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View Full Version : Is it time to start to worry about Buerhle?


WhiteSox5187
05-12-2008, 11:39 PM
So this has been another bad start for Buerhle (six runs through five innings). Now, I should state for the record that I haven't been watching the game (damn finals) but this is the second bad start in a row for Buerhle...is it still too early to worry? Has he run into some bad luck or has he just been bad?

DumpJerry
05-12-2008, 11:41 PM
The short answer- No.

The drawn out answer- Nope.

Beer Can Chicken
05-12-2008, 11:44 PM
So this has been another bad start for Buerhle (six runs through five innings). Now, I should state for the record that I haven't been watching the game (damn finals) but this is the second bad start in a row for Buerhle...is it still too early to worry? Has he run into some bad luck or has he just been bad?

I think Buerhle has always been this way, sometimes he gives up hits, sometimes he doesn't. So it goes with pitchers that aren't overpowering and have sometimes questionable defense behind them.
Though it does seem that since 2006, he's been a one-half a season pitcher.

Lefty34
05-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Just bad, IMO.

From what I have seen (which, thanks to recent finals and job searching, is not all that much) he needs to start locating his pitches better and make better use of his changeup. I have seen many of his breaking balls left over the plate to be whacked, whether they were poorly spotted or an attempted back-door that crept too far in.

IMO these are things he can work on and, once he finds his groove again, we will see the Buerhle of old. So no, it's not time to worry. Time to get him some extra pen sessions and short-pens? Yes, but no reason to go to DEFCON 2.

BadBobbyJenks
05-12-2008, 11:50 PM
Calm down. Mark Buehrle will be the last guy I start to worry about.

sox1970
05-12-2008, 11:50 PM
Who's Mark Buerhle?

soltrain21
05-12-2008, 11:52 PM
I've been worried about him since last year.

WhiteSox5187
05-12-2008, 11:53 PM
I don't know if I'd say that Buerhle's been a one half pitcher, he certainly was in '06 but I think that's because he (and everyone else on the staff) were gassed from '05. '07 is hard to judge though because how many times did the bullpen blow leads? His ERA was I think his second lowest ERA on record...'07 was just a bad year all around. But I thought he looked as good at the end as he did at the beginning.

Tragg
05-12-2008, 11:53 PM
This ace middle infield of Uribe and Cabrera makes just about what MB makes....we could replace them for a million aggregate.
That's a far bigger problem.

Gammons Peter
05-13-2008, 12:00 AM
I can't stand watching him pitch.

veeter
05-13-2008, 12:04 AM
No.

sox1970
05-13-2008, 12:05 AM
I can't stand watching him pitch.

He's this year's Jose Contreras.

It's also a good time to point out that Mark Buehrle is not, never has been, and never will be a staff ace.

I love the guy, but an ace who gets spotted 3 runs against a rookie always wins--or at least should.

I_Liked_Manuel
05-13-2008, 12:09 AM
It's also a good time to point out that Mark Buehrle is not, never has been, and never will be a staff ace.

you're going to ruffle some feathers with that - i've never gotten much support when i've tossed that out there.

Frontman
05-13-2008, 12:12 AM
The only thing to worry about Mark is when he walks into Kenny and/or Ozzie's office this season to ask for a trade. And after how this team has let him down AGAIN behind him (third game in a row that Mark has been let down by his defense;) as well as the top 1-4 in tonight's lineup not knowing how to get a freakin' hit; I wouldn't blame him if he did.

Tonight he was roughed up, but "Gold Glove Shortstop" Orlando Cabrerra, "Sign him now" Joe Crede, and "Don't get mad at me, I drew a walk tonight" Juan Uribe screwed any chance Mark had to keep the Sox in the game. Those 3 can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care; as its just BASIC BASEBALL to get in front of it, block/catch it; throw to flamin' first base. The 2008/09 off-season couldn't arrive fast enough for me to see those three gone; that's how POed I am after watching ANOTHER night of watching them play like they were in a t-ball league.

Sweet cream on an ice cream sandwich was that horsehockey baseball tonight. That was pure garbage, and the Sox do not deserve to win this game; even if they do come back. (Which I highly doubt.)

QCIASOXFAN
05-13-2008, 12:14 AM
Not really worried.... starting to get very concerned though. I guess that means I'm worried then lol.

Parrothead
05-13-2008, 12:16 AM
The short answer- No.

The drawn out answer- Nope.

Disagree, short answer is YES !

Drawn out answer is HELL YES ! A 5.81 ERA is not good and you can't blame that on the defense, lack of run support, wrong color socks, moon in the wrong postion or the ump. MB is not good right now. I would think that the GREAT DON COOPER would have recognized this and fixed him by now since DON knows all.

MB has been a .500 pitcher in the last two years. Right now he is Danny Wright. I would not trust him in any game. He has not earned the right this year for any trust. Simply said, he is done, at least with the Sox.

QCIASOXFAN
05-13-2008, 12:20 AM
Disagree, short answer is YES !

Drawn out answer is HELL YES !

MB has been a .500 pitcher in the last two years. Right now he is Danny Wright. I would not trust him in any big game. He has not earned the right this year for any trust. Simply said, he is done, at least with the Sox.
I agree with you on Dumpjerrys assessment, but to say he is done as a White Sox is a huge stretch.

soltrain21
05-13-2008, 01:01 AM
The only thing to worry about Mark is when he walks into Kenny and/or Ozzie's office this season to ask for a trade. And after how this team has let him down AGAIN behind him (third game in a row that Mark has been let down by his defense;) as well as the top 1-4 in tonight's lineup not knowing how to get a freakin' hit; I wouldn't blame him if he did.

