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SOXfnNlansing
05-02-2008, 07:43 PM
When I go to games at the park, I head to the bathroom after Crede bats so I don't have to watch uribe strike out. It's difficult when it's on tv, but those two strike out all the time. Anyone else tired of it? or is it we're in a funk and our warts are more noticeable?

Craig Grebeck
05-02-2008, 07:47 PM
Not any worse than Crede popping it up to the infield.

oeo
05-02-2008, 07:48 PM
Not any worse than Crede popping it up to the infield.

Not to mention, it's often on the first or second pitch.

Max Power
05-02-2008, 07:54 PM
What an appropriate time for me to read this post. Uribe up with the bases loaded, and... (0-2)(ooh, he didn't swing at the 55 footer) flies out. That was less frustrating than a strikeout though.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 08:33 PM
Thome's no better. Clutch hitter? Hell, no. He ran into a cookie for his 500th to mark one of the few times in his career with the Sox that he's done **** in a big situation.

Why? Well, because he has to pull everything. Why pull, Jim? Is it because you need 600 homers to get to Cooperstown? If Thome was such a good hitter, why couldn't he go oppo against the shift? He used to be an all fields hitter with Cleveland. Since he started bombing 50 in Philly, he's been extremely one dimensional. When he gets on base, he's a liability.

Wouldn't it be ****ing nice to have some athleticism on offense again?

Craig Grebeck
05-02-2008, 08:34 PM
Thome's no better. Clutch hitter? Hell, no. He ran into a cookie for his 500th to mark one of the few times in his career with the Sox that he's done **** in a big situation.

Why? Well, because he has to pull everything. Why pull, Jim? Is it because you need 600 homers to get to Cooperstown? If Thome was such a good hitter, why couldn't he go oppo against the shift? He used to be an all fields hitter with Cleveland. Since he started bombing 50 in Philly, he's been extremely one dimensional. When he gets on base, he's a liability.

Wouldn't it be ****ing nice to have some athleticism on offense again?
Ridiculous.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 08:36 PM
I'm worried sick....
Is our OPS or whatever it's called still No.1 in the American League?????
That's all that matters here.
Forget the wins.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Thome's no better. Clutch hitter? Hell, no. He ran into a cookie for his 500th to mark one of the few times in his career with the Sox that he's done **** in a big situation.

Why? Well, because he has to pull everything. Why pull, Jim? Is it because you need 600 homers to get to Cooperstown? If Thome was such a good hitter, why couldn't he go oppo against the shift? He used to be an all fields hitter with Cleveland. Since he started bombing 50 in Philly, he's been extremely one dimensional. When he gets on base, he's a liability.

Wouldn't it be ****ing nice to have some athleticism on offense again?I think you need to look at Thome's numbers last year, and I don't mean the geekster numbers that guys like Grebeck and some of the others that never played are looking at...
Thome drove in 92 runs in like 432 at bats or something which is outstanding. Had he not been hurt, he'd have been around 110-115.
There's nothing wrong with Thome's hitting in the clutch...
Now, with Konerko, you have an argument.

WhiteSox5187
05-02-2008, 08:41 PM
Forget Uribe and Thome, I'm sick of this whole ****ing offense right now.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 08:52 PM
On WSI, we gnashed our teeth for years at the utter ineptitude of the offense when it counted. We wondered why the team could pound out 14 runs one night to be shut down the next. We tired of having players like Jose Valentin go 0fer night after night, swinging an missing on offspeed pitches.

Things changed for one season. We had a DH that would change his stance on an 0-2 count to maximize contact. He would lace pitches to the gaps, scoring baserunners. Rallies were the norm because the team would get players on base, get in scoring position, and hit AS A TEAM.

When '06 came rolling around, we were all pumped because the Sox added a big bopper in the lineup. He was going to add a whole bunch of production to the offense.

Well, for one half of a season, that was the case. Thome can drive in runs via the homer. He can get on base via the walk (when runners aren't on the bags already). He CANNOT cut his swing down. This is evidenced by the fact that teams immediately go into a shift. He is a dead pull hitter...an all or nothing sort that provides an offense with NO options other than station to station baseball. We already have that guy in Konerko. We DID NOT need another one.

For the first two weeks of this season, we saw the offense taking pitches and putting together productive innings. In the back of my mind, I wondered how long it would last. Though there were guys on base, it was still station to station baseball.

