PDA

View Full Version : Phil Rogers Says we're missing Cameron...


Unregistered
05-03-2002, 12:36 AM
From the Cubune:

MEMORABLE NIGHT POINTS FINGERS AT FORGETTABLE TRADE

Right ballpark. Wrong uniform.

While making history at Comiskey Park—not once, but twice—Mike Cameron reminded the White Sox one more time that they never should have traded him. Neither should the Cincinnati Reds, even though they dealt him for Ken Griffey Jr. But that's another story.

Ron Schueler and Jerry Manuel always knew Cameron could turn into a special player. Yet after investing eight years in Cameron's baseball education, the Sox ran out of patience. They sent him to Cincinnati for first baseman Paul Konerko after the 1998 season.

The persistently pleasant man in the oversized cap was wearing the Seattle Mariners' green road uniform on Thursday night when he became the first player since 1993 to hit four homers in a game, missing a fifth by the width of the warning track in the ninth inning.

Was this the major leagues or backyard Wiffle ball?

"It's like my son when he played his first Little League T-ball game," Cameron said, seeming almost dazed afterward. "That's how I felt. I felt like I was king of the hill tonight."

Cameron, who entered this game against the White Sox in a 4-for-37 slump, tied baseball's single-game homer record. He did it in the first five innings of Seattle's 15-4 victory, with three drives beyond the center-field fence and one into the sparsely populated seats in left field.

After hitting one homer off 6-foot-11-inch rookie Jon Rauch and three off former teammate Jim Parque—who has turned into a highly paid BP pitcher headed back to the minors (13 homers in 302/3 innings this season, including a stint at Triple-A Charlotte)—Cameron found himself in rarefied air. There was time for him to get two more chances at becoming the only man in history to hit five homers in a big-league game.

How unlikely must this have seemed to those in the White Sox dugout? After all, it took Cameron until May 26 to hit his first homer of the season when he played for Manuel in 1998. He didn't get his fourth until June 26. And now he was going for five in three hours?

The Cameron of '98 was a gifted player unsure of his abilities, a .210 hitter playing his way out of town. These days Cameron is as confident as he is muscular. He's riding the wave of a 2001 season in which he signed his first big contract (three years, $15.5 million) and rewarded his team with both an All-Star appearance and a Gold Glove, helping the Mariners win 116 games.

Konerko, who helped the Sox to the 2000 division title, could be headed to his first All-Star Game this season. He's in his fourth season as one of Manuel's most productive hitters, with only Magglio Ordonez providing more consistency in the middle of the lineup.

But should a team trade a center fielder with power, speed and a flair for defensive dramatics for a one-dimensional player? It only makes sense if the team thinks the center fielder isn't going to realize his potential.

Cameron came back to haunt Schueler in the 2000 playoffs, when he scored the winning run in Game 1 of a three-game sweep, and now will forever be remembered for one of baseball's most dramatic homecomings.

Cameron and Bret Boone made history in the first inning, becoming the first teammates to homer twice in the same inning. But that was only the beginning.

Cameron followed the two first-inning homers with another off Parque in the third inning and one more in the fifth. If anyone was ever going to hit five in a game, this seemed like the time.

If only Mike Porzio had let us find out.

When Cameron came to bat in the seventh, looking for baseball's most amazing 5-for-5 night, he took the first pitch for a strike. It turned out to be the first of seven straight Porzio pitches he would take, including a 1-1 pitch that plunked him in the left hip, sending him to first base.

Cameron got one more chance in the ninth, again with the left-handed Porzio on the mound. He fell behind 3-0, then threw a fastball for a called strike.

Cameron fouled back the 3-1 pitch, then connected on 3-2. The ball sailed toward the right-field fence but fell short. Jeff Liefer made a running catch to leave Cameron with a 4-for-5 that still felt like a perfect night.

"This couldn't happen at a better place," he said. "This is the grass I first got a chance to walk on as a major league player. ... It was very, very sweet for me."

Jesus Christ, all of the sudden the guy is a HOF lock. Whatever, i'll take pauly at first and kenny lofton in center over mike "K" Cameron, ANY DAY. Lets not forget Jim Parque served up 3 of those homers...

OfficerKarkovice
05-03-2002, 12:38 AM
Cammy goes 0-fer in this series and he writes an article about what a great deal we got...take it for what it's worth.

kermittheefrog
05-03-2002, 12:41 AM
I've always been in the we never should have traded Cameron camp.

