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View Full Version : Rebuilding should happen sooner rather than later.


Jurr
05-07-2008, 10:30 PM
This team needs an enema.

"Experts" kept saying that the Sox should have begun their rebuilding project this season, stating that since the WS, they have been trying to add veteran free agent talent to get back to the big stage. It's just my opinion, and you may think I'm out of line, but I believe that the team needs overhauled from the offensive side.

This team needs a bit more athleticism. They need less pull hitters, and more offensive players with speed and the ability to hit for average. The thing that worries me is the fact that the lineup is loaded with high priced sluggers and lacking future talent. While the Twins are trading pitchers for young multi-tooled players (Young, Gomez, etc.), the Sox are trading pitchers for 34 year old shortstops. Even if Cabrera ends up producing what he did last year, did it give you any long term advantage? Nope.

You've got exciting young players such as Owens, Fields, Swisher, Quentin, and Ramirez. Crede is incredible at third. Throw in some promising young pitchers like Broadway, Floyd, and Danks, and you see that the rotation has a chance. Right now, some of our young talent is sitting on the bench while overpriced sluggers are plodding around with nothing to prove.

One thing about the '05 Sox was the hunger they possessed. Everett and Dye had the injury red flag. Add Hernandez to that group. Contreras was a certifiable head case. Pods was coming off of a subpar sophomore season. Pierzynski was a castoff. The team came together to win.

This team has a bunch of thirty-somethings that have their contracts in hand and show an utter lack of ability to stem the tide of a bad slump. They just hang their heads and make (or steal) a paycheck. It needs to stop.

Let the kids play. Ship off Dye, Thome, and Konerko for a group of talented players that can build a new era of Sox baseball.

I love all of the guys on this roster. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the guys that came in and caught lightning in a bottle to bring Chicago a WS title. Since July of '06 the team has been 30 games under. It's not getting any better. Add to that fact that there are NO signs of improvement. Get some players up here that are hungry to win and are "dumb" enough to shake off a bad game or two and come out fighting. This team definitely isn't.

southsideirish71
05-07-2008, 10:36 PM
This team needs an enema.

"Experts" kept saying that the Sox should have begun their rebuilding project this season, stating that since the WS, they have been trying to add veteran free agent talent to get back to the big stage. It's just my opinion, and you may think I'm out of line, but I believe that the team needs overhauled from the offensive side.

This team needs a bit more athleticism. They need less pull hitters, and more offensive players with speed and the ability to hit for average. The thing that worries me is the fact that the lineup is loaded with high priced sluggers and lacking future talent. While the Twins are trading pitchers for young multi-tooled players (Young, Gomez, etc.), the Sox are trading pitchers for 34 year old shortstops. Even if Cabrera ends up producing what he did last year, did it give you any long term advantage? Nope.

You've got exciting young players such as Owens, Fields, Swisher, Quentin, and Ramirez. Crede is incredible at third. Throw in some promising young pitchers like Broadway, Floyd, and Danks, and you see that the rotation has a chance. Right now, some of our young talent is sitting on the bench while overpriced sluggers are plodding around with nothing to prove.

One thing about the '05 Sox was the hunger they possessed. Everett and Dye had the injury red flag. Add Hernandez to that group. Contreras was a certifiable head case. Pods was coming off of a subpar sophomore season. Pierzynski was a castoff. The team came together to win.

This team has a bunch of thirty-somethings that have their contracts in hand and show an utter lack of ability to stem the tide of a bad slump. They just hang their heads and make (or steal) a paycheck. It needs to stop.

Let the kids play. Ship off Dye, Thome, and Konerko for a group of talented players that can build a new era of Sox baseball.

I love all of the guys on this roster. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the guys that came in and caught lightning in a bottle to bring Chicago a WS title. Since July of '06 the team has been 30 games under. It's not getting any better. Add to that fact that there are NO signs of improvement. Get some players up here that are hungry to win and are "dumb" enough to shake off a bad game or two and come out fighting. This team definitely isn't.

That ship has sailed. Dye has a NTC, Thome is pretty much untradeable this year, and Kong is a 5 and 10 guy.

Crede has some limited value, but teams havent been giving a whole lot for a rental and with the Boras factor that is a negative as well.

The only items of value is Swisher, Quentin, Fields, and the pitching from a value for value standpoint. Trading any of our starting pitching outside of Contreras is foolish.

As it looks, we had an opportunity last year and we made a commitment and now we have to ride it out.

Jurr
05-07-2008, 10:38 PM
That ship has sailed. Dye has a NTC, Thome is pretty much untradeable this year, and Kong is a 5 and 10 guy.

Crede has some limited value, but teams havent been giving a whole lot for a rental and with the Boras factor that is a negative as well.

The only items of value is Swisher, Quentin, Fields, and the pitching from a value for value standpoint. Trading any of our starting pitching outside of Contreras is foolish.

As it looks, we had an opportunity last year and we made a commitment and now we have to ride it out.
I think the guys with NTCs would want to get the hell out of town if they're consistently losing. Finding a team that will take on crap contracts will be tough.

southsideirish71
05-07-2008, 10:40 PM
I think the guys with NTCs would want to get the hell out of town if they're consistently losing. Finding a team that will take on crap contracts will be tough.

Well who needs a 1st baseman, that has a few years on his contract and has had long periods of slump. He has power.

Thome is a DH only, so pretty much you have limited yourself to the AL. He again, is in the midst of a long slump.

Dye has had injury issues, and the best we could do last year was Willie Mo Pena and a PTBNL.

The 3-4-5 would be moveable if they were actually hitting. But now they look older, and slower, and out of it. That plus large amounts of money owed = hard to move.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 10:41 PM
This team needs an enema.

"Experts" kept saying that the Sox should have begun their rebuilding project this season, stating that since the WS, they have been trying to add veteran free agent talent to get back to the big stage. It's just my opinion, and you may think I'm out of line, but I believe that the team needs overhauled from the offensive side.