Great offenses have versatility. They have enough guys that feel just as comfortable taking a pitch up the middle or the other way than trying to knock it out of the park. Look at Joe Mauer. The guy doesn't hit that many homers, but he'll get a million more clutch hits than guys like Thome will because there's just no gameplan to beat him.

This Sox offense is waiting for a pitch middle in ALL THE TIME. That's all they want - something to pull. How do you beat them? Throw curveballs in the dirt, changeups with a little tailing action, and the fastball up and away.
Since 2006, that's the recipe for Sox doom.

Pitchers like Verlander do not want to face the Sox because they rely on a fastball. Mediocre pitchers like we've seen the past three days can beat the Sox because it's fundamentally easy to do. Offspeed all day. They will not wait you out.

A hitting approach is contagious. If you press, you want to knock everything out of the park, and that means you're going to get MORE AND MORE offspeed pitches. This is doomed for failure with its current construction. Put Swisher at first, DH Konerko, play Owens or Anderson, and ship Thome's fat contract and one trick pony antics out of here. He's a great guy. Nobody's questioning that. Is he what's best for this team??? Hell no. I'm sorry, but I believe without a shadow of a doubt that the addition of Jim Thome has really hurt the overall makeup of the Chicago White Sox offense. This offense has sucked since August of '06. You can put it on the pitching as much as you want, but I emplore you to look at the offense that year as well. Overall, the numbers look good, but check the numbers once the pressure mounted. It's ugly. It hasn't been good since.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 08:53 PM
Jurr's blind hate of all things Thome continues...

JB98
05-02-2008, 08:57 PM
Jurr's blind hate of all things Thome continues...

Seriously, how many "Blame Thome" threads do we need? This is getting similar to the epidemic of Brian Anderson threads we had awhile ago.

It's like no one has noticed that Dye can't touch the ball right now, and Crede and Swisher are both in funks. Cabrera is showing signs of breaking out, but he was 3-for-30 before the two-hit performance tonight.

The whole team sucks right now. That is all.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 08:58 PM
Jurr's blind hate of all things Thome continues...
I love the guy. It's not blind hate. It's the fact that he's a part of the offense that just doesn't fit. You, me, and everyone else that was on this board consistently gnashed our teeth when the offense did this prior to '05.

The Sox championship video bragged about how they changed the offense's makeup to get rid of the all or nothing approach.

Why in the hell would you want to bring it back a year later? Bringing Thome aboard guaranteed it would happen. There's just no way around it.

WhiteSox5187
05-02-2008, 08:59 PM
I really think that the biggest problem the Sox have (and still are having) is that the 1-2 guys can't get on ahead of Jim Thome. It's awfully hard to drive in runs by anything other than the HR when you're the only one you can drive in. The Sox offensive down falls started when Pods stopped getting on in '06, and now Swish isn't getting on. That's the real problem.

I think another problem here is that this offense has been built around the homerun for every year EXCEPT '05. Kenny (and maybe Sox management style in general) is in love with homerun hitters. We need to get guys who can execute the fundamentals. The reason the '05 team was good wasn't because they had the timely hits, you get the timely hits because you execute! And this team hasn't executed at all since '05.

JB98
05-02-2008, 08:59 PM
I love the guy. It's not blind hate. It's the fact that he's a part of the offense that just doesn't fit. You, me, and everyone else that was on this board consistently gnashed our teeth when the offense did this prior to '05.

The Sox championship video bragged about how they changed the offense's makeup to get rid of the all or nothing approach.

Why in the hell would you want to bring it back a year later? Bringing Thome aboard guaranteed it would happen. There's just no way around it.

So, Thome is responsible for the all-or-nothing approach exhibited by the other hitters in the lineup?

Jurr
05-02-2008, 08:59 PM
Seriously, how many "Blame Thome" threads do we need? This is getting similar to the epidemic of Brian Anderson threads we had awhile ago.

It's like no one has noticed that Dye can't touch the ball right now, and Crede and Swisher are both in funks. Cabrera is showing signs of breaking out, but he was 3-for-30 before the two-hit performance tonight.

