to his new surroundings. Konerko looked incredibly useless in 2003 but turned it around in the 2nd half of that year and then rebounded in '04 and '05. Dye started off pretty weak in '05 after coming from Oakland and rebounded to have a solid year. I'm hoping for a similar turnaround for Swisher. I really believe this is just a terrible slump that he is in and not that Swisher has declined. The guy is not right mentally and his pressing in every AB much like Konerko was doing in '03. If he is still hitting this poorly by the all star break, then the Sox have a tough decision to make about him. I think he should at least be given until then to snap out of this funk.

russ99
06-02-2008, 05:40 PM
Swisher in the #3 hole? That's crazy talk!

Isn't that where he hit with Oakland the last 3 years?? I'm just saying a little familiarity would go a long way with Nick, since he looks completely lost where he's at now...

Foulke You
06-02-2008, 05:49 PM
Isn't that where he hit with Oakland the last 3 years?? I'm just saying a little familiarity would go a long way with Nick, since he looks completely lost where he's at now...
I wouldn't touch Carlos Quentin in that 3 hole right now. Leave him right where he is. I'm all for getting Swisher out of his funk but I think putting him in the 3 hole would put even more of a burden on him to produce and right now, Swish needs as little to think about at the plate as possible.

KingXerxes
06-02-2008, 09:21 PM
Swisher has 78 HRs and 247 RBIs combined in the last 3 seasons playing in a pitchers park. I'm not ready to just give up on him completely like some on this board. I think his past offensive output deserves some leeway to allow him to adjust to his new surroundings. Konerko looked incredibly useless in 2003 but turned it around in the 2nd half of that year and then rebounded in '04 and '05. Dye started off pretty weak in '05 after coming from Oakland and rebounded to have a solid year. I'm hoping for a similar turnaround for Swisher. I really believe this is just a terrible slump that he is in and not that Swisher has declined. The guy is not right mentally and his pressing in every AB much like Konerko was doing in '03. If he is still hitting this poorly by the all star break, then the Sox have a tough decision to make about him. I think he should at least be given until then to snap out of this funk.

I don't think the White Sox should cut him loose, I just think they need to sit him for a few days. Obviously he's not as bad as he's been showing - but he has just stunk it up at the plate for quite a while now. Give him some time off and let him straighten his head out (or whatever is causing him to not hit).

whitesox901
06-02-2008, 09:23 PM
I don't think the White Sox should cut him loose, I just think they need to sit him for a few days. Obviously he's not as bad as he's been showing - but he has just stunk it up at the plate for quite a while now. Give him some time off and let him straighten his head out (or whatever is causing him to not hit).



OFF WITH HIS HEAD!