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DaveIsHere
05-14-2008, 12:41 PM
An interesting article in SI. It is not just the Sox that are struggling.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/05/13/verducci.offensedown/index.html

RockyMtnSoxFan
05-14-2008, 06:30 PM
Interesting article. I don't think people here like to hear this, but the NL isn't the easy target that it has been in years past. I think the fact that guys like Livan Hernandez and Sidney Ponson can be successful in the AL speaks volumes. Obviously, the AL won't remain this weak all year, but even so, the NL has become stronger. I think more of the elite pitchers are in the NL, which isn't unusual, but there are more good hitters there too. At shortstop, most of the good players are in the NL. Pujols is probably the best overall hitter in the majors, and Santana or Webb is the best pitcher. However, I think there are probably more powerhouse teams and crappy teams in the AL. The gap between the good teams and bad teams is larger.

I think the upcoming interleague games will be interesting.

fquaye149
05-14-2008, 06:38 PM
To be fair, the AL has incredible pitching.

Yeah, the NL has some incredible aces--Santana, Peavy, Webb, and to a lesser extent Zambrano--but beyond that, rotations seem to run a lot more shallow than in the AL

getonbckthr
05-14-2008, 06:44 PM
Interesting article. I don't think people here like to hear this, but the NL isn't the easy target that it has been in years past. I think the fact that guys like Livan Hernandez and Sidney Ponson can be successful in the AL speaks volumes. Obviously, the AL won't remain this weak all year, but even so, the NL has become stronger. I think more of the elite pitchers are in the NL, which isn't unusual, but there are more good hitters there too. At shortstop, most of the good players are in the NL. Pujols is probably the best overall hitter in the majors, and Santana or Webb is the best pitcher. However, I think there are probably more powerhouse teams and crappy teams in the AL. The gap between the good teams and bad teams is larger.

I think the upcoming interleague games will be interesting.
I'm looking more at the fact: Vazquez, Halladay, Burnett, Shields, Garza, Kazmir, Sonanstine, Beckett, Matzusaka, Sabathia, Carmona, Byrd, Livan (8 straight 10+ wins 200+ INN seasons,) Weaver, Bedard, King Felix and Blanton. Then the emergence of Floyd, Danks, Marcum, McGowan, Litsch, Edwin JAckson, Lster, Cliff Lee, Grienke, Santana, Saunders, Eveland and Smith and you realize the American League is extremely pitching heavy.

Scottiehaswheels
05-14-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm looking more at the fact: Vazquez, Halladay, Burnett, Shields, Garza, Kazmir, Sonanstine, Beckett, Matzusaka, Sabathia, Carmona, Byrd, Livan (8 straight 10+ wins 200+ INN seasons,) Weaver, Bedard, King Felix and Blanton. Then the emergence of Floyd, Danks, Marcum, McGowan, Litsch, Edwin JAckson, Lster, Cliff Lee, Grienke, Santana, Saunders, Eveland and Smith and you realize the American League is extremely pitching heavy.Seems like a chicken vs. egg question lately. Are these young pitchers "emerging" because the hitting league wide has been so poor?

getonbckthr
05-14-2008, 07:12 PM
Seems like a chicken vs. egg question lately. Are these young pitchers "emerging" because the hitting league wide has been so poor?
Thats up for discussion. I personally am siding with the pitching being this good.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 07:15 PM
Thats up for discussion. I personally am siding with the pitching being this good.

Me too.

NL hitters are feasting on crappy NL pitching.

Great AL pitchers are shutting down great AL hitters.

getonbckthr
05-14-2008, 07:17 PM
Me too.

NL hitters are feasting on crappy NL pitching.

Great AL pitchers are shutting down great AL hitters.
The old saying Good pitching always beats good hitting, but bad pitching is a sacrificial lamb.

It's Dankerific
05-14-2008, 07:19 PM
Steve Phillips on ESPN (former mets GM) was saying he's thinking its the effect of the decline in PED (stigma from the mitchell report: scared straight). HR across the league are down so much that if the trend continues, we could see 1000 less HR hit this year than last. Thats crazy.

When you look at the white sox slide since mid 2006, it makes me worry (whether irrationally or not) that our team might not have been as clean as I have always thought/hoped.

DSpivack
05-14-2008, 07:35 PM
Steve Phillips on ESPN (former mets GM) was saying he's thinking its the effect of the decline in PED (stigma from the mitchell report: scared straight). HR across the league are down so much that if the trend continues, we could see 1000 less HR hit this year than last. Thats crazy.

When you look at the white sox slide since mid 2006, it makes me worry (whether irrationally or not) that our team might not have been as clean as I have always thought/hoped.

I don't normally trust or believe anything Steve Philips says, but he may be right there.

fusillirob1983
05-14-2008, 10:42 PM
Steve Phillips on ESPN (former mets GM) was saying he's thinking its the effect of the decline in PED (stigma from the mitchell report: scared straight). HR across the league are down so much that if the trend continues, we could see 1000 less HR hit this year than last. Thats crazy.

When you look at the white sox slide since mid 2006, it makes me worry (whether irrationally or not) that our team might not have been as clean as I have always thought/hoped.

Dye was on the DL for about a month, same for Thome. Crede was out for 4 months. Their replacements didn't hit many homers. I'm not sure if PEDs are related to poor batting averages, but there hasn't been a large decrease in home runs for the Sox when you consider injuries to a few of our power sources.

