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View Full Version : Strategy behind 8th Pick in the Draft....


Lip Man 1
05-13-2008, 12:21 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080512&content_id=2688835&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

btrain929
05-13-2008, 12:22 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080512&content_id=2688835&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnered=rss_mlb

They will be fiscally responsible with that draft pick. Fantastic. The top half of the 1st round is star studded in my opinion. Hopefully we don't take a guy who's projected as a late 1st rd'er/compensatory pick just because he'll be an easy sign....

btrain929
05-13-2008, 12:22 PM
Me and Lip were both on the story. Please merge...

palehozenychicty
05-13-2008, 01:09 PM
The White Sox need to start drafting and scouting better. I hope that this pick will be a start, but I'm not holding my breath.

champagne030
05-13-2008, 01:45 PM
Kenny cannot afford to spend a buck when he only has $.50......

Optipessimism
05-13-2008, 01:51 PM
Nothing surprising here.

I wish teams could trade draft picks in MLB. The Sox would make good use of it since they love to reach and take supplemental round talent in the first.

I have a real hard time buying the idea that Uribe, Hall, and Ozuna are worth the money the Sox gave them yet a top prospect who can be traded after only one year for an impact Major Leaguer is not.

More garbage from the FO.

Optipessimism
05-13-2008, 01:56 PM
Kenny cannot afford to spend a buck when he only has $.50......
The rumor out of Pittsburgh this year is that the Pirates are going to pony up. The Devil Rays should pony up like usual.

Let's see... The richest teams, the Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. all have a buck. Some of the poorest teams, like the Pirates and the Rays, have a buck as well. Kenny OTOH still has fifty cents.

Thanks, Jerry.

SoxxoS
05-13-2008, 03:36 PM
Not spending money on the minor league system as a whole is so PENNY WISE POUND FOOLISH as you can get.

How is Carlos Quentin's production looking at 400K a year? How much better would Smoak look at 1B after paying him that large signing bonus - when that bonus would equal HOW MUCH of Konerko's yearly salary? 15-20%? And we are talking one year.

I don't get it. You would think Reinsdorf would be the opposite. Joe Borchard didnt work out - But is was still "only" 5 million...which isnt a lot when you can get him making the league minimum for 3 years or whatever.

Baffling.

spawn
05-13-2008, 03:59 PM
My take onh the article is the Sox will make sure the player will be worth the money they end up paying him, and won't be a bust ala Joe Borchard. What's wrong with that? :scratch:

doublem23
05-13-2008, 04:01 PM
My take onh the article is the Sox will make sure the player will be worth the money they end up paying him, and won't be a bust ala Joe Borchard. What's wrong with that? :scratch:

I don't know, I read this article yesterday and I thought the same thing. The Sox took a tough loss yesterday so everyone is inching towards the ledge, I suppose.

cws05champ
05-13-2008, 04:01 PM
Not spending money on the minor league system as a whole is so PENNY WISE POUND FOOLISH as you can get.

How is Carlos Quentin's production looking at 400K a year? How much better would Smoak look at 1B after paying him that large signing bonus - when that bonus would equal HOW MUCH of Konerko's yearly salary? 15-20%? And we are talking one year.

I don't get it. You would think Reinsdorf would be the opposite. Joe Borchard didnt work out - But is was still "only" 5 million...which isnt a lot when you can get him making the league minimum for 3 years or whatever.

Baffling.
I couldn't agree more...some of the #'s they were throwing around in the article ($15M) was way out of proportion for what even the top players will get in the draft.

Here is the 1st round from last year and the bonus $$ compared with 06 and the slot recommendations. Only three guys in the 1st round were signed to a major league deal.

Pick. Team: Player, Pos.'07 Bonus'07 Est. Slot'06 Bonus'06 Est. SlotFIRST ROUNDFIRST ROUND1. Devil Rays: David Price, lhp$5,600,000$3,600,000$3,500,000$4,000,0002. Royals: Mike Moustakas, ss/3b$4,000,000$3,150,000$3,250,000$3,250,0003. Cubs: Josh Vitters, 3b$3,200,000$2,700,000$3,000,000$3,000,0004. Pirates: Daniel Moskos, lhp$2,475,000$2,475,000$2,750,000$2,750,0005. Orioles: Matt Wieters, c$6,000,000$2,250,000$2,450,000$2,500,0006. Nationals: Ross Detwiler, lhp$2,150,000$2,160,000$3,550,000$2,400,0007. Brewers: Matt LaPorta, of/1b$2,000,000$2,070,000$2,300,000$2,300,0008. Rockies: Casey Weathers, rhp$1,800,000$1,980,000$2,000,000$2,200,0009. Diamondbacks: Jarrod Parker, rhp$2,100,000$1,890,000$2,100,000$2,100,00010. Giants: Madison Bumgarner, lhp$2,000,000$1,800,000$2,025,000$2,000,000

