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View Full Version : What Move Would You Make to Get This Offense Going?


TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 10:47 AM
The offense is really struggling and there's lots of discussion around the lack of speed, how we had a guy like Pods in 2005 and that made all the dfference, etc.

My assumption is that we have one roster spot to maneuver with (Alexei's). I vote for calling up Owens to replace him. Gives us a LH off the bench, a pinch runner, and I'd give him a start against RH's 1-2X/week to see if adding him to the mix helps this offense get going.

My other assumption is that we can't move Thome. Konerko, Dye or Uribe...so by definition...if we add speed into the line up...someone is going to be losing playing time and riding the bench a little.

What move would you make?

Craig Grebeck
05-03-2008, 10:52 AM
I would do nothing. Where would he play Tom?

Maybe fire Greg Walker.

Can anyone seriously make a substantial case for Owens to play over ANYONE?

GBORN
05-03-2008, 10:57 AM
Owens would bring speed, but does it matter if guys aren't hitting the ball? He'll steal some bases, but we still need the bats to push him around. And for Owens to be in the lineup who would sit? I don't know that there is a spot for him. I agree, we need a little spark right now.

spiffie
05-03-2008, 10:57 AM
I don't mind the notion of Owens getting an occasional start, but I fail to see where you put him on the roster. He and Anderson are both 4th OF right now, and we don't really need a 5th OF as long as Ozuna is on the roster (not that he's ever someone who should be out there regularly, but he can handle an emergency start here and there).

Richar should be given the 2B job upon his return. He would bring a little more speed and energy to the lineup, without displacing one of the OBP machines in the OF.

Garland_IS_God
05-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Who does Owens replace? Certainly not JD or Swish...and right now Quentin was co-MVP of April along with Crede. The only way Owens is an everyday starter is if Konerko gets traded and Swish gets moved to everyday 1B.

voodoochile
05-03-2008, 11:01 AM
I don't mind the notion of Owens getting an occasional start, but I fail to see where you put him on the roster. He and Anderson are both 4th OF right now, and we don't really need a 5th OF as long as Ozuna is on the roster (not that he's ever someone who should be out there regularly, but he can handle an emergency start here and there).

Richar should be given the 2B job upon his return. He would bring a little more speed and energy to the lineup, without displacing one of the OBP machines in the OF.

Yeah, I want to see Richar because I not only think he has great potential but because the Sox should replace Uribe if they have a guy who can field the position every day.

I don't see that as a move to jumpstart the offense though, so I voted nothing in the poll. I don't see Owens as being the answer but if he is, someone else has to be moved to make room for him and I don't know who that is. I have less worries out our OF offense than our IF offense at the moment, though Cabrera has had a few hits reacently, so maybe he is settling down and PK was starting to hit better before hurting his hand.

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 11:07 AM
Who does Owens replace? Certainly not JD or Swish...and right now Quentin was co-MVP of April along with Crede. The only way Owens is an everyday starter is if Konerko gets traded and Swish gets moved to everyday 1B.

The thing is...Carlos Lee hit .305-31-99 in 2004 and we replaced him with Pods who delivered .290-0-25 with 59 SBs (82 attempts) and it seemed to work. It's still counter intuitive to me...but having a guy like this in the line up seems to be the secret ingredient (more fastballs while he's on base, some pressure on the other team, distracted pitchers, positioning of the infielders changes, ability to manufacture runs in low scoring game, etc.).

I wish we had other options besides Owens...but I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is what's missing from this team. Owens won't hit .290...but my guess is he could hit .265-.270.

Huisj
05-03-2008, 11:07 AM
I'd like to see Richar too, but I think it might be a while before he's back. He hardly played at all for much of spring training because of his back. He's going to need a long stint in the minors once he's healthy again before he comes up to Chicago.

Craig Grebeck
05-03-2008, 11:12 AM
The thing is...Carlos Lee hit .305-31-99 in 2004 and we replaced him with Pods who delivered .290-0-25 with 59 SBs (82 attempts) and it seemed to work. It's still counter intuitive to me...but having a guy like this in the line up seems to be the secret ingredient (more fastballs while he's on base, some pressure on the other team, distracted pitchers, positioning of the infielders changes, ability to manufacture runs in low scoring game, etc.).

I wish we had other options besides Owens...but I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is what's missing from this team. Owens won't hit .290...but my guess is he could hit .265-.270.
...which means he'd get on around 31-33% of the time. That's terrible. His OPS would probably be .650. You really think that's what this offense needs?

Also, Pods replacing Lee was not the key. The SP/RP going crazy and having collectively amazing seasons was the driving force.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 11:14 AM
...which means he'd get on around 31-33% of the time. That's terrible. His OPS would probably be .650. You really think that's what this offense needs?

Also, Pods replacing Lee was not the key. The SP/RP going crazy and having collectively amazing seasons was the driving force.
Starting pitchers have a much easier time of it if they consistently get leads early in games or they have internal confidence that someone's going to come through offensively.

Garland used to be a mental case (pre '05). When he didn't feel that he had to make the perfect pitch every time (due to the defense and the fact that he actually got consistent run support), he threw strikes and induced groundouts a LOT.

It's all related.

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 11:19 AM
...which means he'd get on around 31-33% of the time. That's terrible. His OPS would probably be .650. You really think that's what this offense needs?

Also, Pods replacing Lee was not the key. The SP/RP going crazy and having collectively amazing seasons was the driving force.

I'm not the biggest Owens fan...but I do believe what this offense needs is a speed element that pressures the other teams defense and give us the ability to win games when we're scuffling at the plate...the ability to "manufacture" a run or two. Having a true lead off/speed guy also allows Swish to move to a more natural position down the order...his slugging pct. is 100 pts below his career average right now and he could help break up the row of statues from Thome to Crede. Pods OPS was .700...I'm not trying to "recreate"2005....I just don't see us getting it done without a little speed in the line up. Like it or not...Owens and Richar are our only options.

Owens' OPS at AAA right now is .768...small sample size...but he seems to be improving his ability to draw walks vs. last season.

spiffie
05-03-2008, 11:27 AM
Starting pitchers have a much easier time of it if they consistently get leads early in games or they have internal confidence that someone's going to come through offensively.

Garland used to be a mental case (pre '05). When he didn't feel that he had to make the perfect pitch every time (due to the defense and the fact that he actually got consistent run support), he threw strikes and induced groundouts a LOT.

It's all related.
Run support per game for Jon Garland:
2003 - 6.06
2004 - 5.06
2005 - 5.29
2006 - 6.39

Eddo144
05-03-2008, 11:34 AM
The thing is...Carlos Lee hit .305-31-99 in 2004 and we replaced him with Pods who delivered .290-0-25 with 59 SBs (82 attempts) and Luis Vizcaino who delivered a 3.73 ERA in 70.0 innings out of the bullpen and it seemed to work.
Forgot Vizcaino, one of the most unheralded aspects of that amazing bullpen in 2005.

I want Mags back
05-03-2008, 11:38 AM
:thispollsucks:

The move I would make is to bring up Fields. Let him pinch hit when Uribe came up with 'em loaded last night, and its a win

jabrch
05-03-2008, 12:00 PM
The problem is we have nowhere to put Owens at this point. You aren't going to bench CQ, JD or Swish. We need better hitting from guys like Swish, Thome, and PK. All of them are hitting about .220/.360. Their SLG% range from .330 (Swish) to .470 (Thome) but none are up to snuff.

We need these guys to hit more. The walks are nice, but they don't make up for good old fashion hits. That's just the bottom line.

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 12:10 PM
:thispollsucks:

The move I would make is to bring up Fields. Let him pinch hit when Uribe came up with 'em loaded last night, and its a win

Josh Fields is on pace to strike out ~170 times at AAA....not the best pinch hitter off the bench...

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 12:12 PM
The problem is we have nowhere to put Owens at this point. You aren't going to bench CQ, JD or Swish. We need better hitting from guys like Swish, Thome, and PK. All of them are hitting about .220/.360. Their SLG% range from .330 (Swish) to .470 (Thome) but none are up to snuff.

We need these guys to hit more. The walks are nice, but they don't make up for good old fashion hits. That's just the bottom line.

At a minimum...I think he replaces Ramirez...as far as playing time goes...a start here and there...see if he adds anything to the mix.

jabrch
05-03-2008, 12:47 PM
At a minimum...I think he replaces Ramirez...as far as playing time goes...a start here and there...see if he adds anything to the mix.

I want Ramirez down in AAA for a different reason - not to bring up Owens but to have Ramirez work on his D at whatever position we will end up wanting him at - in the future. But Owens doesn't make a great 5th OF. The Sox 5th OF needs to be able to play RF because our worst defensive OF and our OF most likely to need a PR is actually Dye. I guess we can shift Swish to right and put Owens in CF, but he's not a great defensive CF due to his arm and his reads.

I like Owens - don't get me wrong. If we didn't get Swish, I was ok with him in CF this year - if that's what had to be. But right now, I don't see a way to get him enough ABs to bring him up. If we want him up to sit on the bench and get a few ABs every now and then, then that's also fine...

champagne030
05-03-2008, 01:01 PM
I wouldn't call anyone up.

What I do want is for Ozzie to call out the guys who try to pull every pitch for a homerun, regardless if it's low and away. You know who you are: Swish, Thome, Konerko, Dye, Crede, Uribe. Ozzie claims to throw everyone under the bus. Well, it's time to call these guys out for selfish play.

Frater Perdurabo
05-03-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm not sure there is much to do this season. I think we just have to hope the hitters get hot and hope the pitching holds up, and for Richar to get healthy and replace Uribe at 2B.

For 2009, I'd like to see the following moves:

Trade Dye for a lock-down quality reliever (I want another Linebrink/Shields kid of guy) and prospects. Quentin to RF, Owens to LF and batting ninth.

Let Uribe go. Richar to 2B full-time.

Let Cabrera go. Ramirez to SS.

Use the savings to keep Crede, extend Jenks and sign Quentin to a deal that lasts though his arbitration years.

CF Swisher
2B Richar
DH Thome
1B Paulie
3B Crede (Ready to be in an RBI role)
C AJ
RF Quentin (Could hit .290 with 30 HRs here)
SS Ramirez (Would benefit from spending 2008 in Charlotte)
LF Owens (Get on base to give Swisher RBI chances, could have 50 SBs)

Use Fields as PH and DH/1B/3B/LF super-sub and BA as the 4th OF. Ozuna and Hall round out the bench.

Jjav829
05-03-2008, 02:47 PM
Richar should be given a chance when healthy.

The move that should be made is to get Quentin higher in the order. He's been our best hitter this year and he's hitting 7th. I like Cabrera. I think he'll come around, but until he does so, he should be dropped in the order and Quentin moved up to #2.

oeo
05-03-2008, 02:49 PM
Richar should be given a chance when healthy.

The move that should be made is to get Quentin higher in the order. He's been our best hitter this year and he's hitting 7th. I like Cabrera. I think he'll come around, but until he does so, he should be dropped in the order and Quentin moved up to #2.

Cabrera is coming around...he had a good game yesterday and looks good again at the plate today. Drop Dye down...right now, if he makes contact with the ball, it's a successful AB.

Jjav829
05-03-2008, 02:54 PM
Cabrera is coming around...he had a good game yesterday and looks good again at the plate today. Drop Dye down...right now, if he makes contact with the ball, it's a successful AB.

Cabrera has 4 hits in his last 33 at-bats, with only 1 walk during that period. Granted all 4 of those have come since Tuesday, but he's not exactly tearing it up. And all 4 of those hits were singles.

oeo
05-03-2008, 03:00 PM
I'm not sure there is much to do this season. I think we just have to hope the hitters get hot and hope the pitching holds up, and for Richar to get healthy and replace Uribe at 2B.

For 2009, I'd like to see the following moves:

Trade Dye for a lock-down quality reliever (I want another Linebrink/Shields kid of guy) and prospects. Quentin to RF, Owens to LF and batting ninth.

Let Uribe go. Richar to 2B full-time.

Let Cabrera go. Ramirez to SS.

Use the savings to keep Crede, extend Jenks and sign Quentin to a deal that lasts though his arbitration years.

CF Swisher
2B Richar
DH Thome
1B Paulie
3B Crede (Ready to be in an RBI role)
C AJ
RF Quentin (Could hit .290 with 30 HRs here)
SS Ramirez (Would benefit from spending 2008 in Charlotte)
LF Owens (Get on base to give Swisher RBI chances, could have 50 SBs)

Use Fields as PH and DH/1B/3B/LF super-sub and BA as the 4th OF. Ozuna and Hall round out the bench.

Sorry, but I hate this lineup.
1)Swisher should be done leading off and playing CF after this year. The only reason he's doing it right now is out of necessity. Right now, it's looking like our biggest need will be a leadoff hitting centerfielder.