The whole team sucks right now. That is all.
Why has this hitting approach consistently relapsed into the same exact issue year after year? Why do pitchers AFTER TWO WEEKS immediately go back to the "outer half offspeed" philosophy and kill the Sox, when they can't do it to any other team consistently?

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Since he's been with the Sox, Thome seems to be a guy who is not really as good as the numbers he puts up suggest he is.

It's not that he's a bad hitter, but he's not someone you want to build an offense around, even though he does put up very impressive numbers.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Why in the hell would you want to bring it back a year later? Bringing Thome aboard guaranteed it would happen. There's just no way around it.

Now you're just making stuff up.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:00 PM
So, Thome is responsible for the all-or-nothing approach exhibited by the other hitters in the lineup?
I think it's very contagious. Yes.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Since he's been with the Sox, Thome seems to be a guy who is not really as good as the numbers he puts up suggest he is.

It's not that he's a bad hitter, but he's not someone you want to build an offense around, even though he does put up very impressive numbers.

The Sox offense is not built around Thome.

Seriously, where is all this coming from?

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Now you're just making stuff up.
There's no way to instill offensive versatility when there's only one field of the ballpark that a hitter's consistently going to go towards.

Wouldn't it be nice if the guy would cut his swing down and start hitting balls to the opposite field, thereby negating that damn shift? Why can't he? Wel,l it's because of his all or nothing pull happy approach.

champagne030
05-02-2008, 09:04 PM
Not any worse than Crede popping it up to the infield.

Or watching Fields whiff.........

JB98
05-02-2008, 09:07 PM
I think it's very contagious. Yes.

Speculation on your part. If that's the case, then maybe the hitting coach might want to say something.

The only thing I blame Thome for is the fact that he didn't come through for us tonight. That's all.

It's not his fault that Jermaine Dye couldn't hit the ball with an oar right now.

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 09:08 PM
Things changed for one season. We had a DH that would change his stance on an 0-2 count to maximize contact. He would lace pitches to the gaps, scoring baserunners. Rallies were the norm because the team would get players on base, get in scoring position, and hit AS A TEAM.

When '06 came rolling around, we were all pumped because the Sox added a big bopper in the lineup. He was going to add a whole bunch of production to the offense.

Well, for one half of a season, that was the case. Thome can drive in runs via the homer. He can get on base via the walk (when runners aren't on the bags already). He CANNOT cut his swing down. This is evidenced by the fact that teams immediately go into a shift. He is a dead pull hitter...an all or nothing sort that provides an offense with NO options other than station to station baseball. We already have that guy in Konerko. We DID NOT need another one.
Great post.

I know I'm in the vast minority on this and will get flamed for what I'm about to type, but I always had a much better feeling when Carl came up to the plate when the game was on the line than I do when Thome comes up in a similar situation.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:09 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if the guy would cut his swing down and start hitting balls to the opposite field, thereby negating that damn shift? Why can't he? Wel,l it's because of his all or nothing pull happy approach.

And this approach has resulted in a career 162 game average of 41 HRs, 113 RBIs, 108 Rs, .408 OBP and .564 SLG.

Tell me why he needs to change his approach again?

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:10 PM
The Sox offense is not built around Thome.

Seriously, where is all this coming from?
Let me give you an example. Maybe this will help.
Let's say Swisher gets on to lead the game off. Do you sac bunt Cabrera to get Swisher to second in hopes of getting an early lead? Why would you do that when you have Thome coming up? He can hit it out of the park and get you a three run lead. He can't hit a single unless the ball miraculously gets by the shift, and other than that he's going to K or pop out. Therefore you play station to station baseball.

Typically, that ends up in the three run lead or NOTHING. Once that station to station mindset gets instilled, it carries over throughout the lineup. When the pitcher is really struggling, the offense puts up 10 runs. When the game is 3-2 or a real pitcher's duel, you're going to have NOTHING.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:13 PM
And this approach has resulted in a career 162 game average of 41 HRs, 113 RBIs, 108 Rs, .408 OBP and .564 SLG.

Tell me why he needs to change his approach again?
How many rings has that approach gotten him? Hell, Jose Valentin's numbers looked great for a SS. Carlos Lee is a numbers machine. They were canned because of their lack of a team hitting approach, and we celebrated a WS the next year.

JB98
05-02-2008, 09:15 PM
How many rings has that approach gotten him? Hell, Jose Valentin's numbers looked great for a SS. Carlos Lee is a numbers machine. They were canned because of their lack of a team hitting approach, and we celebrated a WS the next year.

