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voodoochile
05-20-2008, 11:39 PM
I'm not here to talk about the past...

Well actually, I am...

3 weeks and 3 hours past to be exact (or close enough for spitting distance)...

It was at that moment in time when the Sox started a road game against division rival Minnesota. The Sox were struggling a bit offensively and were coming off a frustrating suspended game against the Orioles the previous day. Still, they had won 3 of their last 4 decisions and were tied with their high water mark in games over .500 as well as having their largest lead of the year - 2.5 games over the second place team.

We all know what happened next. The Sox bats went stone cold and the team scored 9 runs over the next 6 games, losing all of them. When the smoke had cleared, the floodgates were wide open and several fans were headed toward the door. One poster typed that his father had said, "stick a fork in 'em, they're done." It was a dark cloud party extreme. People wanted Pablo Ozuna cut. Not traded, not sent down, cut.

So here we sit, a little later than it was when I started typing this post. The Sox have just won their 6th straight. They are back to 4 games over .500. The lead is 1.5 over the second place team and Pablo Ozuna went 2 for 2 with a key insurance RBI subbing for Joe Crede who got tossed tonight... Hmmm... he had a migraine in the final loss of the aforementioned losing streak... I don't know what that means if anything, just one more random coincidence in the circle of life that is each and every baseball season...

So, what have we learned?

It's a long season...

What's that?

It's a REALLY long season...

One more time...

We are just past the 1/4 mark of a 162 game schedule, so try and not freak out if the Sox struggle for a week or so. Because sometimes when you least expect it...

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:supernana:

:)

itsnotrequired
05-20-2008, 11:40 PM
greg walker should be fired, etc.

Cuck the Fubs
05-20-2008, 11:44 PM
Post of the week!

:cool:

munchman33
05-20-2008, 11:46 PM
Even last place teams streak.

If you had said before the year we'd be 24-20 at this point in the year, I don't think anyone would say that was impossible.

The surprising thing is how poor the Indians have played, and how incredibly terrible the Tigers have been. We can't just expect that to continue for the last 75% of the season. Do you really think the Indians are gonna play at or below .500 for the rest of the year? Probably not. And we'll have to have much better than 24-20 stretches to win this thing.

soxwon
05-20-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm not here to talk about the past...

Well actually, I am...

3 weeks and 3 hours past to be exact (or close enough for spitting distance)...

It was at that moment in time when the Sox started a road game against division rival Minnesota. The Sox were struggling a bit offensively and were coming off frustrating suspended game against the Orioles the previous day. Still, they had won 3 of their last 4 decisions and were tied with their high water mark in games over .500 as well as having their largest lead of the year - 2.5 games over the second place team.

We all know what happened next. The Sox bats went stone cold and the team scored 9 games over the next 6, losing all of them. When the smoke had cleared, the floodgates were wide open and several fans were headed toward the door. One poster typed that his father had said, "stick a fork in 'em, they're done." It was a dark cloud party extreme. People wanted Pablo Ozuna cut. Not traded, not sent down, cut.

So here we sit, a little later than it was when I started typing this post. The Sox have just won their 6th straight. They are back to 4 games over .500. The lead is 1.5 over the second place team and Pablo Ozuna went 2 for 2 with a key insurance RBI subbing for Joe Crede who got tossed tonight... Hmmm... he had a migraine in the final loss of the aforementioned losing streak... I don't know what that means if anything, just one more random coincidence in the circle of life that is each and every baseball season...

So, what have we learned?

It's a long season...

What's that?

It's a REALLY long season...

One more time...

We are just past the 1/4 mark of a 162 game schedule, so try and not freak out if the Sox struggle for a week or so. Because sometimes when you least expect it...

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:supernana:

:)

Very good Voodoo, there were many Dark Clouds, but most of us stuck it out.
I as you know never, give up with my optomism, and you too are vocal about, waiting it out.
I know my rants aren't for everyone, but im trying to get more people to BELIEVE in this team, as i do.
I truely believe we can win it all-i really do, and so far this season, i have no regrets.
we are having a GREAT season!!!!

sox1970
05-20-2008, 11:48 PM
Even last place teams streak.

If you had said before the year we'd be 24-20 at this point in the year, I don't think anyone would say that was impossible.

The surprising thing is how poor the Indians have played, and how incredibly terrible the Tigers have been. We can't just expect that to continue for the last 75% of the season. Do you really think the Indians are gonna play at or below .500 for the rest of the year? Probably not. And we'll have to have much better than 24-20 stretches to win this thing.

I think it's possible the Indians offense doesn't improve much. They already have the lowest average in the league.

It's really obvious Hafner and Martinez are shrinking. VMart has no homers--hilarious.

thomas35forever
05-20-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm not here to talk about the past...

Well actually, I am...

3 weeks and 3 hours past to be exact (or close enough for spitting distance)...

It was at that moment in time when the Sox started a road game against division rival Minnesota. The Sox were struggling a bit offensively and were coming off frustrating suspended game against the Orioles the previous day. Still, they had won 3 of their last 4 decisions and were tied with their high water mark in games over .500 as well as having their largest lead of the year - 2.5 games over the second place team.

We all know what happened next. The Sox bats went stone cold and the team scored 9 games over the next 6, losing all of them. When the smoke had cleared, the floodgates were wide open and several fans were headed toward the door. One poster typed that his father had said, "stick a fork in 'em, they're done." It was a dark cloud party extreme. People wanted Pablo Ozuna cut. Not traded, not sent down, cut.

So here we sit, a little later than it was when I started typing this post. The Sox have just won their 6th straight. They are back to 4 games over .500. The lead is 1.5 over the second place team and Pablo Ozuna went 2 for 2 with a key insurance RBI subbing for Joe Crede who got tossed tonight... Hmmm... he had a migraine in the final loss of the aforementioned losing streak... I don't know what that means if anything, just one more random coincidence in the circle of life that is each and every baseball season...

So, what have we learned?

It's a long season...

What's that?

It's a REALLY long season...

One more time...

We are just past the 1/4 mark of a 162 game schedule, so try and not freak out if the Sox struggle for a week or so. Because sometimes when you least expect it...

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:winner

:supernana:

:)
Glad you remembered me, voodoo.:tongue:

FTR, I really don't know if he meant it. He just sometimes says stuff like that to me if our teams aren't doing well at some point. Just sayin'.

Cuck the Fubs
05-20-2008, 11:48 PM
Even last place teams streak.

If you had said before the year we'd be 24-20 at this point in the year, I don't think anyone would say that was impossible.