This team needs a bit more athleticism. They need less pull hitters, and more offensive players with speed and the ability to hit for average. The thing that worries me is the fact that the lineup is loaded with high priced sluggers and lacking future talent. While the Twins are trading pitchers for young multi-tooled players (Young, Gomez, etc.), the Sox are trading pitchers for 34 year old shortstops. Even if Cabrera ends up producing what he did last year, did it give you any long term advantage? Nope.

You've got exciting young players such as Owens, Fields, Swisher, Quentin, and Ramirez. Crede is incredible at third. Throw in some promising young pitchers like Broadway, Floyd, and Danks, and you see that the rotation has a chance. Right now, some of our young talent is sitting on the bench while overpriced sluggers are plodding around with nothing to prove.

One thing about the '05 Sox was the hunger they possessed. Everett and Dye had the injury red flag. Add Hernandez to that group. Contreras was a certifiable head case. Pods was coming off of a subpar sophomore season. Pierzynski was a castoff. The team came together to win.

This team has a bunch of thirty-somethings that have their contracts in hand and show an utter lack of ability to stem the tide of a bad slump. They just hang their heads and make (or steal) a paycheck. It needs to stop.

Let the kids play. Ship off Dye, Thome, and Konerko for a group of talented players that can build a new era of Sox baseball.

I love all of the guys on this roster. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the guys that came in and caught lightning in a bottle to bring Chicago a WS title. Since July of '06 the team has been 30 games under. It's not getting any better. Add to that fact that there are NO signs of improvement. Get some players up here that are hungry to win and are "dumb" enough to shake off a bad game or two and come out fighting. This team definitely isn't.

I agree wholeheartedly.....time to make some major changes.

Jurr
05-07-2008, 10:44 PM
I agree wholeheartedly.....time to make some major changes.
There will be people that will disagree with the exact same amount of vigor. They will probably be chirping a different tune by the time this team comes back to Chicago after the west coast swing.

sox1970
05-07-2008, 10:44 PM
They're stuck with what they have until July. Just have to play it out, and hopefully they'll still be in it. If not, try to move anyone over 30 except AJ.

DickAllen72
05-07-2008, 10:46 PM
Well who needs a 1st baseman, that has a few years on his contract and has had long periods of slump. He has power.

Thome is a DH only, so pretty much you have limited yourself to the AL. He again, is in the midst of a long slump.

Dye has had injury issues, and the best we could do last year was Willie Mo Pena and a PTBNL.

The 3-4-5 would be moveable if they were actually hitting. But now they look older, and slower, and out of it. That plus large amounts of money owed = hard to move.
Just give Thome to the first team that will take on his contract. Some contender may need a slugger because of an injury at some point in the season.

They're most likely stuck with Konerko (5/10) and Dye (NTC). If Konerko would consent to a trade, they should pull the trigger. Dye I don't mind holding on to as a DH who can actually play in the field every now and then.

thomas35forever
05-07-2008, 10:46 PM
That ship has sailed. Dye has a NTC, Thome is pretty much untradeable this year, and Kong is a 5 and 10 guy.

Crede has some limited value, but teams havent been giving a whole lot for a rental and with the Boras factor that is a negative as well.

The only items of value is Swisher, Quentin, Fields, and the pitching from a value for value standpoint. Trading any of our starting pitching outside of Contreras is foolish.

As it looks, we had an opportunity last year and we made a commitment and now we have to ride it out.
You hit the nail on the head. Like it or not, this heart of the order is going to stay here throughout the season and probably next season too. I don't even know what to make of Crede anymore, but he needs to ride the season out here so Fields can learn how to play third in Charlotte. We can't trade our rotation except maybe Contreras and if you want to rebuild, you need young players to start with and the above players mentioned are them. Sorry, but we're stuck with the team we're seeing right now until the last day of the season.

DickAllen72
05-07-2008, 10:48 PM
I don't even know what to make of Crede anymore, but he needs to ride the season out here so Fields can learn how to play third in Charlotte.
BTW, Fields went on the DL today with tendonitis in the right patela.

QCIASOXFAN
05-07-2008, 10:55 PM
I agree. Bring me in some younger position players I can be excited about, some guys who slap the ball and hit for average. I love all the players we have now, but its pretty clear that they can't be consistent enough scoring and manufacturing runs.

Jurr
05-07-2008, 11:03 PM
The Sox spent years saying "this team is about to erupt. The offense will get hot." Never happened, because the basic construction of the roster was flawed.

Same damn situation here.

Tragg
05-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Williams knew the window too rebuild was last year. He couldn't cut any deals in July, so he reversed field. He thought he could trade Crede and maybe URibe in the spring - not even close.
Maybe we need to rebuild, but I don't see much young talent coming our way in return. From where will we get young position players? And will Ozzie even play them if we get them? Or develop them? Doubtful on both counts.

Jaysox
05-07-2008, 11:08 PM
This team needs an enema.

"Experts" kept saying that the Sox should have begun their rebuilding project this season, stating that since the WS, they have been trying to add veteran free agent talent to get back to the big stage. It's just my opinion, and you may think I'm out of line, but I believe that the team needs overhauled from the offensive side.

This team needs a bit more athleticism. They need less pull hitters, and more offensive players with speed and the ability to hit for average. The thing that worries me is the fact that the lineup is loaded with high priced sluggers and lacking future talent. While the Twins are trading pitchers for young multi-tooled players (Young, Gomez, etc.), the Sox are trading pitchers for 34 year old shortstops. Even if Cabrera ends up producing what he did last year, did it give you any long term advantage? Nope.

You've got exciting young players such as Owens, Fields, Swisher, Quentin, and Ramirez. Crede is incredible at third. Throw in some promising young pitchers like Broadway, Floyd, and Danks, and you see that the rotation has a chance. Right now, some of our young talent is sitting on the bench while overpriced sluggers are plodding around with nothing to prove.