Jose Mesa is the main reason Thome doesn't have a ring.

Having rings is a horrible way to judge a player. Raul Casanova got a ring from the 2005 White Sox.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:15 PM
How many rings has that approach gotten him? Hell, Jose Valentin's numbers looked great for a SS. Carlos Lee is a numbers machine. They were canned because of their lack of a team hitting approach, and we celebrated a WS the next year.

ARod doesn't have any rings either. He sucks just as much as Thome. In fact, I hate every player without a WS ring.

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 09:17 PM
I love the guy. It's not blind hate. It's the fact that he's a part of the offense that just doesn't fit. You, me, and everyone else that was on this board consistently gnashed our teeth when the offense did this prior to '05.

The Sox championship video bragged about how they changed the offense's makeup to get rid of the all or nothing approach.

Why in the hell would you want to bring it back a year later? Bringing Thome aboard guaranteed it would happen. There's just no way around it.
When the Sox got Thome they said it was to give Konerko protection in the lineup. But instead of Thome batting fifth behind Paulie with World Series MVP Dye batting third, Ozzie decided to feature Thome as the centerpiece of the offense batting him third. Suddenly they didn't want to move Pods from first to second with a steal or a sacrifice because "we don't want to take the bat out of big Jim's hands."

I like Thome too and he's known as one of the best of the "good guys" in sports. But I agree that building the offense around him was a mistake.

As the roster stands now I would try putting Quentin third and drop Thome down to fifth in the order to see what happens.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Let me give you an example. Maybe this will help.
Let's say Swisher gets on to lead the game off. Do you sac bunt Cabrera to get Swisher to second in hopes of getting an early lead? Why would you do that when you have Thome coming up? He can hit it out of the park and get you a three run lead. He can't hit a single unless the ball miraculously gets by the shift, and other than that he's going to K or pop out. Therefore you play station to station baseball.

Typically, that ends up in the three run lead or NOTHING. Once that station to station mindset gets instilled, it carries over throughout the lineup. When the pitcher is really struggling, the offense puts up 10 runs. When the game is 3-2 or a real pitcher's duel, you're going to have NOTHING.

Or Thome could get a walk and give more RBI opportunities to Konerko. You make it sound as if it is a home run or an out, which it is most certainly not.

Thome's style sets his place in the order but to say the entire offense is built around Thome is nonsense.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:20 PM
ARod doesn't have any rings either. He sucks just as much as Thome. In fact, I hate every player without a WS ring.
A-Rod can hit to all fields. He can hit a run scoring single through the infield with a lot more consistency than Thome can. He can also steal a base and go first to third if needed. Thome can't.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:21 PM
When the Sox got Thome they said it was to give Konerko protection in the lineup. But instead of Thome batting fifth behind Paulie with World Series MVP Dye batting third, Ozzie decided to feature Thome as the centerpiece of the offense batting him third. Suddenly they didn't want to move Pods from first to second with a steal or a sacrifice because "we don't want to take the bat out of big Jim's hands."

I like Thome too and he's known as one of the best of the "good guys" in sports. But I agree that building the offense around him was a mistake.

As the roster stands now I would try putting Quentin third and drop Thome down to fifth in the order to see what happens.

Thome bats third because of his OBP, not to "showcase" him.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:22 PM
A-Rod can hit to all fields. He can hit a run scoring single through the infield with a lot more consistency than Thome can. He can also steal a base and go first to third if needed. Thome can't.

no ringz, he sux

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:24 PM
Or Thome could get a walk and give more RBI opportunities to Konerko. You make it sound as if it is a home run or an out, which it is most certainly not.

Thome's style sets his place in the order but to say the entire offense is built around Thome is nonsense.
You didn't answer the question about the fundamental nature of having him at the three hole. His presence there actually limits what the Sox offense does.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:30 PM
You didn't answer the question about the fundamental nature of having him at the three hole. His presence there actually limits what the Sox offense does.

I most certainly did answer the question as to why he is number 3.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2008, 09:30 PM
I don't think Thome is the be-all, end-all for the Sox troubles but Jurr does point out in my opinion, many solid points about this offense the past few years.

I wouldn't completely dismiss it offhand.