Tonight he was roughed up, but "Gold Glove Shortstop" Orlando Cabrerra, "Sign him now" Joe Crede, and "Don't get mad at me, I drew a walk tonight" Juan Uribe screwed any chance Mark had to keep the Sox in the game. Those 3 can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care; as its just BASIC BASEBALL to get in front of it, block/catch it; throw to flamin' first base. The 2008/09 off-season couldn't arrive fast enough for me to see those three gone; that's how POed I am after watching ANOTHER night of watching them play like they were in a t-ball league.

Sweet cream on an ice cream sandwich was that horsehockey baseball tonight. That was pure garbage, and the Sox do not deserve to win this game; even if they do come back. (Which I highly doubt.)

Mark needs to pitch over those mistakes.

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 01:05 AM
I'm worried about him because he is a veteran horse and we need him. can't count on those two kids down the stretch. Buehrle has to step up.

I know there is this strong love for him and his career success, but we need to admit the guy is very bad right now.

Why the skipping of his starts a few weeks back I might ask, Is he healthy?

Questions need to be asked.

sox1970
05-13-2008, 01:09 AM
For as bad as Buehrle has been, he is 4-8 in quality starts. He could easily be 3-3 instead of 1-5. I'm not going to hit the panic button on him just yet.

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 01:13 AM
For as bad as Buehrle has been, he is 4-8 in quality starts. He could easily be 3-3 instead of 1-5. I'm not going to hit the panic button on him just yet.


3-3 with a 5.81 ERA then:o:

OK, let's not worry.

sox1970
05-13-2008, 01:15 AM
3-3 with a 5.81 ERA then:o:

OK, let's not worry.

The point is, he's had 4 good starts and 4 bad starts.

He's been known to rattle off 6-8 quality starts in a row. I think he will do that again, and when he does, the ERA will come down.

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 01:16 AM
The point is, he's had 4 good starts and 4 bad starts.

He's been known to rattle off 6-8 quality starts in a row. I think he will do that again, and when he does, the ERA will come down.


I hope you are right because we need him in order to have a prayer to get anywhere.

WhiteSox5187
05-13-2008, 01:22 AM
I hope you are right because we need him in order to have a prayer to get anywhere.
Well, right now the pitching has been pretty good even with Buerhle struggling like this. If Buerhle can turn it around and we can keep pitching like this, I really think we'll be in OK shape.

Domeshot17
05-13-2008, 01:23 AM
The league is catching up to him. He is not a dominating SP that you know what is coming and still can't touch it. He is a crafty guy who made a living out thinking guys and having enough movement and control of his pitches to make up for a lack of pure stuff and velocity.

That said, yes, it is time to worry. The 1-5 could be better, but the ERA and WHIP suck, flat out suck, for a guy making what he makes. He is a leader and great in the clubhouse, but this was a big game for him. His breaking pitches are flat, hitters are not chasing balls out of the zone, he is lacking command, he is not throwing like the Buehrle we loved until 2005. I know his defense has been sketchy behind him, but Vlad crushed that pitch off him. 2 years ago he would have rolled vlad up.

Any smart baseball fan has to be concerned, yes. When a pitcher who lives and dies with command and movement suddenly has neither, you worry a little. After 8 starts you can't just chalk it up to being early. Add the fact he makes 13 mil and the logical answer is anyone saying no is doing so with their heart and not their head. If Javy was getting shelled like this or Jose, people would be all over them.

Lip Man 1
05-13-2008, 01:24 AM
Front:

Points well made but as I mentioned in another thread, Bill Melton on the postgame show said Mark was always able to pitch around mistakes in the past. He's no longer doing that.

Lip

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 01:26 AM
Well, right now the pitching has been pretty good even with Buerhle struggling like this. If Buerhle can turn it around and we can keep pitching like this, I really think we'll be in OK shape.


I agree.

I just can't count on those two kids to all of sudden be Bere and Alvarez from '94.

The McDowells/ Buehrles need to step it up NOW.


We will need him down the stretch, when the pennant race gets hot.

WhiteSox5187
05-13-2008, 01:30 AM
I agree.

I just can't count on those two kids to all of sudden be Bere and Alvarez from '94.

The McDowells/ Buehrles need to step it up NOW.


We will need him down the stretch, when the pennant race gets hot.
I know...if Buerhle starts throwing lights out like he did in '05 (really if he throws like he did LAST YEAR) I'd feel a lot better about the team right now.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 01:33 AM
My only concern right now is that no one knows how to spell "Buehrle" correctly...

Hope Mark can turn it around in his next start; we need him.

areilly
05-13-2008, 02:18 AM
He's this year's Jose Contreras.

It's also a good time to point out that Mark Buehrle is not, never has been, and never will be a staff ace.

I love the guy, but an ace who gets spotted 3 runs against a rookie always wins--or at least should.

you're going to ruffle some feathers with that - i've never gotten much support when i've tossed that out there.

I'm right there with you guys. A solid pitcher? Yes. Asset to any team? Surely. True ace? No, more of a very respectable #2. I would never put him in that elite class of pitcher. Ever. But upper tier for sure when he's on a roll.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 07:13 AM
So Melton said that Buehrle himself thinks it's mental? Ugh.

Still, this defense seems to have let him down more times than in previous seasons. Orlando Cabrera has been a monumental disappointment. Does he remind anyone of Royce Clayton? If we have to tolerate Uribe's bat, I'd much rather have him at short. Yes, he also makes some errors, but he also has more range and a better arm than Cabrera.

Railsplitter
05-13-2008, 07:18 AM
To answer the question, yes.

Frontman
05-13-2008, 07:29 AM
Front:

Points well made but as I mentioned in another thread, Bill Melton on the postgame show said Mark was always able to pitch around mistakes in the past. He's no longer doing that.

Lip

I find it hard to judge, as the mistakes when he's on the mound are increasing; and after a while its hard to say he is or isn't pitching out of them.