2)Richar first of all needs to get healthy. Then, he needs to be consistent enough to actually get that #2 spot.

3)Crede is not "ready" for an RBI role. Quentin is much better suited for that role. I'm pretty sure Ozzie agrees as Crede has been hitting most 8th this year. Crede shouldn't even be with the team. He had a great first couple of weeks and has been pretty crappy since then. Plus, his defense has been terrible so far this year. Just made another error, that's 6 on the season, and its cost us 5 runs this series.

4)Again, we need a leadoff hitting outfielder, so no Owens. Our outfield should be Swish in LF, New guy in CF, and Quentin in RF. Yes, that means no BA either...there's no fit for him.

5)Using Fields as a PH is just stupid. I can (somewhat) understand people saying that this year, but if Crede is re-signed (please, no), then Fields should be dealt for other needs.

Daver
05-03-2008, 03:03 PM
Fire Ozzie Guillen.

oeo
05-03-2008, 03:09 PM
Cabrera has 4 hits in his last 33 at-bats, with only 1 walk during that period. Granted all 4 of those have come since Tuesday, but he's not exactly tearing it up. And all 4 of those hits were singles.

I said he's coming around. He's hitting the ball hard, and looks the best that he has since he's gotten here.

And right after I typed that, Dye hit a dinger.

chisoxfanatic
05-03-2008, 03:09 PM
I never understood Russell's being brought up. It should've been Owens instead getting spot starts whenever Dye, Swish, or Quentin needed a night off or Swish relieved Konerko at 1B. I'd definitely support Owens being up here permanently and A-Ram spending some time at Charlotte to refine his hitting.

jabrch
05-03-2008, 03:10 PM
Fire Ozzie Guillen.

I'm not sure how that fixes anything. Who of our top 5 in the order will hit any better because Guillen isn't in the dugout?

If we fire OG - I'm fine with that. I have no love for him. But I don't think that move would make things any better.

WhiteSox5187
05-03-2008, 03:39 PM
Fire Ozzie Guillen.
If you're going to fire Ozzie you might as well clean house and fire Kenny too.

chisoxmike
05-03-2008, 03:45 PM
I went with the Richar option.

I want this team to have no part of Jerry Owens.

Chicken Dinner
05-03-2008, 03:54 PM
Richar or Owens will not fix the offense. I think a line-up shuffle might help. At this point, try anything.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 03:57 PM
Richar or Owens will not fix the offense. I think a line-up shuffle might help. At this point, try anything.

Owens has to come up and give it a try. Swisher is a joke in the 1-hole.

Rotate off days for Swisher, Konerko, Thome, Dye, and Owens.

ondafarm
05-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Is there an option for firing the entire coaching staff except for the pitching coach?

Daver
05-03-2008, 04:33 PM
Owens has to come up and give it a try. Swisher is a joke in the 1-hole.


This accomplishes what, exactly?

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 04:36 PM
Owens has to come up and give it a try. Swisher is a joke in the 1-hole.

Coming into today, he had the second highest OBP on the team and only Quentin had scored more runs. What more are you expecting out of him?

sox1970
05-03-2008, 04:39 PM
This accomplishes what, exactly?

It's an attempt to try something different. Swisher's OBP may be at a level that is acceptable for a leadoff guy, but he's not a leadoff guy.

The OBP will do nothing but drop from here.

Law11
05-03-2008, 04:45 PM
I'd Bring up Owens.. If and i say IF he can set the table at the top of the order with his speed at put swish back in the lineup where he belongs things just might spark. Of course the question is where do you play him and Swish with Carlos tearing it up.. Somebody is the odd man out and unless they are planning on moving Dye I dont see where Jerry gets anything other than spot duty. You could rest Thome a day here and there give PK the DH and put Swish at 1st, Owens in CF.

Its a tricky situation.. But this is going the way of late 06 all of 07 at this rate..

Daver
05-03-2008, 04:51 PM
It's an attempt to try something different. Swisher's OBP may be at a level that is acceptable for a leadoff guy, but he's not a leadoff guy.

The OBP will do nothing but drop from here.

Jerry Owens is a slap hitter with a low average and does not take walks, how does this make him a leadoff hitter?

sox1970
05-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Jerry Owens is a slap hitter with a low average and does not take walks, how does this make him a leadoff hitter?

I liked how he finished up last year, and how he's started off this year at AAA. He can steal bases, and put pressure on the pitcher. And he does get a fair amount of walks.

By no means am I saying Jerry Owens is an elite leadoff guy, but they gotta try something to change the offense. I think Swisher would be much more effective batting 6th or 7th.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 05:02 PM
I'd Bring up Owens.. If and i say IF he can set the table at the top of the order with his speed at put swish back in the lineup where he belongs things just might spark. Of course the question is where do you play him and Swish with Carlos tearing it up.. Somebody is the odd man out and unless they are planning on moving Dye I dont see where Jerry gets anything other than spot duty. You could rest Thome a day here and there give PK the DH and put Swish at 1st, Owens in CF. I've also reached the conclusion that -- short of a trade -- bringing Owens up to bat leadoff and play CF is the only thing likely to provide a spark from within the organization. And you're right, there seems to be no room for him because of TCQ's emergence and Swisher's supposed grindiness (not to mention what we gave up to get him).

The solution is to platoon Dye and Thome at DH, making room for Owens in the OF. I'm not saying I expect it to happen, and you can search the WSI archives to see I've never proposed any wacky trade or lineup switch. But right now that whole team must feel the same dread the rest of us do when our 3-4-5 hitters step to the plate. Removing any one of the three from the lineup on a daily basis doesn't feel like anything but a positive at the moment. Folks, that's not what 3-4-5 hitters are supposed to be about. And if I read one more quote from Konerko that his stats will be "where they need to be" by September, I'm going to scream. :gah:

OF of Quentin/Owens/Swisher would be better defensively than Quentin/Swisher/Dye. Owens in the lineup in place of either Dye or Thome would at least give us some chance of putting pressure on the opposing pitchers. Remember when we used to do that?

We'd see if Thome and Dye are the team players everyone claims they are. It wouldn't have to be a long-term solution, but something has to happen in the short term before this seasons slips away. Jermaine and Thome would still get at-bats, though not as many as they might like, obviously. At this point, Ozzie better not be worried about hurting their feelings.

EDIT: Probably the biggest reason I don't expect this to actually happen is that we'd have a two-headed DH monster making about $24M/year. But I don't see how that's any worse than paying 'em to take up two spots in the order instead of just one.

Vernam

Daver
05-03-2008, 05:09 PM
I liked how he finished up last year, and how he's started off this year at AAA. He can steal bases, and put pressure on the pitcher. And he does get a fair amount of walks.

By no means am I saying Jerry Owens is an elite leadoff guy, but they gotta try something to change the offense. I think Swisher would be much more effective batting 6th or 7th.

So you are going to sit Swisher or Quentin?

Playing Owens in CF at least adds some comedy to the game.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 05:12 PM
So you are going to sit Swisher or Quentin?

Playing Owens in CF at least adds some comedy to the game.

Quentin and Swisher need to be in the regular lineup, but they need to rotate an off day for Thome, Konerko, Dye, Swisher, and Owens. Mix it up.

I know I'm falling on deaf ears with you, but that's how I feel, and you can think how you want to too.

JB98
05-03-2008, 05:13 PM
It's a sad day when Sox fans are earnestly longing for the recall of Jerry Owens.

Frontman
05-03-2008, 05:15 PM
1: Fire Greg Walker, ASAP. This is going on two flamin' years of bad hitting. And the Sox new recruits went from batting decently at the beginning of the season to being clones of the 3-5 guys of adopting the "it's a home run or nothing" approach to baseball. If that wouldn't be a wake up call to the players; I don't know what will.

2: Flip the batting order around. I'm tired of seeing Cabrerra be Juan Uribe, just not as talented on defense (yeah, I said it.) He needs to be down in the order; as low as he can go. I'm sick of hearing how he's a vet, he knows what to do, blah, blah, blah. Stop talking about it, and DO IT!!!!

Based on this week's performance, I would do the following:

1 Swisher
2 Quentin
3 Pierzynksi
4 Dye
5 Konerko
6 Thome
7 Crede
8 Cabrerra
9 Uribe

If players fail in these roles, start bumping them down the roster.

3: Next time a player goes "oh-fer" for two games? BENCH THEM. I don't care if its Captain Konerko, BENCH HIS SORRY REAR IF HE LOOKS AT ANOTHER STRIKE THREE DOWN THE HEART OF THE PLATE!!! I know, you don't get out of a slump by sitting, but why bother working out of the slump when your job is secure?

4: If Uribe swings at another 55 foot curve ball, eat the damn 3 million and release him. That is pure BS. My 5 year old doesn't swing at pitches in the dirt like Juan does! You know it sucks to no end when we get on here and consider a flyout with the bases loaded to "BE AN IMPROVMENT FROM LAST SEASON!!!"

I'm just sick that an entire week of Sox baseball will now cost them first place; because they couldn't find a way to hit for an entire week.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 05:15 PM
It's a sad day when Sox fans are earnestly longing for the recall of Jerry Owens.

I'm longing for a change. Unfortunately, Owens is the best option for a change. When they draft or develop their own Grady Sizemore, then we're in business.

35th and Shields
05-03-2008, 05:16 PM
The only way that we can possibly try to fix the current offensive struggles would be trying to put Owens in the leadoff spot. Sending Alexi down and starting Owens vs. left handers would make perfect sense to me. I dont how many times i've seen Thome strikeout facing left handers, he just cant them. This way Dye could move to the DH, Swisher could slide over to a more comfortable corner outfield spot (and his natural spot in the lineup with Owens leading off) and Owens could play center. Not only could this stop are recent struggles but it would cut down on Thome's AB and would prevent his 2009 option to kick in. Of course this relies on Owens producing but I'll take a chance with the way were hitting

JB98
05-03-2008, 05:17 PM
I'm longing for a change. Unfortunately, Owens is the best option for a change. When they draft or develop their own Grady Sizemore, then we're in business.

That's the rub. We don't have a good leadoff hitter anywhere in our organization, to my knowledge. I understand the desire for more speed. I just don't think Jerry Owens is a good enough player to give us a spark.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 05:19 PM
It's a sad day when Sox fans are earnestly longing for the recall of Jerry Owens.Agreed, but do you really think we'd be worse off with him in the lineup than the current 3-4-5 monolith? To me, it'd be a win-win. Get some speed in there, and reduce the AB's of one or two of the glacial Konerko/Thome/Dye. I don't see how breaking those three up could be anything but positive right now, even if it's just a temporary thing.

When Chris Ronge starts calling for a switch, I know my time has come. :wink:

Vernam

TDog
05-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Jerry Owens is a slap hitter with a low average and does not take walks, how does this make him a leadoff hitter?

I agree about Owens. I wouldn't mind replacing Swisher, but the Sox could do worse, i.e. Jerry Owens. Some people look at speed and scream "leadoff hitter." The Sox would be better off with Alexi Ramirez leading off.

If Owens were a slap hitter who was successful at slapping his way on base and walked, he might make a good leadoff hitter with the bonus of being speedy. From what he has shown, pitchers will come after him because he isn't much of an offensive threat.

Bringing a player up to inject some excitement into the team isn't a bad idea, per se. But this team needs more of a trade for a (1983) Julio Cruz than a promotion from the minors.

Frontman
05-03-2008, 05:20 PM
You know the problem is as well is that currently, beyond Ozuna; there is no MLB level players on the roster who can come off the bench and pinch run. Ramierez has no biz being on the MLB roster, that has been made abundantly clear. Send him down, let him get his at bats as the Sox will need him next season. Bring up Owens, if at the very least to rotate into the outfield or come off as a late inning runner.

JB98
05-03-2008, 05:25 PM
Agreed, but do you really think we'd be worse off with him in the lineup than the current 3-4-5 monolith? To me, it'd be a win-win. Get some speed in there, and reduce the AB's of one or two of the glacial Konerko/Thome/Dye. I don't see how breaking those three up could be anything but positive right now, even if it's just a temporary thing.

When Chris Ronge starts calling for a switch, I know my time has come. :wink:

Vernam

For the time being, I'd just throw Ozuna up there in the leadoff spot and drop Swisher down to fifth. Drop Dye down to sixth. A lot of the discussion here is about the 3-4-5 monolith, but the 1-2 spots aren't doing **** either.

A lot of it stems from Swisher, who isn't aggressive enough at the plate right now. The leadoff spot has caused him to change his approach. His slugging percentage is way, way down over his career norms. Where are all the doubles and home runs this guy hit as a member of the Oakland A's?

For the time being, just get him out of the leadoff spot. Let him work out his swing. Put him in a spot where he can be more aggressive.

