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View Full Version : When did being a fan become assuming the role of an expert?


drillrod
05-20-2008, 01:07 PM
Does being a fan entitle anyone to espouse expert opinions as to the discharge of duties of a professional athlete or staff member? In our legal system there exists a criteria for providing such opinions.....besides being helpful to a jury's understanding of a particular issue, the expert opinion elicited must have a basis.....not only in fact....but also as to the qualifications of that particular expert....such as training, experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Now, all experts are on the same level...that is why some are rejected by jurors and others are accepted as being credible. I think a fan is nothing more than a lay wtness that is restricted to his or her observations and cannot reach the expet level without attaining the appropriate training or accumulating the requisite experience. So, I think fans should be just that....a fan is someone who supports a particular team...not a critic of that team...and certainly not an expert......so, lets stop assuming the role of an expert and refrain from espousing on matters we only display minimal knowledge in.....such as coaching or managing.... and when offering our opinions lets designate them as just that...OUR OPINIONS....and not try to bolster them by suggesting we have some expertise in the area....

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 01:09 PM
Fans have always second-guessed coaching and management decisions.

Generally this has been the most enthusiastic fans who have done this. The most enthusiastic fans are generally the ones who will congregate on message boards.

Therefore, message boards will have a disproportionately high portion of "second-guessing"

Any more questions?

itsnotrequired
05-20-2008, 01:10 PM
ultimate tirade

Mr.1Dog
05-20-2008, 01:11 PM
Last time I checked, the fans pay these athlete's salaries giving us the right to critique the team. It's like being a stock holder of a company and having the right to vote in certain matters of said company.

cws05champ
05-20-2008, 01:12 PM
That's what this site is about. Our opinions. I'm not sure who directly you meant this for, but you are not going to make a lot of friends on here with these threads.

itsnotrequired
05-20-2008, 01:17 PM
Last time I checked, the fans pay these athlete's salaries giving us the right to critique the team. It's like being a stock holder of a company and having the right to vote in certain matters of said company.

The owners pay the salaries. I have yet to write a check or directly give cash to a player.

Mr.1Dog
05-20-2008, 01:19 PM
The owners pay the salaries. I have yet to write a check or directly give cash to a player.

Indirectly the fans pay the salaries.

itsnotrequired
05-20-2008, 01:20 PM
Indirectly the fans pay the salaries.

And indirectly, the players pay yours.

:shrug:

soxfan13
05-20-2008, 01:22 PM
The owners pay the salaries. I have yet to write a check or directly give cash to a player.

Geez you are so picky:rolleyes::tongue::gulp:

ondafarm
05-20-2008, 01:23 PM
Drillrod, a word of advice from someone who's had a few threads locked in his day. Be cool. One thread locked means you should lie low and not throw any bombs for a day or two. I'm not saying don't post, but multiple diatribes per day can get you in trouble.

Mr.1Dog
05-20-2008, 01:23 PM
And indirectly, the players pay yours.

:shrug:

Surly only looks out for Surly

doublem23
05-20-2008, 01:25 PM
I'm pretty sure none of the players or coaches from the White Sox reads these boards regularly and goes home and cries themselves to sleep. I'm sure the opinion of other guys in the MLB's good old boys club are far more important to them.

This is a fans site, a place were we can congregate and talk, discuss, celebrate, or bitch about our Sox. I don't think any of us claim to have any sway over any decision makers for the White Sox. We are just a community of fans who come together to talk about the White Sox, because it's our passion.

That said, a lot of us have either played baseball at some level and/or have been watching the game for a number of years. We're not a bunch of bumpkins that have no knowledge of the game. Most of us are quick enough to notice when someone (i.e. Greg Walker) sucks at his job.

asindc
05-20-2008, 01:28 PM
And indirectly, the players pay yours.

:shrug:

How so? Not being sarcastic. I understand how fans (like myself) feel that we are paying the players with the ticket prices, concession costs, merchandise purchases, and radio/TV advertising listening/viewing, but the players paying the fans' salaries? Don't get it.

Over By There
05-20-2008, 01:32 PM
Drillrod, despite asking everyone here at WSI to provide their credentials before they dare voice an opinion, you haven't offered what makes you any more of an expert. Reading between the lines, it would seem you are an athlete or former athlete, a journalist, broadcaster, or involved in the management of a team.

If that's the case, you're fighting an uphill battle with a group of people on a message board. Many people that post on message boards do so because they're looking for an outlet outside of the meaningless drivel that the teams and mass media force feed the public. There is a growing army of the sports establishment, lead by old media journalists, that would seemingly rather have us lowly fans "stay in our place" and realize that the players and the beat writers could forget more about the game than any fan could possibly learn.

I'll admit I don't know as much about the game as a player or someone who's at the ballpark every day. So I respect the perspective of experts, and I would certainly respect yours more if we knew what your credentials really are. But again, to come on a message board, demanding that people stop spouting off opinions... it's more of the same "stay in your place" schtick. Not going to work, because the internet is an open forum, for better or worse. Your best bet is to be reasonable, and add your perspective in a relatively non-confrontational way. Not everyone on these here intarwebs is reasonable, but those of us that are will respect your opinion more if you engage the group constructively.

doublem23
05-20-2008, 01:33 PM
How so? Not being sarcastic. I understand how fans (like myself) feel that we are paying the players with the ticket prices, concession costs, merchandise purchases, and radio/TV advertising listening/viewing, but the players paying the fans' salaries? Don't get it.