I dunno, based on the local & national media, we'd be lucky to fend off the Royals for last place.

The pitching staff has been incredible, if the offense gets to it's norm we'll run away with the central.

voodoochile
05-20-2008, 11:50 PM
Even last place teams streak.

If you had said before the year we'd be 24-20 at this point in the year, I don't think anyone would say that was impossible.

The surprising thing is how poor the Indians have played, and how incredibly terrible the Tigers have been. We can't just expect that to continue for the last 75% of the season. Do you really think the Indians are gonna play at or below .500 for the rest of the year? Probably not. And we'll have to have much better than 24-20 stretches to win this thing.

Have you taken a look at the Detroit starters recently? What makes you think that team is a contender?

Oh and how come the Indians amazing pitching staff and crappy offense is sure gel into an amazing pitching staff and a wonderful offense, yet our amazing pitching staff and below average offense are sure to get worse?

You'd be nothing if not consistent, Munch, but try to enjoy the moment...

doublem23
05-20-2008, 11:54 PM
You'd be nothing if not consistent, Munch, but try to enjoy the moment...

He's still fuming over trading away a guy whose ERA is approaching 6 in High-A ball.

If there's one reason to believe in the White Sox, our pitching staff is by far the best in the Central and one of the best in the American League. We're good, folks. Deal with it.

munchman33
05-20-2008, 11:56 PM
Have you taken a look at the Detroit starters recently? What makes you think that team is a contender?

Oh and how come the Indians amazing pitching staff and crappy offense is sure gel into an amazing pitching staff and a wonderful offense, yet our amazing pitching staff and below average offense are sure to get worse?

You'd be nothing if not consistent, Munch, but try to enjoy the moment...

Indians pitchers have been better than us the last month...

voodoochile
05-20-2008, 11:59 PM
Indians pitchers have been better than us the last month...

"(They)'ll have to have much better than (one month)stretches to win this thing." :tongue:

itsnotrequired
05-21-2008, 12:03 AM
Indians pitchers have been better than us the last month...

Good for them, they are one more game back than when the month started. They even took a 1.5 game lead in the division and lost it.

Meanwhile, the Sox started the month with a 0.5 game lead and now have a 1.5 game lead.

doublem23
05-21-2008, 12:03 AM
Indians pitchers have been better than us the last month...

Indians starters have been better, but their bullpen is a lot shakier. Their relief ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=cle&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std) is a full run higher than ours (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=chw&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std).

Anyway, the consensus around here before the season started was that the Sox had no chance at the division; both Detroit and Cleveland were too strong to compete with. Well, we're past the quarter-pole and it's pretty clear that opinion was dead wrong. Whether or not they're able to hang on, I don't think you can fault KW for not throwing in the towel and starting from scratch when he clearly has assembled a team that can go to the post-season.

The Sox are a good team. You can either keep trying to save face and dig yourself deeper and deeper in a hole or you can just start dealing with it. I know I am.

:bandance:

jabrch
05-21-2008, 12:06 AM
Indians starters have been better, but their bullpen is a lot shakier. Their relief ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=cle&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std) is a full run higher than ours (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=chw&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std).

Anyway, the consensus around here before the season started was that the Sox had no chance at the division; both Detroit and Cleveland were too strong to compete with. Well, we're past the quarter-pole and it's pretty clear that opinion was dead wrong. Whether or not they're able to hang on, I don't think you can fault KW for not throwing in the towel and starting from scratch when he clearly has assembled a team that can go to the post-season.

The Sox are a good team. You can either keep trying to save face and dig yourself deeper and deeper in a hole or you can just start dealing with it. I know I am.

:bandance:


Nice post Doublem. At this point, I see no reason to believe this team won't contend all season.

munchman33
05-21-2008, 12:09 AM
Indians starters have been better, but their bullpen is a lot shakier. Their relief ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=cle&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std) is a full run higher than ours (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=chw&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std).

Anyway, the consensus around here before the season started was that the Sox had no chance at the division; both Detroit and Cleveland were too strong to compete with. Well, we're past the quarter-pole and it's pretty clear that opinion was dead wrong. Whether or not they're able to hang on, I don't think you can fault KW for not throwing in the towel and starting from scratch when he clearly has assembled a team that can go to the post-season.

Oh come on. I was the biggest dissenter and even I conceded we could have a chance if our starters all pitched well and Cleveland and Detroit didn't play up to their talent. Well, so far that's happened. But we still need help if we're gonna keep it up. I don't expect Cleveland to hit as poorly as they have all year long. In fact, I see them ending the year with one of the best offenses in baseball.

I'm actually pretty sold on our pitching. Now if Kenny goes out and gets Brian Roberts...

itsnotrequired
05-21-2008, 12:15 AM
Oh come on. I was the biggest dissenter and even I conceded we could have a chance if our starters all pitched well and Cleveland and Detroit didn't play up to their talent. Well, so far that's happened. But we still need help if we're gonna keep it up. I don't expect Cleveland to hit as poorly as they have all year long. In fact, I see them ending the year with one of the best offenses in baseball.

I'm actually pretty sold on our pitching. Now if Kenny goes out and gets Brian Roberts...

Yet the Sox will continue hit this poorly, with 5 regular players hitting below their career averages?

kittle42
05-21-2008, 12:22 AM
greg walker should be fired, etc.

He should still be fired.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:27 AM
Yet the Sox will continue hit this poorly, with 5 regular players hitting below their career averages?

To be fair, Cleveland's pitchers aren't pitching way beyond expectations, unlike our pitching staff.

So while it's likely the Sox hitters will probably normalize, so will the Indians hitters AND our pitching.

That doesn't mean it will, and as it stands, we're in 1st place, so, we're where we want to be

kittle42
05-21-2008, 12:27 AM
It's too early to write off bad teams (Yankees, etc.) and it's too early to anoint good teams successful (Marlins, etc.).

That's what the first 1/4, maybe even 1/2, of a baseball season says to me.

As for the Sox, I'd like more consistency, which will require better hitting from 5 guys hitting near .200. That's about it.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:28 AM
It's too early to write off bad teams (Yankees, etc.) and it's too early to anoint good teams successful (Marlins, etc.).

That's what the first 1/4, maybe even 1/2, of a baseball season says to me.

As for the Sox, I'd like more consistency, which will require better hitting from 5 guys hitting near .200. That's about it.

Exactly. I'm glad we're in first place and pitching well. But we don't look particularly good at the plate.