As far as Mark even knowing its mental; that's an easy one to understand. Mark is an intelligent "thinking man's" pitcher; meaning he does not rely on being dominant with a certain pitch. Mark also needs to be accurate, and right now he isn't doing that. He knows he's not doing that. He knows his confidence is shot, and he's the only one who can shake that off.

Here's to hoping he can get a win off of those bottom-of-the-barrell Giants on Sunday. If the rotation remains intact, he'll be facing Zito. (Who I thought was re-assigned to the bullpen, but Comcast had him down as starting last night on their ticker.)

oeo
05-13-2008, 07:35 AM
He's this year's Jose Contreras.

It's also a good time to point out that Mark Buehrle is not, never has been, and never will be a staff ace.

I love the guy, but an ace who gets spotted 3 runs against a rookie always wins--or at least should.

Does an ace also get a defense behind him?

I'm not going to make excuses, Mark has been pretty bad. That said, it's been often times when he should be in the dugout, not throwing extra pitches. If anyone on this staff needs the defense, it's Mark, and they just continue to **** up.

oeo
05-13-2008, 07:36 AM
Front:

Points well made but as I mentioned in another thread, Bill Melton on the postgame show said Mark was always able to pitch around mistakes in the past. He's no longer doing that.

Lip

I don't remember Mark ever having to pitch over this many mistakes. It's unbelievable how bad they've been behind him.

kevingrt
05-13-2008, 07:38 AM
Who's Mark Buerhle?

I completely agree!!!

doublem23
05-13-2008, 08:08 AM
I don't think one hit the Angels had against him was hit hard; there was a broken bat blooper, a seeing eye single between Crede and Uribe. It'd be one thing if guys were hitting rockets all over the field, it's entirely different when soft hits are just falling into holes.

Besides, what are we going to do? Call up Lance Broadway? Please. If there's one member of this team who has earned some patience and trust while he works out some things, it's Mark. So please, everyone, shut the hell up.

ms620
05-13-2008, 08:14 AM
Does an ace also get a defense behind him?

I'm not going to make excuses, Mark has been pretty bad. That said, it's been often times when he should be in the dugout, not throwing extra pitches. If anyone on this staff needs the defense, it's Mark, and they just continue to **** up.

The defense has nothing to do with a lead off walk in the bottom of the 2nd after your team just spotted you a 3 run lead. That is what MB cannot do if he wants to be effective. Yes the defense was terrible. Yes most of the early hits were broken bat bloops, but that is not an excuse. Am I worried about him? No. But you know what, I do not consider him a 1 or 2. I consider him a 3 or 4. Clearly Javy is 1. We may not have the typcal 1-5. I think we have 1 number 1, and maybe 4 number 3s. But you know what, that is not a bad thing. MB will have his share of good games, and bad ones. But I really just think we have to stop looking at him as an ace, or even a number 2, and see him for what he is.

KenBerryGrab
05-13-2008, 08:23 AM
Very worried. His K-to-walk ratio is down; his WHIP is up; teams are sitting on the cutter; and he doesn't seem to have a secondary line of attack.

AZChiSoxFan
05-13-2008, 10:30 AM
I don't think one hit the Angels had against him was hit hard; there was a broken bat blooper, a seeing eye single between Crede and Uribe. It'd be one thing if guys were hitting rockets all over the field, it's entirely different when soft hits are just falling into holes.

Besides, what are we going to do? Call up Lance Broadway? Please. If there's one member of this team who has earned some patience and trust while he works out some things, it's Mark. So please, everyone, shut the hell up.

:rolleyes:

Then why even have this site? People can't discuss the fact that MB sucks right now and has sucked since he signed that contract?

doublem23
05-13-2008, 10:38 AM
:rolleyes:

Then why even have this site? People can't discuss the fact that MB sucks right now and has sucked since he signed that contract?

There is a difference between legitimate discussion and kneejerk reaction.

Mark Buehrle will be fine. Stay the course, folks.

JorgeFabregas
05-13-2008, 10:41 AM
His velocity is down like in 2006. I think he's in for a rough season.

soxfan13
05-13-2008, 11:00 AM
There is a difference between legitimate discussion and kneejerk reaction.

Mark Buehrle will be fine. Stay the course, folks.

So how many more years until its not a kneejerk reaction.

chisox59
05-13-2008, 11:20 AM
This is just a theory since I don't get to see nearly as many games as I'd like to so I'll have to depend upon those of you who do to critique this. It doesn't seem like Mark is the same pitcher he was before he hit Travis Hafner in the face. Does he use the inner half of the plate or is everything thrown down the middle and to the outer half and therefore opening up the strike zone to the hitter's delight?

Hitmenof77
05-13-2008, 11:33 AM
I can't believe some of the **** I'm reading in this thread. Blaming other players for the errors. If you're an ace or suppose to be an ace, step it up. Errors happen. Errors didn't happen vs the Twins when the crybaby got rocked for 6-7 runs.

I remember David Wells taking responsibility for giving up that HR to Iguchi, in the 2005 ALDS, saying something like he should have picked up for whoever made that error.

ondafarm
05-13-2008, 11:56 AM
Errors can be more bothersome to some guys at some times in their careers. It doesn't make you a crybaby when you complain about guys not focussing behind you and not getting it done.

About Mark. If there's something goining on in his head that is affecting him, then you try to solve that. Is there something mechanical? I don't know but don't think so. Mark does seem to get more affected by lazy play than errors of comission. A kid who's trying and boots a ball never seemed to bother him as much as a vet who dogs it. I admit, I'm the same way.

If I'd had a million dollars and someone offerred me a bet on which of our starting five pitchers would be most troublesome in mid-May, I'd have lost that million betting on anybody but Buehrle.

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 12:06 PM
It appears there is way too much sentiment on this board to any one who wore a Sox jersey in 2005.