Players take their salaries and turn around and buy stuff with it. Your paycheck will have your company logo on it, but somebody is sending your company money.

Basically, it's one big economic cycle.

itsnotrequired
05-20-2008, 01:34 PM
How so? Not being sarcastic. I understand how fans (like myself) feel that we are paying the players with the ticket prices, concession costs, merchandise purchases, and radio/TV advertising listening/viewing, but the players paying the fans' salaries? Don't get it.

The players are functioning members of society. They spend money on products and services in their everyday lives. Purchasing these products/services allow the businesses that manufacture the products or provide the service to stay in business. These businesses in turn hire employees to work there, employees such as yourself.

So using the same logic of "fans pay player salaries", it can be demonstrated that players pay fans' salaries.

drillrod
05-20-2008, 01:38 PM
It is interesting that someone can be threatened with being banned from this site for making what someone perceives as personal attacks on another member....but there is no threat of banishment or even a call for civility when one of you bloggers makes personal comments about a coach or player....and even use vulgar terms...such as "suck".... I would like to be present when one of you have the nerve to tell Ozzie, Kenny, Coop...or preferably.. Walk... that they "suck"....when you tell them personally...then I will have more respect for you....and also that would require you to take a trip out of your mother's basement and into the sunlight....

Harry Potter
05-20-2008, 01:38 PM
:whocares:threadblows:

asindc
05-20-2008, 01:40 PM
The players are functioning members of society. They spend money on products and services in their everyday lives. Purchasing these products/services allow the businesses that manufacture the products or provide the service to stay in business. These businesses in turn hire employees to work there, employees such as yourself.

So using the same logic of "fans pay player salaries", it can be demonstrated that players pay fans' salaries.

Not quite, IMO. Fans spending money at the ball park is more directly related to the players' salaries than players buying goods and thereby circulating that money into commerce. We all indirectly pay each others' salaries in the latter case, while if (God forbid) Sox fans just stop going to games, Reinsdorf would have a very tough time paying his players.

jenn2080
05-20-2008, 01:41 PM
It is interesting that someone can be threatened with being banned from this site for making what someone perceives as personal attacks on another member....but there is no threat of banishment or even a call for civility when one of you bloggers makes personal comments about a coach or player....and even use vulgar terms...such as "suck".... I would like to be present when one of you have the nerve to tell Ozzie, Kenny, Coop...or preferably.. Walk... that they "suck"....when you tell them personally...then I will have more respect for you....and also that would require you to take a trip out of your mother's basement and into the sunlight....


Someone needs to jump off that horse. I am guessing someone has no problem going up to any of the coaches and telling them they suck. What gives you a right to come on this board and start talking ****?

EndemicSox
05-20-2008, 01:42 PM
Some of us played the game through college, and I'm sure a handfull played professionaly, baseball isn't rocket science...or comparable to the knowledge needed to be a lawyer, for that matter...

I'm not one to rip on the coaches, as I believe their effect on the game is minimal, nevertheless, if one of the WS coaches does something stupid, it's fun to second guess!

As for the players, again, scouting isn't rocket science, if an individual player isn't carrying his weight/getting undeserved playing time due to management giving him too much cash/etc...they should get called on it, but not to an extreme, of course...ie booing/threats/etc...hence this wonderful website where we can discuss a game we all love...

Over By There
05-20-2008, 01:44 PM
It is interesting that someone can be threatened with being banned from this site for making what someone perceives as personal attacks on another member....but there is no threat of banishment or even a call for civility when one of you bloggers makes personal comments about a coach or player....and even use vulgar terms...such as "suck".... I would like to be present when one of you have the nerve to tell Ozzie, Kenny, Coop...or preferably.. Walk... that they "suck"....when you tell them personally...then I will have more respect for you....and also that would require you to take a trip out of your mother's basement and into the sunlight....

Ah, the "mother's basement" comment. You had to know it was coming. How novel.

itsnotrequired
05-20-2008, 01:46 PM
Not quite, IMO. Fans spending money at the ball park is more directly related to the players' salaries than players buying goods and thereby circulating that money into commerce. We all indirectly pay each others' salaries in the latter case, while if (God forbid) Sox fans just stop going to games, Reinsdorf would have a very tough time paying his players.

I admit it isn't exactly the same but the overall ideas are there. All a ticket to the game gets you is the promise that they will play the game. If they play like crap, you can't get a refund. You can "vote with your pocketbook" and choose not to go to anymore games but most fans enjoy baseball too much to stop going altogether.

Besides, crunch the dollars you spend each year at the ballpark and see how it compares to player salaries. I crunched the numbers in 2006 and all my two Upper Reserve season tickets covered was an inning of play from Iguchi.:D:

jenn2080
05-20-2008, 01:46 PM
Ah, the "mother's basement" comment. You had to know it was coming. How novel.