Luckily, though, that's getting better, it seems like

WhiteSox5187
05-21-2008, 12:30 AM
I've said this all along, even in the losing streak, if we continue to pitch like this regardless of what the offense does, we'll be in OK shape for the whole year. Having said that, this team is playing very well but I'm still not 100% sold on them yet. I was thinking this team was playing very good last year at this time too, so while I'm excited, I'm nervous too. My dad always says you can tell the pretenders from the contenders by the end of May, and we're rapidly approaching that and we're in pretty good shape too. I think it's at the end of June though that you know whether a team is for real or not. So, that means another month of waffling from me.

munchman33
05-21-2008, 12:31 AM
Yet the Sox will continue hit this poorly, with 5 regular players hitting below their career averages?

I think Swisher and Cabrera will improve.

I'm not sure Thome and Konerko will, age and injuries seem to have caught up to them. It seems more of a continuation of last year.

And while I said I'm "sold" on the pitching, Floyd and Danks are NOT going to have eras in the 2 range all year. Sorry, that's just not gonna happen. And if you think they will, there's just no arguing with you.

The pitching will fall a bit, the hitting will climb a bit. In the end, it's an around .500 bunch. We still desperately need speed. Don't give me runs scored. We score them in bunches and then can't get a run for a week. We still can't produce runs when we aren't mashing.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 12:34 AM
To be fair, Cleveland's pitchers aren't pitching way beyond expectations, unlike our pitching staff.

So while it's likely the Sox hitters will probably normalize, so will the Indians hitters AND our pitching.

That doesn't mean it will, and as it stands, we're in 1st place, so, we're where we want to be

Just curious, but according to whom? WSI posters?

Don't the Sox have 2 young kids who were both top prospects at one time? Aren't they both just hitting an age and level of experience where you might actually expect to see consistency?

Weren't Buehlre and Vazquez expected to perform like aces? (If anything, this says our staff should get better).

Hasn't Contreras shown the ability to get batters out since being in Chicago?

Just because the Sox acquired them doesn't mean they are expected to fail and just because Contreras had a bad season last year doesn't mean he's over the hill and toast.

I realize it's shocking for many of the people who ranted all off season about the crappy starting pitching to see the opposite be true, but isn't it more likely that those posters were wrong than the people who actually run a major league team?

Oh I forgot, it's KW and OG... nevermind... they suck...:rolleyes:

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:39 AM
Just curious, but according to whom? WSI posters?

Contreras has a lousy track record. Danks is in his 2nd year. Floyd has not had any prolonged success.

I'm not saying the Indians have better arms, or that they will be better, but it's a lot less likely a rotation like theirs with proven track records will deviate from the pace they're at (which, apart from Lee, are pretty much in line with their career number)


Don't the Sox have 2 young kids who were both top prospects at one time? Aren't they both just hitting an age and level of experience where you might actually expect to see consistency?You COULD see consistency, and let's hope we do. You could also expect to see a guy who posted a 5.00 ERA last year (Danks) to pitch somewhere closer to 4.00 than 2.50. And you might expect a guy like Floyd to post closer to a 4.00 than a 3.00, especially based on his past performance and his K numbers.

Obviously that might not end up being the case, but this is why we're talking about expectations, and to what extent the White Sox pitchers are outperforming them


Weren't Buehlre and Vazquez expected to perform like aces? (If anything, this says our staff should get better).
Yes, and they are 2 members of a 5 man rotation.


Hasn't Contreras shown the ability to get batters out since being in Chicago?Yes, and he's also shown that he can have a good stretch followed by an awful stretch. I'm not talking about potential. I'm simply following the line of thought presented earlier about what will happen when/if things "normalize to career numbers"


Just because the Sox acquired them doesn't mean they are expected to fail and just because Contreras had a bad season last year doesn't mean he's over the hill and toast.I certainly don't believe that, and I don't see where you see me suggesting it either


I realize it's shocking for many of the people who ranted all off season about the crappy starting pitching to see the opposite be true, but isn't it more likely that those posters were wrong than the people who actually run a major league team?

Oh I forgot, it's KW and OG... nevermind... they suck...:rolleyes:I didn't rant at all this offseason about the pitching. I was extremely excited to see Floyd and Danks pitch.

I also am one of Kenny's biggest fans and think he's an excellent GM.

However, I wasn't enthusiastic about the final product, and even now would caution people not to EXPECT Danks, Floyd, and Contreras to keep pitching beyond where we would have expected them even with an optimistic projection

doublem23
05-21-2008, 12:45 AM
To be fair, Cleveland's pitchers aren't pitching way beyond expectations, unlike our pitching staff.


I have to disagree. Cliff Lee's ERA is 1.35 even after his meltdown against the Reds this weekend. Aaron Laffey had 9 starts in his MLB career before his call-up and currently sports a WHIP under 1. Even Paul Byrd's over a 1/2 run under his career ERA right now.

Floyd and Danks were both Top 10 overall draft picks and Don Cooper has proven to be a very good pitching coach. Vazquez is pitching just as well as he did last year, and Contreras is pitching real well right now... I don't expect him to keep this up, but hopefully his struggles last year were really mental and not age-related, so an ERA of 5.57 is out of the picture.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:51 AM
I have to disagree. Cliff Lee's ERA is 1.35 even after his meltdown against the Reds this weekend. Aaron Laffey had 9 starts in his MLB career before his call-up and currently sports a WHIP under 1. Even Paul Byrd's over a 1/2 run under his career ERA right now.

Floyd and Danks were both Top 10 overall draft picks and Don Cooper has proven to be a very good pitching coach. Vazquez is pitching just as well as he did last year, and Contreras is pitching real well right now... I don't expect him to keep this up, but hopefully his struggles last year were really mental and not age-related, so an ERA of 5.57 is out of the picture.

Anything's possible. But to point to Lee's ERA as an aberrance while talking about Danks and Floyd's talent kind of overlooks that Lee has as much talent as either of them--people were just waiting for him to put it together.

Does that ERA mean that he's figured it out? Probably not. But you should say the same about Danks and Floyd--Danks, Floyd, and Lee are probably closer to 4.00 pitchers than where they're at right now.

Contreras, Laffey and Burly are the wild cards--whereas Floyd, Danks, and Lee are the kids pitching out of their mind who will probably normalize.

Which leaves us with Byrd, Carmona, Sabathia, and Vaz, who are all pretty much pitching as expected.

That's all I'm saying.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 01:00 AM
I'm not saying the Indians have better arms, or that they will be better, but it's a lot less likely a rotation like theirs with proven track records will deviate from the pace they're at (which, apart from Lee, are pretty much in line with their career number)

Your what hurts?

