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View Full Version : White Sox are 4th in American League: Runs Scored


TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 09:58 AM
With all of our offensive woes in April/May I was surprised to see the White Sox are ranked 4th in runs scored as a team as of today. I think we may be poised for a significant run if a few of the chronic slumpers (Thome, Konerko, Uribe) start to turn it around and the others that are showing signs of life (Cabrera, Swisher) continue to rebound. Of the teams in the "top 5" runs scored in the AL...out team BA is ridiculously lower. It looks like if we just hit in the .260s we might be chasing Boston for the league lead.

Boston- .295
Texas- .272
LAA- .268
White Sox- .247
Tampa Bay- .265I was also surprised to see that we're 4th in the league in hitting w/RISP....284.

btrain929
05-19-2008, 10:02 AM
With all of our offensive woes in April/May I was surprised to see the White Sox are ranked 4th in runs scored as a team as of today. I think we may be poised for a significant run if a few of the chronic slumpers (Thome, Konerko, Uribe) start to turn it around and the others that are showing signs of life (Cabrera, Swisher) continue to rebound. Of the teams in the "top 5" runs scored in the AL...out team BA is ridiculously lower. It looks like if we just hit in the .260s we might be chasing Boston for the league lead.

Boston- .295
Texas- .272
LAA- .268
White Sox- .247
Tampa Bay- .265I was also surprised to see that we're 4th in the league in hitting w/RISP....284.

Not to take credit away from the Sox, but Sunday definitely helped with the runs scored and hitting w/ RISP.

SoxGirl4Life
05-19-2008, 10:04 AM
With all of our offensive woes in April/May I was surprised to see the White Sox are ranked 4th in runs scored as a team as of today. I think we may be poised for a significant run if a few of the chronic slumpers (Thome, Konerko, Uribe) start to turn it around and the others that are showing signs of life (Cabrera, Swisher) continue to rebound. Of the teams in the "top 5" runs scored in the AL...out team BA is ridiculously lower. It looks like if we just hit in the .260s we might be chasing Boston for the league lead.

Boston- .295
Texas- .272
LAA- .268
White Sox- .247
Tampa Bay- .265I was also surprised to see that we're 4th in the league in hitting w/RISP....284.


When we're going bad we have games of two kind:

Leaving 100 men on base or
Getting no one on base

Both are frustrating, but if I was forced to pick, I'd rather HAVE the guys on base to have a chance to score than the crap we saw in Toronto.

jabrch
05-19-2008, 10:29 AM
I would never have known that our offense is that productive from reading message boards. I guess that's why it makes sense to watch games!

TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 10:40 AM
I would never have known that our offense is that productive from reading message boards. I guess that's why it makes sense to watch games!

The stats show how inconsistent we are...to have a disastrous week like we had in Minn/Tor (basically 1/7th of the season) and still be 4th surprised me.

White City
05-19-2008, 10:43 AM
Two perspectives to always consider: Objective and subjective.

Subjectively, the offense has been bad. That is, compare it to what we have grown accustomed to as the subjective standard for a good offense across all franchises in recent decades, the 2008 offense has not met the standard.

Objectively, the offense has been better than we give it credit. This is because nearly the entire AL is struggling this season. We've all read the stories about the league-wide offensive slump this year. So the objective statistical comparison shows that our 2008 offense is above-standard in some ways, despite our groaning.

The former criteria is more likely to have bearing on how this season finishes and is the cause for our concern; the latter gives us some hope for the near term.

TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 10:48 AM
Objectively, the offense has been better than we give it credit. This is because nearly the entire AL is struggling this season. We've all read the stories about the league-wide offensive slump this year. So the objective statistical comparison shows that our 2008 offense is above-standard in some ways, despite our groaning.

