PDA

View Full Version : 670 Post game show


emiller4
05-17-2008, 02:05 AM
Was anyone listening to the 670 post game show when the caller (me) asked if trading Gio Gonzalez and de los Santos for Swish was a bad idea and that we should have just put the money for Rowand up? My phone went dead right as he started to answer the question so I heard him say "thanks for the call but no..." and thats all. Thanks.

Boondock Saint
05-17-2008, 02:19 AM
I wasn't listening, but Ranger was right. Gio is at least a year a way, DLS is at least two years away, and Sweeney is a corner outfielder, which we obviously don't need right now. And further still, they've proven nothing in the majors. Swisher is helping us right now.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2008, 06:36 AM
Swisher is helping us right now.

That's debatable. :(:

munchman33
05-17-2008, 09:37 AM
That's debatable. :(:

No kidding. I pretty much hate BA, but at least he's a plus defender. I'd rather he was playing right now.

FarWestChicago
05-17-2008, 09:46 AM
No kidding. I pretty much hate BA, but at least he's a plus defender. I'd rather he was playing right now.There are only three letters you like:

DLS

voodoochile
05-17-2008, 09:51 AM
There are only three letters you like:

DLS

Yeah, if Brian Nikola Anderson was known as BNA instead of simply BA around these parts, Munch would probably like him too...

JermaineDye05
05-17-2008, 12:50 PM
No kidding. I pretty much hate BA, but at least he's a plus defender. I'd rather he was playing right now.

Swish is locked up for 4 more years I believe, and he's shown over his career to be a plus hitter. I think as soon as he's moved to left or first next season he'll be fine. Maybe if Dye Thome or Konerko get traded this season we can have BA starting in center and Swish to first or the OF. Although I know plenty of people who will condemn this team on the spot saying something like. "If BA is starting in centerfield this team will be lucky to get 3rd place"

EMachine10
05-17-2008, 01:42 PM
Swish is locked up for 4 more years I believe, and he's shown over his career to be a plus hitter. I think as soon as he's moved to left or first next season he'll be fine. Maybe if Dye Thome or Konerko get traded this season we can have BA starting in center and Swish to first or the OF. Although I know plenty of people who will condemn this team on the spot saying something like. "If BA is starting in centerfield this team will be lucky to get 3rd place"

That would be our best defensive alignment, and Brian is swinging a much better bat this year. Unfortunately, some people will forever hate him, no matter what he does at this level (I'm not saying he's done anything yet - don't jump on me)

voodoochile
05-17-2008, 02:06 PM
That would be our best defensive alignment, and Brian is swinging a much better bat this year. Unfortunately, some people will forever hate him, no matter what he does at this level (I'm not saying he's done anything yet - don't jump on me)

I don't think that's true. I don't see anyone saying BA sucks simply because he is BA or because it took him a bit longer than most to get focused and make an effort. If he could put up an .800 OPS there would be very few Sox fans who would want him sitting on the bench every day.

gobears1987
05-17-2008, 02:11 PM
I have never been a fan of BA, but he should eventually be our starting CF. Ozzie sent him a good message last year and BA matured once he got the message. Swisher is probably our future 1st baseman once PK moves to DH.

munchman33
05-17-2008, 02:19 PM
Swish is locked up for 4 more years I believe, and he's shown over his career to be a plus hitter. I think as soon as he's moved to left or first next season he'll be fine. Maybe if Dye Thome or Konerko get traded this season we can have BA starting in center and Swish to first or the OF. Although I know plenty of people who will condemn this team on the spot saying something like. "If BA is starting in centerfield this team will be lucky to get 3rd place"

At the moment, Swish is a career .248 hitter who's topped 30 homers a grand total of once. The ability to walk doesn't magically make Swisher a plus hitter. Could he be? Sure. But he hasn't proven that at all. All he's proven is he has a plus eye. He's not a plus hitter yet. He hasn't even had 150 hits in a season yet! How can you call him a plus "hitter"?

I do think a move out of center would benefit the team, though I'm not sure it will have an effect on Swisher's stick. .260/.350/.450 is about what should be expected. Not bad, but certainly not plus.

DumpJerry
05-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Was anyone listening to the 670 post game show when the caller (me) asked if trading Gio Gonzalez and de los Santos for Swish was a bad idea and that we should have just put the money for Rowand up?
Money was not the reason why Rowand wasn't signed. The two reasons were:
1. Number of years. He wanted more than the Sox were going to offer.
2. The Sox did not want him, only a distinct group of Sox fans wanted him. Unfortunately for those fans, Kenny Williams was not a member.

The Sox asked how many years he was seeking and then moved on to other players. They did not have any intentions of signing him.