Cliff Lee: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5353

Current ERA 1.37 for 8 starts. Career ERA: 4.39 133 starts

Fausto Carmona: Third season in the majors. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6356

2.25 ERA in 9 starts. Career ERA: 3.44 48 starts Sounds like Floyd or Danks

Jake Westbrook: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4422

ERA 2.73 4 starts Career ERA 4.30 159 starts

Paul Byrd http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3307

Current ERA 3.61 8 starts (lowest ever since he became a full time starter). Career ERA 4.33 228 starts (4.88 and 4.59 last two seasons)

If the Sox normalize to the numbers you expect, then expect Cleveland's pitching to do so also. Oh and who's to say that Danks and Floyd aren't turning into this year's 2007 Carmona? They certainly have the talent, stuff, attitude and ability to do it plus they've got Coop. :tongue:

pmck003
05-21-2008, 01:04 AM
What about mojo and pure luck and team chemistry and fairy tales? That stuff is at least 10 games or so.

Mohoney
05-21-2008, 01:04 AM
Even last place teams streak.

If you had said before the year we'd be 24-20 at this point in the year, I don't think anyone would say that was impossible.

The surprising thing is how poor the Indians have played, and how incredibly terrible the Tigers have been. We can't just expect that to continue for the last 75% of the season. Do you really think the Indians are gonna play at or below .500 for the rest of the year? Probably not. And we'll have to have much better than 24-20 stretches to win this thing.

About a month ago, I would have probably agreed with this, but now, I'm not so sure.

The Indians' lineup doesn't scare me at all. The Tigers' pitching staff doesn't scare me at all, either. The teams expected to win over 90 games in this division both have serious flaws, and I'm not so sure that they will magically correct themselves.

I know it would have sounded like insanity a month ago, but I can see a real possibility that this division could be won by a sub-90 win team.

The Dude
05-21-2008, 01:05 AM
He should still be fired.

Agreed:D:

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 01:10 AM
Your what hurts?

Cliff Lee: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5353

Current ERA 1.37 for 8 starts. Career ERA: 4.39 133 starts

Remember where I said EXCEPT Lee?


Fausto Carmona: Third season in the majors. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6356

2.25 ERA in 9 starts. Career ERA: 3.44 48 starts Sounds like Floyd or Danks


Carmona has a full season under his belt where he put up: 3.06 ERA/ 1.209 WHIP. Therefore his 2008 2.25 ERA/1.5 WHIP is a lot more established than Danks(5.50 ERA/1.54 WHIP) or Floyd (5.27 ERA/1.46 WHIP in 07, 5.57 ERA/1.53 WHIP ) putting up similarly low numbers in 2008.

So now, doesn't sound that much like Floyd or Danks :rolleyes:


Jake Westbrook: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4422

ERA 2.73 4 starts Career ERA 4.30 159 starts


You talking about his 4 starts?


Paul Byrd http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3307

Current ERA 3.61 8 starts (lowest ever since he became a full time starter). Career ERA 4.33 228 starts (4.88 and 4.59 last two seasons)

.70 off his career. A lot less than Danks, Floyd, or Contreras--or heck, even Vazquez


If the Sox normalize to the numbers you expect, then expect Cleveland's pitching to do so also. Oh and who's to say that Danks and Floyd aren't turning into this year's 2007 Carmona? They certainly have the talent, stuff, attitude and ability to do it plus they've got Coop. :tongue:


Jesus Christ, quit making this about me. This is about the fact that the White Sox are pitching better than anyone could have possibly hoped for.

I was very optimistic about the pitching this offseason, but I was PRAYING for mid 3''s out of Danks, high 3's out of Floyd and low 4's out of Contreras. Obviously I knew that Contreras could have a much lower ERA too, if everything clicked, but the point is 3 out of 5 of the Sox's pitchers are pitching much much much much better than expected....whereas there's really only one of the Indian's full-time starters who is pitching far beyond what his preseason expectations should have been.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 01:24 AM
Carmona has a full season under his belt where he put up: 3.06 ERA/ 1.209 WHIP. Therefore his 2008 2.25 ERA/1.5 WHIP is a lot more established than Danks(5.50 ERA/1.54 WHIP) or Floyd (5.27 ERA/1.46 WHIP in 07, 5.57 ERA/1.53 WHIP ) putting up similarly low numbers in 2008.

So now, doesn't sound that much like Floyd or Danks :rolleyes:

Sounds like them prior to last season now doesn't it? That's when Carmona put up a 5.42 ERA in 32 games and 7 starts with a WHIP around 1.5. That's my point. Until last season, Carmona was nothing but promise - sort of like Danks and Floyd.


I was very optimistic about the pitching this offseason, but I was PRAYING for mid 3''s out of Danks, high 3's out of Floyd and low 4's out of Contreras. Obviously I knew that Contreras could have a much lower ERA too, if everything clicked, but the point is 3 out of 5 of the Sox's pitchers are pitching much much much much better than expected....whereas there's really only one of the Indian's full-time starters who is pitching far beyond what his preseason expectations should have been.

Yeah, but expectations for young pitchers with top of the line pedigrees aren't worth much because they are young and because they are unproven. However, given their background and ability, this was always a possibility and the possibility remains that they will continue to pitch just like they are. There isn't a normalization curve for Danks and Floyd. They are still establishing said curve.

That's why I ask, expected by who?

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 01:45 AM
Sounds like them prior to last season now doesn't it? That's when Carmona put up a 5.42 ERA in 32 games and 7 starts with a WHIP around 1.5. That's my point. Until last season, Carmona was nothing but promise - sort of like Danks and Floyd.

Sure. But that doesn't mean Carmona should have been expected to put up his numbers last year either.


Yeah, but expectations for young pitchers with top of the line pedigrees aren't worth much because they are young and because they are unproven. However, given their background and ability, this was always a possibility and the possibility remains that they will continue to pitch just like they are. There isn't a normalization curve for Danks and Floyd. They are still establishing said curve.

That's why I ask, expected by who?

I agree that Danks and Floyd have a high ceiling. But looking at their 2008 they could have been expected to either improve or not improve.

It's not like the Sox have had that much success developing young starting pitchers that we can say "you've got a guy with talent, they're guarantee to get better"

Expected by who? I don't suppose there's any specific person whose authority is any more or less valuable, but I don't suppose anyone who has a rationally objective view of this team

a.) expected these numbers from Danks, Floyd, or Contreras before the season started

b.) expect them to continue at this specific level

That doesn't mean it can't happen...hell, Carmona's past year success certainly doesn't mean we should expect him to repeat it. It just makes it more likely to expect it.

