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gregoriop
05-19-2008, 10:40 AM
I've been a fan of the game since I was a kid, but there are some things I do not understand. Hopefully, you do too and we can take advantage at some of the smart baseball people here.

My question is: What are those dirt circles near home plate on the 1st and 3rd base paths? Some parks don't have them. What are they used for?

CHIsoxNation
05-19-2008, 10:42 AM
I've been a fan of the game since I was a kid, but there are some things I do not understand. Hopefully, you do too and we can take advantage at some of the smart baseball people here.

My question is: What are those dirt circles near home plate on the 1st and 3rd base paths? Some parks don't have them. What are they used for?

I'm pretty sure they are meant for the ground ball drills before the game. The coach or whoever is hitting the grounders usually stands in that circle to keep from digging up the field.

Bucky F. Dent
05-19-2008, 10:44 AM
I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have one of my own.

Maybe I'm just very, very, very slow (which is a distinct possiblitiy :?:), but I have never been able to tell the difference between curveballs, sliders and changeups when watching the game on TV. Frankly, a well thrown knuckleball is probably the only pitch that I could identify on sight.

So help me out here, what am I missing, what do I need to be looking at?

itsnotrequired
05-19-2008, 10:46 AM
I'm pretty sure they are meant for the ground ball drills before the game. The coach or whoever is hitting the grounders usually stands in that circle to keep from digging up the field.

Correct. The ones you see today are there more for asthetic purposes as most of the whole home plate are is tarped during BP anyway. They have the circles at the Cell but if you ever catch BP, you'll see they are tarped. Most stadiums don't have them anymore.

CHIsoxNation
05-19-2008, 10:56 AM
I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have one of my own.

Maybe I'm just very, very, very slow (which is a distinct possiblitiy :?:), but I have never been able to tell the difference between curveballs, sliders and changeups when watching the game on TV. Frankly, a well thrown knuckleball is probably the only pitch that I could identify on sight.

So help me out here, what am I missing, what do I need to be looking at?

To me, I've always identified a curve ball as a pitch with a 12 - 6 break, or close to it. Meaning, a pitch that starts at its highest point (12 o'clock) and drops straight down (6 o'clock). At least that's how I was taught to throw one all my life. You want to keep your fingers on top of the ball and come over the top of your body with it and force the ball to practically "fall off the table".

I've always had a harder time picking up the sliders and cutters. Both are thrown a lot harder than the curve ball or change up and usually cut or break at the last second. The pitch appears to be a fastball to the batter until it gets to the plate and cuts at the last second. Usually, in a left hander's case, breaking the bat of the right handed hitter because it cuts in on him.

There are a variety of change ups out there and each one looks different when thrown correctly. I think one of the more popular is the circle change though. The pitcher usually has his index finger and a thumb in a circular form around the outside of the ball and uses his outside three fingers to guide the ball. The pitcher's motion should look identical to that of his fastball motion when throwing the change up, but the ball will come out of his hand at least 5-10mph slower because of how it is gripped. A lot of times too the ball will break in the opposite direction of where his cutter or slider would break.

Hope that helps a bit.

Eddo144
05-19-2008, 11:01 AM
To me, I've always identified a curve ball as a pitch with a 12 - 6 break, or close to it. Meaning, a pitch that starts at its highest point (12 o'clock) and drops straight down (6 o'clock). At least that's how I was taught to throw one all my life. You want to keep your fingers on top of the ball and come over the top of your body with it and force the ball to practically "fall off the table".

I've always had a harder time picking up the sliders and cutters. Both are thrown a lot harder than the curve ball or change up and usually cut or break at the last second. The pitch appears to be a fastball to the batter until it gets to the plate and cuts at the last second. Usually, in a left handers case, breaking the bat of the right handed hitter because it cuts in on him.

There are a variety of change ups out there and each one looks different when thrown correctly. I think one of the more popular is the circle change though. The pitcher usually has his index finger and a thumb in a circular form around the outside of the ball and uses his outside three fingers to guide the ball. The pitcher's motion should look identical to that of his fastball motion when throwing the change up, but the ball will come out of his hand at least 5-10mph slower because of how it is gripped. A lot of times too the ball will break in the opposite direction of where his cutter or slider would break.

Hope that helps a bit.
That all seems pretty spot-on.

Fastball - hardest and straightest pitch; the best ones do have movement, however
Curveball - slower than a fastball; breaks downward more than to the side
Slider - similar to a curveball, but with less downward movement and more sideways movement
Cutter - harder than a slider, usually breaks later as well
Changeup - can be straight or have some movement; arm angle and release usually designed to look like a fastball to the hitter, but the way the ball is gripped causes it to move more slowly

Bucky F. Dent
05-19-2008, 11:06 AM
Thanks for all the help. If I am understanding it right:

Fastball - fast and generally straight
Slider - not quite as fast with some movement (to the side)
Curve - even slower, with a more movement (down)
Changeup - slow and generally straight.

So what then is a sinker?

CHIsoxNation
05-19-2008, 11:10 AM
Thanks for all the help. If I am understanding it right:

Fastball - fast and generally straight
Slider - not quite as fast with some movement (to the side)
Curve - even slower, with a more movement (down)
Changeup - slow and generally straight.

So what then is a sinker?

Usually thrown about as hard as a fastball, but instead of breaking to the side like a slider, it breaks down at the last minute. The batter, thinking it's a fastball, usually grounds the ball into the dirt because the ball drops at the last second. It's different than a curve because the curve is usually slower and has a lot more of a break to it.

doublem23
05-19-2008, 11:12 AM
Thanks for all the help. If I am understanding it right:

Fastball - fast and generally straight
Slider - not quite as fast with some movement (to the side)
Curve - even slower, with a more movement (down)
Changeup - slow and generally straight.

So what then is a sinker?

A sinker is a type of fastball, while a slider is a type of breaking ball. I think the two main differences is that the sinker has more downward movement and not much side-to-side, plus a sinker is thrown at the same general speed of a pitcher's fastball.

Wikipedia, per usual, has a pretty good section on baseball pitches:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28baseball%29

delben91
05-19-2008, 11:16 AM
Here's another question.

Those yellow lines on the top of the outfield fences. Does the meaning of the line vary from park to park? Basically, if a ball hits the yellow line, is it a homerun in all parks, or in some parks is it in play making the line more or less meaningless (except maybe providing contrast for the umps to see where the ball hit?)

Paulwny
05-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Here's another question.

Those yellow lines on the top of the outfield fences. Does the meaning of the line vary from park to park? Basically, if a ball hits the yellow line, is it a homerun in all parks, or in some parks is it in play making the line more or less meaningless (except maybe providing contrast for the umps to see where the ball hit?)

Starting this year, all yellow lines are in play.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/ground_rules.jsp

RTI_SoxFan
05-19-2008, 12:35 PM
Why are there 162 games in a season? Such an odd number? I wonder how that number was chosen?

gregoriop
05-19-2008, 12:59 PM
Why are there 162 games in a season? Such an odd number? I wonder how that number was chosen?

I would guess because it divides up evenly. Maybe even that the schedule was balanced whenever they moved up from 154 (I think that's what it was).

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 01:03 PM
Thanks for all the help. If I am understanding it right:

Fastball - fast and generally straight
Slider - not quite as fast with some movement (to the side)
Curve - even slower, with a more movement (down)
Changeup - slow and generally straight.

So what then is a sinker?

It should also be noted that a slider is known for breaking later in the pitch

Curveballs are almost all break, whereas a slider has a late cut to hit, making it more difficult to hit square

sox1970
05-19-2008, 01:22 PM
Why are there 162 games in a season? Such an odd number? I wonder how that number was chosen?

Up until 1960, there were 8 teams in the league. You played the other 7 teams 22 games for 154.

They expanded to ten games in the league in 1961, so they played the nine opponents 18 games for 162.

I'd like them to go back to no divisions and play everyone 12 games. 156 games. (had to throw that in there)

BadBobbyJenks
05-19-2008, 01:25 PM
So what then is a sinker?

If you ever get a chance to see Brandon Webb pitch, you will see a sinker at its finest. Few can throw a power sinker like he does, as you can actually see how far it drops despite how hard he throws it.

ondafarm
05-19-2008, 01:30 PM
Up until 1960, there were 8 teams in the league. You played the other 7 teams 22 games for 154.

They expanded to ten games in the league in 1961, so they played the nine opponents 18 games for 162.

I'd like them to go back to no divisions and play everyone 12 games. 156 games. (had to throw that in there)

I think they want to keep the AL and NL on an equal number of games.

Sockinchisox
05-19-2008, 01:33 PM
Why runners slide into 1st base when not trying to avoid a tag.

BadBobbyJenks
05-19-2008, 01:53 PM
Why runners slide into 1st base when not trying to avoid a tag.

I think Kenny Lofton created some myth that sliding into first gets you in there faster.

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 01:58 PM
Why runners slide into 1st base when not trying to avoid a tag.

Yeah, NEVER understood this at all, never works and if you really break it down and think about it physically, it lessens your speed towards first base.

ondafarm
05-19-2008, 02:13 PM
Why runners slide into 1st base when not trying to avoid a tag.

Apart from avoiding a tag, which does make sense, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Chet Lemon got into the habit of doing this for the White Sox before Lofton was in the league.

manders_01
05-19-2008, 02:17 PM
I don't really know if there is a way to answer this one as understand what constitutes a balk but when actually watching a pitcher, sometimes it's obvious to me when it's called, sometime I think they balked while the ump doesn't call it and sometimes the ump calls it and I didn't see it at all. Do you think there are times when they are looking for it?

mrfourni
05-19-2008, 02:19 PM
Why runners slide into 1st base when not trying to avoid a tag.

Chip Carey once told me you never saw Carl Lewis sliding into the finish line so why would a runner slide into first?

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't really know if there is a way to answer this one as understand what constitutes a balk but when actually watching a pitcher, sometimes it's obvious to me when it's called, sometime I think they balked while the ump doesn't call it and sometimes the ump calls it and I didn't see it at all. Do you think there are times when they are looking for it?

Again wikipedia with the save:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balk

They are very touchy subjects that sometimes different umps have different thoughts on. Buehrle and Danks pick-off moves are very "balky" yet are rarely called. It's very subjective most of the time from the ump when it pertains to pitcher movement.

The most common ones you'll see called are switching from the pitching stance to the windup without properly disengaging the rubber, going from the stretch to the set without making a complete stop or throwing from the rubber to a base without stepping toward the base.

The last being the one I referred to Buehrle and Danks as being very close to breaking every time they pitch.

pierzynski07
05-19-2008, 02:23 PM
I don't really know if there is a way to answer this one as understand what constitutes a balk but when actually watching a pitcher, sometimes it's obvious to me when it's called, sometime I think they balked while the ump doesn't call it and sometimes the ump calls it and I didn't see it at all. Do you think there are times when they are looking for it?
Once someone described to me that the umpries call it when the pitcher does something different from his normal reading/warm up/pitching.

Here's one I've wondered: why is bunting for a base hit late in a no hitter/perfect game considered to be a bad etiquette under baseball's "unwritten rules?"

BadBobbyJenks
05-19-2008, 02:38 PM
Apart from avoiding a tag, which does make sense, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Chet Lemon got into the habit of doing this for the White Sox before Lofton was in the league.

Ah, I was just taking a wild guess as he is one of the first I had seen.

manders_01
05-19-2008, 02:44 PM
Again wikipedia with the save:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balk

They are very touchy subjects that sometimes different umps have different thoughts on. Buehrle and Danks pick-off moves are very "balky" yet are rarely called. It's very subjective most of the time from the ump when it pertains to pitcher movement.

The most common ones you'll see called are switching from the pitching stance to the windup without properly disengaging the rubber, going from the stretch to the set without making a complete stop or throwing from the rubber to a base without stepping toward the base.

The last being the one I referred to Buehrle and Danks as being very close to breaking every time they pitch.

Once someone described to me that the umpries call it when the pitcher does something different from his normal reading/warm up/pitching.

Here's one I've wondered: why is bunting for a base hit late in a no hitter/perfect game considered to be a bad etiquette under baseball's "unwritten rules?"

I wasn't clear - I understand what a balk is and that it's a very subjective call. I just don't understand why it's sometimes called and sometimes not. When I was asking if there are times an ump may be looking for it, I meant like runners on 1st and 3rd, 2 outs, late inning, etc. I'm guessing the answer is no, just when they notice it.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 02:57 PM
Once someone described to me that the umpries call it when the pitcher does something different from his normal reading/warm up/pitching.

Here's one I've wondered: why is bunting for a base hit late in a no hitter/perfect game considered to be a bad etiquette under baseball's "unwritten rules?"

Because it's trying to spoil a pitcher's legitimate achievement with a cheapy.

You can argue all you want that since a bunt hit is a legitimate hit and that it takes skill, and you'd be right, but the consensus among the "unwritten rules" is bunting during a no=hitter is essentially saying "Well, I can't hit you, but I still want to spoil your day."

sox1970
05-19-2008, 03:01 PM
Here's one I've wondered: why is bunting for a base hit late in a no hitter/perfect game considered to be a bad etiquette under baseball's "unwritten rules?"

Depends on the score. If it's a scoreless game, or 1-0 or 2-0, it's ok to bunt. Otherwise, probably not kosher.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 03:03 PM
Depends on the score. If it's a scoreless game, or 1-0 or 2-0, it's ok to bunt. Otherwise, probably not kosher.

It's "ok" to bunt in any situation. That is, it's within the rules. It's probably "more ok" to bunt in a no-hitter that's a close game, but people are still going to be pissed at you, and you're likely to get drilled next time up regardless of the situation.

