PDA

View Full Version : When Do The Offensive Woes Start Becoming KW's Fault?


Thome25
05-07-2008, 01:48 PM
Yeah, we scored some runs last night which was definitely a good thing. But, something occurred to me. When do we start blaming KW for the offensive woes we've been having since the second half of 2006?

After all, he is the one who built this team full of players who are playing out of position (Dye should be DH, Swisher is a corner outfielder, and Uribe is not a second baseman IMHO.) and hitting out of order. (Swisher is not a leadoff guy.)

He also has a tendency to build White Sox teams full of slow, lumbering, old, injury prone, slump prone, home run hitting sluggers.

That philosophy didn't work in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007......It's time for KW to stop building teams full of these types (mentioned above) of sluggers. (KW may or may not have been the GM during ALL of these years but, you get my point.)

That's AT LEAST 7 seasons where the "mash the hell outta the ball or nothing" philosophy hasn't worked.

I've seen people on here blaming Ozzie (myself included) and Greg Walker for our offensive struggles. But shouldn't it (at least partially) be KW's fault?

What do you think?

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 01:51 PM
What do you think?

I think you are nuts.

kittle42
05-07-2008, 01:51 PM
They already are.

delben91
05-07-2008, 01:53 PM
At what point do the offensive woes stop being Walker, Guillen, and KW's fault and start being the player's fault?

Corlose 15
05-07-2008, 01:53 PM
Dye is fine in right field, Swisher has been above average in CF so far, and Uribe has been exceptional at 2B.


The only person really out of position in the batting order was Swisher and nobody was bitching when he was taking walks. KW added talent and OBP potential to a team that had horrible numbers last year, the fact that they haven't hit yet doesn't fall on him.

VeeckAsInWreck
05-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Dye is fine in right field, Swisher has been above average in CF so far, and Uribe has been exceptional at 2B.


The only person really out of position in the batting order was Swisher and nobody was bitching when he was taking walks. KW added talent and OBP potential to a team that had horrible numbers last year, the fact that they haven't hit yet doesn't fall on him.

Agreed.

The team hit a rough stretch this past week and everyone wants to have a fire sale. There is still plenty of season left and no one is running away with the AL Central.

KW is doing a fine job.

WhiteSox5187
05-07-2008, 02:05 PM
I often wonder why Kenny gets a free pass as well. Judging from "itsnotrequired"'s response even questioning if KW should be held accountable is "nuts." It's too early to start assessing blame to anyone and this might yet be a playoff team and if it is, Kenny looks like a genius just like he did in '05. But, there is the small chance that this could be a 90 loss team and then Kenny winds up looking like an idiot. If this is another 90 loss year I think Kenny should be held accountable and fired (he's been here seven years and we've only had one playoff appearence, I'm forever grateful for '05 but I'd like more than one playoff appearence every seven years). Having said that, Kenny will never be fired because Jerry doesn't fire people. He's only fired two GMs, one was Roland Hemond who might have been one of the best GMs in Sox history, the other was Larry Himes who more or less built the dominant Sox teams of the early 1990s (and also destroyed the Cubs organization, so those are two reasons to like Himes!). He didn't even fire Hawk (though he probably would have). It's Kenny's job as long as he wants it.

soxfan13
05-07-2008, 02:05 PM
Just wondering how playing out of defensive position affects the offense.:scratch:

rdwj
05-07-2008, 02:08 PM
Just wondering how playing out of defensive position affects the offense.:scratch:

The fewer runs you give, the fewer you have to get.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Just wondering how playing out of defensive position affects the offense.:scratch:

Just pointing out why IMO this team is built wrong.

FedEx227
05-07-2008, 02:10 PM
I often wonder why Kenny gets a free pass as well. Judging from "itsnotrequired"'s response even questioning if KW should be held accountable is "nuts." It's too early to start assessing blame to anyone and this might yet be a playoff team and if it is, Kenny looks like a genius just like he did in '05. But, there is the small chance that this could be a 90 loss team and then Kenny winds up looking like an idiot. If this is another 90 loss year I think Kenny should be held accountable and fired (he's been here seven years and we've only had one playoff appearence, I'm forever grateful for '05 but I'd like more than one playoff appearence every seven years). Having said that, Kenny will never be fired because Jerry doesn't fire people. He's only fired two GMs, one was Roland Hemond who might have been one of the best GMs in Sox history, the other was Larry Himes who more or less built the dominant Sox teams of the early 1990s (and also destroyed the Cubs organization, so those are two reasons to like Himes!). He didn't even fire Hawk (though he probably would have). It's Kenny's job as long as he wants it.

Well INR typically does PR work for the Sox on here so don't take that with more than a grain of salt. But I agree, 7 years 1 playoff trip and a destroyed farm system, you should be held accountable one way or the other.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 02:11 PM
The fewer runs you give, the fewer you have to get.


Good point!!

Thome25
05-07-2008, 02:12 PM
Agreed.

The team hit a rough stretch this past week and everyone wants to have a fire sale. There is still plenty of season left and no one is running away with the AL Central.

KW is doing a fine job.

This has been going on for alot longer than a week. It's been happening since the 2nd half of 2006.

Chicken Dinner
05-07-2008, 02:12 PM
We're 1 game out in the first week of May, How can you blame anyone at this point.

WhiteSox5187
05-07-2008, 02:13 PM
Well INR typically does PR work for the Sox on here so don't take that with more than a grain of salt. But I agree, 7 years 1 playoff trip and a destroyed farm system, you should be held accountable one way or the other.
Well Kenny's MO with the Sox has always been to win, if the Sox are competitve this year, I wouldn't object to him staying on. And if the Sox do some how by the grace of God make the playoffs, Kenny looks like a genius and should definately stay on and I'll have to eat a lot of crow for blasting his moves in the off season (something I'll gladly do). But if they fall apart again and lose 90, he should go. But I don't think a Sox failure to get the playoffs this year should result in his dismissal, but it should certainly put a lot of pressure on him to deliever in '09.

SoxGirl4Life
05-07-2008, 02:16 PM
We're 1 game out in the first week of May, How can you blame anyone at this point.
:screwloose:

Thome25
05-07-2008, 02:16 PM
At what point do the offensive woes stop being Walker, Guillen, and KW's fault and start being the player's fault?

Blaming the players only goes so far. It's a long season and players go into slumps. Home run hitting especially goes cold during the course of a long season.

That's why you can't have 2/3 of your lineup swinging for the HR all the time. Worst case scenario they all go into a slump at the same time......which was what happened in the past week.

voodoochile
05-07-2008, 02:16 PM
September

Thome25
05-07-2008, 02:24 PM
I think you are nuts.

Now that's a well thought out, intelligent response. :rolleyes:

MisterB
05-07-2008, 02:26 PM
We're 1 game out in the first week of May, How can you blame anyone at this point.

If there's one thing I've learned, it that Sox fans can blame anyone for anything at any point.

Craig Grebeck
05-07-2008, 02:27 PM
He has built an offense superior to any he has had since taking over. I appreciate what he did.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 02:30 PM
Now that's a well thought out, intelligent response. :rolleyes:

What would you like me to say? KW doesn't make the lineup so trying to pin batting order problems on KW is absurd.

KW has put together a fine team. There is nothing really wrong with the pieces that Ozzie and the rest of the coaching staff have been given. It is up to the players and the staff to make things happen.

Why not blame Reinsdorf for the problems? After all, he hired KW. Probably should blame his mom as well.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 02:33 PM
What would you like me to say? KW doesn't make the lineup so trying to pin batting order problems on KW is absurd.

KW has put together a fine team. There is nothing really wrong with the pieces that Ozzie and the rest of the coaching staff have been given. It is up to the players and the staff to make things happen.

Why not blame Reinsdorf for the problems? After all, he hired KW. Probably should blame his mom as well.

Now that's more like it!!:D:...I've been on here a while and you usually have a good, well-thought out response to things.

You don't have to agree with me.....you DO have a right to your opinion....just tell me why you don't agree.....that is the reason I started this thread after all.

Daver
05-07-2008, 02:43 PM
I blame the fans.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 02:47 PM
I blame the fans.

They should be fired.

kittle42
05-07-2008, 02:51 PM
We're 1 game out in the first week of May, How can you blame anyone at this point.

Because we should be about 4 up, not 1 out. You have to take advantage of the wounded opposition while they are down.

skottyj242
05-07-2008, 02:51 PM
They should be fired.

I tried walking into the game last night and my ticket wouldn't scan. They told me I was let go.

LoveYourSuit
05-07-2008, 02:52 PM
They should be fired.

:rolleyes:

Wow, one dumb response then responded by another one.

What the hell to the fans have to do with the team's hitting woes?

Only thing we do is pay for their hefty salaries, is that the fault you see?

Hitmen77
05-07-2008, 02:54 PM
He also has a tendency to build White Sox teams full of slow, lumbering, old, injury prone, slump prone, home run hitting sluggers.




Who fits this description? Only Thome and maybe Dye? Konerko isn't old and injury prone. If these 3 guys were hitting their career norms in terms of avg and power, we wouldn't be too worried about their slow footedness.

OC and Swisher don't fit any of these descriptions (though they sure are slumping right now). Quentin was unproven going into the season, but he doesn't fit any of these description and has been great for us.

AJ is slow, but it's hard to find a catcher who isn't. Plus, he's one of the few guys in our lineup who has been halfway decent offensively.

Crede is slow and has back issues, but wasn't acquired by KW. Also, would we be better off with Fields in the lineup right now?

Uribe sucks - I have nothing else to say about him except that we'll see what happens when Richar comes back.

soxfan13
05-07-2008, 02:56 PM
The fewer runs you give, the fewer you have to get.

That hasnt exactly worked out the past week.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 03:11 PM
Who fits this description? Only Thome and maybe Dye? Konerko isn't old and injury prone. If these 3 guys were hitting their career norms in terms of avg and power, we wouldn't be too worried about their slow footedness.

Yes Thome and Dye fit the old and/or injury prone description.


OC and Swisher don't fit any of these descriptions (though they sure are slumping right now). Quentin was unproven going into the season, but he doesn't fit any of these description and has been great for us.


That's why I stated in an earlier post that 2/3 of our lineup fit the slow, lumbering, injury prone, slump prone, home run hitting slugger description. Swisher, Cabrera, and Quentin do not fit this description.

2/3 of the lineup swinging for the fences and not executing good, fundamental, situational hitting is a bad thing IMHO.

Crede is slow and has back issues, but wasn't acquired by KW. Also, would we be better off with Fields in the lineup right now?

There's only one way to find out if we're better off with Fields and that's to play him. Even though KW inherited Crede.....it was his choice to keep him as part of the team philosophy of "Mash, Mash, Mash the hell outta the ball and knock it as far over the fence as possible."

For the record, I thought it was a good idea to keep Crede and I wanted him re-signed after this season as well. He's a masher but, he's also a gold glove caliber 3B. IMO that cancels the masher tag out.

Uribe sucks - I have nothing else to say about him except that we'll see what happens when Richar comes back.

He is prime suspect #1 in my 1st post.

delben91
05-07-2008, 03:15 PM
Blaming the players only goes so far. It's a long season and players go into slumps. Home run hitting especially goes cold during the course of a long season.

That's why you can't have 2/3 of your lineup swinging for the HR all the time. Worst case scenario they all go into a slump at the same time......which was what happened in the past week.

I see your point, but high average/high OBP players can slump just as sluggers can. There may be validity to the argument that they slump less often or for a shorter duration, but such a statistical analysis is beyond my meager fan brain.

I guess my point is that even a team full of average/OBP type players can still underperform, so while the GM has the responsiblity to put together a team that may slump least often, at the end of the day, if the players don't perform, it's all moot.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 03:24 PM
:rolleyes:

Wow, one dumb response then responded by another one.

What the hell to the fans have to do with the team's hitting woes?

Only thing we do is pay for their hefty salaries, is that the fault you see?

I wish I was dead.

turners56
05-07-2008, 03:31 PM
The slump isn't Kenny's fault, the players can hit, they showed you yesterday, it's the approach that matters. Crede and Dye looked like they were hunting for base hits yesterday, not home runs.

I think everybody in the lineup got way too homer happy on the road trip, but came up swinging at air every single time. It's like a domino effect, if a couple of guys start trying to hit the home run with no avail, other guys will start thinking, "Hey, these guys aren't doing their job, I should just carry this team on my back by jacking one right here." Instead, they come up striking out, grounding out, or popping out.

There wasn't many instances on that roadtrip where it looked like guys were trying to just get a single, it was like, "I need to jack this one out to be the hero." That's my theory on why the whole team kind of stopped hitting and walking in Toronto and Minnesota. The Dome Syndrome could also be a possible theory to investigate.

Daver
05-07-2008, 03:35 PM
I wish I was dead.

Beware what you wish for.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 03:37 PM
I see your point, but high average/high OBP players can slump just as sluggers can. There may be validity to the argument that they slump less often or for a shorter duration, but such a statistical analysis is beyond my meager fan brain.

I guess my point is that even a team full of average/OBP type players can still underperform, so while the GM has the responsiblity to put together a team that may slump least often, at the end of the day, if the players don't perform, it's all moot.

That's a good point. If the players don't perform then it's on management if they do, then the players themselves get credit.

It's up to management to put players and coaches in a position to succeed. As of right now, I don't feel like KW has done that with this team or going all the way back to the second half of 2006 and probably before that.

Hopefully the 2008 White Sox will turn it around and this whole discussion will be a moot point.

You're right that players who hit for a high avg./OBP slump during a long season too but, it's alot harder for them to go stone cold than a masher IMO.

For example,(and I'm NOT trying to make this into a "I wish it was 2005 again argument".) If the HR hitters were slumping, the White Sox could scratch out some runs with the pitch performances they've been getting by walking, getting a stolen base, bunting the runner over, and then getting a sac fly.

Or hitting a double instead and bunting the runner over then getting the sac fly.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 03:40 PM
Beware what you wish for.

I wish LoveYourSuit loved me as much as he loves someone elses suit.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 03:45 PM
It's up to management to put players and coaches in a position to succeed. As of right now, I don't feel like KW has done that with this team or going all the way back to the second half of 2006 and probably before that.

How has KW put the team at a disadvantage?

Thome25
05-07-2008, 03:47 PM
How has KW put the team at a disadvantage?


Have you watched the second half of 2006 until now? Now go back and re-read my first post and that's how we're at a disadvantage.

The makeup of this offense is all wrong.....it's too one-dimentional.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 03:52 PM
Have you watched the second half of 2006 until now? Now go back and re-read my first post and that's how we're at a disadvantage.

The makeup of this offense is all wrong.....it's too one-dimentional.

What does the second half of 2006 have to do with KW? How did he not put the players and coaches in positions to succeed?

VeeckAsInWreck
05-07-2008, 03:59 PM
Have you watched the second half of 2006 until now?

So by that rationale the first half of 2006 was a good one. Which was also played by the team that KW had assembled.

Thing is, Kenny has been bringing in players that he believes will make a difference. 2006 is a great example. The team looked great in the first half then they stumbled. How is that KW's fault? At that point you have to look at the players.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 04:03 PM
What does the second half of 2006 have to do with KW? How did he not put the players and coaches in positions to succeed?

KW is the architect of this team.....therefore the makeup of the offense is his doing......hence he's the reason we're too one-dimentional offensively.

We have too much of an all-or-nothing offense. All OG and the coaching staff need is some guys who know how to play good fundamental baseball......they don't always need the HR mentality.

We're not the '27 Yankees. KW needs to stop trying to build a lineup of HR hitters similar to them.

Analogy: All we need is a good rifle (High AVG/OBP guys) to go to target practice and KW keeps giving us a freaking bazooka (HR HITTERS) to blow EVERYTHING out of the water.

Another analogy: KW gives OG a .357 Magnum (HR Hitters) to go to a knife fight with. Well eventually that .357 is gonna run out of bullets and somebody's gonna get stabbed.

How many HR hitters becomes overkill when you're building a team? He should put together a more well-rounded team.

KW for some reason has had this philosophy for far too long going all the way back to 2006 and longer.

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 04:07 PM
Another analogy: KW gives OG a .357 Magnum (HR Hitters) to go to a knife fight with. Well eventually that .357 is gonna run out of bullets and somebody's gonna get stabbed.

What happens when the knife gets dull?

Lip Man 1
05-07-2008, 04:09 PM
It's to early to know what's going to happen this season.

I do agree with some of the points about the "home run or nothing" philosophy and the inability to give Ozzie the type of team he wants (Ozzie was quoted a few times this past off season directly as saying 'he was tired of the solo home runs, tired of the strikeouts and tired of the only way to score runs is to hit the ball out of the park') so there does appear to be some disconnect between Kenny and Ozzie.

If the Sox were to have another season like in 2007 and if the team fails to hit then I think the heat will be turned up on Kenny. He's the G.M. and fair or unfair that burden falls upon him.

Those in position of authority will have to decide if making the playoffs once, winning the World Series and having five winning seasons outweighs only making the playoffs once and having (if this scenario played out) back to back losing seasons. Also what they draw should this season take a downturn, could also be a major factor.

Plus Kenny himself appears to be the type of person, who if things are going south will basically say that maybe there needs to be a change. He's pretty honest about things.

Still a lot to be played out however before this thread question moves more to the forefront.

Lip

turners56
05-07-2008, 04:10 PM
Have you watched the second half of 2006 until now? Now go back and re-read my first post and that's how we're at a disadvantage.

The makeup of this offense is all wrong.....it's too one-dimentional.

So you're one of those people who say the Jim Thome for Aaron Rowand deal was terrible?

voodoochile
05-07-2008, 04:10 PM
Have you watched the second half of 2006 until now? Now go back and re-read my first post and that's how we're at a disadvantage.

The makeup of this offense is all wrong.....it's too one-dimentional.

What does Mark Buehrle and Jose Contreras both putting up ERA's close to 7 in the second half of 2006 have to do with this year?

What does last year's debacle most of which has been turned over have to do with this year's team?

Are you honestly suggesting that removing stiffs like Erstad, Terrero, Cintron, Mackowiak and pods was a bad thing?

You see effect, but you seem to be missing on the cause factor. This isn't 2007's team anymore than it is 2005's team.

What happened last year has no effect on this years team and with 5 new starters (including Uribe at 2B) it's simply silly to say, "well because of last year, we suck this year and thus it's KW's fault."

LoveYourSuit
05-07-2008, 04:12 PM
I wish LoveYourSuit loved me as much as he loves someone elses suit.


Now that was funny!

Thome25
05-07-2008, 04:16 PM
So you're one of those people who say the Jim Thome for Aaron Rowand deal was terrible?


Hindsight is 20/20. I'm a big Jim Thome fan and at the time I felt like it was the right move....but, I'm not one of the ones with "Aaron Rowand man-love"

As of right now it looks like the wrong move. IMO though Swisher will end up being better for the White Sox than Rowand ever was. WTS, I think Swisher is better suited as a corner outfielder or 1B.

voodoochile
05-07-2008, 04:17 PM
Another analogy: KW gives OG a .357 Magnum (HR Hitters) to go to a knife fight with. Well eventually that .357 is gonna run out of bullets and somebody's gonna get stabbed.
What happens when the knife gets dull?

First time I've ever seen any person ever advocating for bringing a knife to a fight over a gun.

Here's what happens in that situation, Thome25:

10 guys on one side whip out knives.

9 guys on the other side whip out knives and one guy whips out a .357 magnum.

One of the first 10 guys starts talking trash and promptly gets a bullet between the eyes. Second guy shows a small amount of bravado and spits to show his disdain for the shooter who promptly puts a bullet through the spitter's front teeth blowing his brains all over the guy behind him.

Shooter points the gun at another guy and that guy has brains and takes off running followed quickly by the next 7 guys.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 04:17 PM
What does Mark Buehrle and Jose Contreras both putting up ERA's close to 7 in the second half of 2006 have to do with this year?

What does last year's debacle most of which has been turned over have to do with this year's team?

Are you honestly suggesting that removing stiffs like Erstad, Terrero, Cintron, Mackowiak and pods was a bad thing?

You see effect, but you seem to be missing on the cause factor. This isn't 2007's team anymore than it is 2005's team.

What happened last year has no effect on this years team and with 5 new starters (including Uribe at 2B) it's simply silly to say, "well because of last year, we suck this year and thus it's KW's fault."

Multiple things went wrong in 2006 and 2007 but, we're talking offense in this thread and that doesn't change the fact that KW's philosophy when it comes to offense is "HR or bust."

voodoochile
05-07-2008, 04:20 PM
Multiple things went wrong in 2006 and 2007 but, we're talking offense in this thread and that doesn't change the fact that KW's philosophy when it comes to offense is "HR or bust."

You're wrong, but don't let that stop your from continuing your rant.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 04:51 PM
You're wrong, but don't let that stop your from continuing your rant.

That's your opinion.....and that's fine. But, why when someone has an opinion that isn't in the mainstream is it almost always considered a rant?

No ranting here......just a personal opinion albeit an unpopular one at that.:D:

voodoochile
05-07-2008, 06:20 PM
That's your opinion.....and that's fine. But, why when someone has an opinion that isn't in the mainstream is it almost always considered a rant?

No ranting here......just a personal opinion albeit an unpopular one at that.:D:

No, dude the minute you jumped the shark into guns and knife fights, you definitely were ranting...:tongue:

Frater Perdurabo
05-07-2008, 07:01 PM
So you're one of those people who say the Jim Thome for Aaron Rowand deal was terrible?

I do NOT think it was terrible.

I've posted elsewhere that I thought that the Thome - Rowand deal was a good one for the Sox, and the Sox should have bitten the bullet and taken the risk and picked up Frank Thomas' option, and that they should have let Paul Konerko leave as a free agent. Then they still should have made the Marte for Mackowiak deal, and used Mack at first base until Thomas came back, and then platooned Thome and Thomas between 1B and DH, with Mackowiak getting some starts at 1B as well. Paulie had a great 2006, but so did Thome (especially early) and so did Frank (especially later in the season).

santo=dorf
05-07-2008, 07:04 PM
Are you honestly suggesting that removing stiffs like Erstad, Terrero, Cintron, Mackowiak and pods was a bad thing?

Who brought those "stiffs" in, and what was the reasoning behind it? I recall some nonsense about a "grinder effect."

Frontman
05-07-2008, 07:29 PM
Question: When Do The Offensive Woes Start Becoming KW's Fault?
Answer: when he's the one in the batters box.

Next question.

http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/images/king_3.jpg

VeeckAsInWreck
05-07-2008, 07:42 PM
Question: When Do The Offensive Woes Start Becoming KW's Fault?
Answer: when he's the one in the batters box.



Bravo! :sunshine:

Tragg
05-07-2008, 08:15 PM
That philosophy didn't work in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007......It's time for KW to stop building teams full of these types (mentioned above) of sluggers. (KW may or may not have been the GM during ALL of these years but, you get my point.)

That's AT LEAST 7 seasons where the "mash the hell outta the ball or nothing" philosophy hasn't worked.

I've seen people on here blaming Ozzie (myself included) and Greg Walker for our offensive struggles. But shouldn't it (at least partially) be KW's fault?

What do you think?
Most of those teams had good offenses -not perfect offenses, but good ones. Williams isn't perfect. But, I blame Ozzie and I see no reason to stop - he's the one putting bad hitters atop the order, calling horrendous hitters ".400 quality", loading the team with utility-level talent, not doing much of a job developing young offensive talent, deeming Carlos Quentin 3rd string behind Ramirez and Owens and on and on.

Madscout
05-07-2008, 08:18 PM
I do NOT think it was terrible.

I've posted elsewhere that I thought that the Thome - Rowand deal was a good one for the Sox, and the Sox should have bitten the bullet and taken the risk and picked up Frank Thomas' option, and that they should have let Paul Konerko leave as a free agent. Then they still should have made the Marte for Mackowiak deal, and used Mack at first base until Thomas came back, and then platooned Thome and Thomas between 1B and DH, with Mackowiak getting some starts at 1B as well. Paulie had a great 2006, but so did Thome (especially early) and so did Frank (especially later in the season).

Fixed it for ya. If you think Thomas and Thome could stay healthy all year while taking DH and 1B, you are out of your freaking mind, as well as them being better both defensively than PK. Fantasy Baseball =/= Real Baseball, hence the "Fantasy" in "Fantasy Baseball".

Dan Mega
05-07-2008, 08:26 PM
Any business that doesn't hold management accountable for anything will ultimately fail. I'm sure it wasn't Isiah's fault either that the Knicks were destroyed, for he wasn't the one playing on the court.

Heck, if I hired a bunch of analysts that all ended up sucking at once, don't hold me and the project managers accountable. A CEO would laugh my face and then have his hired goons make me disappear into the night with the quickness.

fquaye149
05-07-2008, 08:29 PM
When do the offensive woes start becoming KW's fault?

They either are his fault or they aren't. Either you're going to say his acquisitions and non-moves are good and didn't execute, or that they were bad and we shouldn't have expected them to execute.

There's no middle ground.

I personally think KW did a fine job, and that it's not his fault that Thome's hitting nearly .100 under his career avg, or that Swisher's hitting nearly .050 under his.

But even if Swisher and Thome never get a hit again, it's either Kenny's fault now or it's not his fault now.

FedEx227
05-07-2008, 10:28 PM
Who brought those "stiffs" in, and what was the reasoning behind it? I recall some nonsense about a "grinder effect."


Exactly... we're giving him credit for getting rid of Erstad, Cintron and Mack...who the hell acquired these "grinders"??

Jurr
05-07-2008, 10:36 PM
When do the offensive woes start becoming KW's fault?

They either are his fault or they aren't. Either you're going to say his acquisitions and non-moves are good and didn't execute, or that they were bad and we shouldn't have expected them to execute.

There's no middle ground.

I personally think KW did a fine job, and that it's not his fault that Thome's hitting nearly .100 under his career avg, or that Swisher's hitting nearly .050 under his.

But even if Swisher and Thome never get a hit again, it's either Kenny's fault now or it's not his fault now.
His problem is the fact that he tied too much money into older players that have begun to play under their career averages. You have to sell high and buy low to win. Some players you show loyalty towards. You can't do it for everybody, and it's killing the Sox.

Madscout
05-07-2008, 10:43 PM
His problem is the fact that he tied too much money into older players that have begun to play under their career averages. You have to sell high and buy low to win. Some players you show loyalty towards. You can't do it for everybody, and it's killing the Sox.

3 of the 4 winners of the last 4 world series have done the opposite.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 10:47 PM
When do the offensive woes start becoming KW's fault?

They either are his fault or they aren't. Either you're going to say his acquisitions and non-moves are good and didn't execute, or that they were bad and we shouldn't have expected them to execute.

There's no middle ground.

I personally think KW did a fine job, and that it's not his fault that Thome's hitting nearly .100 under his career avg, or that Swisher's hitting nearly .050 under his.

But even if Swisher and Thome never get a hit again, it's either Kenny's fault now or it's not his fault now.

It was a hypothetical question....as in "We're blaming Ozzie, Walker, The Players, Southpaw When do we start blaming KW?"

He's the one who put this thing together. He's AT LEAST partially to blame in my book.

It's not as black and white, cut and dry as you're making it out to be. This thing has been snowballing for a while now and we need to put some of the blame on KW now.

After all, he was the one who constructed this plodding, hr or nothing offense. KW seems to have this philosophy that he wants to build the second coming of the '27 Yankees......and it hasn't worked for a while now.

Who else is to blame for building this offense? KW that's who.

Jurr
05-07-2008, 10:49 PM
3 of the 4 winners of the last 4 world series have done the opposite.
Yeah..Epstein overhauled the roster in a couple of years. In the book Feeding the Monster, he took a lot of flak for pushing to get the younger talent on the field. He knew that the team probably wouldn't be a contender in '06, but things would be better in the future.
What resulted was a good mix of older and younger talent. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon and co. helped the Red Sox win another WS. Of course the payroll helps, but the idea worked. You have to have multiple ways to score. The Sox don't, and the contracts that they are married to might really hurt.

Bill Naharodny
05-07-2008, 10:54 PM
So by that rationale the first half of 2006 was a good one. Which was also played by the team that KW had assembled.

Thing is, Kenny has been bringing in players that he believes will make a difference. 2006 is a great example. The team looked great in the first half then they stumbled. How is that KW's fault? At that point you have to look at the players.

Well, he is paid to put together a team for a whole season, I think.

I give credit where it's due, I think. So far, Kenny's work with the starting staff looks good. But I think Thome25 has a point about the offense. His point about guys playing out of position was, I think, an effort to say that we have guys with "big guy" offensive games in positions where you'd sometimes like to see the "little guy" skills.

So a team like last year's Red Sox, for example, has Manny and Ortiz, but they also have a second basemen with an OBP, line-drive hitter's mentality and centerfielder like Ellsbury, who had some speed. I believe that's the kind of balance that makes teamwide slumps a little less frequent. And I think Williams has failed to really build that balance, even though both Ozzie and he have ended the last 2 seasons saying they wanted it. This, I think, is a fair critique of the way the team was put together on the offensive side.

Jurr
05-07-2008, 11:05 PM
Well, he is paid to put together a team for a whole season, I think.

I give credit where it's due, I think. So far, Kenny's work with the starting staff looks good. But I think Thome25 has a point about the offense. His point about guys playing out of position was, I think, an effort to say that we have guys with "big guy" offensive games in positions where you'd sometimes like to see the "little guy" skills.

So a team like last year's Red Sox, for example, has Manny and Ortiz, but they also have a second basemen with an OBP, line-drive hitter's mentality and centerfielder like Ellsbury, who had some speed. I believe that's the kind of balance that makes teamwide slumps a little less frequent. And I think Williams has failed to really build that balance, even though both Ozzie and he have ended the last 2 seasons saying they wanted it. This, I think, is a fair critique of the way the team was put together on the offensive side.
Perfectly said, and a damning criticism of the makeup of the roster, as well as a perfect excuse to scrap this travesty ASAP.

Tragg
05-07-2008, 11:12 PM
The Sox have 4 bad hitting middle infielders on the roster. That is absolutely senseless. That certainly is part Williams' fault, but it is also Ozzie who is insisting on it....and who is using one of them at leadoff.
Ozzie's doing exactly what he's did last year....when times get tough he is putting MORE emphasis on hitters who hit like Ozzie hit.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 11:17 PM
The Sox have 4 bad hitting middle infielders on the roster. That is absolutely senseless. That certainly is part Williams' fault, but it is also Ozzie who is insisting on it....and who is using one of them at leadoff.
Ozzie's doing exactly what he's did last year....when times get tough he is putting MORE emphasis on hitters who hit like Ozzie hit.

What are Ozzie's other options at leadoff? Uribe? NO...Ozuna? PLEASE NO...Konerko? HELL NO.

That's part of my point.....KW isn't giving Ozzie a well-rounded offensive roster to work with.

And when the HR hitting isn't working Ozzie tries to go to something else which is the slap hitting.....which we all know doesn't work but, what other options has KW given him on this piss poor roster?

BadBobbyJenks
05-07-2008, 11:18 PM
I blame the Cy young award winners like Livan Hernandez we have to face every single night. You think we would run into a 5th starter every once in a while.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 11:19 PM
I blame the Cy young award winners like Livan Hernandez we have to face every single night. You think we would run into a 5th starter every once in a while.


Against our offense every starter looks like a Cy Young winner.....especially the 5th starter no one has ever heard of.

Jurr
05-07-2008, 11:23 PM
Against our offense every starter looks like a Cy Young winner.....especially the 5th starter no one has ever heard of.
Know why? Well, it's because there isn't much thinking involved. You follow the same recipe that has beaten the Sox in every season since '01 (save the '05 season).......throw your offspeed junk and watch 'em pull it all into the dirt or harmlessly to the outfield.

The Sox bragged in '05 about forcing the roster to change approaches. The garbage is back.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2008, 11:27 PM
Any business that doesn't hold management accountable for anything will ultimately fail. I'm sure it wasn't Isiah's fault either that the Knicks were destroyed, for he wasn't the one playing on the court.

Heck, if I hired a bunch of analysts that all ended up sucking at once, don't hold me and the project managers accountable. A CEO would laugh my face and then have his hired goons make me disappear into the night with the quickness.And that is ultimately the only way KW is at fault for this offense. Greg Walker has been an unmitigated failure, yet has kept his job. This team has a lot of talent. Not only is everybody hitting below their career averages, they are hitting WELL below their career averages. Walker's style of coaching (having the players watch tape of themselves hitting tape-measured homers to try to get their swing back) is not working. He is the biggest constant in this failure.

Whether or not you think he is the main reason for the offense being terrible for nearly two whole seasons (and I think he is), there comes a time when you have to make a change. He could be the best hitting coach in the world, but if he can't connect with the 13 hitters on this team, he needs to be replaced. If his style of coaching is no longer effective with these particular players, either you trade all 13 hitters, or you fire Walker. I don't care how much the players like him. I don't care how comfortable they are with him. He deserves to be fired for his terrible performance. He needs to be fired to rattle the cages of the players and let them know their ass could be next.

There is a lot of loyalty within this front office, but I am surprised Kenny has been accepting of Walker's failures. This team is built to win. If they don't win because Walker's coaching failures, it ultimately falls on KW.

Tragg
05-07-2008, 11:32 PM
What are Ozzie's other options at leadoff? Uribe? NO...Ozuna? PLEASE NO...Konerko? HELL NO.

That's part of my point.....KW isn't giving Ozzie a well-rounded offensive roster to work with.

And when the HR hitting isn't working Ozzie tries to go to something else which is the slap hitting.....which we all know doesn't work but, what other options has KW given him on this piss poor roster?
Swisher still has a 2008 OBP of .340. Putting him in the 7 hole and putting a hitter with a 2008 OBP below .300 (not to mention a .320 career obp) for more than 1 game or so at leadoff is ridiculous. So is Uribe starting at 2b.
It's exactly what Ozzie did last year. Erstad, who couldn't hit a lick, bat 1st and 2nd because he is "aggressive". When Ozzie was finally forced to play young talent, patient Richar bat 8th and 9th while swing at everything Owens hit 1st unabated.
Ozzie's the one who started Ramirez in CF and Uribe at 2b. He has an immense amount of influence on this roster.

Thome25
05-07-2008, 11:36 PM
And that is ultimately the only way KW is at fault for this offense. Greg Walker has been an unmitigated failure, yet has kept his job. This team has a lot of talent. Not only is everybody hitting below their career averages, they are hitting WELL below their career averages. Walker's style of coaching (having the players watch tape of themselves hitting tape-measured homers to try to get their swing back) is not working. He is the biggest constant in this failure.

Whether or not you think he is the main reason for the offense being terrible for nearly two whole seasons (and I think he is), there comes a time when you have to make a change. He could be the best hitting coach in the world, but if he can't connect with the 13 hitters on this team, he needs to be replaced. If his style of coaching is no longer effective with these particular players, either you trade all 13 hitters, or you fire Walker. I don't care how much the players like him. I don't care how comfortable they are with him. He deserves to be fired for his terrible performance. He needs to be fired to rattle the cages of the players and let them know their ass could be next.

There is a lot of loyalty within this front office, but I am surprised Kenny has been accepting of Walker's failures. This team is built to win. If they don't win because Walker's coaching failures, it ultimately falls on KW.

Someone PLEASE help me understand this mentality. If a bunch of grown men are slumping blame the COACHES. What it this little league all over again?

Never mind the fact that KW is the one who put this team together. Nevermind the fact that he chose a bunch of hitters that are basically a bunch of slump-prone, carbon copies of each other. Nevermind the fact that the architect built an extremely one-dimentional offense which can't really score runs in a variety of different ways.

KW tied the coaches hands in alot of ways because this offense need to be more well rounded and have more players on it's roster that can create runs in a variety of ways.

I'm not saying that we don't need HR's either. We don't need to go back and become the "Hitless Wonders" all over again.

But, if you want to blame someone....go all the way to the top....don't make a coach the scapegoat....after all the coaches have to deal with this sorry roster that KW assembled.

Tragg
05-07-2008, 11:38 PM
Someone PLEASE help me understand this mentality. If a bunch of grown men are slumping blame the COACHES. .
Wouldn't a good coach help a hitter pull out of a slump - quickly? isn't that one of the reasons to have them around?

itsnotrequired
05-07-2008, 11:44 PM
Someone PLEASE help me understand this mentality. If a bunch of grown men are slumping blame the COACHES. What it this little league all over again?

Never mind the fact that KW is the one who put this team together. Nevermind the fact that he chose a bunch of hitters that are basically a bunch of slump-prone, carbon copies of each other. Nevermind the fact that the architect built an extremely one-dimentional offense which can't really score runs in a variety of different ways.

KW tied the coaches hands in alot of ways because this offense need to be more well rounded and have more players on it's roster that can create runs in a variety of ways.

I'm not saying that we don't need HR's either. We don't need to go back and become the "Hitless Wonders" all over again.

But, if you want to blame someone....go all the way to the top....don't make a coach the scapegoat....after all the coaches have to deal with this sorry roster that KW assembled.

So you don't want to blame the coach, player or manager. You want to blame the GM.

:rolleyes:

BadBobbyJenks
05-07-2008, 11:53 PM
Call Cashman, Arod for Crede?

chisox59
05-08-2008, 12:52 AM
I've been thinking this same way myself. The difference between the two really good seasons we've had since 2001 until now had to do with Pods being on base. His speed allowed the middle of the order hitters to see more fastballs. The junk pitches didn't constantly get thrown to them because they were worried about him running. W've totally lost that dimension. Swisher may have a good OBP but he has no speed and therefore doesn't change a pitchers pattern. I also believe it changed the mindset of guys like Konerko who were taking pitches to right field more to get the run in. He didn't hit in that direction all last year and he hasn't so far this year. We had the same type of lineup in the years before 2005 and it got both Gary Ward and Von Joshua fired as hitting coaches because it was one dimensional and prone to the same kind of slump we're seeing now. I doubt that Charley Lau could convince Thome to go the other way agaainst the shift and become a base runner. It's Kenny's job to give us a top of the order to make things happen. Anyone remember "Ozzie Ball"? That hasn't been mentioned by the media since '05 because we don't have the tools to make it work. Not only don't we have these tools on the active roster there really isn't any help available from the minor leagues. Whose responsibility is that other than Kenny Williams and the rest of the front office? Owens and Richar both have speed but neither of them has shown an ability to have an OBP that is desired in a lead off man. Until we find one I don't think things will change offensively.

As for the playing of guys out of position that hurts the pitching and therefore impacts the team as a whole. Take a look at Sox history, specifically the 50's and early to mid 60's. The teams were built on pitching and defense and they found a way to win. Check the home run stats if you don't believe that's why they won.

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 12:56 AM
Well, he is paid to put together a team for a whole season, I think.

I give credit where it's due, I think. So far, Kenny's work with the starting staff looks good. But I think Thome25 has a point about the offense. His point about guys playing out of position was, I think, an effort to say that we have guys with "big guy" offensive games in positions where you'd sometimes like to see the "little guy" skills.

So a team like last year's Red Sox, for example, has Manny and Ortiz, but they also have a second basemen with an OBP, line-drive hitter's mentality and centerfielder like Ellsbury, who had some speed. I believe that's the kind of balance that makes teamwide slumps a little less frequent. And I think Williams has failed to really build that balance, even though both Ozzie and he have ended the last 2 seasons saying they wanted it. This, I think, is a fair critique of the way the team was put together on the offensive side.

So either blame him or don't.

He put the players on the team. He can't make lineup decisions or make players hit or coach them to hit.

So either RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a good offseason, or RIGHT NOW AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a bad offseason.

Make a ****ing decision. Go out on a ****ing limb and stake your claim. He either put the right guys on the field or the wrong guy. Hindsight is 20/20 but hindsight has very little to do with how a GM operates in the present

It just simply doesn't make sense to say "well we'll wait till ________ to see if we blame KW".

So if Swisher, on, say, August 16th is still hitting .220, that's KW's fault? Kenny should have EXPECTED a guy who has not hit .220 his entire career and is entering his peak years to have his worst season ever?

On the other hand, Swisher is hitting lousy now. If Swisher is hitting .390 on August 16th, Kenny should get extra credit for the trade?

No ****ing way. Kenny made his decisions based on the same things the rest of us know, plus a LITTLE extra scouting and personal interview time. It was either a good offseason or not. And that decision is made NOW. Or rather was made on, like March 3rd

Thome25
05-08-2008, 07:08 AM
So either blame him or don't.

He put the players on the team. He can't make lineup decisions or make players hit or coach them to hit.

So either RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a good offseason, or RIGHT NOW AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a bad offseason.

Make a ****ing decision. Go out on a ****ing limb and stake your claim. He either put the right guys on the field or the wrong guy. Hindsight is 20/20 but hindsight has very little to do with how a GM operates in the present

It just simply doesn't make sense to say "well we'll wait till ________ to see if we blame KW".

So if Swisher, on, say, August 16th is still hitting .220, that's KW's fault? Kenny should have EXPECTED a guy who has not hit .220 his entire career and is entering his peak years to have his worst season ever?

On the other hand, Swisher is hitting lousy now. If Swisher is hitting .390 on August 16th, Kenny should get extra credit for the trade?

No ****ing way. Kenny made his decisions based on the same things the rest of us know, plus a LITTLE extra scouting and personal interview time. It was either a good offseason or not. And that decision is made NOW. Or rather was made on, like March 3rd

Even if these guys get their AVGs, HR totals, and OBP up (and they will.) You can still blame KW for stocking this team full of players who are too one-dimentional offensively.

I'd like for the Sox to be able to score runs in a variety of different ways (including the HR.) Especially when the HR goes cold. KW didn't put players on this team who are looking to hit singles, lay a bunt down, or hit a line drive into the gap. He built a team full of mashers who want to hit the ball onto the outfield concourse every damn swing.

We still need to hit the HR....but this team is waiting back looking for it all the time because of the type of players we have. Who put said players on this team? KW

As BN stated in an earlier post, where are the guys looking for doubles and base hits? They're nowhere to be found because KW put a carbon copy HR hitter at almost every position.

And no I'm not advocating putting a team full of grinders out there but, KW should've given the fans and coaches a little more balance on this roster.

Hypothetically speaking, firing a coach for the offensive woes would be akin to firing Roger Bossard because Joe Crede made an error. The problem would go much deeper than how the grass was cut.

Likewise, the White Sox offensive problems go much deeper than the coaching staff. So yeah KW is to blame. (at least partially.)

itsnotrequired
05-08-2008, 08:26 AM
As BN stated in an earlier post, where are the guys looking for doubles and base hits? They're nowhere to be found because KW put a carbon copy HR hitter at almost every position.

Swisher: not a masher
Cabrera: not a masher
Thome: masher
Konerko: masher
Dye: masher
Pierzynski: not a masher (traditionally)
Crede: not a masher
Uribe: sucks at offense altogether
Quentin: not a masher

So you got mashers in the cleanup spots and non-mashers elsewhere. How exactly has KW stocked this team with one dimensional hitters again? Some of these players may be trying to hit HRs at this particular point in the season but they traditionally do not play that way. It isn't like there are nine Jim Thome's out there.

voodoochile
05-08-2008, 08:34 AM
So either blame him or don't.

He put the players on the team. He can't make lineup decisions or make players hit or coach them to hit.

So either RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a good offseason, or RIGHT NOW AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a bad offseason.

Make a ****ing decision. Go out on a ****ing limb and stake your claim. He either put the right guys on the field or the wrong guy. Hindsight is 20/20 but hindsight has very little to do with how a GM operates in the present

It just simply doesn't make sense to say "well we'll wait till ________ to see if we blame KW".

So if Swisher, on, say, August 16th is still hitting .220, that's KW's fault? Kenny should have EXPECTED a guy who has not hit .220 his entire career and is entering his peak years to have his worst season ever?

On the other hand, Swisher is hitting lousy now. If Swisher is hitting .390 on August 16th, Kenny should get extra credit for the trade?

No ****ing way. Kenny made his decisions based on the same things the rest of us know, plus a LITTLE extra scouting and personal interview time. It was either a good offseason or not. And that decision is made NOW. Or rather was made on, like March 3rd

You can't evaluate an off-season until the season that follows it is over.

They suck in May and are two games out of first doesn't mean they will be sucking in August/September and 10 games out of first.

Thome25
05-08-2008, 09:45 AM
Swisher: not a masher
Cabrera: not a masher
Thome: masher
Konerko: masher
Dye: masher
Pierzynski: not a masher (traditionally)
Crede: not a masher
Uribe: sucks at offense altogether
Quentin: not a masher

So you got mashers in the cleanup spots and non-mashers elsewhere. How exactly has KW stocked this team with one dimensional hitters again? Some of these players may be trying to hit HRs at this particular point in the season but they traditionally do not play that way. It isn't like there are nine Jim Thome's out there.


I used the word masher for lack of a better term.....we have too many one dimentional power hitters on this team and not enough "slump busters".

And by "slump busters" I mean players who can lay down a bunt, get hits by going the other way, get infield hits, hit line drives into the gap for doubles, and steal some bases.

We have too many power hitters at every postion (or guys trying to be power hitters) who try to pull the ball all the time.

It's almost like KW said to himself "I'm gonna hope the #1 and #2 hitters get on base and then the #3 and #4 guys hit a HR every game." That's not how a good offense works. You have to be more diverse than that.

As for Swisher, Cabrera, and Quentin.....Swisher is known for being a power hitter and he was batting leadoff. Quentin is borderline right now because he reminds me of a young Magglio or Carlos Lee. Cabrera is the only one in the lineup who doesn't really look like a power guy.

How many hitting coaches and coaching staffs in general do we have to go through before we strart blaming organizational phiosophy?

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 09:48 AM
You can't evaluate an off-season until the season that follows it is over.

They suck in May and are two games out of first doesn't mean they will be sucking in August/September and 10 games out of first.

I agree. However, Kenny will either have been long right or long wrong.

If the hitters start hitting, Kenny's offseason doesn't SUDDENLY become successful. We just AT THAT POINT realize that either

a.) He has already had a successful offseason by putting guys in place who can hit

b.) He put the wrong guys in place but they bailed him out by playing out of their minds.

Likewise, even if the guys never start hitting, that doesn't suddenly make his offseason unsuccessful.

He either did a good job or a bad job when he signed the last papers before ST started

ondafarm
05-08-2008, 09:56 AM
Someone PLEASE help me understand this mentality. If a bunch of grown men are slumping blame the COACHES. What it this little league all over again?
. . . .

Why? Because in Little League you are dealing with Little League pitchers. In the major leagues you are dealing with the craftiest deadliest pitching arms and cacthers and managers and advance scouts in the world. We aren't talking about hitting a softball, lobbed to you by an electrician. The opposition has a team of at least twenty baseball professionals who've been around the game for most likely 200 combined seasons or more. All of them working on one problem, getting three strikes on you.

You want to match wits with 20 professionals? They'll take you down everytime unless you've got a team of twenty guys helping you. The coaches has selected you, trained you and supposedly mentally prepared you for getting a hit. Players with proven track records of producing under different coaches should be seen as adequate hitters unless the coaches fail them.

Bill Naharodny
05-08-2008, 09:58 AM
So either blame him or don't.

He put the players on the team. He can't make lineup decisions or make players hit or coach them to hit.

So either RIGHT NOW, AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a good offseason, or RIGHT NOW AT THIS MOMENT, KW had a bad offseason.

Make a ****ing decision. Go out on a ****ing limb and stake your claim. He either put the right guys on the field or the wrong guy. Hindsight is 20/20 but hindsight has very little to do with how a GM operates in the present

It just simply doesn't make sense to say "well we'll wait till ________ to see if we blame KW".

So if Swisher, on, say, August 16th is still hitting .220, that's KW's fault? Kenny should have EXPECTED a guy who has not hit .220 his entire career and is entering his peak years to have his worst season ever?

On the other hand, Swisher is hitting lousy now. If Swisher is hitting .390 on August 16th, Kenny should get extra credit for the trade?

No ****ing way. Kenny made his decisions based on the same things the rest of us know, plus a LITTLE extra scouting and personal interview time. It was either a good offseason or not. And that decision is made NOW. Or rather was made on, like March 3rd

I'm not sure I'm following you here. I'm not saying to judge it now or later. I was responding to someone who said that Williams did a good job in 2006 because the team had a good first half and so we should put the blame on the players for the second half. So I think you need to direct your concern to whoever said that. It might have been you, actually, but I don't remember.

For the record, I've thought since the offseason that Williams didn't fix the offense. So, as far as that goes, I stated my position a long time ago. I think this team has a little more fight and leadership with Swisher and Cabrera. I liked that then, and I like it now. And the greater focus on OBP is important. But, no, not until he breakks up the 3-4-5, and puts some diversity in skill sets into this lineup would I really think he did a good job. That said, these guys are underperforming, and they, Guillen and Walker have to take some responsibility for that part of the problem.

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 10:06 AM
I'm not sure I'm following you here. I'm not saying to judge it now or later. I was responding to someone who said that Williams did a good job in 2006 because the team had a good first half and so we should put the blame on the players for the second half. So I think you need to direct your concern to whoever said that. It might have been you, actually, but I don't remember.

For the record, I've thought since the offseason that Williams didn't fix the offense. So, as far as that goes, I stated my position a long time ago. I think this team has a little more fight and leadership with Swisher and Cabrera. I liked that then, and I like it now. And the greater focus on OBP is important. But, no, not until he breakks up the 3-4-5, and puts some diversity in skill sets into this lineup would I really think he did a good job. That said, these guys are underperforming, and they, Guillen and Walker have to take some responsibility for that part of the problem.

Here's what I'm saying:

We can say that KW had a lousy offseason now, and if the Sox end up winning that will seem to prove that we were too hasty in our conclusion.

OR we can say that KW had a successful offseason now, and if the Sox continue to play miserably, that will seem to prove that we were too generous in our assessment.

However, it doesn't change whether Kenny did a good job or not. Either he did or didn't. Swisher has put up numbers in his career that have been acceptable. Now he's not. Either Kenny

a.) should have known that
b.) is not responsible for that
c.) Swisher will turn it around

Ditto to, say, Thome, Konerko, and Dye.

While we can ask ourselves "at what point will we be able to say with certainty that KW did a poor job assembling an offense?" it's silly to say "at what point does this offense become KW's fault?" since Kenny made his final move in terms of solidifying the offense months ago.

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2008, 10:14 AM
So you don't want to blame the coach, player or manager. You want to blame the GM.

:rolleyes:
Shouldn't they hold equal accountability? I mean the manager can only work with the talent that the GM provides, so if you have a GM who assembles a slow, station to station team for a manager that wants a team that can run and execute the fundamentals, well whose fault is that? Is it the manager for not being able to adapt? Or is it the GM for not assembling the kind of guys the manager would like?

I think if we're going to blame Ozzie (to a lesser extent Walker) then we also have to blame Kenny for bring in these slow, station to station power hitters. But, again, it's May. If the Sox make the playoffs I'll eat crow and give Kenny a TON of credit all of which will be deserved...and if they lose ninety again, well...Kenny's job should be in jeopardy.

GlassSox
05-08-2008, 10:21 AM
I am reading everyones frustrations and I really share the frustration.

I submit: If you run a business on "blame", you will surely fail.

A business needs to run on responsibilities, expectations, execution, and accountablility. You examine the operation starting at the top and work down. The results of a "business team" are measured against goals for this business team and not how good or bad some other business team is. You have to meet your own goals.

Ultimately the whole team succeeds or fails but also ultimately the accountability is from the top down.

soxfan21
05-08-2008, 11:15 AM
I don't know if it is really KW's fault or JR's, because JR is the one who give KW the money to spend on these guys. If JR stays cheap, especially in today's changing times, I don't think that we will have the absolute best players out there. But even when you have the best players that money can buy, that does not really guarantee anything. Look at the Yankees for the past few years, then look at our payroll in 2005. I think that something has to be done now though. I don't know if KW has to make moves if this team continues to slump or what. I am just getting so tired of seeing this team play below of how they are capable of playing.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2008, 11:19 AM
If JR stays cheap, especially in today's changing times, I don't think that we will have the absolute best players out there.

:rolleyes:

What do you mean by "cheap?" The Sox have one of the highest MLB payrolls.

Arguing that they have misspent their payroll is legitimate, but the Sox are not cheap.

itsnotrequired
05-08-2008, 11:25 AM
I am just getting so tired of seeing this team play below of how they are capable of playing.

This is the key statement. It isn't like the team is full of a bunch of terrible players or rookies with no track record of success. Sure, the team isn't fast or doesn't bunt well but they have the abilitiy to score lots of runs and win games. So much blames is trying to be placed on the coaches, managers, GM, owners, etc. How about these players start admitting they aren't getting the job done?

soxfan21
05-08-2008, 11:36 AM
:rolleyes:

What do you mean by "cheap?" The Sox have one of the highest MLB payrolls.

Arguing that they have misspent their payroll is legitimate, but the Sox are not cheap.

Maybe that's what I meant to say. I don't know, right now I am just really agitated at the way that this team is losing games right now. I guess it would be alright if we were losing some of these games but playing decent baseball, but right now we are playing like crap and it is just starting to get to me:(:.

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 11:39 AM
This is the key statement. It isn't like the team is full of a bunch of terrible players or rookies with no track record of success. Sure, the team isn't fast or doesn't bunt well but they have the abilitiy to score lots of runs and win games. So much blames is trying to be placed on the coaches, managers, GM, owners, etc. How about these players start admitting they aren't getting the job done?

Well, to a certain extent, HR (or GM in this case) has to be held accountable for not getting the guys who can produce at the level they ought to.

For instance, I have a hard time holding Kenny accountable for Thome flirting with the Mendoza line. HOWEVER, he should have suspected that Thome would probably be a less than dependable source of production.

There is some middle ground. He couldn't expect Swisher to hit this poorly, but he probably COULD HAVE suspected that Swisher wouldn't be an adequate leadoff option.

Thome25
05-08-2008, 11:47 AM
There is some middle ground. He couldn't expect Swisher to hit this poorly, but he probably SHOULD HAVE suspected that Swisher wouldn't be an adequate leadoff option.

There I fixed that for ya......and If he didn't KNOW that then he shouldn't be a Major League GM because there's fans who visit this site that knew that Swisher leading off probably isn't going to work out.

Also, it was a bad move to put him there and probably shouldn't have even been tried in the first place. Why set up your players and coaches to fail by experimenting like that?

Because he's KW the "Chuck Norris, under the radar ninja".....and he can do no wrong.:D:

itsnotrequired
05-08-2008, 11:52 AM
There I fixed that for ya......and If he didn't KNOW that then he shouldn't be a Major League GM becuase there's fans who visit this site that knew that Swisher leading off probably isn't going to work out.

Also, it was a bad move to put him there and probably shouldn't have even been tried in the first place. Why set up your players and coaches to fail by experimenting like that?

Because he's KW the Chuck Norris, under the radar ninja.....and he can do no wrong.:D:

What other options did KW have? Do you think he just threw his hands up and said "Well, all I have is Swisher. I guess my job is done!"

KW made the moves he COULD in the offseason to help the team. I personally feel he did as best as he could. He just can't demand players from other teams.

Thome25
05-08-2008, 11:59 AM
What other options did KW have? Do you think he just threw his hands up and said "Well, all I have is Swisher. I guess my job is done!"

KW made the moves he COULD in the offseason to help the team. I personally feel he did as best as he could. He just can't demand players from other teams.

I could name THREE off the top of my head.....(though I'm not advocating them.)

A.) He could've took a chance and resigned Pods (probably not a good idea but, better than Swisher leading off.)

B.) Coco Crisp could've been had and while not one of my favorite players he is probably a better option at leadoff than Swisher.

C.) Started Owens and seen what he could do once and for all.....while not a good option "on paper" he probably would be better at leadofff than Swisher in the longrun.

You mean to tell me he didn't see these 3 options? And he does this for a living? Give me a break. He could've (and should've) had any one of these guys.....and one of them is already on his roster!!

Craig Grebeck
05-08-2008, 12:01 PM
I could name THREE off the top of my head.....(though I'm not advocating them.)

A.) He could've took a chance and resigned Pods (probably not a good idea but, better than Swisher leading off.)

B.) Coco Crisp could've been had and while not one of my favorite players he is probably a better option at leadoff than Swisher.

C.) Started Owens and seen what he could do once and for all.....while not a good option "on paper" he probably would be better at leadofff than Swisher in the longrun.

You mean to tell me he didn't see these 3 options? And he does this for a living? Give me a break.
They are not better options than Swisher.

itsnotrequired
05-08-2008, 12:09 PM
You mean to tell me he didn't see these 3 options? And he does this for a living? Give me a break.

Do you honestly believe KW didn't recognize these options? He saw these options and didn't like them. Pods has injury concerns and has lost a step. He is no longer the threat he once was. Crisp would have been a good option for leadoff but that's about it. Swisher is a more complete player and is signed to a better contract. Owens can still be used in leadoff but what do you do with Swisher? Bench him so Owens can get on base once a game and maybe will steal a base? Or hit for a crappy average with no power?

If KW made the moves you have described, you would probably be bitching along with half of WSI.

hi im skot
05-08-2008, 12:18 PM
WSI these days makes me want to set myself on fire.

LoveYourSuit
05-08-2008, 12:29 PM
They are not better options than Swisher.


those options suck for sure.

but Swisher does not excite me too much either.

