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View Full Version : Is Javy our new ACE?


LoveYourSuit
05-16-2008, 02:07 PM
Man he has been nails this year. With that sloppy 1st inning with the way the defense let him down, he did not let that crap hold him back and gave us another awesome effort. He did not pick up the win but man his stuff will win him at least 16-17 ball games this season.

What do you guys think?

Sockinchisox
05-16-2008, 02:08 PM
Yes.

soxfan13
05-16-2008, 02:10 PM
Who was the old ace?

LoveYourSuit
05-16-2008, 02:11 PM
Who was the old ace?


The guy who started opening day.

sox1970
05-16-2008, 02:15 PM
If there was one game to win, Javy would be the guy I'd hand the ball to.

People need to accept Buehrle for who he is--an innings eater, that will give up a lot of hits in some of his starts, but will also give you a quality start about 60% of the time.

BadBobbyJenks
05-16-2008, 02:33 PM
Did anyone not think this coming into this season?
He proved he is the ace last season in my opinion.

LoveYourSuit
05-16-2008, 02:41 PM
Did anyone not think this coming into this season?
He proved he is the ace last season in my opinion.

Well, there are still people out there who feel they owe Buehrle their hearts because of how long hie has been here.

I think next season Buehrle will end up being #3. Danks or Floyd will slide to #2, you will see.

alohafri
05-16-2008, 02:47 PM
Yes.

CHIsoxNation
05-16-2008, 02:48 PM
Well, there are still people out there who feel they owe Buehrle their hearts because of how long hie has been here.

I think next season Buehrle will end up being #3. Danks or Floyd will slide to #2, you will see.

I really don't think it matters all that much where they are in the rotation. It all changes after the first few weeks anyway.

But I'd say Javy has been our best pitcher over the past 2 years so I'd definitely give him the 'Ace' label on our staff.

spiffie
05-16-2008, 02:48 PM
If I need to win a regular season game in June against the Mariners, I go with Javy.

Until I see him perform under pressure in a big spotlight situation I can't say I'd want him in a game 7 of a postseason series. Thus far when he's been on teams in contention he was below average for the Yankees in 2004, got destroyed in the playoffs, including game 7 of the ALCS, he was mediocre for the D-Backs in 2005 when they were in the hunt (on August 1 they were 1 game out. Javy proceeded to put up an ERA of 7+ in August. In September, when they were 7 games back, he put up an ERA around 2.50.), for us in 2006 when we were in a huge fight for the division he was terrible (he put up ERA's of 7.50 and 6.82 in June and July. When he got good in August we were 7.5 out of the division lead. Against our main division rivals he put up a 7.50 against DET and a 6.83 against MIN).

Javier Vazquez has never pitched well when a team really has the pressure on. The closest you can say is 2006 in August, but the team was in such freefall at that point it is hard to judge much.

So until I see that he has the heart and psyche for a huge game, I'll stick with Buehrle, even if his stuff isn't as good and he's prone to a crappy game now and again.

TDog
05-16-2008, 02:48 PM
The Sox pitching staff could be emerging as one of those teams where five pitchers could have the role of ace at different points in the season. I am expecting Buehrle to return to form. Contreras has been tough this year. Danks and Floyd look like they are on the verge of fulfilling the promise that made them first-round draft picks. Vazquez certainly has been the most consistent starter for the Sox this year and he shows signs of having a great season.

Unfortunately, the Sox starters rarely pitch complete games. When Jack McDowell was the true ace of the Sox staff, he threw complete games. It isn't just arbitrary adherence to pitch count that is getting starters pulled. They are actually losing effectiveness late in games. (Many good pitchers do.) But Vazquez and some bullpen help will do for now.

October26
05-16-2008, 02:53 PM
Well, there are still people out there who feel they owe Buehrle their hearts because of how long hie has been here.

I think next season Buehrle will end up being #3. Danks or Floyd will slide to #2, you will see.

Okay, I am one of those Buehrle lovers whose heart breaks every time I see Buehrle pitch this year. I know it is stupid and Buehrle is not the ace, but I am what I am - a loyal person and a huge Buehrle fan. There is just something so endearing about him and he has been in a Sox uniform for a long time.

Having said all this and putting my heart aside, Javy is the ace, without a doubt. And Danks and Floyd? The're both pretty good too. :tongue: I can handle Buehrle being a #3 or #4. And let me not forget about El Seņor Jose Contreras. He's been pretty good in a Sox uniform as well. I am a Sox fan and want them to just win - regardless of who is on the mound.

It's Dankerific
05-16-2008, 02:55 PM
They all pitch every 5th day.