Someone forgot to take his mature pills today. I guess I should go back into my mom's basement before she realizes I was online while she was at work. My mom is going to be so mad at me.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-20-2008, 01:50 PM
Someone forgot to take his mature pills today. I guess I should go back into my mom's basement before she realizes I was online while she was at work. My mom is going to be so mad at me.

:popcorn:

soxfan13
05-20-2008, 01:54 PM
:popcorn:

Its over already he pulled out the big punch early in the fight.:tongue:

VeeckAsInWreck
05-20-2008, 02:02 PM
drillrod, if that is your real name.

If it bothers you to read fans opinions on management, coaches, players, and the bat boy, then don't read the message boards. I don't agree with some of the stuff that is written here but I have the option of answering or ignoring it. If it truly bothers you, don't log in or lurk around here.

No one here is an expert or has claimed to be. Message boards are intended for those who want to throw out their 2 cents, and you just saw me throw mine.


http://acceptancewithjoy.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/twocents.gif

CHIsoxNation
05-20-2008, 02:05 PM
Its over already he pulled out the big punch early in the fight.:tongue:

That's too bad.

I find it interesting that he can ridicule and criticize everyone else when he knows nothing about anyone, but yet after being asked numerous times what his "credentials" were, he refuses to answer. Sounds like he's just looking for someone to admit he's not the only one living in his mommy's basement.

getonbckthr
05-20-2008, 02:06 PM
Someone forgot to take his mature pills today. I guess I should go back into my mom's basement before she realizes I was online while she was at work. My mom is going to be so mad at me.
I'm on AOL 3.0. My parents gotta be paying like a $0.25/min.

areilly
05-20-2008, 02:06 PM
I would like to be present when one of you have the nerve to tell Ozzie, Kenny, Coop...or preferably.. Walk... that they "suck"....when you tell them personally...then I will have more respect for you....and also that would require you to take a trip out of your mother's basement and into the sunlight....

As a fairly active and long-time blogger, I will explain to you right now in no uncertain terms why I won't be telling Ozzie or Kenny or whoever why I hate the Swisher trade, or why Brandon McCarthy should've been traded for Fonzie in 2006 rather than Danks and Masset, or how stupid it is to simultaneously gamble on unproven kids and guys whose best days are obviously behind them: I don't have the access and Sox personnel won't grant interviews to smaller sites like mine. Plain and simple. And yes, I've tried.

Get me ten minutes alone with any of them and I'll let you know how it goes. You can even come with and tell everyone how brave I was, and how brave you were for taking potshots at people who take potshots at people*.

This is a wildly different scenario than that of someone like Jay Mariotti who is actually in a position to be in the press box, the clubhouse, on the field, at press conferences, wherever, but CHOOSES NOT TO DO SO. I didn't make that choice, but only because it was never given to me. No one with even a shred of journalistic integrity would, so I can make no pretense of being anything other than a guy with ideas and (a lot of) opinions and the wherewithal to both inform and express those opinions.

I like writing and I have reason to believe I am good at it. I also like having an audience, and I've figured out how to build and maintain one. I also like trading notes more actively with like-minded and not-so-like-minded people on boards like WSI. But because Greg Walker won't come over to my barbecue this weekend, I should ignore all of those things? If I cut all that out, why, I'd lose my job and income and be forced to take some drastic measures. Maybe even move back into my mom's basement.


(*) Metapotshots?

spiffie
05-20-2008, 02:12 PM
I admit it isn't exactly the same but the overall ideas are there. All a ticket to the game gets you is the promise that they will play the game. If they play like crap, you can't get a refund. You can "vote with your pocketbook" and choose not to go to anymore games but most fans enjoy baseball too much to stop going altogether.

Besides, crunch the dollars you spend each year at the ballpark and see how it compares to player salaries. I crunched the numbers in 2006 and all my two Upper Reserve season tickets covered was an inning of play from Iguchi.:D:
I hope it was that inning where he hit the grand slam against Houston. That was cool!

Looking back, the money I spent in 2005, considering how short a time he was with the team (and thus only making major league money for a short while), I might have bought a Bobby Jenks save. I'm claiming Game 1 of the World Series.

cws05champ
05-20-2008, 02:43 PM
Players take their salaries and turn around and buy stuff with it. Your paycheck will have your company logo on it, but somebody is sending your company money.

Basically, it's one big economic cycle.
KW must be indirectly paying my salary, I'm only getting $0.50 instead of $1 from my employer! :tongue:

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:47 PM
I admit it isn't exactly the same but the overall ideas are there. All a ticket to the game gets you is the promise that they will play the game. If they play like crap, you can't get a refund. You can "vote with your pocketbook" and choose not to go to anymore games but most fans enjoy baseball too much to stop going altogether.