Dye had two good swings in his last two AB today. Cross your fingers that he's coming out of it, because he has KILLED us on this trip with his Ks.

Chicken Dinner
05-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Jerry Owens being the offensive savior of these team is pure horse ****. His presence in the line-up would do nothing more then make the team defensively weaker and he will not help Thome,PK,Dye, Swish, Uribe, OC, or Crede hit any better.

TDog
05-03-2008, 05:43 PM
... For the time being, just get him out of the leadoff spot. Let him work out his swing. Put him in a spot where he can be more aggressive. ...

Last year Swisher hit just about everywhere but the leadoff spot -- second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth. More than half of his games were in the RBI spots in the order. He was never any more aggressive than he has been this year.

Swisher isn't taking a lot of pitches because he's a leadoff man. He's a leadoff man because he takes a lot of pitches.

Corlose 15
05-03-2008, 05:43 PM
Would anybody else like to see the Sox develop Richar into a leadoff hitter?

He takes pitches, has good speed, has some pop, has the potential to have a fairly good OBP and doesn't bump one of the OBP outfielders out of the lineup.


He's a solid 2B and will give you more at the plate than Uribe.

JB98
05-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Last year Swisher hit just about everywhere but the leadoff spot -- second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth. More than half of his games were in the RBI spots in the order. He was never any more aggressive than he has been this year.

Swisher isn't taking a lot of pitches because he's a leadoff man. He's a leadoff man because he takes a lot of pitches.

And right now, all he's doing is striking out looking. Time to try something else.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Would anybody else like to see the Sox develop Richar into a leadoff hitter?

He takes pitches, has good speed, has some pop, has the potential to have a fairly good OBP and doesn't bump one of the OBP outfielders out of the lineup.


He's a solid 2B and will give you more at the plate than Uribe.

The problem with Richar is that he's probably still two weeks from playing at Charlotte. Then he's got to play for at least a few weeks.

If and when he comes up, he'll be in the 9-hole for at least a month.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 05:49 PM
For the time being, I'd just throw Ozuna up there in the leadoff spot and drop Swisher down to fifth. Drop Dye down to sixth. A lot of the discussion here is about the 3-4-5 monolith, but the 1-2 spots aren't doing **** either.Trouble with Pablo is that he's such a defensive downgrade, as he showed today. I know some people feel the same about Owens, but I think his main defensive shortcoming is his arm. I don't trust Ozuna as an everyday fielder, no matter the position.

A lot of it stems from Swisher, who isn't aggressive enough at the plate right now. The leadoff spot has caused him to change his approach. His slugging percentage is way, way down over his career norms. Where are all the doubles and home runs this guy hit as a member of the Oakland A's? He did put a good swing on that ball today with Crede at third, and Overbay looked surprised to find it in his glove. At the start of the season, I saw Swisher and thought: "Wow, look at that astronomical OBP, even with such a mediocre BA. Just wait 'til he warms up." Now I think: "Wow, look at that good OBP, even with a terrible BA. If he didn't walk so much, he'd be batting .090." :(: So yeah, getting him out of the leadoff spot would be fine with me. I'd just rather see Owens than Ozuna.

Dye had two good swings in his last two AB today. Cross your fingers that he's coming out of it, because he has KILLED us on this trip with his Ks.:nod: This is now an annual rite of spring, where we get our asses handed to us by the Twins and start feeling all remorseful about our all-or-nothing thumpers! You're right that it's not just the 3-4-5. On paper, it was exciting to add Thome in '06, and he's played pretty well for us. Likewise, Paulie and Jermaine have had some great, great moments. But as a trio, their record is now a long losing one. We've changed a lot of things around them, and they've been the constant since April 2006. I've seen enough for the time being. Everyone's so sure JD will be DH next year, let him split it now with Thome and see what a bit more speed in the lineup can do.

Vernam

sullythered
05-03-2008, 05:51 PM
Right now, I move Thome down to six or seven. Certainly out of three. I know he's a hall of famer and yada yada yada. He isn't making up for his strikeouts with big hits right now. If he can't do that, we need to split he and Konerko up permanently. Give Carlos a shot up farther in the lineup.

I also think Swish is forcing it a little bit at the leadoff spot. I really liked him there to start the season, but I think his potential power might be going to waste a little bit. Don't ask me for a solution at lead-off, though. I have no idea.

JB98
05-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Trouble with Pablo is that he's such a defensive downgrade, as he showed today. I know some people feel the same about Owens, but I think his main defensive shortcoming is his arm. I don't trust Ozuna as an everyday fielder, no matter the position.

He did put a good swing on that ball today with Crede at third, and Overbay looked surprised to find it in his glove. At the start of the season, I saw Swisher and thought: "Wow, look at that astronomical OBP, even with such a mediocre BA. Just wait 'til he warms up." Now I think: "Wow, look at that good OBP, even with a terrible BA. If he didn't walk so much, he'd be batting .090." :(: So yeah, getting him out of the leadoff spot would be fine with me. I'd just rather see Owens than Ozuna.

:nod: This is now an annual rite of spring, where we get our asses handed to us by the Twins and start feeling all remorseful about our all-or-nothing thumpers! You're right that it's not just the 3-4-5. On paper, it was exciting to add Thome in '06, and he's played pretty well for us. Likewise, Paulie and Jermaine have had some great, great moments. But as a trio, their record is now a long losing one. We've changed a lot of things around them, and they've been the constant since April 2006. I've seen enough for the time being. Everyone's so sure JD will be DH next year, let him split it now with Thome and see what a bit more speed in the lineup can do.

Vernam

Actually, we are .500 since Thome joined the team:

2006: 90-72
2007: 72-90
2008: 14-14
Total: 176-176

It's not a "long, losing record," but it isn't good enough either.

And I agree with you about Ozuna's defense. He's a liability. But he's sparked us in the past offensively. I'm looking for a short-term offensive spark. Obviously, Pablo is the answer to nothing over the long haul. I realize he's a career bench player for a reason.

DickAllen72
05-03-2008, 05:52 PM
If Ozzie doesn't appear to care why should any of us? He keeps trotting the same sorry ass batting order out there day in and day out with .220 hitters batting in the middle while their best hitter is batting seventh and their other clutch hitter is batting eighth.

Ozzie believes in his hitting coach and he believes in his stupid lineup. It hasn't worked for almost two full seasons now but he's in charge. It's his call. Let's just watch and see what happens. No use getting worked up over something we have no input about anyway.

Now to answer the topic of the thread, if it were up to me I'd begin by putting Carlos Quentin in the three hole.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 05:55 PM
Jerry Owens being the offensive savior of these team is pure horse ****. His presence in the line-up would do nothing more then make the team defensively weaker and he will not help Thome,PK,Dye, Swish, Uribe, OC, or Crede hit any better.First, speaking just for myself, I don't think Owens is a savior. I just want to see what he can add offensively, because right now there is nothing. Short of a trade, he's the only option that might bring a spark. If someone's arguing the lineup shouldn't be shaken up, that's a pretty lonely point of view. Shaking it up without bringing in new blood would just be rearranging deck chairs.

Second, I don't agree that an OF of Quentin/Owens/Swisher would be inferior to Quentin/Swisher/Dye. Owens is comparable to Swisher in CF, and Swisher is far superior to Dye in RF.

Vernam

Daver
05-03-2008, 05:58 PM
Owens is comparable to Swisher in CF, and Swisher is far superior to Dye in RF.

Vernam


This was supposed to be in teal right?

TDog
05-03-2008, 06:01 PM
Actually, we are .500 since Thome joined the team:

2006: 90-72
2007: 72-90
2008: 14-14
Total: 176-176

It's not a "long, losing record," but it isn't good enough either.

And I agree with you about Ozuna's defense. He's a liability. But he's sparked us in the past offensively. I'm looking for a short-term offensive spark. Obviously, Pablo is the answer to nothing over the long haul. I realize he's a career bench player for a reason.

For that matter, we are .500 since Swisher, Cabrera, Quentin, Dotel and Linebrink came to the team.

Optipessimism
05-03-2008, 06:02 PM
I'd change the lineup:

Swisher
Dye
Quentin
Thome
Konerko
Crede
Pierzynski
Uribe
Cabrera

Edit: And as soon as I could, I'd get Richar up here. I'd even consider bringing up Chris Getz if I had to shortly. I'd look for a cheap stopgap 2B on the trade market if Richar is going to be out until mid-June. It could be anyone that the Sox wouldn't have to give up more than a, C- level prospect for.

Jjav829
05-03-2008, 06:09 PM
It's an attempt to try something different. Swisher's OBP may be at a level that is acceptable for a leadoff guy, but he's not a leadoff guy.

The OBP will do nothing but drop from here.

Swisher's? Why? What makes you think his OBP will go down at all, much less "do nothing but drop from here?" He's put up OBPs of .372 and .381 the last two years. Why is it that he now can't manage to sustain a .369 OBP?

sullythered
05-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Swisher's? Why? What makes you think his OBP will go down at all, much less "do nothing but drop from here?" He's put up OBPs of .372 and .381 the last two years. Why is it that he now can't manage to sustain a .369 OBP?

I'm pretty sure it will go up. I expect Swish to get his average up to closer to his history, which will automatically raise the OBP.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 06:20 PM
This was supposed to be in teal right?Nope. Which part do you take issue with? Owens's speed in CF makes him comparable there, IMO, to Swisher (who has a better arm and instincts). I don't see any comparison between Dye and Swisher in the OF. Put another way, is there any chance JD could play center? If the answer is no, then I don't see what makes him comparable to Swisher in the field.

That Owens is comparable (I didn't say equal) to Swisher in CF could be debated, obviously. To me, Swisher looks like a huge upgrade defensively over Dye. But what's more likely in the long run is that he'd be in left, with Quentin in RF. I'm just not sure they'd do that in the short run. Heck, I'm not sure they'd do any of it in the short run, but they should.

Vernam

Daver
05-03-2008, 06:24 PM
Nope. Which part do you take issue with? Owens's speed in CF makes him comparable there, IMO, to Swisher (who has a better arm and instincts). I don't see any comparison between Dye and Swisher in the OF. Put another way, is there any chance JD could play center? If the answer is no, then I don't see what makes him comparable to Swisher in the field.

That Owens is comparable (I didn't say equal) to Swisher in CF could be debated, obviously. To me, Swisher looks like a huge upgrade defensively over Dye. But what's more likely in the long run is that he'd be in left, with Quentin in RF. I'm just not sure they'd do that in the short run. Heck, I'm not sure they'd do any of it in the short run, but they should.

Vernam

Speed does not equal range, in any way, shape, or form.

Their is no comparison that can be made between Owens and Swisher, one has instincts, range, and a good throwing arm, and one doesn't have any of the three.

To even try and make the argument is laughable at best.

JB98
05-03-2008, 06:25 PM
Speed does not equal range, in any way, shape, or form.

Their is no comparison that can be made between Owens and Swisher, one has instincts, range, and a good throwing arm, and one doesn't have any of the three.

To even try and make the argument is laughable at best.

I think Swish is our second-best defensive outfielder, behind Anderson. And the gap isn't that great.

Swisher has been a pleasant surprise defensively. I didn't realize he was this good.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Speed does not equal range, in any way, shape, or form.

Their is no comparison that can be made between Owens and Swisher, one has instincts, range, and a good throwing arm, and one doesn't have any of the three.

To even try and make the argument is laughable at best.Laugh away then, I guess. There were a lot of people (not me) just one month ago who thought putting Swisher in CF was the real joke, so go figure.

Vernam

Daver
05-03-2008, 06:31 PM
Laugh away then, I guess. There were a lot of people (not me) just one month ago who thought putting Swisher in CF was the real joke, so go figure.

Vernam

I was not one of those people, and I have no idea what that has to do with comparing Swisher and Owens.

Vernam
05-03-2008, 06:41 PM
I was not one of those people, and I have no idea what that has to do with comparing Swisher and Owens.The point is that conventional wisdom is often wrong.

Back to my original point, do you think an OF of Quentin/Owens/Swisher (not even Swisher/Owens/Quentin, which I might prefer) would be weaker defensively than Quentin/Swisher/Dye?

Vernam

sox1970
05-03-2008, 06:44 PM
If Owens, Swisher, and Quentin were in the same lineup, I'd have them in that order: Owens in left, Swisher in center, Quentin in right.

Daver
05-03-2008, 06:49 PM
The point is that conventional wisdom is often wrong.

Back to my original point, do you think an OF of Quentin/Owens/Swisher (not even Swisher/Owens/Quentin, which I might prefer) would be weaker defensively than Quentin/Swisher/Dye?