One thing about the '05 Sox was the hunger they possessed. Everett and Dye had the injury red flag. Add Hernandez to that group. Contreras was a certifiable head case. Pods was coming off of a subpar sophomore season. Pierzynski was a castoff. The team came together to win.

This team has a bunch of thirty-somethings that have their contracts in hand and show an utter lack of ability to stem the tide of a bad slump. They just hang their heads and make (or steal) a paycheck. It needs to stop.

Let the kids play. Ship off Dye, Thome, and Konerko for a group of talented players that can build a new era of Sox baseball.

I love all of the guys on this roster. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the guys that came in and caught lightning in a bottle to bring Chicago a WS title. Since July of '06 the team has been 30 games under. It's not getting any better. Add to that fact that there are NO signs of improvement. Get some players up here that are hungry to win and are "dumb" enough to shake off a bad game or two and come out fighting. This team definitely isn't.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to find any takers right now. But I wish we could start right now.

Parrothead
05-07-2008, 11:10 PM
MB is back...nice outing Mark. Maybe St. Louis would take him now.Maybe for Pujolos.

sox1970
05-07-2008, 11:16 PM
MB is back...nice outing Mark. Maybe St. Louis would take him now.

It's an interesting thought. If the Sox fall out of it in July, he'd certainly waive it to go to St. Louis. Not sure who would be attractive to get back.

soxfan44
05-07-2008, 11:30 PM
This team needs an enema.

"Experts" kept saying that the Sox should have begun their rebuilding project this season, stating that since the WS, they have been trying to add veteran free agent talent to get back to the big stage. It's just my opinion, and you may think I'm out of line, but I believe that the team needs overhauled from the offensive side.

This team needs a bit more athleticism. They need less pull hitters, and more offensive players with speed and the ability to hit for average. The thing that worries me is the fact that the lineup is loaded with high priced sluggers and lacking future talent. While the Twins are trading pitchers for young multi-tooled players (Young, Gomez, etc.), the Sox are trading pitchers for 34 year old shortstops. Even if Cabrera ends up producing what he did last year, did it give you any long term advantage? Nope.

You've got exciting young players such as Owens, Fields, Swisher, Quentin, and Ramirez. Crede is incredible at third. Throw in some promising young pitchers like Broadway, Floyd, and Danks, and you see that the rotation has a chance. Right now, some of our young talent is sitting on the bench while overpriced sluggers are plodding around with nothing to prove.

One thing about the '05 Sox was the hunger they possessed. Everett and Dye had the injury red flag. Add Hernandez to that group. Contreras was a certifiable head case. Pods was coming off of a subpar sophomore season. Pierzynski was a castoff. The team came together to win.

This team has a bunch of thirty-somethings that have their contracts in hand and show an utter lack of ability to stem the tide of a bad slump. They just hang their heads and make (or steal) a paycheck. It needs to stop.

Let the kids play. Ship off Dye, Thome, and Konerko for a group of talented players that can build a new era of Sox baseball.

I love all of the guys on this roster. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the guys that came in and caught lightning in a bottle to bring Chicago a WS title. Since July of '06 the team has been 30 games under. It's not getting any better. Add to that fact that there are NO signs of improvement. Get some players up here that are hungry to win and are "dumb" enough to shake off a bad game or two and come out fighting. This team definitely isn't.

Amen! I was jumped on big time a week ago for saying exactly what you just said.

I'll be interested to see how all the people in denial (and they know who they are) try to sprinkle their "it's still early" fairy dust over this big steaming pile of **** from tonight. It being early only means that the Sox have that many more games to SUCK ASS!

I too really like the guys from '05, but there's a really bad place in my heart that wants to see this team really, really, really suck in the first half so that Kenny will be forced to make the changes he should have made a year or two ago.

Garland was like having a huge gift card to go shopping for a couple prospects that were pretty close to the big leagues. KW WASTED that huge gift card on an over-the-hill SS who WE DON"T CONTROL, beyond this year.

KW did catch lightning in a bottle in '05. I'd like to see him take his bottle and leave this organIzation.

Tragg
05-07-2008, 11:40 PM
It's an interesting thought. If the Sox fall out of it in July, he'd certainly waive it to go to St. Louis. Not sure who would be attractive to get back.
We'd get something decent for MB.
It would still be selling low though. Everybody wants to trade players when they are sucking - and that's the time they have the least value to other teams.

sox1970
05-07-2008, 11:43 PM
We'd get something decent for MB.
It would still be selling low though. Everybody wants to trade players when they are sucking - and that's the time they have the least value to other teams.

Buehrle isn't that bad this year. He'd be attractive to the Cardinals.

Lip Man 1
05-08-2008, 12:00 AM
Jurr:

Not saying I disagree with you but it's not as black and white or as simple as you think.

You can "rebuild" in a one team market, you can "rebuild" in Pittsburgh for example but what do you think is going to happen if Kenny comes out tomorrow and decides to tell everyone that the Sox can no longer compete?

And remember he has stated that publicly on more then one occasion he'd do that (I'm assuming he's a man of his word...)

Attendance which has peaked at almost three million for the past three seasons could fall dramatically, radio / TV rights fees could drop, advertisers could desert the organization.

Can the Sox take the potential major financial hit? Would they even be willing to in the first place?

Again I'm not saying you are wrong, but winning the World Series changed the mentality of things.

Those factors have to be considered, it's a business remember and as someone else pointed out, it's not like there is a hell of a lot down on the farm, maybe three or four kids tops.

Lip

southsideirish71
05-08-2008, 12:03 AM
Jurr:

Not saying I disagree with you but it's not as black and white or as simple as you think.

You can "rebuild" in a one team market, you can "rebuild" in Pittsburgh for example but what do you think is going to happen if Kenny comes out tomorrow and decides to tell everyone that the Sox can no longer compete?

And remember he has stated that publicly on more then one occasion he'd do that (I'm assuming he's a man of his word...)

Attendance which has peaked at almost three million for the past three seasons could fall dramatically, radio / TV rights fees could drop, advertisers could desert the organization.

Can the Sox take the potential major financial hit? Would they even be willing to in the first place?

Again I'm not saying you are wrong, but winning the World Series changed the mentality of things.

Those factors have to be considered, it's a business remember and as someone else pointed out, it's not like there is a hell of a lot down on the farm, maybe three or four kids tops.

Lip

Attendance has dropped, and is dropping. Crappy play over the course of a year and a half will stop people from investing money to go to the ballpark. Kenny thought he could make a few changes, and presto the team would be competitive. His rebuild of the pitching staff was marvelous. However the hitting has just died.

LoveYourSuit
05-08-2008, 12:16 AM
Jurr:



Attendance which has peaked at almost three million for the past three seasons could fall dramatically, radio / TV rights fees could drop, advertisers could desert the organization.

Lip


I have been totally against re-build modes because of fear of losing the fan base it took so long to build up to where it peaked. But guess what, the fans do not like this team and are showing it big time at the gate. Attendance is down this year and will be down if we keep playing like crap.

Time to pull the plug. Go for it. The fan base is already lost now IMO. Look at the empy seats and look at the attitude by most of us on this board.

thomas35forever
05-08-2008, 12:26 AM
Attendance has dropped, and is dropping. Crappy play over the course of a year and a half will stop people from investing money to go to the ballpark. Kenny thought he could make a few changes, and presto the team would be competitive. His rebuild of the pitching staff was marvelous. However the hitting has just died.
Don't tell me we're gonna go back to how attendance was at the ballpark in the late '90s. That would look awful, but maybe not as much with green seats.

Lip Man 1
05-08-2008, 12:28 AM
South and Love:

Valid points, can't argue with them. I'm probably closer to the rebuilding mode myself and I absolutely, positively detest that word, but I just wanted to point out that doing so could have severe financially repercussions to the organization.

Right now Kenny is between a rock and a hard place and I don't envy him.

Lip

LoveYourSuit
05-08-2008, 12:33 AM
South and Love:

Valid points, can't argue with them. I'm probably closer to the rebuilding mode myself and I absolutely, positively detest that word, but I just wanted to point out that doing so could have severe financially repercussions to the organization.

Right now Kenny is between a rock and a hard place and I don't envy him.

Lip

Lip,

I think not bailing out on this $110 million + pay roll full of dead weight ASAP will create tons more financial issues for the future if the gate coninues to suffer with a crap product.

You are so right about rock and a hard place.

hi im skot
05-08-2008, 12:36 AM
BLOW IT UP KENNY!

(teal is implied)

southsideirish71
05-08-2008, 12:36 AM
South and Love:

Valid points, can't argue with them. I'm probably closer to the rebuilding mode myself and I absolutely, positively detest that word, but I just wanted to point out that doing so could have severe financially repercussions to the organization.

Right now Kenny is between a rock and a hard place and I don't envy him.

Lip

The decision to rebuild was at the trading deadline of last year.

We have this team for this year, with minimal trade-able property.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2008, 06:20 AM
Whether you call it re-building or re-loading or whatever, this team starts with a great core of excellent starting pitching, an elite closer, and a very good set-up man.

Dump Dye and Thome for marginal prospects, and let Cabrera and Uribe leave as free agents. Now there's money to re-sign Crede.

Crede, Ramirez, Richar, Konerko is a good defensive infield, with power at the corners and speed up the middle. No question AJ is the catcher.

RF Quentin, LF Swish and CF BA is a very good defensive OF. Even if BA only hits .240, it also features decent speed and power.

Fields is a capable MLB power hitter at DH, and he also has the speed to steal a 15-20 bases.

There's also plenty of money left over to upgrade several positions if needed.

Railsplitter
05-08-2008, 06:30 AM
No arguments from me, Jurr

Craig Grebeck
05-08-2008, 07:40 AM
Whether you call it re-building or re-loading or whatever, this team starts with a great core of excellent starting pitching, an elite closer, and a very good set-up man.

Dump Dye and Thome for marginal prospects, and let Cabrera and Uribe leave as free agents. Now there's money to re-sign Crede.

Crede, Ramirez, Richar, Konerko is a good defensive infield, with power at the corners and speed up the middle. No question AJ is the catcher.

RF Quentin, LF Swish and CF BA is a very good defensive OF. Even if BA only hits .240, it also features decent speed and power.

Fields is a capable MLB power hitter at DH, and he also has the speed to steal a 15-20 bases.

There's also plenty of money left over to upgrade several positions if needed.
We'd lose over 100 games.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2008, 07:53 AM
We'd lose over 100 games.

Well, we lost 90 with the 3-4-5 of Thome, Paulie and Dye.

cws05champ
05-08-2008, 08:06 AM
It's an interesting thought. If the Sox fall out of it in July, he'd certainly waive it to go to St. Louis. Not sure who would be attractive to get back.
Colby Rasmus....

Craig Grebeck
05-08-2008, 08:12 AM
This team needs an enema.

"Experts" kept saying that the Sox should have begun their rebuilding project this season, stating that since the WS, they have been trying to add veteran free agent talent to get back to the big stage. It's just my opinion, and you may think I'm out of line, but I believe that the team needs overhauled from the offensive side.

This team needs a bit more athleticism. They need less pull hitters, and more offensive players with speed and the ability to hit for average. The thing that worries me is the fact that the lineup is loaded with high priced sluggers and lacking future talent. While the Twins are trading pitchers for young multi-tooled players (Young, Gomez, etc.), the Sox are trading pitchers for 34 year old shortstops. Even if Cabrera ends up producing what he did last year, did it give you any long term advantage? Nope.

You've got exciting young players such as Owens, Fields, Swisher, Quentin, and Ramirez. Crede is incredible at third. Throw in some promising young pitchers like Broadway, Floyd, and Danks, and you see that the rotation has a chance. Right now, some of our young talent is sitting on the bench while overpriced sluggers are plodding around with nothing to prove.

One thing about the '05 Sox was the hunger they possessed. Everett and Dye had the injury red flag. Add Hernandez to that group. Contreras was a certifiable head case. Pods was coming off of a subpar sophomore season. Pierzynski was a castoff. The team came together to win.

This team has a bunch of thirty-somethings that have their contracts in hand and show an utter lack of ability to stem the tide of a bad slump. They just hang their heads and make (or steal) a paycheck. It needs to stop.

Let the kids play. Ship off Dye, Thome, and Konerko for a group of talented players that can build a new era of Sox baseball.

I love all of the guys on this roster. I have a very soft spot in my heart for the guys that came in and caught lightning in a bottle to bring Chicago a WS title. Since July of '06 the team has been 30 games under. It's not getting any better. Add to that fact that there are NO signs of improvement. Get some players up here that are hungry to win and are "dumb" enough to shake off a bad game or two and come out fighting. This team definitely isn't.
...one of these does not belong...

Richar is in there somewhere.

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:02 AM
...one of these does not belong...

Richar is in there somewhere.

If we did start rebuilding...I think this is the "core" you stick with:

Pitchers: Vazquez, Buehrle, Floyd, Danks (I think you preserve the rotation...it can keep you competitive...maybe even a contender through the process), Jenks, Thornton, Logan, Wassermann, Massett. Mix in Broadway and Russell.

Position Players: Owens , Anderson, Quentin, Fields, Ramirez, Richar, Getz.

We'd need a good young catcher...and probably another good young OF and IF, and one or two more good bullpen arms. So if we traded our veterans...that's what I would focus on getting in return.

As far as DH and 1B goes...you can always find veteran help at these two positions....so I wouldn't make them a priority.

Trade bait for the deadline: Linebrink, Dotel, Crede, Cabrera, Uribe, Konerko, Thome, Dye, Swisher, Contreras, AJ. An awful lot of long term contracts, NTCs, impending free agency, and 5/10 issues involved in trying to get anything for these guys. Swisher and AJs deals probably make them the best trade bait.

Craig Grebeck
05-08-2008, 09:06 AM
If we did start rebuilding...I think this is the "core" you stick with:

Pitchers: Vazquez, Buehrle, Floyd, Danks (I think you preserve the rotation...it can keep you competitive...maybe even a contender through the process), Jenks, Thornton, Logan, Wassermann, Massett. Mix in Broadway and Russell.

Position Players: Owens , Anderson, Quentin, Fields, Ramirez, Richar, Getz.

We'd need a good young catcher...and probably another good young OF and IF, and one or two more good bullpen arms. So if we traded our veterans...that's what I would focus on getting in return.

As far as DH and 1B goes...you can always find veteran help at these two positions....so I wouldn't make them a priority.

Trade bait for the deadline: Linebrink, Dotel, Crede, Cabrera, Uribe, Konerko, Thome, Dye, Swisher, Contreras, AJ. An awful lot of long term contracts, NTCs, impending free agency, and 5/10 issues involved in trying to get anything for these guys. Swisher and AJs deals probably make them the best trade bait.

How the hell do you justify keeping Owens and trading Swisher? That makes no sense. Swisher is signed to a fantastic deal and is 100x the player Owens is. I am so confused.

voodoochile
05-08-2008, 09:12 AM
White flagging a season in the first week of May when the team is two games out of first after a bad 3 week run offensively is simply stupid.

Jurr
05-08-2008, 09:18 AM
How the hell do you justify keeping Owens and trading Swisher? That makes no sense. Swisher is signed to a fantastic deal and is 100x the player Owens is. I am so confused.
Swisher is definitely a guy you want to keep, and if he's put in the right spot in the lineup (3 or 5), he's going to be FINE.

The pitching staff is solid, and has the potential to be outstanding. If KW wants to return to the form that actually worked, he starts by maintaining the integrity of this rotation, save possibly Contreras.

Stick Swisher in right. Quentin plays left. Owens and Anderson should get ample opportunities to fight out the center field position. Someone needs a SS in this league. Find out what you can do with Cabrera before he walks. Let Ramirez take SS and learn the game. As soon as Fields gets back from the DL, get him some time at first in Charlotte. The players that the Sox could move would net at least a solid handful of players. Someone needs a power hitting first baseman. Someone would be interested in Thome.

The goal is to make the playoffs. This team is not looking playoff worthy. If you aren't going to accomplish your goal, you begin to change the system as early as possible to ensure that the delay between the next contending ballclub is minimal.

hi im skot
05-08-2008, 09:19 AM
White flagging a season in the first week of May when the team is two games out of first after a bad 3 week run offensively is simply stupid.

:thumbsup:

russ99
05-08-2008, 09:21 AM
These calls for rebuilding are a bit ridiculous.

First off, do we really want to go back to a 90-100 loss "Kids can play" team with a one third full stadium again??

Kenny's doing this the right way. He's gradually making the team younger while keeping the status quo as far as salary, contending status, overall interest and attendence.

As long as he keeps bringing in younger talented players like Quentin, Swisher and Ramirez (and also Danks, Floyd, Owens, Fields and possibly Richar from last year) and phases out the older players slowly as they decline, we'll be fine.

Also, why on earth would we deal our catcher who's hitting .290 and is signed relatively cheaply for the next 2 years?

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:22 AM
How the hell do you justify keeping Owens and trading Swisher? That makes no sense. Swisher is signed to a fantastic deal and is 100x the player Owens is. I am so confused.

I stick with Owens because we're rebuilding and it's worth giving him a shot and seeing what he can do. Not real optimistic there...that's why I said we need another OF. I'm just not impressed with Swisher so far...and he's a career .250 hitter....if we're rebuilding...I don't think the rah-rah, belly flopping bull**** is going to mean anything to this club. The reality is that he is one of our ONLY veterans that have any real value on the market because of his contract. Most of the others are virtually untradeable.

Jurr
05-08-2008, 09:23 AM
White flagging a season in the first week of May when the team is two games out of first after a bad 3 week run offensively is simply stupid.
Voodoo. Come on, bro! I want to believe in this roster as much as anybody, but the core of the team is aging, lacks versatility, and isn't dominant enough to justify the price you pay for the future of the franchise. This team gained early momentum at the cost of the Tigers mostly, a team that was very bad out of the gates. The Sox are now showing that early energy to be fool's gold.

I'm not saying that they should just go ahead and start the fire sale now, but if this team ends May with a record 10 games below .500, the work should begin. It's just smart. It's going to suck for this year, but the payoff could be stellar down the road. Letting "the kids play" in '98 led to the division title in '00. It takes time, but the potential payoff is worth it. Sox fans are smart, and they know when something just ain't right.

Lillian
05-08-2008, 09:24 AM
I agree that this team is too slow, and too dependant on the long ball.
However, I don't think that age is our biggest problem. To put it into better perspective, it might be interesting to note how the Tigers match up with us in age. Here are the ages of some of their key players compared to the three Sox guys in this discussion:

RF Maggs 34 Dye 34 Yes, they're the same age!
1B Guillen 33 Konerko 32
DH Sheffield 40 Thome 38

Moreover, look at the age of some of their other key players:

Renteria 33
Polanco 33 That's their middle infield.
I-Rod 37 And he's catching!
Rogers 43
Todd Jones 40

If age is a problem for us, it is really an obstacle for the Tigers.
I think that Thome should still be able to produce this year, and since his contract is up, there's no need to move him.

I've long been advocating trying to trade P. K. for more speed, but it's probably too late now, given his start, and this "No Trade" rights.

voodoochile
05-08-2008, 09:25 AM
Voodoo. Come on, bro! I want to believe in this roster as much as anybody, but the core of the team is aging, lacks versatility, and isn't dominant enough to justify the price you pay for the future of the franchise. This team gained early momentum at the cost of the Tigers mostly, a team that was very bad out of the gates. The Sox are now showing that early energy to be fool's gold.

I'm not saying that they should just go ahead and start the fire sale now, but if this team ends May with a record 10 games below .500, the work should begin. It's just smart. It's going to suck for this year, but the payoff could be stellar down the road. Letting "the kids play" in '98 led to the division title in '00. It takes time, but the potential payoff is worth it. Sox fans are smart, and they know when something just ain't right.

What if the team ends May 10 games over .500?

In other words, ask me again at the end of May, but I doubt my answer will change much before July...

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:26 AM
Swisher is definitely a guy you want to keep, and if he's put in the right spot in the lineup (3 or 5), he's going to be FINE.



A few points from my perspective:

I'm not advocating rebuilding (yet)...I was responding to the hypothetical.
You have to look closer at the market than "someone needs..."...the market is contenders (maybe 40% of the teams in July?) who have a specific need at that particular position.
If Swisher is your #3 hitter....your team sucks.

Optipessimism
05-08-2008, 09:27 AM
We are rebuilding. Look at the roster. Quentin in LF, Floyd and Danks in the rotation, Alexei Ramirez and BA are actually getting a few AB's, Richar or Getz, if not both, will play at 2B this year, plus we have some youth in the pen.

A good year from Contreras and he's gone for prospects IMO. Orlando Cabrera is a FA after this year and will bring Type A compensation which we sorely need if he doesn't sign longterm.

Crede is a FA after this year too, but could he also be a Type A with a good year? The Elias Bureau I know goes by a two year average, but I don't know how it works with injuries. If it just goes by stats, a good year in '08 shouldn't weigh him down that much because of his limited AB's in '07. Do they go back to a previous year if an injury occurs? Because if that's the case his 2006 was good enough. He'll at least be Type B with a good year which will net us something if he sticks all year and isn't dealt.

Then you have Thome's option which is up in the air. Konerko and Dye are tradeable. If one of those three aren't brought back it opens up extra opportunities for Fields, Anderson, Owens, and Ramirez if no one else is brought in.

Uribe, Hall, and Pablo all come off the books with Owens, Bourgeois, Getz, Lucy, and Armstrong candidates to make the bench at the minimum as well as Fields. Broadway, if he's not dealt by then, will be on the opening day roster in some capacity. Egbert should be ready then too if he's not now, and if Jose is dealt, it wouldn't surprise me to see them both on the '09 opening day roster.

If the Sox do fall out early again, these are the guys I'd expect to be on the block:

Contreras
Uribe
Ozuna
Hall
MacDougal
Thornton
Crede
Cabrera

ondafarm
05-08-2008, 09:29 AM
I think starting with management/ coaching is also important. OG hasn't shown that he can deal with rookies in any sense of the word.

russ99
05-08-2008, 09:34 AM
Crede is a FA after this year too, but could he also be a Type A with a good year? The Elias Bureau I know goes by a two year average, but I don't know how it works with injuries. If it just goes by stats, a good year in '08 shouldn't weigh him down that much because of his limited AB's in '07. Do they go back to a previous year if an injury occurs? Because if that's the case his 2006 was good enough. He'll at least be Type B with a good year which will net us something if he sticks all year and isn't dealt.

As I recall the draft compensation formula is over 3 years. If he keeps up his numbers, Crede will likely be a Type-A, since his abbreviated 2007 was propped up by an incredible 2006.

Dye and Konerko aren't as tradeable as you think they are. Paulie probably won't give up his 10/5's, except maybe to go to California, and Dye's got a NTC until October 30th.

Also, I'd think if Thome can't get on track the rest of the season, he'd retire before moving to another team.

russ99
05-08-2008, 09:35 AM
I think starting with management/ coaching is also important. OG hasn't shown that he can deal with rookies in any sense of the word.

Oh yeah. Let's fire Guillen and Williams cause they can't deal with rookies.