When we are making out the playoff rotation, then it matters =)

spiffie
05-16-2008, 02:57 PM
The Sox pitching staff could be emerging as one of those teams where five pitchers could have the role of ace at different points in the season. I am expecting Buehrle to return to form. Contreras has been tough this year. Danks and Floyd look like they are on the verge of fulfilling the promise that made them first-round draft picks. Vazquez certainly has been the most consistent starter for the Sox this year and he shows signs of having a great season.

Unfortunately, the Sox starters rarely pitch complete games. When Jack McDowell was the true ace of the Sox staff, he threw complete games. It isn't just arbitrary adherence to pitch count that is getting starters pulled. They are actually losing effectiveness late in games. (Many good pitchers do.) But Vazquez and some bullpen help will do for now.
Between 1991-1996 McDowell threw 57 complete games. At that point he was 30 years old. He would never throw more than 76 innings in a season again, and was out of baseball a little over 2 seasons later.

I think as lineups get more and more brutal from top to bottom the age of the complete game as a regular occurrence is forced to end. Just look at the 1991 Twins, the World Series champs. Their entire infield combined for 35 HR. That's a good year for our current 1B. There's just no easy outs, or guys you can relax on and know the worst that Mike Pagliarulo is going to do is slap a single up the middle on you.

Vernam
05-16-2008, 03:05 PM
Did anyone not think this coming into this season? He proved he is the ace last season in my opinion.Yes, IMO last year he'd have deserved Cy Young consideration if we'd made the playoffs. That low, backup fastball of his on the outside corner to righty hitters has become one of the league's truly nasty pitches.

Vernam

doublem23
05-16-2008, 03:06 PM
They all pitch every 5th day.

When we are making out the playoff rotation, then it matters =)

Agreed, these tags in the rotation really don't mean anything until Ozzie needs to reorganize the rotation for the post-season. If that were happening right now, I would probably have Javy pitch the first game, since he gives us an excellent chance to win, but he wouldn't be subjected to any added pressure cooker situations, which does not seem to be his forte.

Plus, as usual, let's remember that it's the 2nd week of May and we've only played a quarter of the season... There's a lot of baseball left to be played.

ondafarm
05-16-2008, 03:09 PM
I'd almost say right now the Sox have four aces and a joker, which isn't a bad hand to have in poker, but will it win the ALCD is what I want to know.

oeo
05-16-2008, 03:10 PM
If there was one game to win, Javy would be the guy I'd hand the ball to.

People need to accept Buehrle for who he is--an innings eater, that will give up a lot of hits in some of his starts, but will also give you a quality start about 60% of the time.

GMAB.

He's more than an 'innings eater.' This year he's been that, but that's the exception. Vazquez finished up one of his best seasons last year...who was better?

Are you going to constantly make these inane comments about every guy on the roster?

btrain929
05-16-2008, 03:13 PM
GMAB.

He's more than an 'innings eater.' This year he's been that, but that's the exception. Vazquez finished up one of his best seasons last year...who was better?

Are you going to constantly make these inane comments about every guy on the roster?

Agreed. Garland and Carlos Silva are innings eaters.

Buehrle >>> Garland and/or Silva.

doublem23
05-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Rather than whine and complain about Mark's slow start, can we be happy that the Sox pitching is incredible and they're able to withstand Mark's performance thus far? Not many teams have the luxury of remaining competitive if their #1 starter going into the season hits a bump in the road this early. This is especially nice since the majority of the brainiac armchair GMs around here felt that the Sox would struggle to compete because of our thin starting pitching staff... In fact, the only reason we're still right with the Twins and Indians for the division lead is because the pitching staff has been so incredible.

LITTLE NELL
05-16-2008, 03:22 PM
Agreed, these tags in the rotation really don't mean anything until Ozzie needs to reorganize the rotation for the post-season. If that were happening right now, I would probably have Javy pitch the first game, since he gives us an excellent chance to win, but he wouldn't be subjected to any added pressure cooker situations, which does not seem to be his forte.

Plus, as usual, let's remember that it's the 2nd week of May and we've only played a quarter of the season... There's a lot of baseball left to be played.
I agree, teams now juggle their staffs were its not 1-2-3-4-5. In the old days the aces were always facing each other. Us old guys will never forget Pierce Vs. Ford, Drysdale vs Marichal or Gibson Vs. Jenkins.

TDog
05-16-2008, 03:37 PM
...
I think as lineups get more and more brutal from top to bottom the age of the complete game as a regular occurence [sic] is forced to end. ...

If that's true, the days of pitching aces is forced to end.

itsnotrequired
05-16-2008, 03:42 PM
Rather than whine and complain about Mark's slow start, can we be happy that the Sox pitching is incredible and they're able to withstand Mark's performance thus far? Not many teams have the luxury of remaining competitive if their #1 starter going into the season hits a bump in the road this early. This is especially nice since the majority of the brainiac armchair GMs around here felt that the Sox would struggle to compete because of our thin starting pitching staff... In fact, the only reason we're still right with the Twins and Indians for the division lead is because the pitching staff has been so incredible.