Besides, crunch the dollars you spend each year at the ballpark and see how it compares to player salaries. I crunched the numbers in 2006 and all my two Upper Reserve season tickets covered was an inning of play from Iguchi.:D:

It's like people complaining that the Simpsons suck because "without the loyal fans they would have never been successful"

spawn
05-20-2008, 03:12 PM
It is interesting that someone can be threatened with being banned from this site for making what someone perceives as personal attacks on another member....but there is no threat of banishment or even a call for civility when one of you bloggers makes personal comments about a coach or player....and even use vulgar terms...such as "suck".... I would like to be present when one of you have the nerve to tell Ozzie, Kenny, Coop...or preferably.. Walk... that they "suck"....when you tell them personally...then I will have more respect for you....and also that would require you to take a trip out of your mother's basement and into the sunlight....
Ah, drillrod. We hardly knew ye. But in rememberance of your valuable contributions, I've changed my location just for you.:smile:

the1tab
05-20-2008, 03:14 PM
Drillrod... He Gone

spawn
05-20-2008, 03:16 PM
Drillrod... He Gone
He obvviously lived up to his name.

daveeym
05-20-2008, 03:17 PM
Looking at his posting history I'm guessing he fell off the wagon again. Or is it on the wagon? Jerry? http://media.canada.com/67bc2623-9886-4c71-9f03-edf992a0aa3a/jseinfeld_375x375.jpg
I never could remember which it was.

KenBerryGrab
05-20-2008, 03:22 PM
I know the cat's gone, but it needs to be said: An appeal to authority is one of the major logical fallacies.

rdwj
05-20-2008, 03:29 PM
drillrod, if that is your real name.

:rolling:

kevingrt
05-20-2008, 03:50 PM
I know the cat's gone, but it needs to be said: An appeal to authority is one of the major logical fallacies.

Great call.

turners56
05-20-2008, 03:57 PM
I thought Drillrod was an expert when he said Greg Walker was the best hitting coach ever. :scratch:

GlassSox
05-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Does being a fan entitle anyone to espouse expert opinions as to the discharge of duties of a professional athlete or staff member? In our legal system there exists a criteria for providing such opinions.....besides being helpful to a jury's understanding of a particular issue, the expert opinion elicited must have a basis.....not only in fact....but also as to the qualifications of that particular expert....such as training, experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Now, all experts are on the same level...that is why some are rejected by jurors and others are accepted as being credible. I think a fan is nothing more than a lay wtness that is restricted to his or her observations and cannot reach the expet level without attaining the appropriate training or accumulating the requisite experience. So, I think fans should be just that....a fan is someone who supports a particular team...not a critic of that team...and certainly not an expert......so, lets stop assuming the role of an expert and refrain from espousing on matters we only display minimal knowledge in.....such as coaching or managing.... and when offering our opinions lets designate them as just that...OUR OPINIONS....and not try to bolster them by suggesting we have some expertise in the area....

Huh? :scratch:

Jjav829
05-20-2008, 04:10 PM
Huh? :scratch:

What? You can't see the similarities between the United States legal system and being a fan of a Major League Baseball team? It's like, totally the same thing. Sounds like someone needs more time out of his parent's basement!

GlassSox
05-20-2008, 04:13 PM
What? You can't see the similarities between the United States legal system and being a fan of a Major League Baseball team? It's like, totally the same thing. Sounds like someone needs more time out of his parent's basement!

Oh now I understand, thanks! :?:

JNS
05-20-2008, 04:14 PM
I hope it was that inning where he hit the grand slam against Houston. That was cool!

Looking back, the money I spent in 2005, considering how short a time he was with the team (and thus only making major league money for a short while), I might have bought a Bobby Jenks save. I'm claiming Game 1 of the World Series.

Really it's about us watching them on the tube and sitting through the ads.

In aggregate us ticket/beer/cap/sweatshirt/keyring/bumper sticker buyers do pay a fair piece of change, a lot of which pays salaries.

But the broadcast revenues also pay a bunch. Herm Schneider's too! And the ground crew. And Roger the groundskeeper.

As for them paying our salaries, well, I doubt too much dough filters back up from San Pedro de Marquaris (sp) or Caracas. Or Arizona where KW lives.

So no, in general the players don't pay our salaries, and in general, yes, we do pay theirs.

As for the late drillweed's screed, maybe DeVry or someplace can offer an AA degree in advanced fan opinionating.

kittle42
05-20-2008, 04:37 PM
As for the late drillweed's screed, maybe DeVry or someplace can offer an AA degree in advanced fan opinionating.

Hey, don't knock DeVry...not only are they serious about success, but they are the proud sponsors of this coming Thursday's Latino College Night at U.S. Cellular, which, by the way, I will be attending with a lovely college Latina. :cool:

PicktoCLick72
05-20-2008, 04:38 PM
I majored in Baseball and the Chicago White Sox, so I believe I am entitled to expert status.

MISoxfan
05-20-2008, 04:39 PM
I guess I'd better stop voting as well. I guess I can't even complain about rude customer service too. I'm not an expert in either of those things.

spawn
05-20-2008, 04:44 PM
I think I'll stop cutting my grass, or working on my landscape as I'm not a horticulturist.

Frontman
05-20-2008, 04:48 PM
Talk about just re-naming a thread. This is the continuation of the "Don't you dare complain about Greg Walker" thread!

E.G.O. Everyone's Got Opinions.

