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View Full Version : Ozzie thinks Thome is "doing what he's always done"


It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 01:46 PM
Ok, count me scared.

I know there are plenty of management yes-men and women. people who only care that we are currently in 1st place, or when we're not, that its still early and we are not mathematically eliminated yet. its only memorial day!!

I also realize there are some _slightly_ more rational people holding onto the belief that MAYBE Thome will figure it out and he's not completely done yet. That may be wishful thinking more than anything, but at least these people understand that Thome is NOT doing well.

However, apparently this is how Thome alway's has been and he's just good and fine. Ozzie is quoted in the tribune : "You look around and he's doing what he's always done. He's got good at-bats."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-26-white-sox-britemay26,1,6292888.story

Good at-bats?? are you out of your ****ing mind Ozzie? Thome is not giving "good at-bats", not even close. How bad does his at-bats have to be before Ozzie notices??

You want to believe he'll get better? Whatever, I'm going to close my eyes when Thome bats so I don't start to cry everytime he leaves men on base in a late and close game. You want to tell me he's CURRENTLY getting good at-bats? I guess its time to question your sanity.

Rockin Robin
05-26-2008, 01:53 PM
Well what's he supposed to say? Is he going to rip him through the media? It's Jim Thome, not some kid who needs a kick in the ass. Jim knows he's struggling, Ozzie knows it, everybody knows it...there's just not much that can be done at the moment. I'm just hoping he snaps out of it, because it's really hard to watch.

turners56
05-26-2008, 01:55 PM
Ozzie isn't going to rip Big Jim. Thome's had way too many bad at bats out there this season, but by Ozzie stabbing Jim in the back by saying "he sucks" isn't the way to make him any better. BTW, he is slated for 31 HRs and 85 RBIs if you project his stats.

champagne030
05-26-2008, 01:56 PM
He's not doing what he "always has".

That said, yesterday was the second game in a row where he came up to bat with two outs, nobody on base and a tight game. The third baseman was about 5 feet off of second base. The captain, manager, somebody, needs to tell him to quit being so selfish and be a team player. He cannot hit his way out of a paper bag and all he needs to do push bunt something on the left side of the diamond and he could walk to first base and maybe, just maybe, if he did that a few times it would force the other team to rethink the shift in those situations. It was good enough for fat Papi and a 'roided up Giambi, why is he above being a team player? It's not like he's tearing the cover off the ball and there's a decent chance he hits one out....

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 01:57 PM
Well what's he supposed to say? Is he going to rip him through the media? It's Jim Thome, not some kid who needs a kick in the ass. Jim knows he's struggling, Ozzie knows it, everybody knows it...there's just not much that can be done at the moment. I'm just hoping he snaps out of it, because it's really hard to watch.

A more rational yet still supportive response would be:
"We need Jim to start giving us some good at-bats. He's an important part of our offense and we need to get him going for the better of the team. He's just not getting it done right now and every game I hope will be the game he turns it around because we NEED him"

That strokes the ego yet doesn't lie to everyone in the western hemisphere.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2008, 02:01 PM
A more rational yet still supportive response would be:
"We need Jim to start giving us some good at-bats. He's an important part of our offense and we need to get him going for the better of the team. He's just not getting it done right now and every game I hope will be the game he turns it around because we NEED him"

That strokes the ego yet doesn't lie to everyone in the western hemisphere.
He's said that too.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 02:03 PM
He's said that too.

Where? link?

hawkjt
05-26-2008, 02:07 PM
It is what a smart manager says when a Thome is in a total funk. Nothing that Ozzie says will fire Jim up or motivate him...he is self-motivated.
Piling on when Jim is in misery is not the answer. Maybe you sit him for a game or two but you do not rant at him thru the press.

As has been said...everyone involved,including the media knows what is going on here. Thome's character is such that he is the one who will step up if he truly thinks he is done and tell ozzie to cut him loose.

I agree it is painful, but dropping him in the order is the next step not calling him out in the media.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 02:17 PM
He's not doing what he "always has".

That said, yesterday was the second game in a row where he came up to bat with two outs, nobody on base and a tight game. The third baseman was about 5 feet off of second base. The captain, manager, somebody, needs to tell him to quit being so selfish and be a team player. He cannot hit his way out of a paper bag and all he needs to do push bunt something on the left side of the diamond and he could walk to first base and maybe, just maybe, if he did that a few times it would force the other team to rethink the shift in those situations. It was good enough for fat Papi and a 'roided up Giambi, why is he above being a team player? It's not like he's tearing the cover off the ball and there's a decent chance he hits one out....

Why do you believe Thome is not being a team player? You think Ozzie is giving bunt signs and Thome is just ignoring him? Get real.

Thome has five bunts in his entire career. Giambi has five as well. Ortiz has eight. These sluggers aren't on teams to put down bunts.

Mr. White Sox
05-26-2008, 02:17 PM
Ok, count me scared.

I'm still not scared at all. The power hasn't disappeared, and his plate discipline is still there. Look at another lefty masher who had a horrific start to the year (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763/gamelog;_ylt=Ap0G6ace9kT0gR3zCEfl0IKFCLcF). Granted, he's younger, but power guys go on streaks and Thome will surely pick it up before long.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 02:21 PM
I'm still not scared at all. The power hasn't disappeared, and his plate discipline is still there. Look at another lefty masher who had a horrific start to the year (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763/gamelog;_ylt=Ap0G6ace9kT0gR3zCEfl0IKFCLcF). Granted, he's younger, but power guys go on streaks and Thome will surely pick it up before long.

Maybe we're hoping on his post all-star game split?

he's not getting any younger, and he shows no signs of coming out of it. My OP is not about whether Thome is going to get it going. (I dont think he will, but I have hope that he will because we'd be better off), but the fact that Ozzie was quoted as saying that this 2 MONTH stretch of Jim's is what "he's always done" and that "he's getting good at-bats". thats just insane.

champagne030
05-26-2008, 02:25 PM
Why do you believe Thome is not being a team player? You think Ozzie is giving bunt signs and Thome is just ignoring him? Get real.

Thome has five bunts in his entire career. Giambi has five as well. Ortiz has eight. These sluggers aren't on teams to put down bunts.

No, I don't think Ozzie is giving him signs and he's ignoring them. He's stroking his ego and not telling him to suck it up for the betterment of the team and that's a mistake, IMO.

I agree that a Thome of the past shouldn't be bunting, but he has no chance at the plate right now and when they're giving you a free pass you're being selfish in not taking that base.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm still not scared at all. The power hasn't disappeared, and his plate discipline is still there. Look at another lefty masher who had a horrific start to the year (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763/gamelog;_ylt=Ap0G6ace9kT0gR3zCEfl0IKFCLcF). Granted, he's younger, but power guys go on streaks and Thome will surely pick it up before long.

Over the last 11 games, Dunn is hitting .424 with 7 HR and 13 RBI. Season average jumped 50 points in that timeframe to .252 which is higher than his career average.

On the other hand, Thome has hit .152 over his last 11 with 2 HR and 3 RBI. Season average fell to .201, the lowest since mid-April. THome has been in a funk the whole season.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 02:33 PM
No, I don't think Ozzie is giving him signs and he's ignoring them. He's stroking his ego and not telling him to suck it up for the betterment of the team and that's a mistake, IMO.

I agree that a Thome of the past shouldn't be bunting, but he has no chance at the plate right now and when they're giving you a free pass you're being selfish in not taking that base.

Thome is the last player that should be accused of "stroking his ego". Where are you getting this from? Did Thome run over your dog or something?

Thome is likely the worst bunter on the team. To expect him to start laying down bunts is absurd.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 02:44 PM
Thome is the last player that should be accused of "stroking his ego". Where are you getting this from? Did Thome run over your dog or something?

Thome is likely the worst bunter on the team. To expect him to start laying down bunts is absurd.

It's not absurd. The odds are Thome is not going to get on base, let alone mash a HR. It wouldn't hurt to simply use an advantage to get on base, especially when Thome is probably not the guy who's going to "get it done" right now.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 02:46 PM
if you're doing what you've always done as you lose bat speed, the results are not going to be what they've always been.

No one would ever praise Mussina, for instance, for doing at 37 what he did at 27

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 02:47 PM
It's not absurd. The odds are Thome is not going to get on base, let alone mash a HR. It wouldn't hurt to simply use an advantage to get on base, especially when Thome is probably not the guy who's going to "get it done" right now.

The let the great bunting experiment begin. Cue the WSI bitch-fest after he fails the first few times.

Noneck
05-26-2008, 02:49 PM
I have said starting last year that Thome appears to be entering the twilight of his career and mostly got blasted. This was because of his meanless September surge. He looks really sad now vs. righties but what are the choices at this point of the season, Fields? I don't want Field here until he becomes the everyday 3rd baseman. Its a bad situation but until a solution becomes available Thomes stays where he is.

DickAllen72
05-26-2008, 02:50 PM
The only thing Thome is currently doing that he's always done is not getting hits in clutch situations late in games. He was always bad like that with the Sox. But at least he used to get big hits/home runs early in games and get on base an awful lot. So far, he's not doing any of that.