JohnTucker0814
05-19-2008, 03:04 PM
Because it's trying to spoil a pitcher's legitimate achievement with a cheapy.

You can argue all you want that since a bunt hit is a legitimate hit and that it takes skill, and you'd be right, but the consensus among the "unwritten rules" is bunting during a no=hitter is essentially saying "Well, I can't hit you, but I still want to spoil your day."

I understand what you are saying, but if it's okay to bunt for a hit any other time, there should be no reason why you can't do it during a no-hitter. The only way I could see this would be if Thome were to lay a bunt down the 3rd base line when they have a shift on. That would be class-less. But if a guy like Carlos Gomez that bunts a lot is up and you are not prepared for a bunt... then you don't deserve a no-hitter!

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 03:14 PM
I understand what you are saying, but if it's okay to bunt for a hit any other time, there should be no reason why you can't do it during a no-hitter. The only way I could see this would be if Thome were to lay a bunt down the 3rd base line when they have a shift on. That would be class-less. But if a guy like Carlos Gomez that bunts a lot is up and you are not prepared for a bunt... then you don't deserve a no-hitter!

Like I say, I would tend to agree with you. But I guess what those who think it's bush would say is that bunting for a hit when you're already losing is essentially just saying "I don't care about beating this pitcher straight up, I just want to wreck his achievement."

I don't know about that, but that's the way it seems to go.

asindc
05-19-2008, 03:25 PM
I understand what you are saying, but if it's okay to bunt for a hit any other time, there should be no reason why you can't do it during a no-hitter. The only way I could see this would be if Thome were to lay a bunt down the 3rd base line when they have a shift on. That would be class-less. But if a guy like Carlos Gomez that bunts a lot is up and you are not prepared for a bunt... then you don't deserve a no-hitter!

I agree with this. If Gomez would usually bunt in that situation, I don't see it as bush league. Like you said, if a team is not prepared for it, shame on them.

russ99
05-19-2008, 03:26 PM
Is is just me or were a lot of you taken by surprise by the "out" we got yesterday when the Sox baserunner was hit by the batted ball?

I thought this was a Little League rule, but not on the books in MLB baseball...

Chez
05-19-2008, 03:30 PM
Is is just me or were a lot of you taken by surprise by the "out" we got yesterday when the Sox baserunner was hit by the batted ball?

I thought this was a Little League rule, but not on the books in MLB baseball...

Not only is not an out, but the batter is credited with a hit. I'm waiting for the scenario in a meaningless game at the end of the season when a batter who is vying for the batting average crown hits four routine groundballs and is credited with four base hits because his teammates throw themselves intentionally in front of the balls!

Hokiesox
05-19-2008, 03:36 PM
Balks are pretty much up to the umpire calling it. I think there are 8 different ways to balk and they're VERY much up to the interpretation of the umpire. Ron Luciano once said he had no idea what a balk was, and when he called one, he often looked up at his arms wondering why he was calling one. Most of the time, he said, he put his arms in the air when his partners did, having no idea what the pitcher did. I often times adopt that policy...

I've been to many an umpiring clinic where hours out of a week camp, or a similar time frame, are given to discussing balk/no balk, and rarely do I come away having a better idea. In little league, coaches LOVE to try to call balks on pitchers not coming to a complete stop in the stretch. Nobody ever does, and they don't call it in the major leagues either. I've come to, in practice, completely ignore that rule.

The intent of the balk rule is to try to prevent the pitcher from tricking the runners into making a mistake. So, fakes to first, swinging the foot behind the rubber, not breaking hands after disengaging from the rubber will be called almost every time. The more nuanced calls, like making a complete stop or turning shoulders to check runner at first only fool a first grader. That's probably why the latter types of calls are rarely made.

doublem23
05-19-2008, 03:48 PM
All this balk talk reminds me of this blast from the past (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=785001&postcount=1).

http://static1.videosift.com/thumbs/a/ll/All_In_The_Family_intro.jpg
Those were the daaaaaaaaaaays.

PatK
05-19-2008, 04:19 PM
Why is it considered bad when you are on deck to try to practice your swing and time the pitcher's pitch?

Paulwny
05-19-2008, 04:33 PM
Is is just me or were a lot of you taken by surprise by the "out" we got yesterday when the Sox baserunner was hit by the batted ball?

I thought this was a Little League rule, but not on the books in MLB baseball...


That's the reason why runners at 3rd base go into foul territory when they take a lead off 3rd base.

Paulwny
05-19-2008, 04:40 PM
Not only is not an out, but the batter is credited with a hit. I'm waiting for the scenario in a meaningless game at the end of the season when a batter who is vying for the batting average crown hits four routine groundballs and is credited with four base hits because his teammates throw themselves intentionally in front of the balls!

I don't think you'll ever see that happen.
Also,if there are multiple runners on base and the ump feels that a runner deliberatly interefered with a batted ball he can rule it a double play with both runner and batter out.

Chicken Dinner
05-19-2008, 04:49 PM
That's the reason why runners at 3rd base go into foul territory when they take a lead off 3rd base.


(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;
Rule 7.08(f) Comment: If two runners are touched by the same fair ball, only the first one is out because the ball is instantly dead.

Paulwny
05-19-2008, 04:55 PM
(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;
Rule 7.08(f) Comment: If two runners are touched by the same fair ball, only the first one is out because the ball is instantly dead.


That's why a runner at 3rd is in foul territory when he leaves 3rd base.
Is there something I'm missing here?

Boondock Saint
05-19-2008, 05:17 PM
Why is it considered bad when you are on deck to try to practice your swing and time the pitcher's pitch?

I don't think that it's really "frowned upon", but pitchers certainly don't like it. I remember hearing a story (probably on here) relating to this. Nolan Ryan was throwing his warm-up pitches before the start of a game, and the lead off hitter was standing just outside the batters box, trying to time his pitches. Ryan noticed it, and threw his next warm up pitch right at the guy's head. Ryan then told the guy that the next throw wouldn't miss if he kept timing his swing on him.

FielderJones
05-19-2008, 05:18 PM
I'd like them to go back to no divisions and play everyone 12 games. 156 games. (had to throw that in there)

Never going to happen. In a twelve-team league or fourteen-team league the bottom half will be out of contention before All-Star break. That's a great way to destroy attendance for half your teams. Why would owners agree to anything like this?

doublem23
05-19-2008, 05:19 PM
Never going to happen. In a twelve-team league or fourteen-team league the bottom half will be out of contention before All-Star break. That's a great way to destroy attendance for half your teams. Why would owners agree to anything like this?

We've already argued that point into the ground. The answer is purity of the game. Just because the owners wouldn't agree to something doesn't mean it's not right.

sox1970
05-19-2008, 05:26 PM
Never going to happen. In a twelve-team league or fourteen-team league the bottom half will be out of contention before All-Star break. That's a great way to destroy attendance for half your teams. Why would owners agree to anything like this?

I'd keep the top four teams in the league in the playoffs. This year, there would be 12 teams in the AL very much in contention. But yes, I know it won't happen.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 05:40 PM
I don't think that it's really "frowned upon", but pitchers certainly don't like it. I remember hearing a story (probably on here) relating to this. Nolan Ryan was throwing his warm-up pitches before the start of a game, and the lead off hitter was standing just outside the batters box, trying to time his pitches. Ryan noticed it, and threw his next warm up pitch right at the guy's head. Ryan then told the guy that the next throw wouldn't miss if he kept timing his swing on him.

Didn't some Cubs prospect do that to some guy and **** up his vision for life

Daver
05-19-2008, 05:43 PM
Didn't some Cubs prospect do that to some guy and **** up his vision for life

He did it and then got drafted by the Cubs.

When I caught guys that timed pitches got the first pitch they saw in the earhole.

doublem23
05-19-2008, 06:00 PM
Didn't some Cubs prospect do that to some guy and **** up his vision for life

Ben Christiansen (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_27_223/ai_55198802). But daver's right, he did it in college and still got drafted.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 07:23 PM
He did it and then got drafted by the Cubs.

When I caught guys that timed pitches got the first pitch they saw in the earhole.

Got to throw them off their game one way or another :shrug:

Timing pitches is bush league

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 07:25 PM
Ben Christiansen (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_27_223/ai_55198802). But daver's right, he did it in college and still got drafted.

Wow, that article has a pretty clear POV don't they?

"baseball terrorist"?

It's unbelievably horrible that the kid got hit in the head, but if this was 30 years ago there wouldn't have been a pitcher in baseball (give or take a Sandy Koufax) who wouldn't have buzzed him.

Daver
05-19-2008, 07:27 PM
Wow, that article has a pretty clear POV don't they?

"baseball terrorist"?

It's unbelievably horrible that the kid got hit in the head, but if this was 30 years ago there wouldn't have been a pitcher in baseball (give or take a Sandy Koufax) who wouldn't have buzzed him.

If the guy was in the batters box it's one thing, to throw at a guy that is in the on deck circle is a completely different matter.

Jjav829
05-19-2008, 07:27 PM
If you ever get a chance to see Brandon Webb pitch, you will see a sinker at its finest. Few can throw a power sinker like he does, as you can actually see how far it drops despite how hard he throws it.

Or Fausto Carmona. He probably has the best power sinker in the game.

As for recognizing pitches, it can be hard with some guys. Some pitchers throw two similar pitches where the only where you're going to tell the difference is by velocity or paying real close attention to the break (eg Rich Harden's splitter and change). Other guys throw pitches that don't distinctly look like one pitch or another, like Francisco Rodriguez with his so-called slider that looks like a curve.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 07:31 PM
If the guy was in the batters box it's one thing, to throw at a guy that is in the on deck circle is a completely different matter.

Is that where he was?

It says he was 24 feet away, which is 8 yards. If that was 8 yards to the side of the plate, that seems like it's pretty far.

But if it were 8 yards away at an angle, like behind the catcher or whatever...well he didn't deserve to get hit in the face and blinded, that's for sure...but that would be a different story, I guess

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 07:44 PM
He did it and then got drafted by the Cubs.

When I caught guys that timed pitches got the first pitch they saw in the earhole.

Why? What is so awful about it?

If you trust your stuff it shouldn't matter if the guy can time it.

Madscout
05-19-2008, 07:53 PM
What's the difference between a "two-seamer" and a "sinker"? My understanding is that a two seamer is a pitch that is slower than a four seamer but has more movement. A sinker is a two seamer that drops in the zone? Do they always run in on a same handed batter?

WhiteSoxJunkie
05-19-2008, 07:54 PM
When a batter bunts with two strikes and it goes foul, why is he out?

Daver
05-19-2008, 07:56 PM
Why? What is so awful about it?

If you trust your stuff it shouldn't matter if the guy can time it.

It's an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, and it is a bush league move. I had one guy that couldn't take a hint, he got 13 consecutive HBP's, his team mates told me he was bruised for two weeks from it.

Paulwny
05-19-2008, 08:20 PM
When a batter bunts with two strikes and it goes foul, why is he out?

Because a batter with 2 strikes could continue to bunt foul any pitch that is a strike until he eventually walks.

turners56
05-19-2008, 08:24 PM
What's the difference between a "two-seamer" and a "sinker"? My understanding is that a two seamer is a pitch that is slower than a four seamer but has more movement. A sinker is a two seamer that drops in the zone? Do they always run in on a same handed batter?

A sinker sinks, a two-seamer tends to break the opposite way the pitcher throws it. For example, when a right hander throws a two seam, it tends to break to the left. Sinkers just sink. They have similar finger positioning, but they do different things.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 08:52 PM
A sinker sinks, a two-seamer tends to break the opposite way the pitcher throws it. For example, when a right hander throws a two seam, it tends to break to the left. Sinkers just sink. They have similar finger positioning, but they do different things.

To further elaborate, A two-seamer is thrown with one's fingers on the seams (where the seams are closest together). Thus when it rotates, only two seams go against the air. That causes more movement, and since a ball that isn't going straight takes longer to get there, it's not as fast.

A sinker is held like a two-seamer, only with the ball rotated slightly toward the wrist, so that the fingers are slightly off the seams. It's also, sometimes, thrown with a slight wrist-snap, like a half curveball.

But I think some just throw it like a fastball.

A cutter is held with the fingers together along one seam, thrown like a fastball

WhiteSox5187
05-19-2008, 08:56 PM
It's an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, and it is a bush league move. I had one guy that couldn't take a hint, he got 13 consecutive HBP's, his team mates told me he was bruised for two weeks from it.
But you know what? If I'm a leadoff hitter I want to get on anyway I can. You want to hit me to prove a point? Fine, put me on base. And I'll score because you were more interested in proving a point than in getting me out.

Daver
05-19-2008, 09:03 PM
But you know what? If I'm a leadoff hitter I want to get on anyway I can. You want to hit me to prove a point? Fine, put me on base. And I'll score because you were more interested in proving a point than in getting me out.

Strange how it never worked out to match your scenario.

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 09:03 PM
But you know what? If I'm a leadoff hitter I want to get on anyway I can. You want to hit me to prove a point? Fine, put me on base. And I'll score because you were more interested in proving a point than in getting me out.

Exactly! 13 HBP it seems like he did gain an advantage from you.

I just really don't see how a pitcher would be that pissed about it, it's not an unfair advantage in anyway in my mind, he's getting his timing whatever, if you're nothing but a fastball pitcher I can understand but if you trust your other stuff you don't have to worry about him swinging in the on-deck circle if you're going to break a nasty curve on him.

Daver
05-19-2008, 09:06 PM
Exactly! 13 HBP it seems like he did gain an advantage from you.

He gained three bone bruises, two cracked ribs, and 0 runs scored.

He also gained a newfound respect for pitchers that hit what they throw at, you would think he would have learned after the second cracked batting helmet.