Lip

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:35 PM
I don't think Thome is the be-all, end-all for the Sox troubles but Jurr does point out in my opinion, many solid points about this offense the past few years.

I wouldn't completely dismiss it offhand.

Lip

That is a statement I do agree with. The station-to-station, homer-happy offense has been a Sox staple for years. Getting rid of Thome will not change this.

Railsplitter
05-02-2008, 09:40 PM
Yes

Frontman
05-02-2008, 09:44 PM
Forget Uribe and Thome, I'm sick of this whole ****ing offense right now.

You and me both.

The first pitch swinging, the looked at 3rd strikes. Uribe "home run or nothing" BS. The lack of moving a freakin' runner across the plate.

Walker needs to get working on this team, or get the hell out of the dugout and get someone in there who can work with these guys.

This team has talent, they've shown it.

Can they finally show it with some freakin' consistency?!?!?!?

Lip Man 1
05-02-2008, 09:53 PM
Front:

I don't know if they can or will but I pose this question. At what point (especially for the guys from last year) does this start as Swisher said "to get in their heads" and they start pressing?

Has it already begun?

Hawk once said that when a manager becomes paranoid it filters right down the dugout. Can you say the same thing about hitting from a pressure standpoint?

Lip

LoveYourSuit
05-02-2008, 09:54 PM
What an appropriate time for me to read this post. Uribe up with the bases loaded, and... (0-2)(ooh, he didn't swing at the 55 footer) flies out. That was less frustrating than a strikeout though.

That AB was a moral victory for the Sox.

sox1970
05-02-2008, 09:59 PM
Think I may start the, "Bring up Chris Getz" movement.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 10:02 PM
Since he's been with the Sox, Thome seems to be a guy who is not really as good as the numbers he puts up suggest he is.

It's not that he's a bad hitter, but he's not someone you want to build an offense around, even though he does put up very impressive numbers.Let's see, in two seasons with the Sox, Thome has hit 77 homers and driven in 205 RBI despite some injuries that have kept him out of the lineup...
He and JOSH FIELDS were about the only two hitting last year when Konerko and Dye were two of the most important ingredients in the most disappointing season in many years.
And you blame THOME?????

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 10:06 PM
Great post.

I know I'm in the vast minority on this and will get flamed for what I'm about to type, but I always had a much better feeling when Carl came up to the plate when the game was on the line than I do when Thome comes up in a similar situation.Just so ya know, I can't believe you wrote that, but I'm gonna put a mental "do not disturb" tag on ya.

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 10:22 PM
Let's see, in two seasons with the Sox, Thome has hit 77 homers and driven in 205 RBI despite some injuries that have kept him out of the lineup...
He and JOSH FIELDS were about the only two hitting last year when Konerko and Dye were two of the most important ingredients in the most disappointing season in many years.
And you blame THOME?????
I don't blame any single player. As I wrote, Thome has been a good hitter. Thome has put up very impressive numbers. However, he seems to produce mostly early in the game when there's not much pressure on. This season so far he is 3 for 24 from the seventh inning on. He seems to be the opposite of a Joe Crede when it comes to key situations late in games.

He also has had trouble over the past couple of seasons hitting lefties.

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 10:24 PM
Just so ya know, I can't believe you wrote that, but I'm gonna put a mental "do not disturb" tag on ya.
Please do. I'd appreciate it.

A. Cavatica
05-02-2008, 11:25 PM
Great post.

I know I'm in the vast minority on this and will get flamed for what I'm about to type, but I always had a much better feeling when Carl came up to the plate when the game was on the line than I do when Thome comes up in a similar situation.

Wow.

Carl stunk.

Jim is ten times the threat in any at bat than Carl ever was.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 11:28 PM
I don't blame any single player. As I wrote, Thome has been a good hitter. Thome has put up very impressive numbers. However, he seems to produce mostly early in the game when there's not much pressure on. This season so far he is 3 for 24 from the seventh inning on. He seems to be the opposite of a Joe Crede when it comes to key situations late in games.

He also has had trouble over the past couple of seasons hitting lefties.

Crede is batting 9-32 in innings 7+. Better than Thome but not particularly impressive. But on the flip side, Crede is hitting only .160 (4-25) with 1 RBI in innings 1-3. Compare that to Thome hitting .343 (12-35) with 14 RBI in innings 1-3. Perhaps Thome's ability to spot runs early results in Sox pitchers being more relaxed?