Get it over it guys, call it how it is..... BUEHRLE SUCKS right now.


Will he suck all year is the key question?

God I hope not because I don't think we stand a chance without him being good down the stretch.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 12:07 PM
I can't believe some of the **** I'm reading in this thread. Blaming other players for the errors. If you're an ace or suppose to be an ace, step it up. Errors happen. Errors didn't happen vs the Twins when the crybaby got rocked for 6-7 runs.

I remember David Wells taking responsibility for giving up that HR to Iguchi, in the 2005 ALDS, saying something like he should have picked up for whoever made that error.

So Buehrle is a crybaby now?

Ooooookay...

:?:

doublem23
05-13-2008, 12:27 PM
So how many more years until its not a kneejerk reaction.

I don't know, he did throw a complete game with 0 ER just 11 days ago.

:shrug:

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 12:28 PM
I don't know, he did throw a complete game with 0 ER just 11 days ago.

:shrug:

But what have you done for me lately?

doublem23
05-13-2008, 12:28 PM
I remember David Wells taking responsibility for giving up that HR to Iguchi, in the 2005 ALDS, saying something like he should have picked up for whoever made that error.

Yeah, you're right, everyone here would be far more understanding of Buehrle's slow start if he would just "take responsibility."

Domeshot17
05-13-2008, 12:30 PM
I don't think one hit the Angels had against him was hit hard; there was a broken bat blooper, a seeing eye single between Crede and Uribe. It'd be one thing if guys were hitting rockets all over the field, it's entirely different when soft hits are just falling into holes.

Besides, what are we going to do? Call up Lance Broadway? Please. If there's one member of this team who has earned some patience and trust while he works out some things, it's Mark. So please, everyone, shut the hell up.


Yup, that bomb to Vlad should have been a pop out to crede, but the Wind
carried it another 300 feet.

No one is saying you bench Buehrle, but to just write it off as he will be fine he has done it before isn't a great arguement. He also has been horribly all over the place since 2005. Personally I think he will be ok, but to say no one can be concerned because he is who he is is soft. Im also a little worried thome is getting too old, but he has 500 home runs, so will he just be ok?

The truth is if Gavin and Danks (and pretty much Jose) had not been as good as they have, we would be feeling this more. His WHIP and his ERA have not been good. He needs to get it right if we are going to compete.

Hitmenof77
05-13-2008, 12:30 PM
So Buehrle is a crybaby now?

Ooooookay...

:?:

Now?? He's always been a crybaby. Who bitched and cried about the Rangers stealing signs? Who bitched and cried about the Indians? No other that MB. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 12:32 PM
Now?? He's always been a crybaby. Who bitched and cried about the Rangers stealing signs? Who bitched and cried about the Indians? No other that MB. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You need to add a few more 'm's to truly get your point across.

doublem23
05-13-2008, 12:48 PM
Now?? He's always been a crybaby. Who bitched and cried about the Rangers stealing signs? Who bitched and cried about the Indians? No other that MB. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

He also has a career ERA of 3.86 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand for all you complaining about hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis strikeout tooooooooooooooooooooooo walk ratio, peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps you should check yoooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur stats and yoooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu would find that his K/BB ratio for the combined 07-08 is 2.60, whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiich is better than hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis career K/BB ratio.

Hitmenof77
05-13-2008, 12:50 PM
You need to add a few more 'm's to truly get your point across.


Well since you insist, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMM

Is that enough?

oeo
05-13-2008, 12:51 PM
The defense has nothing to do with a lead off walk in the bottom of the 2nd after your team just spotted you a 3 run lead. That is what MB cannot do if he wants to be effective.

The defense did have something to do with a possible double play ball being booted. He could have erased the walk right there, and no one would have remembered a damn thing. How about the failed run down in Tampa Bay?

What Buehrle needs to be effective, is good defense. Hell, give him some average defense and he'll be fine. Over the course of the year, he hasn't even gotten that...it's been terrible.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 12:55 PM
Well since you insist, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMM

Is that enough?


http://www.wayneandgarth.com/images/78645160_l.jpeg

soxfan13
05-13-2008, 12:58 PM
I don't know, he did throw a complete game with 0 ER just 11 days ago.

:shrug:

Yeah I can make Dave Kingman look like a triple crown winner by just picking and choosing games.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 01:06 PM
Buehrle ended 2006 horribly.

He was unspectacular last season for a very unspectacular team.

He's started off this season looking like 2006. He still doesn't walk too many guys, but it's hard to walk people when you're giving up hits left and right on hangers up and over the outside of the plate.

His W/L record is not my concern, as he still is frequently left without run support. The problem is his horrid inconsistency.

People on these boards have criticized a starter this season for giving up one run in 7+ innings when "they should have buckled down and known the offense wasn't going to score." Yet Buehrle gets a pass from many folks and everything is put on the rest of the team when he can't pitch out of jams.

Buehrle is my favorite Sox player. But he shouldn't be immune from criticism, just as Konerko, Thome, and the great OC/Swish combo, etc. should not be immune.

They're all killing this team right now. And space heaters.

alohafri
05-13-2008, 01:07 PM
But what have you done for me lately?

So in his last three games, he is one very good, two very bad, and 0-3. If you aren't a little concerned over Mark's overall performance this season, you must be watching your 2005 DVD.

soxfan13
05-13-2008, 01:11 PM
He also has a career ERA of 3.86 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand for all you complaining about hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis strikeout tooooooooooooooooooooooo walk ratio, peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaps you should check yoooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur stats and yoooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu would find that his K/BB ratio for the combined 07-08 is 2.60, whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiich is better than hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis career K/BB ratio.