OfficerKarkovice
05-03-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I've always been in the we never should have traded Cameron camp.

Oh I think he is a real good player, but right now if you could have Walnuts or Cameron in a Sox uni who do you pick? I want Konerko.

nut_stock
05-03-2002, 12:49 AM
I want kong!

Unregistered
05-03-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I've always been in the we never should have traded Cameron camp.

Well keeping cameron means no Konerko OR Lofton, and i would rather have those 2 for a hundred different reasons than keep that fool. Cameron at center and what, Leifer at first? Blech, no thanks.

kermittheefrog
05-03-2002, 02:35 AM
I'd take Cameron over Konerko if I had the choice. Cameron had almost an MVP quality season last year and is off to an even better start this season. Who knows how the Sox team would be different if we still had Cameron but if I was faced with the question would I rather have Konerko or Cameron, I'd pick Cameron.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I'd take Cameron over Konerko if I had the choice. Cameron had almost an MVP quality season last year and is off to an even better start this season. Who knows how the Sox team would be different if we still had Cameron but if I was faced with the question would I rather have Konerko or Cameron, I'd pick Cameron.

It's the difference between the value of a ballplayer who plays centerfield and another who plays first base. Cameron is already considered perhaps the best in the league for his position, and Konerko is not. That's because Jason Giambi and several others can't play center field, and neither can Konerko.

If Lofton keeps playing the way he has, the Cameron/Konerko trade worked out better for both teams. I would be satisfied with that.

Otherwise...

duke of dorwood
05-03-2002, 08:51 AM
It's Konerko hands down. He's the middle of the line up hitter we need. Cameron isnt. If Walnuts hit against Parque he'd hit like last night too.

FanOf14
05-03-2002, 08:57 AM
I am so surprised at how many here say they rather have Cam than Konerko. Nerk's numbers are consistantly improving in one stat or another each year he's been here. Cam was in our system for 8 years with little if any improvement. Outside of last night's fiasco, Cam's numbers aren't all that great this year. Konerko hands down is who I'd pick.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2002, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
I am so surprised at how many here say they rather have Cam than Konerko. Nerk's numbers are consistantly improving in one stat or another each year he's been here. Cam was in our system for 8 years with little if any improvement. Outside of last night's fiasco, Cam's numbers aren't all that great this year. Konerko hands down is who I'd pick.

Konerko plays first base. You need MVP-level numbers to be considered a top-drawer firstbasemen, ala Jason Giambi. Even with improvement, Konehead is a long way from that. Still the acquisition of Lofton (for cheap) makes this trade a net-plus for both teams, and I'm satisfied with that. The Sox are a stronger team with Konerko at first AND Lofton in center, than simply Cameron in center.

Please remember, we didn't trade Cameron to Seattle. The Sox did the Konerko deal with Cincinnati, NOT the Mariners. It was the Reds who traded Cameron in the Griffey trade.

So let me toss this bone to the Konerko fans out there: The Mariners AND the Sox came out of their trades far better than did Cincinnati. Junior hasn't done jack for the Reds.

Paulwny
05-03-2002, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

The Mariners AND the Sox came out of their trades far better than did Cincinnati. Junior hasn't done jack for the Reds.


Exactly, the Reds took the hit, player wise and in the pocket book.

moochpuppy
05-03-2002, 09:50 AM
This whole article is sh*t. The guy has one good game and we all of a sudden got screwed on the trade for Konerko? Bullsh*t!!

Konerko (26 years old):
Games: 441
AB: 1619
R: 247
H: 471
2B: 97
3B: 5
HR: 77
RBI: 277
SB: 3
BB: 146
SO: 229
BA: .291
OPS: .854

Cameron (29 years old):
Games: 451
AB: 1625
R: 288
H: 428
2B: 92
3B: 18
HR: 65
RBI: 254
SB: 96
BB: 227
SO: 433
BA: .263
OPS: .820

Pretty close except for speed (Cameron) and plate discipline (Konerko). Give me Konehead any day.

Plus, did you all notice in the article he had to mention attendance? Jackass! I'm done reading any Chicago media for the remainder of the baseball season.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
...Pretty close except for speed (Cameron) and plate discipline (Konerko). Give me Konehead any day.

Look, if Konerko could play center field you would have made a valid point. Of course Konerko can't play center field, that's why you have to compare each ballplayer's stats against others at their own position. Comparing Cameron to other centerfielders makes him a star, and comparing Konerko to other firstbasemen makes him an also-ran. It's not that complicated, people.

