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View Full Version : KW Should Be On The Phone With The Dodgers.


Thome25
05-13-2008, 09:42 AM
Looks like LA is looking for a SS. Uribe SHOULD be packing his bags as we speak.

Link:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/05/dodgers-looking.html

Dodgers Link:

http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080512&content_id=2688312&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

SoxxoS
05-13-2008, 09:48 AM
Matt Kemp?

They have a lot of assets - Too bad Uribe sucks.

balke
05-13-2008, 09:51 AM
Matt Kemp?

They have a lot of assets - Too bad Uribe sucks.

ROFL. Even as a pipedream, that's pretty bad.

Thome25
05-13-2008, 09:59 AM
I really don't care what we would get for Uribe.......just get the Dodgers to take him off our hands.

Maybe they would want Cabrera instead? If I was KW I'd trade Cabrera to the Dodgers if the deal made sense.

russ99
05-13-2008, 10:20 AM
I really don't care what we would get for Uribe.......just get the Dodgers to take him off our hands.

Maybe they would want Cabrera instead? If I was KW I'd trade Cabrera to the Dodgers if the deal made sense.

I doubt the Sox will deal Cabrera at this point. Also, if we deal Uribe to them, we'd have to add a decent young player and also accept their overpayed garbage in return. Someone like Furcal or Pierre. Juan Uribe will not return a prospect in any kind of a deal.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 10:21 AM
I'd send either Cabrera or Uribe to them, their choice. I don't care who KW gets in return. If Cabrera leaves, move Uribe to SS and call up Getz to play 2B. If Uribe leaves, call up Getz to play 2B.

Heck, I would send them BOTH Uribe and Cabrera for a bag of balls just for the salary relief, which can be re-invested in a July deal to pick up a hitter and relief help. Then have Ramirez play SS and Getz play second, with Richar taking over 2B when he returns, and Getz becoming the utility IF.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 10:26 AM
I doubt the Sox will deal Cabrera at this point. Also, if we deal Uribe to them, we'd have to add a decent young player and also accept their overpayed garbage in return. Someone like Furcal or Pierre. Juan Uribe will not return a prospect in any kind of a deal.

According to the article, Furcal has been perhaps the best hitting shortstop to date (.366 on the year).

I'd kill to have a healthy Furcal and advocated signing him when his contract with the Braves was up, but I don't think the Dodgers would want to part with him right now, and even so, they couldn't deal him unless it was as a PTBNL since he's on the DL, and the Sox likely would not want to take the risk with him having a back injury.

Thome25
05-13-2008, 10:29 AM
I doubt the Sox will deal Cabrera at this point. Also, if we deal Uribe to them, we'd have to add a decent young player and also accept their overpayed garbage in return. Someone like Furcal or Pierre. Juan Uribe will not return a prospect in any kind of a deal.


IMO I don't think we'd have to take on one of their overpriced contracts. Uribe isn't that expensive @ 4.5mil. (He's still overpaid though.)

They're in a bad position right now and they might just take Uribe salary and all. Case in point they're looking to acquire an "emergency replacement".

Also, Uribe is a FA after the season is over so it's not like it's a long-term bad contract like Jones or Pierre. Uribe will be gone after this year so I doubt we'd have to take one of their bad long-term contracts for a rental.

the1tab
05-13-2008, 10:39 AM
ROFL. Even as a pipedream, that's pretty bad.

Maybe we can throw in Jose Contreras w/ Uribe for Jason Schmidt and Andruw Jones... LOL.

In all reality, though... they appear to be thrilled w/ the kid DeWitt at third and Furcal's playing well at short. I would have to think Jeff Kent and Andruw Jones are Players 1A & 1B that they want to unload right now. Neither one of them does anything for me. They would be crazy to move any of their young talent; they have far too much up & coming good to keep paying dried up vets like Kent, Nomar & Jones.

CashMan
05-13-2008, 10:45 AM
IMO I don't think we'd have to take on one of their overpriced contracts. Uribe isn't that expensive @ 4.5mil. (He's still overpaid though.)



LOL, not expensive........

Sockinchisox
05-13-2008, 11:00 AM
According to the article, Furcal has been perhaps the best hitting shortstop to date (.366 on the year).

I'd kill to have a healthy Furcal and advocated signing him when his contract with the Braves was up, but I don't think the Dodgers would want to part with him right now, and even so, they couldn't deal him unless it was as a PTBNL since he's on the DL, and the Sox likely would not want to take the risk with him having a back injury.

There is no way they're going to trade Furcal, they want an emergency shortstop for 15 days, then once that's done, their new shortstop rides the pine.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 11:06 AM
There is no way they're going to trade Furcal, they want an emergency shortstop for 15 days, then once that's done, their new shortstop rides the pine.

I agree. I was trying to point out to the poster I had quoted that Furcal was not a realistic option for the Sox.

VeeckAsInWreck
05-13-2008, 11:21 AM
Looks like LA is looking for a SS. Uribe SHOULD be packing his bags as we speak.

Uribe has been hitting as of late, let's not start making moves we'll regret later.

Sockinchisox
05-13-2008, 11:22 AM
I agree. I was trying to point out to the poster I had quoted that Furcal was not a realistic option for the Sox.

Oh, my bad.

soxtalker
05-13-2008, 11:35 AM
Uribe has been hitting as of late, let's not start making moves we'll regret later.

IIRC, Uribe has a history of being a streak hitter. So, trading him now would probably be more of a case of selling "high". Sure, we can use all the hits we can get right now, but we'll probably need them in a few weeks when Uribe goes into one of his low-hit streaks.

Of course, other teams will know his history, so I doubt that the Sox would be able to sell either "high" or "low". A team might acquire him if they have a need for a SS for a big chunk of the season (not 15 days). He's a known quantity -- pluses and minuses -- and it might be what a team needs due to an injury.

ondafarm
05-13-2008, 11:59 AM
I'd send Uribe in a cab in a minute. Heck, I'd pay the cab fare in advance. Cabrera is a different story.

Chicken Dinner
05-13-2008, 01:20 PM
:uribe:
Hate me all you want but I'm your 2008 starting 2nd baseman.
And Kenny and Ozzie say that too. :tongue:

getonbckthr
05-13-2008, 01:49 PM
I would have no problem with a Uribe for Pierre or Kent deal.

jabrch
05-13-2008, 02:02 PM
I'd send Uribe in a cab in a minute. Heck, I'd pay the cab fare in advance. Cabrera is a different story.

Just for the record, who plays 2B?

getonbckthr
05-13-2008, 02:05 PM
Just for the record, who plays 2B?
Alexi?

alohafri
05-13-2008, 02:17 PM
I would have no problem with a Uribe for Pierre or Kent deal.

Aren't Kent and Pierre AARP members? If we trade Uribe, I'd like him to be traded for someone who could possibly stick around a few years.

jabrch
05-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Alexi?

I'm just not convinced he's ready to be playing every day here. In fact, I think we'd be longing for Uribe after a few weeks of Alexi every day.

If we had a better option at 2B, I'd be all for it. But until we see if Richar is healthy and can at least be better than Uribe, I can't see trading him.

ondafarm
05-13-2008, 03:50 PM
Just for the record, who plays 2B?

Heck, I'd bring Swisher in, at least he hits better.

103 screwball
05-13-2008, 03:58 PM
Trade Cabrera if the deal makes sense. I don't think he will be back next year anyway. Why Why Why is Alexi Ramirez not getting 4-5 abs a night playing short for the Knights getting ready for next year? Never mind, stubbornness of course.

jabrch
05-13-2008, 04:26 PM
Heck, I'd bring Swisher in, at least he hits better.

So seriously....if you are running the show, and you unload Uribe, who plays 2B?

DickAllen72
05-13-2008, 04:37 PM
The Sox would be stupid to unload Uribe right now, unless they get a quality major league middle infielder to take his place.

fquaye149
05-13-2008, 04:50 PM
So seriously....if you are running the show, and you unload Uribe, who plays 2B?
:rolleyes:

Just about anyone--Getz, Ramirez, Ozuna

It's ****ing 2B, not SS or CF

kittle42
05-13-2008, 04:53 PM
:rolleyes:

Just about anyone--Getz, Ramirez, Ozuna

It's ****ing 2B, not SS or CF

I believe the Rockies tried this philosophy with Jayson Nix. That worked well.

Jimmy Piersall
05-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Trade Cabrera if the deal makes sense. I don't think he will be back next year anyway. Why Why Why is Alexi Ramirez not getting 4-5 abs a night playing short for the Knights getting ready for next year? Never mind, stubbornness of course.

Dead on...Ramirez & Richar (when healthy) should spend the whole year there playing every day and getting familiar with each other in the field
so that they're ready (we hope) to step in next year when Uribe and
Cabrera are gone.

Craig Grebeck
05-13-2008, 05:19 PM
Trade Cabrera? Insane. **** draft picks!

jabrch
05-13-2008, 05:21 PM
The Sox would be stupid to unload Uribe right now, unless they get a quality major league middle infielder to take his place.

That's what I am thinking....

Richar, Getz, Ramirez.... Sounds like a terrible IF to me. OC and Uribe, while they have had a rough go at it so far, are likely to be better than Getz/Richar/Ramirez both offensively and defensively by the time it is all said and done this year.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 05:22 PM
That's what I am thinking....

