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chisoxfanatic
05-29-2008, 08:27 PM
I know Crede's made some spectacular plays this season; but, he already has 11 errors, and we're not even to June yet. He had another error just this past inning that Thornton was fortunately able to pitch over without any damage. I don't know if Crede's having lingering back problems that he's playing through or something; but, he's usually much better than this, and I'm getting a little concerned!

Noneck
05-29-2008, 08:52 PM
I have been wondering the same thing. I just wish Melton would address this since he was a 3rd baseman with back problems.

JB98
05-29-2008, 09:00 PM
I know Crede's made some spectacular plays this season; but, he already has 11 errors, and we're not even to June yet. He had another error just this past inning that Thornton was fortunately able to pitch over without any damage. I don't know if Crede's having lingering back problems that he's playing through or something; but, he's usually much better than this, and I'm getting a little concerned!

I don't have the numbers to back this up, but it seems to me the majority of his errors have been the result of poor throws. I'm not sure if the back problems are leading to those issues.

Crede has butchered some routine plays. It is maddening.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2008, 09:25 PM
What the hell is this all about???

:?:

Lip

oeo
05-29-2008, 09:27 PM
I don't think it has to do with the back, just a bad arm slot on the throws. A-Rod (aka E-Rod) had the same problem a couple of years ago.

He needs to get it fixed ASAP.

Daver
05-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Using errors to judge defense is absurd, to say the very least.

dickallen15
05-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Tonight Crede saved a run with his defense. His error didn't result in anything but extra pitches for Danks. 11 errors is a lot, but Robin Ventura had 10 errors his first 10 games in 1995 and won GGs after that. He'll be fine.

JB98
05-29-2008, 09:27 PM
Crede in 2005: 10 errors
Crede in 2006: 10 errors
Forget 2007; he was hurt
Crede in 2008: 11 errors already :o:

CLR01
05-29-2008, 09:27 PM
What the hell is this all about???

:?:

Lip


Crede's defense it looks like.


:redneck

:wink:

oeo
05-29-2008, 09:28 PM
Using errors to judge defense is absurd, to say the very least.

When he's throwing the ball away at an insane rate (on routine plays mind you), then it's perfectly fine.

He had two huge errors with two outs in that Toronto series which accounted for 5 runs, and in the end, two losses. He has not been good defensively, and in this case you can use the errors as evidence to that.

Daver
05-29-2008, 09:30 PM
When he's throwing the ball away at an insane rate (on routine plays mind you), then it's perfectly fine.

No it isn't, it is still absurd.

oeo
05-29-2008, 09:32 PM
No it isn't, it is still absurd.

What's absurd is you trying to defend 11 errors in 50 games. It's bad no matter how you want to look at it.

kitekrazy
05-29-2008, 09:33 PM
What the hell is this all about???

:?:

Lip

Get with the program. We are suppose to act like this team is 10 games under .500 and in last place.

Daver
05-29-2008, 09:35 PM
What's absurd is you trying to defend 11 errors in 50 games. It's bad no matter how you want to look at it.

I'm not defending anything, I'm merely pointing out judging defense on errors is absurd, and only a fool would do it. You can choose where you stand for yourself.

October26
05-29-2008, 09:35 PM
I like the poster who said "Crede giveth and Crede taketh away." Am I happy that Crede has 11 errros so far this year? No. Am I going to wring my hands over this? Absolutely not.

itsnotrequired
05-29-2008, 09:37 PM
Crede's errors have a leading role in that Sex and The City movie.

ChiSox89
05-29-2008, 09:37 PM
I also am concerned with those 11 errors but hey, the runner didn't score and he hit a homerun to make up for. As long as the errors don't come around to score i don't care how many errors are made.

oeo
05-29-2008, 09:39 PM
I'm not defending anything, I'm merely pointing out judging defense on errors is absurd, and only a fool would do it. You can choose where you stand for yourself.

I'm not basing my opinion solely on the errors, but instead by watching him look so terrible throwing the ball. Still, 11 errors in 50 games = bad defense, period. I agree that errors are a bad way of judging a defender most of the time, but when there's a large number of them in such a short amount of time, that opinion changes.

