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View Full Version : Tip of the Hat to KW


TomBradley72
05-07-2008, 11:35 AM
Not all of his trades have worked out...but these three have been outstanding:

We gave up: Freddy Garcia, Brandon MacCarthy, Chris Carter

We received: Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Nick Masset, Carlos Quentin

2/5's of our starting rotation, our best hitter, a decent long man (so far)....some very nice retooling by KW. He's had his Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch type trades...but these were pretty gutsy and somewhat controversial moves. Along with the Buehrle and Vazquez contracts...rotation looks solid for the next few years if they stay healthy.

Nice work Mr. Williams. :gulp:

eriqjaffe
05-07-2008, 11:37 AM
But he also signed Uribe and then went out and traded for Cabrera!

Jerome
05-07-2008, 11:39 AM
I think BMac and Carter are owed some time before we decide who won and lost these trades...

but yeah how could you not be :D::cool: and even a little :redface: at the Freddy Garcia trade. I was in favor of it at the time

edit: hahah the language filter still picks it up

Frater Perdurabo
05-07-2008, 11:47 AM
Depending on how much he still maximizes his potential, the Chris Young trade may yet prove to be a long-term "loss," but Vazquez has been an excellent pitcher since being acquired, and has improved each season he's been here.

Put another way, put Chris Young on this team in CF and take Vazquez out of the rotation and insert Lance Broadway or Charlie Haeger. Would this team be any better right now? Would it have been any better last season? What about 2006? I say "No" on all three accounts.

Therefore, we have to consider the Vazquez-Young trade a win for both teams.

doublem23
05-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Therefore, we have to consider the Vazquez-Young trade a win for both teams.

I agree, sometimes you got to break an egg to make an omelette. While it would have been nice to keep Young around, Vazquez has proven to be worth the price, IMO. He was shaky in '06, but has been excellent the last two years and starting pitching is always the trump card. KW has always been aggressive in his pursuit of starting pitching, which was a refreshing change from his predecessor, who sat on his hands and never rocked the boat.

The only picthers who have backfired that KW acquired were Wells and Ritchie, and to be honest, it's not like we ended up giving up a bunch for either of them, so it's hard to really label those deals as busts.

voodoochile
05-07-2008, 12:06 PM
You mean THE Chris Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=6514)?

Wow, 2 HR since 4/8, a 2:1 K:BB rate and on pace to K 150+ times this season...

doublem23
05-07-2008, 12:08 PM
You mean THE Chris Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=6514)?

Wow, 2 HR since 4/8, a 2:1 K:BB rate and on pace to K 150+ times this season...

To be fair, his BA would be better than 5 of our everyday regulars right now.

And he's only 24.

And he might have caught Mauer's double in CF. :o: :cower::duck:

kjhanson
05-07-2008, 12:17 PM
Not all of his trades have worked out...but these three have been outstanding:

We gave up: Freddy Garcia, Brandon MacCarthy, Chris Carter

We received: Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Nick Masset, Carlos Quentin



Don't forget that we got Gio in that Freddy Garcia deal, who basically got us half of Swisher. Only thing that sucks thus far is that Swisher is playing like half of himself. Once he comes around though, that Freddy Garcia deal becomes an even bigger steal. Plus, there's one more arm from that McCarthy deal still in the minor leagues, and it has some decent potential.

Paulwny
05-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Therefore, we have to consider the Vazquez-Young trade a win for both teams.

A few of these type of trades are helpful.When other teams see sox farm hands who were traded continually bust they'll feel the sox minor league players are over-rated making it harder for KW to make deals.

oeo
05-07-2008, 12:29 PM
A few of these type of trades are helpful.When other teams see sox farm hands who were traded continually bust they'll feel the sox minor league players are over-rated making it harder for KW to make deals.

I disagree with this. The chances of a prospect actually making it big are very minuscule...you take a chance when trading for prospects. Each team has an opportunity to watch them play, and they will build their own opinions off of that.

The Sox will be fine in that regard, as long as they can get some top-rated prospects.

LoveYourSuit
05-07-2008, 01:57 PM
I wasn't too thrilled about the Garcia and Bmac deals when first done.

Now I am fully on board seeing the guys we got back are coming into their own.

DSpivack
05-07-2008, 02:14 PM
The TCQ-Chris Carter also worked out for both teams. The DBacks made out well using Carter as a chip to get Dan Haren.

Tragg
05-07-2008, 02:27 PM
The Garcia trade was outstanding; the Quentin trade was outstanding (thankfully, circumstances prevented the manager's keen talent evaluation - that Quentin was 3rd team behind Ramirez and Owens - from becoming a permanent reality).

The Garland trade is looking like real stinker....it's even worse considering that we gave up Garland and Uribe is still in the lineup.....Ozzie will not give up his 4 horsemen

doublem23
05-07-2008, 02:31 PM
The Garland trade is looking like real stinker....it's even worse considering that we gave up Garland and Uribe is still in the lineup.....Ozzie will not give up his 4 horsemen

A) Moving Garland opened up a spot for both Danks and Floyd in the starting rotation, both of whom have pitched better Jon

B) Uribe is in the lineup because of the injury to Richar. Without Cabrera, Uribe would be the starting SS, and Alexei or someone possibly even worse would be starting at 2B.

VeeckAsInWreck
05-07-2008, 02:43 PM
The Garland trade is looking like real stinker....it's even worse considering that we gave up Garland and Uribe is still in the lineup.....Ozzie will not give up his 4 horsemen

Moving Garland allowed Floyd to get in the rotation. Also, Garland hasn't looked any better than OC has looked for us. So that trade has been equally bad for both sides. In the Sox case, it hasn't hurt them because the starting pitching hasn't suffered without Jon.

fquaye149
05-07-2008, 02:55 PM
I still say Kenny rules big time! :thumbsup:

infohawk
05-07-2008, 03:10 PM
Depending on how much he still maximizes his potential, the Chris Young trade may yet prove to be a long-term "loss," but Vazquez has been an excellent pitcher since being acquired, and has improved each season he's been here.