Richar, Getz, Ramirez.... Sounds like a terrible IF to me. OC and Uribe, while they have had a rough go at it so far, are likely to be better than Getz/Richar/Ramirez both offensively and defensively by the time it is all said and done this year.

Voice of reason! HOORAY!

fquaye149
05-13-2008, 05:33 PM
I believe the Rockies tried this philosophy with Jayson Nix. That worked well.

You don't think Chris Getz can play an acceptable 2B? or Alexei Ramirez?

Remember, all we're talking about is fielding the position at a capable level. Not hitting.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 05:43 PM
You don't think Chris Getz can play an acceptable 2B? or Alexei Ramirez?

Remember, all we're talking about is fielding the position at a capable level. Not hitting.

I'm not syaing they couldn't adequately field. If that's the argument, then I agree.

But Uribe is likely a better hitter (and fielder) than both.

JB98
05-13-2008, 05:47 PM
I think most of the pleas for Getz and Ramirez are out of frustration with Cabrera and Uribe and nothing more.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Getz and Ramirez would do a better job than the status quo.

doublem23
05-13-2008, 05:49 PM
There is no evidence whatsoever that Getz and Ramirez would do a better job than the status quo.

Chris Getz and Alexei Ramirez are totally rocking for my PS3 White Sox team right now.

fquaye149
05-13-2008, 05:51 PM
I'm not syaing they couldn't adequately field. If that's the argument, then I agree.

But Uribe is likely a better hitter (and fielder) than both.

A better fielder? Sure. But it's 2B. If we can get SOLID 2B and get something (if only salary relief) for Uribe, that's fine with me.

A better hitter? Maybe marginally. But I doubt it.

fquaye149
05-13-2008, 05:52 PM
I think most of the pleas for Getz and Ramirez are out of frustration with Cabrera and Uribe and nothing more.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Getz and Ramirez would do a better job than the status quo.

It's not necessarily a plea for Getz or Ramirez, but a statement that Uribe isn't particularly valuable to us, but may be valuable to LA.

We're paying Uribe 4.5 million to play a very good defensive 2B and hit for ****. Not doing it for me.

I'd rather have Getz or Ramirez for much less

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 06:12 PM
I think most of the pleas for Getz and Ramirez are out of frustration with Cabrera and Uribe and nothing more.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Getz and Ramirez would do a better job than the status quo.

I agree with your first statement.

But in response to your second statement, there is no evidence that Uribe will ever be a better hitter. In fact, there is almost five years of evidence that demonstrates that he is a very poor, inconsistent hitter, who happens to have one or two really hot streaks each year. If the choice is between Uribe and Getz at 2B, I'd prefer the "devil I don't know," because I've seen enough of the one we all know all too well.

JB98
05-13-2008, 06:16 PM
It's not necessarily a plea for Getz or Ramirez, but a statement that Uribe isn't particularly valuable to us, but may be valuable to LA.

We're paying Uribe 4.5 million to play a very good defensive 2B and hit for ****. Not doing it for me.

I'd rather have Getz or Ramirez for much less

I've stated many times that the Sox should send Ramirez down to Charlotte to play SS. The organization needs to learn whether he's a viable candidate to replace Cabrera at the major-league level next season.

I really don't know enough about Getz to judge whether he'd be a better option than Uribe right now. If he was, I have to think KW would have him here. They are keeping Uribe around, IMO, because Richar is injured.

If Richar comes back and does well enough on a rehab assignment, I have to think we'll see Uribe out of here by midseason.

IMO, the 2009 Sox infield will consist of Konerko and three new starters.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 06:20 PM
I've stated many times that the Sox should send Ramirez down to Charlotte to play SS. The organization needs to learn whether he's a viable candidate to replace Cabrera at the major-league level next season.

I agree with this. But having him ride the pine does him and the Sox no good this year or for the future.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see Ramirez sent to Charlotte, Getz promoted into the utility IF role, and Richar and Ramirez learning to play together in Charlotte.

JB98
05-13-2008, 06:20 PM
I agree with your first statement.

But in response to your second statement, there is no evidence that Uribe will ever be a better hitter. In fact, there is almost five years of evidence that demonstrates that he is a very poor, inconsistent hitter, who happens to have one or two really hot streaks each year. If the choice is between Uribe and Getz at 2B, I'd prefer the "devil I don't know," because I've seen enough of the one we all know all too well.

As I told fquaye, I don't know enough about Getz to judge whether he'd be an upgrade over Uribe. I assume Juan is the better defender, so that's why they stick with him. Uribe can't hit; this much is true. We have to assume Getz would struggle at the dish as well if he were called up. If offense is equal, I guess you take the better defensive player.

If Getz really is a better option than Uribe, I assume KW knows that and he'll make a change.

JB98
05-13-2008, 06:22 PM
I agree with this. But having him ride the pine does him and the Sox no good this year or for the future.

No question. Ramirez is not helping the Sox win at the big-league level right now, nor is he developing his skills or gaining experience.

It's lose-lose for the player and for the organization.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 06:30 PM
No question. Ramirez is not helping the Sox win at the big-league level right now, nor is he developing his skills or gaining experience.

It's lose-lose for the player and for the organization.

So how about sending down Ramirez and calling up Getz, a natural 2B?

Getz may have trouble adjusting to MLB pitching at first, but he's always had a great BB:K rate and seems to be able to do the "little things" well.

Uribe backs up Cabrera at SS, and Getz backs up Uribe.

JB98
05-13-2008, 06:40 PM
So how about sending down Ramirez and calling up Getz, a natural 2B?

Getz may have trouble adjusting to MLB pitching at first, but he's always had a great BB:K rate and seems to be able to do the "little things" well.

Uribe backs up Cabrera at SS, and Getz backs up Uribe.

Or put Getz in the backup role that Ramirez is in right now.

I'm talking out my ass on Getz because I've only seen him play a couple times, but everything I've read projects him as a backup infielder.

No matter what they do, I think it's imperative they get Ramirez some playing time. He's a project, but he's a high-ceiling player. It sure would help if they could develop this kid into an everyday major-leaguer.

If Ramirez doesn't pan, they have to overpay for a free-agent shortstop next offseason, or bring in a veteran stopgap. Horror of horrors, that could lead to Uribe being back at SS for 2009.

Daver
05-13-2008, 06:43 PM
I wouldn't hesitate to put Ramirez at 2nd and bench Uribe, Alexei is not going to gain much from going to Charlotte.

JB98
05-13-2008, 06:46 PM
I wouldn't hesitate to put Ramirez at 2nd and bench Uribe, Alexei is not going to gain much from going to Charlotte.

But if he is considered the future at SS, wouldn't he be better off playing SS?

Daver
05-13-2008, 06:50 PM
But if he is considered the future at SS, wouldn't he be better off playing SS?

He'd be better off facing MLB pitching. He's not going to forget how to play SS.

santo=dorf
05-13-2008, 08:28 PM
Trade Cabrera? Insane. **** draft picks!
-Cabrera is not guaranteed type A status, especially with this season
-The Sox have to offer arbitriation on a $9 million contract. Very risky
-Unlike David Riske who made $1.8 million and the Sox didn't offer arbitration when he was a type A free agent
-Cabrera still has to refuse the arbitration.
-What will the Sox brass do with the draft picks?

**** Cabrera. He likes the warmer weather, so see if we can get a seasoned prospect for him instead of hoping to maybe make the risk of offering arbitration to get some picks the White Sox management may not use so well.

santo=dorf
05-13-2008, 08:30 PM
He'd be better off facing MLB pitching. He's not going to forget how to play SS.
I thought baseball strictly isn't an offensive sport and the middle infielders should only be concerned with their defense?

Daver
05-13-2008, 08:32 PM
I thought baseball strictly isn't an offensive sport and the middle infielders should only be concerned with their defense?

What's your point?

santo=dorf
05-13-2008, 08:44 PM
What's your point?
Pick a side an stick with it.

Suggesting Fields over Crede so he can face MLB pitching = wrong

Keeping Ramirez at the MLB level, when he looks way overmatched, to play at a defensive position with the main reason to face MLB pitching = right.

:?:

Daver
05-13-2008, 08:49 PM
Pick a side an stick with it.

Suggesting Fields over Crede so he can face MLB pitching = wrong

Keeping Ramirez at the MLB level, when he looks way overmatched, to play at a defensive position with the main reason to face MLB pitching = right.

:?:

When did I ever say Fields should play instead of Crede?

Uribe is contributing little offensively, and you have a player that you have very little scouting on, other than knowing that Cuban pitching is about on par with minor league pitching here, logic says give him a long look and evaluate what you have.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 09:02 PM
Uribe is contributing little offensively, and you have a player that you have very little scouting on, other than knowing that Cuban pitching is about on par with minor league pitching here, logic says give him a long look and evaluate what you have.

Fair enough. I could live with Ramirez over Uribe as the everyday 2B this year.

What do you think of Getz, though?

Daver
05-13-2008, 09:42 PM
Fair enough. I could live with Ramirez over Uribe as the everyday 2B this year.

What do you think of Getz, though?

Given a choice between Chris Getz and Danny Richar, I'd take Richar.