BRDSR
05-29-2008, 09:40 PM
Using errors to judge defense is absurd, to say the very least.

Tell that to the pitchers that have had to get four outs in 11 different innings this year.

Using errors to judge how good someone is one defense is absurd...using them to show that they're having an uncharacteristically bad year on defense is not.

It could be a fluke. But Crede was making the same errors in spring training, and if you're not Chuck Knaubloch (sp?), throwing is not something that generally gets worse with age. I would say that it's a lingering back thing, but I would expect to see signs of that at the plate as well, and I can't say that I have. I don't know what it is.

Daver
05-29-2008, 09:41 PM
I'm not basing my opinion solely on the errors, but instead by watching him look so terrible throwing the ball. Still, 11 errors in 50 games = bad defense, period. I agree that errors are a bad way of judging a defender most of the time, but when there's a large number of them in such a short amount of time, that opinion changes.

How many hits has he taken away to offset the errors? That is what you judge, throwing errors after a year off are a very small concern unless your fantasy baseball league has a slot for errors.

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 09:43 PM
Using errors to judge defense is absurd, to say the very least.

I tend to agree, in terms of a lack of error.

But when a guy has 10 errors, that is 10 plays he has botched. Now, that doesn't mean he's worse than someone with 0 errors--in fact he could still be better.

But it is testament that Crede has at least misplayed a significant amount of balls

Daver
05-29-2008, 09:44 PM
Tell that to the pitchers that have had to get four outs in 11 different innings this year.

Using errors to judge how good someone is one defense is absurd...using them to show that they're having an uncharacteristically bad year on defense is not.

It could be a fluke. But Crede was making the same errors in spring training, and if you're not Chuck Knaubloch (sp?), throwing is not something that generally gets worse with age. I would say that it's a lingering back thing, but I would expect to see signs of that at the plate as well, and I can't say that I have. I don't know what it is.

Do the pitchers get piled on for the games that they give up ten runs and make the defense stay on the field for an hour?

Fool.

itsnotrequired
05-29-2008, 09:45 PM
The Daver was angry that day, my friends...

kitekrazy
05-29-2008, 09:46 PM
Let's see what happens if Josh Fields replaces him? Ugh!

chisoxfanatic
05-29-2008, 09:49 PM
Let's see what happens if Josh Fields replaces him? Ugh!
I'm not saying Fields needs to replace him; but, I do think he needs to work on those throwing errors. We're fortunate our pitching has been extremely solid this year to pitch over them.

ondafarm
05-29-2008, 09:59 PM
Crede has made several errors on throws. IIRC all on relatively routine plays, or at least routine for him. Guys get in a bad arm slot and all they can do is work through it. I had one coach who made you do something ridiculous in your drills when you had such a problem. For example, a shortstop in the wrong arm slot was told to try and get the ball into the upper deck all thru infield practice. During the first game after he'd been doing this he made two errors, one off the facade of the upper deck, the other which I as catcher trailing the play just managed to keep from making it into the dugout. But the game after that (and after his regular day off but plenty of extra practice and about 50 balls in the upper deck) his arm slot magically returned to normal.

No, I'm not suggesting Crede try to upper deck ground balls. I am saying its a bit of a funk which he needs to work thru and will. I wish he wasn't doing it and I think he's pressing a bit this season, but these things happen.

Tragg
05-29-2008, 10:20 PM
Never mind - point made by someone above.

Lukin13
05-29-2008, 10:25 PM
No it isn't, it is still absurd.

Errors is nearly important as range in my book, and more important in most minds. Therefore using it as a major factor to measure one's defensive ability would not be absurd.... at all.

JB98
05-29-2008, 10:38 PM
Let's see what happens if Josh Fields replaces him? Ugh!

That would not be good. Crede is still way better than Fields, based on the hits he takes away.

It's just maddening to see Crede make careless errors on routine plays, such as the one in the seventh tonight.

Joe giveth and Joe taketh away, I guess.

BainesHOF
05-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Something is definitely up with Crede. Perhaps it's merely a fielding slump. A player can go through one just like a hitting slump. However, Crede hasn't hit well either since his blazing start.

Perhaps his fielding slump is due to a lapse in focus, but I doubt it. His track record speaks for itself. He's already made as many errors as he usually does in an entire season.