Excellent point. We're 4th in the AL...but 14th in MLB overall. 10 National League teams (WITHOUT the benefit of the DH) are ahead of his.

kingpin_rcs
05-19-2008, 11:06 AM
The stats show how inconsistent we are...to have a disastrous week like we had in Minn/Tor (basically 1/7th of the season) and still be 4th surprised me.

1/7th of the season is 23 games. That road trip was only 6 games.

White City
05-19-2008, 11:12 AM
1/7th of the season is 23 games. That road trip was only 6 games.

I presumed he meant season "to date"

Could be wrong.

jabrch
05-19-2008, 11:18 AM
The stats show how inconsistent we are...to have a disastrous week like we had in Minn/Tor (basically 1/7th of the season) and still be 4th surprised me.


What statistic are you using to measure inconsistency and how do we actually rank in it compared to other teams? I would guess the best statistical measure of consistency would be measuring the standard deviation of runs scored and compare that to other teams? Or are you doing it differently? I'd be curious to see how much more inconsistent we are than other teams, or if we just feel it more. I'm not sure either way.

jabrch
05-19-2008, 11:26 AM
Excellent point. We're 4th in the AL...but 14th in MLB overall. 10 National League teams (WITHOUT the benefit of the DH) are ahead of his.


...and without having to face the AL pitchers.

I was at a training course a few weeks ago and we did a business simulation. The class of 52 were divided into two different "universes" where there was no cross competition, and the simulations were completely independent. This was because the software was limited to a number of groups per instance that it was running. Baseball is similar in that the AL and NL are two different populations of players. I don't really care where we are ranked in comparison to the NL because, outside of internleague play (and we have gotten off to a good start there), it is irrelevant. Frankly, I'm not even so concerned about where we rank in terms of total runs scored since we don't play 1 game where the results are summed up. What I care most about is how many individual events (games) we exceed the number or runs our opponents score by 1. That's much more important to me. Now I know there are a lot of input measures that factor into that, but you can't completely control the outcome of the games just by manipulating the inputs and until we get closer to the deadline we can't really manipulate the inputs anyhow, so I'm going to enjoy watching what is a pretty damn good baseball team go out there every night and keep on playing.

If they play like they have before and after that 6 game stretch vs Minny and Toronto, they will continue to win a lot of ball games. I see no reason to believe this can't happen. I see no reason to believe this team can not be a contender all season.

voodoochile
05-19-2008, 11:39 AM
...and without having to face the AL pitchers.

I was at a training course a few weeks ago and we did a business simulation. The class of 52 were divided into two different "universes" where there was no cross competition, and the simulations were completely independent. This was because the software was limited to a number of groups per instance that it was running. Baseball is similar in that the AL and NL are two different populations of players. I don't really care where we are ranked in comparison to the NL because, outside of internleague play (and we have gotten off to a good start there), it is irrelevant. Frankly, I'm not even so concerned about where we rank in terms of total runs scored since we don't play 1 game where the results are summed up. What I care most about is how many individual events (games) we exceed the number or runs our opponents score by 1. That's much more important to me. Now I know there are a lot of input measures that factor into that, but you can't completely control the outcome of the games just by manipulating the inputs and until we get closer to the deadline we can't really manipulate the inputs anyhow, so I'm going to enjoy watching what is a pretty damn good baseball team go out there every night and keep on playing.

If they play like they have before and after that 6 game stretch vs Minny and Toronto, they will continue to win a lot of ball games. I see no reason to believe this can't happen. I see no reason to believe this team can not be a contender all season.

This team will be stronger in the months to come when it gets healthier and more experienced. Confidence will play a role in the development of the young pitchers and players like Ramirez and Richar (hopefully he comes back strong) and down the road this team will be capable of playing with anyone.

Just the way I see things.

jabrch
05-19-2008, 11:49 AM
This team will be stronger in the months to come when it gets healthier and more experienced. Confidence will play a role in the development of the young pitchers and players like Ramirez and Richar (hopefully he comes back strong) and down the road this team will be capable of playing with anyone.