Chicken Dinner
05-13-2008, 09:47 PM
Juan batting .310 in May. I'm glad your not the GM or Manager.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 09:58 PM
Given a choice between Chris Getz and Danny Richar, I'd take Richar.

What about Getz as a utility IF?

Daver
05-13-2008, 10:03 PM
What about Getz as a utility IF?

He could do it, but would be a liability at 3rd and SS.

Daver
05-13-2008, 10:05 PM
Juan batting .310 in May. I'm glad your not the GM or Manager.

Likewise I'm more than sure.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 10:40 PM
He could do it, but would be a liability at 3rd and SS.

OK. So do you see him as a possible MLB second baseman (I agree that Richar is better), or a career minor leaguer, or a utility guy?

Daver
05-13-2008, 10:47 PM
OK. So do you see him as a possible MLB second baseman (I agree that Richar is better), or a career minor leaguer, or a utility guy?

Without seeing him face MLB pitching it is a tough call, he could be a decent bench guy, he could be a 4A player, nothing he has done makes me think he needs to be on an MLB roster.

Tragg
05-14-2008, 12:28 AM
Looks like LA is looking for a SS. Uribe SHOULD be packing his bags as we speak.
Send them Uribe...Send em Cabrera - he's horrible. He's also set in stone as Ozzie's leadoff hitter.


Ozzie won't give up one of his hackers without a fight.
This team needs Richar and needs him badly. He can play 2nd and he can also leadoff - he has a little speed and his instincts are toward plate patience.

Chicken Dinner
05-14-2008, 01:13 AM
Likewise I'm more than sure.

Maybe it's just because I've read your posts. :scratch:

Thome25
05-14-2008, 08:51 AM
Juan batting .310 in May. I'm glad your not the GM or Manager.

Give him time he'll be hitting .230 before the month is over. If Uribe isn't going to hit, why not start a young player at 2b and let him learn how to hit MLB pitching?

If we're going to have a player (or two including Cabrera.) who isn't hitting in our infield, we might as well have a young player who isn't hitting that way at least they're learning at the same time.

AZChiSoxFan
05-14-2008, 08:55 AM
Looks like LA is looking for a SS. Uribe SHOULD be packing his bags as we speak.






Why? Do the Dodgers have an extra bag o' balls they are looking to get rid of?

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 12:30 PM
I'm going to get flamed for this, but what about getting Juan Pierre from the Dodgers and having him DH? We could send them Uribe, since they need a shortstop with Furcal out, and perhaps a prospect. Or perhaps Uribe would be enough if the Sox agreed to pick up all of Pierre's contract. Then, trade Thome to a team that needs a power-hitting DH, like the Texas Rangers (where the jet stream to RCF and short RF fence would make him even more effective when pulling the ball).

Pierre may not be the ideal leadoff hitter, but he's hitting better than Thome this year. Thome homers, but Pierre steals bases (on pace for 67 this year). He's also extremely durable. Defense is his shortcoming, but that wouldn't matter at DH. He can also bunt his way on base and bunt to advance a runner. He doesn't walk much, but he walks more than he strikes out (41:39 BB:K ratio for an average season over his career). He's walked nine times and struck out only three times so far this year, and he's only been caught stealing once this year (in 14 attempts).

For those that say a team simply must get power from the DH, I ask you this: What do the Sox have in abundance? High-strikeout power hitters. What do the Sox not have? Speed. Case closed. Given how the rest of the roster is constructed, I'd rather have Pierre than Thome. (If the Sox had a bunch of fast slappers, then I'd deal speed to get power and would want Thome instead of Pierre.)

Here's the lineup:

Pierre DH
Cabrera SS
Quentin LF
Dye RF
AJ C
Paulie 1B
Crede 3B
Getz 2B (Richar takes over when he's healthy)
BA CF

sox1970
05-14-2008, 12:38 PM
I'm going to get flamed for this, but what about getting Juan Pierre from the Dodgers and having him DH? We could send them Uribe, since they need a shortstop with Furcal out, and perhaps a prospect. Or perhaps Uribe would be enough if the Sox agreed to pick up all of Pierre's contract. Then, trade Thome to a team that needs a power-hitting DH, like the Texas Rangers (where the jet stream to RCF and short RF fence would make him even more effective when pulling the ball).

Pierre may not be the ideal leadoff hitter, but he's hitting better than Thome this year.

I wouldn't be against this. Anything to break up the team, and bring in more contact hitters is fine. Pierre wouldn't be a solution, but a decent stopgap while they're finding out what young players can play, and while some minor leaguers like Jose Martinez and Kent Gerst are developing.

Thome has no trade value though. He's had a nice career, but it's coming to an end very soon. I could see him being released at the All Star break, getting picked up by a team, continuing to suck, and then retiring at the end of this season.

kittle42
05-14-2008, 12:47 PM
Thome has no trade value though. He's had a nice career, but it's coming to an end very soon. I could see him being released at the All Star break, getting picked up by a team, continuing to suck, and then retiring at the end of this season.

You people are nuts. Thome isn't getting released in 2008. These threads will be fun to read back over when he hits 35 homers.

And the only question Juan Pierre is an answer to is "who would you rather have on this team less than the current players?"

munchman33
05-14-2008, 12:50 PM
Pierre DH
Cabrera SS
Quentin LF
Dye RF
AJ C
Paulie 1B
Crede 3B
Getz 2B (Richar takes over when he's healthy)
BA CF

We didn't mortgage the future to have Swisher ride the pine.

fquaye149
05-14-2008, 01:40 PM
We didn't mortgage the future to have Swisher ride the pine.

Not that I disagree with your POV re: playing Swisher, but isn't bullheadedly sticking with players because of who we gave up to get them or what dollar amount we signed them to the kind of thing an organization should try to avoid.

nb: I am still a Swisher backer and think he should be playing the majority of games for us

Droso5
05-14-2008, 02:07 PM
This year was the last year ,IMO, that this core of players was going to be around. So far, it isn't working and it hasn't worked since late 2006. Things need to change. The problem is that our front office and head coach seem to be resistant to change and so we get "major shakeups" that include putting a #2 hitter in the leadoff spot....and, well, put the #2 guy in the leadoff spot. The Sox seem to be holding onto a ghost at this point and keeping the vets past their sell-by dates. I'm not on the ledge, but this seems like the last lap for this core of players.
The pitching is most def. there, something needs to be done to reshape this team. That much should be obvious.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 02:11 PM
We didn't mortgage the future to have Swisher ride the pine.

You're right; my bad. Swisher would be the super-sub, getting ABs in LF, CF, RF and 1B to provide days off for Quentin, BA, Dye and Paulie.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 02:28 PM
And the only question Juan Pierre is an answer to is "who would you rather have on this team less than the current players?"

Are you that certain Thome will hit 35 HR? Even if he does, would the loss of 35 HR cripple the Sox? Removing Thome's 35 HR from this offense would be like amputating a testicle from a corpse. Adding Pierre would be a needed shot in the arm to get things moving.

You can have Thome's 35 HR, endless Ks, countless grounders into the shift, nagging back and charity work.

I'll take Pierre's 60 SB, .290 average, 9 triples, 24 doubles, ability to bunt for hits or sacrifices, durability and crooked cap.

Droso5
05-14-2008, 02:34 PM
You're right; my bad. Swisher would be the super-sub, getting ABs in LF, CF, RF and 1B to provide days off for Quentin, BA, Dye and Paulie.

Fine. Changes need to be made and he would be an ideal candidate for a super-sub, b/c playing in CF seems to be wearing him down or something like that. The fact is that things have to be changed, whether the SOX wait until the trade deadline or the end of th season or even just bringing up some young talent to see what they have. I'm not saying wave a white flag but if this garbage keeps getting trotted out with the same result for yet another year, it needs to get blowed up all nice and good.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Shipping off Uribe and Thome and bringing in Pierre and Getz (then Richar, when he's healthy) is not waving the white flag. It's re-mixing the roster on the fly; it's trading from strength (power) to offset a weakness (speed).

kittle42
05-14-2008, 02:42 PM
I'll take Pierre's 60 SB, .290 average, 9 triples, 24 doubles, ability to bunt for hits or sacrifices, durability and crooked cap.

And .296 OBP.

kittle42
05-14-2008, 02:44 PM
Shipping off Uribe and Thome and bringing in Pierre and Getz (then Richar, when he's healthy) is not waving the white flag. It's re-mixing the roster on the fly; it's trading from strength (power) to offset a weakness (speed).

While this team is about as fast as a snail, its primary weakness is not speed - it's lack of baserunners.

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 02:44 PM
And .296 OBP.

Really? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6550)

Droso5
05-14-2008, 02:47 PM
And .296 OBP.

He will fit right in!

alohafri
05-14-2008, 02:48 PM
I'll take Pierre's 60 SB, .290 average, 9 triples, 24 doubles, ability to bunt for hits or sacrifices, durability and crooked cap.

Who is going to be his cutoff man for the cutoff man?

Droso5
05-14-2008, 02:48 PM
Really? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6550)

TOUCHE!

I guess he won't fit right in....

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 02:53 PM
Who is going to be his cutoff man for the cutoff man?