How about these stats from the half way point of 2006 until now

14-24 with a 4.82 ERA so again I ask how many more years do we have until its not a knee jerk response to be concerned over him.

doublem23
05-13-2008, 01:26 PM
How about these stats from the half way point of 2006 until now

14-24 with a 4.82 ERA so again I ask how many more years do we have until its not a knee jerk response to be concerned over him.

Oh, so you can pick and choose games to back up your point?

The 2nd half of 2006 was bad, but then again, Mark had tossed 500 IP in the past 2 seasons combined, so that's not entirely shocking. He had a good year last year, ERA 3.63, and so far he's off to a slow start.

Please don't bring up W/L which is a terrible way to judge a pitcher, especially a guy like Mark who has recieved the lowest run support of any pitcher in the American League over most of that span.

Next, please check your math. From the 2nd half of 2006 until right now, Mark's ERA is only 4.64, which I'm not suggesting is great, however, it really hurts your argument if you throw around incorrect figures...

2nd half of 2006 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=buehrma01&year=2006) = 58 ER in 81 IP
Entire 2007 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buehrma01.shtml) = 81 ER in 201 IP
So far 2008 = 31 ER in 48 IP

Total = 170 ER in 330 IP... 170*9 = 1530/330 = 4.64 ERA

getonbckthr
05-13-2008, 01:30 PM
Suddenly the Giants and Zito don't look so funny.

doublem23
05-13-2008, 01:32 PM
Suddenly the Giants and Zito don't look so funny.

:gah:

itsnotrequired
05-13-2008, 01:33 PM
Suddenly the Giants and Zito don't look so funny.

Buehrle is getting half the money Zito is while delivering twice the performance.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 01:33 PM
So in his last three games, he is one very good, two very bad, and 0-3. If you aren't a little concerned over Mark's overall performance this season, you must be watching your 2005 DVD.

It's been discussed ad nauseum, but Buehrle's defense let him down last night. Pitching over a mistake is one thing, but multiple mistakes? C'mon, our middle infield needs to get the job done.

Mark flat-out sucked against Minnesota, but I'm not ready to panic yet. If he's still struggling in a few weeks, then we'll need to look our options.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 01:39 PM
Mark flat-out sucked against Minnesota, but I'm not ready to panic yet. If he's still struggling in a few weeks, then we'll need to look our options.

There are no options. He'll be in the rotation unless he's hurt.

getonbckthr
05-13-2008, 01:40 PM
Buehrle is getting half the money Zito is while delivering twice the performance.
In 08 MB gets 14 million, Zito gets 14.5. Over the life of the contract MB averages 14 million, Zito averages 18 where is the double at?
Buehrle in 08: 1-5 5.81 era
Zito:0-7 6.58 era
They both are sucking, just Mark is sucking less.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 01:42 PM
There are no options. He'll be in the rotation unless he's hurt.

I'm with you there. I guess by "options" I meant "I'll tolerate threads questioning Buehrle's place on this team."

soxfan13
05-13-2008, 01:47 PM
Oh, so you can pick and choose games to back up your point?

The 2nd half of 2006 was bad, but then again, Mark had tossed 500 IP in the past 2 seasons combined, so that's not entirely shocking. He had a good year last year, ERA 3.63, and so far he's off to a slow start.

Please don't bring up W/L which is a terrible way to judge a pitcher, especially a guy like Mark who has recieved the lowest run support of any pitcher in the American League over most of that span.

Next, please check your math. From the 2nd half of 2006 until right now, Mark's ERA is only 4.64, which I'm not suggesting is great, however, it really hurts your argument if you throw around incorrect figures...

2nd half of 2006 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=buehrma01&year=2006) = 58 ER in 81 IP
Entire 2007 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buehrma01.shtml) = 81 ER in 201 IP
So far 2008 = 31 ER in 48 IP

Total = 170 ER in 330 IP... 170*9 = 1530/330 = 4.64 ERA

Sorry if i was picking and choosing I would have left 2007 out of the equation but I didnt. Baseball-reference has a different idea of when the second half starts. I was always under the assumption that game 82or 81 was the half way mark. That being said, for the second half of 2006 ill take away the 81st game that he pitched and was brutal.

so the second half of 2006 he was 3-8 with a 6.37 ERA
So far in 2008 he has given up 37 ER in 53.2 innings pitched for a 6.25 ERA

You seem to have forgotten last nights game in your stats.

My point being is a poster said this was a knee jerk reaction. I am saying its not. I love MB but IMO his first 3 or 4 years were just too taxing on his arm. I think he will be no better then a .500 pitcher from here on out and thats not the type of money the Sox are paying him

JB98
05-13-2008, 01:48 PM
There is going to be a nuclear meltdown here if Buehrle loses to Zito on Saturday.

Please, Mark, step up and win your next game. :(:

doublem23
05-13-2008, 01:51 PM
There is going to be a nuclear meltdown here if Buehrle loses to Zito on Saturday.

Please, Mark, step up and win your next game. :(:

Lucky for me, I'll be at my brother's graduation in Des Moines and unable to get to WSI until at least Sunday night. :cool:

getonbckthr
05-13-2008, 01:53 PM
There is going to be a nuclear meltdown here if Buehrle loses to Zito on Saturday.

Please, Mark, step up and win your next game. :(:
That game might outscore a Bears-Niners game.

alohafri
05-13-2008, 01:56 PM
It's been discussed ad nauseum, but Buehrle's defense let him down last night. Pitching over a mistake is one thing, but multiple mistakes? C'mon, our middle infield needs to get the job done.

Mark flat-out sucked against Minnesota, but I'm not ready to panic yet. If he's still struggling in a few weeks, then we'll need to look our options.

No one said panic (at last I didn't). All I said was that there should be some concern when you supposed "ace" is 1-5 with an ERA of 5.81. Those are numbers for a #4 starter in Tampa Bay!

JB98
05-13-2008, 01:56 PM
That game might outscore a Bears-Niners game.