WhiteSox5187
05-17-2008, 03:14 PM
None of the guys we gave up for Swish are really doing anything in the minors, so it wasn't a total loss. The one arguement you could make is had we kept those guys maybe MAYBE we might have been able to offer them to get a guy like Roberts...but right now nobody in that trade is really doing a whole lot of anything.

dij22
06-10-2008, 04:06 AM
At the moment, Swish is a career .248 hitter who's topped 30 homers a grand total of once. The ability to walk doesn't magically make Swisher a plus hitter. Could he be? Sure. But he hasn't proven that at all. All he's proven is he has a plus eye. He's not a plus hitter yet. He hasn't even had 150 hits in a season yet! How can you call him a plus "hitter"?

I do think a move out of center would benefit the team, though I'm not sure it will have an effect on Swisher's stick. .260/.350/.450 is about what should be expected. Not bad, but certainly not plus.

The ability to walk does make Swisher a plus hitter. You see, a walk gets you on base. And when you get on base you score runs. And as for your retarded analysis that 150 hits = plus hitter, you must think Juan Pierre is, like, ****ing Babe Ruth for getting 200 hits each year.

Swisher has had an OPS+ of higher than 125 in each of his two full seasons in the majors, meaning he has been 25% better than a league average player. How does 25% better not equal "plus"?
Mod Edit: One week for your choice of the word "retarded."

Frater Perdurabo
06-10-2008, 06:54 AM
dij22, here's some friendly advice: Your use of adjectives will not endear you to the mods around here.

jabrch
06-10-2008, 09:13 AM
The ability to walk does make Swisher a plus hitter.

Not if he can't hit.

You don't walk if you can't hit. Look what happened to Swish between late April and June 1. Walking is a benefit that is afforded to good hitters who are patient. It is not something bad hitters can do because a pitcher won't be out of the strike zone much if he has no fear of a hitter.

What makes Swish a + hitter is not walks. It is surely not OPS+. Those are nothing more than outputs. What makes him a + hitter is the fact that he can hit the ball to all fields, with power, from both sides of the plate. When he is doing that, then the result will be good numbers. But he won't walk and he won't produce any significant numbers if he is not hitting the ball.

you must think Juan Pierre is, like, ****ing Babe Ruth for getting 200 hits each year

This again? Some people are so lost in an ethos around statistics that they fail to understand basic principles of baseball - then they go to great lengths to prove that.

Nobody is comparing Pierre to Babe Ruth. You know better than that. At least you should.

Ziggy S
06-10-2008, 09:30 AM
Yeah, if Brian Nikola Anderson was known as BNA instead of simply BA around these parts, Munch would probably like him too...

Like Nikolai Volkoff? BA ain't no Iron Sheik.

Ziggy S
06-10-2008, 09:31 AM
I have never been a fan of BA, but he should eventually be our starting CF. Ozzie sent him a good message last year and BA matured once he got the message. Swisher is probably our future 1st baseman once PK moves to DH.

You've got your future DH confused. It's probably going to be Dye.

Tragg
06-10-2008, 10:32 AM
I do think a move out of center would benefit the team, though I'm not sure it will have an effect on Swisher's stick. .260/.350/.450 is about what should be expected. Not bad, but certainly not plus.
It wasn't my favorite trade in the world but he's a good player who can hit and get on base. His defense isn't terrible either. Heck his OBP is still one of the tops on this team right now...about as good as Dye's, who's having a good year.
BA certainly could play center and I think he'd hit well enough, if give the ABs. He looks a lot better at the plate this year as it is. But, that's probably for next year...OF is full right now.

Tragg
06-10-2008, 10:35 AM
What makes Swish a + hitter is not walks. It is surely not OPS+. Those are nothing more than outputs. What makes him a + hitter is the fact that he can hit the ball to all fields, with power, from both sides of the plate. When he is doing that, then the result will be good numbers. But he won't walk and he won't produce any significant numbers if he is not hitting the ball.


That's true, but some hitters who swing as well as Swisher simply make outs instead of taking walks. Swisher takes his walks and it's those walks that push him up to above average, while others who hit hitters' pitches just as well, flail away on pitches they should be taking.

Eddo144
06-10-2008, 10:49 AM
Not if he can't hit.

You don't walk if you can't hit. Look what happened to Swish between late April and June 1. Walking is a benefit that is afforded to good hitters who are patient. It is not something bad hitters can do because a pitcher won't be out of the strike zone much if he has no fear of a hitter.

What makes Swish a + hitter is not walks. It is surely not OPS+. Those are nothing more than outputs. What makes him a + hitter is the fact that he can hit the ball to all fields, with power, from both sides of the plate. When he is doing that, then the result will be good numbers. But he won't walk and he won't produce any significant numbers if he is not hitting the ball.
Well put, jabrch. Walks are good. However, the way to get more walks is to be a good hitter. Drawing a lot of walks usually shows that you're a good hitter. Walks alone don't make you a good hitter. Walks, though, are not a bad thing just because they're not hits (as some seem to imply when they trash Swisher). (One thing I would add is that you can still use your good batting eye to draw walks and get on base if you're in a slump, but you just won't draw as many because pitchers aren't afraid to challenge you.)