To cut off his throws from the DH's spot on the bench when the Sox are on the field? :tongue:

Droso5
05-14-2008, 02:57 PM
Who is going to be his cutoff man for the cutoff man?

Can you put that in teal please? This is a discussion about offense. He still brings some very solid stuff to the "table". We may be witnessing the utter destruction of Fortress Thome(tm) If his keeps crapping on home plate every at-bat then the Sox need to start thinking about really "shaking things up" a little more than putting Cabrerra at leadoff, which was a real gigantic move, but not gigantic enough.

DL Knoerko so he can get healthy, because he looks like a busted toilet up at the plate and use that opportunity to make some real moves. :gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 02:59 PM
Just to reiterate, I would acquire Pierre specifically to DH and lead off. The Sox have enough OFs with Swisher, Quentin, Dye and BA.

roadrunner
05-14-2008, 03:04 PM
Who is going to be his cutoff man for the cutoff man?

the same cutoff man for cutoff man taking swisher's throws

the1tab
05-14-2008, 03:57 PM
Are you that certain Thome will hit 35 HR? Even if he does, would the loss of 35 HR cripple the Sox? Removing Thome's 35 HR from this offense would be like amputating a testicle from a corpse. Adding Pierre would be a needed shot in the arm to get things moving.

Priceless.... lol....

You can have Thome's 35 HR, endless Ks, countless grounders into the shift, nagging back and charity work.

Saying Thome hits 35 home runs this years is assuming he makes contact 29 more times... which I'm not sure I'm sold on right now.

As far as I'm concerned, Jim Thome = Adam Dunn without the hose for an arm.

What about talking to someone who has some pieces to make a run but sucks right now like... the Padres? Their OF is a wreck (they're starting a Hairston & a Giles) and they are in desperate need of a 3B (Edgar Gonzalez?). They also seem to have an abundance of pitching and have some youth they could move. They only position players they seem totally sold on are Adrian Gonzalez & Khalil Greene (Spacoli?). They also play in a division where Arizona looks distgustingly good and the Dodgers & Giants make them a perfect candidate for a wild card run if they can make something happen. They just released Edmonds, which signifies to me that they're not giving up on this season just because they started aweful. With their pitching, if they get 4 runs a game they'll win 70% of them. I could see Fields, Uribe & just about anyone else (Dye?) being appetizing to them. Thoughts on the Padres as a trade partner?

santo=dorf
05-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Just to reiterate, I would acquire Pierre specifically to DH and lead off. The Sox have enough OFs with Swisher, Quentin, Dye and BA.
Pierre as the everday DH.


WSI has reached a new low. :anon:

Craig Grebeck
05-14-2008, 06:34 PM
Swisher on the bench and Pierre everyday DH = new(er) low

santo=dorf
05-14-2008, 07:01 PM
Pierre DH
Cabrera SS
Dye RF
Crede 3B
Swisher 1B
AJ C
Anderson CF
Owens LF
Uribe 2B

Look at all those ties to 2005 and all that speed and HEART!!!

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 07:47 PM
Pierre as the everday DH.
WSI has reached a new low. :anon:

Pierre everyday DH = new(er) low

:?: Why?

Because you're hopelessly wedded to the groupthink that a DH must be a power hitter? The same groupthink that values HRs above all else? The same groupthink that keeps people defending Walker because Hawk says hitting coach is the hardest uniformed job in baseball? The same groupthink that delivered corpseball for the last decade, other than 2005 and parts of 2000 and 2006?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. The only year the Sox did something different was the year they had a legitimate leadoff hitter, and the year they won the World Series. The 2005 Sox still had plenty of power, but also could manufacture runs when the homers were not flying, to score enough runs that the excellent pitching staff was able to win low-scoring games as well as the games when they outslugged their opponents. This year's offense is the same as the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2007 offenses, and is the reason why we have corpseball yet again.

:kukoo:

fquaye149
05-14-2008, 08:30 PM
:?: Why?

Because you're hopelessly wedded to the groupthink that a DH must be a power hitter? The same groupthink that values HRs above all else? The same groupthink that keeps people defending Walker because Hawk says hitting coach is the hardest uniformed job in baseball? The same groupthink that delivered corpseball for the last decade, other than 2005 and parts of 2000 and 2006?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. The only year the Sox did something different was the year they had a legitimate leadoff hitter, and the year they won the World Series. The 2005 Sox still had plenty of power, but also could manufacture runs when the homers were not flying, to score enough runs that the excellent pitching staff was able to win low-scoring games as well as the games when they outslugged their opponents. This year's offense is the same as the 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2007 offenses, and is the reason why we have corpseball yet again.

:kukoo:

So getting a guy who's a chronically lousy hitter on the strength of 1.5 months in the NL, the first decent stretch of hitting he's had since 2004, to play a position whose only purpose is to produce offense is not insanity?

Frater Perdurabo
05-14-2008, 09:32 PM
So getting a guy who's a chronically lousy hitter on the strength of 1.5 months in the NL, the first decent stretch of hitting he's had since 2004, to play a position whose only purpose is to produce offense is not insanity?

Chronically lousy? He's a .300 career hitter with a career .348 OBP. He's averaged a little lower the past couple of seasons, but he's back up this year.

He doesn't walk a lot, but he walks more than than he strikes out.

He also steals bases and can bunt for hits or but for sacrifices; two things the Sox do not have right now.

Again, if the Sox had a bunch of speedy slappers, I'd trade one to get a power hitter.

But the Sox already have lots of power hitters at every corner position, and one waiting in the wings in Charlotte (Fields). Why not trade one power hitter who can only DH and who is fragile and aging to make room for a speedy slapper?

santo=dorf
05-14-2008, 09:40 PM
...because the "speedy slapper" burned the Sox last year and Cabrera hasn't shown **** this year?

...because the DH rule was put in effect to prevent a spot in the order putting up crappy offensive numbers?

...because ever since that rule teams take advantage of that spot by putting a great offensive player who is a defensively liability?

...because good power hitters are more important than speedy slappers?

In Juan Pierre's case he's overpaid as well.

fquaye149
05-14-2008, 09:45 PM
Chronically lousy? He's a .300 career hitter with a career .348 OBP. He's averaged a little lower the past couple of seasons, but he's back up this year.

He doesn't walk a lot, but he walks more than than he strikes out.

He also steals bases and can bunt for hits or but for sacrifices; two things the Sox do not have right now.

Again, if the Sox had a bunch of speedy slappers, I'd trade one to get a power hitter.

But the Sox already have lots of power hitters at every corner position, and one waiting in the wings in Charlotte (Fields). Why not trade one power hitter who can only DH and who is fragile and aging to make room for a speedy slapper?

:rolling:

Your love for Pierre knows no bounds of reasonable rationality.

2005: .326 OBP
2006: .330 OBP
2007: .331 OBP

For a guy with absolutely no power, that's chronically lousy.

Quoting his career numbers are pointless because he's past his prime AND he has had lousy years the last 3 years.

To put a guy who, over the past 3 years, has only OBPed .326 and has absolutely no power (SLG's between .350 and .380 over that period) at DH is ridiculous, no matter how many bases he steals.

:scratch:

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 07:28 AM
:rolling:

Your love for Pierre knows no bounds of reasonable rationality.

2005: .326 OBP
2006: .330 OBP
2007: .331 OBP

For a guy with absolutely no power, that's chronically lousy.

Quoting his career numbers are pointless because he's past his prime AND he has had lousy years the last 3 years.

To put a guy who, over the past 3 years, has only OBPed .326 and has absolutely no power (SLG's between .350 and .380 over that period) at DH is ridiculous, no matter how many bases he steals.

:scratch:

Jim Thome's nice OBP looks nice on paper, but a lot of it is totally worthless. When Thome walks, there aren't many ways to score him, and they all require a lot of things to "go right" (we'll leave HBPs and errors out of the equation):

Three more walks
A single and two walks
Two singles and a walk
Three singles
A single and a double
A home run or a triple

In addition, a Jim Thome walk never scores a run unless the bases already are loaded.

But when Pierre gets on base, more often via a single than via a walk, these are the ADDITIONAL ways he can score:

Two singles
One double
A walk and a single
A steal, a bunt and a sac fly
A steal, a bunt and a single
A steal, a grounder to the right side, and a sac fly
A steal, a grounder to the right side, and a single
A steal and a single
A steal and a double
Two steals and a sac fly
Two steals and a single

Tell me again how valuable Thome's extra walks are, when it takes so many positive outcomes to score him after he's walked?

The bottom line is that because Thome is so slow, and because it takes so much to score him, his walks really are not all that helpful!

Pierre does not walk as much, and isn't on base as much, but because there are so many more ways he can score when he is on base, and because not as much has to "go right" for him to score, each time he's on base he's more likely to score!

In addition, his speed helps the hitter at the plate because it forces the opposing team to:

1. Have the pitcher throw from the stretch
2. Have the pitcher throw more fastballs
3. Have the 1B to play at the bag, making big hole between 1B & 2B
4. Have the pitcher throw to 1B, causing a distraction
5. Have the catcher worried about the steal and more likely to make a mistake

Finally, Pierre's critics many criticize the number of times he's caught stealing, but how many times is a Thome walk followed up with a GIDP, in part because Thome is so slow? Pierre is much less likely to run into a GIDP because he's so fast on the basepaths! I'll take the caught stealing. You can keep your miserable GIDPs.

