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View Full Version : That Octavio Dotel...


jabrch
05-09-2008, 03:40 AM
he sucks

Mohoney
05-09-2008, 06:13 AM
I hope he builds on this. I also hope MacDougal gets his control back.

If we can go deep into this season with 2 guys that are absolutely rock-solid (Linebrink and Jenks), and 4 guys that give flashes of dominance from time to time (Dotel, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan), we'll be right up there with any bullpen in the game.

I don't want to jinx it, but so far, I'm thrilled with what the pitching staff has done. The offense is what is killing us.

santo=dorf
05-09-2008, 06:58 AM
Yes, and the 2007 White Sox bullpen might be the greatest in the history of baseball. Did you see Aardsma strikeout the side with the bases loaded?

BadBobbyJenks
05-09-2008, 07:35 AM
Yes, and the 2007 White Sox bullpen might be the greatest in the history of baseball. Did you see Aardsma strikeout the side with the bases loaded?

Octavio Dotel is not Aardsma.

rdwj
05-09-2008, 08:14 AM
I hope he builds on this. I also hope MacDougal gets his control back.

If we can go deep into this season with 2 guys that are absolutely rock-solid (Linebrink and Jenks), and 4 guys that give flashes of dominance from time to time (Dotel, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan), we'll be right up there with any bullpen in the game.

I don't want to jinx it, but so far, I'm thrilled with what the pitching staff has done. The offense is what is killing us.

Totally agree on pitching. We've got a lot to be excited about and hopefully thing s pan our for us.

Offense - They haven't hit their stride yet!

doublem23
05-09-2008, 08:31 AM
Octavio Dotel is not Aardsma.

David Aardsma's ERA on May 9, 2007: 1.40

Frontman
05-09-2008, 08:44 AM
David Aardsma's ERA on May 9, 2007: 1.40

But that was then, this is now. Dotel had an outstanding outing; and I agree with all who hopes he builds from it. We can all enjoy the ride in the meantime.

Huisj
05-09-2008, 08:52 AM
David Aardsma's ERA on May 9, 2007: 1.40

And on May 9, 2008: 2.70. Not bad, except that he's walked 14 guys in 16.2 innings. That's bad.

itsnotrequired
05-09-2008, 09:01 AM
And on May 9, 2008: 2.70. Not bad, except that he's walked 14 guys in 16.2 innings. That's bad.

And by May 20, his ERA was over 5.

btrain929
05-09-2008, 09:12 AM
And by May 20, his ERA was over 5.

Dotel has a track record of being anywhere from average to above average for full seasons. You can't say the same for Aaaaaardsma.

Dan Mega
05-09-2008, 09:20 AM
Now who was it that told me that bullpen ERA can't be judged this early in the year?

Tragg
05-09-2008, 09:27 AM
Dotel has also given up two homers (at least) that cost us 2 games, already in this short season. So if people are going to say that a slapper like Ozuna or whatever other bad hitter is "clutch", then Dotel is anti-clutch.

He's obviously best-used at the start of an inning, not to close out an inning, becuase of the huge risk of a gopher.

That said, as veteran career middle relievers go, which is what he is, he's fine.

alohafri
05-09-2008, 09:32 AM
he sucks

It was one strong outing. Saying Dotel is now great because of one strong outing is like saying Buehrle sucks because of one bad outing.

slowlearner
05-09-2008, 09:44 AM
I'm obviously glad he had a good outing, but it's not like he's turned some corner or something. Dotel's always been schizo like that. Looks good one day, like dog**** the next. That's just who he is. He usually ends up being a slightly above average reliever by the end of the year, but it's a rollercoaster getting there.

sullythered
05-09-2008, 10:00 AM
David Aardsma's ERA on May 9, 2007: 1.40

Career:
Octavio Dotel: 3.74 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 10.85 K/9, 3.96 BB/9
David Aardsma: 5.16 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 8.44 K/9, 5.16 BB/9

Apples and Oranges.

It makes no sense to look at a good start from a historically good player, and compare it to a past good start from a historically terrible one.

hi im skot
05-09-2008, 10:01 AM
And yet Boone Logan gets a free pass.