Just the way I see things.

There is no reason not to believe that will happen Voo...

kingpin_rcs
05-19-2008, 11:58 AM
I presumed he meant season "to date"

Could be wrong.

Oh, could be. If so, my bad. :redface:

TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 12:30 PM
1/7th of the season is 23 games. That road trip was only 6 games.

I meant 1/7 of the season so far.

TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 12:36 PM
...and without having to face the AL pitchers.

I was at a training course a few weeks ago and we did a business simulation. The class of 52 were divided into two different "universes" where there was no cross competition, and the simulations were completely independent. This was because the software was limited to a number of groups per instance that it was running. Baseball is similar in that the AL and NL are two different populations of players. I don't really care where we are ranked in comparison to the NL because, outside of internleague play (and we have gotten off to a good start there), it is irrelevant. Frankly, I'm not even so concerned about where we rank in terms of total runs scored since we don't play 1 game where the results are summed up. What I care most about is how many individual events (games) we exceed the number or runs our opponents score by 1. That's much more important to me. Now I know there are a lot of input measures that factor into that, but you can't completely control the outcome of the games just by manipulating the inputs and until we get closer to the deadline we can't really manipulate the inputs anyhow, so I'm going to enjoy watching what is a pretty damn good baseball team go out there every night and keep on playing.

If they play like they have before and after that 6 game stretch vs Minny and Toronto, they will continue to win a lot of ball games. I see no reason to believe this can't happen. I see no reason to believe this team can not be a contender all season.

I agree with you. I was just connecting the dots...13th best batting average is yielding the 4th highest runs. I believe they should rise to the middle of the pack in batting average...so I'm optimistic that they could become one of the best offenses (as measured by runs scored).

Madscout
05-19-2008, 04:02 PM
If we keep pitching out of our minds like this, it won't matter.

I would like to see pitching like we had this road trip all year.

I would like to see the offense act like we had yesterday, jump on them early and when they score, answer...

LoveYourSuit
05-19-2008, 04:39 PM
I would never have known that our offense is that productive from reading message boards. I guess that's why it makes sense to watch games!


Well, the message boards are not too far off when they complain about quality start after quality start being pissed away by this offense.

I would like to see our loss record when pitching a quality start, we might be at the top of the league there also.

Bottom line, had we be hitting just our averages in April and May, we would have a 5-6 game leading in the division right now.

Hitmen77
05-19-2008, 08:47 PM
With all of our offensive woes in April/May I was surprised to see the White Sox are ranked 4th in runs scored as a team as of today. I think we may be poised for a significant run if a few of the chronic slumpers (Thome, Konerko, Uribe) start to turn it around and the others that are showing signs of life (Cabrera, Swisher) continue to rebound. Of the teams in the "top 5" runs scored in the AL...out team BA is ridiculously lower. It looks like if we just hit in the .260s we might be chasing Boston for the league lead.
Boston- .295
Texas- .272
LAA- .268
White Sox- .247
Tampa Bay- .265I was also surprised to see that we're 4th in the league in hitting w/RISP....284.

Definitely. It's amazing that we're 1.5 games up with Konerko, Thome, OC, and Swisher all hovering around .210. If we can just get these guys going AND keep up our level of pitching,..

Tragg
05-19-2008, 10:36 PM
Let's see - Sox are 13th in batting average and 4th in run scored....pretty good evidence that batting average is a weak statistic. ON the other hand, the sox are 3rd in Slugging and 6th in obp...yes indeed,walks count and they count a lot.

TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 10:51 PM
Let's see - Sox are 13th in batting average and 4th in run scored....pretty good evidence that batting average is a weak statistic.