Whining is part of what being a Sox fan is all about!

doublem23
05-16-2008, 03:43 PM
Whining is part of what being a Sox fan is all about!

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/4/4a/Exploding_head123.jpg

Dan Mega
05-16-2008, 03:48 PM
Rather than whine and complain about Mark's slow start, can we be happy that the Sox pitching is incredible and they're able to withstand Mark's performance thus far?

I keep hearing this. Is pointing out the fact that Mark hasn't pitched well since almost the middle of last year "whining"? Does raising a simple question as to whether he is hurt being an "armchair GM brainiac", or is it simply pointing out facts? Not all of us like to pretend that 2007 didn't happen you know.

Sure the rest of the rotation is doing great right now. I for one would like 5/5 of the starters to do well, not just 4/5. 5/5 increases the chances of winning.

ShoelessJoeS
05-16-2008, 04:03 PM
I was wondering this same thing last night...

If there was one game we needed to win, I would hope that Javy is on the mound.

sox1970
05-16-2008, 04:14 PM
GMAB.

He's more than an 'innings eater.' This year he's been that, but that's the exception. Vazquez finished up one of his best seasons last year...who was better?

Are you going to constantly make these inane comments about every guy on the roster?

I stated facts. He puts in a ton of innings, and he gets about 20 quality starts a year. He also has about 10 or so starts where he gives up a lot of hits. Sorry you take this as bashing Buehrle, but again, they're just facts.

01--32 starts, 20 quality starts, 221 innings, 188 hits
02--34 starts, 23 quality starts, 239 innings, 236 hits
03--35 starts, 24 quality starts, 230 innings, 250 hits
04--35 starts, 23 quality starts, 245 innings, 257 hits
05--33 starts, 20 quality starts, 236 innings, 240 hits
06--32 starts, 16 quality starts, 204 innings, 247 hits
07--30 starts, 20 quality starts, 201 innings, 208 hits

2001-2004: He had 66.2% quality starts in 136 games
2005-2008: He's down to 58.3% quality starts in 103 games

He's dropped off the last few years. The numbers prove it.

It doesn't mean he's not valuable. It doesn't mean I don't want him here. If anything, the numbers just show that he's better off when he pitches more.

fquaye149
05-16-2008, 04:15 PM
I keep hearing this. Is pointing out the fact that Mark hasn't pitched well since almost the middle of last year "whining"? Does raising a simple question as to whether he is hurt being an "armchair GM brainiac", or is it simply pointing out facts? Not all of us like to pretend that 2007 didn't happen you know.

Sure the rest of the rotation is doing great right now. I for one would like 5/5 of the starters to do well, not just 4/5. 5/5 increases the chances of winning.

trust me: you're no brainiac

Dan Mega
05-16-2008, 05:45 PM
trust me: you're no brainiac

Me and my room temp IQ are offended!

fquaye149
05-16-2008, 05:55 PM
Me and my room temp IQ are offended!

Room Temperature? You wish. Maybe celcius.

redsand22
05-16-2008, 06:05 PM
If I need to win a regular season game in June against the Mariners, I go with Javy.

Until I see him perform under pressure in a big spotlight situation I can't say I'd want him in a game 7 of a postseason series. Thus far when he's been on teams in contention he was below average for the Yankees in 2004, got destroyed in the playoffs, including game 7 of the ALCS, he was mediocre for the D-Backs in 2005 when they were in the hunt (on August 1 they were 1 game out. Javy proceeded to put up an ERA of 7+ in August. In September, when they were 7 games back, he put up an ERA around 2.50.), for us in 2006 when we were in a huge fight for the division he was terrible (he put up ERA's of 7.50 and 6.82 in June and July. When he got good in August we were 7.5 out of the division lead. Against our main division rivals he put up a 7.50 against DET and a 6.83 against MIN).

Javier Vazquez has never pitched well when a team really has the pressure on. The closest you can say is 2006 in August, but the team was in such freefall at that point it is hard to judge much.

So until I see that he has the heart and psyche for a huge game, I'll stick with Buehrle, even if his stuff isn't as good and he's prone to a crappy game now and again.

Well said, I agree with you completely.

oeo
05-16-2008, 06:08 PM
I stated facts. He puts in a ton of innings, and he gets about 20 quality starts a year. He also has about 10 or so starts where he gives up a lot of hits. Sorry you take this as bashing Buehrle, but again, they're just facts.