Sheesh. Looks like you didn't experience the late 80's as a Sox fan. I did and have no desire to see that again.

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:37 AM
contending status,

It's been a valiant effort...but I'm not sure it's worked.

2nd Half of 2006: 37-44
2007: 72-90
2008: 15-17 (projects to 76-86)

We're two months away from a full two seasons of <.500 performance.

russ99
05-08-2008, 09:38 AM
It's been a valiant effort...but I'm not sure it's worked.

2nd Half of 2006: 37-44
2007: 72-90
2008: 15-17 (projects to 76-86)

We're two months away from a full two seasons of <.500 performance.

Do you really think it's 2007 all over again??

Or are we forgetting how good this team looked only 2 weeks ago. We have the talent to break out of this slump. 2 of 3 against the Twins would be a nice start.

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:39 AM
Also, why on earth would we deal our catcher who's hitting .290 and is signed relatively cheaply for the next 2 years?

Because he's one of the few guys anyone would want. It would be great to keep him...but if you want to plug the holes and get some young talent in return you have to bring him into the equation.

voodoochile
05-08-2008, 09:41 AM
It's been a valiant effort...but I'm not sure it's worked.

2nd Half of 2006: 37-44
2007: 72-90
2008: 15-17 (projects to 76-86)

We're two months away from a full two seasons of <.500 performance.

Right, for different reasons every time, but by all means, lets just lump it all together because it makes a nice soundbite.

Of course if the Sox end up 44-37 at the halfway mark, then it's a different thing isn't it?

Why the rush to trade off players this early i the season when no one is shopping anyway? Selling low on top end sluggers is a stupid way to run a franchise.

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:44 AM
Do you really think it's 2007 all over again??

Or are we forgetting how good this team looked only 2 weeks ago. We have the talent to break out of this slump. 2 of 3 against the Twins would be a nice start.

No I'm not forgetting...I'm just looking at the results that the team has generated for almost TWO YEARS. I hope we turn it around and believe it's possible...but there are many disturbing signs about this team right now.

russ99
05-08-2008, 09:44 AM
Because he's one of the few guys anyone would want. It would be great to keep him...but if you want to plug the holes and get some young talent in return you have to bring him into the equation.

Catcher is a tough position to fill, and we have a good one. Who's to say the Sox could get a good enough talent in return to outweigh the production and pitcher handling we'd get by having to start Lucy or Armstrong as our catcher for 3-4 years.

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:47 AM
Right, for different reasons every time, but by all means, lets just lump it all together because it makes a nice soundbite.

Of course if the Sox end up 44-37 at the halfway mark, then it's a different thing isn't it?

Why the rush to trade off players this early i the season when no one is shopping anyway? Selling low on top end sluggers is a stupid way to run a franchise.

Geez...I don't like the results of the team...it's been complete hell. For 22 months I've been hoping this team will turn it around. Other than two "false spring" Aprils...they haven't delivered. Two years of this performance is a real trend...first time since 1998-1999 that we'll have played this poorly over this long of a stretch.

Again...I'm addressing the "hypothetical" and assume all the trade activity would take place near the deadline in July.

voodoochile
05-08-2008, 09:52 AM
Geez...I don't like the results of the team...it's been complete hell. For 22 months I've been hoping this team will turn it around. Other than two "false spring" Aprils...they haven't delivered. Two years of this performance is a real trend...first time since 1998-1999 that we'll have played this poorly over this long of a stretch.

Again...I'm addressing the "hypothetical" and assume all the trade activity would take place near the deadline in July.

Hey, if this team is a dog and hopelessly out of it in late July, I don't mind exploring the options.

I agree it's been a bad run and I too am frustrated, but I hate lumping three seasons worth of bad results together when they have different explanations.

This thread also isn't about waiting until the deadline, IMO. It's title alone seems to imply that now is the time to start tearing things down and looking to the future. Something about the "should happen sooner rather than later" part of said title leads me to believe that.

That's the part I am replying to. If you personally meant something else, then you too probably don't agree with the premise of this thread.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2008, 09:52 AM
I'm not advocating rebuilding. I'm advocating reloading, either on the fly (if 2008 tanks) or this offseason.

I like 4/5ths of the rotation. I like Jenks and Linebrink. AJ is fine.

I like an OF of Swisher, Quentin and Anderson.

I want to keep Crede and Paulie. Fields proved his MLB power and can DH.

Ramirez and either Richar or Getz are the keystone combo.

Subtract Uribe $4.5M, Cabrera $10M, Thome $15M, Dye $9.5M, and you save anywhere from $30M - $34M on payroll (depending on how the cash from the Phillies and Angels has been distributed). That allows you to match any offer for Crede (who is now a legit #5/#6 hitter) and still have plenty to lock up Jenks, plus upgrade at several positions. There's even more money to upgrade elsewhere if Broadway can replace Contreras.

TomBradley72
05-08-2008, 09:53 AM
Catcher is a tough position to fill, and we have a good one. Who's to say the Sox could get a good enough talent in return to outweigh the production and pitcher handling we'd get by having to start Lucy or Armstrong as our catcher for 3-4 years.

AJ is only traded if you can get a good catching prospect as part of this overall strategy.

spiffie
05-08-2008, 10:06 AM
Jurr:

Not saying I disagree with you but it's not as black and white or as simple as you think.

You can "rebuild" in a one team market, you can "rebuild" in Pittsburgh for example but what do you think is going to happen if Kenny comes out tomorrow and decides to tell everyone that the Sox can no longer compete?

And remember he has stated that publicly on more then one occasion he'd do that (I'm assuming he's a man of his word...)

Attendance which has peaked at almost three million for the past three seasons could fall dramatically, radio / TV rights fees could drop, advertisers could desert the organization.

Can the Sox take the potential major financial hit? Would they even be willing to in the first place?

Again I'm not saying you are wrong, but winning the World Series changed the mentality of things.