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 09:07 PM
He gained three bone bruises, two cracked ribs, and 0 runs scored.

He also gained a newfound respect for pitchers that hit what they throw at, you would think he would have learned after the second cracked batting helmet.

To really show I was a tough guy I would've ran down his wife and mother in my car.

That'll teach him.

Nothing proves your a good baseball player like bullying unnecessarily.

Daver
05-19-2008, 09:09 PM
To really show I was a tough guy I would've ran down his wife and mother in my car.

That'll teach him.

Nothing proves your a good baseball player like bullying unnecessarily.

HS juniors usually aren't married, but I digress.

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 09:12 PM
HS juniors usually aren't married, but I digress.

Okay then... I assumed this happened at some higher level of baseball. But this brings up another question...

You're telling me you hit a guy that amount of times without anybody raising an eyebrow or you getting suspended?

MarySwiss
05-19-2008, 09:14 PM
I deliberately didn't read through this thread.

What I don't understand about baseball is how the Minnesota Friggin' Twins keep hanging around.

Daver
05-19-2008, 09:15 PM
Okay then... I assumed this happened at some higher level of baseball. But this brings up another question...

You're telling me you hit a guy that amount of times without anybody raising an eyebrow or you getting suspended?

I didn't hit him, the pitchers did, I just told them to either hit him or bean him.

Things were a lot different twenty some years ago.

Daver
05-19-2008, 09:15 PM
I deliberately didn't read through this thread.

What I don't understand about baseball is how the Minnesota Friggin' Twins keep hanging around.

Excellent scouting and player development.

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 09:17 PM
I didn't hit him, the pitchers did, I just told them to either hit him or bean him.

Things were a lot different twenty some years ago.

Somehow I still don't believe that you and your team could hit this guy 13 times without anybody raising some amount of suspicion. I know it was 20 years ago, but 13 times is a bit excessive.

I'm just curious really, not trying to come down on you just find it very hard to believe it was as excessive as you describe.

FedEx227
05-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Excellent scouting and player development.

Exactly. Great scouting to get the right guys, then the fact that they teach guys the same thing from the second they step into Rookie Ball until they get to the majors.

Daver
05-19-2008, 09:32 PM
Somehow I still don't believe that you and your team could hit this guy 13 times without anybody raising some amount of suspicion. I know it was 20 years ago, but 13 times is a bit excessive.

I'm just curious really, not trying to come down on you just find it very hard to believe it was as excessive as you describe.

The opposing coach knew before both games that this kid was gonna get hit if he kept up his crap, no one was hiding a damn thing, and no one is going to complain about something they knew about before hand. The opposing coach thanked us for teaching him a valuable lesson.

turners56
05-19-2008, 09:46 PM
Exactly. Great scouting to get the right cheap journeymen.

Fixed it for ya.

WhiteSox5187
05-19-2008, 09:58 PM
I didn't hit him, the pitchers did, I just told them to either hit him or bean him.

Things were a lot different twenty some years ago.
I didn't play catcher often (I was the second string catcher in high school simply because I could consistently catch the ball), but the only time I'd tell a pitcher to hit a guy was if I thought the batter was showing him up. I only did that once.

I personally don't see what's so "bush" about trying to get a guy's timing down, as that is the point of hitting. When I'm on deck I'm watching the pitcher trying to figure out what he throws, how fast he's throwing, if he's tipping pitches. Isn't that what hitters are supposed to do? Or should we keep our eyes on the ground praying that we'll get a hanger?

If the pitcher wants to send a message to me that's fine (I do tend to crowd the plate) but I'll take getting on base EVERY time thank you. And a bunch of the other hitters on my team would do the same. If that's driving a pitcher nuts, I'd do it to get underneath his skin.

Daver
05-19-2008, 10:07 PM
I didn't play catcher often (I was the second string catcher in high school simply because I could consistently catch the ball), but the only time I'd tell a pitcher to hit a guy was if I thought the batter was showing him up. I only did that once.

I personally don't see what's so "bush" about trying to get a guy's timing down, as that is the point of hitting. When I'm on deck I'm watching the pitcher trying to figure out what he throws, how fast he's throwing, if he's tipping pitches. Isn't that what hitters are supposed to do? Or should we keep our eyes on the ground praying that we'll get a hanger?

If the pitcher wants to send a message to me that's fine (I do tend to crowd the plate) but I'll take getting on base EVERY time thank you. And a bunch of the other hitters on my team would do the same. If that's driving a pitcher nuts, I'd do it to get underneath his skin.

A guy with that attitude got one in the head, he didn't get a second at bat.

I want Mags back
05-19-2008, 10:49 PM
why do outfields have different dimensions. This always seemed silly to me. Every other sport is played on a standard playing area.

Daver
05-19-2008, 10:55 PM
why do outfields have different dimensions. This always seemed silly to me. Every other sport is played on a standard playing area.

Just about every other sport has a clock too, it doesn't make them better.

I want Mags back
05-19-2008, 11:03 PM
Just about every other sport has a clock too, it doesn't make them better.

I never said sports with a clock are better:?:

LongLiveFisk
05-19-2008, 11:06 PM
I never understood why the batter doesn't get credit for an RBI when he hits into a DP. Yes, he did make two outs with one swing of the bat, which is not a good thing, but he DID technically bat the runner in.

Yet if a guy walks with the bases loaded he is given credit for a run batted in when technically he DID NOT bat the runner in. (I get it; he did a good thing by walking, but you know what I mean. :wink:)

And am I remembering this correctly, if a guy strikes out (making the 3rd out in an inning) and the ball gets away from the catcher he can still make 1st on a passed ball? (You would think 3 outs is 3 outs but I guess not). And isn't this what AJ did in that series against the Angels in '05? :D:

Corlose 15
05-19-2008, 11:09 PM
I didn't have the patience to sift through this thread so hopefully this hasn't been brought up before.

My question is about strategy. I've often heard people say that you don't want somebody to steal a base ahead of a power hitter because that leaves first base open for them to just walk the hitter. It seems to me however, that the end result is the same if you walk the hitter, runners on 1st and 2nd. If that is your strategy as a defense why does it matter what base the original runner is on? The end up in the same situation if the runner is on 1st or 2nd.

Daver
05-19-2008, 11:12 PM
I never said sports with a clock are better:?:

I'm pointing out that difference can be a good thing.

ondafarm
05-19-2008, 11:20 PM
(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;
Rule 7.08(f) Comment: If two runners are touched by the same fair ball, only the first one is out because the ball is instantly dead.

Man, I'd give my right arm to see 7.08(f) be called into play.

I want Mags back
05-19-2008, 11:22 PM
I'm pointing out that difference can be a good thing.
i never said it was bad, I like i. It makes parks unique. I just dont really understand it, this thread is "Things you Don't Understand about baseball"

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 11:27 PM
To really show I was a tough guy I would've ran down his wife and mother in my car.

That'll teach him.

Nothing proves your a good baseball player like bullying unnecessarily.

Grow up. This isn't the after-school hug committee. It's sports. :rolleyes:

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 11:28 PM
Somehow I still don't believe that you and your team could hit this guy 13 times without anybody raising some amount of suspicion. I know it was 20 years ago, but 13 times is a bit excessive.

I'm just curious really, not trying to come down on you just find it very hard to believe it was as excessive as you describe.

Do you have any concept of how baseball was before the touchy feely 90's?

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 11:31 PM
I didn't play catcher often (I was the second string catcher in high school simply because I could consistently catch the ball), but the only time I'd tell a pitcher to hit a guy was if I thought the batter was showing him up. I only did that once.

I personally don't see what's so "bush" about trying to get a guy's timing down, as that is the point of hitting. When I'm on deck I'm watching the pitcher trying to figure out what he throws, how fast he's throwing, if he's tipping pitches. Isn't that what hitters are supposed to do? Or should we keep our eyes on the ground praying that we'll get a hanger?

If the pitcher wants to send a message to me that's fine (I do tend to crowd the plate) but I'll take getting on base EVERY time thank you. And a bunch of the other hitters on my team would do the same. If that's driving a pitcher nuts, I'd do it to get underneath his skin.

What's bush about it? Bush is trying to get an advantage by being a douchebag. The whole idea behind bush is that there are certain things within the rules of the game that you still don't do if you don't want to look at a douchebag.

Here are some of them

1.) Don't jump back and forth on the basepaths to try to distract the pitcher, especially on third base
2.) On a 3-0 count don't square around like your'e going to bunt, then wave the bat around, then pull back, to try to make the pitcher throw a ball
3.) Don't shout "BOO!" as you pass a SS trying to catch a pop up.

Sure all those things give you an advantage and there's no rule against, them, but have some ****ing respect for the game for Christ's sake

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 11:35 PM
I never understood why the batter doesn't get credit for an RBI when he hits into a DP. Yes, he did make two outs with one swing of the bat, which is not a good thing, but he DID technically bat the runner in.

It's the same reason you don't get an RBI for an error you hit into, even if there's a runner on third and less than 2 outs (unless it's obvious the runner is going to score). You can't get credit for a run that you lucked into.


Yet if a guy walks with the bases loaded he is given credit for a run batted in when technically he DID NOT bat the runner in. (I get it; he did a good thing by walking, but you know what I mean. :wink:)

You don't luck into a walk. You have actually accomplished something rather than relying on bad fielding or the fact that the bases are loaded.


And am I remembering this correctly, if a guy strikes out (making the 3rd out in an inning) and the ball gets away from the catcher he can still make 1st on a passed ball? (You would think 3 outs is 3 outs but I guess not). And isn't this what AJ did in that series against the Angels in '05? :D:

Yes. As long as there is not a runner on first with less than 2 outs. If there's a dropped third strike, it's not an out until the batter is tagged or forced out at first--therefore when there are 2 outs and there's a dropped third strike, that's not the third out yet.

fquaye149
05-19-2008, 11:38 PM
I didn't have the patience to sift through this thread so hopefully this hasn't been brought up before.

My question is about strategy. I've often heard people say that you don't want somebody to steal a base ahead of a power hitter because that leaves first base open for them to just walk the hitter. It seems to me however, that the end result is the same if you walk the hitter, runners on 1st and 2nd. If that is your strategy as a defense why does it matter what base the original runner is on? The end up in the same situation if the runner is on 1st or 2nd.


Power hitters are often slow, making the double play a possibility.

The reason 1st base being open allows a pitcher to walk is it betters the situation. You go from a runner on 2nd and no force to runners at 1st and 2nd with a force at all base. You still only have one runner in scoring position and a force at all bases instead of at none. Therefore with a runner on second, walking the batter is often an advantage, especially if the batter can hit.

However, with a runner on first, you have no runners in scoring position and a force at 2nd. Walking the hitter will put the runner in scoring position and only give you one more force. A disadvantage.

Obviously that strategy differs based on situation, and some hitters are so good you don't pitch to them with runners on (like Bonds, when he was cheating). But that's the general idea of what you're asking, I think.

I want Mags back
05-19-2008, 11:46 PM
I umped a game Sunday and one of the coaches didnt particularly know the Dropped 3rd rule. He thought that if he caught it cleaning on a bounce it was considered a catch. He said "He didnt drop it" I responded "it dropped on the ground."

doublem23
05-20-2008, 12:35 AM
If the pitcher wants to send a message to me that's fine (I do tend to crowd the plate) but I'll take getting on base EVERY time thank you. And a bunch of the other hitters on my team would do the same. If that's driving a pitcher nuts, I'd do it to get underneath his skin.

If it doesn't bother you, more power to you, but I would get beaned often when I played and it was never a pleasant experience. Luckily I never had a sadistic catcher like Daver calling the shots, but I did get some sweet chin music twice in one game... I couldn't take it, especially since I thought the second one broke my hand.

FedEx227
05-20-2008, 02:36 AM
Do you have any concept of how baseball was before the touchy feely 90's?

There's a big difference between rough baseball and a guy getting hit by pitch 13 times... that's a ****ing assault. I have nothing against rough baseball at all... but what Daver claims happened is on a completely new level. Especially for something that I would consider less bush league then the other things you mentioned. Practicing timing? Really?! You would get that fired up over that.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:45 AM
There's a big difference between rough baseball and a guy getting hit by pitch 13 times... that's a ****ing assault. Especially for something that I would consider less bush league then the other things you mentioned. Practicing timing? Really?! You would get that fired up over that.

:rolleyes: You clearly haven't a clue about this. "That's assault!!!!" "What's wrong with trying to time your pitches off warmups???"Lol. Ridiculous.

:rolleyes:


Let's say you do a touchdown dance in a high school football game and on your next possession the linebacker blindsides you and cleans your clock.

"That's assault!!!!!"

"What's wrong with doing a touchdown dance????"

I'm not one of those people bemoaning how wussy everyone is these days, really I'm not...but jebus. Man up.

FedEx227
05-20-2008, 02:47 AM
:rolleyes: You clearly haven't a clue about this. "That's assault!!!!" "What's wrong with trying to time your pitches off warmups???"Lol. Ridiculous.

:rolleyes:


Let's say you do a touchdown dance in a high school football game and on your next possession the linebacker blindsides you and cleans your clock.

"That's assault!!!!!"

"What's wrong with doing a touchdown dance????"

I'm not one of those people bemoaning how wussy everyone is these days, really I'm not...but jebus. Man up.

Are you seriously kidding me? Those are two completely different things.

One hard tackle =/= getting beaned 13 times.

I really hope, for your own sake, you are joking if you honestly think those are similar things.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:49 AM
Are you kidding? Those are two completely different things.

One hard tackle =/= getting beaned 13 times.

I really hope, for your own sake, you are joking if you honestly think those are similar things.

Getting beaned 13 whole times. Whoopdee****ing do.