If anyone doesn't want to read what has to be said by the fans, they probably shouldn't go to a fans web forum and read.

Now excuse me, I'm off to start my "Lance Broadway should be our Ace" thread........

FedEx227
05-20-2008, 05:38 PM
I think I'll stop cutting my grass, or working on my landscape as I'm not a horticulturist.

How much does your mom give you for allowance?

Also are you required to do both front and back lawns?

And how are you able to withstand the sunlight for that length of time without having to retreat to your underground lair to continuing blogging? I usually can last a good 10-15 minutes before I must scurry into my basement and continue feasting on Star Crunches and Doritos.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-20-2008, 05:48 PM
Its over already he pulled out the big punch early in the fight.:tongue:

I saw that - but whenever I see jenn posting, I always come back!! :D:

MISoxfan
05-20-2008, 06:33 PM
My internet went out. I'm no expert, I guess I can't have an opinion about it.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 06:47 PM
Last time I checked, the fans pay these athlete's salaries giving us the right to critique the team. It's like being a stock holder of a company and having the right to vote in certain matters of said company.

No. You're more like a consumer who has a right to buy a product or not :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
05-20-2008, 06:48 PM
Alas poor Drillrod, I knew him well...

Seriously Drill if you are in the media (as I am) I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't embarrass the profession the way you have been with some of your posts.

No one ever said fans did know more then the "official" members of the team but that's part of what being a fan is.

Fans "second-guess", laugh, curse, cry, scream....that's why you follow the team, that's why you follow the sport.

Absolutely, positively, NOTHING wrong with that even if they do get things wrong.

Let's put it this way, ask Brooks Boyer of the Sox (a frequent visitor here at WSI) if he'd rather not have the fans care enough to comment, vent, offer suggestions and so forth. In a heartbeat he'd tell you that passionate Sox fans are EXACTLY what he wants.

Feel free to e-mail him.

Lip

SoxandtheCityTee
05-20-2008, 07:03 PM
Drillrod:

1. My mom's dead, and I hadn't lived with her since probably before you were born. You may not like the opinions you see here, but they can't in all cases be attributed to the poster's youthfulness or lack of worldliness.

2. You can't play gatekeeper for opinions in public discourse the way a judge does for courtroom testimony. The formal rules of evidence do not apply in day-to-day life either, right? We each decide every day what weight to give to hearsay (to pick just one example) as we go about our business.

3. Though you chose a bad analogy, let's stick with it for a moment. Juries are routinely instructed to evaluate a witness's credibility the same way they would decide if someone was telling the truth in an important matter in their own lives. This applies to the testimony of experts, too, once they are allowed by the judge to testify as such. So even in the courtroom, someone may decide not to listen to you if, say, your demeanor is extremely off-putting.

If you are or will be doing trial work, take it from me that someday you will hear a judge say: "I'll let it in, for whatever it's worth."

Then the judge will use the roll-eyes smilie.

A. Cavatica
05-20-2008, 07:18 PM
Drillrod -

Many WSI members know a lot about baseball, and some of them know more about baseball than certain members of the media or Sox organization. Just because you're in a profession doesn't automatically mean you're good at it.

But even if you don't know anything about baseball, you can make a strong case that Walker should be fired.

If it's a veteran team, and the hitting coach has no effect on the way the players hit, then his salary is a waste of money.

On the other hand, if the hitting coach bears responsibility for the way the players hit, then he should be fired for two years of poor performance.

If you think WSI members have no right to point this out, you don't understand free speech and you don't understand WSI.

MISoxfan
05-20-2008, 11:09 PM
No. You're more like a consumer who has a right to buy a product or not :rolleyes:

You may not have the right to make decisions for the team, but you sure as hell have the right to voice your opinion on it.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 11:32 PM
You may not have the right to make decisions for the team, but you sure as hell have the right to voice your opinion on it.

Certainly. Who said you don't?

You have the right to complain about Apple computers or McDonald's or the new Fallout Boy album too.

Big ****ing deal. You'd never say "I can complain about Apple because I'm the one paying Steve Jobs's salary"

Unless you were a huge douchebag.

You don't have the right to complain about the team "because you buy tickets". You have the right to complain about the team because this America and you have the right to free speech :rolleyes:

HebrewHammer
05-20-2008, 11:53 PM
http://members.optusnet.com.au/yeseron/Thread%20pics/this_thread_rocks.jpg

How dare fans have opinions and post them on a message board. Especially when they want to discuss a great man like Greg Walker.

kitekrazy
05-21-2008, 12:39 AM
Does being a fan entitle anyone to espouse expert opinions as to the discharge of duties of a professional athlete or staff member? In our legal system there exists a criteria for providing such opinions.....besides being helpful to a jury's understanding of a particular issue, the expert opinion elicited must have a basis.....not only in fact....but also as to the qualifications of that particular expert....such as training, experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Now, all experts are on the same level...that is why some are rejected by jurors and others are accepted as being credible. I think a fan is nothing more than a lay wtness that is restricted to his or her observations and cannot reach the expet level without attaining the appropriate training or accumulating the requisite experience. So, I think fans should be just that....a fan is someone who supports a particular team...not a critic of that team...and certainly not an expert......so, lets stop assuming the role of an expert and refrain from espousing on matters we only display minimal knowledge in.....such as coaching or managing.... and when offering our opinions lets designate them as just that...OUR OPINIONS....and not try to bolster them by suggesting we have some expertise in the area....