JorgeFabregas
05-09-2008, 10:04 AM
And yet Boone Logan gets a free pass.
What do you want people to say about Boone Logan?

ron_j_galt
05-09-2008, 10:10 AM
Career:
Octavio Dotel: 3.74 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 10.85 K/9, 3.96 BB/9
David Aardsma: 5.16 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 8.44 K/9, 5.16 BB/9

Apples and Oranges.

It makes no sense to look at a good start from a historically good player, and compare it to a past good start from a historically terrible one.

Dotel, 2005-2008: 69 IP, 4.82 ERA, 1.62 WHIP, 11.1 K/9, 5.35 BB/9

hi im skot
05-09-2008, 10:10 AM
What do you want people to say about Boone Logan?

Dotel. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/doteloc01.shtml)

Logan. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/loganbo02.shtml)

Just saying...neither one has exactly been stellar this season. I think people focus more on Dotel's issues than Logan's.

Boone hasn't proven anything yet...at least Dotel has had some success at the big league level.

JorgeFabregas
05-09-2008, 10:12 AM
Logan has been decent. 1.385 WHIP, 10:3 K:BB. :shrug:

Jurr
05-09-2008, 10:15 AM
Dotel. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/doteloc01.shtml)

Logan. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/loganbo02.shtml)

Just saying...neither one has exactly been stellar this season. I think people focus more on Dotel's issues than Logan's.

Boone hasn't proven anything yet...at least Dotel has had some success at the big league level.
That would probably be a money issue. Dotel has had success, and he received a big contract as a result. He was paid to make a big contribution to this bullpen. Boone Logan came out of nowhere to get a job in the bullpen. I agree that when you are called into an MLB game, it's your job to produce. The money brings expectations, and Dotel's money is much greater than Logan.

sullythered
05-09-2008, 10:16 AM
Dotel, 2005-2008: 69 IP, 4.82 ERA, 1.62 WHIP, 11.1 K/9, 5.35 BB/9

And as has been pointed out a number of times right here, it takes approximately two full years to get back to normal after arm surgery. Now that his velocity and breaking ball are back, it would make much more sense to compare him to his pre-injury self (3.46 ERA right now), further bolstering my argument.

Oh, and David Aardsma would love to be as good as the injured Dotel that you are referring to.

kjhanson
05-09-2008, 10:28 AM
Dotel has also given up two homers (at least) that cost us 2 games, already in this short season.

That seems really hard to do when he's only given up 1 homer on the entire year. Let's not forget that he came into that game with the bases loaded, one out and Jeter, Abreu and Matsui up.

Your second phantom home run was a double on opening day against Cleveland. Since that outing he has settled a bit and has a 1.50 ERA

alohafri
05-09-2008, 10:40 AM
What do you want people to say about Boone Logan?

He doesn't brush his teeth...

doublem23
05-09-2008, 10:50 AM
Career:
Octavio Dotel: 3.74 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 10.85 K/9, 3.96 BB/9
David Aardsma: 5.16 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 8.44 K/9, 5.16 BB/9

Apples and Oranges.

It makes no sense to look at a good start from a historically good player, and compare it to a past good start from a historically terrible one.

Maybe, but if your taking Aardsma's career stats before this season, that would still only be a sample set of less than 100 IP. His current career ERA, through the 16.2 good IP he's thrown for the Red Sox this year is 4.79.

TomBradley72
05-09-2008, 10:53 AM
I think Dotel has pitched OK for the past few weeks...yesterday's outing was outstanding...in Toronto, he would have escaped without letting in a run if it wasn't for another Crede error. He seems to have some fire in the belly....and is much better off starting an inning. I still don't see his command where you'd like it to be. But if he is our 6th inning guy....he's a good guy for that role. Hoepfully Wassermann settles down and he can stay in this role for now.

But what about the shoes? I was there yesterday....he's wearing these white and black shoes that combined with his pull up socks (another point in his favor) looks pretty, um, "unique". :cool:

Zisk77
05-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Come on, don't you know that if a player isn't good in every single segment of the season he sucks.

One good outing doesn't make a player good

Having a rough start to a season doen't make a person bad....see Konerko's and Dye's April batiing average in 2005...Mendozaesque.

Of course for some the sky is always falling. I mean we actually lost a playoff game in 05 the bums. Its a flawed championship.:D:

When healthy Dotel's been a solid reliever and this was not his only good outing this year.