I don't have that kind of faith in our hitters.

getonbckthr
05-13-2008, 01:57 PM
I don't have that kind of faith in our hitters.
A Barry Zito fastball is like Tony Parrish in coverage its just there and it does nothing.

JB98
05-13-2008, 02:02 PM
A Barry Zito fastball is like Tony Parrish in coverage its just there and it does nothing.

Zito throws the ball softly with his left hand. I'm sure he can master our hitters with that combination.

I'm very worried that our inept offense will grant Zito his first win. For 24 hours, we'll be the laughingstocks of baseball.

SoxSpeed22
05-13-2008, 02:02 PM
A Bears-Niners game would play the same way, with plenty of turnovers, a few field goals and more three-and-outs than we ever thought possible.
Buehrle has been here before in 2003. His down velocity is a concern, but he can find a way to rebound because he's smart enough to. If he is this inconsistent going into July, then I'll panic.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 02:31 PM
No one said panic (at last I didn't). All I said was that there should be some concern when you supposed "ace" is 1-5 with an ERA of 5.81. Those are numbers for a #4 starter in Tampa Bay!

No, I didn't get the impression that you were panicking, but certainly some folks in this thread appear to have a finger hovering over the panic button.

Am I concerned? Maybe a little, I suppose. About as much as I'm concerned about Konerko's offense or Crede's defense.

His numbers are poor, no doubt, but I'm confident that he'll turn it around soon. I mean, all things considered, his outing last night wasn't awful. Other than Vlad's homer, the worst thing Buehrle himself did was walk the leadoff man in the 1st inning.

Harry Chappas
05-13-2008, 02:39 PM
So Melton said that Buehrle himself thinks it's mental? Ugh.

Still, this defense seems to have let him down more times than in previous seasons. Orlando Cabrera has been a monumental disappointment. Does he remind anyone of Royce Clayton? If we have to tolerate Uribe's bat, I'd much rather have him at short. Yes, he also makes some errors, but he also has more range and a better arm than Cabrera.

I'm just spit-ballin' here, but would it make more sense to put Ramirez at his natural position, SS, and keep Uribe at 2nd? I realize Ramirez needs seasoning and should probably be at AAA, but from everything I've read, he's a very solid SS. Right now, I have little faith in OC at the plate or in the field.

infohawk
05-13-2008, 02:48 PM
I think Buerhle has always been this way, sometimes he gives up hits, sometimes he doesn't. So it goes with pitchers that aren't overpowering and have sometimes questionable defense behind them.
Though it does seem that since 2006, he's been a one-half a season pitcher.
It seems like Mark struggles for a portion of the season every couple of years. Until proven otherwise, I'm assuming this is just a bad stretch of starts for him. He's not a hard thrower, so I don't know why he would ever experience a substantial decline. As long as he can locate his pitches, he should be just fine. His struggles come from lack of location, not lack of velocity.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm just spit-ballin' here, but would it make more sense to put Ramirez at his natural position, SS, and keep Uribe at 2nd? I realize Ramirez needs seasoning and should probably be at AAA, but from everything I've read, he's a very solid SS. Right now, I have little faith in OC at the plate or in the field.

That would be fine with me. I'd be fine with shipping off both Uribe AND Cabrera just for the salary relief (which could be used to trade for a bat and/or relief help in July) and going with Ramirez at SS and Getz at 2B until Richar returns.

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 03:05 PM
That would be fine with me. I'd be fine with shipping off both Uribe AND Cabrera just for the salary relief (which could be used to trade for a bat and/or relief help in July) and going with Ramirez at SS and Getz at 2B until Richar returns.


Add Crede on the block for me too.

Fields, Ramirez, Getz sooner than later.

Hitmenof77
05-13-2008, 03:08 PM
Buehrle is getting half the money Zito is while delivering twice the performance.


MB is making $14 mil this year. Zito is making $14.5 mil. Nice math, but that's not half the money.

These numbers per ESPN.

kobo
05-13-2008, 03:09 PM
That would be fine with me. I'd be fine with shipping off both Uribe AND Cabrera just for the salary relief (which could be used to trade for a bat and/or relief help in July) and going with Ramirez at SS and Getz at 2B until Richar returns.
I wouldn't be fine with any of that.

Gammons Peter
05-13-2008, 03:10 PM
The defense did have something to do with a possible double play ball being booted. He could have erased the walk right there, and no one would have remembered a damn thing. How about the failed run down in Tampa Bay?

What Buehrle needs to be effective, is good defense. Hell, give him some average defense and he'll be fine. Over the course of the year, he hasn't even gotten that...it's been terrible.


ah, the resident Buehrle apologist. I told you a month ago he was a number three pitcher at best and that Javy was the best pitcher on the team.

kobo
05-13-2008, 03:11 PM
Add Crede on the block for me too.

Fields, Ramirez, Getz sooner than later.
Yes! Let's try to dump 3/4 of the infield to make way for guys who are currently in the minors! That'll turn the team around!!!

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 03:11 PM
I wouldn't be fine with any of that.


I think if we continue to play .500 baseball with this over-paid 1 yr Contract infield, we should move them sooner than later.

It's not like the 3 replacements can play any worse right now (Fields, Ramirez, Richar).

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 03:12 PM
Yes! Let's try to dump 3/4 of the infield to make way for guys who are currently in the minors! That'll turn the team around!!!

Read my next post, if we continue to spin our wheels with .500 basball, make the move.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 03:12 PM
I'm just spit-ballin' here, but would it make more sense to put Ramirez at his natural position, SS, and keep Uribe at 2nd? I realize Ramirez needs seasoning and should probably be at AAA, but from everything I've read, he's a very solid SS. Right now, I have little faith in OC at the plate or in the field.