I could see Hawk or DJ saying something like this. Baseball is not a rocket science.

But I do think the modern day sports fan is often uncivil. Fights break out at little girl's softball games.

This post seems so..so..wussy.

jenn2080
05-21-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm on AOL 3.0. My parents gotta be paying like a $0.25/min.


You are so busted when that bill comes in the mail. Hopefully you can still watch the games while you are grounded.

spawn
05-21-2008, 09:10 AM
How much does your mom give you for allowance?

10 bucks a week. Talk about a sweet deal! :thumbsup:

Also are you required to do both front and back lawns?

Only the front lawns....but I negotiated for doing the back for an additional 5 bucks a week. My mom is such a pushover.

And how are you able to withstand the sunlight for that length of time without having to retreat to your underground lair to continuing blogging? I usually can last a good 10-15 minutes before I must scurry into my basement and continue feasting on Star Crunches and Doritos.
2 things...sunglasses and long sleeves. Of course, it takes me about 20 minutes to adjust to sunlight, but for 10 (sometimes 15) dollars a week, it's so worth the effort! :thumbsup:

AZChiSoxFan
05-21-2008, 12:02 PM
Does being a fan entitle anyone to espouse expert opinions as to the discharge of duties of a professional athlete or staff member? In our legal system there exists a criteria for providing such opinions.....besides being helpful to a jury's understanding of a particular issue, the expert opinion elicited must have a basis.....not only in fact....but also as to the qualifications of that particular expert....such as training, experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Now, all experts are on the same level...that is why some are rejected by jurors and others are accepted as being credible. I think a fan is nothing more than a lay wtness that is restricted to his or her observations and cannot reach the expet level without attaining the appropriate training or accumulating the requisite experience. So, I think fans should be just that....a fan is someone who supports a particular team...not a critic of that team...and certainly not an expert......so, lets stop assuming the role of an expert and refrain from espousing on matters we only display minimal knowledge in.....such as coaching or managing.... and when offering our opinions lets designate them as just that...OUR OPINIONS....and not try to bolster them by suggesting we have some expertise in the area....

My guess is that it happened about the time that it started costing a family of four between $150 and $200 to attend a single, regular season game.

Frontman
05-21-2008, 12:18 PM
My guess is that it happened about the time that it started costing a family of four between $150 and $200 to attend a single, regular season game.

I would say the second you bought your first ticket; you've got the right to enjoy and critique the product.

kittle42
05-21-2008, 12:20 PM
This whole thread made me think...why do people seem to use this argument only as it relates to sports? The next movie that gets bad word of mouth and horrible reviews should be defended by the studio when they say, "None of these people has ever made a movie in their life. They have no right to give an opinion on it."

Works the same way.

Frontman
05-21-2008, 12:23 PM
This whole thread made me think...why do people seem to use this argument only as it relates to sports? The next movie that gets bad word of mouth and horrible reviews should be defended by the studio when they say, "None of these people has ever made a movie in their life. They have no right to give an opinion on it."

Works the same way.

Don't kid yourself. I've seen a fair share of movie makers use that defense; especially when their film covers a controversy or hot topic issue.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:39 PM
This whole thread made me think...why do people seem to use this argument only as it relates to sports? The next movie that gets bad word of mouth and horrible reviews should be defended by the studio when they say, "None of these people has ever made a movie in their life. They have no right to give an opinion on it."

Works the same way.

But on the other hand, no one would ever say "I'm paying so and so actor's salary, therefore he has no right to complain about me asking for his autograph in the middle of dinner."

Frontman
05-21-2008, 12:52 PM
But on the other hand, no one would ever say "I'm paying so and so actor's salary, therefore he has no right to complain about me asking for his autograph in the middle of dinner."

Sure people do. TMZ and the rest of the papparazzi wouldn't exist if people didn't think they had a right to get as much info and such if people didn't think that way.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:56 PM
Sure people do. TMZ and the rest of the papparazzi wouldn't exist if people didn't think they had a right to get as much info and such if people didn't think that way.

Um, no. People don't demand any quality or professionalism from non-athlete celebrities on the grounds that "we pay der salaries der so dey shouldn't complain"

TMZ has nothing to do with that.

Only in professional sports do people have the asinine idea that they have some sort of authority over both management and personnell of a product they are a consumer of because they chose to purchase a product.

The only people who come close to that level of douchebaggery are douchebag apple computer fans

pudge
05-21-2008, 01:08 PM
Fans have always been like this, it's the Internet that has magnified it. So it used to be fans sitting in a bar talking like we do on WSI; now you see so many people spouting their ideas online, it actually becomes a little maddening. And then you see some schmo get *credit* for what he/she said online, and it drives you even crazier.