Lofton is doing a great job for us in CF; we don't miss Cameron. However, if Singleton or Rowand were playing CF for us, we would have clearly "lost" this trade because Cameron is more valuable than Konerko.

In other words, we can more easily find somebody else to put up numbers at first base like Konerko, than we can find someone to play CF and put up numbers like Mike Cameron. This isn't even debatable. End of story.

Fortunately for us, Lofton has been the steal of the season. That's what has made both teams (Seattle and the Sox) better for "trading" Konerko and Cameron.

If anybody was the loser in this "trade", it was Cincinnati. Count on the Cubune's Phil Rogers to f*ck up the facts, wrongly making Chicago's Sox look as dumb as possible. The man is an imbecile and a unwitting corporate toad.

Is there any other sports team in America that would be maligned this way by their hometown newspaper? Not a chance.

Plus, did you all notice in the article he had to mention attendance? Jackass! I'm done reading any Chicago media for the remainder of the baseball season.

Typical Cubune bullsh*t. They had some moronic staff writer featured on page 1 earlier this week, equating attendance with wins. It's unbelievable how low they will sink.

Iwritecode
05-03-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
This whole article is sh*t. The guy has one good game and we all of a sudden got screwed on the trade for Konerko? Bullsh*t!!

Konerko (26 years old):
Games: 441
SO: 229

Cameron (29 years old):
Games: 451
SO: 433


OMG, I didn't realize that Cameron K'd that much...

Chisox353014
05-03-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Typical Cubune bullsh*t. They had some moronic staff writer featured on page 1 earlier this week, equating attendance with wins. It's unbelievable how low they will sink.

I didn't see that article but I'm curious: what conclusion did they come up with regarding the Flubs? Obviously, if their theory was attendance=wins, the Flubs should be in the post-season every year.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Chisox353014
I didn't see that article but I'm curious: what conclusion did they come up with regarding the Flubs? Obviously, if their theory was attendance=wins, the Flubs should be in the post-season every year.

Some genius (I forget his name because I didn't even bother saving his crappy article), wrote a page 1 piece in the Cubune's sports section making the case that this has been a horrible April for Chicago baseball.

The entire article did nothing but recount all the disasters on the field for the Lovable Losers, and somehow suggesting the first-place Sox were no better because attendance was too low.

Huh? Does the Cubune expect to fly a pennant over Wrigley next October for "best attendance"? Is there some other first-place team in town grabbing all the positive headlines the Cubune has allocated for their sports page? Unf*cking believable.

Nope. There is a first-place team in town, and they are being placed in the same boat with the Cubune's losing baseball subsidiary. That little punk ought to go far in the toady culture at Cubune Tower.

OEO Magglio
05-03-2002, 02:31 PM
That whole article is a joke. I would rather have Konerko to Cameron by a long shot. It's also a joke that what some of you are saying that Konerko is not a star, cause he doesn't put up numbers like Jason Giambi. I believe right now that Konerko would be leading first basemen in Rbi's. Even if that doesn't hold up, you got to realize, Konerko is 26 years old, he is going to keep on getting better. People who say this was a horrible trade for the sox are morons. This was a great trade for the sox, and it always will be. I like Cameron a lot, but he's 29, he is in his prime already, Cameron is not going to get any better, he's going to continue to put up numbers like he's putting up now, Konerko is still going to get better, and if you say Konerko isn't a star because he doesn't put up numbers like Giambi, first of all he had 99 rbi's at 25 years old, and he is a star and will just keep getting better, so if you think he isn't a star your stupid.

CerberusWG
05-03-2002, 03:10 PM
What a stupid article. He feasts on Parque and Rauch, both of whom should be in AAA, and he says we shouldn't have made the trade for Konerko?

Has Sulli noticed that PK is hitting .350 and has 28 RBIs?

Prior to last night Cameron was only hitting .250 and had 12 RBIs.

Semmes to me that'd I'd take Konerko every day over Cameron.

Cheryl
05-03-2002, 03:23 PM
Phil Rogers is a dope.

This is the same sort of reasoning people use when they talk about what a mistake it was to trade Sam Me.

Cameron's a better player with Seattle than he was here. Would he have improved as much if he'd stayed here? Maybe. Probably not.