It is what it is. This isn't a big deal anyway, unless you're betting on the pitching staff in Vegas

Chicken Dinner
05-21-2008, 01:49 AM
Everyone wants instant results in a 162 game season. That doesn't happen. We're in this thing, and it could be good. Leave Charlotte players in Charlotte and if we stay healthy we have the potential to have a great year.

P.S. Walker stays and so does Uribe.

WhiteSox5187
05-21-2008, 02:46 AM
I think Swisher and Cabrera will improve.

I'm not sure Thome and Konerko will, age and injuries seem to have caught up to them. It seems more of a continuation of last year.

And while I said I'm "sold" on the pitching, Floyd and Danks are NOT going to have eras in the 2 range all year. Sorry, that's just not gonna happen. And if you think they will, there's just no arguing with you.

The pitching will fall a bit, the hitting will climb a bit. In the end, it's an around .500 bunch. We still desperately need speed. Don't give me runs scored. We score them in bunches and then can't get a run for a week. We still can't produce runs when we aren't mashing.
Granted that Floyd and Danks are not going to be this dominating all season, but Buerhle is bound to pick it up and I think it is unlikely that either Danks or Floyd completely fall off the face of the earth, so I'm not too worried about our pitching. Our offense is still very one dimensional, but for some crazy reason I keep thinking that if Alexei keeps hitting well (granted his two hits tonight were cheap) we might see him in the leadoff spot and he could bring us some needed speed. At the end of the day the name of hte game is pitching and if we keep pitching like this, then our offense can be streaky (much like in 2000). It will be maddening at times, but it should result in a playoff berth.

whitesoxwilkes
05-21-2008, 04:31 AM
Very good Voodoo, there were many Dark Clouds, but most of us stuck it out.
I as you know never, give up with my optomism, and you too are vocal about, waiting it out.
I know my rants aren't for everyone, but im trying to get more people to BELIEVE in this team, as i do.
I truely believe we can win it all-i really do, and so far this season, i have no regrets.
we are having a GREAT season!!!!

:hawk

"I've been on board with you, Reverand."

Frontman
05-21-2008, 07:34 AM
Even last place teams streak.

Yes, yes they do. However the Sox aren't in last place right now, are they?


If you had said before the year we'd be 24-20 at this point in the year, I don't think anyone would say that was impossible.

Don't kid yourself. There are Sox fans who still think this team will end in dead last.


The surprising thing is how poor the Indians have played, and how incredibly terrible the Tigers have been.

I'm surprised by the Indians; but I'm honestly not surprised by the Tigers, as the "killer" lineup has some pretty long-in-the-tooth players. For those who listed Maggs and Shef as being "huge threats" I point out that both are on the downside of their careers; and it didn't surprise me at all that Shef was out with injury pretty early in the season. Their pitching staff is so-so.

We can't just expect that to continue for the last 75% of the season.

Gee, in any given situation; I would agree with you. But considering we said the same exact thing about the 2007 White Sox, "We can't expect that they will continue not to get hits for the rest of the season;" All things are possible in baseball.


Do you really think the Indians are gonna play at or below .500 for the rest of the year? Probably not. And we'll have to have much better than 24-20 stretches to win this thing.

Agreed. But if the Sox keep on putting on 5-6 game winning streaks, with a 1-3 game losing streak here and there; they're going to be on top of this division.

It's a long season, and yeah; some of us were ready to give up on the team when the signs of the 2007 style of Sox baseball showed up. But the team came back together, and no; there are games this team have won without the benefit of the home run. But it will be a power hitting team, there is no doubt about it.

The problem with speed players? The same thing with power hitters. If they don't hit, they don't get on/score. Period.

Carolina Kenny
05-21-2008, 08:07 AM
I think it's possible the Indians offense doesn't improve much. They already have the lowest average in the league.

It's really obvious Hafner and Martinez are shrinking. VMart has no homers--hilarious.

Hafner has always been a ugly beast, but I was thinking the same thing about Martinez. He really looks alot less bulky, its really noticable. AJ looks more streamlined, but somehow it looks like AJ's weight loss looks like a guy that been on a health kick. Martinez just looks shrunk from the way he used to look.

also, it is a really long season. Our record last year at this time was also 24-20.

kitekrazy
05-21-2008, 09:12 AM
Floyd and Danks were both Top 10 overall draft picks and Don Cooper has proven to be a very good pitching coach.

Coop may be the most valuable person in this organization. When the lower end of the staff is pitching above average that usually means playoff baseball.

kittle42
05-21-2008, 09:13 AM
also, it is a really long season. Our record last year at this time was also 24-20.

Yup. I'm happy right now, but my optimism is tempered.

kitekrazy
05-21-2008, 09:13 AM
Hafner has always been a ugly beast, but I was thinking the same thing about Martinez. He really looks alot less bulky, its really noticable. AJ looks more streamlined, but somehow it looks like AJ's weight loss looks like a guy that been on a health kick. Martinez just looks shrunk from the way he used to look.

also, it is a really long season. Our record last year at this time was also 24-20.

Hopefully the "roid" era has come to an end. MLB seems to resemble the sport it use to be instead of a video game.

skottyj242
05-21-2008, 09:50 AM
I really wish I woulndn't have burned my season tickets.

Hitmen77
05-21-2008, 09:52 AM
Indians starters have been better, but their bullpen is a lot shakier. Their relief ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=cle&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std) is a full run higher than ours (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=chw&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=128&cat=ERA&order=false&type=std).

Anyway, the consensus around here before the season started was that the Sox had no chance at the division; both Detroit and Cleveland were too strong to compete with. Well, we're past the quarter-pole and it's pretty clear that opinion was dead wrong. Whether or not they're able to hang on, I don't think you can fault KW for not throwing in the towel and starting from scratch when he clearly has assembled a team that can go to the post-season.

The Sox are a good team. You can either keep trying to save face and dig yourself deeper and deeper in a hole or you can just start dealing with it. I know I am.

:bandance:

Excellent post. I seem to remember many people saying that their biggest concern with the Sox was their tough early schedule....that they'd likely get buried by Detroit and Cleveland by Memorial Day.

So far, they're looking pretty good despite a lineup with 5 guys hitting about .210. I'm still hopeful that the offense will get much better as players start hitting near their career norms.