I don't know if he's through or not and I still hope he comes around to his normal self. My biggest fear is that once Thome starts hitting again, Ozzie is going to stick him back in the three hole, a spot he has no business at now and really shouldn't have been in the last couple of years.

A "back to normal" Thome would make a good number five hitter on this team.

sullythered
05-26-2008, 02:54 PM
I love all these threads that start with something like, "OMG! <insert player here> is doing awful, and Ozzie said he's doing fine?!?!"

Yes. I think Ozzie should always tell the media that all his players are doing fine. Keep anything even slightly negative behind clubhouse doors. Of course Ozzie knows that Thome is not doing well. He's not blind. I would imagine that he has addressed it in private, and if the time comes, a lineup change may be in order. Ozzie does not owe the media any explanations. As far as what he says in public, I think Ozzie should treat the media like Marky Mark treated the feds in "The Departed," just like a mushroom, "feed 'em ****, and keep 'em in the dark."

Jjav829
05-26-2008, 03:23 PM
The let the great bunting experiment begin. Cue the WSI bitch-fest after he fails the first few times.

The White Sox offense will turn things around and win the World Series based on Jim Thome's bunting.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 03:31 PM
Ha ha. Let's watch him continue to do nothing...

I don't care if he's bunting or poking the ball to the left part of the field. The guy is worthless right now. Yes, it would be nice to have a guy on base in late innings when you're down.

champagne030
05-26-2008, 03:31 PM
Thome is the last player that should be accused of "stroking his ego". Where are you getting this from? Did Thome run over your dog or something?

Thome is likely the worst bunter on the team. To expect him to start laying down bunts is absurd.

Call it stroking his ego or whatever, but not asking him to take what is given is bowing to his career. There would be no beef asking some scrub to take his base, why is he above that other than to massage his mind or asking a future HOF'er to suck it up?

It's not asking him to lay down some decent bunt, all he needs to do is push the bat toward the left side of the diamond. Nobody is suggesting he starts trying to lay down "bunts" for singles with people on base or the infield playing normal. He cannot hit his way on base and isn't getting there via the walk, so taking what is given seems like a pretty good idea. :dunno:

champagne030
05-26-2008, 03:36 PM
The White Sox offense will turn things around and win the World Series based on Jim Thome's bunting.

No, but maybe they win a game because he got on base, didn't give up an AB, and someone behind him got an RBI. The hope is that he turns things around, but until then get yourself on base in any way possible and when they're giving it to you....... :shrug:

SOXSINCE'70
05-26-2008, 03:45 PM
I don't know about the rest of you,but every time he hits into the "Thome Shift",my scalp gets balder.Every strikeout adds
at least 15 years to my life.Is it the pitching?? Is it the fact that Thome turns 38 this year??

To paraphrase the narrator on the old "Batman" tv series:
"For the answer to these and other questions,tune in tomorrow.
Same Sox time,same Sox channel".

Daver
05-26-2008, 03:54 PM
I agree that a Thome of the past shouldn't be bunting, but he has no chance at the plate right now and when they're giving you a free pass you're being selfish in not taking that base.


Am I the only one that finds this hysterical?

champagne030
05-26-2008, 04:05 PM
Am I the only one that finds this hysterical?

Apparently not, but what I don't find hysterical is grabbing some bench when they're giving you a free base.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 04:08 PM
Apparently not, but what I don't find hysterical is grabbing some bench when they're giving you a free base.

No one is giving anyone a free base.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Apparently not, but what I don't find hysterical is grabbing some bench when they're giving you a free base.

You seem to have confused an infield shift with an intentional walk. I can see why--it's an easy mistake to make :rolleyes:

Gavin
05-26-2008, 04:12 PM
You seem to have confused an infield shift with an intentional walk. I can see why--it's an easy mistake to make :rolleyes:

It makes you more correct when you use rolly eyes to punctuate your thought.

champagne030
05-26-2008, 04:13 PM
No one is giving anyone a free base.

Yeah, they really are giving him a free base.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 04:14 PM
I know it was fun to see David Ortiz do this, but come on. A 37 year old slugger doesn't pick up bunting for base hits at this stage of his career. Jim Thome is Selfish?? Give me a break.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 04:19 PM
It makes you more correct when you use rolly eyes to punctuate your thought.

You're confused. I am already correct, the roll eyes just reinforce that.

If you think an infield shift is the same as "giving him a free base" you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

You can protest that if you like, but it won't change the fact.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 04:20 PM
You're confused. I am already correct, the roll eyes just reinforce that.

If you think an infield shift is the same as "giving him a free base" you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

You can protest that if you like, but it won't change the fact.

On internet message boards you need only resort to taking a literal interpretation of figurative speech to prove a point, right?

Actually, every time we have said "Thome has a free base" we probably meant that he would have a much better approach/success rate to getting on base if he poked it down the 3rd base line--this is largely due to the anecdotal/statistical facts that he has completely sucked--at hitting--for any mentionable period of time. I'm sorry that I had to bleed that explanation out for you. Welcome to English and its many applications, some of them more creative than others.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2008, 04:22 PM
Ozzie has always had diarrhea of the mouth. He also is a company man. When any person talks as much as he does, chances are he'll say something stupid more often than the average person.

Here's what I would have said if I were the Sox manager: "Of course, Jim Thome would be the first person to admit he's struggling. He's a HOF player and a fantastic human being and we're all confident he will break out of this slump. This is a question of results, not effort. Jim came to me and told me he plans to spend more time working with videos of his swing and also take extra bating practice. Our hitting coach also has volunteered to spend more time with Jim."

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 04:27 PM
Yeah, they really are giving him a free base.

Maybe Jim should just point to first and walk over there whenever there is a shift.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 04:34 PM
Guys: you have to explicitly tell someone what you mean when you use figurative speech on WSI. Otherwise you're giving them really easy comebacks!

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 04:34 PM
Maybe Jim should just point to first and walk over there whenever there is a shift.

or maybe attempt to go opposite field with a grounder type swing? all he needs is a few basehits down the line and they'll exaggerate the shift less.

the worst part is NOT when there is no one on base. the worst part is when there are men on BASE and they don't move the shift. in some cases, a mere "slap hit to the left" would a) score a run or b) put men in scoring position with less than 2 outs.

None of us have any idea what is being told to Thome, what he is thinking, etc. But its safe to say whatever is currently happening is not working.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 04:38 PM
or maybe attempt to go opposite field with a grounder type swing? all he needs is a few basehits down the line and they'll exaggerate the shift less.

the worst part is NOT when there is no one on base. the worst part is when there are men on BASE and they don't move the shift. in some cases, a mere "slap hit to the left" would a) score a run or b) put men in scoring position with less than 2 outs.

None of us have any idea what is being told to Thome, what he is thinking, etc. But its safe to say whatever is currently happening is not working.

This isn't a video game. Thome can't just press 'X' and hit it to left.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 04:40 PM
Come up with one player who has the shift put on him and he goes the other way. There is a reason the defenses put this shift on.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 04:42 PM
There is a reason the defenses put this shift on.

Yes, it is because they want to give the batter a free base.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 04:44 PM
This isn't a video game. Thome can't just press 'X' and hit it to left.

I guess all the talk about situational hitting is pure bull****. a batter can't hit the ball to the right side to move a man over just by pressing 'X' on the gamepad.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 04:45 PM
Yes, it is because they want to give the batter a free base.

I really should have read the thread before I posted that, thanks for clearing that up for me.:redneck

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 04:46 PM
I guess all the talk about situational hitting is pure bull****. a batter can't hit the ball to the right side to move a man over just by pressing 'X' on the gamepad.

Maybe it is the 'Y' button, I don't play video game baseball.

:shrug:

Gavin
05-26-2008, 04:46 PM
I guess all the talk about situational hitting is pure bull****. a batter can't hit the ball to the right side to move a man over just by pressing 'X' on the gamepad.

You are a propellerhead if you believe that.

Daver
05-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Apparently not, but what I don't find hysterical is grabbing some bench when they're giving you a free base.

What do Sox fans want to see, Thome striking out swinging or striking out trying to lay down a bunt?

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 04:52 PM
Maybe it is the 'Y' button, I don't play video game baseball.

:shrug:

Don't forget about the 'Square' and 'Triangle' buttons. The baseball games on the 360 suck this year.

Seriously, asking someone to hit it opposite field on the ground is not asking them to hit a HR every at bat or any other kind of videogame request. Nor is it a demand they be successful 100% of the time. But you should be able to accomplish it more than 1/5, which is Thome's current rate of getting a hit. His walking shouldnt be affected because we're not asking him to swing out of the zone. We're asking that he attempt to beat an exaggerated shift when it would help the team.

I personally believe Thome is a good enough ballplayer to hit a grounder to the left side. Maybe the people claiming this is asking for videogame production do not. I can tell you one thing, the only time that hitting 'X' and swinging for the HR everytime works is in a VIDEOGAME.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 04:52 PM
What do Sox fans want to see, Thome striking out swinging or striking out trying to lay down a bunt?