Why is it so hard to understand that World Series are not won with calculators and pocket protectors! :kukoo:

santo=dorf
05-15-2008, 07:37 AM
Ah yes, another overused WSI cliche.

OBP = calculator work. :rolleyes:


Juan Pierre's top run scoring seasons: 108, 100, 100
Jim Thome's top run scoring seasons: 122, 111, 108, 106, 104, 101, 101, 101

Should I even bother to compare their RBI totals?


Juan Pierre as the DH = :rolleyes: :rolling:

NSBB.com people are reading your posts and are now going to think this mentality with Pierre and stuck in 2005 applies to all Sox fans. Thanks. They know Pierre's grindy antics better than you.

Lillian
05-15-2008, 08:57 AM
Frater, just wanted to give kudos to your very thoughtful posts in this thread. Very insightful analysis. Thanks

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 09:13 AM
Ah yes, another overused WSI cliche.

OBP = calculator work. :rolleyes:

Juan Pierre's top run scoring seasons: 108, 100, 100
Jim Thome's top run scoring seasons: 122, 111, 108, 106, 104, 101, 101, 101

Should I even bother to compare their RBI totals?

Juan Pierre as the DH = :rolleyes: :rolling:

NSBB.com people are reading your posts and are now going to think this mentality with Pierre and stuck in 2005 applies to all Sox fans. Thanks. They know Pierre's grindy antics better than you.

You're falling back on stats to support your argument. Any stat, by definition, is "calculator work."

(Well, for me it is, because I can't do long division in my head. :redface: )

Anyway, you're using numbers to try to describe what happens on a baseball field. Baseball is much more than numbers, my friend. Put away your calculator and watch the game!

Thome has had three seasons where he's scored as many or more runs than Pierre's best run scoring season. One was 1996 with Cleveland, in a murder's row lineup that also included Manny Ramirez, Albert Belle, Eddie Murray and Omar Vizquel! The second was 2003, when he knocked himself in 47 times against NL pitching in a lineup that also included a .300 hitting Bobby Abreu and a .313 hitting catcher! The third was 2006, hitting in front of Paulie and Dye, a year when BOTH had career years! Nice job setting the context for your glorious stats!

I know you know this, but I also think you choose to leave this out because it detracts from your argument: Thome has more RBIs because he usually hits in the middle of the order, behind the #1 and #2 hitters. Pierre is a leadoff hitter who has played his whole career in the NL, batting behind the pitcher two or three times each game, and behind an NL #8 hitter, who often sucks as well. Leadoff hitters aren't asked to slug the ball, they are asked to get on base (admittedly Pierre isn't the best at this) and to disrupt the opposing pitcher and catcher by stealing bases, or at least threatening to steal. He's also played most of his career in Florida, a huge pitcher's park at sea level, where fly balls go to die. But don't let facts get in the way of some sexy stats!

Can you pocket protector people make a baseball argument that doesn't rely on stats? :tongue:

I even put my teal in bold to make it clear! :tongue:

fquaye149
05-15-2008, 09:32 AM
For a guy with no power, OBP is useful. Since Pierre hits only a handful of doubles and triples and absolutely no home runs, his hits are almost exactly equal to his walks. It shows that though his BA is good, the implied assumption that high BA=high OBP is not true

Calculators? Sure. Same as BA. Only OBP tells you more. about 30% of the time that Pierre's up he gets on base and his .350 SLG shows that of that 30% of the time he gets on base, he's mostly on first.

You obviously love the dude because he seems to represent a mentality that you feel the Sox are lacking. You even compared him to Pods in 2005. But I've got news for you: Pods in 05, no matter how you feel about whether he was overrated (I personally don't think he was overrated) was MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Pierre's been the last 3 years.

But point fingers at us statheads who don't understand the game, because we're relying on a stat that is essentially the exact same as the stat you're relying on. Only better.

In terms of your post about the many different ways Pierre can score, you're right. But the problem is, that advantage doesn't make up for the FACT that Thome (when he's not biting ass) gets on base nearly 10% more of the time than Pierre (when Pierre's not playing aberrantly out of his mind).

Even if we say that these advanced ways of scoring equals a 5-10% advantage (which is a huge huge huge huge stretch, given that Pierre's run scored aren't, in any given year, greater than Thome's) that's still, at best a wash. And since that's a huge huge stretch, it's not a ****ing wash.

Pierre, this year, at BEST represents a no gain over a ****ty Thome, and at worst represents almost no production at a position whose only function is offensive production

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 10:14 AM
In terms of your post about the many different ways Pierre can score, you're right. But the problem is, that advantage doesn't make up for the FACT that Thome (when he's not biting ass) gets on base nearly 10% more of the time than Pierre (when Pierre's not playing aberrantly out of his mind).

Even if we say that these advanced ways of scoring equals a 5-10% advantage (which is a huge huge huge huge stretch, given that Pierre's run scored aren't, in any given year, greater than Thome's) that's still, at best a wash. And since that's a huge huge stretch, it's not a ****ing wash.

Pierre, this year, at BEST represents a no gain over a ****ty Thome, and at worst represents almost no production at a position whose only function is offensive production

The problem is that the Sox offense is suffering the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Because they are not quantified, you minimize:

The value of speed in taking extra bases when the stronger 2-3-4-5 hitters come up to bat behind the leadoff hitter;

The value of the stolen base - even the threat of the stolen base - in rattling the pitcher and the catcher;

How much easier it is to score when you only need one more hit, instead of needing a triple or a homer, or multiple hits.

It's not a huge stretch. It's not a wash.

The real problem is that Thome is sucking right now, and he's getting older, and he's prone to nagging back injuries. You seem certain he will snap out of it. I'm not convinced. Pierre, OTOH, is rock solid. He's never been injured. He hardly ever misses a game. He's always stealing bases and disrupting the opposing team.

What would his stats look like if we recorded every stolen base as a double (and to be fair, reduce his stats when he gets picked off or caught stealing)? And if we recorded as a double the number of times he reached second on an overthrown pickoff attempt? What would his stats look like if we added to his batting average or OBP every time the hitter batting behind him got a hit because he got a fastball down the middle? Or snuck a single through the hole on the right side of the infield?

Good grief, how much more productive would the fastball power hitters on this team be if they got a steady diet of fastballs during the 33% of the time when Pierre was on base? How many fewer sliders in the dirt would they get? Where are your stats to quantify that?

Because these things are not quantified, you dismiss them as a "huge stretch" or a "wash." Not everything can be quantified. Here's an analogy:

Thome is a behemoth, V-16 powered, 1000-horsepower diesel semi truck, in a lineup full of semi trucks. When they are all firing on all cylinders and headed in the same direction, that convoy is a beautiful sight. But when something goes wrong, it's a giant pileup on the Tri-State and no one can get home.

Pierre is a crotch rocket. Fast, well-tuned, nimble, able to get around roadblocks and tight turns. He can't carry much cargo or even many passengers. But he runs, runs, runs and gets home pretty regularly with not a lot of effort having to be expended by others.

With AL pitching being so strong, the ability to manufacture a run when the homers are not flying is even more vital!

Jjav829
05-15-2008, 10:31 AM
Frater, it's funny how someone who is such a huge Frank fan, and has made many numerous unrealistic arguments for Frank to stay with, or come back to the Sox has now become a proponent of the "base clogger" argument. You do realize that Frank is arguably the biggest "base clogger" in baseball now?

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 10:41 AM
Frater, it's funny how someone who is such a huge Frank fan, and has made many numerous unrealistic arguments for Frank to stay with, or come back to the Sox has now become a proponent of the "base clogger" argument. You do realize that Frank is arguably the biggest "base clogger" in baseball now?

It's all about context, Jjav.

It's not that Thome is a base-clogger. It's that he's a base-clogger on a team filled with them; a team that has zero speed.

Again, if the Sox had a bunch of speedy slappers, I'd advocate trading one of them to make space FOR Thome (or Thomas, or any other power hitter).

What do the Sox have in abundance? Power. What do they lack? A leadoff hitter.

Oh, and for the record, I've not advocated that Frank be brought back to the Sox now. That train has sailed. At the time (05-06 offseason), I wished he could have been retained, and when he hit so well in 2006 and 2007, I lamented that he had not been kept. That's not the same as calling for him to be brought back now, which I've never done.

But I'm glad you're entertained by your hyperbolic mischaracterizations and mishmashing of my arguments. :tongue:

fquaye149
05-15-2008, 10:43 AM
The problem is that the Sox offense is suffering the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Because they are not quantified, you minimize:

The value of speed in taking extra bases when the stronger 2-3-4-5 hitters come up to bat behind the leadoff hitter;

But the problem is, Pierre doesn't hit for extra bases often. Like 40 times a year.


The value of the stolen base - even the threat of the stolen base - in rattling the pitcher and the catcher;This is true, but if you're not on base, SB's don't do anything. If you have a guy making outs 70% of the time, there's very few opportunities to get in the pitchers's head. This is why a guy like Pods in 2005 was very valuable (on base 35% of the time) but a guy like Pierre in 2005 is not valuable (on base 30% of the time)


How much easier it is to score when you only need one more hit, instead of needing a triple or a homer, or multiple hits. Sure, except he's never on base, and rarely on second or third even when he is on base.