If I was the one getting beaned 13 whole times (:rolleyes:) I think I might stop doing the douchebag thing that was so obnoxious that even my coach didn't have my back.

Where the hell did you play high school ball growing up? California? Or have things changed in the midwest between when I played ball in 2002 and whatever year it is now that people think it's ok to be a bush league piece of **** on the baseball field and dat getting beaned thiwteen whole times is so bad that mommy's pow widdle baby must have been assaulted by the mean ol' catcher

rdwj
05-20-2008, 07:50 AM
My question is about foul tips with less than two strikes. When does a tip become a foul ball where catching it is recorded as an out? Does the catcher have to move a certain amount, does it have to be a certain angle or is it up to the umpire to determine?

I don't think I've ever seen one that was questionable, but I'm curious.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 08:57 AM
My question is about foul tips with less than two strikes. When does a tip become a foul ball where catching it is recorded as an out? Does the catcher have to move a certain amount, does it have to be a certain angle or is it up to the umpire to determine?

I don't think I've ever seen one that was questionable, but I'm curious.

I believe if a foul "tip" goes higher than the batter's head then it is a foul ball rather than a foul tip. Clearly if it's fouled straight back, just barely higher than the batter's head, a catcher's not going to get his paws on it, so I don't think this comes into play very often

Huisj
05-20-2008, 10:25 AM
Here's a new topic. This came up in a discussion in my office last week for some reason.

What is the origin of the rule that says a starting pitcher has to go 5 innings to qualify for the win? Why 5 innings (as opposed to say, 4 or 6)? Is it just because a game isn't official until it's through the 5th inning? If so, why can a reliever get a win for getting just one out.

It's always a rule I'd taken for granted as being completely logical, but when a guy I work with started asking me a bunch of questions about why it's there, I didn't really have good answers that satisfied him.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 10:59 AM
Here's a new topic. This came up in a discussion in my office last week for some reason.

What is the origin of the rule that says a starting pitcher has to go 5 innings to qualify for the win? Why 5 innings (as opposed to say, 4 or 6)? Is it just because a game isn't official until it's through the 5th inning? If so, why can a reliever get a win for getting just one out.

It's always a rule I'd taken for granted as being completely logical, but when a guy I work with started asking me a bunch of questions about why it's there, I didn't really have good answers that satisfied him.

My guess is:

1.) 5 innings= more than half the game, round number (rather than 4 2/3 innings, which would technically be the fewest outs you could record to have pitched more than half the game)

2.) Reliever? I'm not sure, but I guess I'd say it's because someone's got to get the win :shrug:

ondafarm
05-20-2008, 12:11 PM
If it doesn't bother you, more power to you, but I would get beaned often when I played and it was never a pleasant experience. Luckily I never had a sadistic catcher like Daver calling the shots, but I did get some sweet chin music twice in one game... I couldn't take it, especially since I thought the second one broke my hand.

I may be struck down for this . . .

Daver's approach is absolutely right. That inside six inches belongs to my pitcher, not you. I'd knock guys down twice in a row if they got up and dug in again.

SoxyStu
05-20-2008, 12:17 PM
You don't luck into a walk.

Not entirely true - did you see Dotel's last outing? :redneck

asindc
05-20-2008, 12:26 PM
I don't think that it's really "frowned upon", but pitchers certainly don't like it. I remember hearing a story (probably on here) relating to this. Nolan Ryan was throwing his warm-up pitches before the start of a game, and the lead off hitter was standing just outside the batters box, trying to time his pitches. Ryan noticed it, and threw his next warm up pitch right at the guy's head. Ryan then told the guy that the next throw wouldn't miss if he kept timing his swing on him.

And thus another example of one of the stupidest and most dangerous "unwritten rules" in baseball. If Ryan had pulled that crap with me, I would have thrown the bat his way on my next swing. Ask Rico Petricelli (sp?) what damage can be done with a baseball to the head.

asindc
05-20-2008, 12:29 PM
Got to throw them off their game one way or another :shrug:

Timing pitches is bush league

Bull****. Petty dangerous bull**** (like hitting a guy after he hits a HR off you) just because you can't get him out is stupid.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 12:32 PM
Bull****. Petty dangerous bull**** (like hitting a guy after he hits a HR off you) just because you can't get him out is stupid.

Then I guess this game is founded on bull****. And has nothing but bull**** running through its history and tradition. The pitchers who wouldn't throw at a guy have long been the exception in baseball.

asindc
05-20-2008, 12:32 PM
But you know what? If I'm a leadoff hitter I want to get on anyway I can. You want to hit me to prove a point? Fine, put me on base. And I'll score because you were more interested in proving a point than in getting me out.

Thanks for the voice of reason. If a pitcher wants the guy to stop doing it, get him out, period.

asindc
05-20-2008, 12:45 PM
Then I guess this game is founded on bull****. And has nothing but bull**** running through its history and tradition. The pitchers who wouldn't throw at a guy have long been the exception in baseball.

You mentioned Koufax didn't hit guys for petty reasons. How did that hamper is career?

Look, I see pitchers hitting batters for reasons like trying to time his pitches or for hitting HRs off him as the equivalent of Bruce Bowen elbowing and/or tripping his opponent because he keeps scoring off him, or defenses late-hitting Walter Payton because he keeps running rough-shod over them. It is the pitcher being bush league in these instances, IMO. All because the batter is either trying to legitimately gain an advantage or is simply better than the pitcher that day. Again, if Ryan pulls that crap on me, a bat is buzzing past his shoulder the next time I swing the bat in his direction.

On a lighter note: My 500th post!!

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 12:48 PM
You mentioned Koufax didn't hit guys for petty reasons. How did that hamper is career?

Look, I see pitchers hitting batters for reasons like trying to time his pitches or for hitting HRs off him as the equivalent of Bruce Bowen elbowing and/or tripping his opponent because he keeps scoring off him, or defenses late-hitting Walter Payton because he keeps running rough-shod over them. It is the pitcher being bush league in these instances, IMO. All because the batter is either trying to legitimately gain an advantage or is simply better than the pitcher that day. Again, if Ryan pulls that crap on me, a bat is buzzing past his shoulder the next time I swing the bat in his direction.

On a lighter note: My 500th post!!

Well, if you were speaking objectively you might say the pitcher is being bush league. But that's not the way the game works. The unwritten rules of baseball say that you do this and you don't do this.

One of the things you do do is plunk someone if they show you up. One thing you don't do is show up a pitcher.

I can understand why some might not like it, but you can't use what you consider to be logic to explain why the tradition of the game should completely change its priorities. It just won't happen.

And for the record, another one of the unwritten rules of baseball is: you never use your bat as a weapon.

asindc
05-20-2008, 12:53 PM
Well, if you were speaking objectively you might say the pitcher is being bush league. But that's not the way the game works. The unwritten rules of baseball say that you do this and you don't do this.

One of the things you do do is plunk someone if they show you up. One thing you don't do is show up a pitcher.

I can understand why some might not like it, but you can't use what you consider to be logic to explain why the tradition of the game should completely change its priorities. It just won't happen.

And for the record, another one of the unwritten rules of baseball is: you never use your bat as a weapon.

Fair enough. But haven't enough players been critically injured or even killed with a baseball thrown to the head for that stupid unwritten rule to be abolished? I would argue that the baseball is more of a weapon being thrown 90 mph than a bat being thrown. You are right, though: Logic does not dictate why it continues. And for the record, if a batter shows up a pitcher, all bets are off as far as I'm concerned. Just don't throw at a guy just because you are not good enough to get him out.

Look at that: I'm a Personality now!

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 12:57 PM
Fair enough. But haven't enough players been critically injured or even killed with a baseball thrown to the head for that stupid unwritten rule to be abolished? I would argue that the baseball is more of a weapon being thrown 90 mph than a bat being thrown. You are right, though: Logic does not dictate why it continues. And for the record, if a batter shows up a pitcher, all bets are off as far as I'm concerned. Just don't throw at a guy just because you are not good enough to get him out.

Look at that: I'm a Personality now!

I would suspect that most people who have been seriously injured by a pitch were injured on a pitch that got away from the pitcher rather than a knockdown pitch or a plunker

The reason behind this?

1.) When pitchers are trying to hit a batter, they often aim for arms, legs, or ass to send a message without inflicting serious harm

2.) Most of the time when they aim high, their intentions are to knock the guy down, not hit him.

3.) Most of the time when a pitcher's trying to plunk a batter, the batter isn't clueless--he knows it's coming (and probably that he has it coming).

spiffie
05-20-2008, 01:01 PM
Well, if you were speaking objectively you might say the pitcher is being bush league. But that's not the way the game works. The unwritten rules of baseball say that you do this and you don't do this.

One of the things you do do is plunk someone if they show you up. One thing you don't do is show up a pitcher.

I can understand why some might not like it, but you can't use what you consider to be logic to explain why the tradition of the game should completely change its priorities. It just won't happen.

And for the record, another one of the unwritten rules of baseball is: you never use your bat as a weapon.
Juan Marichal totally disagrees with that last one.

And if batters really wanted to change that unwritten rule, all it would take is a couple bats getting broken across a few catcher's helmets at high speed. But I suspect most batters understand that the rules are there for both sides, and that the game gets along fine with them in place.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 01:05 PM
Juan Marichal totally disagrees with that last one.

And if batters really wanted to change that unwritten rule, all it would take is a couple bats getting broken across a few catcher's helmets at high speed. But I suspect most batters understand that the rules are there for both sides, and that the game gets along fine with them in place.

Juan Marichal is pretty much understood to be a ******** for doing that. And people think of it as one of the most despicable acts in sports history.

Same thing with the backlash after Frank Thomas (the old Frank Thomas) hit Dick Allen with a bat in a pregame fight.

doublem23
05-20-2008, 01:16 PM
I may be struck down for this . . .

Daver's approach is absolutely right. That inside six inches belongs to my pitcher, not you. I'd knock guys down twice in a row if they got up and dug in again.

I agree. As a hitter, I would crowd the plate occasionally to try and **** with a pitcher, but I did it at my own peril. I knew one of those pitches was probably coming my way.

If you're man enough to take HBP after HBP, then go ahead and crowd the plate and take the free base that they're willing to offer you, but I don't know many guys who can repeatedly get beaned without thinking twice. Like I said, I only got hit multiple times in a game once, but I will tell you the next time I came up, I was a) well off the plate and b) jittery in the box, since I wasn't exactly thrilled with the notion of taking another one for the team.

IIRC I struck out that at bat because the pitcher had gotten in my head. If you're not pitching inside, you're not going to pitch effectively. The trade-off of hitting someone every now and then is well worth claiming your real estate on the inside part of the plate.

WhiteSox5187
05-20-2008, 01:21 PM
What's bush about it? Bush is trying to get an advantage by being a douchebag. The whole idea behind bush is that there are certain things within the rules of the game that you still don't do if you don't want to look at a douchebag.

Here are some of them

1.) Don't jump back and forth on the basepaths to try to distract the pitcher, especially on third base
2.) On a 3-0 count don't square around like your'e going to bunt, then wave the bat around, then pull back, to try to make the pitcher throw a ball
3.) Don't shout "BOO!" as you pass a SS trying to catch a pop up.

Sure all those things give you an advantage and there's no rule against, them, but have some ****ing respect for the game for Christ's sake
All good baserunners do that. Jackie Robinson and Lou Brock were pros at it. I agree with the latter two, but if the pitcher is that distracted, too ****ing bad for him. I show plenty of respect for the game, when I hit a little ground ball I run hard even though I'll be out by plenty, when you hit a homerun you're not supposed to look at it as though it were a work of art, after a strikeout you shouldn't dance like crazy. THAT is showing respect to the game. Dancing off the base is part of the game. The pitcher should be more worried about the guy with the stick anyways.

As for digging in, I crowd the plate a bit and I expect to get hit for it from time to time, and yes, it hurts (I won't let the pitcher know that though!), but I'll take getting on base to striking out because I can't reach the outside corner every day thank you very much...finally for proving a point, the few times I told the catcher to hit a guy I told him to put in his back. Aiming at a guy's head is wrong. "Ha! I killed the son of a bitch! NOW he won't crowd the plate!" Also if a guy is getting hit thirteen times, good for him but his pitchers better be hitting someone else thirteen times. Also if there was a play at hte plate and I'm the runner, I sure as hell wouldn't be sliding.

But in the games that I played it was NEVER this intense. Most of hte pitchers couldn't throw a strike much less intentionally hit a guy. The umps in today's game also have way too much control. I once got hit by a pitch twice in a game and I was talking to the first baseman who said "Just so you know, he doesn't know where the ball is going...I just wanted to let you know that so you don't hit ME!"

EndemicSox
05-20-2008, 01:52 PM
Then I guess this game is founded on bull****. And has nothing but bull**** running through its history and tradition. The pitchers who wouldn't throw at a guy have long been the exception in baseball.

When emotions come in to play, bull**** happens...

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:00 PM
All good baserunners do that. Jackie Robinson and Lou Brock were pros at it. I agree with the latter two, but if the pitcher is that distracted, too ****ing bad for him. I show plenty of respect for the game, when I hit a little ground ball I run hard even though I'll be out by plenty, when you hit a homerun you're not supposed to look at it as though it were a work of art, after a strikeout you shouldn't dance like crazy. THAT is showing respect to the game. Dancing off the base is part of the game. The pitcher should be more worried about the guy with the stick anyways.

I agree that a lot of people did it. Few do it anymore. It should be noted that Robinson and Brock were the targets of quite a few pitches (although Robinson was the victim of douchebag racists as well in the batter's box).