How about a hit?

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 04:55 PM
Don't forget about the 'Square' and 'Triangle' buttons. The baseball games on the 360 suck this year.

Seriously, asking someone to hit it opposite field on the ground is not asking them to hit a HR every at bat or any other kind of videogame request. Nor is it a demand they be successful 100% of the time. But you should be able to accomplish it more than 1/5, which is Thome's current rate of getting a hit. His walking shouldnt be affected because we're not asking him to swing out of the zone. We're asking that he attempt to beat an exaggerated shift when it would help the team.

I personally believe Thome is a good enough ballplayer to hit a grounder to the left side. Maybe the people claiming this is asking for videogame production do not. I can tell you one thing, the only time that hitting 'X' and swinging for the HR everytime works is in a VIDEOGAME.

Again tell me a player who consistently beats the shift by going the other way.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 04:56 PM
Seriously, asking someone to hit it opposite field on the ground is not asking them to hit a HR every at bat or any other kind of videogame request. Nor is it a demand they be successful 100% of the time. But you should be able to accomplish it more than 1/5, which is Thome's current rate of getting a hit. His walking shouldnt be affected because we're not asking him to swing out of the zone. We're asking that he attempt to beat an exaggerated shift when it would help the team.

I personally believe Thome is a good enough ballplayer to hit a grounder to the left side. Maybe the people claiming this is asking for videogame production do not. I can tell you one thing, the only time that hitting 'X' and swinging for the HR everytime works is in a VIDEOGAME.

The problem with this is that it forces Thome to learn a new swing. Time spent developing a new swing takes time away from correcting any flaws with his existing swing. But let's say after a couple weeks of sucking trying to develop the new swing, he actually becomes successful at it. What happens now? The shift is taken off and now Thome is stuck with some half-ass check swing that has no power. So now we're back at square one except now Thome has some type of unnatural swing that he will have to "unlearn" to get back on track. Now the season is over and we're all dead.

Daver
05-26-2008, 04:57 PM
How about a hit?

He can't make contact doing what he does best, swing a bat, and you think he is going to able to make contact doing something he rarely does?

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:00 PM
He can't make contact doing what he does best, swing a bat, and you think he is going to able to make contact doing something he rarely does?

I never wanted him to do anything other than swing the bat. I'm not in the "bunt" group, just the hit the opposite way group.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:01 PM
Again tell me a player who consistently beats the shift by going the other way.

Show me a player on a competing team batting .200 with a shift that plays everyday.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:03 PM
On internet message boards you need only resort to taking a literal interpretation of figurative speech to prove a point, right?

Actually, every time we have said "Thome has a free base" we probably meant that he would have a much better approach/success rate to getting on base if he poked it down the 3rd base line--this is largely due to the anecdotal/statistical facts that he has completely sucked--at hitting--for any mentionable period of time. I'm sorry that I had to bleed that explanation out for you. Welcome to English and its many applications, some of them more creative than others.

Hitting to the opposite field is difficult. Laying down a bunt is difficult. Especially for a guy like Thome who doesn't usually hit to the opposite field or bunt.

What about this don't you understand? :rolleyes:

Oh and one more thing:

:rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 05:03 PM
I never wanted him to do anything other than swing the bat. I'm not in the "bunt" group, just the hit the opposite way group.

Bunting and hitting the opposite way are essentially the same thing in that they both require new swings and time to develop them (for a player such as Thome).

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:04 PM
I guess all the talk about situational hitting is pure bull****. a batter can't hit the ball to the right side to move a man over just by pressing 'X' on the gamepad.

Notice how some players are better at situational hitting than other players?

It stands to reason that dead-pull hitters like Thome and Ortiz are not going to be very good situational hitters by virtue of THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DEAD PULL HITTERS

:rolleyes:

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:04 PM
The problem with this is that it forces Thome to learn a new swing. Time spent developing a new swing takes time away from correcting any flaws with his existing swing. But let's say after a couple weeks of sucking trying to develop the new swing, he actually becomes successful at it. What happens now? The shift is taken off and now Thome is stuck with some half-ass check swing that has no power. So now we're back at square one except now Thome has some type of unnatural swing that he will have to "unlearn" to get back on track. Now the season is over and we're all dead.

I'm sorry. This just sounds unbelievable to me. Every other MLB player has multiple swings in his arsenal except Jim Thome? To learn to get a hit to the left side of the infield would take weeks and then ruin any other abilities he's had over a HOF career?

I think Thome is better than that. I guess you don't.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:06 PM
I'm sorry. This just sounds unbelievable to me. Every other MLB player has multiple swings in his arsenal except Jim Thome? To learn to get a hit to the left side of the infield would take weeks and then ruin any other abilities he's had over a HOF career?

I think Thome is better than that. I guess you don't.

Not every player is good at situational hitting.

Power hitters have a very specifically perfected swing. Pull-hitters like Thome are simply NOT VERY GOOD at hitting to the opposite field.

What is so hard to understand about this? It's not JUST Jim Thome. I would suspect nearly every #3 and #4 hitter in baseball is not going to be successful the majority of times when forcing himself to hit the other way

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:07 PM
Notice how some players are better at situational hitting than other players?

It stands to reason that dead-pull hitters like Thome and Ortiz are not going to be very good situational hitters by virtue of THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DEAD PULL HITTERS

:rolleyes:

Ortiz hit the way when he was asked to in Minnesota. I've seen him hit a double the other way against the shift when needed. Most of these guys in BP can do it too. They have the ability.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gavin
05-26-2008, 05:07 PM
Hitting to the opposite field is difficult. Laying down a bunt is difficult. Especially for a guy like Thome who doesn't usually hit to the opposite field or bunt.

What about this don't you understand? :rolleyes:

Oh and one more thing:

:rolleyes:

You know what else is difficult for Jim Thome right now? Getting a hit. Do you disagree?

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry. This just sounds unbelievable to me. Every other MLB player has multiple swings in his arsenal except Jim Thome? To learn to get a hit to the left side of the infield would take weeks and then ruin any other abilities he's had over a HOF career?

I think Thome is better than that. I guess you don't.

:rolling:

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:09 PM
You know what else is difficult for Jim Thome right now? Getting a hit. Do you disagree?

No.

But of these two things what has Thome actually had some success doin in the past

a.) Hitting to the right side of the field
b.) Hitting to the left side of the field

I'll give you a clue: it's a.

He has never had success hitting to the left side of the field. You can't just say "dude, hit it to the left side of the field" because HITTING TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE FIELD IS DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE A DEAD PULL HITTER LIKE THOME

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 05:09 PM
Ortiz hit the way when he was asked to in Minnesota. I've seen him hit a double the other way against the shift when needed. Most of these guys in BP can do it too. They have the ability.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Is this what it is coming down to? Using BP at-bats as a basis for determining a player's hitting abilities?

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:10 PM
Ortiz hit the way when he was asked to in Minnesota. I've seen him hit a double the other way against the shift when needed. Most of these guys in BP can do it too. They have the ability.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

When Ortiz was in Minnesota he wasn't nearly as much of a pull hitter. He also wasn't nearly as good a hitter. This is not a coincidence. There's a reason why these shifts are used against the best hitters in baseball--because tailoring your swing to a dead-pull style of hitting makes you a much more successful hitter. Period. It's not a coincidence that the best situational hitters in a lineup (the #2 hitters) are not particularly great at hitting for average or power.

Now, Thome's doing neither--hitting for average or power--but the answer is not to tell him to do something he sucks at doing in preference of doing something he knows how to do but has been struggling at

Keep talking though. It's funny to see to what extent your cluelessness extends

Daver
05-26-2008, 05:11 PM
Is this what it is coming down to? Using BP at-bats as a basis for determining a player's hitting abilities?


It's as good a stat as simulated games pitched.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 05:11 PM
No.

But of these two things what has Thome actually had some success doin in the past

a.) Hitting to the right side of the field
b.) Hitting to the left side of the field

I'll give you a clue: it's a.

He has never had success hitting to the left side of the field. You can't just say "dude, hit it to the left side of the field" because HITTING TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE FIELD IS DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE A DEAD PULL HITTER LIKE THOME

"What have you done for me lately?" -- That's the whole point. In fact that's why things are changed in the first place.

Anyway, it's pointless to argue on the internet with people who think that little funny GIF files do their arguing for them.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:12 PM
"What have you done for me lately?" -- That's the whole point. In fact that's why things are changed in the first place.

The point is not to teach a guy who's 37 and has had a successful career an ENTIRELY NEW SWING. Clearly you think that's a good idea. You obviously have a clue!


Anyway, it's pointless to argue on the internet with people who thing that little funny GIF files do their arguing for them.:rolleyes: Touche

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 05:12 PM
Show me a player on a competing team batting .200 with a shift that plays everyday.