It's not a huge stretch. It's not a wash.Except that it is a huge stretch when you have a mediocre player like Pierre. And at BEST it's a wash.


The real problem is that Thome is sucking right now, and he's getting older, and he's prone to nagging back injuries. You seem certain he will snap out of it. I'm not convinced. Pierre, OTOH, is rock solid. He's never been injured. He hardly ever misses a game. He's always stealing bases and disrupting the opposing team.Thome does suck, but that doesn't mean you should replace him with someone who also sucks. Pierre doesn't miss many games, but he also doesn't produce much when he DOES play.


What would his stats look like if we recorded every stolen base as a double (and to be fair, reduce his stats when he gets picked off or caught stealing)? And if we recorded as a double the number of times he reached second on an overthrown pickoff attempt? What would his stats look like if we added to his batting average or OBP every time the hitter batting behind him got a hit because he got a fastball down the middle? Or snuck a single through the hole on the right side of the infield?
Good question. Let's look at 2005:

181-17 (H-CS)= 164 H
19+57 (2B+SB) = 76 2B
13 3B
3 HR
72 1B
41 BB
678 AB
BA= H/AB= 164/678= .241 (actual BA=.276
OBP~ (H+BB)/(AB+BB)= (164+41)/(678+41)=205/719=.285 (real OBP=.326)
SLG= [1(1B)+2(2B)+3(3B)+4(HR)]/AB= (72+152+39+12)/678=.405

So even adjusting for SB, assuming that SB= XB and CS= -H, his OPS is a pretty eh-worthy .690


Good grief, how much more productive would the fastball power hitters on this team be if they got a steady diet of fastballs during the 33% of the time when Pierre was on base? How many fewer sliders in the dirt would they get? Where are your stats to quantify that?You assume too much. You assume a jerkbag like I-Rod is calling fastball to pad his CS stats. That doesn't always happen and though pitchers may be rattled by base stealers, they may also not be. I haven't heard any testimony or evidence (except from those predisposed to support basestealers) that SB threats make that much of a difference to a pitcher's mentality (unless of course a jerkweed like I-Rod is selfishly calling pitches)


Because these things are not quantified, you dismiss them as a "huge stretch" or a "wash."That's not true. I dismiss them as a huge stretch or a wash because what I know about baseball from actually playing it, combined with what the statistics tell me cause me to believe that a lousy hitter like Pierre is not the guy to get for your DH spot, even though he can steal a few bases.


Not everything can be quantified. Here's an analogy:

Thome is a behemoth, V-16 powered, 1000-horsepower diesel semi truck, in a lineup full of semi trucks. When they are all firing on all cylinders and headed in the same direction, that convoy is a beautiful sight. But when something goes wrong, it's a giant pileup on the Tri-State and no one can get home.

Pierre is a crotch rocket. Fast, well-tuned, nimble, able to get around roadblocks and tight turns. He can't carry much cargo or even many passengers. But he runs, runs, runs and gets home pretty regularly with not a lot of effort having to be expended by others.Except you forget the fact that the crotch rocket doesn't run well (i.e. get on base). If you were talking about Dave Roberts or Rickey Henderson, or Ichiro or even Pods in 2005, a guy who can get on base a substantial amount AND be a SB threat, then your analogy can hold water. But Pierre tries to steal 1B, and mostly is unsucessful.

He just plain sucks at hitting...or at least, he has the last 3 years. He's a slap hitter and even though the slaps sometimes fall, they don't fall enough to justify him, as a guy for whom a BB WOULD be a threat for a 2B, DOESN'T WALK.


With AL pitching being so strong, the ability to manufacture a run when the homers are not flying is even more vital!I guess. But the problem is, you need to get on base to manufacture a run. If Pierre got on base, I'd be all for him (and I guess, to an extent he has been getting on base this year). However, the last 3 years he has been pathetically bad at getting on base. How do you manufacture a run with the #2 hitter up, no one on base, and one out, something that happens nearly 70% of the time when Pierre has led off the last 3 years?

You want to manufacture runs, but you're advocating putting a guy in the leadoff spot who will leave the 2 hitter with no one on, one out NEARLY 70% of the time?

Sorry dude, it's a stretch and a wash, at best

Jjav829
05-15-2008, 10:49 AM
It's all about context, Jjav.

It's not that Thome is a base-clogger. It's that he's a base-clogger on a team filled with them; a team that has zero speed.

Again, if the Sox had a bunch of speedy slappers, I'd advocate trading one of them to make space FOR Thome (or Thomas, or any other power hitter).

What do the Sox have in abundance? Power. What do they lack? A leadoff hitter.

Oh, and for the record, I've not advocated that Frank be brought back to the Sox now. That train has sailed. At the time (05-06 offseason), I wished he could have been retained, and when he hit so well in 2006 and 2007, I lamented that he had not been kept. That's not the same as calling for him to be brought back now, which I've never done.

But I'm glad you're entertained by your hyperbolic mischaracterizations and mishmashing of my arguments. :tongue:

I know your arguments. I just find it a bit ironic that someone whose favorite player is one of the best on-base guys of all time (and who was never a burner on the bases) believes that getting on-base and not having speed means you're "clogging the bases." That's all. :smile:

russ99
05-15-2008, 11:19 AM
Yikes. Cut Thome and deal Uribe for Juan Pierre?!?!?

Rush Getz to the majors and possibly have him ride the pine behind Richar, and send Ramirez down? That would hurt Getz a whole lot more than it would help Ramirez. Besides, I'm convinced Alexei could put up better numbers than Uribe in everything but HRs if he played 2B every day...

Who slipped something into the Kool-Aid? :D:

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 11:26 AM
not on base

but a guy like Pierre in 2005 is not valuable (on base 30% of the time)

Sure, except he's never on base,

doesn't run well (i.e. get on base).

He just plain sucks at hitting...

pathetically bad at getting on base.

Now you are relying on hyperbole to make your argument.

You've chosen 2005 as a representative year for Pierre. That was his WORST season for batting average and OBP. That's like judging Paul Konerko's career on his 2003 season. Yet still, in 2005, his worst year, Pierre still was on base 32.6% of the time. That's closer to Pods' 35.1% in 2005 than the 30% (or "never") figure you keep citing.

Pierre's career average is .301. His career OBP is .348.

For the past three seasons, his average is .276, .292, .293. This year he's batting .293. It's obvious 2005 was the outlier.

For the past three seasons, his OBP is .326, .330, .331. This year he's .364. It's obvious, in fairness, that this year is the outlier.

Still, he's on base 33% of the time, not "not on base," not "never" on base, not "plain sucks at hitting," not "pathetically bad at getting on base."

Adjusted for a full, 162-game season (which Pods rarely plays), Pods would average 56 walks. Pierre walks 41 times in a 162-game season. That's 15 stinking walks. That's less than one walk per week over a season!

So let's look at strikeouts. Pierre Ks 39 times in a full season. Pods Ks 98 times in a full season! That's 2.5 times as many strikeouts for Pods! That's more than two more strikeouts per week over a season.

Look at their career total bases. Pods has about 222 total bases in a season. Pierre has about 245 total bases in a season. Despite walking less, Pierre is good for about one more base per week than Pods over a season.

By these measures, Pierre is a better leadoff hitter than Pods!

fquaye149
05-15-2008, 11:31 AM
Now you are relying on hyperbole to make your argument.

You've chosen 2005 as a representative year for Pierre. That was his WORST season for batting average and OBP. That's like judging Paul Konerko's career on his 2003 season. Yet still, in 2005, his worst year, Pierre still was on base 32.6% of the time. That's closer to Pods' 35.1% in 2005 than the 30% (or "never") figure you keep citing.

Pierre's career average is .301. His career OBP is .348.

For the past three seasons, his average is .276, .292, .293. This year he's batting .293. It's obvious 2005 was the outlier.

For the past three seasons, his OBP is .326, .330, .331. This year he's .364. It's obvious, in fairness, that this year is the outlier.

Still, he's on base 33% of the time, not "not on base," not "never" on base, not "plain sucks at hitting," not "pathetically bad at getting on base."

Adjusted for a full, 162-game season (which Pods rarely plays), Pods would average 56 walks. Pierre walks 41 times in a 162-game season. That's 15 stinking walks. That's less than one walk per week over a season!

So let's look at strikeouts. Pierre Ks 39 times in a full season. Pods Ks 98 times in a full season! That's 2.5 times as many strikeouts for Pods! That's more than two more strikeouts per week over a season.

Look at their career total bases. Pods has about 222 total bases in a season. Pierre has about 245 total bases in a season. Despite walking less, Pierre is good for about one more base per week than Pods over a season.

By these measures, Pierre is a better leadoff hitter than Pods!

Except, it's just as hyperbolic to talk about career OBP as if that's representative of the player he is.

27, 28, 29. Those were his ages in 2005, 2006, and 2007 (btw 2005 is NOT his worst year--2006 AND 2007 were worse given he played 2005 in a pitcher's park). His last 3 years, as he passes prime age have been lousy. That's a much better indicator of who he is as a hitter.