I really hope they chose the best available talent with this pick. Especially since they don't pick again until the 3rd round.

jabrch
05-13-2008, 04:28 PM
Before (too late for some of you) you guys go nuts about this, read the article.


It said we won't pay 15mm for a guy worth 3mm, and that we know based on who the agent is if they are likely to want 15mm.

It also said that JR has never said no if they brought a guy they felt was worth it - like Borchard.


I really don't have a problem with that...

Bobby Jenks
05-13-2008, 05:02 PM
I would like to see them spend a little more on scouting and prospects than aging sluggers and pitchers.

btrain929
05-13-2008, 05:05 PM
My take onh the article is the Sox will make sure the player will be worth the money they end up paying him, and won't be a bust ala Joe Borchard. What's wrong with that? :scratch:

Question: Can any scout or any team "make sure" the player will be worth the money they end up paying?

Answer: No.

This draft pick is the only good thing to come out of the god awful '07 season, let's not **** this up, too.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 05:08 PM
I would like to see them spend a little more on scouting and prospects than aging sluggers and pitchers.

Agreed, although they should also spend more on player development, too. Maybe that's what you meant.
:D:

chaerulez
05-13-2008, 06:05 PM
To cite a specific example I don't understand, the Sox wouldn't sign Porcello because of the Boras factor. He signed a 4 year/7.28 million deal with the Tigers. As a high school pitcher he is a high risk, high reward pick. On the other end, the Sox picked up Uribe's option at 1 year/4.5 million. Uribe is basically a one dimensional player. So for less than 3 million more they could've had a top prospect. I don't know how MLB picks that sign MLB contracts work but I believe you still can't be a FA until 6 years service time, so if Porcello panned out they would've had him relatively cheap for six years. Not to mention top prospects are good trading chips. Look how Kenny was able to use players like Royce Ring, Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo, Brandon McCarthy, Gio, and DLS into key parts of our team. In that sense Porcello could've done a lot for us without even playing a game at the major league level.

Daver
05-13-2008, 06:25 PM
To cite a specific example I don't understand, the Sox wouldn't sign Porcello because of the Boras factor. He signed a 4 year/7.28 million deal with the Tigers. As a high school pitcher he is a high risk, high reward pick. On the other end, the Sox picked up Uribe's option at 1 year/4.5 million. Uribe is basically a one dimensional player. So for less than 3 million more they could've had a top prospect. I don't know how MLB picks that sign MLB contracts work but I believe you still can't be a FA until 6 years service time, so if Porcello panned out they would've had him relatively cheap for six years. Not to mention top prospects are good trading chips. Look how Kenny was able to use players like Royce Ring, Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo, Brandon McCarthy, Gio, and DLS into key parts of our team. In that sense Porcello could've done a lot for us without even playing a game at the major league level.

By insisting on an MLB contract he chased a lot of teams away, as did Mark Prior, regardless of the service time, he is earning MLB money to play in the minors, and has to be on the forty man roster. I have seen two players in the last fifteen years that were worth signing to an MLB contract directly from the draft, Ken Griffey jr, and Alex Rodriguez. Signing prospects to MLB contracts hurts the team in the long run unless the guy is a phenom that will make an MLB roster after his first ST session.

jabrch
05-13-2008, 07:37 PM
Question: Can any scout or any team "make sure" the player will be worth the money they end up paying?

Answer: No.


The key word there was "SURE" and of course the answer is no. But scouts are paid to give their opinion on the matter....that's why we have them.

jabrch
05-13-2008, 07:42 PM
To cite a specific example I don't understand, the Sox wouldn't sign Porcello because of the Boras factor. He signed a 4 year/7.28 million deal with the Tigers.

No - not the Boras factor. It didn't matter who his agent was, they were not going to gaurantee a HS pitcher that kind of money and give him a major league contract that would require they rush him to the majors.