That is irrelevant. What is relevant is hitters that have this shift put on them are dead pull hitters and that is why the freaking shift is used! I should have spelled it out like Fquaye did in the first place.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 05:13 PM
The point is not to teach a guy who's 37 and has had a successful career an ENTIRELY NEW SWING



:rolleyes: Touche

His current swing blows. Is it the pitching that's different? Is it the stadium? Is it this ****ty weather that Chicago seems to have finally shaken? Or is it Jim ****ing Thome that has changed? Are we not allowed to amend the situation because he's 37?

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:14 PM
When Ortiz was in Minnesota he wasn't nearly as much of a pull hitter. He also wasn't nearly as good a hitter. This is not a coincidence.

Keep talking though. It's funny to see to what extent your cluelessness extends

You said he couldnt do it. Now you said he did it, just not as well. Make up your mind. I guess its easy to be considered clueless by someone who changes their responses post to post.

I'm the clueless one and you think its perfectly acceptable to not try anything different when our DH is hitting .200 near the end of May. OK. I'm clueless to suggest that a MLB player has the ability to hit the opposite field. OK. I'm the clueless one to suggest a HOF caliber player can adjust to the hitting situation. OK.

I'll be out here looking for a clue, professor.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 05:14 PM
I think Thome should become a knuckleball pitcher. If he gets good at it, he could be just as effective and by staying in the AL, he wouldn't have to be a ****ty hitter ever again.

This plan clearly holds water.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:14 PM
His current swing blows. Is it the pitching that's different? Is it the stadium? Is it this ****ty weather that Chicago seems to have finally shaken? Or is it Jim ****ing Thome that has changed? Are we not allowed to amend the situation because he's 37?

So what's your point? He may be past his prime--and I agree that he probably is--but if you think teaching him a new way of swinging after 37 years of doing it another way is going to lead to positive results, you're absolutely insane

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:16 PM
You said he couldnt do it. Now you said he did it, just not as well. Make up your mind. I guess its easy to be considered clueless by someone who changes their responses post to post.

I said he can't do it now. A lot changes when you change your swing and approach. You don't change your swing over a couple of weeks. You change it over seasons and seasons


I'm the clueless one and you think its perfectly acceptable to not try anything different when our DH is hitting .200 near the end of May. OK. I'm clueless to suggest that a MLB player has the ability to hit the opposite field. OK. I'm the clueless one to suggest a HOF caliber player can adjust to the hitting situation. OK.

I think we ought to do something different, absolutely. However, the answer is not to tell a 37 year old veteran to completely change his fundamentals midseason :rolleyes:


I'll be out here looking for a clue, professor.

I doubt you'll find one.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 05:16 PM
His current swing blows. Is it the pitching that's different? Is it the stadium? Is it this ****ty weather that Chicago seems to have finally shaken? Or is it Jim ****ing Thome that has changed? Are we not allowed to amend the situation because he's 37?

The mechanics of his swing seem okay to me. It is the pitches he is deciding to swing at and more than likely, his mindset right now.

Maybe he needs glasses like Pods did back in '05.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:17 PM
The mechanics of his swing seem okay to me. It is the pitches he is deciding to swing at and more than likely, his mindset right now.

Maybe he needs glasses like Pods did back in '05.

WHY DOESN'T THOME START HITTING RIGHT HANDED

OBVIOUSLY HITTING LEFT-HANDED ISN'T WORKING FOR HIM

What do you disagree that he isn't hitting well? Then how can you disagree that he should change to a right-handed hitter?!?!

Gavin
05-26-2008, 05:17 PM
The mechanics of his swing seem okay to me. It is the pitches he is deciding to swing at and more than likely, his mindset right now.

Maybe he needs glasses like Pods did back in '05.

Sorry, I was being figurative again. I wasn't talking about his mechanics, just his plate appearances.

Really?

champagne030
05-26-2008, 05:18 PM
What do Sox fans want to see, Thome striking out swinging or striking out trying to lay down a bunt?

I may, MAY, have caused some confusion to some others with the term bunt. I not asking him to square away and lay one down with the 3rd baseman charging or drag one for a hit. I am suggesting when he gets the offspeed **** on the outer-half, which he gets every AB, that he takes a "butcher boy" swing or push "bunts". There's noway he's hitting one out if he cannot make contact using that swing.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 05:18 PM
WHY DOESN'T THOME START HITTING RIGHT HANDED

OBVIOUSLY HITTING LEFT-HANDED ISN'T WORKING FOR HIM

What do you disagree that he isn't hitting well? Then how can you disagree that he should change to a right-handed hitter?!?!

Then they would shift to the left side of the field and he is used to hitting it to right field, BRILLIANT!

Gavin
05-26-2008, 05:18 PM
WHY DOESN'T THOME START HITTING RIGHT HANDED

OBVIOUSLY HITTING LEFT-HANDED ISN'T WORKING FOR HIM

What do you disagree that he isn't hitting well? Then how can you disagree that he should change to a right-handed hitter?!?!

Straw man arguments really help to prove your point.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 05:19 PM
Sorry, I was being figurative again. I wasn't talking about his mechanics, just his plate appearances.

Really?

A simple statement such as "his swing blows" can be interpreted many different ways. How was I supposed to figure out what you meant?

Teach me the ways of Internetting...

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:23 PM
Straw man arguments really help to prove your point.

It's not a straw man at all. You're arguing for him to change his swing dramatically.

But good try!

:bandance::bandance::bandance:

Gavin
05-26-2008, 05:24 PM
It's not a straw man at all. You're arguing for him to change his swing dramatically.

But good try!

:bandance::bandance::bandance:

Dude, you just postulated that we were saying he should bat right-handed. And then you trashed "us". GMFAB, troll. :dtroll:

Daver
05-26-2008, 05:26 PM
Dude, you just postulated that we were saying he should bat right-handed. And then you trashed "us". GMFAB, troll. :dtroll:




You're turning into Dusty Baker.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:26 PM
WHY DOESN'T THOME START HITTING RIGHT HANDED

OBVIOUSLY HITTING LEFT-HANDED ISN'T WORKING FOR HIM

What do you disagree that he isn't hitting well? Then how can you disagree that he should change to a right-handed hitter?!?!

Dear Professor,

You have stooped to making arguments full of logical fallacies. While entertaining, it certainly does not make you look smart. Us clueless ones need your guidance.

The OP reported that Ozzie said Thome was doing what he always has done and was getting good at-bats. Do you agree with Ozzie? Do you think its concerning to read?

Thome hits into the shift very often, and is not getting very many hits at all. It seems your belief is that trying to exploit the holes in that strategy is not good baseball because Jim Thome does not have the ability to do so, is that a fair statement?

Is a 37 year old Thome suddenly going to break out of his year long "slump"? As a fan, how should we approach this situation? Simply hope that things change?

-Clueless

champagne030
05-26-2008, 05:26 PM
It's not a straw man at all. You're arguing for him to change his swing dramatically.

But good try!

:bandance::bandance::bandance:

Are you out of your ****ing mind? Nobody is advocating a "dramatic" swing change. To stick out your bat takes about 5 seconds in the cage. A couple of times to get him on base and HOPEFULLY buy time until he starts hitting again.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:28 PM
Are you out of your ****ing mind? Nobody is advocating a "dramatic" swing change. To stick out your bat takes about 5 seconds in the cage. A couple of times to get him on base and HOPEFULLY buy time until he starts hitting again.

No, I'm not out of my ****ing mind.

For a dead-pull hitter like Thome to hit the ball to the opposite field consistently, it would require a dramatic swing change.

For you to say it would take about 5 seconds in the cage shows you have absolutely no idea how the mechanics of hitting work

JB98
05-26-2008, 05:30 PM
Are you out of your ****ing mind? Nobody is advocating a "dramatic" swing change. To stick out your bat takes about 5 seconds in the cage. A couple of times to get him on base and HOPEFULLY buy time until he starts hitting again.

I don't think Thome is ever going to start hitting again by experimenting with a "butcher boy" swing.

My opinion is he should be trying to drive the ball toward the center of the field. But I wasn't a very good hitter when I was young, so what the hell do I know?

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:33 PM
Dear Professor,

You have stooped to making arguments full of logical fallacies. While entertaining, it certainly does not make you look smart. Us clueless ones need your guidance.

It's not a logical fallcy. to have a pull hitter like Thome hit opposite field consistently midseason, you might as well ask him to hit right handed.


The OP reported that Ozzie said Thome was doing what he always has done and was getting good at-bats. Do you agree with Ozzie? Do you think its concerning to read?No. I don't agree with Ozzie. I don't think Ozzie agrees with Ozzie. But that doesn't mean "all Thome has to do is hit da ball to da opposite field"


Thome hits into the shift very often, and is not getting very many hits at all. It seems your belief is that trying to exploit the holes in that strategy is not good baseball because Jim Thome does not have the ability to do so, is that a fair statement? Thome hits into the shift because the shift is based on THE WAY HIS SWING IS SET UP TO HIT THE BALL.

Trying to exploit the holes in that strategy WOULD BE good baseball. However, to expect Thome to hit to the opposite field when his swing is set up to do the exact opposite is not good baseball.


Is a 37 year old Thome suddenly going to break out of his year long "slump"? As a fan, how should we approach this situation? Simply hope that things change? Is he going to break out of it? I don't know. I would say he probably will improve his numbers and hitting slightly, but there's no way to know for sure.

How should we approach this situation? A number of ways are possible:

a.) Platoon Thome
b.) Bench Thome
c.) Let Thome keep hitting and hope he'll return to something approximating his career #'s

The answer, however, is NOT asking someone whose swing is not designed to go the other way to go the other way. At the end of the season, perhaps you work with him to get his swing set up in the offseason to go the other way in 09. But that's not really a concern right now.

I'm hardly a Thome supporter right now. I think he's hurting the team and that something should be done. However, I hardly think asking him to do something he's not capable of doing is the answer

Jerko
05-26-2008, 05:34 PM
Thome IS doing what he's always done; scaring the crap out of me when he comes to the plate. Hope he turns it around but how much time does Ozzie give him? He's not gonna walk as much until he starts hitting again because nobody is afraid to pitch to him anymore. It's a tough cycle.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2008, 05:36 PM
How appropiate is the title of this thread? An argument of whether Thome should start going against what he's always done.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:39 PM
Thank God we have WSIers to think of the revolutionary idea that no one's ever thought of before that if you hit to the left side against the shift you could have a base hit!

If only we could get this information to Ozzie

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:42 PM
It's not a logical fallcy. to have a pull hitter like Thome hit opposite field consistently midseason, you might as well ask him to hit right handed.

No. I don't agree with Ozzie. I don't think Ozzie agrees with Ozzie. But that doesn't mean "all Thome has to do is hit da ball to da opposite field"

Thome hits into the shift because the shift is based on THE WAY HIS SWING IS SET UP TO HIT THE BALL.

Trying to exploit the holes in that strategy WOULD BE good baseball. However, to expect Thome to hit to the opposite field when his swing is set up to do the exact opposite is not good baseball.

Is he going to break out of it? I don't know. I would say he probably will improve his numbers and hitting slightly, but there's no way to know for sure.

How should we approach this situation? A number of ways are possible:

a.) Platoon Thome
b.) Bench Thome
c.) Let Thome keep hitting and hope he'll return to something approximating his career #'s

The answer, however, is NOT asking someone whose swing is not designed to go the other way to go the other way. At the end of the season, perhaps you work with him to get his swing set up in the offseason to go the other way in 09. But that's not really a concern right now.

I'm hardly a Thome supporter right now. I think he's hurting the team and that something should be done. However, I hardly think asking him to do something he's not capable of doing is the answer

Not really sure how to break up the quotes like you did, that something i'd like to know how to do. =)

I was mentioning the fallacy when you were exaggerating one of the poster's points and saying that meant any change, like batting right handed, would be a good idea and then busting that idea down.

I think I just have a fundamental difference of opinion with you and some of the other posters. I think Thome could make enough of an effort, even without succeeding 100% of the time, to hit the other way that would lessen the severity of the shift and allow him to get more hits with his normal swing.

Last season, I saw him hit a double like that. I also saw that later in that game, the defense was still shifted, but not as bad. That helps. I don't think its clueless to suggest that he try to hit the ball that way a bit. the worst thing that happens is that he's out again. like usual. if 8 weeks of working on his normal swing hasn't fixed it, I don't think that taking a few atbats a game and trying to hit it the other way will wreck him any more than he's doing all by himself. In fact, i think that if he could get 1 or 2 hits that way in a single game or series, that might be enough to show he's trying to do it and lessen the severity of the shift so that some of his hard hit balls to the right side aren't easily gobbled up by the 2nd baseman playing short right.

I think that even if you are 100% confident in your opinion, you should attempt to be more sociable than to call other people who disagree (even if they have less "knowledge" than you do), clueless.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 05:49 PM
I think I just have a fundamental difference of opinion with you and some of the other posters. I think Thome could make enough of an effort, even without succeeding 100% of the time, to hit the other way that would lessen the severity of the shift and allow him to get more hits with his normal swing.



Here is why you're clueless:

The infield shift is not a new thing. It's been around since the days of Lou Boudreau--the man for whom the shift was invented. Since then players like Ted Williams and Willie McCovey--hall of famers--have been the subject of the shifts.

The reason? Because no matter how good these players were--and they were incredibly good--their swing was not set up to hit the ball the other way. Technically speaking, balls on the outside part of the plate are "bad balls" for people who hit the ball straight-away to pull, and what makes middle of the order hitters like Williams, Ortiz, Manny, Thome, etc. is that they are not "bad-ball hitters". To ask someone who essentially has their swing set up to get a good pitch and drive it to hit a pitch they never swing at in a way they never swing is to ask them to fail.

In order to succeed hitting against the shift, you have to hit the ball on the ground or on a line hard left of the SS position (where the 3B plays). This is not an easy thing to do against MLB pitching as a hitter who is not set up to hit a ball that way.

And what is the payoff for this? A single. It's simply not something that makes any sense. And it's something that, historically, players who are dead-pull hitters, who have the plate discipline and the swing to be dead pull hitters, have been unable to do.

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter in baseball history, and he wasn't able to take advantage of the shift in such a way (the only time he did he laid down a bunt and beat it out...I really dont' see Thome succeeding like that). What makes you think Thome has what it takes to succeed where Williams knew he was beat?

If all it took for a player to beat the shift was "just concentrating on hitting the ball the other way", then managers wouldn't call the shift, because it would no longer offer an advantage

champagne030
05-26-2008, 05:58 PM
For you to say it would take about 5 seconds in the cage shows you have absolutely no idea how the mechanics of hitting work

Has it really been that long since you picked up a bat? Yikes.

It's Dankerific
05-26-2008, 05:58 PM
Here is why you're clueless:

Technically speaking, balls on the outside part of the plate are "bad balls" for people who hit the ball straight-away to pull, and what makes middle of the order hitters like Williams, Ortiz, Manny, Thome, etc. is that they are not "bad-ball hitters". To ask someone who essentially has their swing set up to get a good pitch and drive it to hit a pitch they never swing at in a way they never swing is to ask them to fail.


And what is the payoff for this? A single. It's simply not something that makes any sense.

Either Jim Thome is swinging at those "bad balls" and missing anyway, or he is swinging at "good pitches" and missing/not driving those too. either is unacceptable.

If he is unable to hit a "good pitch", then it doesnt matter where he is trying to drive it. If he is swinging at the "bad balls" anyway, he could at least attempt to get a "senseless single".

There are plenty of times this season, that with the shift on, a Jim Thome single would have helped the team and he did not deliver anything.

Also, Ted Williams never hit (or not hit) for this long, quite this bad, did he? You tell me one of the best players to play the game, Ted Williams, couldnt beat the shift. I say that a) Ted Williams didn't need to and b) Jim Thome is nowhere near as good as Ted Williams at any point in his career.

Daver
05-26-2008, 06:05 PM
Also, Ted Williams never hit (or not hit) for this long, quite this bad, did he? You tell me one of the best players to play the game, Ted Williams, couldnt beat the shift. I say that a) Ted Williams didn't need to and b) Jim Thome is nowhere near as good as Ted Williams at any point in his career.

You're comparing apples to raspberries, Ted Williams was not a dead pull hitter at any point in his illustrious career.

Gavin
05-26-2008, 06:08 PM
You're comparing apples to raspberries, Ted Williams was not a dead pull hitter at any point in his illustrious career.

He wasn't the one making that comparison. He was responding to it.

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 06:12 PM
He wasn't the one making that comparison. He was responding to it.

fquaye sux

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 06:25 PM
Has it really been that long since you picked up a bat? Yikes.


I wasn't a dead pull hitter when I played ball, and I doubt you were either

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 06:25 PM
You're comparing apples to raspberries, Ted Williams was not a dead pull hitter at any point in his illustrious career.

He was a CF to RF hitter. He didn't hit to LF or LCF

The Dude
05-26-2008, 08:22 PM
This thread is absolutely horrible and filled with typical bull**** ideas from our very knowledgeable WSI posters! As Daver said, most of these ideas are comical. The facts are:

Thome is playing horrible and hopefully can turn it around or else.
Ozzie will and should NEVER call out a veteran player, especially one as great in the clubhouse as Thome.
Asking Thome to bunt is not an option.
INR makes the most sense among the peasants. :tongue:

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 09:02 PM
This thread is absolutely horrible and filled with typical bull**** ideas from our very knowledgeable WSI posters! As Daver said, most of these ideas are comical. The facts are:

Thome is playing horrible and hopefully can turn it around or else.
Ozzie will and should NEVER call out a veteran player, especially one as great in the clubhouse as Thome.
Asking Thome to bunt is not an option.
INR makes the most sense among the peasants. :tongue:

Well, I was on record as saying that this thread wasn't complete until the dude rendered his verdict

Gavin
05-26-2008, 09:04 PM
This thread is absolutely horrible and filled with typical bull**** ideas from our very knowledgeable WSI posters! As Daver said, most of these ideas are comical. The facts are:

1) Thome is playing horrible and hopefully can turn it around or else.
2) Ozzie will and should NEVER call out a veteran player, especially one as great in the clubhouse as Thome.
3) Asking Thome to bunt is not an option.
4) INR makes the most sense among the peasants. :tongue:

1) Never disputed.
2) Never disputed.
3) No one asked him to explicitly bunt, just to put it against the shift.
4) That's cute that you internet friends stay together.

What was your point again?

MetroPD
05-26-2008, 09:30 PM
Thank God we have WSIers to think of the revolutionary idea that no one's ever thought of before that if you hit to the left side against the shift you could have a base hit!

If only we could get this information to Ozzie

No kidding, its not like Thome an experienced vet who's been a top tier professional or anything. Maybe Ozzie should rip Paulie too.

fquaye149
05-26-2008, 09:33 PM
No kidding, its not like Thome an experienced vet who's been a top tier professional or anything.

I love how everyone looks at these shifts and sees open space and thinks to themself "all they have to do is hit it through there and it's a guaranteed hit."

You think that doesn't occur to them? It's just real hard, when all you really know how to do is pull the ball, to hit MLB pitching, who are pitching you to pull, the other way, hard. It's just hard.

Thome knows that there is a huge hole there, and I guarantee if it was something he could do, he'd do it. However, it's not any easier to do that than to get a hit using his regular swing. And despite what some baseball whizzes in this thread say, it's not something about your swing you can cure with a few cuts in the cage.

Thome's swing is something he's learned over the course of his career, and to suggest he make huge adjustments to it midseason is to overlook the fact that hitting 90+ MPH pitches is not a given, even for players like Jim Thome

jabrch
05-26-2008, 09:43 PM
I wonder if some of you have ever managed ANYTHING at all...work, sports teams...anything...

itsnotrequired
05-26-2008, 09:50 PM
I wonder if some of you have ever managed ANYTHING at all...work, sports teams...anything...

I manage my many creams and lotions.

4) That's cute that you internet friends stay together.

The Dude is not enjoyed online or in real life.

The Dude
05-26-2008, 09:57 PM
1) Never disputed.
2) Never disputed.
3) No one asked him to explicitly bunt, just to put it against the shift.
4) That's cute that you internet friends stay together.

What was your point again?

The point was to state the facts as I stated. Also, the secondary point was to rip the idiot ideas and posters in this thread.

With regard to #4, INR is not a friend of mine. However, he is a worthy adversary. :gulp:

The Dude
05-26-2008, 09:59 PM
Well, I was on record as saying that this thread wasn't complete until the dude rendered his verdict

And you are absolutely correct as usual quaye! :bandance:

The Dude
05-26-2008, 10:02 PM
I manage my many creams and lotions.



The Dude is not enjoyed online or in real life.

Well I manage my many ointments and emulsions.

Everyone loves my antics, especially WSIers. :redneck

Gavin
05-26-2008, 10:09 PM
I wonder if some of you have ever managed ANYTHING at all...work, sports teams...anything...

Thanks for joining. Your contribution has been worthwhile. If you'd like to discuss my current managerial responsibilities feel free to shoot me a private message.

:dtroll::dtroll::dtroll:

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2008, 11:02 PM
I wonder if some of you have ever managed ANYTHING at all...work, sports teams...anything...
I often wonder if you ever make the tall descent from your ****ing high horse.

RKMeibalane
05-26-2008, 11:11 PM
I often wonder if you ever make the tall descent from your ****ing high horse.

Is that really necessary?

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2008, 11:14 PM
Is that really necessary?
Is it really necessary for him to come into a thread and **** all over everyone's opinions and insinuate that they have never "managed" anyone?

Gavin
05-26-2008, 11:14 PM
Is that really necessary?

Wow, you're timely.

hi im skot
05-27-2008, 01:26 AM
God, this thread is a riot.

:rolling:

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2008, 07:58 AM
I've seen enough of this crap. But I can't do anything about it. :redneck

sullythered
05-27-2008, 09:43 AM
I wonder if some of you have ever managed ANYTHING at all...work, sports teams...anything...
I manage to get out of bed in the morning. And I still say Ozzie shouldn't talk to the media about negatives.

jabrch
05-27-2008, 10:13 AM
I've seen enough of this crap. But I can't do anything about it. :redneck

HA HA HA!

voodoochile
05-27-2008, 10:22 AM
Meanwhile Jim hit his 10th HR of the year and 3rs in the last 7 days to remain on pace to hit 35+ HR this season.

KenBerryGrab
05-27-2008, 10:25 AM
Meanwhile Jim hit his 10th HR of the year and 3rs in the last 7 days to remain on pace to hit 35+ HR this season.

Never let facts get in the way of a good argument.

RKMeibalane
05-27-2008, 01:46 PM
I've been hoping for a thread like this- endless bitching and complaining. It reminds me of the Jerry Manuel years, and the numerous times I trashed him because of his constant tinkering.

:jerry

*Tinker* *Tinker* *Tinker*

palehozenychicty
05-27-2008, 03:18 PM
I've been hoping for a thread like this- endless bitching and complaining. It reminds me of the Jerry Manuel years, and the numerous times I trashed him because of his constant tinkering.

:jerry

*Tinker* *Tinker* *Tinker*


And to think that he'll be on the steps in Flushing (albeit, on an interim basis) if the Mets don't develop any stones. Wow. Just wow.

Nellie_Fox
05-28-2008, 02:00 AM
Meanwhile Jim hit his 10th HR of the year and 3rs in the last 7 days to remain on pace to hit 35+ HR this season.I know I'm on a rapidly-shrinking island with this opinion, but there is more to baseball than hitting home runs. I'm still giving Thome the benefit of the doubt, but he really needs to do more than hit a home run every few days.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 07:33 AM
I know I'm on a rapidly-shrinking island with this opinion, but there is more to baseball than hitting home runs.

I've got your back on this one, Nellie. I seriously would give my left nut to have a modern day Nellie Fox on this team. Of course, if Nellie Fox was on this team, they'd either trade him for a power hitter or force him to start swinging for the fences.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 10:05 AM
I've got your back on this one, Nellie. I seriously would give my left nut to have a modern day Nellie Fox on this team. Of course, if Nellie Fox was on this team, they'd either trade him for a power hitter or force him to start swinging for the fences.

Thome has never hit like Nellie Fox so expecting him to do so is just as goofy as expecting Nellie Fox to hit a lot of home runs. On the whole, offensive woes are not due to Thome trying to hit home runs but rather non-HR hitters trying to do so.

voodoochile
05-28-2008, 10:53 AM
I know I'm on a rapidly-shrinking island with this opinion, but there is more to baseball than hitting home runs. I'm still giving Thome the benefit of the doubt, but he really needs to do more than hit a home run every few days.

Ideally yes, but if we can at least get that from him, it will at least mitigate the lack of hitting for average.

I think Jim is coming out of it to an extent. He's been making an effort to go with the pitch and has been hitting the other way regularly especially over the last month. That may be a function of how the pitchers are pitching him or it may be a function of his age and not being able to turn as aggressively on the baseball as he used to. Either way, if he continues to hit to LF with authority, it may change the way teams pitch to him and that in turn may result in more pullable pitches.

At the least he is showing some signs of waking up and that would be simply fantastic...

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 11:02 AM
Thome has never hit like Nellie Fox so expecting him to do so is just as goofy as expecting Nellie Fox to hit a lot of home runs.

:?:

Can you show me where I said I want/expect Thome to hit like Nellie Fox?

:?:

For clarity, I'll quote my post here:

I've got your back on this one, Nellie. I seriously would give my left nut to have a modern day Nellie Fox on this team. Of course, if Nellie Fox was on this team, they'd either trade him for a power hitter or force him to start swinging for the fences.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 11:04 AM
:?:

Can you show me where I said I want/expect Thome to hit like Nellie Fox?

:?:

For clarity, I'll quote my post here:

Of course everone would like to have Nellie Fox on the team but this has nothing to do with Thome.

:shrug:

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 11:14 AM
Of course everone would like to have Nellie Fox on the team but this has nothing to do with Thome.

:shrug:

I only brought it up because of the point Nellie (the poster) was making, and the appropriateness of his chosen screen name.

It does have something to do with this team; Thome exemplifies the "HR or nothing" emphasis of this organization's approach to hitting.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 11:31 AM
It does have something to do with this team; Thome exemplifies the "HR or nothing" emphasis of this organization's approach to hitting.

Why is it a problem to have a HR hitter on the team? Essentially every team would like a slugger like Thome (not right now though). A balanced team will have it's speed guys, high OBP guys, slap hitter guys, sluggers, etc.

Pear-Zin-Ski
05-28-2008, 11:55 AM
This isn't a video game. Thome can't just press 'X' and hit it to left.

Thank you....

Is it really that easy to hit the freakin ball where you want to? There are so many factors that play into it...and yeah i know Thome is being paid a crapload to hit the ball under ANY circumstances...but guess what! HE HASN'T BEEN GETTING IT DONE AT ALL!!!!

Which brings us right back to where we were....

Noneck
05-28-2008, 12:48 PM
Why is it a problem to have a HR hitter on the team? Essentially every team would like a slugger like Thome (not right now though).

Teams don't want a guy that just hits homers. Look at Dave Kingman, he had 35 HR's in 86 and never played in the majors again. Thomes stats this year are looking like Kingmans of 86.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 01:00 PM
Teams don't want a guy that just hits homers. Look at Dave Kingman, he had 35 HR's in 86 and never played in the majors again. Thomes stats this year are looking like Kingmans of 86.

Thome doesn't just "hit homers". He has a career .407 OBP, good for eighth among active players (seventh if you consider Bonds retired). Top ten in SLG and OPS as well.

Kingman hit 35 HRs and drove in 94 in 1986. But look at his OBP. The guy couldn't get on base so he pretty much was a HR or nothing guy. Thome is not this kind of player.

Noneck
05-28-2008, 01:07 PM
Kingman hit 35 HRs and drove in 94 in 1986. But look at his OBP. The guy couldn't get on base so he pretty much was a HR or nothing guy. Thome is not this kind of player.

In his career, no. But this year he is sinking to Kingman like levels except he can still draw a walk.

fquaye149
05-28-2008, 01:15 PM
In his career, no. But this year he is sinking to Kingman like levels except he can still draw a walk.

so in other words he is like kingman, only he isn't lacking in the main area where kingman was a liability?

TomBradley72
05-28-2008, 01:16 PM
In his career, no. But this year he is sinking to Kingman like levels except he can still draw a walk.

or Rob Deer.

It kills us even more because we are not a balanced team. He's part of a string of slow footed sluggers (Thome, Konerko, Crede, AJ, Dye to a certain extent) and supposedly high OBP/leader types (Swisher and Cabrera) who are underperforming.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 01:18 PM
In his career, no. But this year he is sinking to Kingman like levels except he can still draw a walk.

Kingman played at Kingman like levels for his whole career. Low average, low walk totals, high strikeout total. Plus he was a jag.

Noneck
05-28-2008, 01:20 PM
so in other words he is like kingman, only he isn't lacking in the main area where kingman was a liability?

No, he is lacking 1 less liability than Kingman had.

fquaye149
05-28-2008, 01:24 PM
No, he is lacking 1 less liability than Kingman had.

Kingman would have been an acceptable player if he could have gotten on base. Not a good player, but a MLB player. Thome is like Kingman, except he can still get on base.

As lousy as Thome's been, his OPS+ is still 100. That's not acceptable for a DH, but that means he's about an average hitter in terms of power and getting on base.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 01:24 PM
No, he is lacking 1 less liability than Kingman had.

Kingman's career average is 45 points lower than Thome's.

Add one more liability to your list.

Noneck
05-28-2008, 01:28 PM
Kingman's career average is 45 points lower than Thome's.

Add one more liability to your list.

I am not talking about career stats, Thome is head and shoulders above Kingman careerwise. Just this year I am talking about.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Why is it a problem to have a HR hitter on the team? Essentially every team would like a slugger like Thome (not right now though). A balanced team will have it's speed guys, high OBP guys, slap hitter guys, sluggers, etc.

This team is not balanced!

There's nothing wrong with a homer, nor is it a problem to have one or even several home run hitters on the team. There is something wrong when the homer is prized over all other skills. There is something wrong when your lineup is filled with guys whose only offensive skill is hitting homers. There is something wrong when the vast majority of your lineup is swinging for the fences much of the time.

Let's turn it around. Why is it a problem to have ONE good contact/spray hitter on the team who can also bunt for hits and sacrifices and has enough bat control to be productive even when he's making outs and has enough speed to steal some bases and go from first to third or second to home on a single to right field? I'm not asking for a lineup filled with contact/spray hitters; I'd be satisfied with ONE!

In the interest of having a balanced lineup, if this team had seven David Ecksteins, I'd trade one to get a Jim Thome or Paul Konerko. Conversely, given that the Sox have a bunch of similar power hitters, I'd trade one to get a speedy contact/spray hitter who hits for decent average and makes productive outs.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2008, 02:44 PM
In the interest of having a balanced lineup, if this team had seven David Ecksteins, I'd trade one to get a Jim Thome or Paul Konerko. Conversely, given that the Sox have a bunch of similar power hitters, I'd trade one to get a speedy contact/spray hitter who hits for decent average and makes productive outs.
This is bull****. If you had seven David Ecksteins (my condolences), no one on earth would trade a Thome or a Konerko for one of them. It would be asinine.

And please don't give me the "what about Pods for Lee?!" nonsense. That was a good trade ONLY because of what followed it (solid free agent signings used with the money saved).

Lip Man 1
05-28-2008, 04:12 PM
Frater:

Very well put.

Lip

RKMeibalane
05-28-2008, 06:02 PM
And to think that he'll be on the steps in Flushing (albeit, on an interim basis) if the Mets don't develop any stones. Wow. Just wow.

I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. Can you imagine what's going to happen with him in charge of a National League team? I wonder how long it's going to take before we see Carlos Delgado end up in CF, after a double-switch gone bad.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 06:07 PM
This is bull****. If you had seven David Ecksteins (my condolences), no one on earth would trade a Thome or a Konerko for one of them. It would be asinine.

And please don't give me the "what about Pods for Lee?!" nonsense. That was a good trade ONLY because of what followed it (solid free agent signings used with the money saved).

As usual, in your haste to discredit me you miss my point entirely. Of course no one would take Eckstein straight up for Paulie or Thome. That's preposterous; you're attacking a straw man.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 06:08 PM
Frater:

Very well put.

Lip

Thanks, Lip. You get it. You don't attack straw men.

RKMeibalane
05-28-2008, 06:18 PM
As usual, in your haste to discredit me you miss my point entirely. Of course no one would take Eckstein straight up for Paulie or Thome. That's preposterous; you're attacking a straw man.

I don't remember who initially said this, but I remember sometime ago that when putting together a lineup, the key is not try to find the best player at each position, but rather, the best player for a specific spot in the batting order. In other words, if you need a number eight hitter, don't try to find an All Star to fill that spot. Find someone who understands how to be an effective hitter from that part of the lineup, and add them to your team.

The Sox seem to have too many players who, as you said, are capable only of hitting home runs. A team loaded with sluggers is great to have when everyone is swinging the bat well, but teams that contend for championships are those that find ways to win even when things aren't going particularly well, and these teams, more often than not, have role players who are capable of doing the little things that put their team over the hump.

While no one would trade Jim Thome for David Eckstein, you raise an interesting point- is a role player like David Eckstein more valuable than a slumping power hitter like Thome? Eckstein will never lead the league in home runs, but he's also less likley to completely bottom out the way that Thome, and several other power hitters have to start the season.

fquaye149
05-28-2008, 06:18 PM
Thanks, Lip. You get it. You don't attack straw men.

Well some might question what relevance your post had to do with the thread in the first place, so perhaps it's understandable why people would try to put your post in the context of the question at hand (i.e. the problems with Thome in the lineup, what to be done with Thome, etc)

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 06:19 PM
This team is not balanced!

There's nothing wrong with a homer, nor is it a problem to have one or even several home run hitters on the team. There is something wrong when the homer is prized over all other skills. There is something wrong when your lineup is filled with guys whose only offensive skill is hitting homers. There is something wrong when the vast majority of your lineup is swinging for the fences much of the time.

Let's turn it around. Why is it a problem to have ONE good contact/spray hitter on the team who can also bunt for hits and sacrifices and has enough bat control to be productive even when he's making outs and has enough speed to steal some bases and go from first to third or second to home on a single to right field? I'm not asking for a lineup filled with contact/spray hitters; I'd be satisfied with ONE!

In the interest of having a balanced lineup, if this team had seven David Ecksteins, I'd trade one to get a Jim Thome or Paul Konerko. Conversely, given that the Sox have a bunch of similar power hitters, I'd trade one to get a speedy contact/spray hitter who hits for decent average and makes productive outs.

I didn't say this team is balanced!

The point is that people shouldn't get worked up that Jim Thome (a player that is essentially only going to give you HR or walks) can't bunt, run, go opposite field, etc. He hasn't done it through his career and shouldn't be trying to do it now. He is here to slug, period.

If people want to get upset about something, get upset that other players that are supposed to do the "little things" aren't getting it done. There should be more threads like "Uribe should stop swinging for the fences" or "Cabrera should bunt more" or "Swisher should shorten his swing" and the like. Threads like "Thome should go opposite field" are worthless.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2008, 06:19 PM
In the interest of having a balanced lineup, if this team had seven David Ecksteins, I'd trade one to get a Jim Thome or Paul Konerko.
What am I missing?

itsnotrequired
05-28-2008, 06:20 PM
Well some might question what relevance your post had to do with the thread in the first place, so perhaps it's understandable why people would try to put your post in the context of the question at hand (i.e. the problems with Thome in the lineup, what to be done with Thome, etc)

Thanks, fquaye. You get it. You don't attack straw donkeys.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 06:23 PM
What am I missing?

This is a ridiculously hypothetical scenario in which I said something that I, as the hypothetical GM of this hypothetical team, would try to do. In no way does it suggest a realistic situation or trade proposal.

RKMeibalane
05-28-2008, 06:26 PM
I didn't say this team is balanced!

The point is that people shouldn't get worked up that Jim Thome (a player that is essentially only going to give you HR or walks) can't bunt, run, go opposite field, etc. He hasn't done it through his career and shouldn't be trying to do it now. He is here to slug, period.

If people want to get upset about something, get upset that other players that are supposed to do the "little things" aren't getting it done. There should be more threads like "Uribe should stop swinging for the fences" or "Cabrera should bunt more" or "Swisher should shorten his swing" and the like. Threads like "Thome should go opposite field" are worthless.

I agree with what you're saying. I think the reason why people tend to focus on Thome's struggles more than other players is because as a middle-of the-order hitter, Thome struggling is more likely to have a detrimental effect on this team's ability to score runs than Uribe slumping. Whether that's right or wrong is something I don't have the answer for, but it's the reality that we're faced with for the time being.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 06:26 PM
I didn't say this team is balanced!

The point is that people shouldn't get worked up that Jim Thome (a player that is essentially only going to give you HR or walks) can't bunt, run, go opposite field, etc. He hasn't done it through his career and shouldn't be trying to do it now. He is here to slug, period.

If people want to get upset about something, get upset that other players that are supposed to do the "little things" aren't getting it done. There should be more threads like "Uribe should stop swinging for the fences" or "Cabrera should bunt more" or "Swisher should shorten his swing" and the like. Threads like "Thome should go opposite field" are worthless.

I agree with everything you write in this post.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2008, 06:27 PM
This is a ridiculously hypothetical scenario in which I said something that I, as the hypothetical GM of this hypothetical team, would try to do. In no way does it suggest a realistic situation or trade proposal.
Fair enough. But...if no GM on earth would accept Eckstein/Slappy McSlap for Thome/Konerko, why should we?

Also -- I guarantee there'd be none of this discussion about vague terms like "offensive balance" if this team was performing at their three year averages. We'd be a powerhouse.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 06:38 PM
I agree with what you're saying. I think the reason why people tend to focus on Thome's struggles more than other players is because as a middle-of the-order hitter, Thome struggling is more likely to have a detrimental effect on this team's ability to score runs than Uribe slumping. Whether that's right or wrong is something I don't have the answer for, but it's the reality that we're faced with for the time being.

Yes. It's frustrating that he's become so all-or-nothing. Just last year he hit .275 with a .973 OPS. He's way off those marks. He'll have to hit well over .300 for the rest of the year to make up for that.

What's even more puzzling is that he hasn't missed many games this year (granted, we still have more interleague games in NL parks left to play), so ostensibly he's not suffering any significant back problems. (Perhaps he has a nagging injury that isn't bad enough to keep him out of the lineup, but nevertheless affects his performance?)

It must be incredibly frustrating for him, too. I feel badly for him, but I'll feel even worse if Ozzie sticks with him and he doesn't turn it around and it costs the Sox a shot at the playoffs.

I really want him to snap out of it and go on a Thome-like tear. But I'm not counting on it simply because of his age. We have to be realistic and accept that it is possible that he might really be near the end.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2008, 06:45 PM
Also -- I guarantee there'd be none of this discussion about vague terms like "offensive balance" if this team was performing at their three year averages. We'd be a powerhouse.

I think a few of us :geezer: might still be worried about the lack of balance even if the Sox sluggers were firing on all cylinders.

Actually, I truly believe that if the Sox had a decent OBP speedster like the 2005 Pods leading off, and a good average/contact/bat control/spray hitter in the #2 hole, that the sluggers would be much more consistent and productive because they would see more fastballs thrown from the stretch by distracted pitchers to distracted hitters.

fquaye149
05-28-2008, 06:51 PM
I agree with what you're saying. I think the reason why people tend to focus on Thome's struggles more than other players is because as a middle-of the-order hitter, Thome struggling is more likely to have a detrimental effect on this team's ability to score runs than Uribe slumping. Whether that's right or wrong is something I don't have the answer for, but it's the reality that we're faced with for the time being.

By struggling, Thome is certainly letting the team down a lot more than, say, OC is.

However, OC can actually fix this a lot easier by changing his approach. Besides adjusting his mental approach, preparation, etc, Thome can't do much else. Shortening up his swing isn't going to help, because he doesn't have the type of swing that will hit to all fields...all shortening his swing can do is keep him from making solid contact. Conversely, Cabrera could probably benefit a lot from shortening up his swing and not trying to hit for power

RKMeibalane
05-28-2008, 06:56 PM
I really want him to snap out of it and go on a Thome-like tear. But I'm not counting on it simply because of his age. We have to be realistic and accept that it is possible that he might really be near the end.

And this something that all of us must keep in mind. Thome may still be capable of solid production, but he may not be able to give the Sox what he gave them in the past. The problem is that the Sox don't necessarily have any other options, and so sticking with Thome is what they should do for now.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2008, 07:26 PM
When you are 36, the "three year average" that has been referred to again may be meaningless.

What you did three years ago when you were younger, with fewer injuries isn't relevant to the here and now.

And I'm not singling out Jim...you can say the same thing for Konerko, A.J., Dye ect.

Three years ago the Sox won the World Series but that really doesn't mean a thing today does it?

What's more important to me then what you did in May of 05 is what are you doing in May of 08.

You can "hope" they rebound but you have to at least consider the possibility that some of these players will never approach the "three year averages" again.

Lip

KyWhiSoxFan
05-28-2008, 07:48 PM
Thome needs more rest. He started the year strong, but as the season has progressed, he just looks old and tired. Let him play four times a week.

And why can't he just hit the ball to the opposite field when they give it to him? Is this some kind of manly test that he won't give in to the shift? When he was hitting well, he hit to all fields much more frequently, especially to left center with power. With the shift on, he has two chances to succeed when he insists of pulling every pitch: Hit it over the fence or take a walk. Given those choices and the results so far, I would rather have Toby Hall up there in his place. (Okay, I'm half kidding.)

itsnotrequired
05-29-2008, 06:28 AM
And why can't he just hit the ball to the opposite field when they give it to him? Is this some kind of manly test that he won't give in to the shift?

Have you even read this thread?

Lip Man 1
05-29-2008, 12:36 PM
Black:

JD is there simply because he's now in his mid 30's.

There's nothing you can do about time.

The overall point that many are making is simply this. In fact these hitters may be on the downside of their careers. This "slump" for some of them has been on going since July 2006. Their lack of hitting is putting enormous pressure on a pitching staff to be letter perfect. That staff has some kids in the starting rotation and we have no idea if they can sustain this excellence for an entire season.

It would behoove everyone if the hitters would start hitting and take some of that pressure off.

The question is, given the track record the past season to season and a half, can they?

We'll see.

Lip

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 12:39 PM
Thome needs more rest. He started the year strong, but as the season has progressed, he just looks old and tired. Let him play four times a week.

And why can't he just hit the ball to the opposite field when they give it to him? Is this some kind of manly test that he won't give in to the shift? When he was hitting well, he hit to all fields much more frequently, especially to left center with power. With the shift on, he has two chances to succeed when he insists of pulling every pitch: Hit it over the fence or take a walk. Given those choices and the results so far, I would rather have Toby Hall up there in his place. (Okay, I'm half kidding.)


Or, you know, hit a line drive to right

Not every hit comes in ground ball form

oeo
05-29-2008, 12:44 PM
The overall point that many are making is simply this. In fact these hitters may be on the downside of their careers. This "slump" for some of them has been on going since July 2006.

This is really not true. Konerko was not terrible all of last year, Thome had a pretty good year, and Dye was great in the second half (after getting his contract extension). In fact, Dye has improved since arriving here, and has become a force at the plate.

I don't believe it for a minute that Konerko, Dye, and AJ are declining this early. Not only are two of them having great seasons, but you don't see this big of a decline in your lower-30s. With Thome, you may have a point, he is getting up there, but he's dropped off too much, too quickly for me to believe it.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2008, 12:52 PM
OEO:

We'll see. Remember my actual posting on this was because of the "three year average" reference that was brought up yet again.

Logic says you are probably not going to get the same results in 2008 that you did in 2005 for a player that's in their mid 30's and three years older. So I don't think it's smart as some have done, to just say "oh if they hit to their three year average they'll be fine."

There comes a point where you just start to lose it, period.

And the joker in all this is Konerko's hand. If that injury doesn't get better this may be the best he can do.

To me the big stunner is Swisher (and to a certain extent Cabrera although it's clear he doesn't want to be here and has more "important" things on his mind.)

Lip