Vernam

Yes it would. Dye has lost a step or two, but still gets good reads and gets close to the ball, Quentin gets good reads, which helps overcome his limited range, Swisher has been discussed. Even if Owens is in left the Sox are weaker defensively.

If you want to add some speed in the line-up, sit Uribe and let Ramirez play second everyday and hit in the two hole.

Frontman
05-03-2008, 06:51 PM
Yes it would. Dye has lost a step or two, but still gets good reads and gets close to the ball, Quentin gets good reads, which helps overcome his limited range, Swisher has been discussed. Even if Owens is in left the Sox are weaker defensively.

If you want to add some speed in the line-up, sit Uribe and let Ramirez play second everyday and hit in the two hole.

Have him do nothing but bunt, and you got a solid idea there. He's the only guy on the roster who seems to understand that aspect of the game anymore......

Soxfest
05-03-2008, 07:00 PM
Sox fired Gary Ward's ass and team was not hitting anywhere near this bad. The Walker love affair has to come to an end! http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif

ksimpson14
05-03-2008, 07:07 PM
Every time a game has a solo HR or missed execution, male strippers should be hired in the clubhouse to make everyone uncomfortable. Put some base hits together

MCHSoxFan
05-03-2008, 08:03 PM
I've also reached the conclusion that -- short of a trade -- bringing Owens up to bat leadoff and play CF is the only thing likely to provide a spark from within the organization. And you're right, there seems to be no room for him because of TCQ's emergence and Swisher's supposed grindiness (not to mention what we gave up to get him).

I know I am in the minority with you. However, I TOTALLY agree with you! Just try Owens here. Then, have CQ in LF, Swisher in RF, and change Dye/Thome in the DH spot. When you rest PK, put Swish in at 1B, Dye in RF, JO in CF, CQ in LF, and Thome in at DH.

YEEESSS!!!

MCHSoxFan
05-03-2008, 08:07 PM
One more thing! I did just say bring up Jerry Owens. However, I do think our regular line-up hitters will come around...SOON!

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Second, I don't agree that an OF of Quentin/Owens/Swisher would be inferior to Quentin/Swisher/Dye. Owens is comparable to Swisher in CF, and Swisher is far superior to Dye in RF.

Vernam

What about going with Owens/Swisher/Quentin?

MCHSoxFan
05-03-2008, 08:10 PM
1: Fire Greg Walker, ASAP. This is going on two flamin' years of bad hitting. And the Sox new recruits went from batting decently at the beginning of the season to being clones of the 3-5 guys of adopting the "it's a home run or nothing" approach to baseball. If that wouldn't be a wake up call to the players; I don't know what will.

2: Flip the batting order around. I'm tired of seeing Cabrerra be Juan Uribe, just not as talented on defense (yeah, I said it.) He needs to be down in the order; as low as he can go. I'm sick of hearing how he's a vet, he knows what to do, blah, blah, blah. Stop talking about it, and DO IT!!!!

Based on this week's performance, I would do the following:

1 Swisher
2 Quentin
3 Pierzynksi
4 Dye
5 Konerko
6 Thome
7 Crede
8 Cabrerra
9 Uribe

If players fail in these roles, start bumping them down the roster.

3: Next time a player goes "oh-fer" for two games? BENCH THEM. I don't care if its Captain Konerko, BENCH HIS SORRY REAR IF HE LOOKS AT ANOTHER STRIKE THREE DOWN THE HEART OF THE PLATE!!! I know, you don't get out of a slump by sitting, but why bother working out of the slump when your job is secure?

4: If Uribe swings at another 55 foot curve ball, eat the damn 3 million and release him. That is pure BS. My 5 year old doesn't swing at pitches in the dirt like Juan does! You know it sucks to no end when we get on here and consider a flyout with the bases loaded to "BE AN IMPROVMENT FROM LAST SEASON!!!"

I'm just sick that an entire week of Sox baseball will now cost them first place; because they couldn't find a way to hit for an entire week.

PERFECT!...Just PERFECT! However, I would keep GW.

Brian26
05-03-2008, 08:41 PM
Put Fisk in the 2-hole and trade for Julio Cruz.

Grzegorz
05-03-2008, 09:58 PM
Owens would bring speed, but does it matter if guys aren't hitting the ball? He'll steal some bases, but we still need the bats to push him around.

If, and that's a big if, Owens gets on base the options Ozzie has increase.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 09:59 PM
Tony Bernazard would look awfully nice at 2B right now...

Owens cannot be the answer because there's no place to play him.

The first thing I'd do would be to subtract Uribe from the offense. Unfortunately, Richar's not healthy, Ozuna is shaky defensively, and Ramirez isn't ready. I might actually try Chris Getz at second, since he's a legitimate 2B and a leadoff man type, even though he needs a bit more seasoning. Bring him up, tell him he's going back down in two weeks to take the pressure off, just see what he can do.

The second thing I'd do would be to shake up the batting order:

Getz - Swisher - Konerko - Quentin - Thome - Dye - Pierzynski - Cabrera -Crede.

That would give Cabrera a wake-up call, move Swisher into a better slot for his talents, reward TCQ, and split up the slowest runners.

TDog
05-03-2008, 10:07 PM
Tony Bernazard would look awfully nice at 2B right now ...

It's ironic that you mention this in pink (the color of wishes) because 25 years ago this season the White Sox traded Tony Bernazard when the team was stagnating and seemingly going nowhere not unlike now. At the time people were upset that it was the only move at the June 15 trade deadline. The team took off and didn't look back before forgetting how to hit in October.

Julio Cruz was the sparkplug, but he was a bust after the White Sox signed him as a free agent for the 1984 season and not much beyond, as his career turned out.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 10:14 PM
It's ironic that you mention this in pink (the color of wishes) because 25 years ago this season the White Sox traded Tony Bernazard when the team was stagnating and seemingly going nowhere not unlike now. At the time people were upset that it was the only move at the June 15 trade deadline. The team took off and didn't look back before forgetting how to hit in October.

Julio Cruz was the sparkplug, but he was a bust after the White Sox signed him as a free agent for the 1984 season and not much beyond, as his career turned out.

Bernazard hit .262/.306/.373 before the trade, Cruz hit .251/.311/.311 after the trade. Cruz was a great defensive 2B and a basestealer, but he was in the right place at the right time. Either one of them would be an improvement over Uribe at second.

PeoriaSoxFan
05-03-2008, 10:53 PM
Every time a game has a solo HR or missed execution, male strippers should be hired in the clubhouse to make everyone uncomfortable. Put some base hits together

This is by far the most creative solution yet. Everyone else is just spewing the same old garbage. If it is going to be male strippers, I suggest contacting John Daly, who should make everyone uncomfortable enough to get some results. Has anyone seen the video of him golfing shirtless and shoeless doing a TV interview? Classic.

PeoriaSoxFan
05-03-2008, 11:07 PM
My deep seated fear is that this isn't going to get better. There are some who still say these guys have hit in the past, so they will start hitting soon. Well, they also sucked in the past (i.e., 2007). There is a long enough pattern here to recongnize there is a problem. I like Walker, but how does he still have a job? How long have we looked bad against mediocre pitching? Every team has a budding Cy Young when we face them. We haven't even faced many of the top AL pitchers yet. What will happen then? We face Halladay tomorrow! Granted it is only a month, but Cabrerra and Swisher seem to be looking a lot more like 07 Sox hitters than what they have in the past. If that trend continues, that can't bolster Walker's cause.

I think Owens would help, but where do you put him? I like them both, but I think this team will be ultimately better when Dye and Thome are gone. I hate to say that, but something needs to change.

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 11:15 PM
Bernazard hit .262/.306/.373 before the trade, Cruz hit .251/.311/.311 after the trade. Cruz was a great defensive 2B and a basestealer, but he was in the right place at the right time. Either one of them would be an improvement over Uribe at second.

No...Cruz helped create "the right place at the right time". He was a real catalyst/spark plug for that team..turned an incredible double play.

jabrch
05-03-2008, 11:41 PM
Let's just trade for Andruw Jones. His .161/.278/.258/.536 for 18mm would be just awesome...

voodoochile
05-04-2008, 12:03 AM
My deep seated fear is that this isn't going to get better. There are some who still say these guys have hit in the past, so they will start hitting soon. Well, they also sucked in the past (i.e., 2007). There is a long enough pattern here to recongnize there is a problem. ... Granted it is only a month, but Cabrerra and Swisher seem to be looking a lot more like 07 Sox hitters than what they have in the past. If that trend continues, that can't bolster Walker's cause.

Let's look at that...

2008 starters 2007 offensive stats:

Jim Thome: 35 HR 96 RBI .275 BA. .410 OBP .563 SLG .973 OPS (Definitely did not suck)

Paul Konerko: 34 2B 31 HR 90 RBI .259/.351/.490/.841 (Not too shabby, little down, but only middle order guy who didn't spend time on DL, so can't complain)

Jermaine Dye: 34 2B 28 HR 78 RBI .254/.317/.486/.804 (Not great, but considering he was injured the first half, not bad - second half numbers: 242 AB 20 2B 16 HR 39 RBI .298/.368/.579/.947 - nice line JD seems about right for the rest of your time on the southside)

Juan Uribe: He sucks offensively. I'll concede this one. However he's at an extra deep level of suckiness this year for whatever reason. Maybe he's pressing knowing it's a contract year, whatever. He won't be here next year and he's merely a stopgap until Richar arrives anyway. He wouldn't be playing if Richar were healthy to start the year.

Joe Crede: Only played 47 games before going out with a back injury. Stats are prett much irrelevant. He's got a nice season going this year, so he's not really part of the discussion.

AJP: 24 2B 14 HR .263/.309/.403/.712 meh, but he's hitting better this year, so again, not part of the discussion about how hitters are hitting like it's 2007.

Pablo Ozuna: Played in 27 games, got hurt.

Of the rest only Owens and Richar and Fields saw significant PT. The rest of the team is gone (BA had 13 games and the pitchers batted some) but the others who led to such a craptacular offensive season last year are simply gone:

Iguchi, Pods, Erstadt, Mackowiak, Cintron, Terrero all gone.

Guys who have joined the team:

TCQ: Rookie - no significant PT in the majors prior to this year: Currently leading the team in HR, TB, RBI, OBP, SLG and OPS. He's second in Hits and BA. Not part of the problem. Nice upgrade from the debacle in LF that was last season.

Orlando Cabrera: 2007 stats - 101 R, 35 2B, 20 SB, .301/.345/.397/.742 Currently slumping horribly to start the season, but brought in to upgrade SS and he's currently outhitting Uribe, so we can't really complain :tongue: ... If he continues to slump it's a problem, but his career line is .272/.320/.400/.720 so he should improve.

Nick Swisher: 2007 Stats - 36 2B, 22 HR, 100 BB, .262/.381/.455/.836. Another guy who is struggling, but who has solid career numbers to back up those single season numbers and is young. Currently hitting 180 points below his Career OPS average.

Of course only 6 players on the team appeared in 100 or more games last year and one of them was Fields.

So go ahead, keep expecting to see the 2007 results offensively, but the fact of the matter is 2007 is gone and injuries waiting to happen guys like Erstadt and Pods have been replaced with younger better players. The fact that last year sucked offensively has NOTHING to do with the current struggles this team is facing.

Edit: Whoops, left off Toby Hall. You figure it out. He's got 19 AB this season. He's not part of the offensive woes.

NADA SURF
05-04-2008, 12:15 AM
The thing is...Carlos Lee hit .305-31-99 in 2004 and we replaced him with Pods who delivered .290-0-25 with 59 SBs (82 attempts) and it seemed to work. It's still counter intuitive to me...but having a guy like this in the line up seems to be the secret ingredient (more fastballs while he's on base, some pressure on the other team, distracted pitchers, positioning of the infielders changes, ability to manufacture runs in low scoring game, etc.).

I wish we had other options besides Owens...but I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is what's missing from this team. Owens won't hit .290...but my guess is he could hit .265-.270.
You're the brightest guy on here!

NADA SURF
05-04-2008, 12:18 AM
Let's look at that...

2008 starters 2007 offensive stats:

Jim Thome: 35 HR 96 RBI .275 BA. .410 OBP .563 SLG .973 OPS (Definitely did not suck)

Paul Konerko: 34 2B 31 HR 90 RBI .259/.351/.490/.841 (Not too shabby, little down, but only middle order guy who didn't spend time on DL, so can't complain)

Jermaine Dye: 34 2B 28 HR 78 RBI .254/.317/.486/.804 (Not great, but considering he was injured the first half, not bad - second half numbers: 242 AB 20 2B 16 HR 39 RBI .298/.368/.579/.947 - nice line JD seems about right for the rest of your time on the southside)

Juan Uribe: He sucks offensively. I'll concede this one. However he's at an extra deep level of suckiness this year for whatever reason. Maybe he's pressing knowing it's a contract year, whatever. He won't be here next year and he's merely a stopgap until Richar arrives anyway. He wouldn't be playing if Richar were healthy to start the year.