Craig Grebeck
05-09-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm confused as to how anyone could bitch about Boone Logan. On the other hand, Dotel...

Frontman
05-09-2008, 12:42 PM
I'm confused as to how anyone could bitch about Boone Logan. On the other hand, Dotel...

Every single member of this team has had some rough spots to the season already, including Logan. I just don't get the runaway rollercoaster up/down the fans have been on already. Sure, a week without a win was depressing; but the whole "blow them up, the season is over" routine in the first two weeks of May?

ms620
05-09-2008, 01:05 PM
I'm confused as to how anyone could bitch about Boone Logan. On the other hand, Dotel...

I will help you understand: HE SUCKS!

spawn
05-09-2008, 01:25 PM
Every single member of this team has had some rough spots to the season already, including Logan. I just don't get the runaway rollercoaster up/down the fans have been on already. Sure, a week without a win was depressing; but the whole "blow them up, the season is over" routine in the first two weeks of May?
You mean you weren't expecting that here? I know I was.

alohafri
05-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Every single member of this team has had some rough spots to the season already, including Logan. I just don't get the runaway rollercoaster up/down the fans have been on already. Sure, a week without a win was depressing; but the whole "blow them up, the season is over" routine in the first two weeks of May?

It's actually quite simple. Some see the potential of the team and think, "once they start playing to it, things will be all right." Others see the current play and say, "potential my ass; by the time they play to it, it will be too late."

Admittedly, I fall into the second category, but I don't fault anyone for being in the first.

hi im skot
05-09-2008, 02:53 PM
Every single member of this team has had some rough spots to the season already, including Logan. I just don't get the runaway rollercoaster up/down the fans have been on already. Sure, a week without a win was depressing; but the whole "blow them up, the season is over" routine in the first two weeks of May?


I have no desire to "blow it up." I just think it's unfair to pinpoint the focus of our bullpen troubles on Dotel. Logan has had his troubles as well.

I hope they both pitch up to their capabilities.

Believe It!
05-09-2008, 03:12 PM
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm85/mattjr35/DocOc.jpg

DOC OC is my Hero!

hi im skot
05-09-2008, 03:22 PM
DOC OC is my Hero!


:rolling:

MCHSoxFan
05-09-2008, 07:04 PM
I hope he builds on this. I also hope MacDougal gets his control back.

If we can go deep into this season with 2 guys that are absolutely rock-solid (Linebrink and Jenks), and 4 guys that give flashes of dominance from time to time (Dotel, MacDougal, Thornton, Logan), we'll be right up there with any bullpen in the game.

I don't want to jinx it, but so far, I'm thrilled with what the pitching staff has done. The offense is what is killing us.


Yep! Now, if the offense could continue what it need yesterday the vast-majority of the time, we could run-away with the division. All I know is, we have what it takes to WIN!!! YEEESSS!!!

chisoxfanatic
05-09-2008, 07:53 PM
I hope he builds on this. I also hope MacDougal gets his control back.
I do too. I'm gonna wait a while longer before changing my thoughts on him. I hope he proves me wrong though. We need that bullpen to be tough as nails.

Tragg
05-09-2008, 09:13 PM
That seems really hard to do when he's only given up 1 homer on the entire year. Let's not forget that he came into that game with the bases loaded, one out and Jeter, Abreu and Matsui up.

Your second phantom home run was a double on opening day against Cleveland. Since that outing he has settled a bit and has a 1.50 ERA
Fine a double - it was a bases clearing double on opening day.
The late inning grandslam he gave up to the Yankees - you call a "Second phantom homer" - what was so phantom about it? Because he faced tough hitters???

Like I said, he's dangerous with runners on as the fact show (bases clearing double, grand slam) but overall is okay.

santo=dorf
05-09-2008, 09:36 PM
The ERA is also misleading because he opened up the flood gates after clutch, grindy, defensive master, Joe Crede comitted an error with two outs.

jabrch
05-10-2008, 03:40 PM
It was one strong outing. Saying Dotel is now great because of one strong outing is like saying Buehrle sucks because of one bad outing.

Exactly...and when I put this thread up, I was expecting that response...which is exactly like saying Dotel sucks when he's allowed 2 ER in his last 11 IP, and has really only had one outing where he truly sucked it up... He's had two outings where his D let him down, and a crappy time in his first appearance this season. But Dotel really hasn't been as bad as some of the most knowledgeable fans in baseball would want you to believe.