On the other end, the Sox picked up Uribe's option at 1 year/4.5 million. Uribe is basically a one dimensional player.

As has been discussed before, we had no SS options at the time. Had we gotten Renteria, we'd have never resigned Uribe. Same with if OC had been traded here earlier. But we were at a deadline and had to do something with Uribe or risk not having a legitimate MLB SS going into camp. That was the only option at the time.

champagne030
05-13-2008, 08:24 PM
My take onh the article is the Sox will make sure the player will be worth the money they end up paying him, and won't be a bust ala Joe Borchard. What's wrong with that? :scratch:

I don't know, I read this article yesterday and I thought the same thing. The Sox took a tough loss yesterday so everyone is inching towards the ledge, I suppose.

Maybe it's just me, but that sure sounds like they are not going to pay above slot.....:scratch:

gogosox16
05-13-2008, 08:25 PM
Maybe it's just me, but that sure sounds like they are not going to pay above slot.....:scratch:
I got that same assumption from this article

TDog
05-13-2008, 08:51 PM
By insisting on an MLB contract he chased a lot of teams away, as did Mark Prior, regardless of the service time, he is earning MLB money to play in the minors, and has to be on the forty man roster. I have seen two players in the last fifteen years that were worth signing to an MLB contract directly from the draft, Ken Griffey jr, and Alex Rodriguez. Signing prospects to MLB contracts hurts the team in the long run unless the guy is a phenom that will make an MLB roster after his first ST session.

Those are excellent points. Also, players whose contracts demand accelerated promotion to the active major league roster hurt the team by minimizing the good years they have with the team before becoming arbitration and free-agent eligible.

The White Sox have a bunch of first-round draft picks on their team. Brian Anderson was theirs but most selected by other teams: Steve Swisher, John Danks, Carlos Quentin, Paul Konerko, Gavin Floyd. David Aardsma, now with the Red Sox, was a first-round pick, and he's in his third organization since he was traded by the Giants, who selected him. They weren't considered bad picks at the time. Players with major league experience often don't perform after getting big contracts. Players who have never played pro ball are even more unpredictable.

guillen4life13
05-13-2008, 09:32 PM
Those are excellent points. Also, players whose contracts demand accelerated promotion to the active major league roster hurt the team by minimizing the good years they have with the team before becoming arbitration and free-agent eligible.

The White Sox have a bunch of first-round draft picks on their team. Brian Anderson was theirs but most selected by other teams: Steve Swisher, John Danks, Carlos Quentin, Paul Konerko, Gavin Floyd. David Aardsma, now with the Red Sox, was a first-round pick, and he's in his third organization since he was traded by the Giants, who selected him. They weren't considered bad picks at the time. Players with major league experience often don't perform after getting big contracts. Players who have never played pro ball are even more unpredictable.

Nick. But someone should just name him Peach, Strawberry, or Grape.

TDog
05-13-2008, 10:11 PM
Nick. But someone should just name him Peach, Strawberry, or Grape.

I was trying not to make that mistake. Steve Swisher was a first round pick of the White Sox in 1973. He didn't have a great career, but he may be the only first round draft pick to be the father of a first-round draft pick. Jeff Weaver and Jared Weaver were both first round draft picks, but they are brothers.

Tragg
05-13-2008, 11:49 PM
As has been discussed before, we had no SS options at the time. Had we gotten Renteria, we'd have never resigned Uribe.
Yet somehow, Cabrera just happened to come available the next day - pure coincidence.
We could have gotten Adam Everett to hit .200 and field better than Uribe does for 1/3 of his price.

oeo
05-14-2008, 12:39 AM
Maybe it's just me, but that sure sounds like they are not going to pay above slot.....:scratch:

And I still agree with that. They should spend more money, but that should go into scouting and development...not one guy that may or may not make it to the big leagues.

Bobby Jenks
05-14-2008, 04:01 AM
I was trying not to make that mistake. Steve Swisher was a first round pick of the White Sox in 1973. He didn't have a great career, but he may be the only first round draft pick to be the father of a first-round draft pick. Jeff Weaver and Jared Weaver were both first round draft picks, but they are brothers.