As for digging in, I crowd the plate a bit and I expect to get hit for it from time to time, and yes, it hurts (I won't let the pitcher know that though!), but I'll take getting on base to striking out because I can't reach the outside corner every day thank you very much...finally for proving a point, the few times I told the catcher to hit a guy I told him to put in his back. Aiming at a guy's head is wrong. "Ha! I killed the son of a bitch! NOW he won't crowd the plate!" Also if a guy is getting hit thirteen times, good for him but his pitchers better be hitting someone else thirteen times. Also if there was a play at hte plate and I'm the runner, I sure as hell wouldn't be sliding.That's the whole point. You dig in knowing that a pitcher might throw at you. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I'm not trying to say digging in or dancing on the basepaths is necessarily bush league (though dancing on the basepaths and yelling during pop flies is toeing the line pretty close). I'm saying it's the kind of thing that's going to get you plunked or smacked by a pickoff tag.

PennStater98r
05-20-2008, 02:16 PM
A guy with that attitude got one in the head, he didn't get a second at bat.

I guess the batter had better be unfamiliar with the Marichal/Roseboro brawl - because I could see a hot head using that bat as a club sooner or later if he were beamed that many times and then took one off the helmet (btw - I do know that Marichal clubbed Roseboro b/c Roseboro threw the ball right past his nose when throwing back to Koufax, but I was getting at a batter getting pissed and using the bat moreso).

I am not saying crowding the plate is a right - but throwing at someone's head is just bushleague - about as bush as anything else that's been claimed to be bush on this thread (maybe not Marichal tactics) ;)

WhiteSox5187
05-20-2008, 02:24 PM
I agree that a lot of people did it. Few do it anymore. It should be noted that Robinson and Brock were the targets of quite a few pitches (although Robinson was the victim of douchebag racists as well in the batter's box).

That's the whole point. You dig in knowing that a pitcher might throw at you. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I'm not trying to say digging in or dancing on the basepaths is necessarily bush league (though dancing on the basepaths and yelling during pop flies is toeing the line pretty close). I'm saying it's the kind of thing that's going to get you plunked or smacked by a pickoff tag.
There are no two ways about it, yelling "I got it!" on the basepaths when a guy is going after a pop-up is bush league. And I think if a guy like Konerko is "dancing" off the basepaths I'd say that isn't necessarily bush, but it sure as hell is stupid. But if Pods was dancing off the base like "Will I go? Will I stay?" I think that's fair. That's the element that speed brings to the table. Some guys get bothered by that, other guys - like Maddux and other hall of famers - don't really let it bother them.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:25 PM
I guess the batter had better be unfamiliar with the Marichal/Roseboro brawl - because I could see a hot head using that bat as a club sooner or later if he were beamed that many times and then took one off the helmet.

I am not saying crowding the plate is a right - but throwing at someone's head is just bushleague - about as bush as anything else that's been claimed to be bush on this thread (maybe not Marichal tactics) ;)

Marichal was a pitcher at bat. Roseboro was a catcher. The reason why the whole incident happened in the first place was because the pitcher (Koufax) refused to throw at Marichal, and Roseboro had to take matters into his own hands.

That said, there's a huge ****ing difference between hitting someone with a bat and hitting someone with a ball. Notice how every time someone has hit someone with a bat it has been a huge deal.

PennStater98r
05-20-2008, 02:25 PM
3.) Don't shout "BOO!" as you pass a SS trying to catch a pop up.


Would "I got it!" be acceptable?

:cool:

PennStater98r
05-20-2008, 02:29 PM
Marichal was a pitcher at bat. Roseboro was a catcher. The reason why the whole incident happened in the first place was because the pitcher (Koufax) refused to throw at Marichal, and Roseboro had to take matters into his own hands.

That said, there's a huge ****ing difference between hitting someone with a bat and hitting someone with a ball. Notice how every time someone has hit someone with a bat it has been a huge deal.

Please see my edit - I knew it would be an issue using that as an example.

I agree - hitting someone with a pitch is fine - I even would do it if the batter's crowding the plate.

However, throwing a fastball at someone's head is bush, bogus and as bad as clubbing one with a bat. I made the comment because I feel that both things are equally bad. The head is off limits imo - and if you're a pitcher or catcher that thinks differently - you don't have a right to play the game - you're not responsible enough.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:35 PM
Please see my edit - I knew it would be an issue using that as an example.

I agree - hitting someone with a pitch is fine - I even would do it if the batter's crowding the plate.

However, throwing a fastball at someone's head is bush, bogus and as bad as clubbing one with a bat. I made the comment because I feel that both things are equally bad. The head is off limits imo - and if you're a pitcher or catcher that thinks differently - you don't have a right to play the game - you're not responsible enough.

The whole point is that baseball players know what they're getting into. That kind of understood retribution makes things relatively safe.

In hockey, if you take a cheap shot at the team's star player, you know you'll be getting a cheap shot from their goon.

In basketball, if you show up the other team with a dunk when the game's out of hand, you know you're going to be getting fouled hard next time you go up.

In football, if a defensive lineman takes a cheap shot or shows someone up, he'll be getting cut block next time through the trenches.

People understand the consequences of their actions. That's why I think the Marichal example is a perfect example. Marichal knew that if he threw at Dodgers, he was setting himself up to get drilled. The fact that Koufax wouldn't do it, meant that Roseboro had to take matters into his own hands, which led to a sort of anarchy. If Koufax had just plunked Marichal, everything would have probably been just fine.

Throwing at a head being garbage? I'd tend to agree. But then again, I never was a pitcher (or a hitter) at the big league level, so I wouldn't know much about how dangerous it really is. There was a player for the Red Sox who got hit in the face and lost his vision for most of the season in the 50's? I think? 60's? I dunno. Hawk probably would. At any rate, he said he wouldn't have gotten hit except the ball tailed into him.

I really don't know. I wouldn't suspect most of the hitters who get hit in the head by a pitched ball got hit because the pitcher meant for them to

PennStater98r
05-20-2008, 02:46 PM
I really don't know. I wouldn't suspect most of the hitters who get hit in the head by a pitched ball got hit because the pitcher meant for them to

You're right fquaye - it's one thing to accidentally hit someone with a pitch in the head - it's another to say that you're a catcher that called for a pitch to be thrown at someone's head.

I do know that if you're going to crowd the plate - you should expect to live in the danger zone. And when you're up to bat - a lot of times you're going to know whether a pitch is coming into your ribs. That said, if you knew one was going to be coming into your ribs or brushing you back - and it's going into your helmet and you knew that it was called for to go into your helmet - Juan Marichal impressions are going to go down. The reason that Marichal clubbed Roseboro imo is not because Roseboro took matters into his own hands - it's because he threw the ball head-high and an inch or two from his face. That's why Marichal reacted the way he did - he didn't want a ball in his face - TWICE.

Koufax didn't hit him because he didn't want to put a runner on base - especially the pitcher!

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 02:48 PM
You're right fquaye - it's one thing to accidentally hit someone with a pitch in the head - it's another to say that you're a catcher that called for a pitch to be thrown at someone's head.

I do know that if you're going to crowd the plate - you should expect to live in the danger zone. And when you're up to bat - a lot of times you're going to know whether a pitch is coming into your ribs. That said, if you knew one was going to be coming into your ribs or brushing you back - and it's going into your helmet and you knew that it was called for to go into your helmet - Juan Marichal impressions are going to go down. The reason that Marichal clubbed Roseboro imo is not because Roseboro took matters into his own hands - it's because he threw the ball head-high and an inch or two from his face. That's why Marichal reacted the way he did - he didn't want a ball in his face - TWICE.

Koufax didn't hit him because he didn't want to put a runner on base - especially the pitcher!

Well, when the catcher calls for a pitch in the hitter's earhole, he's usually saying "knock him down". I don't know if that's what Daver was doing...but :shrug:

asindc
05-20-2008, 02:52 PM
You're right fquaye - it's one thing to accidentally hit someone with a pitch in the head - it's another to say that you're a catcher that called for a pitch to be thrown at someone's head.

I do know that if you're going to crowd the plate - you should expect to live in the danger zone. And when you're up to bat - a lot of times you're going to know whether a pitch is coming into your ribs. That said, if you knew one was going to be coming into your ribs or brushing you back - and it's going into your helmet and you knew that it was called for to go into your helmet - Juan Marichal impressions are going to go down. The reason that Marichal clubbed Roseboro imo is not because Roseboro took matters into his own hands - it's because he threw the ball head-high and an inch or two from his face. That's why Marichal reacted the way he did - he didn't want a ball in his face - TWICE.

Koufax didn't hit him because he didn't want to put a runner on base - especially the pitcher!

I don't think it's a coincidence that Koufax was considered one of the smartest players ever.

PennStater98r
05-20-2008, 02:53 PM
Well, when the catcher calls for a pitch in the hitter's earhole, he's usually saying "knock him down". I don't know if that's what Daver was doing...but :shrug:

Yeah - I thought about that - and I wouldn't have posted the "bat=club" thing if Daver hadn't said, "he didn't get a second at bat," implying that it was a call to hit him and take him out of the game. Oh well... we've beat this topic like a dead horse - with a baseball bat even.

voodoochile
05-20-2008, 03:18 PM
Okay, one that bothers me...

When a pitcher commits the error that allows 6 unearned runs to score, why aren't the runs earned?

sox1970
05-20-2008, 03:31 PM
Okay, one that bothers me...

When a pitcher commits the error that allows 6 unearned runs to score, why aren't the runs earned?

I agree on that one. He's the one that ****ed up. They should be earned.

daveeym
05-20-2008, 03:33 PM
What's bush about it? Bush is trying to get an advantage by being a douchebag. The whole idea behind bush is that there are certain things within the rules of the game that you still don't do if you don't want to look at a douchebag.

Here are some of them

1.) Don't jump back and forth on the basepaths to try to distract the pitcher, especially on third base
2.) On a 3-0 count don't square around like your'e going to bunt, then wave the bat around, then pull back, to try to make the pitcher throw a ball
3.) Don't shout "BOO!" as you pass a SS trying to catch a pop up.

Sure all those things give you an advantage and there's no rule against, them, but have some ****ing respect for the game for Christ's sake Bush is beaning people for "timing" pitches, with an exception. If you're in the on deck circle, over by the dugout you're fine. Bush was when they were intentionally closer to the plate and timing warmups, then that would earn you one in your ear. Bush was the ******* standing in the dirt around the plate trying to time pitches or just off the dirt on the grass. It pretty much only applied to the lead off hitter for that inning.

ondafarm
05-20-2008, 03:59 PM
Okay, one that bothers me...

When a pitcher commits the error that allows 6 unearned runs to score, why aren't the runs earned?

So if the third baseman commits an error that allows three unearned runs to score, and loses the game, then the third baseman should be charged with the runs and the loss?

Daver
05-20-2008, 04:04 PM
If it doesn't bother you, more power to you, but I would get beaned often when I played and it was never a pleasant experience. Luckily I never had a sadistic catcher like Daver calling the shots, but I did get some sweet chin music twice in one game... I couldn't take it, especially since I thought the second one broke my hand.

Sadistic?

Come on Doub.

FedEx227
05-20-2008, 04:44 PM
Sadistic?

Come on Doub.

Cracking helmets and telling pitchers to intentionally throw at a guys head is pretty ****ed up.

A purpose pitch is a purpose pitch, that's understandable I see where you're coming from with that, but throwing at a guys head. There's no place for that in any sport in any time.

asindc
05-20-2008, 04:45 PM
Cracking helmets and telling pitchers to intentionally throw at a guys head is pretty ****ed up.

I agree.

Daver
05-20-2008, 05:05 PM
Cracking helmets and telling pitchers to intentionally throw at a guys head is pretty ****ed up.

A purpose pitch is a purpose pitch, that's understandable I see where you're coming from with that, but throwing at a guys head. There's no place for that in any sport in any time.

Duck faster.

asindc
05-20-2008, 05:23 PM
Duck faster.

I might say the same if I threw a bat in the pitcher's direction.

downstairs
05-20-2008, 05:25 PM
Okay, one that bothers me...

When a pitcher commits the error that allows 6 unearned runs to score, why aren't the runs earned?

Think of it this way... the ignoring of runs scored on an error are to attempt to better have the ERA numbers reflect the pitchers pitching ability. If his defense caused the run, then why muck up his ERA (which measures pitching).

As a fan (or whoever), you want stats like these to be as relevant as possible, so we can compare other pitchers.

I understand the attitude of your idea (you fouled it up, you get the bad marks!)... but its not logical IMHO.

FedEx227
05-20-2008, 05:27 PM
You can find a "Runs Allowed" stat at a lot of places, its obviously the same concept as ERA but counts both earned and unearned. I agree if you can't pitch over errors then you deserve to be punished.

Granted you'll have the miscues from the defense that directly correlate to a run or two scoring, but far more often you'll have a miscue merely let the inning continue... why shouldn't the pitcher be responsible for that?

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 06:32 PM
I might say the same if I threw a bat in the pitcher's direction.

Try that some time. You will get stomped within an inch of your life, perhaps by your own manager

Billy Ashley
05-20-2008, 06:45 PM
One thing I've always found amusing is when in the bottom of the 9th, during a tied game with two outs and the bases are loaded, why does this batter on deck even bother to take practice cuts at the on deck circle. I've seen this a couple of times and assume it's either a rule or just force of habit, but I've always found that to be funny.

fquaye149
05-20-2008, 06:49 PM
One thing I've always found amusing is when in the bottom of the 9th, during a tied game with two outs and the bases are loaded, why does this batter on deck even bother to take practice cuts at the on deck circle. I've seen this a couple of times and assume it's either a rule or just force of habit, but I've always found that to be funny.


That's a good question. Maybe to stay loose for next inning!