Until Dotel has a solid half season under his belt, drawing any conclusions about him is doing so without sufficient information. Even then - I question the wisdom of writing a player off so soon.

Relievers are tough to evaluate - a single bad outing has a significant impact on his statistics - which are misleading to begin with.

I will say this - Dotel has struck out 21 in 13 IP. While I really don't care how his out come, I do see why that would be attractive for a reliever.

He's allowed 4 of his 8 inherited runners scored, plus an additional 5 ER of his own (3 of which came on March 31).

I am by no means nominating him for MVP. But the "Dotel Sucks" stuff is just plain ignorant.

JB98
05-11-2008, 02:41 AM
Meh....Dotel's better than the knobs we had pitching in middle relief last season. But I don't think he's anything spectacular. Hopefully, he can stay healthy. Injuries have sent his career trending downward in recent years.

He was real good against the Twins the other day. Tonight, I could have shot him when he walked Willie Freakin' Bloomquist to bring Beltre up representing the tying run. Fortunately, the Mariners ran themselves out of the inning by falling for the first-to-third fake.

Frontman
05-11-2008, 08:41 AM
Dotel is a solid veteran relief guy; who isn't lights out anymore. If he was, he'd be closing somewhere. That being said, I have much more faith in Dotel this year than I ever did with the amazing Ryan Buckvich last season.

And the Doc OC pic is awesome.

russ99
05-11-2008, 12:43 PM
Career:
Octavio Dotel: 3.74 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 10.85 K/9, 3.96 BB/9
David Aardsma: 5.16 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 8.44 K/9, 5.16 BB/9

Apples and Oranges.

It makes no sense to look at a good start from a historically good player, and compare it to a past good start from a historically terrible one.

Plus Aardsma's problem is he only had that one out pitch. Once hitters figured that out it was like T-ball. Dotel has multiple good pitches, and he can throw them for strikes.

turners56
05-11-2008, 01:14 PM
He actually pitched (or should I say picked off?) himself out of a jam yesterday, that's a first.

PalehosePlanet
05-11-2008, 01:17 PM
Exactly...and when I put this thread up, I was expecting that response...which is exactly like saying Dotel sucks when he's allowed 2 ER in his last 11 IP, and has really only had one outing where he truly sucked it up... He's had two outings where his D let him down, and a crappy time in his first appearance this season. But Dotel really hasn't been as bad as some of the most knowledgeable fans in baseball would want you to believe.

Until Dotel has a solid half season under his belt, drawing any conclusions about him is doing so without sufficient information. Even then - I question the wisdom of writing a player off so soon.

Relievers are tough to evaluate - a single bad outing has a significant impact on his statistics - which are misleading to begin with.

I will say this - Dotel has struck out 21 in 13 IP. While I really don't care how his out come, I do see why that would be attractive for a reliever.

He's allowed 4 of his 8 inherited runners scored, plus an additional 5 ER of his own (3 of which came on March 31).

I am by no means nominating him for MVP. But the "Dotel Sucks" stuff is just plain ignorant.

Thank you; well said. The "Blo-tel" bull**** was really getting on my nerves.

The fickleness on this board is just too much sometimes. It's gotten to the point that it's hard to come on WSI after a couple of losses in a row.

santo=dorf
05-11-2008, 01:22 PM
Career:
Octavio Dotel: 3.74 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 10.85 K/9, 3.96 BB/9
David Aardsma: 5.16 ERA, 1.61 WHIP, 8.44 K/9, 5.16 BB/9

Apples and Oranges.

It makes no sense to look at a good start from a historically good player, and compare it to a past good start from a historically terrible one.
...and that makes about as much sense as using one guy's entire crappy 2007 season against before it happened and a 10 year veteran's career numbers who also had TJS.

FarWestChicago
05-11-2008, 01:25 PM
The fickleness on this board is just too much sometimes. It's gotten to the point that it's hard to come on WSI after a couple of losses in a row.A coupe of losses? This board can be hard to take after a couple of wins. :smile:

jabrch
05-11-2008, 01:28 PM
A coupe of losses? This board can be hard to take after a couple of wins. :smile:

Well said West!

Any idea when this started? It wasn't like this when I first started reading here.