Our pitchers will likely see somewhat of a dropoff. No, I don't expect Danks and Floyd to have a 2.00 ERA from here on out. But you know what, I have every reason to believe that all 5 of our starters will be solid throughout the season and combined with a pretty decent bullpen may take us far if the offense rebounds.

Of course, none of this is guaranteed. They still have 5 more games against Cleveland in the next week plus games against the 1st place Angels and a very good Rays team....and yes, we all know that we were 24-20 at this point last year. ....but why can't we just enjoy the way the team is playing now? I'm not saying be a Pollyanna - but it amazes me how intent some WSI posters are on saying we're definitely going to fail.

jabrch
05-21-2008, 09:54 AM
but why can't we just enjoy the way the team is playing now.

You can.

You have every right to.

Just because there are a bunch of people out there looking for the worst in everything doesn't mean you can't enjoy what has been some very good baseball. I know I have.

GoSox2K3
05-21-2008, 10:08 AM
I think Swisher and Cabrera will improve.

I'm not sure Thome and Konerko will, age and injuries seem to have caught up to them. It seems more of a continuation of last year.



:?:

Konerko is only 32 and has no injury history.

If anything is a continuation for him, it's his annoying tendency to hit dreadfully until around Memorial Day before turning things around.

areilly
05-21-2008, 10:26 AM
You can.

You have every right to.

Just because there are a bunch of people out there looking for the worst in everything doesn't mean you can't enjoy what has been some very good baseball. I know I have.

The bolded part is why I don't believe in this team just yet, in that they really haven't been playing good baseball. Double-digit stranded runners? 13-8 against San Fran? Livan Hernandez? Toronto?

Yes, some things are looking good right now. Quentin, obviously. Danks and Floyd have been remarkable surprises thus far. Javy isn't automatically quitting in the fifth these days, and calling the bullpen isn't a guaranteed loss anymore. But until this streakiness in either direction stops, it's hard to say things like "contender" and "October."

Keep in mind also that a lot of those wins have come from feasting on mediocre teams. The Sox are 5-1 against Detroit, for example, and the Good Guys' 24-20 record is good for 3rd place in any other division.

That said. . . Go Sox. It's nice to not be embarrassed by liking this team.

spiffie
05-21-2008, 10:51 AM
I still don't think they have the horses to go all the way to the playoffs. But last night when Contreras struck out Sizemore in the 5th with two men, I sure did cheer in my living room like this game mattered.

My hope for the year was to get out of spring and into summer with the Sox playing meaningful baseball, and getting good performances from the young kids who will be the future of the team. So far Danks, Floyd, Quentin and Anderson have all performed beyond expectations, and the Sox are going to still be in the hunt as the calendar turns to June. As a Sox fan, I'm pretty damn happy about that.

SoxGirl4Life
05-21-2008, 11:03 AM
That said. . . Go Sox. It's nice to not be embarrassed by liking this team.


I'm never embarrassed of being a Sox fan.

itsnotrequired
05-21-2008, 11:20 AM
The bolded part is why I don't believe in this team just yet, in that they really haven't been playing good baseball. Double-digit stranded runners? 13-8 against San Fran? Livan Hernandez? Toronto?

Even the great teams are going to have hiccups. Boston got swept in Toronto this year as well. The Angels dropped two of three in Seattle. The DBacks dropped two of three in Cinci.

RTI_SoxFan
05-21-2008, 11:34 AM
Even the great teams are going to have hiccups. Boston got swept in Toronto this year as well. The Angels dropped two of three in Seattle. The DBacks dropped two of three in Cinci.

Heck - the DBacks got swept by the Cubs :o:

SoxGirl4Life
05-21-2008, 11:43 AM
Heck - the DBacks got swept by the Cubs :o:


I'm starting to wonder about the Dbacks. They have an almost perfect record in their division, but are lukewarm against everyone else...

kitekrazy
05-21-2008, 11:44 AM
Keep in mind also that a lot of those wins have come from feasting on mediocre teams.

At one time it was choking against teams they should beat that always hurt them.

They swept the Giants. That's what good teams are suppose to do. The game is not always about the best team. It's whoever is in a streak at a given time. It's possible for a team to win the World Series and have a season with less than 90 victories.

kittle42
05-21-2008, 11:46 AM
Hopefully the "roid" era has come to an end. MLB seems to resemble the sport it use to be instead of a video game.

When all the players looked like Alexei Ramirez!

munchman33
05-21-2008, 11:55 AM
:?:

Konerko is only 32 and has no injury history.

If anything is a continuation for him, it's his annoying tendency to hit dreadfully until around Memorial Day before turning things around.

:scratch:

He's been playing with a degenerative hip condition for years now.

areilly
05-21-2008, 12:18 PM
They swept the Giants. That's what good teams are suppose to do. The game is not always about the best team. It's whoever is in a streak at a given time. It's possible for a team to win the World Series and have a season with less than 90 victories.

The Giants are the worst team in baseball; every team is supposed to beat them, and that's exactly why I'm not ready to cite that as proof of this team's true ability.

itsnotrequired
05-21-2008, 12:20 PM
Heck - the DBacks got swept by the Cubs :o:

I heard the Cubs have a good team this year.

Frontman
05-21-2008, 12:21 PM
:scratch:

He's been playing with a degenerative hip condition for years now.

Yes, that's why his thumb is bothering him this season. A degenerative hip condition causes the thumb to swell; thus his "injuries seem to have caught up to him."

:rolleyes:

aryzner
05-21-2008, 12:25 PM
I love the Sox when they're playing good or bad. I just hate it when they're playing bad.

That being said, I was angry when they were playing so poorly over that 6 game losing streak. I think I posted something like, "This team is currently unwatchable."

The key word there being "currently." They are now back to watchable if you ask me!

kittle42
05-21-2008, 12:28 PM
I heard the Cubs have a good team this year.

Possibly better than Arizona, despite what some people here would swear up and down to.

Also, good call on not being too taken with the 7-3 road trip. 5-1 against Seattle and SF? Even on the road, that should be expected for a "first-place" caliber team. Splitting with Anaheim on the road was good. But the offense hasn't been much better.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Possibly better than Arizona, despite what some people here would swear up and down to.

Also, good call on not being too taken with the 7-3 road trip. 5-1 against Seattle and SF? Even on the road, that should be expected for a "first-place" caliber team. Splitting with Anaheim on the road was good. But the offense hasn't been much better.