JB98
05-20-2008, 07:18 PM
One thing I've always found amusing is when in the bottom of the 9th, during a tied game with two outs and the bases are loaded, why does this batter on deck even bother to take practice cuts at the on deck circle. I've seen this a couple of times and assume it's either a rule or just force of habit, but I've always found that to be funny.

I think there's a rule that says somebody has to be on deck. But you're right: In that particular situation, it serves no purpose.

GAsoxfan
05-20-2008, 08:57 PM
Why can the batter run to first when the catcher drops strike three? This seems like a very random rule.

Huisj
05-20-2008, 10:24 PM
Why can the batter run to first when the catcher drops strike three? This seems like a very random rule.

My understanding of it was always that a putout must always be recorded for an out to be made, and if the catcher doesn't handle the ball clean, no putout has been made yet, so the runner can advance until the putout is made at first or he's tagged. But that's not based on any official knowledge, just how I justified it in my mind.

asindc
05-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Try that some time. You will get stomped within an inch of your life, perhaps by your own manager

You mean like Bert Campeneris of the A's back in the 70s. Didn't see any manager stomping back then. If a few more bats flew at the pitcher, then this nonsense of throwing a baseball at someone's head would end. Period. There is no justification for it.

voodoochile
05-21-2008, 12:12 AM
My understanding of it was always that a putout must always be recorded for an out to be made, and if the catcher doesn't handle the ball clean, no putout has been made yet, so the runner can advance until the putout is made at first or he's tagged. But that's not based on any official knowledge, just how I justified it in my mind.

It's not a catch until the player who caught the ball does something intentional with said ball. That can mean removing it from the glove by flipping it to someone else or by using the throwing hand or simply throwing the ball to someone else after making a barehand catch.

PeteWard
05-21-2008, 12:25 AM
Then I guess this game is founded on bull****. And has nothing but bull**** running through its history and tradition. The pitchers who wouldn't throw at a guy have long been the exception in baseball.

And yet you still have not explained why this is so bush!
It is not even close to a slow HR trot, or a Ramirez-esque pose at the plate

Personally, I think pointing to heaven after a strike out or HR or at whatever invisible friend you think has taken his eye off Burma and China to make sure you succeed in a game-- is much more bush--and nobody is getting beaned for that.

fquaye149
05-21-2008, 12:30 AM
And yet you still have not explained why this is so bush!
It is not even close to a slow HR trot, or a Ramirez-esque pose at the plate

Personally, I think pointing to heaven after a strike out or HR or at whatever invisible friend you think has taken his eye off Burma and China to make sure you succeed in a game-- is much more bush--and nobody is getting beaned for that.

I think we're talking about two different things. Standing in the on-deck circle, timing swings might piss the pitcher off, but it's not really bush.

Moving out of the on deck circle to get closer and timing pitches is what i'm talking about....and I don't feel like that requires any explanation as to why it's bush

thomas35forever
05-21-2008, 06:54 PM
When is defensive indifference called? I've seen stolen bases scored when there was no throw.

JB98
05-21-2008, 07:00 PM
When is defensive indifference called? I've seen stolen bases scored when there was no throw.

It's the official scorer's call. When they aren't holding the guy on, when the pitcher doesn't even bother to give the guy a look, when the defense doesn't bother to cover second, when the catcher doesn't make a throw.....those are all reasons for defensive indifference to be called.

asindc
05-21-2008, 07:43 PM
It's the official scorer's call. When they aren't holding the guy on, when the pitcher doesn't even bother to give the guy a look, when the defense doesn't bother to cover second, when the catcher doesn't make a throw.....those are all reasons for defensive indifference to be called.

I agree with Joe Morgan in this case that the runner should always be credited with a steal. If a team wants to take the next base, it is to their advantage. It's not his fault the other team doesn't care. After all, if a guy takes a strike three in a blowout just to end the AB, the pitcher is still credited with it.

WhiteSoxJunkie
05-22-2008, 12:01 AM
Why are the pitcher and catcher called the battery?

And why are the White Sox nicknamed the "Pale Hose"? Someone told me it's because pale is a synonym for white, and hose, which is short for pantyhose, are just like socks. But is that true?

ondafarm
05-22-2008, 10:14 AM
One thing I've always found amusing is when in the bottom of the 9th, during a tied game with two outs and the bases are loaded, why does this batter on deck even bother to take practice cuts at the on deck circle. I've seen this a couple of times and assume it's either a rule or just force of habit, but I've always found that to be funny.

Okay, this is one that a lot of fans and even casual players miss.

While the practice cuts are probably just force of habit, the reason someone is in the on-deck circle is because they have an important job. When you are on-deck you are the base coach for the plate. That means that should there be a tag play at the plate then you are supposed to be there and giving the runner a heads up on where the ball is and should he slide or come in standing. It is actually a very important job.

ondafarm
05-22-2008, 10:16 AM
My, I don't understand is why runners on base now carry gloves. Not wear gloves, but carry them, one in each hand. A batting glove is one thing and handing that to the coach and putting on a base stealing glove I understand. But why carry one in each hand if you don't put them on?

Eddo144
05-22-2008, 10:17 AM
Why are the pitcher and catcher called the battery?
I could be wrong, but I think it's because they are what "powers" the game in a way. Nothing can happen until the pitcher has thrown the ball (and then, in most cases, the catcher throws it back).

And why are the White Sox nicknamed the "Pale Hose"? Someone told me it's because pale is a synonym for white, and hose, which is short for pantyhose, are just like socks. But is that true?
Bingo. As opposed to the Red Sox, the White Sox do indeed have pale (whiter) hose (socks).

daveeym
05-22-2008, 10:52 AM
My, I don't understand is why runners on base now carry gloves. Not wear gloves, but carry them, one in each hand. A batting glove is one thing and handing that to the coach and putting on a base stealing glove I understand. But why carry one in each hand if you don't put them on?To keep their hands in a fist so they have less of a chance to break their fingers while sliding. They won't tangle their fingers on the bag or have them exposed for the ******* fielders that use their knees and legs to "block" the base. Some also do it because they drag their hands while sliding feet first leading to sprained wrists. In theory it's supposed to keep them from doing that and will keep their hands off the ground.

Madvora
05-22-2008, 10:55 AM
My, I don't understand is why runners on base now carry gloves. Not wear gloves, but carry them, one in each hand. A batting glove is one thing and handing that to the coach and putting on a base stealing glove I understand. But why carry one in each hand if you don't put them on?
I've heard they do this to avoid getting their fingers jammed or broken on a slide. It keeps your fingers closed in a fist-like grip.
I don't understand why they change gloves to do this though. I also don't understand why Konkero has to worry about something like this. I always see him carrying gloves and he's the last person you'd expect to attempt a headfirst slide.

Hitmenof77
05-22-2008, 11:00 AM
Juan Marichal is pretty much understood to be a ******** for doing that. And people think of it as one of the most despicable acts in sports history.

Same thing with the backlash after Frank Thomas (the old Frank Thomas) hit Dick Allen with a bat in a pregame fight.


The backlash from the old Frank Thomas??? I thought it was Dick Allen who got the backlash

Iwritecode
05-22-2008, 11:39 AM
I think we're talking about two different things. Standing in the on-deck circle, timing swings might piss the pitcher off, but it's not really bush.

Moving out of the on deck circle to get closer and timing pitches is what i'm talking about....and I don't feel like that requires any explanation as to why it's bush

That's the first time in this entire thread you've made that distinction.

fquaye149
05-22-2008, 11:59 AM
That's the first time in this entire thread you've made that distinction.

I thought it was just assumed. My bad :shrug:

It's still poor form to time it in the on-deck circle, but not nearly in teh same league as trying to get a different vantage point.

Why is it poor form? :shrug: Just is

fquaye149
05-22-2008, 12:00 PM
The backlash from the old Frank Thomas??? I thought it was Dick Allen who got the backlash

He got it for fighting with a teammate and for being Dick Allen. But Thomas got it too, and the only reason he did was because he used his bat. Otherwise everyone would have had his back.

Paulwny
05-22-2008, 12:22 PM
[quote=Madvora;1899796]I've heard they do this to avoid getting their fingers jammed or broken on a slide. It keeps your fingers closed in a fist-like grip.
quote]

Correct, back in the day base stealers often scooped up some dirt in their hands to maintain a fist. Some were actually adept at being able to toss the dirt toward an infielder on a close play at a bag.You often notice in old films dust flying when a runner would slide.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 04:51 PM
As a pitcher, I definitely understand the need for a bean-ball now and then, whether it be someone showing me up or an opposing coach being a loudmouth (FedEx knows what I mean). I have done it, I have seen it done, and I have been the victim of it, and I cannot deny that it is a part of baseball, like it or not.

However, hitting someone purposely with a pitched ball repeatedly is assault. And more than that, it is aggravated assault (causing an injury purposefully, knowingly or recklessly where the person has demonstrated indifference to human life), and some people might be lucky that the statute of limitations on a criminal tort is only 7 years.

You bean a guy once to send a message, and whether he receives that message or not, odds are that someone on the team got the message (as Daver even said, the coach came up and thanked him for sending the message). Sending a message, IMO, is all the bean-ball is supposed to do. It is unlikely that you are going to get someone to immediately change the way they approach the game (as this guy kept timing pitches near the plate, which is the exact definition of bush), and repeatedly hitting them repeatedly with pitches is going to result in either injury or suspension of the pitcher/manager or both. After you hit the guy once, he will eventually get the message you were trying to send, but there is no reason (be it the 1970's or those oh-so-touchy-feely 90's) to endanger someone's health by repeatedly hitting them with pitches.

FedEx227
05-29-2008, 05:48 PM
I thought it was just assumed. My bad :shrug:

It's still poor form to time it in the on-deck circle, but not nearly in teh same league as trying to get a different vantage point.

Why is it poor form? :shrug: Just is

I suppose that was just misunderstanding from all of us. I absolutely see what you mean now.

Daver
05-29-2008, 05:52 PM
As a pitcher, I definitely understand the need for a bean-ball now and then, whether it be someone showing me up or an opposing coach being a loudmouth (FedEx knows what I mean). I have done it, I have seen it done, and I have been the victim of it, and I cannot deny that it is a part of baseball, like it or not.

However, hitting someone purposely with a pitched ball repeatedly is assault. And more than that, it is aggravated assault (causing an injury purposefully, knowingly or recklessly where the person has demonstrated indifference to human life), and some people might be lucky that the statute of limitations on a criminal tort is only 7 years.

You bean a guy once to send a message, and whether he receives that message or not, odds are that someone on the team got the message (as Daver even said, the coach came up and thanked him for sending the message). Sending a message, IMO, is all the bean-ball is supposed to do. It is unlikely that you are going to get someone to immediately change the way they approach the game (as this guy kept timing pitches near the plate, which is the exact definition of bush), and repeatedly hitting them repeatedly with pitches is going to result in either injury or suspension of the pitcher/manager or both. After you hit the guy once, he will eventually get the message you were trying to send, but there is no reason (be it the 1970's or those oh-so-touchy-feely 90's) to endanger someone's health by repeatedly hitting them with pitches.

Some people don't learn the first time.

doublem23
05-29-2008, 05:56 PM
And why are the White Sox nicknamed the "Pale Hose"? Someone told me it's because pale is a synonym for white, and hose, which is short for pantyhose, are just like socks. But is that true?

Yes.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 05:58 PM
Some people don't learn the first time.

Then you do it maybe once more (not head-hunting) if the "code" infraction continues, but to continue on head-hunting the same guy and causing physical harm (what was the total? 3 ribs and a cracked helmet?), that's entering into the Criminal Assault realm.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 05:59 PM
And why are the White Sox nicknamed the "Pale Hose"? Someone told me it's because pale is a synonym for white, and hose, which is short for pantyhose, are just like socks. But is that true?

Yes.

Wow, it's sad that it took me that long to get that...wow

Daver
05-29-2008, 06:15 PM
Then you do it maybe once more (not head-hunting) if the "code" infraction continues, but to continue on head-hunting the same guy and causing physical harm (what was the total? 3 ribs and a cracked helmet?), that's entering into the Criminal Assault realm.

We threw at his head twice, the first AB of both games, the rest were on the back or on the leg. Some people really are a special kind of stupid, his coach finally pulled him out of the game after the ninth time he got hit for timing pitches behind the screen. I don't know if he thought he could out macho my pitchers or what.

He was actually lucky, our ace of the staff would have hit him in the hands.

FedEx227
05-29-2008, 06:21 PM
We threw at his head twice, the first AB of both games, the rest were on the back or on the leg. Some people really are a special kind of stupid, his coach finally pulled him out of the game after the ninth time he got hit for timing pitches behind the screen. I don't know if he thought he could out macho my pitchers or what.

He was actually lucky, our ace of the staff would have hit him in the hands.

What were the final scores of these games?

Daver
05-29-2008, 06:25 PM
What were the final scores of these games?


I don't remember the scores, we won both games, our team that year competed for the regional title.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 06:30 PM
It's an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, and it is a bush league move. I had one guy that couldn't take a hint, he got 13 consecutive HBP's, his team mates told me he was bruised for two weeks from it.

Ok, so here it is 13 HBP's

We threw at his head twice, the first AB of both games, the rest were on the back or on the leg. Some people really are a special kind of stupid, his coach finally pulled him out of the game after the ninth time he got hit for timing pitches behind the screen.

Now it is 9 HBP's

I don't know if he thought he could out macho my pitchers or what.

He was actually lucky, our ace of the staff would have hit him in the hands.

I don't know what the actual number is, because it changes every time.

However, the bean-ball is acceptable when it is necessary; head-hunting once: closely bordering unacceptable; head-hunting twice or more: unacceptable from a player and especially a manager.