Boston- #1 Runs Scored/#1 Batting Avg.
Texas- #2 Runs Scored/#2 Batting Avg.
LAA- #3 Runs Scored/#3 Batting Avg.
White Sox- #4 Runs Scored/#13 Batting Avg.
Tampa Bay- #5 Runs Scored/#4 Batting Avg.Looks like a pretty good one to me. :cool: The White Sox are an anomaly.

sox1970
05-19-2008, 10:53 PM
I would like to see our loss record when pitching a quality start, we might be at the top of the league there also.

Sox record with a QS: 19-7-1

jabrch
05-19-2008, 10:56 PM
Tom - still curious as to what statistic shows we are more inconcistent than any other AL Contender. What statistic were you looking at?

TomBradley72
05-19-2008, 11:05 PM
Tom - still curious as to what statistic shows we are more inconcistent than any other AL Contender. What statistic were you looking at?

I was going more on gut feel and watching the team. No real statistic. With 1/7th of the season to date a week when they barely scored any runs...than there must have been a week at the other end of the spectrum to still be among the league leaders in runs scored. Maybe I should run all the data through minitab...

Tragg
05-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Boston- #1 Runs Scored/#1 Batting Avg.
Texas- #2 Runs Scored/#2 Batting Avg.
LAA- #3 Runs Scored/#3 Batting Avg.
White Sox- #4 Runs Scored/#13 Batting Avg.
Tampa Bay- #5 Runs Scored/#4 Batting Avg.Looks like a pretty good one to me. :cool: The White Sox are an anomaly.
Here's another anomaly - the Royals are 5th in batting avereage and last in runs scored....too many anomalies.
On the other hand, 5 of the top 6 obp teams are in the top 6 in runs scored; and the one who isn't is 7th or 8th. The same is true for slugging. OBP and slugging need to go together though. Toronto, for example, is 7th in obp but near the bottom in runs because of their dismal slugging.

The Sox seemed to have walked more than usual (although that seems to have been early and somewhat forgotten lately) and the power remains.



Some other interesting stats: last in steals; 2nd to last in triples; 2nd to last in 2 out RISP hitting (using OBP); but 3rd in bases loaded hitting.

jabrch
05-19-2008, 11:14 PM
I was going more on gut feel and watching the team. No real statistic. With 1/7th of the season to date a week when they barely scored any runs...than there must have been a week at the other end of the spectrum to still be among the league leaders in runs scored. Maybe I should run all the data through minitab...


LOL....

No - no reason... I'm not sure what the statistics say either. I know what my gut says - and that's fine. I was wondering if anyone had done he stats work to measure consistency. As far as academic discussions go, I'd also be curious if teams with a greater degree of consistency (less scatter in their runs scored) tend to win more games or win fewer games.

Either way - I get to pencil**** statistics all day where they are relevant. You can damn well bet I won't do it for fun where it has very little connection to reality.

Frater Perdurabo
05-20-2008, 06:43 AM
OBP is very nice. It's a worthwhile statistic. I like OBP. But an OBP that is weighted heavily on walks can be misleading.

On one hand, it shows that the hitters are patient and working counts.

On the other hand, if a team makes the playoffs, they are going to find it's much tougher to work walks against pitchers on playoff teams.

In the playoffs, a team also must be able to come up with timely hits.

The Sox have proven, time and again, that they are simply terrible at hitting soft-tossing lefties and recent callups. They need to be able to pound on these guys instead of making them look like Cy Young.

Craig Grebeck
05-20-2008, 07:14 AM
OBP is very nice. It's a worthwhile statistic. I like OBP. But an OBP that is weighted heavily on walks can be misleading.

On one hand, it shows that the hitters are patient and working counts.

On the other hand, if a team makes the playoffs, they are going to find it's much tougher to work walks against pitchers on playoff teams.

In the playoffs, a team also must be able to come up with timely hits.

The Sox have proven, time and again, that they are simply terrible at hitting soft-tossing lefties and recent callups. They need to be able to pound on these guys instead of making them look like Cy Young.
This has been debunked before -- it's a very faulty line of thinking.