I say his back is giving him trouble. I just don't believe his hitting (he has been fouling off a ton of pitches he used to smack) and fielding troubles are a coincidence. That his slumps have coincided with his recent statements that he's open to re-signing with us in the middle of this season further points to possible back trouble. It would make sense that a person with a bad back would want to sign a long-term contract as soon as possible.

LoveYourSuit
05-29-2008, 10:47 PM
Using errors to judge defense is absurd, to say the very least.


I think it's the magnitude of the errror which we need to be concerned about. Errors in clutch situations are the ones he has not been known for and he has piled on those this year. Tonight was not a clutch/crucial situaiton and that kind of stuff happens here and there. The botch plays when the game is on the line is what scares me and might scare others.

Also the fact that the offense gives the pitching and defense ZERO margin for error is also why we notice these errors even more.

Hit like tonight and pitch it and all will go away without notice.

JB98
05-29-2008, 10:54 PM
Something is definitely up with Crede. Perhaps it's merely a fielding slump. A player can go through one just like a hitting slump. However, Crede hasn't hit well either since his blazing start.

Perhaps his fielding slump is due to a lapse in focus, but I doubt it. His track record speaks for itself. He's already made as many errors as he usually does in an entire season.

I say his back is giving him trouble. I just don't believe his hitting (he has been fouling off a ton of pitches he used to smack) and fielding troubles are a coincidence. That his slumps have coincided with his recent statements that he's open to re-signing with us in the middle of this season further points to possible back trouble. It would make sense that a person with a bad back would want to sign a long-term contract as soon as possible.

I don't share your concern about his hitting. He's had four multihit games in the last 10 days. His .271 batting average and power numbers are just fine, from my perspective.

It's a fielding slump, IMO, and I hope it ends soon.

Daver
05-29-2008, 10:56 PM
Errors is nearly important as range in my book, and more important in most minds. Therefore using it as a major factor to measure one's defensive ability would not be absurd.... at all.

Don't even think about trying to get a job as a baseball scout.

LITTLE NELL
05-30-2008, 04:59 AM
I think we have to cut Crede some slack, the guy came off major back surgery. Its going to take time for him to feel 100%.

Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2008, 06:20 AM
Daver, have you seen any changes in Crede's defense this year compared to before he had the back surgery?

BRDSR
05-30-2008, 07:30 AM
Do the pitchers get piled on for the games that they give up ten runs and make the defense stay on the field for an hour?

Fool.

Yes, they do. Mark Buerhle has taken a lot more grief for his season (and deservedly so) than Joe Crede has.

Fool.

itsnotrequired
05-30-2008, 07:46 AM
Yes, they do. Mark Buerhle has taken a lot more grief for his season (and deservedly so) than Joe Crede has.

Fool.

elephant gun, pencil you in, etc.

Zisk77
05-30-2008, 08:07 AM
Well, he's no Greg Norton :wink:

Konerkoholic
05-30-2008, 08:09 AM
Daver, why are you getting so angry about the possibility that Crede might be having a down year (for him) defensively that you go around insulting people? This strikes me as childish. Also, that giraffe is disturbing.

ondafarm
05-30-2008, 08:09 AM
elephant gun, pencil you in, etc.

Don't waste your time.

jabrch
05-30-2008, 09:31 AM
Crede's glove is still top notch. He has a top notch arm in terms of strength.

There's something he isn't doing right that is causing so many errors - and I am sure it is fixable.

I'd still take Joe over nearly every other 3B in the AL based on WHAT THEY HAVE DONE THIS SEASON SO FAR

The only two guys who have outperformed him this year at that spot are Alex Rodriguez and Alex Gordon.

Sure - if I had a choice I'd take Miguel Cabrerra over him, but Crede has outperformed Miguel this season so far overall.

Joe's few errors this year that he hasn't made in the past look bad. But if you evaluate defense using more than just errors, he is a very good defensive 3B. And if you include his offense, which is good but not great, he's a good fit for his cost.

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2008, 10:07 AM
I've come around on extending Joe -- just not at what he wants. 3 years 27 million is as high as I'd go. He would never take that.

It's just not plausible.