If this guy was in fact bruised or had a broken anything, it is the pitchers that are lucky he did not press charges, charges to which you could have possibly be made an accomplice to. I don't care what this kid was doing on the ball field (or behind the backstop), he did not deserve to be criminally assaulted by the pitcher(s), and there is no baseball "code" that would back the HBP's up, regardless of what decade it was.

Daver
05-29-2008, 06:34 PM
Ok, so here it is 13 HBP's



Now it is 9 HBP's



I don't know what the actual number is, because it changes every time.

However, the bean-ball is acceptable when it is necessary; head-hunting once: closely bordering unacceptable; head-hunting twice or more: unacceptable from a player and especially a manager.

If this guy was in fact bruised or had a broken anything, it is the pitchers that are lucky he did not press charges, charges to which you could have possibly be made an accomplice to. I don't care what this kid was doing on the ball field (or behind the backstop), he did not deserve to be criminally assaulted by the pitcher(s), and there is no baseball "code" that would back the HBP's up, regardless of what decade it was.

I'd do the same thing if I were to catch a game tomorrow, try and make the charges stick, I wish you luck.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 06:38 PM
I'd do the same thing if I were to catch a game tomorrow, try and make the charges stick, I wish you luck.

Wow...just...wow...

comet2k
05-29-2008, 06:38 PM
All good baserunners do that. Jackie Robinson and Lou Brock were pros at it. I agree with the latter two, but if the pitcher is that distracted, too ****ing bad for him. I show plenty of respect for the game, when I hit a little ground ball I run hard even though I'll be out by plenty, when you hit a homerun you're not supposed to look at it as though it were a work of art, after a strikeout you shouldn't dance like crazy. THAT is showing respect to the game. Dancing off the base is part of the game. The pitcher should be more worried about the guy with the stick anyways.

As for digging in, I crowd the plate a bit and I expect to get hit for it from time to time, and yes, it hurts (I won't let the pitcher know that though!), but I'll take getting on base to striking out because I can't reach the outside corner every day thank you very much...finally for proving a point, the few times I told the catcher to hit a guy I told him to put in his back. Aiming at a guy's head is wrong. "Ha! I killed the son of a bitch! NOW he won't crowd the plate!" Also if a guy is getting hit thirteen times, good for him but his pitchers better be hitting someone else thirteen times. Also if there was a play at hte plate and I'm the runner, I sure as hell wouldn't be sliding.

But in the games that I played it was NEVER this intense. Most of hte pitchers couldn't throw a strike much less intentionally hit a guy. The umps in today's game also have way too much control. I once got hit by a pitch twice in a game and I was talking to the first baseman who said "Just so you know, he doesn't know where the ball is going...I just wanted to let you know that so you don't hit ME!"

That's funny, but it also would be awfully scarythe next time up.

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 06:38 PM
Wow...just...wow...

grow up.

Are you one of those guys who's like "why do they have to ruin a perfectly good game of hockey by FIGHTING?!?!"

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 06:45 PM
grow up.

Are you one of those guys who's like "why do they have to ruin a perfectly good game of hockey by FIGHTING?!?!"

If by "grow up" you mean accept that aggravated assault on a high-school baseball field is "OK" and proves that you're "macho" then no, I would prefer to stay juvenile, thank you.

Hockey fights? Are you serious? Are you really comparing 9 straight HBP's (or 13, or whatever number someone can dream up next) of a kid to grown men playing a professional sport where charges have been actually filed for on-ice altercations?

whitesox901
05-29-2008, 06:52 PM
i know if you go onto the field unathorized, your outta there. but when you see people reach for fouls and go tumbling onto the field and run back in the seats. they are not escorted out are they? or does security realize it was an accident?

TDog
05-29-2008, 07:12 PM
Why are the pitcher and catcher called the battery?

And why are the White Sox nicknamed the "Pale Hose"? Someone told me it's because pale is a synonym for white, and hose, which is short for pantyhose, are just like socks. But is that true?


Why are the Pirates called the Bucs or Buckos or whatever. Because it's short for Bucaneers, which is synonymous with Pirates. Sportswriters didn't like repeating the team's name over and over. There was a time when reporting involved the craft of writing. The Cubs used to be called Bruins sometimes. The Sporting News in the early 1970s had a story about every team every week. At the end, there were notes -- titled Sox Yarns and Bruins Briefs, as they applied to the White Sox and Cubs.

For that matter, why is a no-hitter called a "no-no?" Because "no-hit, no-run game" was too long to fit into headlines. Now many people don't even realize a no-no is a shutout as well as a no-hitter. That is, it was long before the ninth inning when Gavin Floyd lost his "no-no" to the Twins. Saying "no-hitter" should be sufficiently respectful to the accomplishment anyway.

"Battery" is a term that goes back to the 1860s, comparing the pitcher and catcher to artillery batteries in the Civil War. I think the term was coined by Henry Chadwick. Walt Whitman wrote some poetry and essays and was a baseball fan during the Civil War, but I'm not sure if he had anything to do with coining the terms "battery," "batterymen" or "battermate."

As far as running gloves are concerned, players who run into bases hands first -- that includes diving back into a base on a pickoff attempt -- often like to protect their hands from getting torn up in the lose mixture that comprises the surface area around the bases of most ballparks.

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 07:24 PM
If by "grow up" you mean accept that aggravated assault on a high-school baseball field is "OK" and proves that you're "macho" then no, I would prefer to stay juvenile, thank you.

Hockey fights? Are you serious? Are you really comparing 9 straight HBP's (or 13, or whatever number someone can dream up next) of a kid to grown men playing a professional sport where charges have been actually filed for on-ice altercations?

Yes, I am comparing direct assault face to face with something that can be pretty easily dodged :rolleyes:

Sports are a macho activity, and despite the disneyification of the sports world by certain media outlets, sports will always be a macho activity.

Deal with it.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 07:33 PM
Yes, I am comparing direct assault face to face with something that can be pretty easily dodged :rolleyes:

Sports are a macho activity, and despite the disneyification of the sports world by certain media outlets, sports will always be a macho activity.

Deal with it.

Being "macho" has nothing to do with throwing at somebody with the intent to hurt them...err, excuse me, "teach them a lesson". And even if the intent was not to hurt this kid, then bragging about it years later certainly has to say something of the intent of the people during the event. You can be "macho" all you want and strut around the weight room and "grind" and get dirty on the baseball field and go into second hard to break up a double play, but 9 HBP's of the same kid goes way beyond "macho games" or "teaching a lesson". Deal with it

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 07:46 PM
Being "macho" has nothing to do with throwing at somebody with the intent to hurt them...err, excuse me, "teach them a lesson". And even if the intent was not to hurt this kid, then bragging about it years later certainly has to say something of the intent of the people during the event. You can be "macho" all you want and strut around the weight room and "grind" and get dirty on the baseball field and go into second hard to break up a double play, but 9 HBP's of the same kid goes way beyond "macho games" or "teaching a lesson". Deal with it

I know you play sports, so don't play dumb.

This is the way things go in sports. Being "macho" has everything to do with throwing at somebody with the inent to hurt them.

If you don't think so, you clearly are out of touch with how most people who play sports think.

Lefty34
05-29-2008, 08:00 PM
I know you play sports, so don't play dumb.

This is the way things go in sports. Being "macho" has everything to do with throwing at somebody with the inent to hurt them.

If you don't think so, you clearly are out of touch with how most people who play sports think.

True, throwing a bean-ball is clearly meant to cause someone enough pain so as to make sure they don't do a certain thing again, and I admit to having done it myself (this spring, in fact) as a pitcher. However I think any reasonable human being (and that includes "macho" sports guys) would draw the line way before 9 straight HBP's that, if Daver is to believed, may have caused some serious injuries. More than that, this were high-school kids throwing at another high-school kid at least 9 times, that should be the line not to cross in and of itself.

Again, I have admitted to being "macho" on the mound and grooving a fastball into someone's hip or ass, but even I cringe at the thought of throwing at someone with the intention to hurt them 9 consecutive times. That is too much. Did he deserve a little chin-music to put him on his ass once? Yes, of course he did. But at some point you have to let the bush-leaguing go or risk seriously injuring someone, and said injuries would have resulted from a catcher, coach or pitcher being erroneously "macho" and not from a part of the game.

Domeshot17
05-29-2008, 08:08 PM
you have to play the game hard. If it took the kid 9 HBP to get it, it took 9. Especially when you start talking competitive level high school and college ball, you deal with a lot of cocky kids. Summer League little league club ball whatever isn't entirely the same, but close enough.

In high school summer leagues we had a game where out pitcher had some off field problems with the other team. Long story short his gf cheated on him with some dude on the opposing team earlier in the year. So they were talking **** to him getting in his head, so when the kid got on first, I told the pitcher to throw over, and a nice hard tag into the kids jaw, next play I said he had a huge lead and same thing. this time made sure the ball was in the part of my glove that got his face. Needless to say he went back to the dugout and not another word was said.

There are times you have to take control, and you can call it macho or dumb or whatever, but especially if you are a team captain or just looked upon as a leader, you have to have the guts to play hard and put a situation to rest.

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 08:33 PM
you have to play the game hard. If it took the kid 9 HBP to get it, it took 9. Especially when you start talking competitive level high school and college ball, you deal with a lot of cocky kids. Summer League little league club ball whatever isn't entirely the same, but close enough.

In high school summer leagues we had a game where out pitcher had some off field problems with the other team. Long story short his gf cheated on him with some dude on the opposing team earlier in the year. So they were talking **** to him getting in his head, so when the kid got on first, I told the pitcher to throw over, and a nice hard tag into the kids jaw, next play I said he had a huge lead and same thing. this time made sure the ball was in the part of my glove that got his face. Needless to say he went back to the dugout and not another word was said.

There are times you have to take control, and you can call it macho or dumb or whatever, but especially if you are a team captain or just looked upon as a leader, you have to have the guts to play hard and put a situation to rest.

Exactly. It's sports. It's going to involve exaggerated masculinity whether or not people like it.

I personally have no problem with it, since it's the way I was taught to play and it's not really like anyone's talking serious injury. You expect to get banged up playing sports because, well, it's sports

Domeshot17
05-29-2008, 08:58 PM
Exactly. It's sports. It's going to involve exaggerated masculinity whether or not people like it.

I personally have no problem with it, since it's the way I was taught to play and it's not really like anyone's talking serious injury. You expect to get banged up playing sports because, well, it's sports

Bingo. Like in my situation, I don't care if they give him crap all night at a party, but don't bring it to the field.

Daver
05-29-2008, 09:22 PM
True, throwing a bean-ball is clearly meant to cause someone enough pain so as to make sure they don't do a certain thing again, and I admit to having done it myself (this spring, in fact) as a pitcher. However I think any reasonable human being (and that includes "macho" sports guys) would draw the line way before 9 straight HBP's that, if Daver is to believed, may have caused some serious injuries. More than that, this were high-school kids throwing at another high-school kid at least 9 times, that should be the line not to cross in and of itself.

Again, I have admitted to being "macho" on the mound and grooving a fastball into someone's hip or ass, but even I cringe at the thought of throwing at someone with the intention to hurt them 9 consecutive times. That is too much. Did he deserve a little chin-music to put him on his ass once? Yes, of course he did. But at some point you have to let the bush-leaguing go or risk seriously injuring someone, and said injuries would have resulted from a catcher, coach or pitcher being erroneously "macho" and not from a part of the game.

If the world was fair, the catcher would be thrown out of the game on an intentional HBP, the pitcher is doing what he was told to do.

Guess what?

Life ain't fair.

Bucky F. Dent
05-29-2008, 10:07 PM
To think that this thread started out as an innocent question about the two circles of dirt to the sides of home plate.

Gavin
05-29-2008, 10:12 PM
If the world was fair, the catcher would be thrown out of the game on an intentional HBP, the pitcher is doing what he was told to do.

Guess what?

Life ain't fair.

Huh?

fquaye149
05-29-2008, 10:14 PM
Huh?

when you get on the floor, throw them 'bows

gregoriop
05-29-2008, 10:58 PM
To think that this thread started out as an innocent question about the two circles of dirt to the sides of home plate.


:redface:
It was an innocent question. I'm almost sorry I asked now though.

ondafarm
06-10-2008, 10:13 AM
I don't see the thread where the question was asked, so forgive me if this is disconnected.

Weeks ago, there was a thread about things we don't understand in baseball. A question came up about the dirt circles to the right and left of the home plate area. The ones right by the foul lines and just a few feet from the dirt circle for home plate.

Okay, I've done a little digging and have an answer.

They are called the "fungo circles". Under the original owner's agreement (back in something like 1912) every park had to provide the two level, dirt circles for the purpose of infield and outfield practice to be of the same type of surface as the batting boxes. They were required to be uncovered and available for both infield and outfield practice (whereas the batting boxes were only manadated for batting practice.) They've been written out of subsequent agreements, but many parks retain them.

I want Mags back
06-10-2008, 10:42 AM
I remember Rooney always calling them the "fungo circles." Didnt know what that meant

Iwritecode
06-10-2008, 10:49 AM
It was answered in the second post of the thread. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=101301)

rookieroy
06-10-2008, 10:59 AM
This has always been a question that is asked by fans that don't typically watch batting practice prior to a game.

WhiteSox5187
06-10-2008, 02:23 PM
I saw a photo of the Polo Grounds circa 1913 and there were like eight different fungo circles, it was on Uniwatchblog.com, I should see if it is still there.

mantis1212
06-10-2008, 02:30 PM
Just like the bat used to hit infield and outfield practice is called a fungo bat, from what I've heard

Nellie_Fox
06-11-2008, 02:09 AM
Just like the bat used to hit infield and outfield practice is called a fungo bat, from what I've heardI've always heard it called a "fungo stick." Some of the old-time coaches could make a ball sing an aria from Aida with a fungo stick.