If you want to use career stats, as if a guy who started well and has had THREE STRAIGHT AWFUL YEARS should be judged by this, I guess we can't expect rationality from you. :shrug:

Furthermore, you talk about Pods like I'm trying to argue that as a player he's valuable. No. I'm talking about one specific year when he was valuable. Notice the part where I said "Pods in 2005"? But go ahead, keep missing the point.

Keep talking about Pierre's career numbers as if he's not coming off 3 embarrassing seasons at a past-his-prime age.

Go on talking about Pods as if comparing Pierre favorably to Pods career ISN'T an indictment of Pierre in and of itself.

Pierre, in the past three years, has made outs in 67.5%, 67%, and 66.9% of his at bats respectively. That's all there is to say. You talk about a guy "manufacturing runs" by what he does on base, and yet you are talking about a player who, as the player he has become, is making outs MUCH MORE OFTEN THAN NOT--more than 2/3's of the time.

Let's apply the rigors of 2005 to 2006, when Pierre hit a "more impressive to Frater .292"

204-20 (H-CS)= 184 H
32+58 (2B+SB) = 80 2B
13 3B
3 HR
136 1B
32 BB
699 AB
BA= H/AB= 184/699= .263(actual BA=.292
OBP~ (H+BB)/(AB+BB)= (184+32)/(699+32)=216/731=.295(real OBP=.330)
SLG= [1(1B)+2(2B)+3(3B)+4(HR)]/AB= (136+160+39+12)/699=.496 (actual SLG=.388)

A stil unimpressive OPS of 826

spiffie
05-15-2008, 11:55 AM
One thing to keep in mind when trying to grasp the impact of Podsednik's 2005 is to remember that the three months when the Sox played out of their minds (April-June) is when Pods wasn't hitting just a 350 OBP. On 6/25/05 Pods was hitting 295 with a 374 OBP, 38 SB and 9 CS and a 720 OPS.

If you want to use the adjustments that were used earlier in the thread for Pierre, then Pods was at a line of 257/340/468 for an adjusted OPS of 808. And during that time the Sox went 50-23 (.685). After that Pods started to slip, and the Sox did as well, going 49-40 (.550), as Pods only put up a line of 285/329/352/681 with 21 SB and 14 CS. Adjusted he put up a line of 233/280/376/656.

For a player like Pods or Pierre to truly maximize their effect they need to be playing excellent ball, when all you can bring is speed. When Pods was bringing high OBP and a high success rate at stealing he was a force, and the team success reflects that. When he slipped just a little, his performance became much less valuable, and again the team's record reflected it.

If I thought Juan Pierre could do what he's done the first 6 weeks of the season for anothet 2-3 years I might say he's a good pickup. But considering what he has done the previous three years, he's not worth the money, and assuming Swisher returns to his career norms Pierre is not an improvement over any current OF.

jabrch
05-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Jim Thome's nice OBP looks nice on paper, but a lot of it is totally worthless. When Thome walks, there aren't many ways to score him, and they all require a lot of things to "go right" (we'll leave HBPs and errors out of the equation):

Three more walks
A single and two walks
Two singles and a walk
Three singles
A single and a double
A home run or a triple

In addition, a Jim Thome walk never scores a run unless the bases already are loaded.

But when Pierre gets on base, more often via a single than via a walk, these are the ADDITIONAL ways he can score:

Two singles
One double
A walk and a single
A steal, a bunt and a sac fly
A steal, a bunt and a single
A steal, a grounder to the right side, and a sac fly
A steal, a grounder to the right side, and a single
A steal and a single
A steal and a double
Two steals and a sac fly
Two steals and a single

Tell me again how valuable Thome's extra walks are, when it takes so many positive outcomes to score him after he's walked?

The bottom line is that because Thome is so slow, and because it takes so much to score him, his walks really are not all that helpful!

Pierre does not walk as much, and isn't on base as much, but because there are so many more ways he can score when he is on base, and because not as much has to "go right" for him to score, each time he's on base he's more likely to score!

In addition, his speed helps the hitter at the plate because it forces the opposing team to:

1. Have the pitcher throw from the stretch
2. Have the pitcher throw more fastballs
3. Have the 1B to play at the bag, making big hole between 1B & 2B
4. Have the pitcher throw to 1B, causing a distraction
5. Have the catcher worried about the steal and more likely to make a mistake

Finally, Pierre's critics many criticize the number of times he's caught stealing, but how many times is a Thome walk followed up with a GIDP, in part because Thome is so slow? Pierre is much less likely to run into a GIDP because he's so fast on the basepaths! I'll take the caught stealing. You can keep your miserable GIDPs.

Why is it so hard to understand that World Series are not won with calculators and pocket protectors! :kukoo:


That's just an awesome post Frater....very nice job.

By no means is anyone saying Pierre is a great leadoff hitter. But he does do some things well. And he does fit in well in the right spot, if no better alternative exists.

If we had someone leading off effectively, who was slower, I'd be fine with that. But at this point in time, we don't. Now we don't have Pierre either, so this is an academic discussion - but that's what most of this is.

Pierre is no Grady Sizemore - but he's a more effective leadoff hitter than anyone who we have tried in that role this year.

jabrch
05-15-2008, 12:49 PM
I know your arguments. I just find it a bit ironic that someone whose favorite player is one of the best on-base guys of all time (and who was never a burner on the bases) believes that getting on-base and not having speed means you're "clogging the bases." That's all. :smile:


If we could get a team of 9 Frank Thomas' I don't think anyone would mind it. But we can't... I really don't believe Frater is saying he'd take Pierre over Frank - but I'll leave that to him. All he is saying is that this team could use what Pierre does. He hits close to .300, steals bases and does those things that a traditional leadoff hitter does.

No - he isn't the best option.

But he's not nearly as bad as some calculators make him look.

jabrch
05-15-2008, 12:54 PM
Adjusted for a full, 162-game season (which Pods rarely plays), Pods would average 56 walks. Pierre walks 41 times in a 162-game season. That's 15 stinking walks. That's less than one walk per week over a season!

Which translates to about a half a run per week and about a dozen runs per season.

voodoochile
05-15-2008, 01:02 PM
A stil unimpressive OPS of 826

826 OPS is unimpressive? Isn't that roughly a ~115 OPS+ (including pitchers)

For all CF it's still a 112 OPS+.

For leadoff hitters its 117 OPS+.

I'd be happy with an OPS of .826 from our leadoff hitter - it's what we were hoping for from Swisher this season.

I think you goofed your numbers and the OPS you meant is about 30 points lower ~ 796 which is still well above average for both CF and leadoff.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 01:18 PM
I really don't believe Frater is saying he'd take Pierre over Frank - but I'll leave that to him. All he is saying is that this team could use what Pierre does. He hits close to .300, steals bases and does those things that a traditional leadoff hitter does.

No - he isn't the best option.

But he's not nearly as bad as some calculators make him look.

Yes, yes, and yes!

Given the circumstances of how this lineup is constructed at present, I'd rather have a DH who can do what Pierre does than a DH who is doing what Thome is doing right now.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 01:19 PM
Pierre is no Grady Sizemore - but he's a more effective leadoff hitter than anyone who we have tried in that role this year.

Great statement.

kittle42
05-15-2008, 01:22 PM
Juan Pierre is a very valuable 1-2 category player in fantasy baseball.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 01:24 PM
Juan Pierre is a very valuable 1-2 category player in fantasy baseball.

Kind of like Jim Thome? :tongue:

jabrch
05-15-2008, 01:43 PM
Juan Pierre is a very valuable 1-2 category player in fantasy baseball.

He also has real value in baseball as well. He can hit for average, and he can steal bases. He doesn't miss the ball much. He can handle the bat, move runners, etc.

Nobody will confuse him with Rickey Henderson. But I still don't get why so many people seem to think he is no more valuable to the team than Florence Henderson.

kittle42
05-15-2008, 01:45 PM
He also has real value in baseball as well. He can hit for average, and he can steal bases. He doesn't miss the ball much. He can handle the bat, move runners, etc.

Nobody will confuse him with Rickey Henderson. But I still don't get why so many people seem to think he is no more valuable to the team than Florence Henderson.

He'd be a good replacement for Andy Gonzalez or some such player, I'll give you that.

spiffie
05-15-2008, 01:47 PM
Fun fact: Last year Juan Pierre had the same # of GIDP as Jim Thome.

voodoochile
05-15-2008, 01:54 PM
He'd be a good replacement for Andy Gonzalez or some such player, I'll give you that.

I'm sorry, but that's just patently ridiculous. Pierre is a starter on 25 MLB teams

sox1970
05-15-2008, 02:08 PM
Given a choice, I'd take Pierre over Thome. Get Richar up here in July for 2B, and the Sox could contend in the second half. I'd take my chances with this lineup:

Cabrera
Pierzynski
Quentin
Konerko
Swisher
Dye
Crede
Richar
Pierre

kittle42
05-15-2008, 02:14 PM
I'm sorry, but that's just patently ridiculous. Pierre is a starter on 25 MLB teams

He shouldn't even be a starter on his own team. And I wouldn't start him over any of the Sox' 3 OF.

munchman33
05-15-2008, 02:19 PM
He'd be a good replacement for Andy Gonzalez or some such player, I'll give you that.