I think you have to make the adjustment to drown out or ignore the online noise - it was actually a hard adjustment for me to make. I always thought, "Who are all these people who think their opinion matters?" But then you realize to take it for what it is and only when you want it, and ignore the rest.

Jjav829
05-21-2008, 03:30 PM
This whole thread made me think...why do people seem to use this argument only as it relates to sports? The next movie that gets bad word of mouth and horrible reviews should be defended by the studio when they say, "None of these people has ever made a movie in their life. They have no right to give an opinion on it."

Works the same way.

I don't get it either. If I go out to dinner, and the quality of my food is poor for what I'm expecting, am I not allowed to have the opinion that the food is bad just because I couldn't cook it any better?

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 04:42 PM
I don't get it either. If I go out to dinner, and the quality of my food is poor for what I'm expecting, am I not allowed to have the opinion that the food is bad just because I couldn't cook it any better?

It's a two way street though. Unless you were a huge *******, you wouldn't boo the chef or make large pronouncements that he be fired and that management should especially value your opinion just because "I pay that chef's salary"

Unless you were a huge *******.

ondafarm
05-21-2008, 05:09 PM
It's a two way street though. Unless you were a huge *******, you wouldn't boo the chef or make large pronouncements that he be fired and that management should especially value your opinion just because "I pay that chef's salary"

Unless you were a huge *******.

I beg to differ. If my patronage says anything at a ballgame, it says the same at a restaurant. If I go to a particular brewpub a lot and never order onsite made beer, or at a classy place always refuse to eat the work of the dessert chef, then I am doing exactly the same thing. Oh, I'm not booing or calling for his firing, but if I choose to patronize or not the place and specificly the work of individuals, I am exercising my rights as a consummer. If management doesn't want to see it as "paying the chef's salary" so be it.

kittle42
05-21-2008, 05:09 PM
It's a two way street though. Unless you were a huge *******, you wouldn't boo the chef or make large pronouncements that he be fired and that management should especially value your opinion just because "I pay that chef's salary"

Unless you were a huge *******.

No, but some people would ask for their money back. That's just as bad.

TheVulture
05-21-2008, 05:12 PM
then I will have more respect for you
Why would anyone give a single solitary **** whether or not you have respect for them?

Eddo144
05-21-2008, 05:49 PM
I beg to differ. If my patronage says anything at a ballgame, it says the same at a restaurant. If I go to a particular brewpub a lot and never order onsite made beer, or at a classy place always refuse to eat the work of the dessert chef, then I am doing exactly the same thing. Oh, I'm not booing or calling for his firing, but if I choose to patronize or not the place and specificly the work of individuals, I am exercising my rights as a consummer. If management doesn't want to see it as "paying the chef's salary" so be it.
Eh, that's not really the same. If you're outspoken about your team's deficiencies, that's taking an active stance. If you simply don't order desserts from a restaurant, that's taking a passive stance. A better analogy would be if you just didn't cheer for certain players on the team.

Of course, no one would notice that. Just like the restaurant probably won't notice that you're not ordering dessert (unless you ate there multiple times per week).

And it's not that I necessarily disagree with your overall point; fans have every right to criticize their team. However, expecting that the teams owes it to them is a little absurd. The team owes it to itself, in the same way a restaurant doesn't need to make good food to explicitly satisfy customers, but rather to make enough money and succeed as an establishment.

Jjav829
05-21-2008, 05:50 PM
It's a two way street though. Unless you were a huge *******, you wouldn't boo the chef or make large pronouncements that he be fired and that management should especially value your opinion just because "I pay that chef's salary"

Unless you were a huge *******.

Complaints take different forms. In baseball, there is no direct way to express your displeasure to upper management. If it was possible, I'm sure there are a lot of people who would sit down with Kenny Williams and declare how disappointed they are with the hitting coach. But Kenny Williams' door isn't open to everyone. So that displeasure comes out in the form of booing or declarations for that person to lose their job.

Would anyone boo the chef or demand he be fired? No, particularly because most of the time the customers have no clue as to the identity of the chef. But have you never had dinner with someone who honestly answered the waiter or waitress when asked about their meal, and told them the steak was overcooked or there was too much garlic,etc.? Or have you ever had someone tell you about a bad experience at a restaurant (or any store) that ended with them informing the manager that they would never spend their money at that place again?

They are different situations. You can't apply the booing and the declarations for a firing to every scenario.

Frontman
05-21-2008, 06:11 PM
Um, no. People don't demand any quality or professionalism from non-athlete celebrities on the grounds that "we pay der salaries der so dey shouldn't complain"

TMZ has nothing to do with that.

Only in professional sports do people have the asinine idea that they have some sort of authority over both management and personnell of a product they are a consumer of because they chose to purchase a product.

The only people who come close to that level of douchebaggery are douchebag apple computer fans

We'll agree to disagree; but I know a number of people/have read a number of posts over the years to see people demand quality and professionalism from their celebrities.

Why else would people of steered clear of a Tom Cruise flick because of his recent bizarre behavior?

Why did the beef industry sue Oprah, and why was it national news?

Why was it that it was such a story that Mel Gibson acted like a complete and total boob when pulled over?