TDog
06-11-2008, 05:32 AM
I've always heard it called a "fungo stick." Some of the old-time coaches could make a ball sing an aria from Aida with a fungo stick.

In 1972, Nellie Fox was a coach for the Rangers under manager Ted Williams. Before a game against the White Sox in Arlington in June, before I got his autograph and after they removed the batting cage, Fox was standing at home plate with a fungo bat, or stick if you will, with catcher Dick Billings crouched behind him. Fox, facing the centerfield scoreboard shaped like the state of Texas, hit popups straight back that stayed in play just in front of the screen for Billings to catch. It was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen a coach do.

kraut83
06-11-2008, 09:50 AM
Dumb question:

Everybody wore eye black in the 80's. Now I can't recall the last time I saw anybody wearing it. What gives?

Paulwny
06-11-2008, 01:10 PM
Dumb question:

Everybody wore eye black in the 80's. Now I can't recall the last time I saw anybody wearing it. What gives?


Sun glasses have become more fashionable.

Gregory Pratt
06-13-2008, 07:54 PM
Do you have any concept of how baseball was before the touchy feely 90's?

I'll bet you're the kind of guy who wouldn't let his players get water because it "builds character" too, right? Because that's how it was "before the touchy feely 90s"?

I am an advocate of the brushback, and always have been. Pitchers shouldn't be afraid to pitch inside or occasionally tell the hitter that he owns the plate. But hitting a guy in the head or calling for it is a disgrace and there should not be equivocation no matter what the circumstances.

I'm not sure how I feel about hitting a guy for timing your pitches, as I always did that in the on-deck circle but no one ever confronted me about it, but I do know that I have a big problem with someone throwing at someone's head for it.

pierzynski07
06-15-2008, 11:10 AM
How come in some situations in which a ball is ruled dead, the batter and baserunners get two bases each, no more no less (ground rule double), while in others, the umpire determines how many bases everyone gets?

My issue comes with fair balls that bounce out of the park. Why only two for everyone?

getonbckthr
06-15-2008, 12:18 PM
I'll bet you're the kind of guy who wouldn't let his players get water because it "builds character" too, right? Because that's how it was "before the touchy feely 90s"?

I am an advocate of the brushback, and always have been. Pitchers shouldn't be afraid to pitch inside or occasionally tell the hitter that he owns the plate. But hitting a guy in the head or calling for it is a disgrace and there should not be equivocation no matter what the circumstances.

I'm not sure how I feel about hitting a guy for timing your pitches, as I always did that in the on-deck circle but no one ever confronted me about it, but I do know that I have a big problem with someone throwing at someone's head for it.
Are you gonna guess pitches and dive over the plate knowing there is a chance a 95mph fastball is coming at your dome? Chances are no, therefor the purpose is effective and utilized.

Hitmenof77
06-15-2008, 03:17 PM
Dumb question:

Everybody wore eye black in the 80's. Now I can't recall the last time I saw anybody wearing it. What gives?


I see players wearing the the eye strips/patches now instead of eye black. They had sunglasses back in the 80's, those flipdown glasses that some players forgot to flip down. A few player still use those flipdowns today.

FedEx227
06-15-2008, 10:19 PM
I see players wearing the the eye strips/patches now instead of eye black. They had sunglasses back in the 80's, those flipdown glasses that some players forgot to flip down. A few player still use those flipdowns today.

http://soxpride.mlblogs.com/sox_pride/images/farmer.jpg

Lefty34
06-15-2008, 11:02 PM
Are you gonna guess pitches and dive over the plate knowing there is a chance a 95mph fastball is coming at your dome? Chances are no, therefor the purpose is effective and utilized.

That still doesn't allow for throwing of said "95 mph fastball" (though since the original story originated in 'high school' I'm not likely to believe anyone was throwing 95) at someone's head. This is not Bull Durham, and you are neither Crash Davis nor Nuke Lalush. The brushback has it's place, to be sure, but that place resides nowhere [I]near high school baseball. The only thing that would call for such a practice (throwing at a high school kid's head) is someone exaggerating trying to be "macho" with the anonymity of online forums.

And besides, true hitters have the ability to stay at home (keep their front-side closed without leaning over too much) and slap the ball into right field or get a piece of one to get another pitch. And if the pitcher is smart and throws a nasty deuce at you and you were expecting something else, you kindly tip your cap and head back to the dugout.

UofCSoxFan
06-16-2008, 02:46 AM
How come in some situations in which a ball is ruled dead, the batter and baserunners get two bases each, no more no less (ground rule double), while in others, the umpire determines how many bases everyone gets?

My issue comes with fair balls that bounce out of the park. Why only two for everyone?

A ball that bounces over the fence is awarded two baseses whereas a ball interfered with by a fan leaves it to the umpire's descretion as to how many bases to award (although it is usually two).

I think the issue is that in the first case, the play is determined by the players. A player hits the ball and it happens to bounce over the fense.

In the second case the fan element is involved. A player hits the ball and a fan alters the game by touching an in play ball. Giving the umpires descrition to award more than two bases (based on what would have happened had the ball not been touched) allows for the umpires to correct for this and prevents fans from altering the outcome of a game. The classic case the "automatic 2" would alter the game would be when a ball hit down the right field line by the visiting team with a runner on first and a saavy fan may touch the ball in hopes of keeping the run at third whereas he would likely score if the play was left alone. Hell it wouldn't be that far fetched for a home team to station its own employees down the line in a World Series game to interfere if such a situation came up (there are certainly some owners that would consider this I have no doubt). The rule as constructed makes it irrelavant that the fan touched the ball since the runner at first could be awarded home.

I can see where the case could be made for allowing descrtioin in both cases, but making it an automatic two for a ground rule double makes it a much easier call for the umpires as it is a pre-existing rule that all are aware of before the game. Since it is only influcenced by the players on the field it is fair to all. Given descretion is necessary and trumps making it an easier call for the umpires.

I hope this makes sense.

UofCSoxFan
06-16-2008, 02:51 AM
That still doesn't allow for throwing of said "95 mph fastball" (though since the original story originated in 'high school' I'm not likely to believe anyone was throwing 95) at someone's head. This is not Bull Durham, and you are neither Crash Davis nor Nuke Lalush. The brushback has it's place, to be sure, but that place resides nowhere [I]near high school baseball. The only thing that would call for such a practice (throwing at a high school kid's head) is someone exaggerating trying to be "macho" with the anonymity of online forums.

And besides, true hitters have the ability to stay at home (keep their front-side closed without leaning over too much) and slap the ball into right field or get a piece of one to get another pitch. And if the pitcher is smart and throws a nasty deuce at you and you were expecting something else, you kindly tip your cap and head back to the dugout.

Bottom line: Hitting people intentially has a place in baseball as a stratetic element (and yes that includes high school baseball which like it or not is pretty competitive, especially when people are getting million dollar signing bonuses out of it).

Throwing at someone's head has no place anywhere. You can end someone's career or even their life. That is complete chicken ****.

Being able to pitch inside and beling able to put some fear or at least discomfort in a batter is very important to being a successful pitcher. One could easily argue that it is even more important in high school or college because of the metal bat makes pitching inside even more difficult. But again, throwing at someone's head is complete crap and I'd venture to guess it hardly ever happens at the major league level. Hitting a guy mid thigh gets the point across just fine and with the exception of a few complete jerks, most major league pitchers won't try to hit a guy in the head because they know what damage they could do.

UofCSoxFan
06-16-2008, 02:58 AM
I see players wearing the the eye strips/patches now instead of eye black. They had sunglasses back in the 80's, those flipdown glasses that some players forgot to flip down. A few player still use those flipdowns today.

I think a lot of it has to do with looking cool...I mean a pair of Oakley's look a lot better than the flips even though the flips allow you to better see a ground ball, where there is no need to shade your eyes.

I personally hated fielding ground balls with sunglasses on and hitting...well forget about it....so when I played in collge I would just go with the eye black to cut down on the glare and used my glove to shield my eyes on pop-ups, unless the sun was really bad. I would also use the real eye black as I kind of liked when it got smeared/messy. Obviously that's the reason behind the move to the strips for a lot of players.

Interesting to see Swisher wear the blue eye black today for father's day (or would it be "eye blue?")

SluggersAway
06-16-2008, 04:45 AM
There are some serious holes in Daver's story.

13 HBP's? How does a player get thirteen at bats in a game? Or did you just keep chucking baseballs out to the mound to let the pitcher nail the kid with?

2 cracked ribs? One wasn't enough to sit him?

Two cracked batting helmets and the kid did not finish out the game?

An opposing coach that thanks you for throwing at a High School junior thirteen times for swinging after a pitcher throws his ball when warming up?

Then Daver mentions only 9 HBP's.

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

This is comedy at its finest.

fram40
06-16-2008, 02:34 PM
I agree with this. If Gomez would usually bunt in that situation, I don't see it as bush league. Like you said, if a team is not prepared for it, shame on them.

I'd like to take this thread back to the bunting during a no-hitter issue and ask a question ... At what point during a no-hitter does it become bush to bunt?

If we assume a perfect game in progress (does that change the unwrittenrule?) - leadoff man Gomez would bat in the 1st, 4th and 7th. Is it bush to bunt in the 4th? definitely the 7th, I would think. What about Crawford of TB? batting ninth, he would bat in the 3rd, 6th, and 9th. Is it bush to bunt in the 6th inning of a no-hitter?

At what point does the pitcher throwing a no-hitter become persona non grata on the bench? Is it the same point as the unwritten bunt rule? Are the two points related? or independent of each other? Thanks

jabrch
06-16-2008, 02:52 PM
I'd like to take this thread back to the bunting during a no-hitter issue and ask a question ... At what point during a no-hitter does it become bush to bunt?

If we assume a perfect game in progress (does that change the unwrittenrule?) - leadoff man Gomez would bat in the 1st, 4th and 7th. Is it bush to bunt in the 4th? definitely the 7th, I would think. What about Crawford of TB? batting ninth, he would bat in the 3rd, 6th, and 9th. Is it bush to bunt in the 6th inning of a no-hitter?

At what point does the pitcher throwing a no-hitter become persona non grata on the bench? Is it the same point as the unwritten bunt rule? Are the two points related? or independent of each other? Thanks

Part of this one largely depends on the score.

If it is a close game - it is NEVER bush. But if it is a 9-0 game - that's a different story.

Lefty34
06-16-2008, 09:53 PM
There are some serious holes in Daver's story.

13 HBP's? How does a player get thirteen at bats in a game? Or did you just keep chucking baseballs out to the mound to let the pitcher nail the kid with?

2 cracked ribs? One wasn't enough to sit him?

Two cracked batting helmets and the kid did not finish out the game?

An opposing coach that thanks you for throwing at a High School junior thirteen times for swinging after a pitcher throws his ball when warming up?

Then Daver mentions only 9 HBP's.

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

This is comedy at its finest.

Don't you get it? This was not done during those *****-footing 90's, this happened when high school baseball was played the way high school baseball was meant to be played: Tough and more Tough, with oh-so-many HBP's. In high school baseball, you're supposed to care enough about the other team respecting you that you endanger someone's life in order to prove your point. There were no touchy-feelly lawyers their to ruin all the fun, what with their papers alleging torts of battery and gross negligence.

This was a time when baseball was at it's purest, when your score at the end of the game didn't matter as long as you got the closest to putting someone in the hospital, that is the mark of a true champion. There was less running in practice for the kid that was able to hurt another kid enough so as to produce totally awesome stories that could be embellished upon decades later online.

Anyway, I'm with UofC on this, I believe that the brush back and the purpose pitch have their place in baseball (again, as a pitcher, I can attest to this). However, I believe that the line has to be drawn at head-hunting, because even one screw up is enough to kill someone or seriously injure them, and at that point it is no longer a game, it is a crime. On the other hand, I think that the way umpires in the MLB nowadays are warning benches and tossing players a little too prematurely (someone would have been ejected even if Richie Sexson wasn't a complete tool), but I can still see their objective.

pierzynski07
06-16-2008, 10:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Davis_%28baseball%29

Apparently, with a 2-0 lead, and a perfect game into the 8th inning, a bunt is a no-no.

JB98
06-16-2008, 11:18 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Davis_%28baseball%29

Apparently, with a 2-0 lead, and a perfect game into the 8th inning, a bunt is a no-no.

According to Bob Brenly.

In a 2-0 game, I think it is OK. He's trying to get on base, to get the tying run to the plate.

pierzynski07
06-16-2008, 11:23 PM
Well several players were upset by it as well.

Shilling also said that in that situation, the hitter should earn his way on base.

OK, why don't they just outlaw bunts for hits by those with no speed?

JB98
06-16-2008, 11:37 PM
Well several players were upset by it as well.

Shilling also said that in that situation, the hitter should earn his way on base.

OK, why don't they just outlaw bunts for hits by those with no speed?

As far as I'm concerned, the players who were upset can stick it too.

Davis's job was to try to help his team win the game, not ensure Schilling's place in history.

As for Schilling's comment, I would say Davis did earn his way on base. He noted the second baseman was playing back, and he put the ball in a place where no one could field it.

pierzynski07
06-16-2008, 11:51 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the players who were upset can stick it too.

Davis's job was to try to help his team win the game, not ensure Schilling's place in history.

As for Schilling's comment, I would say Davis did earn his way on base. He noted the second baseman was playing back, and he put the ball in a place where no one could field it.
Exactly.

If a pitcher is doing so well, why would he need an unwritten rule to help him out?