Joe Crede: Only played 47 games before going out with a back injury. Stats are prett much irrelevant. He's got a nice season going this year, so he's not really part of the discussion.

AJP: 24 2B 14 HR .263/.309/.403/.712 meh, but he's hitting better this year, so again, not part of the discussion about how hitters are hitting like it's 2007.

Pablo Ozuna: Played in 27 games, got hurt.

Of the rest only Owens and Richar and Fields saw significant PT. The rest of the team is gone (BA had 13 games and the pitchers batted some) but the others who led to such a craptacular offensive season last year are simply gone:

Iguchi, Pods, Erstadt, Mackowiak, Cintron, Terrero all gone.

Guys who have joined the team:

TCQ: Rookie - no significant PT in the majors prior to this year: Currently leading the team in HR, TB, RBI, OBP, SLG and OPS. He's second in Hits and BA. Not part of the problem. Nice upgrade from the debacle in LF that was last season.

Orlando Cabrera: 2007 stats - 101 R, 35 2B, 20 SB, .301/.345/.397/.742 Currently slumping horribly to start the season, but brought in to upgrade SS and he's currently outhitting Uribe, so we can't really complain :tongue: ... If he continues to slump it's a problem, but his career line is .272/.320/.400/.720 so he should improve.

Nick Swisher: 2007 Stats - 36 2B, 22 HR, 100 BB, .262/.381/.455/.836. Another guy who is struggling, but who has solid career numbers to back up those single season numbers and is young. Currently hitting 180 points below his Career OPS average.

Of course only 6 players on the team appeared in 100 or more games last year and one of them was Fields.

So go ahead, keep expecting to see the 2007 results offensively, but the fact of the matter is 2007 is gone and injuries waiting to happen guys like Erstadt and Pods have been replaced with younger better players. The fact that last year sucked offensively has NOTHING to do with the current struggles this team is facing.

Edit: Whoops, left off Toby Hall. You figure it out. He's got 19 AB this season. He's not part of the offensive woes.
Sorry, but, yes, we CAN complain heavily about Konerko and Dye...
You should throw many of those stats out.

voodoochile
05-04-2008, 12:24 AM
Sorry, but, yes, we CAN complain heavily about Konerko and Dye...
You should throw many of those stats out.

Heck of a rebuttal there, Surf. I mean the depth of thought and breakdown is wow... mindboggling... thanks for sharing.

kaufsox
05-04-2008, 12:53 AM
I voted other. We should annex the Sudetenland

The Dude
05-04-2008, 12:57 AM
I would do nothing. Where would he play Tom?

Maybe fire Greg Walker.

Can anyone seriously make a substantial case for Owens to play over ANYONE?

Greg Walker should have been fired last year. He is definitely past due. :angry:

kaufsox
05-04-2008, 01:04 AM
Let's look at that...

2008 starters 2007 offensive stats:

Jim Thome: 35 HR 96 RBI .275 BA. .410 OBP .563 SLG .973 OPS (Definitely did not suck)

Paul Konerko: 34 2B 31 HR 90 RBI .259/.351/.490/.841 (Not too shabby, little down, but only middle order guy who didn't spend time on DL, so can't complain)

Jermaine Dye: 34 2B 28 HR 78 RBI .254/.317/.486/.804 (Not great, but considering he was injured the first half, not bad - second half numbers: 242 AB 20 2B 16 HR 39 RBI .298/.368/.579/.947 - nice line JD seems about right for the rest of your time on the southside)

Juan Uribe: He sucks offensively. I'll concede this one. However he's at an extra deep level of suckiness this year for whatever reason. Maybe he's pressing knowing it's a contract year, whatever. He won't be here next year and he's merely a stopgap until Richar arrives anyway. He wouldn't be playing if Richar were healthy to start the year.

Joe Crede: Only played 47 games before going out with a back injury. Stats are prett much irrelevant. He's got a nice season going this year, so he's not really part of the discussion.

AJP: 24 2B 14 HR .263/.309/.403/.712 meh, but he's hitting better this year, so again, not part of the discussion about how hitters are hitting like it's 2007.

Pablo Ozuna: Played in 27 games, got hurt.

Of the rest only Owens and Richar and Fields saw significant PT. The rest of the team is gone (BA had 13 games and the pitchers batted some) but the others who led to such a craptacular offensive season last year are simply gone:

Iguchi, Pods, Erstadt, Mackowiak, Cintron, Terrero all gone.

Guys who have joined the team:

TCQ: Rookie - no significant PT in the majors prior to this year: Currently leading the team in HR, TB, RBI, OBP, SLG and OPS. He's second in Hits and BA. Not part of the problem. Nice upgrade from the debacle in LF that was last season.

Orlando Cabrera: 2007 stats - 101 R, 35 2B, 20 SB, .301/.345/.397/.742 Currently slumping horribly to start the season, but brought in to upgrade SS and he's currently outhitting Uribe, so we can't really complain :tongue: ... If he continues to slump it's a problem, but his career line is .272/.320/.400/.720 so he should improve.

Nick Swisher: 2007 Stats - 36 2B, 22 HR, 100 BB, .262/.381/.455/.836. Another guy who is struggling, but who has solid career numbers to back up those single season numbers and is young. Currently hitting 180 points below his Career OPS average.

Of course only 6 players on the team appeared in 100 or more games last year and one of them was Fields.

So go ahead, keep expecting to see the 2007 results offensively, but the fact of the matter is 2007 is gone and injuries waiting to happen guys like Erstadt and Pods have been replaced with younger better players. The fact that last year sucked offensively has NOTHING to do with the current struggles this team is facing.

Edit: Whoops, left off Toby Hall. You figure it out. He's got 19 AB this season. He's not part of the offensive woes.

Can't argue with stats, well I could but that is just foolish. What appears like 07 is the feeling like we are currently in a death spiral and we won't be coming out of it. I don't particularly believe that, but I know I've seen this movie before. Also, as the stats indicate, those are numbers from the entire year. What were the same numbers in May and June of 07? They could rebound, have similar years, and achieve no greater success than last year's. Again, I don't particularly believe that, but a big enough hole by May 31, and the post season becomes a remote possibility. And yet, I hope...

TornLabrum
05-04-2008, 10:13 AM
Greg Walker should have been fired last year. He is definitely past due. :angry:

Yes, that will change everything!

Dan Mega
05-04-2008, 10:38 AM
Yes, that will change everything!

At this point the Sox are dead last in average, so it certainly couldn't get worse.

spiffie
05-04-2008, 10:47 AM
Well, since Greg Walker is either A) terrible as a hitting coach or B) superfluous since these are all major leaguers and changing hitting coaches won't change a thing I say we fire him, take his remaining salary in $10 bills, and let random fans stand in one of those money boxes each game and try to catch as much cash as possible in 1 minute. Sure it might not help the team, but it would make things exciting and be a much more fun promotion than the hockey puck shooting.

voodoochile
05-04-2008, 10:51 AM
Well, since Greg Walker is either A) terrible as a hitting coach or B) superfluous since these are all major leaguers and changing hitting coaches won't change a thing I say we fire him, take his remaining salary in $10 bills, and let random fans stand in one of those money boxes each game and try to catch as much cash as possible in 1 minute. Sure it might not help the team, but it would make things exciting and be a much more fun promotion than the hockey puck shooting.

They should have the cash box move around the outfield while the Sox are batting so it is always opposite field in fair territory for the Sox batter in question. If the batter hits the cash box on a line drive or off a hop or two the fan gets their money doubled and the player gets a matching amount.

Vernam
05-04-2008, 11:02 AM
What about going with Owens/Swisher/Quentin?That might make sense, too/instead. Conventional wisdom when we got Quentin was that he'd eventually go to RF when Dye's days there were over. He definitely has the arm, but he may not be quite as mobile as advertised. A big improvement over Jermaine, but I'm not sure Swisher wouldn't be a better RF.

For the anti-Owens folks, putting him in LF would be less objectionable, I suppose. He might never be a Gold Glover, but he's definitely no Pods in LF, either. We just need to find out if he can be a vintage 2005 Pods on offense, IMO. If any change is going to come from within the organization at this point, that's the only one I see making much of a (positive) difference. The rationale for keeping him at Charlotte once he healed was that we were clicking on all cylinders with Swisher at leadoff. That's no longer the case, to put it mildly.

EDIT: I meant Owens in LF, not RF.

Vernam

103 screwball
05-04-2008, 11:24 AM
Quentin must bat third. It could change the dynamic of the whole lineup. If Thome and Konerko's pride gets hurt then maybe they wake up and start to hit.

jabrch
05-04-2008, 11:26 AM
At this point the Sox are dead last in average, so it certainly couldn't get worse.

Who cares about batting average - we walk a lot!!!

TomBradley72
05-04-2008, 12:21 PM
Owens cannot be the answer because there's no place to play him.

The second thing I'd do would be to shake up the batting order:

Getz - Swisher - Konerko - Quentin - Thome - Dye - Pierzynski - Cabrera -Crede.

That would give Cabrera a wake-up call, move Swisher into a better slot for his talents, reward TCQ, and split up the slowest runners.

Cabrera is a veteran SS with proven leadership abilities...he's slumping...but he doesn't need a "wake up call".

We're headed towards having to make some tough "in season" decisions due to the make up of this team. Barring a trade...these decisions will revolve around injecting speed into the lineup SOMEHOW, barring a trade that means Owens and/or Richar taking ABs and playing time away from Uribe and Dye and to a lesser extent Konerko and Thome. The "whole is greater than the sum of the parts"...we learned in 2005 that chemistry and a blended/balanced offense can be more effective than a line up of slow footed sluggers from top to bottom. We have zero ability to "manufacture" runs on this team.

Every White Sox team that has ever won it's division has had a speed element (players w/20+ SBs: 1983: Law/Cruz, 1993: Johnson/Raines/Cora, 2000: Durham/Singleton, 2005: Podsednik). Comparing a speed guy's stats to one of our slow footed slugger guys will NEVER look like the right move when compared 1:1..but the impact it has on the overall offense and forcing the other team's defense to adjust to us a little bit is the hidden value.

Regardless of the name of the player....if we don't solve the speed/manufacturing runs issue on this team...you can insert us in the 3rd place for the Central, and start planning for 2009.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-04-2008, 12:21 PM
Well, since Greg Walker is either A) terrible as a hitting coach or B) superfluous since these are all major leaguers and changing hitting coaches won't change a thing I say we fire him, take his remaining salary in $10 bills, and let random fans stand in one of those money boxes each game and try to catch as much cash as possible in 1 minute. Sure it might not help the team, but it would make things exciting and be a much more fun promotion than the hockey puck shooting.

Or maybe take his salary and use it to give people partial refunds on their tickets.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-04-2008, 12:22 PM
Who cares about batting average - we walk a lot!!!

And there's nothing more exciting in baseball than three walks and hit batsman!

DickAllen72
05-04-2008, 12:40 PM
Quentin must bat third. It could change the dynamic of the whole lineup. If Thome and Konerko's pride gets hurt then maybe they wake up and start to hit.
Agreed 100%.

jabrch
05-04-2008, 01:07 PM
And there's nothing more exciting in baseball than three walks and hit batsman!

or more likely to happen.

You can only walk when your opponent fails to do their job. MLB pitchers don't fail often enough that you can bet on that. You need to be able to hit in order to succeed.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 01:11 PM
or more likely to happen.

You can only walk when your opponent fails to do their job. MLB pitchers don't fail often enough that you can bet on that. You need to be able to hit in order to succeed.
There's no point to a statement like this. Should they not walk? MLB pitchers fail quite a bit.

spiffie
05-04-2008, 01:50 PM
or more likely to happen.

You can only walk when your opponent fails to do their job. MLB pitchers don't fail often enough that you can bet on that. You need to be able to hit in order to succeed.
http://imgsrv.sports1140.com/image/khtk/UserFiles/Image/050217_dusty_baker_hmed_h2.jpg

Walks just clog the bases dude.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 03:58 PM
Every White Sox team that has ever won it's division has had a speed element (players w/20+ SBs: 1983: Law/Cruz, 1993: Johnson/Raines/Cora, 2000: Durham/Singleton, 2005: Podsednik).

This is great information.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 04:00 PM
This is great information.
Not really. It's quite useless actually.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 04:02 PM
Not really. It's quite useless actually.

Why? Because it doesn't support your argument?