You are forgetting Jeff Burroughs and his son Sean

DrCrawdad
05-14-2008, 07:29 AM
According to the Tribune the Sox have scouted Univ. of Georgia player, Joshua Fields. IF the Sox were to draft him, would that be the 3rd Josh Fields they've taken?

http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics29/200/XB/XBEOAOUWVRDXEVO.20070105201640.jpg
Joshua Fields (http://www.georgiadogs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8800&ATCLID=344286)

doublem23
05-14-2008, 08:18 AM
According to the Tribune the Sox have scouted Univ. of Georgia player, Joshua Fields. IF the Sox were to draft him, would that be the 3rd Josh Fields they've taken?

http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics29/200/XB/XBEOAOUWVRDXEVO.20070105201640.jpg
Joshua Fields (http://www.georgiadogs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8800&ATCLID=344286)

There's got to be 22 more of them out there somewhere.

btrain929
05-14-2008, 09:18 AM
According to the Tribune the Sox have scouted Univ. of Georgia player, Joshua Fields. IF the Sox were to draft him, would that be the 3rd Josh Fields they've taken?

http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics29/200/XB/XBEOAOUWVRDXEVO.20070105201640.jpg
Joshua Fields (http://www.georgiadogs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8800&ATCLID=344286)

Isn't he a closer there? Can't we get someone with a higher ceiling at the 8th pick then a college closer?

Optipessimism
05-14-2008, 12:19 PM
By insisting on an MLB contract he chased a lot of teams away, as did Mark Prior, regardless of the service time, he is earning MLB money to play in the minors, and has to be on the forty man roster. I have seen two players in the last fifteen years that were worth signing to an MLB contract directly from the draft, Ken Griffey jr, and Alex Rodriguez. Signing prospects to MLB contracts hurts the team in the long run unless the guy is a phenom that will make an MLB roster after his first ST session.
The Tigers signed Andrew Miller to a major league contract and dealt him with Cameron Maybin, who they also went over slot for, for Miguel Cabrera. They gave Porcello a major league contract as well and the next time another team makes an elite MLB player available, as long as the Tigers are interested they'll be the top suitor or one of the top suitors because of Porcello.

Kenny trades most of his top prospects anyway. Going over slot for a guy and then signing him to a major league contract doesn't mean anything if you deal him before he has a chance to prove he's the real deal in the majors.

If you hold onto a player on an MLB contract and you're worried about the 40-man roster space, there's always at least one mostly worthless player on every 40-man roster that can either be released outright or waived without a claim and outrighted to the minors. I doubt any GM in the world would think longer than one second on the issue of say Rick Porcello vs. Andy Gonzalez or Oneli Perez.

Also, even if you sign a player to an MLB contract, bring him up, and he turns out to be a bust, it wouldn't be the first time that has happened. I don't know what there is to be afraid of. I don't know why you'd worry more about an $8 million player being a bust than a $2 million player being a bust. Either way, that bust of a player is taking a crap on the major league field and the impacts on the MLB team record and the gate are much worse than the $6 million difference spread out over a 4 year period.

I'd much rather the Sox select the guy whom their scouts consider the best available player, go over slot, and then sign him to an MLB contract if necessary. You could end up with a bust either way, but I'd rather have the guy with the better chance of being an elite player. And if I was going to trade my prospect for an MLB player, I'd rather have the higher-ceilinged player on my side in that case as well.

The real reason behind this is Uncle Jerry and the views he shares with his Buddy Selig. The Sox don't want to do anything that someone in the big office might frown upon. They don't want to go over slot and they don't want to sign players to major league contracts. Nevermind the new rules that allow a team to reclaim a draft spot if they fail to sign a player. Nevermind the fact that out of 30 teams last year, only FOUR of them (Sox, Rockies, Reds, Twins) signed a player BELOW recommended slot. Nevermind that the Tigers added one of the best hitters in baseball and likely future HOF'er Miguel Cabrera to their lineup through 2016 because they took advantage of opportunities in the draft that the Sox turn their noses up at.

California Sox
05-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Isn't he a closer there? Can't we get someone with a higher ceiling at the 8th pick then a college closer?

He's a closer who has been restricted to one inning an appearance to maintain velo. Plus, he's a senior sign. Unlikely they would even have to pay him slot if they took him 8th. I refuse to believe in a draft with quite a few high-ceiling guys that they're going to take a senior reliever. Anything is possible but... wow. That would be disappointing.

Lip Man 1
05-15-2008, 11:22 AM
Opti:

Well thought out, researched post.

Lip