DumpJerry
05-14-2008, 11:21 PM
Thats up for discussion. I personally am siding with the pitching being this good.
I'm with you on this one.

JB98
05-15-2008, 12:40 AM
Look at some of the final scores from around the AL tonight:

Indians 2, A's 0
Royals 2, Tigers 0
Yankees 2, Devil Rays 1
Mariners 4, Rangers 3
Sox 6, Angels 1
Orioles 6, Red Sox 3

The highest-scoring game in the league tonight was Toronto's 6-5 victory over the Twinkees. Cleveland starting pitchers are working on a streak of 43 consecutive scoreless innings. :o:

There is definitely some good pitching around the league.

TDog
05-15-2008, 02:08 AM
... The highest-scoring game in the league tonight was Toronto's 6-5 victory over the Twinkees. Cleveland starting pitchers are working on a streak of 43 consecutive scoreless innings. :o:

There is definitely some good pitching around the league.

And amazingly, none of those 43 scoreless innings came at the expense of the White Sox.

The White Sox tonight scored as many runs tonight as any other team in the American League. People are whining about the Sox not being able to score. The Tigers now are 16 consecutive innings without scoring, and they have been on such streaks at least a couple of more times this year. The A's scoreless streak is longer. The White Sox leadoff hitter is only hitting .229 after tonight, but Curtis Granderson, the Tigers leadoff hitter is only hitting .233.

Pitching is the name of the game. But every time I pop into a game thread and every time a White Sox player doesn't come though, I read how they suck.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 06:04 AM
The fact that there is so much good pitching in the AL supports the argument that the Sox should ALSO be able to manufacture runs.

There is nothing wrong with the homer. But good pitchers don't give up a lot of walks and don't give up a lot of homers with men on base. Therefore, it is not wise to rely only on walks and the long ball when you have to face so many good pitchers.

Against good pitchers, you need to be able to scratch out a few runs. That's why some of us want to see more balance to the Sox offense.

soxfanatlanta
05-15-2008, 07:25 AM
Since runs scored are down, are the average game durations down as well?

DSpivack
05-15-2008, 08:30 AM
Somehow, the Sox are 6th in runs scored/game in the AL at 4.35 runs/game (although I wonder what their average is in the last two or three weeks). They are fifth in runs allowed/game at 4.03.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2008.shtml

fquaye149
05-15-2008, 08:39 AM
Since runs scored are down, are the average game durations down as well?



if the amount of runners the Sox leave on base are any indication, probably not! :(

RockyMtnSoxFan
05-15-2008, 11:07 AM
I'm looking more at the fact: Vazquez, Halladay, Burnett, Shields, Garza, Kazmir, Sonanstine, Beckett, Matzusaka, Sabathia, Carmona, Byrd, Livan (8 straight 10+ wins 200+ INN seasons,) Weaver, Bedard, King Felix and Blanton. Then the emergence of Floyd, Danks, Marcum, McGowan, Litsch, Edwin JAckson, Lster, Cliff Lee, Grienke, Santana, Saunders, Eveland and Smith and you realize the American League is extremely pitching heavy.

:?:

Yes, there are some good pitchers on this list. But to say that there aren't good pitchers in the NL is just hiding from reality. It would be easy to come up with a list just as impressive of pitchers in the NL.

What I don't understand is this attitude on WSI that the AL is obviously superior no matter what. If the AL is scoring more runs, it's because they have better hitters. If they're scoring fewer runs, it's because they have better pitchers also. There's no logic behind the argument.

Back to the scoring issue, as the SI article pointed out there are fewer fly balls, and fewer of those are going for extra base hits. (Not that Uribe and lots of other Sox aren't swinging for the fences every time, though.) It seems to me that this is at least partly related to aging sluggers. If you look at a lot of the guys that have typically hit lots of home runs, they are getting older and less effective. Thome is a prime example: he's just not the hitter he used to be. Frank is also slowing down some. Sheffield, Ortiz, Guerrero, Hafner (though he's not very old), Dye, Giambi, Sexson .... If you look at some of the top home run hitters from a couple of years ago, a lot of them are either getting old and slowing down, or just plain slumping.

There was also the bit about increased focus on defense, and how that's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think this is also true; many of the new players coming up are not typical sluggers, but they are replacing guys who are.

munchman33
05-15-2008, 01:17 PM
Somehow, the Sox are 6th in runs scored/game in the AL at 4.35 runs/game (although I wonder what their average is in the last two or three weeks). They are fifth in runs allowed/game at 4.03.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2008.shtml

It's because we're hit or miss. We'll score all our runs for the week in two games.

tony1972
05-15-2008, 01:27 PM
Look at some of the final scores from around the AL tonight:

Indians 2, A's 0
Royals 2, Tigers 0
Yankees 2, Devil Rays 1
Mariners 4, Rangers 3
Sox 6, Angels 1
Orioles 6, Red Sox 3

The highest-scoring game in the league tonight was Toronto's 6-5 victory over the Twinkees. Cleveland starting pitchers are working on a streak of 43 consecutive scoreless innings. :o:

There is definitely some good pitching around the league.

I had no idea the Indians had been playing the White Sox this week...:scratch:

jdm2662
05-15-2008, 01:28 PM
I had no idea the Indians had been playing the White Sox this week...:scratch:

They do next week...

Jerome
05-15-2008, 01:34 PM
I suspect PEDs

TheVulture
05-17-2008, 03:50 PM
Am I the only one who thinks this a good thing?