You're seriously going to play Ramirez over Cabrera? I wouldn't play him over Uribe.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 03:13 PM
That would be fine with me. I'd be fine with shipping off both Uribe AND Cabrera just for the salary relief (which could be used to trade for a bat and/or relief help in July) and going with Ramirez at SS and Getz at 2B until Richar returns.

A middle infield that might combine for a .167 average? Sign me up!

And if Richar ever gets back here, I put the over/under at 1 week before people start calling for his head, too.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 03:18 PM
You're seriously going to play Ramirez over Cabrera? I wouldn't play him over Uribe.

Cabrera has been as disappointing as Cory Snyder, Steve Sax, David Wells, Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 03:20 PM
A middle infield that might combine for a .167 average? Sign me up!

And if Richar ever gets back here, I put the over/under at 1 week before people start calling for his head, too.

A .167 average isn't far from what the $13 million paid to Uribe and Cabrera combined is buying.

Given the choice between overpaid veterans who perform badly and cheap youngsters with potential who perform badly, I'll take the latter.

kobo
05-13-2008, 03:22 PM
I think if we continue to play .500 baseball with this over-paid 1 yr Contract infield, we should move them sooner than later.

It's not like the 3 replacements can play any worse right now (Fields, Ramirez, Richar).
Move them where? Uribe will be gone once Richar is healthy. I'm not ready to give up on Cabrera. He hasn't performed to his potential yet, and I don't want the Sox to move him because Ramirez is not ready to play everyday. And Crede? Unless he starts tearing the cover off the ball he isn't going anywhere. And sorry, even if they are playing .500 ball, that's what I expected from this team this year, so it's a moot point to try and start moving everyone.

RockJock07
05-13-2008, 03:30 PM
It's been discussed ad nauseum, but Buehrle's defense let him down last night. Pitching over a mistake is one thing, but multiple mistakes? C'mon, our middle infield needs to get the job done.

Mark flat-out sucked against Minnesota, but I'm not ready to panic yet. If he's still struggling in a few weeks, then we'll need to look our options.

There are no options, even if Mark were performing like Zito there is not a damn thing the Sox could do about it. They owe him tons of money, and we will just have to ride the storm with him. He hasn't pitched great but yestereday was a winnable game if the offense wouldn't run away and hide.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 03:36 PM
There are no options, even if Mark were performing like Zito there is not a damn thing the Sox could do about it. They owe him tons of money, and we will just have to ride the storm with him. He hasn't pitched great but yestereday was a winnable game if the offense wouldn't run away and hide.

I'm with you there. I guess by "options" I meant "I'll tolerate threads questioning Buehrle's place on this team."


Also, we've talked about the ****ty defense, but how about our relief pitching? Wassermann sucked, as did Logan.

The offense scored 7 runs...you're supposed to win games where you score 7 runs.

Gammons Peter
05-13-2008, 03:45 PM
Don't get me started on Wassermann. That guy has no business being on a big league roster...Any big league roster. He is an embarrassment to any organization that employs him.

hi im skot
05-13-2008, 03:47 PM
Don't get me started on Wassermann. That guy has no business being on a big league roster...Any big league roster. He is an embarrassment to any organization that employs him.

He looked great last year.

/just sayin'

LoveYourSuit
05-13-2008, 03:48 PM
Don't get me started on Wassermann. That guy has no business being on a big league roster...Any big league roster. He is an embarrassment to any organization that employs him.


Well we did employ Rick White and Michael Jackson at one point?


Is he as bad?

Gammons Peter
05-13-2008, 03:50 PM
He looked great last year.

/just sayin'


He did somehow get the job done last year. I'll call it a fluke. He is a SINGLE-A pitcher.

Gammons Peter
05-13-2008, 03:53 PM
Well we did employ Rick White and Michael Jackson at one point?


Is he as bad?

White was borderline but Jackson did have a pretty good arm. They were both better than wassermann

kittle42
05-13-2008, 04:11 PM
A .167 average isn't far from what the $13 million paid to Uribe and Cabrera combined is buying.

Given the choice between overpaid veterans who perform badly and cheap youngsters with potential who perform badly, I'll take the latter.

Then let's jettison Thome and Konerko, too.

Frontman
05-13-2008, 04:19 PM
Then let's jettison Thome and Konerko, too.

Dye too.

Swish hasn't been much to write home about.

Joe Crede hasn't been all that great on defense.

So, the team would be Javy, AJ, Danks, Floyd, and Carlos Quentin by the time we're done jettisoning players who haven't performed well.

But hey, we'd almost have a rotation there!

kittle42
05-13-2008, 04:23 PM
Dye too.

Swish hasn't been much to write home about.

Joe Crede hasn't been all that great on defense.

So, the team would be Javy, AJ, Danks, Floyd, and Carlos Quentin by the time we're done jettisoning players who haven't performed well.

But hey, we'd almost have a rotation there!

Hey, it's working for the Marlins!

rowand33
05-13-2008, 05:08 PM
since the all star break last year,

Buehrle is 5-10 with a 4.93 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, and a +.300 BAA in 133.1 IP.

We should be pretty worried.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 05:21 PM
since the all star break last year,

Buehrle is 5-10 with a 4.93 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, and a +.300 BAA in 133.1 IP.

We should be pretty worried.

Those are the worrisome stats.

turners56
05-13-2008, 05:23 PM
The only thing wrong with Mark these past games is his inability to locate his pitches well. His arm is fine, he's healthy, he's just not hitting his spots. Without his control, he's nothing special. That's what we've seen in the past two starts so far.

TomBradley72
05-13-2008, 05:58 PM
The only thing wrong with Mark these past games is his inability to locate his pitches well. His arm is fine, he's healthy, he's just not hitting his spots. Without his control, he's nothing special. That's what we've seen in the past two starts so far.