Those factors have to be considered, it's a business remember and as someone else pointed out, it's not like there is a hell of a lot down on the farm, maybe three or four kids tops.

Lip
I wonder how much value the team gets out of being fringe contenders or middle of the pack. I feel like the last few years have proven that all it takes is a few months in first place to shoot attendance up regardless of prior year performance. I guess the question for the Sox would be what is more beneficial financially over a few years, a straight line of bad-to slightly above average performance, or a bigger dip followed by a higher peak. I tend to think the benefit of a great year outweighs a couple of mediocre years, esp. with the possibility of playoff revenues factored in, but I could be wrong.

southsideirish71
05-08-2008, 10:10 AM
I'm not advocating rebuilding. I'm advocating reloading, either on the fly (if 2008 tanks) or this offseason.

I like 4/5ths of the rotation. I like Jenks and Linebrink. AJ is fine.

I like an OF of Swisher, Quentin and Anderson.

I want to keep Crede and Paulie. Fields proved his MLB power and can DH.

Ramirez and either Richar or Getz are the keystone combo.

Subtract Uribe $4.5M, Cabrera $10M, Thome $15M, Dye $9.5M, and you save anywhere from $30M - $34M on payroll (depending on how the cash from the Phillies and Angels has been distributed). That allows you to match any offer for Crede (who is now a legit #5/#6 hitter) and still have plenty to lock up Jenks, plus upgrade at several positions. There's even more money to upgrade elsewhere if Broadway can replace Contreras.

Anderson will never be a starter on this team. He should be in AAA getting ABs or he should be moved. This has nothing to do with Anderson love, or what. Isn't put in as a defensive specialist check. Gets only one AB in the blowout, check. Doesn't get in the getaway lineup, check. If he isnt going to play, then he is a waste on the roster and we need to move him so we can get someone that will play. Ramirez is leading off today. The same Ramirez that should be in AAA starting right now.

Craig Grebeck
05-08-2008, 10:17 AM
I'm not advocating rebuilding. I'm advocating reloading, either on the fly (if 2008 tanks) or this offseason.

I like 4/5ths of the rotation. I like Jenks and Linebrink. AJ is fine.

I like an OF of Swisher, Quentin and Anderson.

I want to keep Crede and Paulie. Fields proved his MLB power and can DH.

Ramirez and either Richar or Getz are the keystone combo.

Subtract Uribe $4.5M, Cabrera $10M, Thome $15M, Dye $9.5M, and you save anywhere from $30M - $34M on payroll (depending on how the cash from the Phillies and Angels has been distributed). That allows you to match any offer for Crede (who is now a legit #5/#6 hitter) and still have plenty to lock up Jenks, plus upgrade at several positions. There's even more money to upgrade elsewhere if Broadway can replace Contreras.

On what planet?

Optipessimism
05-08-2008, 10:22 AM
I'm not advocating rebuilding. I'm advocating reloading, either on the fly (if 2008 tanks) or this offseason.

I like 4/5ths of the rotation. I like Jenks and Linebrink. AJ is fine.

I like an OF of Swisher, Quentin and Anderson.

I want to keep Crede and Paulie. Fields proved his MLB power and can DH.

Ramirez and either Richar or Getz are the keystone combo.

Subtract Uribe $4.5M, Cabrera $10M, Thome $15M, Dye $9.5M, and you save anywhere from $30M - $34M on payroll (depending on how the cash from the Phillies and Angels has been distributed). That allows you to match any offer for Crede (who is now a legit #5/#6 hitter) and still have plenty to lock up Jenks, plus upgrade at several positions. There's even more money to upgrade elsewhere if Broadway can replace Contreras.

OR

You can subtract another around $8mil or so of Crede, Hall, and Ozuna as well, then you'd theoretically have enough money left over to sign:

CC Sabathia to add to the front of the rotation
Adam Dunn as a DH to replace Thome
Juan Cruz to fill in as a longman/set-up man

Of course that wouldn't happen as Sabathia is going to get at least a 5 year contract and the Sox never go that high, but still, that's a lot of money for improvement. I'd love to see Dunn and Cruz here though.

Paulwny
05-08-2008, 10:31 AM
So much for the belief in "chemistry" and "we are family" that was tossed around earlier in the season. " Chemistry doesn't help an individual hit a ball, etc.
As Daver said many years ago , ~ " You want chemistry shove a Bunsen Burner up a few asses". I totally agree.

Optipessimism
05-08-2008, 10:33 AM
Anderson will never be a starter on this team. He should be in AAA getting ABs or he should be moved. This has nothing to do with Anderson love, or what. Isn't put in as a defensive specialist check. Gets only one AB in the blowout, check. Doesn't get in the getaway lineup, check. If he isnt going to play, then he is a waste on the roster and we need to move him so we can get someone that will play. Ramirez is leading off today. The same Ramirez that should be in AAA starting right now.

No, no, no. If Anderson goes to Charlotte then that means Owens is called up. And knowing Ozzie, in that scenario it's just a matter of time before he benches a struggling Swisher to start Owens in CF. Then Owens will hit a few singles, and he'll steal a few bases, and suddenly he's out there every day. And it's nothing against Jerry, either. If he had an arm it would be fine, but he doesn't, so it's not.

Thome25
05-08-2008, 10:51 AM
I think starting with management/ coaching is also important. OG hasn't shown that he can deal with rookies in any sense of the word.

Our sorry farm system hasn't given him any that really warrant playing time......and the ones that do deserve playing time KW clogs up their progression by building this team he currently has.

LITTLE NELL
05-08-2008, 10:54 AM
How much longer do we have to wait to bring up Owens, we have to try something different. I posted last week to bring Owens up and platoon Dye and Thome at DH. Its time.

doublem23
05-08-2008, 11:55 AM
I think starting with management/ coaching is also important. OG hasn't shown that he can deal with rookies in any sense of the word.

He's sure screwed up Danks and Floyd. Man, they suck.