:rolleyes:

munchman33
05-15-2008, 02:23 PM
He shouldn't even be a starter on his own team. And I wouldn't start him over any of the Sox' 3 OF.

What the heck are you talking about. The Dodgers are about the only team who's outfield he shouldn't make. The guy has some great tools. Just because he doesn't flash the long stick, walk a lot, or have a gun doesn't mean he isn't a very useful player. What he does do (speed, contact, directional hitting/bunting, getting to fly balls), he does pretty much better than most of the league. And certainly better than anyone on OUR roster.

Lillian
05-15-2008, 02:27 PM
Many of you have drawn the parallels to Pods, and his first half performance in 2005. I think the manner in which he was acquired also fits what Frater is suggesting. We gave up an expensive power hitter, Carlos Lee, for him for many of the same reasons that Frater pointed out.

This move doesn't have to be for Pierre. Who else is out there whom we could get for one of our power hitters?

champagne030
05-15-2008, 02:31 PM
He shouldn't even be a starter on his own team. And I wouldn't start him over any of the Sox' 3 OF.

:yup: There's really only a handful of teams who he should start for and we are not one of them.

spiffie
05-15-2008, 02:40 PM
What the heck are you talking about. The Dodgers are about the only team who's outfield he shouldn't make. The guy has some great tools. Just because he doesn't flash the long stick, walk a lot, or have a gun doesn't mean he isn't a very useful player. What he does do (speed, contact, directional hitting/bunting, getting to fly balls), he does pretty much better than most of the league. And certainly better than anyone on OUR roster.
Most of his contact leads to outs though. His ability to make a weak ground out versus striking out doesn't really increase his value to me, and I fail to see why so many people fixate on the fact that he doesn't K much. Great, he hits the ball most of the time. Almost every time he gets a hit it lands him on first base, and most of the time he hits the ball it ends up as an out.

Last year Pierre has 19 bunt hits. He had 20 sacrifice bunts. He put the ball in play on a bunt 66 times. So just barely over 50% of the time was he successful at doing anything with a bunt. Hell, Jerry Owens had 9 bunt hits and 3 sac bunts last year out of 25 attempts. So okay, Juan is as good at bunting as Jerry Owens. And he costs 27.5 times more.

kittle42
05-15-2008, 02:41 PM
What the heck are you talking about. The Dodgers are about the only team who's outfield he shouldn't make. The guy has some great tools. Just because he doesn't flash the long stick, walk a lot, or have a gun doesn't mean he isn't a very useful player. What he does do (speed, contact, directional hitting/bunting, getting to fly balls), he does pretty much better than most of the league. And certainly better than anyone on OUR roster.

OK. I'd start him in Atlanta, Cubs, Cleveland, Florida, Oakland, SD, SF, Texas, Washington.

I guess that is quite a few teams. An argument could be made for several others, too.

fquaye149
05-15-2008, 02:46 PM
What the heck are you talking about. The Dodgers are about the only team who's outfield he shouldn't make. The guy has some great tools. Just because he doesn't flash the long stick, walk a lot, or have a gun doesn't mean he isn't a very useful player. What he does do (speed, contact, directional hitting/bunting, getting to fly balls), he does pretty much better than most of the league. And certainly better than anyone on OUR roster.

Nope. And I would question the value of speed and contact when every other part of his offensive game is awful (i.e. GETTING ON BASE)

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 02:49 PM
SF

Instead of Rowand? :tongue:

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 03:01 PM
Last year Pierre has 19 bunt hits. He had 20 sacrifice bunts. He put the ball in play on a bunt 66 times. So just barely over 50% of the time was he successful at doing anything with a bunt. Hell, Jerry Owens had 9 bunt hits and 3 sac bunts last year out of 25 attempts. So okay, Juan is as good at bunting as Jerry Owens. And he costs 27.5 times more.

You stat guys sure like to round up or round down depending on your argument! I admire your tenacity, if not your fuzzy math! :tongue:

39/66 = 54.5% That's a little more than "barely over 50%." 54.5 to 45.5 is almost landslide in an election, and the difference between 54.5 and "barely over 50%" is more than the amount fquaye149 was rounding down when understating Pierre's OBP.

Back to the point: How many of those groundouts were swinging bunts that advanced a runner, but don't get recorded as sacrifices? How many of those groundouts were to the right side of the infield that advanced a runner, but didn't get recorded as a sacrifice? Those kinds of groundouts ARE much more productive than strikeouts, popouts, or sharp grounders right into the shift that become GIDPs.

Craig Grebeck
05-15-2008, 03:14 PM
You stat guys sure like to round up or round down depending on your argument! I admire your tenacity, if not your fuzzy math! :tongue:

39/66 = 54.5% That's a little more than "barely over 50%." 54.5 to 45.5 is almost landslide in an election, and the difference between 54.5 and "barely over 50%" is more than the amount fquaye149 was rounding down when understating Pierre's OBP.

Back to the point: How many of those groundouts were swinging bunts that advanced a runner, but don't get recorded as sacrifices? How many of those groundouts were to the right side of the infield that advanced a runner, but didn't get recorded as a sacrifice? Those kinds of groundouts ARE much more productive than strikeouts, popouts, or sharp grounders right into the shift that become GIDPs.

Fun fact: Last year Juan Pierre had the same # of GIDP as Jim Thome.
!

spiffie
05-15-2008, 03:33 PM
You stat guys sure like to round up or round down depending on your argument! I admire your tenacity, if not your fuzzy math! :tongue:

39/66 = 54.5% That's a little more than "barely over 50%." 54.5 to 45.5 is almost landslide in an election, and the difference between 54.5 and "barely over 50%" is more than the amount fquaye149 was rounding down when understating Pierre's OBP.

Back to the point: How many of those groundouts were swinging bunts that advanced a runner, but don't get recorded as sacrifices? How many of those groundouts were to the right side of the infield that advanced a runner, but didn't get recorded as a sacrifice? Those kinds of groundouts ARE much more productive than strikeouts, popouts, or sharp grounders right into the shift that become GIDPs.
To me when working in an environment of 0-100% the difference between 50 and 54.5% is minimal. Especially when dealing with something that has such a limited range of outcomes as a bunt attempt. For me to look at his bunting as some sort of special skill that merits consideration as offsetting his negatives, it would have to be significantly stronger than 1 out of every 2 times.

As to the last part, you're now getting into trying to parse out every single AB the guy has. I don't know, even if I do know he did have the same amount of GIDP's last year as the guy who hits those sharp grounders right into shift.

And when you're recycling the arguments people used for Darin Erstad last year (he makes good outs!) it is not encouraging.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 04:21 PM
He did have the same amount of GIDP's last year as the guy who hits those sharp grounders right into shift.

Who hits in front of Juan Pierre? Pitchers and #8 hitters. They often cannot run well.

Who hits in front of Jim Thome? #1 and #2 hitters. Last year, that was Pods, Iguchi, Erstad and Fields, who all can run the bases well.

All things being equal, Pierre should GIDP a lot MORE than Thome, because Pierre puts the bat on the ball more than Thome. The fact that they have the same GIDP stats actually is a plus for Pierre considering the circumstances.

spiffie
05-15-2008, 04:50 PM
Who hits in front of Juan Pierre? Pitchers and #8 hitters. They often cannot run well.

Who hits in front of Jim Thome? #1 and #2 hitters. Last year, that was Pods, Iguchi, Erstad and Fields, who all can run the bases well.

All things being equal, Pierre should GIDP a lot MORE than Thome, because Pierre puts the bat on the ball more than Thome. The fact that they have the same GIDP stats actually is a plus for Pierre considering the circumstances.
Actually most of his GIDP last year were with Rafael Furcal on 1st base. Only 2 of them were with a pitcher on 1st. Last year he only led off 31 games. He was in the 2 hole 123 times.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Actually most of his GIDP last year were with Rafael Furcal on 1st base. Only 2 of them were with a pitcher on 1st. Last year he only led off 31 games. He was in the 2 hole 123 times.

I stand corrected.

But I stand behind this comment:

All things being equal, Pierre should GIDP a lot MORE than Thome, because Pierre puts the bat on the ball more than Thome. The fact that they have the same GIDP stats actually is a plus for Pierre considering the circumstances.

TheVulture
05-19-2008, 12:46 AM
What's the point in unloading someone for the sole purpose of a salary dump if there's no improvement in the lineup and the players in question contracts are up at the end of the year? Are KW's hands even tied? I wasn't aware the sox were financially strapped.

Cabrera and Uribe have combined for 2 errors this year. You can't beat that with a stick.

jabrch
05-19-2008, 11:17 AM
Cabrera and Uribe have combined for 2 errors this year. You can't beat that with a stick.

I'm sure someone can find something to complain about...

I've been pleased with much of our defense. Crede has had a weak start compared to his history. JD is degrading a bit. AJ/Toby are liabilities. But PK is solid (he has come a long way from where he was 5 years ago) The MI have been pretty good at turning the DP. Swish/CQ have been fine.

We won't get any GGs this year; and we won't deserve one either - but we have played OK.

That said, we could always do better.

kittle42
05-19-2008, 11:30 AM
Are KW's hands even tied? I wasn't aware the sox were financially strapped.

Having only 50 cents, the club was forced to cancel its Trib subscription when the price rose to 75 cents.