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 04:09 PM
Why? Because it doesn't support your argument?
I don't see how that "speed element" contributes to the offense -- especially in 2005. Our offense sucked. Pitching won. The end.

spiffie
05-04-2008, 04:12 PM
Every White Sox team that has ever won it's division has had a speed element (players w/20+ SBs: 1983: Law/Cruz, 1993: Johnson/Raines/Cora, 2000: Durham/Singleton, 2005: Podsednik). Comparing a speed guy's stats to one of our slow footed slugger guys will NEVER look like the right move when compared 1:1..but the impact it has on the overall offense and forcing the other team's defense to adjust to us a little bit is the hidden value.

Regardless of the name of the player....if we don't solve the speed/manufacturing runs issue on this team...you can insert us in the 3rd place for the Central, and start planning for 2009.
Cabrera is on pace for around 25-30 steals. But they don't really help much when he's on base less than 30% of the time.

Funny how speed wasn't an issue when our guys were actually hitting and getting on base. I don't care if you have 9 guys as fast as Jerry Owens in the lineup, if they're hitting the collective 28-158 (.177) that they have the last five games, you're going to lose, whether or not Jerry Owens is up here adding his one bunt single a week and getting on base at a 330 clip.

JB98
05-04-2008, 04:17 PM
Cabrera is on pace for around 25-30 steals. But they don't really help much when he's on base less than 30% of the time.

Funny how speed wasn't an issue when our guys were actually hitting and getting on base. I don't care if you have 9 guys as fast as Jerry Owens in the lineup, if they're hitting the collective 28-158 (.177) that they have the last five games, you're going to lose, whether or not Jerry Owens is up here adding his one bunt single a week and getting on base at a 330 clip.

I tend to agree. I wish we had more speed, but that's not the biggest issue. We can't get anybody on base. If we were seeing men constantly having to be held at third on hits because they are too slow, I could see that. Unfortunately, Cox has been very lonely in the third-base coaches box lately.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 04:22 PM
I don't see how that "speed element" contributes to the offense -- especially in 2005. Our offense sucked. Pitching won. The end.

The speed factor allowed the Sox to manufacture runs when the homers were not flying.

Of course the pitching was the biggest factor in 2005. But you can't win a game 0-0. You still have to score at least one more run than your opponent. If you have speed on the team, you have more flexibility in how you can score. With speed, you don't have to wait around for the long ball.

What part of this is so hard to comprehend?

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 04:26 PM
The speed factor allowed the Sox to manufacture runs when the homers were not flying.

Of course the pitching was the biggest factor in 2005. But you can't win a game 0-0. You still have to score at least one more run than your opponent. If you have speed on the team, you have more flexibility in how you can score. With speed, you don't have to wait around for the long ball.

What part of this is so hard to comprehend?
I just think the object of an offense should be to score as many runs as possible -- not just enough to win the game.

good hitters = good offense

spiffie
05-04-2008, 04:28 PM
The speed factor allowed the Sox to manufacture runs when the homers were not flying.

Of course the pitching was the biggest factor in 2005. But you can't win a game 0-0. You still have to score at least one more run than your opponent. If you have speed on the team, you have more flexibility in how you can score. With speed, you don't have to wait around for the long ball.

What part of this is so hard to comprehend?
You can't steal first base. All things being equal I will happily take a faster player over a slower player. But we don't have anyone who makes all other things equal. Jermaine Dye putting in his usual JD performance is worth MUCH more than Jerry Owens even if JO steals 50 bases. Swisher or Quentin putting up what they can put up are worth more than Owens would do.

Daver
05-04-2008, 04:30 PM
I don't see how that "speed element" contributes to the offense -- especially in 2005. Our offense sucked. Pitching won. The end.

A base stealing threat at first base changes the mindset of the pitcher and the catcher, and changes the pitch selection to the next hitter or two, they will see more fastballs than breaking balls. The difference in the offense doesn't change drastically, but it is a noticeable amount if you are observant enough to watch for it, most people aren't.

TomBradley72
05-04-2008, 04:34 PM
I don't see how that "speed element" contributes to the offense -- especially in 2005. Our offense sucked. Pitching won. The end.

Not "the end"...we won a ton of 1 run games in 2005...especially early in the year...Pods was the catalyst for the offense and speed/manufacturing runs was a big reason we won those games. If you look at our won/lost record over the past three seasons...when we were doing our best we had a speed guy in the mix (ie. Pods), when he was injured, etc...we stalled as a team.

It happened "within" 2005 when he was injured.

TomBradley72
05-04-2008, 04:40 PM
A base stealing threat at first base changes the mindset of the pitcher and the catcher, and changes the pitch selection to the next hitter or two, they will see more fastballs than breaking balls. The difference in the offense doesn't change drastically, but it is a noticeable amount if you are observant enough to watch for it, most people aren't.

Thank you.

The stat heads just want to look at OBP/OPS, etc...but they are missing the "disruption factor" that speed and the ability to manufacture runs causes.
As an example, it causes the opposition to make a decision: position the infield based on the scouting reports for the hitter or position them based on covering a stolen base, a sacrifice bunt, hit and run, etc. Now they feel some pressure...and the pitcher is deciding between breaking stuff and the fastball, not only to get the hitter out, but he has to defend the baserunner. All of this pressure makes a difference in your offense's output.

It's not just raw speed but it's also the ability to "manufacture runs"...we don't have those capabilities...so we're very inconsistent.

DickAllen72
05-04-2008, 04:41 PM
I don't see how that "speed element" contributes to the offense -- especially in 2005. Our offense sucked. Pitching won. The end.
Well that 2005 offense used to win games that were pitched like the past few games that they lost this year.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 04:44 PM
I just think the object of an offense should be to score as many runs as possible -- not just enough to win the game.

good hitters = good offense

I agree that good hitters make a good offense and the goal is to score as many runs as possible.

So let me try to explain to you how having some speed on the basepaths can help the hitter at the plate and thus make it more likely that runs will be generated:

When there is a runner on first who is at least capable of stealing a base:

1. The opposing pitcher will throw from the stretch, making him more uncomfortable and often less mechanically sound and/or have less control and/or get less velocity (if pitchers were more comfortable throwing from the stretch, they would do it all the time!);

2. The opposing pitcher will be distracted by the runner on first, making him more likely to make a mistake;

3. The opposing pitcher likely will throw pickoff throws to the first baseman, and one of those could go wild, leading to the runner moving to second;

4. The opposing catcher will be distracted by the runner, and will be more likely to make a mistake in his pitch calling;

5. To make it more likely that he would be able to throw out the runner attempting to steal second, the catcher will be more likely to call a fastball;

6. The opposing first baseman will be drawn to the bag to keep tabs on the runner, which opens a larger gap on the right side of the infield. If the second baseman moves towards first base to compensate, there will be a bigger hole up the middle.

All six things make it more likely that the batter at the plate will be more likely to get a hit.

Now, given that the runner at first has decent speed, and given that at least six things have now happened to improve the hitter's chances of getting a hit, a simple single to right field likely gets the runner on first all the way to third base. A double scores the runner. And with the pitcher and catcher distracted, it's now also more likely that the batter gets a pitch he can drive over the fence.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 04:56 PM
I understand that it makes a difference (albeit a tiny one), I just don't think Owens replacing anyone on the 25 man will make a bit of difference.

Getz replacing Uribe and batting 9th -- now that' something I can get behind.

Owens supporters -- who does he replace?

spiffie
05-04-2008, 05:01 PM
I agree that good hitters make a good offense and the goal is to score as many runs as possible.

So let me try to explain to you how having some speed on the basepaths can help the hitter at the plate and thus make it more likely that runs will be generated:

When there is a runner on first who is at least capable of stealing a base:

1. The opposing pitcher will throw from the stretch, making him more uncomfortable and often less mechanically sound and/or have less control and/or get less velocity (if pitchers were more comfortable throwing from the stretch, they would do it all the time!);

2. The opposing pitcher will be distracted by the runner on first, making him more likely to make a mistake;

3. The opposing pitcher likely will throw pickoff throws to the first baseman, and one of those could go wild, leading to the runner moving to second;

4. The opposing catcher will be distracted by the runner, and will be more likely to make a mistake in his pitch calling;

5. To make it more likely that he would be able to throw out the runner attempting to steal second, the catcher will be more likely to call a fastball;

6. The opposing first baseman will be drawn to the bag to keep tabs on the runner, which opens a larger gap on the right side of the infield. If the second baseman moves towards first base to compensate, there will be a bigger hole up the middle.

All six things make it more likely that the batter at the plate will be more likely to get a hit.

Now, given that the runner at first has decent speed, and given that at least six things have now happened to improve the hitter's chances of getting a hit, a simple single to right field likely gets the runner on first all the way to third base. A double scores the runner. And with the pitcher and catcher distracted, it's now also more likely that the batter gets a pitch he can drive over the fence.
I know their work is pretty much hated on this site, but BP did an interesting study. They compared the performance of players with men on first base and second base open, broken down by the SB performance of the man on first, compared against their expected norm career performance. They found that with the top 20% of base stealers the OPS of the guy hitting went up 34 points. For the slowest 20% of hitters on first the OPS jumped 4 points. So the question becomes how much is a 30 point OPS gap worth for the hitters coming up behind (assuming your choice is between a very fast player or a very slow player. for a 10-15 SB a year guy the gap is only about 12-15 OPS points), if you're going to give up overall performance from a speed player?

ZombieRob
05-04-2008, 05:04 PM
I understand that it makes a difference (albeit a tiny one), I just don't think Owens replacing anyone on the 25 man will make a bit of difference.

Getz replacing Uribe and batting 9th -- now that' something I can get behind.

Owens supporters -- who does he replace?
IMO is this slump or erratic hitting continues. The eventual odd man out will be Jermaine Dye, with Swisher talking over right.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 05:05 PM
I understand that it makes a difference (albeit a tiny one), I just don't think Owens replacing anyone on the 25 man will make a bit of difference.

Getz replacing Uribe and batting 9th -- now that' something I can get behind.

Owens supporters -- who does he replace?

I'm not calling for Owens.

Elsewhere, for 2009, I've advocated trading Thome and Dye, letting Uribe and Cabrera leave, and plugging in Fields, Ramirez, Richar and Anderson. None of them are 50-steal guys, but each would be capable of stealing 10-20 bases in a season.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 05:07 PM
I'm not calling for Owens.

Elsewhere, for 2009, I've advocated trading Thome and Dye, letting Uribe and Cabrera leave, and plugging in Fields, Ramirez, Richar and Anderson. None of them are 50-steal guys, but each would be capable of stealing 10-20 bases in a season.
That team wouldn't win 70 games.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 05:08 PM
I know their work is pretty much hated on this site, but BP did an interesting study. They compared the performance of players with men on first base and second base open, broken down by the SB performance of the man on first, compared against their expected norm career performance. They found that with the top 20% of base stealers the OPS of the guy hitting went up 34 points. For the slowest 20% of hitters on first the OPS jumped 4 points. So the question becomes how much is a 30 point OPS gap worth for the hitters coming up behind (assuming your choice is between a very fast player or a very slow player. for a 10-15 SB a year guy the gap is only about 12-15 OPS points), if you're going to give up overall performance from a speed player?

It's not something that necessarily can be quantified with metrics. It's a qualitative difference, and it is based as much on the threat (perception) of the stolen base as the reality of the number of steals a given player has.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 05:10 PM
That team wouldn't win 70 games.

The 2005 offense - which had just subtracted two very dangerous (if slow) hitters (Maggs and Lee), and lost another for most the season (Thomas) won the World Series.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 05:14 PM
The 2005 offense - which had just subtracted two very dangerous (if slow) hitters (Maggs and Lee), and lost another for most the season (Thomas) won the World Series.
Well, if you had 2005 Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, Garland, Politte, Hermanson, Cotts, Jenks, Vizcaino -- then yes, that analogy would be somewhat apt.

Pitching. Pitching. Pitching won that title.

Corlose 15
05-04-2008, 05:22 PM
Adding Owens to the equation won't solve anything, sure maybe he'll get on base enough to be effective and steal plenty of bases but until Swisher, Cabrera, Konerko, Dye and Pierzynski start hitting he'll ultimately do nothing but add to the LOB numbers of the guys behind him.

You can add all the speed you want to the top of the order but unless they steal their way all the way around the bases its ultimately up to the big boppers in the lineup to do their jobs. That's not happening now and the Sox aren't scoring.

TomBradley72
05-04-2008, 05:35 PM
The 2005 offense - which had just subtracted two very dangerous (if slow) hitters (Maggs and Lee), and lost another for most the season (Thomas) won the World Series.

I think the White Sox have to consider making a pretty bold move if things don't turnaround here in the next few weeks.