WhiteSox5187
05-08-2008, 12:43 PM
those options suck for sure.

but Swisher does not excite me too much either.
I think the leadoff spot is one where he's really screwed up the past couple of years (although truth be told I don't really blame him for '06 cuz Pods was money in '05 and I wasn't opposed to taking a gamble on Pods again in '07)...so really, he's only screwed it up THIS year, and '04 and '03...but it almost seems like at the last minute he realized "Oh crap! I don't really have a leadoff hitter!" And then tried to use Swish. I think he probably went into ST under the assumption that Jerry Owens would wind up being our leadoff guy and that would give Ozzie the speed he wants. But then he wound up getting hurt and TCQ put up some mad numbers so you couldn't justify sending him down and Kenny had to cross his fingers and hope that Swish would pan out. And he's not. The guys is NOT a good leadoff hitter.

VeeckAsInWreck
05-08-2008, 12:47 PM
WSI these days makes me want to set myself on fire.

:rolling:

Aren't we being a little dramatic? :wink:

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 03:15 PM
I could name THREE off the top of my head.....(though I'm not advocating them.)

A.) He could've took a chance and resigned Pods (probably not a good idea but, better than Swisher leading off.)

Not better than Swisher leading off


B.) Coco Crisp could've been had and while not one of my favorite players he is probably a better option at leadoff than Swisher.

Better option, but there's no reason to think that Crisp could have been had. He wasn't traded in the offseason and he's getting a lot of AB's for a 1st place team right now.


C.) Started Owens and seen what he could do once and for all.....while not a good option "on paper" he probably would be better at leadofff than Swisher in the longrun.


This is by far the worst option you've mentioned yet.

spiffie
05-08-2008, 03:16 PM
Better option, but there's no reason to think that Crisp could have been had. He wasn't traded in the offseason and he's getting a lot of AB's for a 1st place team right now.
And in those AB's he's putting up a whopping 315 OBP.

Daver
05-08-2008, 03:17 PM
WSI these days makes me want to set myself on fire.

Wanna borrow a lighter?

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 03:17 PM
And in those AB's he's putting up a whopping 315 OBP.

I still like Crisp better as a CF and leadoff man than Swisher.

I'm not saying Crisp in place of Swisher on the roster, but Swisher in LF, Crisp in CF and Quentin in RF would be an excellent defensive OF, and Crisp in the leadoff spot would probably be slightly better than Swisher there.

That said, Boston wasn't going to give up Crisp cheap and we didn't have the pieces to get him without making ourself significantly worse

Tragg
05-08-2008, 03:20 PM
All of those choices are far better than what Ozzie is leading off with these days.
Guillen is responding precisely as he did last year when the O crumbled.....he's making it worse by elevating hitters who hit like and as badly as he did. Getting on base seems to be the least important qualification to leading off in ozzie-ball....definitely below hacking at balls in the dirt. Today, a 139 hitter leads off - but he aggressively swings at everything, just like Ozzie did, so he gets the call.

Thome25
05-08-2008, 03:25 PM
Let me just say that I started this thread to point out that this team absolutely cannot live and die by the home run. Kenny is the architect who put this team together to perform in this manner......so IMHO he deserves some of the blame for the offensive woes.

I also want to say that I hope that even though they live and die by the HR.....I hope this works to their advantage and they find a way to make the playoffs.

If it does end up working out for us then I will be the first one in line eating a big plateful of crow and typing about how much of a genious KW is.

But this "HR or nothing" offense has been struggling for almost two seasons now with no end in sight.

If you count previous versions of the White Sox in the 2000's then the whole philosophy of building lineups with a emphasis on slugging the hell out of the ball really hasn't worked for us.

IMHO KW needs a different approach to building his lineup.

spiffie
05-08-2008, 03:32 PM
I still like Crisp better as a CF and leadoff man than Swisher.

I'm not saying Crisp in place of Swisher on the roster, but Swisher in LF, Crisp in CF and Quentin in RF would be an excellent defensive OF, and Crisp in the leadoff spot would probably be slightly better than Swisher there.

That said, Boston wasn't going to give up Crisp cheap and we didn't have the pieces to get him without making ourself significantly worse
I really fail to see what Crisp is bringing to the table that gets people so worked up. I think as a fanbase we tend to overvalue him because he was so good in the year that Cleveland chased us for the division. But since 2005 ended he has put up a line of 268/323/382. He's stealing 25 or so bases per year. I'll grant you that he plays a solid defense, but I don't think that it is good enough to really be a major factor.

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 03:34 PM
I really fail to see what Crisp is bringing to the table that gets people so worked up. I think as a fanbase we tend to overvalue him because he was so good in the year that Cleveland chased us for the division. But since 2005 ended he has put up a line of 268/323/382. He's stealing 25 or so bases per year. I'll grant you that he plays a solid defense, but I don't think that it is good enough to really be a major factor.

He's capable (he hasn't in a while, but he's come fairly close a couple of times since 2005) of putting up .350 OBP #'s with good speed. That's good enough for me.

I mostly like him for the improved CF defense. :shrug:

spiffie
05-08-2008, 03:42 PM
He's capable (he hasn't in a while, but he's come fairly close a couple of times since 2005) of putting up .350 OBP #'s with good speed. That's good enough for me.

I mostly like him for the improved CF defense. :shrug:
The defense is nice, but I think even a shriveled and withered Dye is still a much better option offensively. And really Crisp hasn't come close that often. His OBPs in years with 400+AB's:
302
344
345
317
330

As weird as it is to type this, if we really wanted to improve the OF defense, and were somehow in a situation where there was the ability to have a better defensive CF...I'd rather see Anderson out there for a while. I think he's a better glove than Crisp, and potentially a better hitter.

fquaye149
05-08-2008, 06:24 PM
The defense is nice, but I think even a shriveled and withered Dye is still a much better option offensively. And really Crisp hasn't come close that often. His OBPs in years with 400+AB's:
302
344
345
317
330

As weird as it is to type this, if we really wanted to improve the OF defense, and were somehow in a situation where there was the ability to have a better defensive CF...I'd rather see Anderson out there for a while. I think he's a better glove than Crisp, and potentially a better hitter.

They're two different kinds of offensive options.

For a guy with 30 SB's a year at a high success rate, one of the years with a .330+ OBP wouldn't be so bad at the leadoff spot

Mohoney
05-09-2008, 06:42 AM
The offensive woes are KW's fault as soon as September of this year if the following things happen:

1) We keep getting this pitching all year and still fail to win games.

2) We are still reasonably in the race at the trade deadline, our offense continues to be our glaring deficiency, and nothing is done to attempt to rectify the situation.

3) Players that are consistent failures at the plate are given constant playing time with no effort being taken to shake things up (although this is more manager than GM).

I think we're going to have to play out the rest of this season and see where we stand. Just hope that the pitching continues at this level the rest of the season (5th in MLB in ERA and WHIP is pretty damn impressive), and hope that the worst AVG in the majors falls closer in line to the middle of the road, where our OBP is.

Dan Mega
05-09-2008, 08:23 AM
WSI these days makes me want to set myself on fire.

Can I have your 10 speed?

Dan Mega
05-09-2008, 08:25 AM
Let me just say that I started this thread to point out that this team absolutely cannot live and die by the home run. Kenny is the architect who put this team together to perform in this manner......so IMHO he deserves some of the blame for the offensive woes.

I also want to say that I hope that even though they live and die by the HR.....I hope this works to their advantage and they find a way to make the playoffs.

If it does end up working out for us then I will be the first one in line eating a big plateful of crow and typing about how much of a genious KW is.

But this "HR or nothing" offense has been struggling for almost two seasons now with no end in sight.

If you count previous versions of the White Sox in the 2000's then the whole philosophy of building lineups with a emphasis on slugging the hell out of the ball really hasn't worked for us.

IMHO KW needs a different approach to building his lineup.

If he hasn't changed his approach in 8 years whats to say he'll change it anytime soon?

In his defense there is no way he could have forseen Cabrera hitting like Uribe.

ondafarm
05-09-2008, 11:03 AM
All of those choices are far better than what Ozzie is leading off with these days.
Guillen is responding precisely as he did last year when the O crumbled.....he's making it worse by elevating hitters who hit like and as badly as he did. Getting on base seems to be the least important qualification to leading off in ozzie-ball....definitely below hacking at balls in the dirt. Today, a 139 hitter leads off - but he aggressively swings at everything, just like Ozzie did, so he gets the call.

What you are blaming Ozzie Guillen? How dare you?

Droso5
05-09-2008, 11:39 AM
What you are blaming Ozzie Guillen? How dare you?

Yeah! He won the Word Series in '05, get off the guys back broski!.