The Immigrant
05-30-2008, 10:13 AM
I've come around on extending Joe -- just not at what he wants. 3 years 27 million is as high as I'd go. He would never take that.

I'm with you. He may not take that offer now, but I'm not so sure he'll do better on the open market.

ode to veeck
05-30-2008, 10:30 AM
What the hell is this all about???

:?:

Lip

When even "glass half empty" Lip (accurately) bemoans a thread, it has to be way beyond normal dark cloudiness, more like the event horizon of the mother black hole dark cloud.

I'll take Crede's D any day at 3rd, and as Daver pointed out, errors aren't anything close to the big picture on D. I'll skip reading the rest of this worthless thread.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2008, 10:35 AM
Ode:

My comment was about some spam that was posted in this thread, not about the thread itself.

-----

And in 1995 Robin Ventura had a horrible (for him) defensive season starting with some errors in the first few games (that the Sox lost, they got off to an 0-4 start if memory serves). He never recovered from it that year but then bounced back in 1996.

Fielders go into slumps just like hitters and I'd say Joe has had some of that this way, it may be in part because of the time missed last season, you get knocked out of your rhythm.

Lip

kitekrazy
05-30-2008, 10:42 AM
I'm with you. He may not take that offer now, but I'm not so sure he'll do better on the open market.

MLB hasn't run out of owners who over pay for free agent's yet.
If the Sox have no options them pay him. I'd over pay for Crede then try to replace him with Fields.

ode to veeck
05-30-2008, 11:22 AM
Ode:

My comment was about some spam that was posted in this thread, not about the thread itself.

-----

And in 1995 Robin Ventura had a horrible (for him) defensive season starting with some errors in the first few games (that the Sox lost, they got off to an 0-4 start if memory serves). He never recovered from it that year but then bounced back in 1996.

Fielders go into slumps just like hitters and I'd say Joe has had some of that this way, it may be in part because of the time missed last season, you get knocked out of your rhythm.

Lip

Exactly, Joe's gonna still be a great 3rd base over the long haul, he's struggled with some throws in the short term, but even then, he's still taking away base hits as he's done throughout his MLB days. The Sox don't currently have a replacement for him at 3rd should his free agency pan out somewhere else. Hopefully Joe will take control of Boras when the time comes to stay with the team he's done so well with.

PatK
05-30-2008, 12:06 PM
I'm worried when those errors cost the Sox games.

I don't think he's had any more game losing/deciding errors than anyone else.

It's just a little disturbing that he's had so many E's this early.

AzureJazzMan
05-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Maybe he would not have nearly as many errors if
he took a page from OC, and called up the press box to reverse them. Damn that Ozzie, he doesn't have anyone's back. :redneck

Carolina Kenny
05-30-2008, 12:24 PM
Joe is playing the only way he can, in order to stay with the team.

Domeshot17
05-30-2008, 12:33 PM
I guess it is fair to say Joe Crede has been Average Defensely from what I take from this thread. He makes the hard plays, and messes up the easy ones. So he is right in the middle.

Personally I think its lack of concentration. IF you watch the errors its throwing and simples ground balls he boots. His back would have the least amount of impact there. He just has been unfocused, taking the easy play off.

The problem is, Crede has been very costly defensively in more games than he has saved defensively. If you pride yourself in being an elite defender, especially when you aren't a top flight offensive force, that can't happen.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2008, 02:00 PM
Ode:

Joe himself has made it very clear in his comments that Scott Boras is his representative and he has no plans to change that.

Lip

Tekijawa
05-30-2008, 02:04 PM
I think blame can be placed on Konerko for at least 3 of those errors off the top of my head... That guy cant pick it at all!

ondafarm
05-30-2008, 02:08 PM
Even ballplayers at their most mercenary care about poor plays on their part which cost their team games. A good player on a championship team is worth more than a good player on a cellar-dweller or a .500 club.

That being said, neither Joe nor Orlando is in pure mercenary role; they both care about their occasional poor play which has cost the White Sox a game. They both take great pride in their defense and the White Sox are a much better team because they are manning the left side of the infield this year. Trust me, the pitchers all know this.