Against RHs:

Owens-LF
Cabrera-SS
Quentin-RF
Konerko-1B
Thome- DH
Swisher-CF
AJ-C
Crede-3B
Richar-2BAgainst LHs:

Swisher-LF
Cabrera-SS
Quentin-RF
Konerko-1B
Dye-DH
Crede-3B
Anderson-CF
AJ-C
Uribe-2BOwens and Richar come up. Ozuna and Ramirez go to AAA. Dye sits against some RHs (gets in when PK, Swisher or Quentin need a day off). Thome sits against most LHs.

We have redundancy built in to the make up this roster...so there are no easy choices other than via trade.

Chicken Dinner
05-04-2008, 05:43 PM
23.5 million dollars for Thome and Dye to become part time DH's.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 06:49 PM
Well, if you had 2005 Buehrle, Garcia, El Duque, Contreras, Garland, Politte, Hermanson, Cotts, Jenks, Vizcaino -- then yes, that analogy would be somewhat apt.

Pitching. Pitching. Pitching won that title.

Yes, pitching was the biggest part of 2005. But you can't win a game 0-0. You have to score runs. When you have several players who can run well, there are more ways you can score runs.

Sockinchisox
05-04-2008, 06:53 PM
I would hit Quentin 3rd or 5th right now, that's for sure.

Lillian
05-04-2008, 07:54 PM
This team will eventually score runs. It's hard to believe that a line up of Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Konerko, Dye, A. J., Quentin, Crede, and whoever, won't be productive. And there are other options within the organization, unlike last year, when they had to play Erstad, Gonzales, and Terrero. Fields may still become an important part of this offense before the year is out, and Richar, and Owens may contribute as well.

I know that we had a few guys with off years last year, but it isn't likely that they will repeat those sub par numbers for this entire season. Even if Dye and Konerko don't hit any better than they did last year, this is still a decent offensive team. You can't compare it to last year, which was minus Swisher, Cabrera, Quentin and Crede.

This defense is very good, which no one seems to talk about.

The key will still be the pitching. If they continue to get the kind of pitching they've had so far, they will be in the race all year.
Every team goes through a funk like this. I'm glad that it happened now, and that they haven't fallen behind the teams that will ultimately provide the stiffest competition. Be grateful that the Sox are still in front of both Detroit, and Cleveland.

Frontman
05-04-2008, 07:57 PM
Lillian,

We said the same thing all last season; waiting for them to turn it around. Some of them did, but when it was far too late to mean anything.

The Sox are in dire straits; hoping that Jerry Owens would somehow get the rest of the lineup to "spot the dot" and finally put some hits into play.

spiffie
05-04-2008, 08:22 PM
It's not something that necessarily can be quantified with metrics. It's a qualitative difference, and it is based as much on the threat (perception) of the stolen base as the reality of the number of steals a given player has.
I would think the threat of a stolen base is pretty much based on how often a guy steals. I mean, sure, someone might be afraid of Jim Thome stealing a base, but I would suspect it is not a major concern.

And at some point, if the effect is drastic enough to merit consideration as something that really ought to impact a player personnel decision it would manifest itself. I'm sorry, maybe it makes me a propellorhead, but simply saying "this sounds like it should work this way" and making decisions accordingly doesn't strike me as a good management technique. I agree that the threat of a base stealer can have an impact, however I think, just from the few thousand games I've watched over the years and from the numbers I've seen, that the impact is not quite as dramatic as you would say it is.

sox1970
05-04-2008, 08:28 PM
I hope the one thing everyone can agree on is that Jim Thome no longer belongs in the 3-hole on a major league team. That would be a good first step to tinker with the lineup. Switch Quentin and Thome and see what happens.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 08:31 PM
Yes, pitching was the biggest part of 2005. But you can't win a game 0-0. You have to score runs. When you have several players who can run well, there are more ways you can score runs.
Yeah, obviously -- you just can't possibly make the case that the 2004 team wouldn't have been dominant with the 2005 SP/RP core.

TDog
05-04-2008, 09:11 PM
When the Tigers got off to their horrible start, people said they would come around, and when Granderson came back, the offense came around, despite the fact that Granderson has hit some solo home runs. The Tigers have other problems, though.

I am not suggesting the Sox do and certainly don't believe they would do the following (but they couldn't do any worse):

Bat Brian Anderson leadoff and play him in center. I have been accused of being a Brian Anderson hater, because around here, if you aren't a Brian Anderson lover, you are a Brian Anderson hater. I have always believed he has the ability to be a leadoff hitter if he gets the most out of his talents. He certainly is a better hitter than the speedier Jerry Owens and he is a better defender than Owens or Nick Swisher. He doesn't have Swisher's on-base percentage (Anderson: .343, Swisher: .354), but he has more speed.

Continue starting Jim Thome as the third-place hitter every day. He has done well against starting pitchers. He is hitting and slugging better against left-handed starters than he is against right-handed starters.

When Thome comes up from the seventh inning on and the opponent brings in the lefty specialist to get him out, pinch-hit Swisher.

The Sox have used this strategy only once this year, in a game where Quentin led off against the Tigers. The strategy didn't work, and it was the only game the Sox lost to the Tigers this year, but it wasn't entirely the fault of pinch-hitting Swisher for Thome. Swisher struck out, of course. He strikes out almost as much as Thome does. He actually was facing a right handed pitcher and was only hitting for Thome because Thome was ejected from the game.

Swisher took the first four pitches in that at bat. He fouled off the fifth and swung at and missed the sixth. If you send Swisher in to hit, you have to tell him to swing the bat. This season, if he waits until he has two strikes on him, he has been a bad hitter.

Just a thought. But it makes a lot more sense an a lot of what I read in this thread.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 09:11 PM
Yeah, obviously -- you just can't possibly make the case that the 2004 team wouldn't have been dominant with the 2005 SP/RP core.

The 2004 team was in or near first place through August 1. The offense did not survive the loss of Thomas and Maggs. And you're right; the pitching in 2004 failed, too.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 09:14 PM
When the Tigers got off to their horrible start, people said they would come around, and when Granderson came back, the offense came around, despite the fact that Granderson has hit some solo home runs. The Tigers have other problems, though.

I am not suggesting the Sox do and certainly don't believe they would do the following (but they couldn't do any worse):

Bat Brian Anderson leadoff and play him in center. I have been accused of being a Brian Anderson hater, because around here, if you aren't a Brian Anderson lover, you are a Brian Anderson hater. I have always believed he has the ability to be a leadoff hitter if he gets the most out of his talents. He certainly is a better hitter than the speedier Jerry Owens and he is a better defender than Owens or Nick Swisher. He doesn't have Swisher's on-base percentage (Anderson: .343, Swisher: .354), but he has more speed.

Continue starting Jim Thome as the third-place hitter every day. He has done well against starting pitchers. He is hitting and slugging better against left-handed starters than he is against right-handed starters.

When Thome comes up from the seventh inning on and the opponent brings in the lefty specialist to get him out, pinch-hit Swisher.

The Sox have used this strategy only once this year, in a game where Quentin led off against the Tigers. The strategy didn't work, and it was the only game the Sox lost to the Tigers this year, but it wasn't entirely the fault of pinch-hitting Swisher for Thome. Swisher struck out, of course. He strikes out almost as much as Thome does. He actually was facing a right handed pitcher and was only hitting for Thome because Thome was ejected from the game.

Swisher took the first four pitches in that at bat. He fouled off the fifth and swung at and missed the sixth. If you send Swisher in to hit, you have to tell him to swing the bat. This season, if he waits until he has two strikes on him, he has been a bad hitter.

Just a thought. But it makes a lot more sense an a lot of what I read in this thread.
I...just...I just...I don't know.

I'm not sure where to start. You really think Anderson's speed trumps Swisher's skills.

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2008, 09:39 PM
I...just...I just...I don't know.

I'm not sure where to start. You really think Anderson's speed trumps Swisher's skills.
I don't like the idea of starting Anderson as leadoff but right now Swish's skills appear to have vanished. He is contributing ZERO to this offense.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 09:46 PM
I don't like the idea of starting Anderson as leadoff but right now Swish's skills appear to have vanished. He is contributing ZERO to this offense.
He ripped a double today and hit one to the track. His BABIP is .247 right now! His peripherals fall in line with his career numbers:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4599_OF_season_full_9_20080503.png

He will come around. Benching him would accomplish nothing. He's Nick Swisher -- he's not some washed up veteran or unproven young player -- he's a ****ing great ballplayer.

TDog
05-04-2008, 09:54 PM
I...just...I just...I don't know.

I'm not sure where to start. You really think Anderson's speed trumps Swisher's skills.

I don't think much of Nick Swisher's skills. I didn't last year. I didn't the year before that. Never have. I believe I have made that clear. I had hoped he would change my mind this year. If he continues to play every day, he still has time to change my mind. Please, Nicolas Thomas Swisher, change my mind.

I haven't consided whether Brian Anderson's skills might trump Swisher's skills. Such a discussion might get roadhoused anyway.

As I wrote, I don't recommend that I posted to be done. But I do believe Swisher is at least as much to blame for the Sox offensive difficulties as Thome.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 09:58 PM
I don't think much of Nick Swisher's skills. I didn't last year. I didn't the year before that. Never have. I believe I have made that clear. I had hoped he would change my mind this year. If he continues to play every day, he still has time to change my mind. Please, Nicolas Thomas Swisher, change my mind.

I haven't consided whether Brian Anderson's skills might trump Swisher's skills. Such a discussion might get roadhoused anyway.

As I wrote, I don't recommend that I posted to be done. But I do believe Swisher is at least as much to blame for the Sox offensive difficulties than Thome.
Look at my above post. His BABIP sucks right now - and his peripherals say he should be doing much better based on his percentages. His average will climb, he has been one of the most unlucky players in baseball this season.

What don't you like about his skills? Is it his back to back great seasons, or is it his plus defense, or could it be his below market value contract? The guy is an absolute beast. You cannot simply look at his BA -- there's much below the surface.

Frontman
05-04-2008, 10:27 PM
He will come around. Benching him would accomplish nothing. He's Nick Swisher -- he's not some washed up veteran or unproven young player -- he's a ****ing great ballplayer.

He can cure Narcolepsy just by walking into a room.

His organ donation card also lists his beard.

He's a lover, not a fighter. But he's also a fighter so don't get any ideas.

Mexico once cancelled Cinco De Mayo, because he had a scheduling conflict (namely trying to keep the Sox from being swept in Toronto.)

He is the Most Interesting Man in the World.

He is the Swish, and he'll bring the Awesome!!!

roadrunner
05-04-2008, 10:31 PM
Bat Quentin second.

Swisher + Quentin = high OBP at the top of the order

Hit Cabrera ninth as a second leadoff type guy in front of Swisher and Quentin. Ramirez/Ozuna/(Richar) could provide additional speed at the bottom. Maybe that combination could get a small ball type of thing going at the bottom of the order once in a while.

JB98
05-04-2008, 10:47 PM
I hope the one thing everyone can agree on is that Jim Thome no longer belongs in the 3-hole on a major league team. That would be a good first step to tinker with the lineup. Switch Quentin and Thome and see what happens.

I can't say I agree with that. In fact, I don't agree with that at all.

Switch Quentin and Dye and we have a deal.

TDog
05-04-2008, 10:48 PM
Look at my above post. His BABIP sucks right now - and his peripherals say he should be doing much better based on his percentages. His average will climb, he has been one of the most unlucky players in baseball this season.

What don't you like about his skills? Is it his back to back great seasons, or is it his plus defense, or could it be his below market value contract? The guy is an absolute beast. You cannot simply look at his BA -- there's much below the surface.


Look at my post. I've been watching Nick Swisher play. I liked that he was in Oakland because I loathe the A's. He has never been good at driving in runs. He strikes out too much. He seems to focus on walking to the detriment of hitting. He seems to work hard, but he has never impressed me as a hitter.

I've actually watched a lot of baseball in my life. If I watch a player over the course of a season and I'm not impressed with his skills, no statistical analysis will change my mind. It's like Baseball Prospectus after the 2005 World Series making a statistical argument that the White Sox weren't the best team in 2005.

I don't care about contracts. I don't pay his salary. I want to see more production out of him no matter what they pay him. I want him to show me he is the beast people say he is. That would impress me. Quadratic equations have their place in the world, but I don't need them to explain baseball to me.

TDog
05-04-2008, 10:49 PM
I can't say I agree with that. In fact, I don't agree with that at all.

Switch Quentin and Dye and we have a deal.

That is a post I can agree with.

Craig Grebeck
05-04-2008, 10:53 PM
Look at my post. I've been watching Nick Swisher play. I liked that he was in Oakland because I loathe the A's. He has never been good at driving in runs. He strikes out too much. He seems to focus on walking to the detriment of hitting. He seems to work hard, but he has never impressed me as a hitter.

I've actually watched a lot of baseball in my life. If I watch a player over the course of a season and I'm not impressed with his skills, no statistical analysis will change my mind. It's like Baseball Prospectus after the 2005 World Series making a statistical argument that the White Sox weren't the best team in 2005.