I've always felt that OBP would be a more effective measure if it showed the inverse: out percentage. Then you could show that someone like 2007 Juan Pierre and his .669 out percentage is inferior to 2007 Nick Swisher and his .619 out percentage because he makes outs 5% more of the time. And 5% might not sound like much, but it's the difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter.

Nobody is comparing Pierre to Babe Ruth. You know better than that. At least you should.
Again, well put. The "Juan Pierre gets 200+ hits, you must think he's the best ever" argument is a strawman raised by overzealous members of the pro-SABR crowd (of which I am a (non-overzealous) member). Yes, Pierre is overrated because of his sheer number of hits (in tons of AB) and speed, but no one, not even Joe Morgan, actually says he's comparable to all-time greats.

jabrch
06-10-2008, 11:32 AM
Again, well put. The "Juan Pierre gets 200+ hits, you must think he's the best ever" argument is a strawman raised by overzealous members of the pro-SABR crowd (of which I am a (non-overzealous) member). Yes, Pierre is overrated because of his sheer number of hits (in tons of AB) and speed, but no one, not even Joe Morgan, actually says he's comparable to all-time greats.

I'll take it one step further...Juan Pierre, while not a high OBP guy for a leadoff hitter, still is hitting .280/.350 and is a .300/.350 hitter on his career. One thing about him is that he isn't a guy who slumps much and he isn't a guy who is dominated by either great pitchers or by LHP. In fact, his career splits are nearly even between LHP and RHP (.304/.349 vs .299/.347) and this year he is hitting a sick .426/.481 against LHP (small sample size likely invalidates that)

Juan Pierre is not the greatest leadoff hitter ever. Nobody is arguing that point. However Juan Pierre is an effective leadoff hitter because he is good at hitting, and his speed is effective at the top of the order. Sure - I'd rather have Ellsbury, Ichiro or Roberts over him. Same with Sizemore. I'm sure there are more. But at the same time, a guy who can hit .280/.350 and steal 50+ bases is valuable - regardless of what the Sabermetric Ethos says.

Eddo144
06-10-2008, 11:53 AM
I'll take it one step further...Juan Pierre, while not a high OBP guy for a leadoff hitter, still is hitting .280/.350 and is a .300/.350 hitter on his career. One thing about him is that he isn't a guy who slumps much and he isn't a guy who is dominated by either great pitchers or by LHP. In fact, his career splits are nearly even between LHP and RHP (.304/.349 vs .299/.347) and this year he is hitting a sick .426/.481 against LHP (small sample size likely invalidates that)

Juan Pierre is not the greatest leadoff hitter ever. Nobody is arguing that point. However Juan Pierre is an effective leadoff hitter because he is good at hitting, and his speed is effective at the top of the order. Sure - I'd rather have Ellsbury, Ichiro or Roberts over him. Same with Sizemore. I'm sure there are more. But at the same time, a guy who can hit .280/.350 and steal 50+ bases is valuable - regardless of what the Sabermetric Ethos says.
Again, I agree. I was surprised at how high Pierre's OBPs have been when I checked baseball-reference when making my post.

That's the thing: Pierre has become a whipping boy for the sabermetric crowd because he was so overrated that you had writers like Plaschke (sp?) heaping so much praise on him because he "plays the game the right way" or similar nonsense.

There are two important, legitimate knocks on Pierre. He hits for virtually no power (career IsoP*: .071), unlike your examples of Ellsbury (.134), Ichiro (.103), Roberts (.140), and Sizemore (.206). He also is not a very good defensive OF, especially in CF.

*(IsoP is Isolated Power, calculated by subtracting BA from SLG. Essentially, it measures a player's extra bases per at-bat, which is a useful way to determine his raw power.)

TomBradley72
06-10-2008, 12:36 PM
In the off season, I would have preferred giving up the 5th year to Rowand vs. giving up three prospects that could either provide us depth or be used as trade bait for another purpose. Worst case scenario, Rowand moves over to LF in year 5 if he's deteriorating physically, etc.

With that said....if Swisher returns to his career averages...I'm OK with the trade. Eventually we need to get him to 1st base or LF.

johnr1note
06-10-2008, 05:16 PM
In the off season, I would have preferred giving up the 5th year to Rowand vs. giving up three prospects that could either provide us depth or be used as trade bait for another purpose. Worst case scenario, Rowand moves over to LF in year 5 if he's deteriorating physically, etc.

With that said....if Swisher returns to his career averages...I'm OK with the trade. Eventually we need to get him to 1st base or LF.

And this is easily done in the not too distant future -- I don't think Thome will last beyond this season, and Dye moves to DH, with Swisher taking over in LF, Quenton to RF, and a new center fielder, be it BA or whoever else KW can pull out of his magic bag.