The hits are coming. It's not up to where we'd like to see it currently, but at least they are hitting the ball better more consistently. The Sox may never hit their "Pythagorean run total" for the season, but if they keep putting up double digit hits, they should score enough to win most games.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:34 PM
The hits are coming. It's not up to where we'd like to see it currently, but at least they are hitting the ball better more consistently. The Sox may never hit their "Pythagorean run total" for the season, but if they keep putting up double digit hits, they should score enough to win most games.

All "Pythagorean run total" really means is "Scoring more runs than you allow"

Sounds like exactly what you're advocating...

itsnotrequired
05-21-2008, 12:36 PM
All "Pythagorean run total" really means is "Scoring more runs than you allow"

Sounds like exactly what you're advocating...

<McCarver>The team that scores more runs will win the game.<Madden>

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 12:38 PM
All "Pythagorean run total" really means is "Scoring more runs than you allow"

Sounds like exactly what you're advocating...

No, I was bastardizing a bastardized stat.

Pythagorean win total = number of expected wins based on run differential (as I understand it).

I don't know if there is such a term as "Pythagorean run total" but I assume you could generate a stat that would predict number of expected runs based on hits and walks or team OPS or something. I leave it to those who love to make up stats to come up with the exact formula if there isn't one already...:tongue:

Iwritecode
05-21-2008, 12:39 PM
Keep in mind also that a lot of those wins have come from feasting on mediocre teams. The Sox are 5-1 against Detroit, for example, and the Good Guys' 24-20 record is good for 3rd place in any other division.

That's not entirely true. They are 11-10 against teams currently over .500 and 13-10 against teams currently under.

That includes splitting with Oakland and Anaheim and taking 2/3 against the Rays and 3/5 against Baltimore.

They should be beating the bad teams.

Johnny Mostil
05-21-2008, 12:46 PM
And we'll have to have much better than 24-20 stretches to win this thing.

That'd work out to 88+ wins, no? Before the season started, I wouldn't have said that'd win the division, or even that the Sox would win that many. (And I would have freaked, being stuperstitious [sic] and knowing what happened after 24-20 last year.) But who knows?

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:47 PM
No, I was bastardizing a bastardized stat.

Pythagorean win total = number of expected wins based on run differential (as I understand it).

I don't know if there is such a term as "Pythagorean run total" but I assume you could generate a stat that would predict number of expected runs based on hits and walks or team OPS or something. I leave it to those who love to make up stats to come up with the exact formula if there isn't one already...:tongue:

Pythagorean run total is the RS +/- used to calculate the Pythagorean win total

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:51 PM
That'd work out to 88+ wins, no? Before the season started, I wouldn't have said that'd win the division, or even that the Sox would win that many. (And I would have freaked, being stuperstitious [sic] and knowing what happened after 24-20 last year.) But who knows?

We're looking better than I thought we would, but even with our pitching throwing out of its mind, we still have the least wins of any 1st place team in baseball. We don't look particularly strong, and it's only by virtue of a weak division that we're in first

Now, if our pitching continues to pitch out of their mind, our hitting improves, Burly rights the ship, and our bullpen doesn't tail off at all, then we should be a better team--one to feel confident about in the postseason.

However, what's most likely is that our offense improves, Burly improves, the bullpen stays the course and the rest of our rotation comes back down to earth. That should make us about as good as we are now--an 88 win team in a weak division.

That would be great--I'd love to make the playoffs. But no, asides from the awesome performances being turned out by Quentin and 4 out of our 5 starting pitchers, I'm still not particularly excited about this team. I'm excited to be in first, but this team is not playing particularly well on its way to being the best team, barely over .500, in a bad division

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 12:52 PM
Pythagorean run total is the RS +/- used to calculate the Pythagorean win total

Ah, okay, my bad... then call it Expected Run Total and calculate that.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:54 PM
Ah, okay, my bad... then call it Expected Run Total and calculate that.

Everyone knows the Sox's expected run total was 737.4

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 12:59 PM
Everyone knows the Sox's expected run total was 737.4

LOL...

Just think of the possibilities.

ERT-ETRA (Expected Total Runs Allowed) = Expected Pythagorean Wins.

It's the ultimate propellerhead's dream.

Cancel the season, the stats have spoken...

ArkanSox
05-21-2008, 12:59 PM
I really wish I woulndn't have burned my season tickets.
I laughed. :D:

pudge
05-21-2008, 01:01 PM
I long since learned you can't pay attention to the mood swings of fans, and even though I've said many times I'm not that excited about this team, I am *never* off the bandwagon, I've been on it since I was about 9 years old and always will be.

What excites me now is that nobody has run away with the division, and nobody at this point even looks capable of doing so. I'd say the Indians are in the same boat we are - they're getting great pitching but their lineup is struggling. Who knows if those things will flip as the season advances.

Just enjoy what should be a back and forth season, it's nice to see after last year!

fram40
05-21-2008, 01:04 PM
[quote=fquaye149;1898451]We're looking better than I thought we would, but even with our pitching throwing out of its mind, we still have the least wins of any 1st place team in baseball. We don't look particularly strong, and it's only by virtue of a weak division that we're in first


I'd like to point out that the Sox have played far fewer home games than the other first place teams

That will skew the number of wins

whitesox901
05-21-2008, 01:19 PM
Exactly. I'm glad we're in first place and pitching well. But we don't look particularly good at the plate.

Luckily, though, that's getting better, it seems like

:gulp:

A.T. Money
05-21-2008, 01:22 PM
Some teams can bury themselves with losing streaks like that. We've seen the Sox go into offensive shutdown for years!

Detroit still hasn't recovered from that 0-7 start, and if this division wasnt so busy exchanging blows, they'd be done by now.

It's Time
05-21-2008, 01:29 PM
This might be a stretch to say but I really think this is the White Sox division to LOSE. No one can match the pitching in the division and lets face it, that is what wins championships.

I had this team pegged for 79-83 wins. It might still shake out that way. That said, the division is a lot weaker then I thought.

:cool:

munchman33
05-21-2008, 01:34 PM
Yes, that's why his thumb is bothering him this season. A degenerative hip condition causes the thumb to swell; thus his "injuries seem to have caught up to him."

:rolleyes:

He kind of had a down year last year too.

Look, the point is he's getting older. He's showing a lot of wear. And his production is suffering. I don't expect him to hit .285 with 35 bombs anymore. He might, but it's isn't close to the expectation anymore.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 01:44 PM
He kind of had a down year last year too.

Look, the point is he's getting older. He's showing a lot of wear. And his production is suffering. I don't expect him to hit .285 with 35 bombs anymore. He might, but it's isn't close to the expectation anymore.

Why because he hasn't done it since 2006?

