PDA

View Full Version : Does Thome have any value at this point?


It's Time
05-05-2008, 10:09 PM
Lets assume at the deadline this team continues to be a laughing stock and can't get out of it's own way. If that is the case, do you move Thome? And if you do, what can you get for a declining, aging veteran?

I don't remember him ever looking so pathetic at the plate.

Jenks4Prez
05-05-2008, 10:13 PM
Lets assume at the deadline this team continues to be a laughing stock and can't get out of it's own way. If that is the case, do you move Thome? And if you do, what can you get for a declining, aging veteran?

I don't remember him ever looking so pathetic at the plate.

Whatever you do, don't call him "washed up" on this board. The pathetic kool aid drinkers will attack you. He's a HOFer, he's hit 500+ HRs etc.

Daver
05-05-2008, 10:16 PM
Lets assume at the deadline this team continues to be a laughing stock and can't get out of it's own way. If that is the case, do you move Thome? And if you do, what can you get for a declining, aging veteran?

Nothing.

He has a no trade clause.

It's Time
05-05-2008, 10:16 PM
Nothing.

He has a no trade clause.

He most likely would waive it if the White Sox are 10 back.

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:16 PM
Does Richie Sexson have any value at this point?

Compare their stat lines...

Thome 6 home runs, 6 doubles, 35 strikeouts, (tied for league lead) 22 hits, .214 BA.

Sexson 6 home runs, 5 doubles, 31 strikeouts, 23 hits, .215 BA.

Thome appears to have bought a one way ticket to Dave Kingmanville.

Jenks4Prez
05-05-2008, 10:18 PM
Thome appears to have bought a one way ticket to Dave Kingmanville.

HAHA!! BRAVO!

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:19 PM
He most likely would waive it if the White Sox are 10 back.]

If he did waive it, you trade him for a bag of balls, just to get out from under his 09 option.

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:20 PM
There are only nine teams you can trade Jim Thome to: American League East and American League West.

Not gonna happen.

It's Time
05-05-2008, 10:21 PM
There are only nine teams you can trade Jim Thome to: American League East and American League West.

Not gonna happen.

Something has to happen. You can't have him here in 2009, you just can't.

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:23 PM
There are only nine teams you can trade Jim Thome to: American League East and American League West.

Not gonna happen.

Now let's just assume that somebody wanted him. Why can't you trade a 37 year old DH with a .214 avg. within your division?

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:25 PM
Now let's just assume that somebody wanted him. Why can't you trade a 37 year old DH with a .214 avg. within your division?

He won't have a .214 average at the end of the year. He was the biggest White Sox killer of them all when he was with Cleveland. Rest assured, he would come back to haunt us.

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:27 PM
Something has to happen. You can't have him here in 2009, you just can't.

It's too early to even consider 2009.

It seems like everyone here at WSI wants something to happen RIGHT NOW. It doesn't work like that. It's not sensible.

No major moves are going to be made for at least another month.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-05-2008, 10:27 PM
Toronto released Thomas, could the Sox just release Thome? Give it another week.

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:29 PM
He won't have a .214 average at the end of the year. He was the biggest White Sox killer of them all when he was with Cleveland. Rest assured, he would come back to haunt us.

I'd take that bet...Thome is clearly on the decline...but even assuming he "turns it around" it only matter if the Sox are anywhere near contention...(If you can get out of the option by trading within the division, and that is a huge if...you jump at it.)

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:29 PM
Toronto released Thomas, could the Sox just release Thome? Give it another week.

Sure, they could release him and eat his salary. But why would they do that?

If you're saying release Thome because he's performing poorly, I could argue that we should release everyone except Quentin and Pierzynski on the grounds that they are all performing poorly.

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:30 PM
Toronto released Thomas, could the Sox just release Thome? Give it another week.

They tried to bench him first, don't forget. The Sox should at the very least consider benching Thome against lefties...

sox1970
05-05-2008, 10:31 PM
Toronto released Thomas, could the Sox just release Thome? Give it another week.

It's never going to happen, but I'd love it. At the very least, drop his ass to 6.

He can't ****ing bat third in this league anymore, Good God!

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:31 PM
I'd take that bet...Thome is clearly on the decline...but even assuming he "turns it around" it only matter if the Sox are anywhere near contention...(If you can get out of the option by trading within the division, and that is a huge if...you jump at it.)

I would be willing to bet that Thome will bat .215 or higher this year.

He's just the designated scapegoat on WSI right now. We have a lineup full of suck, and Thome is taking the brunt of the criticism, for whatever reason.

Everyone wants Carlos Quentin to bat third. How did Quentin do with RISP tonight?

veeter
05-05-2008, 10:33 PM
We can't release him, he's too nice of a guy.

sox1970
05-05-2008, 10:33 PM
I would be willing to bet that Thome will bat .215 or higher this year.

He's just the designated scapegoat on WSI right now. We have a lineup full of suck, and Thome is taking the brunt of the criticism, for whatever reason.

Everyone wants Carlos Quentin to bat third. How did Quentin do with RISP tonight?

Yeah, base everything on tonight's game. Thome is the brunt of the criticism because he's...oh I don't know.....OUR NUMBER 3 HITTER!!!

It's Time
05-05-2008, 10:34 PM
I would be willing to bet that Thome will bat .215 or higher this year.

He's just the designated scapegoat on WSI right now. We have a lineup full of suck, and Thome is taking the brunt of the criticism, for whatever reason.

Everyone wants Carlos Quentin to bat third. How did Quentin do with RISP tonight?

Whenever he has two strikes, I am shocked if he even MAKES contact, let alone get a hit. He is indeed kingman like as another poster said.

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:34 PM
Sure, they could release him and eat his salary. But why would they do that?

If you're saying release Thome because he's performing poorly, I could argue that we should release everyone except Quentin and Pierzynski on the grounds that they are all performing poorly.

Right, you COULD argue that, but that in and of itself proves nothing. The reason people are wringing their hands about Thome is because he's 37 years old, can't play the field, and is currently leading the league in strikeouts. Have Konerko, Swisher, Cabrera, and Dye all stunk too? Yes, but not as bad, and with the possible exception of Dye, they are all much more likely to not be "running on fumes."

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:35 PM
Yeah, base everything on tonight's game. Thome is the brunt of the criticism because he's...oh I don't know.....OUR NUMBER 3 HITTER!!!

Go ahead and keep giving everyone else a free pass then. Swisher is terrible right now. Cabrera is terrible right now. Dye is terrible right now.

I don't see any threads calling for their unconditional release.

Honest to God, this is ridiculous.

voodoochile
05-05-2008, 10:36 PM
Go ahead and keep giving everyone else a free pass then. Swisher is terrible right now. Cabrera is terrible right now. Dye is terrible right now.

I don't see any threads calling for their unconditional release.

Honest to God, this is ridiculous.


NONONONONONO!

The Sox are never going to win another game this season and it's all 2007's fault...

sox1970
05-05-2008, 10:37 PM
Go ahead and keep giving everyone else a free pass then. Swisher is terrible right now. Cabrera is terrible right now. Dye is terrible right now.

I don't see any threads calling for their unconditional release.

Honest to God, this is ridiculous.

He's not going to get released, but he needs to be moved in the lineup. ANd he does deserve a large amount of criticism because he's the number 3 hitter on an American League team.

#3 hitters should be around .300, not .200.

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:38 PM
Right, you COULD argue that, but that in and of itself proves nothing. The reason people are wringing their hands about Thome is because he's 37 years old, can't play the field, and is currently leading the league in strikeouts. Have Konerko, Swisher, Cabrera, and Dye all stunk too? Yes, but not as bad, and with the possible exception of Dye, they are all much more likely to not be "running on fumes."

Cabrera has been our worst hitter this year, aside from the fiasco at second base. Dye was what? 1-for-24 on the trip? Hey, at least Thome had a two-hit game in Minnesota, and he knocked in a couple runs.

JB98
05-05-2008, 10:40 PM
He's not going to get released, but he needs to be moved in the lineup. ANd he does deserve a large amount of criticism because he's the number 3 hitter on an American League team.

#3 hitters should be around .300, not .200.

Ozzie juggled the lineup tonight, and what did that do?

It just changed the order in which everyone made outs. Everyone wanted Quentin moved up in the order. They got their wish. He failed in the clutch, just like Cabrera, Thome, Swisher and everybody else.

It would be nice to have No. 3 hitter hitting around .300. On that point, I agree. Good luck finding a .300 hitter on this ballclub.

eastchicagosoxfan
05-05-2008, 10:45 PM
Sure, they could release him and eat his salary. But why would they do that?

If you're saying release Thome because he's performing poorly, I could argue that we should release everyone except Quentin and Pierzynski on the grounds that they are all performing poorly.
If the Sox management decides he's not going to signifigantly improve, would they eat the cash? You're right, the Sox could look to release/move everyone at this point.

Malgar 12
05-05-2008, 10:47 PM
Cabrera has been our worst hitter this year, aside from the fiasco at second base. Dye was what? 1-for-24 on the trip? Hey, at least Thome had a two-hit game in Minnesota, and he knocked in a couple runs.

No doubt Cabrera has been a major disappointment with the bat so far. But he's been solid with glove, is younger than Thome, doesn't strikeout much, and is a FA at the end of the year.

Any way you slice it, Thome appears to be Richie Sexson with a better resume...Harold Baines had a great resume in 2000 too, when he came back to the Sox, but he was clearly washed up... you have to seriously consider the following.

1. dropping him to sixth or so in the lineup
2. Bench him against lefties
3. (Assuming the Sox are out of contention at the deadline) Trade him to any taker.

Hopefully he'll turn it around at least somewhat...but I think his days as a great middle of the order threat are over.

Harry Potter
05-05-2008, 10:48 PM
Good luck finding a .300 hitter on this ballclub.

How sad that this team currently does not have 1 ****ing hitter above .300, yet the "hefty softball player" aka Matt Stairs, is sitting at .307 after today :mad:

ND_Sox_Fan
05-05-2008, 10:49 PM
He's just the designated scapegoat on WSI right now. We have a lineup full of suck, and Thome is taking the brunt of the criticism, for whatever reason.

Believe me, I blame a lot of the guys we send to the plate right now, but remember this - Thome is paid and employed to do ONE thing and that is to HIT. Other guys can make plays in the field and add value in other ways, but when you are the DH and you can't hit, it is like being the catcher who can't catch.

roadrunner
05-05-2008, 10:51 PM
Cabrera has been our worst hitter this year, aside from the fiasco at second base. Dye was what? 1-for-24 on the trip? Hey, at least Thome had a two-hit game in Minnesota, and he knocked in a couple runs.

What's your point? Thome can't play short, right or anywhere else.

Harry Chappas
05-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Ozzie juggled the lineup tonight, and what did that do?

It just changed the order in which everyone made outs. Everyone wanted Quentin moved up in the order. They got their wish. He failed in the clutch, just like Cabrera, Thome, Swisher and everybody else.

It would be nice to have No. 3 hitter hitting around .300. On that point, I agree. Good luck finding a .300 hitter on this ballclub.

As someone else pointed out, maybe we ought to give Quentin more than a game to prove he can handle the #3 spot in the order, don't you think?

Talk of releasing Thome outright is foolish, but he should absolutely be moved down in the order and ride the pine versus lefties. And if we find ourselves buried in the standings, there is no reason to keep him around for '09 if we can find a suitor.

As for the poor play of the rest of the team (AJ and Quentin excluded), I'd say given their value in the field and respective ages, they're more likely to come out of it. What we may be witnessing with Thome is the steep decline of a former great player. We can hold our breath and hope this is an aberration, or, he can be moved down in the order. I'd pick the latter option.

AZChiSoxFan
05-05-2008, 11:36 PM
Lets assume at the deadline this team continues to be a laughing stock and can't get out of it's own way. If that is the case, do you move Thome? And if you do, what can you get for a declining, aging veteran?

I don't remember him ever looking so pathetic at the plate.

You sit him on the bench so that his option for 09 doesn't kick in.

Vernam
05-05-2008, 11:44 PM
You sit him on the bench so that his option for 09 doesn't kick in.Now is the time to start the Thome/Dye platoon. If they do it now, management can legitimately claim they're trying to right a sinking ship. If they wait until we fall from contention, it'll look like they're just trying to keep Thome's AB total low so his option won't kick in.

Vernam

TDog
05-05-2008, 11:47 PM
Something has to happen. You can't have him here in 2009, you just can't.

I felt the same way about Nick Swisher in March. No, I take that back. I felt the same way about going with Nick Swisher in 2008. And Uribe, too. but an injury saved Uribe's job.

Chicken Dinner
05-05-2008, 11:59 PM
This is a dumb thread in the first week of May. When he hits the "walk-off" in June to beat the Cubs everyone will love him. :D:

Beer Can Chicken
05-06-2008, 12:53 AM
I love Thome but if we can get something (anything) for him, he has to go. We need younger, more dynamic players. Thome is paid to hit and unfortunately at this point in his HOF career, it looks like Fields can hit just as well as him.

Malgar 12
05-06-2008, 09:06 AM
I love Thome but if we can get something (anything) for him, he has to go. We need younger, more dynamic players. Thome is paid to hit and unfortunately at this point in his HOF career, it looks like Fields can hit just as well as him.

The way Thome is currently playing, that is an insult to Josh Fields.

Bill Naharodny
05-06-2008, 09:14 AM
Now is the time to start the Thome/Dye platoon. If they do it now, management can legitimately claim they're trying to right a sinking ship. If they wait until we fall from contention, it'll look like they're just trying to keep Thome's AB total low so his option won't kick in.

Vernam

I thought this was a fine idea until I remembered that Dye's least favorite pitchers to hit against are left-handed changeup artists.

Law11
05-06-2008, 09:17 AM
He has so obviously lost speed on his swing. He is not turning the hands over on the inside pitches nearly fast enough and is just out there lunging trying to cover the plate.

he reminds me of the tail end of the Kittle years.. Homerun or K.

cws05champ
05-06-2008, 09:23 AM
He has so obviously lost speed on his swing. He is not turning the hands over on the inside pitches nearly fast enough and is just out there lunging trying to cover the plate.

he reminds me of the tail end of the Kittle years.. Homerun or K.
There is something wrong with him right now...probably mental. His head is coming up off the ball and doesn't seem to be seeing the pitches very well. I have never seen him miss so many pitches by such a large margin. When you are a ML #3 hitter and consistently missing sliders by 6 inches, there's something wrong!

russ99
05-06-2008, 09:42 AM
Ozzie juggled the lineup tonight, and what did that do?

It just changed the order in which everyone made outs. Everyone wanted Quentin moved up in the order. They got their wish. He failed in the clutch, just like Cabrera, Thome, Swisher and everybody else.

It would be nice to have No. 3 hitter hitting around .300. On that point, I agree. Good luck finding a .300 hitter on this ballclub.

Dye's the guy for the 3 spot. He's done it before and doesn't have one glaring deficiency that teams can target with a shift.

Thome's still a good player, but he's declining and the Sox need to be smart about where they use him. My big gripe about Jim is every swing is a kill-the-ball swing. Pick your spots, big guy.

I'd sit him vs. selected lefties, otherwise move him to 6 vs. lefties or 5 vs. righties. He'd be a good guy to bring off the bench late vs. a righty too.

Swisher's also a good #3 or #5. Regardless, Ozzie needs to break up Thome & Konerko, as they're not getting the job done batting 3 and 4.

TomBradley72
05-06-2008, 10:09 AM
The key is for Ozzie to start managing Thome consistent with the player he is today vs. the player he used to be or the player we hoped he would be.

The reality is:

He can no longer hit lefties: .219 BA 2006-2007, after the Sabbathia game...his 2008 stats are similar if not worse.
Late Inning relievers (mostly LOOGYs) dominate him: .223 BA 2006-2007 in Late Inning/Close Game situations (only Pods, Erstad, Anderson and Machowiak were worse among starters...not good company for your #3 hitter/DH); 2008: Hitless in 0/8.So...if you're goal is to win this year vs. catering to his resume....he only starts against RHs, and you're prepared to pinch hit for him against LOOGYs later in the game. It's a legitimate approach...side benefit...his 2009 renewal won't kick in and Dye can move to full time DH.

TomBradley72
05-06-2008, 10:10 AM
There is something wrong with him right now...probably mental. His head is coming up off the ball and doesn't seem to be seeing the pitches very well. I have never seen him miss so many pitches by such a large margin. When you are a ML #3 hitter and consistently missing sliders by 6 inches, there's something wrong!

I don't think it's mental. It's age catching up with him.

Harry Chappas
05-06-2008, 10:28 AM
The key is for Ozzie to start managing Thome consistent with the player he is today vs. the player he used to be or the player we hoped he would be.

The reality is:

He can no longer hit lefties: .219 BA 2006-2007, after the Sabbathia game...his 2008 stats are similar if not worse.
Late Inning relievers (mostly LOOGYs) dominate him: .223 BA 2006-2007 in Late Inning/Close Game situations (only Pods, Erstad, Anderson and Machowiak were worse among starters...not good company for your #3 hitter/DH); 2008: Hitless in 0/8.So...if you're goal is to win this year vs. catering to his resume....he only starts against RHs, and you're prepared to pinch hit for him against LOOGYs later in the game. It's a legitimate approach...side benefit...his 2009 renewal won't kick in and Dye can move to full time DH.


Those stats are hideous. It bears pointing out that his inability to hit late in games and lefties isn't limited to just this year. From '06 until now, this has been a problem so there is no reason to expect it to suddenly improve. I'd love to see Dye slide into the DH spot, but right now, Thome is our best option so I don't see any changes made - short of him getting traded.

kitekrazy
05-06-2008, 10:34 AM
This team has too many one dimensional hitters. They are also slow on the bases. It wouldn't be so bad and noticeable if some of them were hitting around .320.

There's a lot to be said about MLB when organizations are willing to shell out big money to guys from Japan.

TomBradley72
05-06-2008, 10:57 AM
Thome is our best option so I don't see any changes made - short of him getting traded.

Based on these stats against LHs...I'd rather see Anderson in CF, and Dye DH than have Thome in there....watching Thome right now is like watching Fisk when the Angels were stealing at will off him in 1993. I think the steep decline is beginning....but even at his best...he always struggled against LHs. We HAVE to have a better option than a low .200's batting average.

Jurr
05-06-2008, 11:10 AM
Based on these stats against LHs...I'd rather see Anderson in CF, and Dye DH than have Thome in there....watching Thome right now is like watching Fisk when the Angels were stealing at will off him in 1993. I think the steep decline is beginning....but even at his best...he always struggled against LHs. We HAVE to have a better option than a low .200's batting average.
Amen. I've been saying it for a year and a half now, only to get lambasted time after time. The guy is just too one dimensional for an offense that already boasts such a player in Konerko. You can afford to have a David Ortiz type pull hitter on your lineup if you have no other similar hitters. Boston's other slugger is an all fields hitter who can tone it down to get the situational hit. Konerko is not that for Thome. Instead we have a big all or nothing hole in the middle of the lineup, and that gets really tough to deal with during a slump. It actually prolongs slumps, as we're seeing now.

Hokiesox
05-06-2008, 11:49 AM
How sad that this team currently does not have 1 ****ing hitter above .300, yet the "hefty softball player" aka Matt Stairs, is sitting at .307 after today :mad:

Not to dynamite the outhouse, but give Stairs Greg Walker and you'd have a .207 hitter.

Billy Ashley
05-06-2008, 12:01 PM
There is no way for me to know anything about his desire to wave his clause but....


This bum is tied for third in the team in OPS +, he's comming of a season where he had the 6th best OPS+ of any player in the American League.

He's had a bad month for his standards... and people are talking about him like he's worthless? He's still likely the best pure hitter on the team and if not, close.

Malgar 12
05-06-2008, 01:20 PM
There is no way for me to know anything about his desire to wave his clause but....


This bum is tied for third in the team in OPS +, he's comming of a season where he had the 6th best OPS+ of any player in the American League.

He's had a bad month for his standards... and people are talking about him like he's worthless? He's still likely the best pure hitter on the team and if not, close.

Tied for third on this team in any offensive category is nothing to brag about...Thome's OPS+ is 113...Richie Sexson's is 112. If one stinks, why is so blasphemous to consider that the other, despite his pedigree, stinks as well?

Could Thome turn it around and have a decent year? Of course, but as I said in my previous posts, he clearly is on the decline and should not be hitting #3, should be benched against some lefties, and should be traded if we can get rid of him at the deadline. (Assuming the Sox are out of it.)

Billy Ashley
05-06-2008, 03:10 PM
Tied for third on this team in any offensive category is nothing to brag about...Thome's OPS+ is 113...Richie Sexson's is 112. If one stinks, why is so blasphemous to consider that the other, despite his pedigree, stinks as well?

Could Thome turn it around and have a decent year? Of course, but as I said in my previous posts, he clearly is on the decline and should not be hitting #3, should be benched against some lefties, and should be traded if we can get rid of him at the deadline. (Assuming the Sox are out of it.)


I agree that thus far he hasn't been much better than Sexson, but for Sexson this month of play is about par for the course. Heck, it's actually better given how awful he was last season.

Thome on the other hand was an elite hitter just last years. He's had a bad month... So has David Ortiz and to a lesser extent Miguel Cabrera.

JorgeFabregas
05-06-2008, 03:15 PM
How sad that this team currently does not have 1 ****ing hitter above .300, yet the "hefty softball player" aka Matt Stairs, is sitting at .307 after today :mad:
Would you believe me if I told you that Matt Stairs has a higher career OPS than Jermaine Dye? Granted, this is largely because Stairs has primarily been used in a platoon role which inflates his stats a bit. He's a decent hitter, though.

TDog
05-06-2008, 03:30 PM
Tied for third on this team in any offensive category is nothing to brag about...Thome's OPS+ is 113...Richie Sexson's is 112. If one stinks, why is so blasphemous to consider that the other, despite his pedigree, stinks as well? ...

You may have missed the point, assuming I understood the point. What I take from the post you responded to is that there are others on the team who are more deserving of blame for offensive problems.

I would have had no problem hitting Anderson for Thome in the ninth last night, but if Dye were DHing, people would be complaining right now that he is worthless.

There are players on this team I dread seeing come up in a game situating more than Thome, and one of them, I understand, will have a bobblehead day this summer. If Josh Fields were DHing, as a few people here seem to want to see, I would be more tired of his strikeouts because they would come more frequently than Thome's.

turners56
05-06-2008, 04:03 PM
I have a bunch of friends and a bunch of people tell me that the Sox should trade Jim Thome. Thing is Thome has absolutely no value. He's not hitting, teams know it, pitchers know how to get him out on strikes (get a slider down or away and he's gone). Right now, slump or no slump, Thome seems to have lost it. He can't hit lefties whatsoever. The only guy the Sox can trade for some value is probably Konerko, however, Konerko is probably struggling the least out of the logjam in the middle.

It's Dankerific
05-06-2008, 04:15 PM
We should at least be creatively benching Thome, when he's getting the worst possible matchups, to cut down his PA's. Unfortunately, there is no way to trade him. No one would want him. I don't understand all the "respect" we have to give him and keep him at the 3rd spot. He has NEVER put up HOF numbers on MY team.

DickAllen72
05-06-2008, 04:43 PM
The key is for Ozzie to start managing Thome consistent with the player he is today vs. the player he used to be or the player we hoped he would be.

The reality is:

He can no longer hit lefties: .219 BA 2006-2007, after the Sabbathia game...his 2008 stats are similar if not worse.
Late Inning relievers (mostly LOOGYs) dominate him: .223 BA 2006-2007 in Late Inning/Close Game situations (only Pods, Erstad, Anderson and Machowiak were worse among starters...not good company for your #3 hitter/DH); 2008: Hitless in 0/8.So...if you're goal is to win this year vs. catering to his resume....he only starts against RHs, and you're prepared to pinch hit for him against LOOGYs later in the game. It's a legitimate approach...side benefit...his 2009 renewal won't kick in and Dye can move to full time DH.

Great points.

RockyMtnSoxFan
05-06-2008, 04:45 PM
If Josh Fields were DHing, as a few people here seem to want to see, I would be more tired of his strikeouts because they would come more frequently than Thome's.

Well, that would be quite difficult to do, because Thome is on pace to break Ryan Howard's MLB record for strikeouts in a season.

I've never been a fan of Thome, and have wanted him gone from the moment we gave up Rowand to get him. I still think we should trade him if possible, and bench him otherwise, but at this point I don't think it will make a whole lot of difference. This is an old, slow team that consistently swings from the heels trying to hit home runs, and the management does not seem committed to either the present or the future. If Thome isn't taking a spot in the lineup, maybe we could get somebody young in there, but I'm afraid it is going to be several years before we really have a contender again.

Chicken Dinner
05-06-2008, 04:47 PM
Maybe we should trade Thome back to the Phillies for Ryan Howard.........Oh, that would be a downgrade.

Thome avg .215 OBP .344

Howard avg .169 OBP .296

I wonder if the Phillie boards are calling for Howard's head?

TDog
05-06-2008, 05:44 PM
Well, that would be quite difficult to do, because Thome is on pace to break Ryan Howard's MLB record for strikeouts in a season.

I've never been a fan of Thome, and have wanted him gone from the moment we gave up Rowand to get him. I still think we should trade him if possible, and bench him otherwise, but at this point I don't think it will make a whole lot of difference. This is an old, slow team that consistently swings from the heels trying to hit home runs, and the management does not seem committed to either the present or the future. If Thome isn't taking a spot in the lineup, maybe we could get somebody young in there, but I'm afraid it is going to be several years before we really have a contender again.

I'm not a fan of Josh Fields and believe the Sox should trade him. I haven't checked to see if he is threatening a AAA strikeout record this season, although I doubt it. Players used to play full seasons at AAA, especially in the old Pacific Coast League days, and there have to be some untouchable records. I have never been a fan of Nick Swisher, who isn't all that far behind Thome in strikeouts, and was sorry to see the Sox traded prospects for him. Fields probably isn't walking as much as Swisher and Thome, though. Now that pitchers have something of a book on Fields, I would expect him to strike out more often in his second year than he did in his first.

I actually like Aaron Rowand and was sorry they traded him for Jim Thome. Maybe the White Sox would have been better off hanging on to Frank Thomas and not trading for Thome. The suggestion could spark myriad posts with statistical analysis, which mean nothing in hindsight. I don't think the Sox would have been appreciably better or worse off had they held on to Thomas and Rowand (even without factoring in the realities of money and the possibility of losing Paul Konerko) and never traded for Thome.

turners56
05-06-2008, 05:48 PM
Maybe we should trade Thome back to the Phillies for Ryan Howard.........Oh, that would be a downgrade.

Thome avg .215 OBP .344

Howard avg .169 OBP .296

I wonder if the Phillie boards are calling for Howard's head?

It's the MLB 08 The Show cover curse!

It's Dankerific
05-06-2008, 05:51 PM
It's the MLB 08 The Show cover curse!

In MLB 08 The Show, I can have Thome hit the ball down the left side of the infield for a hit. If he did that one time a game IRL, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

If he'd just take the easy ****ing hit, they'd have to stop playing him that way, so he'd have a lot better time overall (assuming he would stop swinging at the low breaking ball.)

turners56
05-06-2008, 05:52 PM
In MLB 08 The Show, I can have Thome hit the ball down the left side of the infield for a hit. If he did that one time a game IRL, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

If he'd just take the easy ****ing hit, they'd have to stop playing him that way, so he'd have a lot better time overall (assuming he would stop swinging at the low breaking ball.)

Thome's a monster in that game, he crushes anything up, too bad Thome doesn't get meatballs in real life, nor can he hit them.

RockyMtnSoxFan
05-06-2008, 06:03 PM
I'm not a fan of Josh Fields and believe the Sox should trade him. I haven't checked to see if he is threatening a AAA strikeout record this season, although I doubt it. Players used to play full seasons at AAA, especially in the old Pacific Coast League days, and there have to be some untouchable records. I have never been a fan of Nick Swisher, who isn't all that far behind Thome in strikeouts, and was sorry to see the Sox traded prospects for him. Fields probably isn't walking as much as Swisher and Thome, though. Now that pitchers have something of a book on Fields, I would expect him to strike out more often in his second year than he did in his first.

I actually like Aaron Rowand and was sorry they traded him for Jim Thome. Maybe the White Sox would have been better off hanging on to Frank Thomas and not trading for Thome. The suggestion could spark myriad posts with statistical analysis, which mean nothing in hindsight. I don't think the Sox would have been appreciably better or worse off had they held on to Thomas and Rowand (even without factoring in the realities of money and the possibility of losing Paul Konerko) and never traded for Thome.