I don't care about contracts. I don't pay his salary. I want to see more production out of him no matter what they pay him. I want him to show me he is the beast people say he is. That would impress me. Quadratic equations have their place in the world, but I don't need them to explain baseball to me.
Using the overdone stereotype that statistics = quadratic equations is nonsense.

Just looking at his "clutch stats" last season -- he seemed to do okay.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=swishni01&year=2007

TDog
05-04-2008, 11:15 PM
Using the overdone stereotype that statistics = quadratic equations is nonsense.

Just looking at his "clutch stats" last season -- he seemed to do okay.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=swishni01&year=2007 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=swishni01&year=2007)


What I see there is that Swisher hit below .200 after getting two strikes on him last year too. One has to wonder why he so often doesn't swing the bat until he gets two called strikes on him. Of course, I didn't need a statistical analysis to tell me he is a bad two-strike hitter. I've watched him play.

By any measure, as bad as Jim Thome has been this year, Nick Swisher has been worse. I was disappointed to read during the offseason that Swisher was coming to the Sox, but I was over that by opening day.

I apologize if the quadratic equation reference is overused. I have never heard it used before. I thought I just made it up. Sometimes stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

Ziggy S
05-04-2008, 11:22 PM
Sorry, but I hate this lineup.

Richar first of all needs to get healthy. Then, he needs to be consistent enough to actually get that #2 spot.




Richar should be the starting 2B after he gets healthy. You don't lose any fielding and I know he can't be a worse "hitter" than Uribe.

TheVulture
05-04-2008, 11:58 PM
He is contributing ZERO to this offense.
Reaching base 1.5 times per game isn't contributing to the offense?

jabrch
05-05-2008, 12:02 AM
The key thing a hitter needs to do to be impactful to a lineup is hit. Swish so far has been bad at that this season.

So has everyone else hitting in the top of the order - but those are the guys we have...we need them to all step up and hit better, Swish included.

WhiteSox5187
05-05-2008, 12:24 AM
Reaching base 1.5 times per game isn't contributing to the offense?
Oh if only he had been doing that the past two weeks. Right now he is mired in a terrible slump and his average and OBP are in free fall. And don't get me wrong, Swish isn't alone here. Nobody is contributing with the exception of possibly Quentin.

voodoochile
05-05-2008, 12:35 AM
The key thing a hitter needs to do to be impactful to a lineup is hit. Swish so far has been bad at that this season.

So has everyone else hitting in the top of the order - but those are the guys we have...we need them to all step up and hit better, Swish included.

And nothing in their past performance suggests they won't hit better as the season progresses. If they don't, we're ****ed. If they do, should be a fun summer.

Just wish people would put down the "reminds me of 2007" stuff. This is not the same team as last year. Even if the offensive results come out the same, it will be for different reasons.

Still, like it or not, there's isn't some magic pill nor some minor league stud who is going to fix the problem. This team is going to sink or swim predominantly with the players you currently see day in and day out, so strap it down, cinch it up and hunker it on and smile... it's baseball. It's supposed to be fun...

soxfan44
05-05-2008, 12:40 AM
He ripped a double today and hit one to the track. His BABIP is .247 right now! His peripherals fall in line with his career numbers:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/4599_OF_season_full_9_20080503.png

He will come around. Benching him would accomplish nothing. He's Nick Swisher -- he's not some washed up veteran or unproven young player -- he's a ****ing great ballplayer.

Graph whatever you'd like... a lifetime .249 hitter who strikes out as much as he does is not a ****ing great player, he's a ****ing average player! You probably look past this though because you think he's funny in the Javy "silent assassin" commercial. Those commercials are retarded.

Craig Grebeck
05-05-2008, 08:27 AM
Graph whatever you'd like... a lifetime .249 hitter who strikes out as much as he does is not a ****ing great player, he's a ****ing average player! You probably look past this though because you think he's funny in the Javy "silent assassin" commercial. Those commercials are retarded.
Classy usage in the last sentence.

And you can hit .249 and still be a pretty damn good ballplayer.

Craig Grebeck
05-05-2008, 08:43 AM
Swisher is hitting, and his peripherals point towards him being extremely unlucky. His BABIP is low -- showing that most of the balls he hits are being caught; but his LD% is higher than normal, and the others (GB/FB) are in line with his career. He is hitting the ball.

SoxFan78
05-05-2008, 09:01 AM
I chose other.

I say fire Greg Walker. Yes, I know that its the players fault, blah blah blah. But he is a hitting coach for a reason. And when you have the worst hitting team in the AL since post all star break 2006, changes have to be made. You cant fire the whole offense.

soxrme
05-05-2008, 10:16 AM
I would bench Dye, Swisher just not a good centerfielder, belongs in right or left. Put Owens or BA in center.

russ99
05-05-2008, 11:28 AM
I'd bring up Owens and send Anderson or Ramirez down. Tough call, since we don't need 5 OFs, Ramirez plays 3 positions and Anderson's looked decent at the plate of late.

Then, I'd give Jerry 3-4 starts a week in CF, moving Swisher to 1B (and down the order where there's less pressure), and giving either Paulie or Thome a day off until they start hitting the way they should and can.

Procol Harum
05-05-2008, 12:05 PM
Get in the Way-Back Machine and kidnap Rogers Hornsby shortly before the beginning of the 1924 season.... :help:

voodoochile
05-05-2008, 12:26 PM
Get in the Way-Back Machine and kidnap Rogers Hornsby shortly before the beginning of the 1924 season.... :help:

Can you bring back 1994 Frank Thomas while you are at it?

Procol Harum
05-05-2008, 01:44 PM
Can you bring back 1994 Frank Thomas while you are at it?

Hmmmm, I think we're on to something--I think the 2008 Sox could make some waves in the AL with a lineup that looked like this:

Swisher--CF
Cabrera--SS
1924 Hornsby--2B
1994 Thomas--1B
Thome--DH
Dye--RF
Pierzynski--C
Crede--3B
Quinton--LF

:D:

Heffalump
05-05-2008, 02:16 PM
Swisher is hitting, and his peripherals point towards him being extremely unlucky. His BABIP is low -- showing that most of the balls he hits are being caught; but his LD% is higher than normal, and the others (GB/FB) are in line with his career. He is hitting the ball.

I like Swisher. However, you are now blaming Swisher's poor performance on "being unlucky"? Wow, you can reference as many obscure statistics as you want, but any creditibility you had as a knowledgeable baseball fan just went out the window.

Like I said, I like Swish a lot, but time and time again, he has failed at the plate over the last few weeks. Can he turn it around? Sure, and I hope he does, but his "BABIP" means **** and that is what he is hitting like right now......As is the rest of the team.

Does it look like 2007 again from a hitting standpoint? Yes. Is it too early to spaz out about it? YES YES YES.

SowtSydePryde67
05-05-2008, 02:17 PM
1. Have Greg Walker "issue" a boot to the a$$ of anyone who strikes out:o:

2. Just like in the movie "Major League", have them do push-ups everytime they pop one up.:bandance:

3. Every time an Ump blows a call, let the highest average hitter beat the ump around like a pinata.:angry:

4. WWE Raw cage match for Oz and Lou "Last man swearing match":dtroll:

spiffie
05-05-2008, 02:22 PM
I like Swisher. However, you are now blaming Swisher's poor performance on "being unlucky"? Wow, you can reference as many obscure statistics as you want, but any creditibility you had as a knowledgeable baseball fan just went out the window.

Like I said, I like Swish a lot, but time and time again, he has failed at the plate over the last few weeks. Can he turn it around? Sure, and I hope he does, but his "BABIP" means **** and that is what he is hitting like right now......As is the rest of the team.

Does it look like 2007 again from a hitting standpoint? Yes. Is it too early to spaz out about it? YES YES YES.
Here, I'll put it in a way that might make it more palatable.

:hawk
Swish sure has had a dadgum lot of hang wif'ems lately. Mercy! He keeps scalding the ball but right at guys. I remember once when Carl Yaztremski had a stretch like that. Good hitters sometimes just get unlucky like that.

Craig Grebeck
05-05-2008, 02:28 PM
I like Swisher. However, you are now blaming Swisher's poor performance on "being unlucky"? Wow, you can reference as many obscure statistics as you want, but any creditibility you had as a knowledgeable baseball fan just went out the window.

Like I said, I like Swish a lot, but time and time again, he has failed at the plate over the last few weeks. Can he turn it around? Sure, and I hope he does, but his "BABIP" means **** and that is what he is hitting like right now......As is the rest of the team.

Does it look like 2007 again from a hitting standpoint? Yes. Is it too early to spaz out about it? YES YES YES.
No, BABIP is not an obscure statistic -- and it definitely shows how unlucky he has been. BABIP is the batting average a hitter has when the ball is put in play -- a "normal" BABIP is in the neighborhood of .300. Hitters tend to have more consistent BABIP numbers on a seasonal basis. The last two seasons, Swisher's has been .287/.308. This season, it is .253. This huge drop could be explained by a change in LD/FB/GB rates -- but as I previously posited, they are consistent with his career norms. What does this say? It says he has been unlucky.

RCWHITESOX
05-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Make a trade for Brian Roberts. Put him in the leadoff spot and all our problems are solved. Also please include Uribe in the deal. Lineup Roberts, Swisher, Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Quentin, Crede, and Cabrera.

champagne030
05-05-2008, 03:16 PM
No, BABIP is not an obscure statistic -- and it definitely shows how unlucky he has been. BABIP is the batting average a hitter has when the ball is put in play -- a "normal" BABIP is in the neighborhood of .300. Hitters tend to have more consistent BABIP numbers on a seasonal basis. The last two seasons, Swisher's has been .287/.308. This season, it is .253. This huge drop could be explained by a change in LD/FB/GB rates -- but as I previously posited, they are consistent with his career norms. What does this say? It says he has been unlucky.

It also shows that Floyd is about to implode because he has the unsustainable BABIP of .170. His FB% is way up from last season. We better start hitting soon because I fear the luck Floyd has enjoyed so far this season will not last.

Gavin
05-05-2008, 04:11 PM
http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/LineupAnalysis.py?Player0=CQ&OBA0=+0.421&Slug0=+0.609&Player1=AJP&OBA1=+0.321&Slug1=+0.434&Player2=Cabrera&OBA2=+0.298&Slug2=+0.271&Player3=JD&OBA3=+0.308&Slug3=+0.448&Player4=PK&OBA4=+0.362&Slug4=+0.436&Player5=Swish&OBA5=+0.354&Slug5=+0.324&Player6=Uribe&OBA6=+0.212&Slug6=+0.300&Player7=Thome&OBA7=+0.347&Slug7=+0.447&Player8=Crede&OBA8=+0.313&Slug8=+0.505&Model=0

Food for thought...

(No I do not think PK should be hitting leadoff)

spiffie
05-05-2008, 04:20 PM
Make a trade for Brian Roberts. Put him in the leadoff spot and all our problems are solved. Also please include Uribe in the deal. Lineup Roberts, Swisher, Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Quentin, Crede, and Cabrera.
Will we have to change the settings on the Playstation to get the Orioles to agree to any deal where they get Uribe and give up Roberts?

voodoochile
05-05-2008, 04:21 PM
Make a trade for Brian Roberts. Put him in the leadoff spot and all our problems are solved. Also please include Uribe in the deal. Lineup Roberts, Swisher, Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Quentin, Crede, and Cabrera.

:gah:

Die stupid trade rumor DIE!!

I repeat...

:gah:

PudgeFisk72
05-05-2008, 04:27 PM
Bottom line is that the Sox need some speed and on-base guys at the top of the order. We have too many one-dimensional offensive players in the order. IMHO, KW may have to consider trading some of the middle of the order to get some speed and somebody with some bunting ability. Can some of the prospects fill the bill? Maybe, but this fan would like to see established players in the 1 and 2 spots.

BUMMER
05-05-2008, 05:40 PM
Who does Owens replace? Certainly not JD or Swish...and right now Quentin was co-MVP of April along with Crede. The only way Owens is an everyday starter is if Konerko gets traded and Swish gets moved to everyday 1B.

G-I-G: Not the ONLY way. It will be difficult to move Paulie as (I believe) his no-trade clause just kicked in. He'd have to approve (probably only to LAD or Dbacks).
And Sox comitted $ to JD, who didn't even bring offers last year and can at least play the field. To open a spot for Owens, I think Thome is the guy who's gotta go (to NYY to replace Giambi?). With Thome gone, Dye can DH with Swish & CQ in corner outfield spots and BA / Owens platoon in CF ...or Swish at 1B when PK DH's.
Result: more speed, less K's, less plodding, more defensive options, less salary, ...etc, etc