He averaged better than that from 2004-2006 and last year was certainly within one standard deviation from those numbers (.259/31) and that was with no protection the first half of the year.

I guess time will tell, but I think it's silly to use one slightly down year and a bad start to the following year to project an immediate and inevitable decline at the age of 32.

jabrch
05-21-2008, 01:49 PM
The hits are coming. It's not up to where we'd like to see it currently, but at least they are hitting the ball better more consistently. The Sox may never hit their "Pythagorean run total" for the season, but if they keep putting up double digit hits, they should score enough to win most games.

Screw Pythagoras. How many hits does he have? How many teams has he managed? How many players has he coached? How many franchises has he built? How many games has he SEEN?

Madscout
05-21-2008, 02:17 PM
I don't see this pitching going into a slump in the near future. It isn't like they have been pitching gimmicks: funky deliveries, wierd pitches, strange arm angles that have guys fooled. They loose when they don't locate and are not throwing their breaking pitches for strikes. They have killed when they have located their pitches where they wanted and thrown their breaking stuff for strikes. I don't know a MLB pitcher who won't suceed at the MLB level if he does that.

asindc
05-21-2008, 02:24 PM
Screw Pythagoras. How many hits does he have? How many teams has he managed? How many players has he coached? How many franchises has he built? How many games has he SEEN?

Hear, Hear! Folks, leave the propellers hats and spreadsheets alone and WATCH the games. What I'm seeing so far is a Sox team that is poised to contend for a playoff spot, while not having reached its potential yet.

bluestar
05-21-2008, 03:12 PM
This might be a stretch to say but I really think this is the White Sox division to LOSE. No one can match the pitching in the division and lets face it, that is what wins championships.

I had this team pegged for 79-83 wins. It might still shake out that way. That said, the division is a lot weaker then I thought.

:cool:

I had to go to a graduation dinner thing for my nephew on Sunday, and I had the radio in the car tuned to ESPN listening to The Baseball Show. Steve Phillips was on, of course, and he made the comment that the Sox weren't going to stay on top of the AL Central. His reasoning? "Their pitching is nowhere near the pitching of the Indians."

I just shook my head at another one of Phillips' inane remarks (he also said almost the entire 2005 season that the Sox couldn't keep winning consistently) and changed the station.

jdm2662
05-21-2008, 03:35 PM
We've got a LONG way to go before we know where this team is going. I did not get overally excited about the first three weeks, totally upset for the next two, or overally happy now. The pitching has been fantastic. No question about it. The hitting while not great, it's not dead last in baseball like it was last year. Call me in August to ask me what I think. Until then, I will sit and enjoy the games and hope for the best.

munchman33
05-21-2008, 04:13 PM
Why because he hasn't done it since 2006?

He averaged better than that from 2004-2006 and last year was certainly within one standard deviation from those numbers (.259/31) and that was with no protection the first half of the year.

I guess time will tell, but I think it's silly to use one slightly down year and a bad start to the following year to project an immediate and inevitable decline at the age of 32.

No, not because he hasn't since 2006. Because he hasn't since 2006 and he has arthritis in his hip. That's why. It's too much to ignore.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 05:05 PM
No, not because he hasn't since 2006. Because he hasn't since 2006 and he has arthritis in his hip. That's why. It's too much to ignore.

PK has adamantly denied he has a degeneretive hip condition. It was a rumor that swirled many years ago, but hasn't popped up in a while. Do you have some new evidence or are you going off of memory from those threads prior to his breaking out in a big way 3 of the last 4 years?

Bob G
05-21-2008, 06:10 PM
This might be a stretch to say but I really think this is the White Sox division to LOSE. No one can match the pitching in the division and lets face it, that is what wins championships.

I had this team pegged for 79-83 wins. It might still shake out that way. That said, the division is a lot weaker then I thought.

:cool:
That's about what I figured as well - the big difference this year is the number of wins it will take to win the division. In previous years it was about 95 wins, this year it might not even take 90 wins. It also looks like the wild card team will be from another division.

Frontman
05-21-2008, 06:21 PM
PK has adamantly denied he has a degeneretive hip condition. It was a rumor that swirled many years ago, but hasn't popped up in a while. Do you have some new evidence or are you going off of memory from those threads prior to his breaking out in a big way 3 of the last 4 years?

Clearly there's evidence Voodoo. His thumb has been acting up; and the only explanation for that?

A degenerative hip condition.

munchman33
05-21-2008, 06:26 PM
PK has adamantly denied he has a degeneretive hip condition. It was a rumor that swirled many years ago, but hasn't popped up in a while. Do you have some new evidence or are you going off of memory from those threads prior to his breaking out in a big way 3 of the last 4 years?

None, other than the numerous reports of anonymous White Sox personnel admitting the condition to reporters while Konerko was a free agent after the 2005 season.

So either he does have one, or our front office is full of lying bastards. You pick. I'd like to think it's the former.

Daver
05-21-2008, 07:19 PM
So either he does have one, or our front office is full of lying bastards. You pick. I'd like to think it's the former.

When did you start working for the White Sox?

MarySwiss
05-21-2008, 07:23 PM
Clearly there's evidence Voodoo. His thumb has been acting up; and the only explanation for that?

A degenerative hip condition.

Actually, I think that's more likely the result of "athlete's thumb."

Frontman
05-21-2008, 07:27 PM
Actually, I think that's more likely the result of "athlete's thumb."

No, no, no. How could that be? Then Konerko has been lying, LYING I TELL YOU, to all of us for years. If the thumb injury is something that has "caught up with him" it had to have been there for years, YEARS I SAY!!!

:thud:

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 11:12 PM
None, other than the numerous reports of anonymous White Sox personnel admitting the condition to reporters while Konerko was a free agent after the 2005 season.

So either he does have one, or our front office is full of lying bastards. You pick. I'd like to think it's the former.

Okay, let me get this straight...

You are claiming it was pretty much widely known in the Sox front office that PK has a bad hip. One that will fail. One that will prevent him from being a good player. He's 32 and the effects are already so pronounced that we can pretty much stick a fork in him...

Okay...

So why would they give him a 5 year $65M contract?

Oh that's right, he gave JR the ball...:rolleyes:

Frater Perdurabo
05-22-2008, 07:38 AM
ERT-ETRA (Expected Total Runs Allowed) = Expected Pythagorean Wins.

It's the ultimate propellerhead's dream.

Cancel the season, the stats have spoken...

That stat would be more reliable if we divided it by sum of the cube root of pi and the bone density of PK's hip joint.

:tongue: