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Viva Magglio
05-03-2002, 08:19 AM
In some corners, barbs are coming at us because we once had Mike Cameron and traded him away. Uh, may I remind those less informed among the Fouth Estate whom we got when we traded Cameron? Some guy named Paul Konerko. I think we WON that trade with the Reds, and the Mariners won the trade of Cameron & Co. for Junior. How stupid can this be?

And I would like to especially mention one Tommy Williams, who gleefully noted that we once had Sammy Sosa and Cameron. I am sick and tired of us being ripped for trading Sam-me away, which was ten years ago. Who's our right fielder now? I would much rather have OUR guy in right rather than that showboating hot dog on the North Side, regardless of the numbers he puts up. Our offense is doing quite fine without that guy. In fact, our offense is doing better than that hot dog's own team is. And at the risk of getting very personal, I would claim that OUR right fielder, if nothing else, is a better human being that the guy at Clark & Addison.

duke of dorwood
05-03-2002, 08:49 AM
I dont regret trading Cameron at all. Sosa bloomed in a mini park with a team with no pressure. That would not have happened here.

FanOf14
05-03-2002, 08:54 AM
Thank you for this post!!! I just walked into work and saw that article in the Trib and was livid. Cameron has a good nite and all of a sudden he is the baseball player ever. Puh-lese. I guess I shouldn't have been all that surprised considering this is the same paper that thinks Sosa is king of baseball.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I dont regret trading Cameron at all. Sosa bloomed in a mini park with a team with no pressure. That would not have happened here.

The Sosa/Bell trade is another one that made both teams better. By the end of 1991, Shammy was completely off the Sox's hitting regimen. Whether letting him swing from the heels was the proper course or not, not even a stupid Cub fan would argue that the guy was killing us with his strikeouts. We're talking about a team that won 94 games in 1990 and was trying to fit the final pieces to a championship puzzle. RF was an obvious place to upgrade in order to win championships .

Pasqua wasn't the answer in '93, but Ellis Burks certainly was in '94. He was FAR BETTER than Sosa, and the Sox won their second-consecutive championship--a concept totally foreign to several generations of Flubbie fans.

Sosa's individual numbers blossomed in the late-90's, but that hardly translated into success in the wins column. The Flubbies backed their way into a tie for the wild-card in '98, and will struggle to stay out of the basement again this season for the fifth time since they got Sosa. Meanwhile the Sox have won a third championship without Sosa, arguably fielding a better ballplayer in right field, Magglio Ordonez.

Sox Fans got what they wanted: championships (though not as large and plentiful as we aspire to).

And Flubs fans got what they wanted: one more reason to get drunk and cut the monkey at Wrigley Field.

Even a complete moron like Phil Rogers ought to be able to figure that out. The man is a complete imbecile.

Iwritecode
05-03-2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


The Sosa/Bell trade is another one that made both teams better. By the end of 1991, Shammy was completely off the Sox's hitting regimen. Whether letting him swing from the heels was the proper course or not, not even a stupid Cub fan would argue that the guy was killing us with his strikeouts. We're talking about a team that won 94 games in 1990 and was trying to fit the final pieces to a championship puzzle. RF was an obvious place to upgrade in order to win championships .

Pasqua wasn't the answer in '93, but Ellis Burks certainly was in '94. He was FAR BETTER than Sosa, and the Sox won their second-consecutive championship--a concept totally foreign to several generations of Flubbie fans.

Sosa's individual numbers blossomed in the late-90's, but that hardly translated into success in the wins column. The Flubbies backed their way into a tie for the wild-card in '98, and will struggle to stay out of the basement again this season for the fifth time since they got Sosa. Meanwhile the Sox have won a third championship without Sosa, arguably fielding a better ballplayer in right field, Magglio Ordonez.

Sox Fans got what they wanted: championships (though not as large and plentiful as we aspire to).

And Flubs fans got what they wanted: one more reason to get drunk and cut the monkey at Wrigley Field.

Even a complete moron like Phil Rogers ought to be able to figure that out. The man is a complete imbecile.

I am going to bookmark this post and bring it up every time some idiot tries to argue that it was a bad idea for us to trade Shammy. Very good explanation. :cool:

HawkDJ
05-03-2002, 05:12 PM
I always liked Mike Cameron and I wish we still had him but Paul Konerko obviously is also a great player. Its a pretty debatable trade but in my opinion I'd rather have Cameron than Konerko because it is much easier to fill 1b than CF. its a close trade no matter how you look at it though.

WinningUgly!
05-03-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!


And I would like to especially mention one Tommy Williams, who gleefully noted that we once had Sammy Sosa and Cameron. I am sick and tired of us being ripped for trading Sam-me away, which was ten years ago. Who's our right fielder now? I would much rather have OUR guy in right rather than that showboating hot dog on the North Side, regardless of the numbers he puts up. Our offense is doing quite fine without that guy. In fact, our offense is doing better than that hot dog's own team is. And at the risk of getting very personal, I would claim that OUR right fielder, if nothing else, is a better human being that the guy at Clark & Addison.

I'd almost rather lose with guys I like (Maggs & Konerko) than win with douche bags like SamME & Cameron. Those 2 aren't exactly sporting WS rings anyway. Sox fans wouldn't put up with a butcher like Sosa in RF for long, even with fat offensive numbers. If he had remained with the Sox & blossomed offensively, like he has on the northside, he'd have gotten shredded by the Chicago media for years because of his huge defensive flaws. They only stroke him now because he's a "lovable loser" Ask Frank.

VeeckAsInWreck
05-03-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Pasqua wasn't the answer in '93, but Ellis Burks certainly was in '94. He was FAR BETTER than Sosa, and the Sox won their second-consecutive championship--a concept totally foreign to several generations of Flubbie fans.


I hate to sound like I'm nit-picking but, Burks was our RF in '93 not '94. Back then in 1994 our RF was good 'ol DJ. Burks left after the '93 season for the light air of Colorado. However the point of you message is quite clear PHG. I agree with you.
As far as this Cameron talk goes, I would still make the trade for Konerko!

pudge
05-03-2002, 07:04 PM
Okay, I have to get in on this one -

Bell did *nothing* to help us win the '93 title, we could have won that with Sosa in the lineup, and the '94 title as well. Bell was injured for much of '93, and was then replaced in the play-offs by BO JACKSON, who K's more than Sosa!! In contrast, Cameron was traded for another up-and-coming star in Konerko, but Sosa was traded for a broken-down vet, who put up mildly impressive numbers the year before in cozy Wrigley. Come on, the Sosa trade was HORRIBLE, and not because he would have hit 70 homers in Comiskey, because he wouldn't, but he would have been much better than his replacement, or anyone else who came after him (with the exception of Magglio... how about Mags in right and Sosa in left right now?). Sammy was still a project at that time, and there was no good reason to give up on him at that point, unless you could get a veteran pitcher or something.

Hey, it's long over, but I thought it was a bad trade the day it happened, and it still is. The best trade was sending Baines to Texas for Sammy and Alvarez. One of Larry Himes' few moments of brillance.

Huisj
05-03-2002, 10:14 PM
Well, Himes had some pretty brilliant draft picks in mcdowell, thomas, and ventura.

Mathew
05-03-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Okay, I have to get in on this one -

Bell did *nothing* to help us win the '93 title, we could have won that with Sosa in the lineup, and the '94 title as well. Bell was injured for much of '93, and was then replaced in the play-offs by BO JACKSON, who K's more than Sosa!! In contrast, Cameron was traded for another up-and-coming star in Konerko, but Sosa was traded for a broken-down vet, who put up mildly impressive numbers the year before in cozy Wrigley. Come on, the Sosa trade was HORRIBLE, and not because he would have hit 70 homers in Comiskey, because he wouldn't, but he would have been much better than his replacement, or anyone else who came after him (with the exception of Magglio... how about Mags in right and Sosa in left right now?). Sammy was still a project at that time, and there was no good reason to give up on him at that point, unless you could get a veteran pitcher or something.

Hey, it's long over, but I thought it was a bad trade the day it happened, and it still is. The best trade was sending Baines to Texas for Sammy and Alvarez. One of Larry Himes' few moments of brillance.


I've always said this when posts of this nature come up, we lost plain and simple. George Bell sucked in the 90's. Sosa sucked too but he was young and Bell wasn't, I hate Sosa more than anyone and I'm glad we still worked it out in the end but as much as I hate Sosa, he is better than George Bell! Cameron is no Paul K end of story.

Tragg
05-03-2002, 11:38 PM
The Sosa deal was bad - bad at the time, and bad now. Not that I want sammy - we could have traded him for some good players instead of a washed up player. We had that Wriniak I think hitting style then - Frank thrived on it, Sosa couldn't hit a lick with it.
As for the Cameron trade, both are good players. Yes, a quality CF is harder to find that a quality 1B. But we got a very good player out of that deal, so it wasn't a bad deal. Chimp and whoever the moron is who announces with him were laughing about the cameron deal tonight - I guess they don't find a 9-17 record too funny.

DVG
05-04-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


If he had remained with the Sox & blossomed offensively, like he has on the northside, he'd have gotten shredded by the Chicago media for years because of his huge defensive flaws. They only stroke him now because he's a "lovable loser" Ask Frank.


Thank you. I have always said that Sosa would not be the loved
and adored media superstar if he was with the Sox. The same
personality traits that he is so beloved for on the North side
would not fly with the media if he were on the South side. I truly
believe that they would holler for his scalp for being a showboat
and Mariotti would be the loudest in screaming that Sosa ought
to be burned at the stake.

I am one fan, though, who believes that the Sosa for Bell trade
was horrible no matter how you try to spin it. Bell was washed
up, period. What I don't like are doltish, idiot bandwagoning Cub
fans who remind us of it. Until they can find a way to reverse
history and prevent the trades of Lou Brock, Rafael Palmiero, the
departure of Greg Maddux, etc, etc, etc; they should just shut up.

As for the media's gloating over the Cameron trade, ignore the
arrogant simpletons. You know they just like to stick it to the Sox
any chance they get. Cameron's night was one of those moments.
When an ex-Cub does well we always get the obligatory weeping
and gnashing of teeth over Cubbie curses and bad luck.

The real hot point with me is that the Sox' biggest tormentors in
the media aren't even from Chicago! They did not grow up here
rooting for the Cubs. Rogers, I believe, is from Texas. Mariotti is
from Pennsylvania. Yet they seem to be bigger Cub fans than
guys like Les Grobstein or Mike Murphy. There is an old saying
that converts to Catholicism often wind up more Catholic than
the pope himself. I guess the same could be said for converts
to Cubism.

doublem23
05-04-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I dont regret trading Cameron at all. Sosa bloomed in a mini park with a team with no pressure. That would not have happened here.

That, and all the "Flintstone's Chewable Vitamins."

ScottyTheSoxFan
05-04-2002, 10:47 AM
If we still had Cameron, it would be likely Ray Durham would be leading off, now do we really want that?

Kilroy
05-04-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


I'd almost rather lose with guys I like (Maggs & Konerko) than win with douche bags like SamME & Cameron.

Hey, when did Cameron turn into a douche-bag? I know Sosa is, but Cameron has never done anything that warrants that, least not that I know of. The only thing I know that he's done has been to play very well against the Sox almost every time he's faced them since he was traded. He slumped a bit in the first 5 games this year, made up for it in the 6th.

As far as Cameron, I've always, from day one said the Sox gave up on him too soon. As far as comparing what we got to what we gave up, that's apples to oranges. Konerko -> better hitter; Cameron -> better defense, stolen base threat.

By the way Tragg, George Bell wasn't exactly washed up when the Sox got him. He was coming off an All-Star season in 91. The numbers he put up in 92 were generally as good as the previous season. He had 25 homers, and 112 rbi (26 more than 91), ect. But he also k'ed 35 more times than the previous year and his average was 30 points lower. He definitely produced for the Sox in 92. 93? Let's try and forget.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-04-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Hey, when did Cameron turn into a douche-bag? I know Sosa is, but Cameron has never done anything that warrants that, least not that I know of. The only thing I know that he's done has been to play very well against the Sox almost every time he's faced them since he was traded. He slumped a bit in the first 5 games this year, made up for it in the 6th....


Interesting... here's a breakdown of the popularity of Sox ballplayers on this message board.

Is there a pattern? Draw your own conclusions.

(limited to ballplayers currently on the team and 1+ seasons with the Sox)

Popular
(nobody wants to lose them)
Mark Buehrle
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Tony Graffanino
Jeff Liefer
Aaron Rowand
Keith Foulke
Gary Glover

Some Critics
(some people want to get rid of them)
Frank Thomas
Ray Durham
Jon Garland
Bob Howry
Antonio Osuna
Jose Valentin

Not Popular
(lots of Sox Fans advocate getting rid of them)
Royce Clayton
Carlos Lee

Spiff
05-04-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Interesting... here's a breakdown of the popularity of Sox ballplayers on this message board.

Is there a pattern? Draw your own conclusions.

(limited to ballplayers currently on the team and 1+ seasons with the Sox)

Popular
(nobody wants to lose them)
Mark Buehrle
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Tony Graffanino
Jeff Liefer
Aaron Rowand
Keith Foulke
Gary Glover


Liefer sucks I don't care if we get rid of him.

OfficerKarkovice
05-04-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


Liefer sucks I don't care if we get rid of him.

Yeah I'm not so sure I'd put Leifer in that catagory, nor Graffanino for that matter.