Oldfellah
05-30-2008, 02:43 PM
Mental errors and partially physical, it could take up to a year for him to be back to 110% with him being as active as he is.. I know, I've had his surgery a couple of times. He deserves a break in my opinion!

Stoky44
05-30-2008, 02:48 PM
I think blame can be placed on Konerko for at least 3 of those errors off the top of my head... That guy cant pick it at all!

I think you will be in the minority with that comment. I think PK plays an above avg first base.

jabrch
05-30-2008, 02:49 PM
Defensively speaking - how many AL teams have a left side of the IF that is DEFINITELY better than ours?

I can't think of any...maybe the Yanks? But that is debatable. Seattle? Boston? I can't say any of those are definite...

Tekijawa
05-30-2008, 03:15 PM
I think you will be in the minority with that comment. I think PK plays an above avg first base.

Really? Above average? Are we talking about the same guy? I'm talking about Paul Konerko... :?::scratch:

ondafarm
05-30-2008, 03:19 PM
Defensively speaking - how many AL teams have a left side of the IF that is DEFINITELY better than ours?

I can't think of any...maybe the Yanks? But that is debatable. Seattle? Boston? I can't say any of those are definite...

On defense? Yes, the Sox are definitely top tier.

ondafarm
05-30-2008, 03:20 PM
I think you will be in the minority with that comment. I think PK plays an above avg first base.

I'm not sold on PK being above average.

Stoky44
05-30-2008, 03:21 PM
Using errors to judge defense is absurd, to say the very least.

I'm not defending anything, I'm merely pointing out judging defense on errors is absurd, and only a fool would do it. You can choose where you stand for yourself.

Not trying to get in to this arguement, just found this funny. Thought it would get a laugh, or at least a smile.

Why isn't Aaron Miles being discussed to make the Sox (2002):
Look at response #3. Kind of funny, lol.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15918

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2008, 03:28 PM
Defensively speaking - how many AL teams have a left side of the IF that is DEFINITELY better than ours?

I can't think of any...maybe the Yanks? But that is debatable. Seattle? Boston? I can't say any of those are definite...
Definitely a no on the Yanks -- Jeter is garbage. Seattle and Boston are near us, but I think you can make an argument it's the best left side of the infield in the AL (defensively).

ode to veeck
05-30-2008, 04:08 PM
Ode:

Joe himself has made it very clear in his comments that Scott Boras is his representative and he has no plans to change that.

Lip

I didn't mean at all to imply Joe would switch, but he can bias Boras towards closing with the Sox

ode to veeck
05-30-2008, 04:10 PM
I'm not sold on PK being above average.

Watching him over the last few years, I think he is on D and something to consider when talk rises of moving other bodies there (that might not be as good on D)

Tekijawa
05-30-2008, 04:14 PM
Watching him over the last few years, I think he is on D and something to consider when talk rises of moving other bodies there (that might not be as good on D)

Watching him over the last few games, should get the talk moving a little faster.

Lukin13
05-30-2008, 04:21 PM
Don't even think about trying to get a job as a baseball scout.

What?

I just said that errors can be used as a contributing factor in grading defensive performance... and that most would agree or even go as far as calling them the most important factor.

Drinking heavily last night???

Stoky44
05-30-2008, 04:23 PM
Watching him over the last few games, should get the talk moving a little faster.

You can't judge a guy based on a few of the last games. You could make an arguement about every single player, including HOF, that if you look at these few games he is terrible.

Ok if he is below average name 15-17 MLB first basemen that are better. I would bet PK is in the top 10, above avg.

Daver
05-30-2008, 04:27 PM
What?

I just said that errors can be used as a contributing factor in grading defensive performance... and that most would agree or even go as far as calling them the most important factor.

Drinking heavily last night???


And you're wrong.

BeeBeeRichard
05-30-2008, 04:35 PM
Not trying to get in to this arguement, just found this funny. Thought it would get a laugh, or at least a smile.

Why isn't Aaron Miles being discussed to make the Sox (2002):
Look at response #3. Kind of funny, lol.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15918

Ha ha -- hope you've got your Kevlar on.

Well, it is OK to judge a player's defense on errors when they are committed on minor league fields of inconsistent and questionable quality and you've seen few, if any, of the plays in question. If you're a f-f-f-f-fan.