Put another way, put Chris Young on this team in CF and take Vazquez out of the rotation and insert Lance Broadway or Charlie Haeger. Would this team be any better right now? Would it have been any better last season? What about 2006? I say "No" on all three accounts.

Therefore, we have to consider the Vazquez-Young trade a win for both teams.
Not to mention that, had we not traded Young to the D-Backs, we probably wouldn't have Quentin since the D-Backs wouldn't have had the log-jam in the outfield. That, and the injury, made them overcome their reluctance to move Carlos. I'm sure they're medical team assumed he would recover from the injury alright, so it would be the crowded outfield that was the determining factor in letting him go.

Edit: In that regard, KW got a top-flight pitcher and an outstanding major league caliber talent in his dealings with the D-Backs without giving up anyone off our major league roster. That's a pretty good deal!

oeo
05-07-2008, 03:29 PM
Not all of his trades have worked out...but these three have been outstanding:

We gave up: Freddy Garcia, Brandon MacCarthy, Chris Carter

We received: Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Nick Masset, Carlos Quentin

2/5's of our starting rotation, our best hitter, a decent long man (so far)....some very nice retooling by KW. He's had his Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch type trades...but these were pretty gutsy and somewhat controversial moves. Along with the Buehrle and Vazquez contracts...rotation looks solid for the next few years if they stay healthy.

Nice work Mr. Williams. :gulp:

Don't forget about Rasner in that McCarthy trade, who is having a nice start to the season in Winston-Salem. Hasn't helped us yet, but could in the next couple of years.

Paulwny
05-07-2008, 03:33 PM
I disagree with this. The chances of a prospect actually making it big are very minuscule...you take a chance when trading for prospects. Each team has an opportunity to watch them play, and they will build their own opinions off of that.

The Sox will be fine in that regard, as long as they can get some top-rated prospects.


4-5 yrs ago the yanks had a hard time dealing prospects after a many of them busted in mlb and Gm's stated feeling their prospects may be over-rated.

doublem23
05-07-2008, 04:08 PM
4-5 yrs ago the yanks had a hard time dealing prospects after a many of them busted in mlb and Gm's stated feeling their prospects may be over-rated.

I think Cashman had trouble 4-5 years ago trading away Yankee prospects because, coincidentally, 4-5 years ago the Yankee farm system was full of garbage.

Ricky Ledee, Drew Henson, D'Angelo Jimenez, and Brandon Claussen, ftw

Elephant
05-07-2008, 04:10 PM
To the OP, agreed.

As for Chris Young, a sub-.300 OBP last year. Uribe is even better than that usually. I mean he's a good player in the right lineup (that doesn't have him anywhere near the top), but whatever, I'll take Vazquez.

Paulwny
05-07-2008, 04:20 PM
I think Cashman had trouble 4-5 years ago trading away Yankee prospects because, coincidentally, 4-5 years ago the Yankee farm system was full of garbage.

Ricky Ledee, Drew Henson, D'Angelo Jimenez, and Brandon Claussen, ftw

Agree, but those you listed especially Henson were considered close to "can't miss kids", highly rated, but busts. Soon after other GM's were leery of taking yank farm hands. The yanks were no longer able to pull off their patented midseason trade , minor leaguers for a veteran, to plug a hole.
Its sometimes a good deal if your trading partener gets something of value.

doublem23
05-07-2008, 04:23 PM
Agree, but those you listed especially Henson were considered close to "can't miss kids", highly rated, but busts. Soon after other GM's were leery of taking yank farm hands. The yanks were no longer able to pull off their patented midseason trade , minor leaguers for a veteran, to plug a hole.
Its sometimes a good deal if your trading partener gets something of value.

I agree with your point, but I think ultimately if there's a player in your organization that someone else covets, it's because they've scouted them numerous times and picked through their stats... That opinion isn't just based on the past performance of other players.

I do agree, though, it's probably better for everyone if your farm system continues to produce quality big league players and not just bust after bust.

DickAllen72
05-07-2008, 05:07 PM
Not all of his trades have worked out...but these three have been outstanding:

We gave up: Freddy Garcia, Brandon MacCarthy, Chris Carter

We received: Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Nick Masset, Carlos Quentin

2/5's of our starting rotation, our best hitter, a decent long man (so far)....some very nice retooling by KW. He's had his Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch type trades...but these were pretty gutsy and somewhat controversial moves. Along with the Buehrle and Vazquez contracts...rotation looks solid for the next few years if they stay healthy.

Nice work Mr. Williams. :gulp:
:thumbsup: I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Kenny Williams is an outstanding GM."

TomBradley72
05-07-2008, 06:02 PM
Agree, but those you listed especially Henson were considered close to "can't miss kids", highly rated, but busts. Soon after other GM's were leery of taking yank farm hands. The yanks were no longer able to pull off their patented midseason trade , minor leaguers for a veteran, to plug a hole.
Its sometimes a good deal if your trading partener gets something of value.

It's not like the other team is counting on your version of how good a prospect is. They have their own scouting reports on a given player...they are making the trade based on that information...not on KW's assessment of a player.

Paulwny
05-08-2008, 12:14 PM
It's not like the other team is counting on your version of how good a prospect is. They have their own scouting reports on a given player...they are making the trade based on that information...not on KW's assessment of a player.

Granted, however many times they'll also look at the position the player was drafted by the trading team to see if they may have missed something. You often hear that a player was a 1st or 2nd round pick.