01--32 starts, 20 quality starts, 221 innings, 188 hits
02--34 starts, 23 quality starts, 239 innings, 236 hits
03--35 starts, 24 quality starts, 230 innings, 250 hits
04--35 starts, 23 quality starts, 245 innings, 257 hits
05--33 starts, 20 quality starts, 236 innings, 240 hits
06--32 starts, 16 quality starts, 204 innings, 247 hits
07--30 starts, 20 quality starts, 201 innings, 208 hits

2001-2004: He had 66.2% quality starts in 136 games
2005-2008: He's down to 58.3% quality starts in 103 games

He's dropped off the last few years. The numbers prove it.

It doesn't mean he's not valuable. It doesn't mean I don't want him here. If anything, the numbers just show that he's better off when he pitches more.

Who cares how many hits he gives up? It's a game of runs. What about his career just screams 'innings eater?' Jon Garland was an innings eater, Mark Buehrle is much better than that. Then your other argument includes the worst year of his career and a rocky start to 2008. It'll be interesting when you disappear around July when all your "facts" suddenly don't make sense anymore.

I shouldn't even try...you're right sox1970, you always are.

whitesoxfan
05-16-2008, 06:22 PM
Boy, this sure is breaking news.

He's been our ace for quite some time now.

sox1970
05-16-2008, 06:23 PM
Who cares how many hits he gives up? It's a game of runs. What about his career just screams 'innings eater?' Jon Garland was an innings eater, Mark Buehrle is much better than that. Then your other argument includes the worst year of his career and a rocky start to 2008. It'll be interesting when you disappear around July when all your "facts" suddenly don't make sense anymore.

I shouldn't even try...you're right sox1970, you always are.

:happyguy:

Thanks!

To tell you the truth, I don't look at it as having an argument about Buehrle. I accept him for what he is--a very good pitcher, but not a true ace. Hey, I have one Sox jersey, and it has "BUEHRLE" on the back.

Have a great weekend!

spongyfungy
05-16-2008, 08:59 PM
One neat stat from last night. Most strikeouts since Sep 07 to now in the majors.

However there are three starters with better ERAs than him on the team. THREE

Vernam
05-16-2008, 11:26 PM
Me and my room temp IQ are offended!Technically, that should be "My room temp IQ and I."




:redneck


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Vernam

MISoxfan
05-17-2008, 03:58 AM
If I need to win a regular season game in June against the Mariners, I go with Javy.

Until I see him perform under pressure in a big spotlight situation I can't say I'd want him in a game 7 of a postseason series. Thus far when he's been on teams in contention he was below average for the Yankees in 2004, got destroyed in the playoffs, including game 7 of the ALCS, he was mediocre for the D-Backs in 2005 when they were in the hunt (on August 1 they were 1 game out. Javy proceeded to put up an ERA of 7+ in August. In September, when they were 7 games back, he put up an ERA around 2.50.), for us in 2006 when we were in a huge fight for the division he was terrible (he put up ERA's of 7.50 and 6.82 in June and July. When he got good in August we were 7.5 out of the division lead. Against our main division rivals he put up a 7.50 against DET and a 6.83 against MIN).

Javier Vazquez has never pitched well when a team really has the pressure on. The closest you can say is 2006 in August, but the team was in such freefall at that point it is hard to judge much.

So until I see that he has the heart and psyche for a huge game, I'll stick with Buehrle, even if his stuff isn't as good and he's prone to a crappy game now and again.

A huge fight for the division in June? If you're going to use that against him you might as well say he's doing great in this huge fight for the division in May.

slavko
05-17-2008, 04:46 PM
Who cares how many hits he gives up? It's a game of runs. What about his career just screams 'innings eater?' Jon Garland was an innings eater, Mark Buehrle is much better than that. Then your other argument includes the worst year of his career and a rocky start to 2008. It'll be interesting when you disappear around July when all your "facts" suddenly don't make sense anymore.

I shouldn't even try...you're right sox1970, you always are.

He's certainly capable of turning it around and becoming his old self. He has been mediocre for half a season a couple times and returned to form. Once all it took was starting his windup at the side of the rubber. What will it be this time? If he played on the North Side, sports stores would be selling pieces of the space heater he trashed. He's our Mark.

JorgeFabregas
05-17-2008, 05:19 PM
One neat stat from last night. Most strikeouts since Sep 08 to now in the majors.

However there are three starters with better ERAs than him on the team. THREE
Only Danks has a chance to end the season that way, in my opinion.

TheVulture
05-17-2008, 05:24 PM
Room Temperature? You wish. Maybe celcius.
That's celsius, Einstein.

A.BunkerHereLord
05-17-2008, 05:27 PM
John Danks is the ace unless Contreras overtakes him.

Jjav829
05-17-2008, 05:29 PM
Does it really matter? He's pitching very well. If he keeps it up, and Buehrle gets back to being Buehrle, we'll have two front-of-the-rotation type of starters. It doesn't really matter which one is #1 or #2 except in the playoffs, should we be lucky/good enough to get there.