Why when Alexander bombed, people involved in making the film quickly pulled the "It's because it was an allegory of the Bush administration, and it hit too close to home for some." (No, its because it was a bad film, but I digress.)

Why is it that to avoid bad press, Vince McMahon stripped the title off of Rob Van Dam due to a drug arrest?

Why did A&E drop "Dog the Bounty Hunter" from its lineup for a full year after he used a derogatory racial word in a private conversation?

Because in fact; some will steer clear of going to a movie or paying for a show if the people involved are deemed by society to be not up to their standards. There are those who will overlook anything that someone does (Oprah's main audience didn't go away during the trial, much the opposite but some steered clear of her show.)

But by and large, there are some who will speak out with their time or their dollars and avoid a product or film by someone based on political views, personal beliefs, or simply; no matter how talented the guy is, that consumer thinks he's a moron.

The thing of it is that as our society, we pretty much by and large have turned into critics, some say cynics.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 07:50 PM
I beg to differ. If my patronage says anything at a ballgame, it says the same at a restaurant. If I go to a particular brewpub a lot and never order onsite made beer, or at a classy place always refuse to eat the work of the dessert chef, then I am doing exactly the same thing. Oh, I'm not booing or calling for his firing, but if I choose to patronize or not the place and specificly the work of individuals, I am exercising my rights as a consummer. If management doesn't want to see it as "paying the chef's salary" so be it.

That's pretty much my point. You wouldn't be an ******* at a restaurant, so don't be an ******* at the ballpark and boo a player for doing his job poorly.

If you don't like it, don't come watch the team.

Not only is booing counterproductive, it makes you look like an *******.

If a chef ****s up your food, throwing a hissy fit will make YOU look like the jerk. Comport yourself with class, whether you be in a restaurant or at the ballpark.

MISoxfan
05-21-2008, 11:24 PM
Certainly. Who said you don't?

You have the right to complain about Apple computers or McDonald's or the new Fallout Boy album too.

Big ****ing deal. You'd never say "I can complain about Apple because I'm the one paying Steve Jobs's salary"

Unless you were a huge douchebag.

You don't have the right to complain about the team "because you buy tickets". You have the right to complain about the team because this America and you have the right to free speech :rolleyes:

Who said I don't? The OP. But nice use of emotes, :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

fquaye149
05-22-2008, 07:52 AM
Who said I don't? The OP. But nice use of emotes, :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The OP has pretty much been established to be a "drillrod" so it would seem like we're pretty well past that point. The post of mine you replied to was in direct response (see, that's what the quote in my post meant) to a person claiming "since I buy tickets, I'm paying the players' salaries. I'm like a share holder in a company"

I was explaining why that was

a.) wrong
b.) an obnoxious attitude that many sports fans seem to have

so right back at you :rolleyes:

MISoxfan
05-22-2008, 09:58 AM
Yes, and I was agreeing with you.

digdagdug23
05-22-2008, 10:14 AM
Does being a fan entitle anyone to espouse expert opinions as to the discharge of duties of a professional athlete or staff member? In our legal system there exists a criteria for providing such opinions.....besides being helpful to a jury's understanding of a particular issue, the expert opinion elicited must have a basis.....not only in fact....but also as to the qualifications of that particular expert....such as training, experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Now, all experts are on the same level...that is why some are rejected by jurors and others are accepted as being credible. I think a fan is nothing more than a lay wtness that is restricted to his or her observations and cannot reach the expet level without attaining the appropriate training or accumulating the requisite experience. So, I think fans should be just that....a fan is someone who supports a particular team...not a critic of that team...and certainly not an expert......so, lets stop assuming the role of an expert and refrain from espousing on matters we only display minimal knowledge in.....such as coaching or managing.... and when offering our opinions lets designate them as just that...OUR OPINIONS....and not try to bolster them by suggesting we have some expertise in the area....

Hmmmm, what to say, what to say...............

1. I agree with Quaye that booing is obnoxious and makes you like like a ****ing idiot. That aspect of fans supposing to know more than the manager, GM, et al, is tiresome.

2. That being said, in reference to your initial post, if it weren't for the supposed know-it-all fans, especially the ones that post on message boards, I feel that my experience as a fan would be lesser for not having heard it. For all of the blow hards that like to feign knowledge, there are quite a few on this board and others that have increased my knowledge of the game, and taught me things I would have never paid attention to had they not 'spouted off'.

It's like any information, use a self-filter when listening. Sometimes you gain a small grain of knowledge from a giant pile of ****, you just have to sort through it sometimes to find it. Yes, your hands might smeel bad, but a little soap and water can wash away the smell, and you still end up with a prize.

Not all bring a good amount of knowledge to their repetoire, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut occassionally.

JNS
05-22-2008, 04:11 PM
Hey, don't knock DeVry...not only are they serious about success, but they are the proud sponsors of this coming Thursday's Latino College Night at U.S. Cellular, which, by the way, I will be attending with a lovely college Latina. :cool:

I wasn't knocking it - my wife teaches there. I was just trying to think of some random local college. I could have as easily said Daley or Northeastern IL.