I actually agree with you. I'm not trying to say that the Sox should bring up Fields to DH, I'm just trying to point out that Thome is striking out at an alarming rate. I think that Crede has more value than Fields for the White Sox currently, and I wasn't a huge fan of the Swisher deal, though I thought trading Rowand was much worse. Actually, I think Rowand's attitude was a bigger loss than his bat. As many people pointed out after he left, he didn't post huge numbers. However, his agressive attitude is something that seems to be missing from the current team. It seems that they all are willing to sit around and wait for somebody else to get things going. There is no fire.

santo=dorf
05-06-2008, 07:08 PM
You sit him on the bench so that his option for 09 doesn't kick in.
Funny, Toronto's management is considered stupid and classless about supposedly doing it to Frank, but it's ok for the Sox to do it to Thome? Perhaps you didn't make the claim aboot Toronto's organization in that situation, but a lot of WSIers did.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Jim Thome has the third highest OPS on this team. That being said, he shouldn't be hitting 3rd against lefties which is what Ozzie said he wasn't going to do.

santo=dorf
05-06-2008, 07:14 PM
Late Inning relievers (mostly LOOGYs) dominate him: .223 BA 2006-2007 in Late Inning/Close Game situations (only Pods, Erstad, Anderson and Machowiak were worse among starters...not good company for your #3 hitter/DH); 2008: Hitless in 0/8.
Batting average is a completely foolish way to measure a player's offensive performances

"late and close stats" from baseball reference (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/sOPS+)
2006 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=thomeji01&year=2006): .188/.409/.469/.878/138 (100 is AVERAGE)
2007 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=thomeji01&year=2007): .281/.397/.453/.851/135

turners56
05-06-2008, 07:16 PM
In MLB 08 The Show, I can have Thome hit the ball down the left side of the infield for a hit. If he did that one time a game IRL, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

If he'd just take the easy ****ing hit, they'd have to stop playing him that way, so he'd have a lot better time overall (assuming he would stop swinging at the low breaking ball.)

Thome had one of those last night and it seemed like Konerko was trying to poke the ball to right field on the following at bat. But that didn't work obviously, Aaron "The Wall" Hill gobbled it up and threw him out by half a baseline.

TomBradley72
05-06-2008, 11:14 PM
Batting average is a completely foolish way to measure a player's offensive performances

"late and close stats" from baseball reference (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/sOPS+)
2006 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=thomeji01&year=2006): .188/.409/.469/.878/138 (100 is AVERAGE)
2007 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=thomeji01&year=2007): .281/.397/.453/.851/135

OK...I'll give ya the "late and close' stats...he still shouldn't start against lefties.

For everyone arguing "he had one bad month, etc."....the stats that show he can't hit lefties...are for his ENTIRE tenure with the White Sox. 2006, 2007 and this year.

ChiSox65
05-06-2008, 11:18 PM
He won't have a .214 average at the end of the year. He was the biggest White Sox killer of them all when he was with Cleveland. Rest assured, he would come back to haunt us.


I'll take that chance.

TomBradley72
05-06-2008, 11:35 PM
I wouldn't give up on Thome (for this season) entirely...his OPS for 2006-2007 was just behind Ortiz (#1) and just ahead of Hafner (#3) among full time DHs in AL. So he's given us great production overall.

But his OPS against lefties last season (all of 2007) was .663. 23rd in the AL among all players who DH'd...slightly ahead of Shawn Hillenbrand, Greg Norton, and Rondell White.

He's a complete monster vs. RHs...1.123 OPS...pretty much tied for the best in the league with Ortiz (last year).

He's a best in class DH vs. righties. He's in Greg Norton territory vs. lefties. How lucky we are to have Jermaine Dye available to help out. Or Fields. Or Konerko.

santo=dorf
05-06-2008, 11:49 PM
....and since most players get 3/5 to 2/3 of their PA's against RHP, I am willing to accept that tradeoff. It's too bad Ozzie didn't live up to his word that Thome wouldn't bat third against LHSP.

TomBradley72
05-07-2008, 12:28 AM
....and since most players get 3/5 to 2/3 of their PA's against RHP, I am willing to accept that tradeoff. It's too bad Ozzie didn't live up to his word that Thome wouldn't bat third against LHSP.

I just don't see the problem with sitting him against LHs...he'll still play 3/4 games.