Chisox353014
05-03-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Some genius (I forget his name because I didn't even bother saving his crappy article), wrote a page 1 piece in the Cubune's sports section making the case that this has been a horrible April for Chicago baseball.

The entire article did nothing but recount all the disasters on the field for the Lovable Losers, and somehow suggesting the first-place Sox were no better because attendance was too low.

Huh? Does the Cubune expect to fly a pennant over Wrigley next October for "best attendance"? Is there some other first-place team in town grabbing all the positive headlines the Cubune has allocated for their sports page? Unf*cking believable.

Nope. There is a first-place team in town, and they are being placed in the same boat with the Cubune's losing baseball subsidiary. That little punk ought to go far in the toady culture at Cubune Tower.

Here is the article in question, by someone named Michael Hirsley (perhaps the pen name of George Knue?): A whole buncha bullcrap (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-0204290235apr29.story?coll=cs%2Dbaseball%2Dprint)

Foulke You
05-03-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
That whole article is a joke. I would rather have Konerko to Cameron by a long shot. It's also a joke that what some of you are saying that Konerko is not a star, cause he doesn't put up numbers like Jason Giambi. I believe right now that Konerko would be leading first basemen in Rbi's. Even if that doesn't hold up, you got to realize, Konerko is 26 years old, he is going to keep on getting better. People who say this was a horrible trade for the sox are morons. This was a great trade for the sox, and it always will be. I like Cameron a lot, but he's 29, he is in his prime already, Cameron is not going to get any better, he's going to continue to put up numbers like he's putting up now, Konerko is still going to get better, and if you say Konerko isn't a star because he doesn't put up numbers like Giambi, first of all he had 99 rbi's at 25 years old, and he is a star and will just keep getting better, so if you think he isn't a star your stupid.

I have to agree. I don't think we've even seen Konerko's best yet. His numbers continue to go up every year. I for one think the Sox are better off with Paulie in the lineup but it is all a matter of opinion. It's not like how the Trib is portraying it as a horrible trade. If the allstar game started today, Konerko is most deserving of AL 1B to start. Is Cameron even in allstar game starter consideration right now? Right now I think you'd have to give Lofton serious consideration as AL starting CF in the allstar game.

It's amazing how homeruns cloud people's judgement on ballplayers. It's the same logic Cub fans use to equate Sammy as being better than Maggs. Sammy hits more zingers therefore he is better. Cameron hit 4 HRs in one night against 79mph Parque meatballs and all of the sudden he is God and "oh what a horrible trade!" Please. Let's keep this in perspective. Paulie is a great 1B and Lofton is a great CF. We don't need Cameron.

sox_fan_forever
05-03-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Chisox353014


Here is the article in question, by someone named Michael Hirsley (perhaps the pen name of George Knue?):

I saw that article the other day...started to read it until I realized it was another one of those attendence articles. :angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
That whole article is a joke. I would rather have Konerko to Cameron by a long shot. It's also a joke that what some of you are saying that Konerko is not a star, cause he doesn't put up numbers like Jason Giambi. I believe right now that Konerko would be leading first basemen in Rbi's. Even if that doesn't hold up, you got to realize, Konerko is 26 years old, he is going to keep on getting better. People who say this was a horrible trade for the sox are morons. This was a great trade for the sox, and it always will be. I like Cameron a lot, but he's 29, he is in his prime already, Cameron is not going to get any better, he's going to continue to put up numbers like he's putting up now, Konerko is still going to get better, and if you say Konerko isn't a star because he doesn't put up numbers like Giambi, first of all he had 99 rbi's at 25 years old, and he is a star and will just keep getting better, so if you think he isn't a star your stupid.

If you feel Konerko will achieve more than Cameron based strictly on age, say so. Unlike Konerko, Cameron is delivering the numbers playing center field, and his value is greater for it.

If you think we've seen the best of Mike Cameron already at 29 years old, say so. Unlike aging firstbasemen, there are plenty of positions for guys who can't cover CF any more.

Just to clarify, I did say we aren't missing Cameron at all. The Sox are a better team with Konerko AND Lofton, than we would be with just Cameron alone.

The point is to win games. Both the Sox and Seattle came out ahead in the deal. Cincinnati was the loser.

Jeez... attack someone's delusion and they lash out at you.

jklm
05-03-2002, 06:12 PM
Trades are not necessarily zero-sum games. Cameron is an all-star CF. If he keeps it up, Paulie will be an AS as well. Personally, I think Cameron is the better player but I am happy with Paulie.