Which is EVERYTHING if you're MB. This year he seems to be letting the frustration get to him more. I think they've played their worst defense when's he in there....and that's been a big part of the problem. But the "add on" runs after the errors are a huge concern.

Frater Perdurabo
05-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Then let's jettison Thome and Konerko, too.

Hey, you know that I'm infamous for previously arguing that KW trade Paulie, but now that he has 10-5 rights, there's no point anymore.

And I have written elsewhere that after this season I would trade Dye and buy out Thome's option.

kittle42
05-13-2008, 06:25 PM
Hey, you know that I'm infamous for previously arguing that KW trade Paulie, but now that he has 10-5 rights, there's no point anymore.

And I have written elsewhere that after this season I would trade Dye and buy out Thome's option.

I'd like to see 2 of the 3 of them gone, too. And I think Konerko will pick it up (as he has every year but one) to the point where the obvious answers are Dye and Thome.

What a strange ride on Thome's Sox career, by the way. When he was acquired, it was like 2006 WS, here we come - a HOF power lefty in the heart of the order...now, hitters like him are holding the lineup back.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-13-2008, 07:32 PM
I'd like to see 2 of the 3 of them gone, too. And I think Konerko will pick it up (as he has every year but one) to the point where the obvious answers are Dye and Thome.

What a strange ride on Thome's Sox career, by the way. When he was acquired, it was like 2006 WS, here we come - a HOF power lefty in the heart of the order...now, hitters like him are holding the lineup back.

I, too, would like to see two of the three (if not all thrdee) be gone for next year, but if one stays I would rather it be Dye. He's a more consistent hitter than Konerko or Thome at this point of their careers and he has a lot more speed.

I'd like to see Uribe, Thome, Konerko, Buerhle, and Crede. That's about $50-million in payroll right there. The team needs to get faster, younger, and play with a sense of purpose.

turners56
05-13-2008, 07:32 PM
Which is EVERYTHING if you're MB. This year he seems to be letting the frustration get to him more. I think they've played their worst defense when's he in there....and that's been a big part of the problem. But the "add on" runs after the errors are a huge concern.

This season reminds me so much of 2004, when Buehrle got screwed over so many times it wasn't even funny. I remember the one game in Toronto where Graffanino had a similar play he had in the 05 ALDS, he let the ball go through the wickets. Buehrle ended up getting pounded for 8 runs or something.

santo=dorf
05-13-2008, 08:47 PM
This season reminds me so much of 2004, when Buehrle got screwed over so many times it wasn't even funny. I remember the one game in Toronto where Graffanino had a similar play he had in the 05 ALDS, he let the ball go through the wickets. Buehrle ended up getting pounded for 8 runs or something.
He has outings like that every year.

turners56
05-13-2008, 08:50 PM
He has outings like that every year.

But if I remember correctly, he got screwed more that year than any other year.

Railsplitter
05-13-2008, 10:45 PM
Worring is part of being a Sox fan.

I_Liked_Manuel
05-13-2008, 11:04 PM
He has outings like that every year.

he's a hard-luck loser more often than any pitcher i've ever seen. the only reason i can think of for it is that he sticks around in games more often than most.

alohafri
05-14-2008, 08:31 AM
Read my next post, if we continue to spin our wheels with .500 basball, make the move.

I agree. If we aren't going to make the playoffs, let the kids have a tryout for next year. And get rid of the lumbering crew of Thome, Konerko, and Dye. I don't see them bringing anything to the table in the next couple of years.

jordans323
05-14-2008, 10:12 AM
I think it is time to wory about the offense as a whole, and maybe time to make some trades and bring in speed and players that hi for average and produce runs.

October26
05-14-2008, 10:25 AM
I think it is time to wory about the offense as a whole, and maybe time to make some trades and bring in speed and players that hi for average and produce runs.

:welcome:

doublem23
05-14-2008, 10:30 AM
I think it is time to wory about the offense as a whole, and maybe time to make some trades and bring in speed and players that hi for average and produce runs.

That's a nice sentiment, but I don't know where we're going to find those types of guys with the players we have. The only players on this team that have any value on the market right now are the pitchers, but what's the point of upgrading the offense if it comes at such a cost to pitching? Losing 2-0 is frustrating, but so is losing 12-10.

roadrunner
05-14-2008, 10:44 AM
Yes, it's time to worry. It's also time to start scouting the Yankees and Dodgers.

kittle42
05-14-2008, 10:45 AM
That's a nice sentiment, but I don't know where we're going to find those types of guys with the players we have. The only players on this team that have any value on the market right now are the pitchers, but what's the point of upgrading the offense if it comes at such a cost to pitching? Losing 2-0 is frustrating, but so is losing 12-10.

Excellent point. And we have ZIP in the minors to trade (no, folks, Charlie Haeger is not highly sought-after), as well.

It's a position where the Sox have no choice but to either unload the vets for youth, or sign high-priced free agents. We know the latter won't happen.

assrevolution
05-14-2008, 02:31 PM
We're not scoring enough runs to be worrying about our only starting pitcher with an ERA over 5.

kittle42
05-14-2008, 02:34 PM
We're not scoring enough runs to be worrying about our only starting pitcher with an ERA over 5.

We should be worried about any pitcher with an ERA over 0.00.

MetroPD
05-14-2008, 02:41 PM
We should be worried about any pitcher with an ERA over 0.00.
ain't that the truth.

santo=dorf
05-14-2008, 02:53 PM
We should be worried about any pitcher with an ERA over 0.00.
You still can't forget our Keystone Light combo and Brooks Crede's iron gloves that give up more runs than they take away.

hi im skot
05-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Here's a great article (http://soxmachine.com/blogs/soxmachine/archive/2008/05/13/12753.aspx)from Sox Machine that should piss off the Buehrle detractors.

It's a good read, and the author makes some good points.