Look, I'm not saying that Thome is the savior of the team and without him the Sox would be screwed but he isn't the determent to the team that some are making him out to be.

TDog
05-02-2008, 11:31 PM
I don't blame any single player. As I wrote, Thome has been a good hitter. Thome has put up very impressive numbers. However, he seems to produce mostly early in the game when there's not much pressure on. This season so far he is 3 for 24 from the seventh inning on. He seems to be the opposite of a Joe Crede when it comes to key situations late in games.

He also has had trouble over the past couple of seasons hitting lefties.


I don't blame any single player. I don't blame the hitting coach or the manager. If Guillen took the advice of people at WSI and sat Thome against lefties, he would be hitting below .200 and have only half the home runs.

Thome does attract specialists from the bullpen after the seventh inning, though. And they are tougher on him than southpaw starters tend to be. The Sox don't lift him for a pinch-hitter, and even if they did, it often wouldn't be smart because the pitcher is often only in there to face one batter and can't be used again.

If Thome, as has been suggested here, is a bad fit for the White Sox, a worse fit is Nick Swisher, who strikes out nearly as much, doesn't walk much more, hits for less power and is far less successful in driving in runners in scoring position. I didn't think much of Nick Swisher when he played for the A's, but now that he is a member of the White Sox, I want badly for him to produce.

I single out Swisher here only to point out that this is not a Thome problem. Compare Swisher's numbers to Thome's numbers. Throw in Orlando Cabrera. If Swisher and Cabrera were doing their job, I would expect this team would get by fine with Thome as the DH.

Brian26
05-03-2008, 12:02 AM
Wow.

Carl stunk.

Everett had some HUGE hits for the Sox in 2005. I won't argue that Thome's the better player, but Everett didn't stink. He came up huge when it counted and was super clutch in the first half with runners in scoring position.

Jim is ten times the threat in any at bat than Carl ever was.

As far as any at bat...right now, Thome has no chance whatsoever against most lefthanders. He looks completely overmatched, like he's guessing at the plate.

Nellie_Fox
05-03-2008, 12:07 AM
Just so ya know, I can't believe you wrote that, but I'm gonna put a mental "do not disturb" tag on ya.Knock off the personal crap. Argue with what the other poster said, but don't ridicule them personally. You're making a habit of it.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 12:09 AM
As far as any at bat...right now, Thome has no chance whatsoever against most lefthanders. He looks completely overmatched, like he's guessing at the plate.

Coming into tonight, he was batting .300 against lefties. Compare that to .194 against righties. He has more RBIs against lefties in less than half as many plate appearances.

:shrug:

Brian26
05-03-2008, 12:12 AM
Coming into tonight, he was batting .300 against lefties. Compare that to .194 against righties. He has more RBIs against lefties in less than half as many plate appearances.

:shrug:

Unbelievable if true. I admit I haven't watched every pitch of every game, but it seems like he's getting owned by lefties every game lately.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Unbelievable if true. I admit I haven't watched every pitch of every game, but it seems like he's getting owned by lefties every game lately.

Actually, it would be believable if true and unbelievable if false.:redneck

I think the Problem is Thome is just in a funk, regardless of the pitcher. 4-23 (.174) and 1 RBI over his last 7 games.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Coming into tonight, he was batting .300 against lefties. Compare that to .194 against righties. He has more RBIs against lefties in less than half as many plate appearances.

:shrug:

Thome is batting .094 against relief pitching. 3-32 with 15 strikeouts.

Safe to say a lot of these at bat are against lefties.

:shrug:

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 12:18 AM
Thome is batting .094 against relief pitching. 3-32 with 15 strikeouts.

Safe to say a lot of these at bat are against lefties.

:shrug:

No doubt he is getting pwnd by LH relief but he is dominating LH starters.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 12:20 AM
No doubt he is getting pwnd by LH relief but he is dominating LH starters.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing those numbers go down as well.

I'm staring to think a Thome/Dye platoon at DH may be the way to go.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 12:23 AM
I have a feeling we'll be seeing those numbers go down as well.

I'm staring to think a Thome/Dye platoon at DH may be the way to go.

Yes, I do not think he will keep it up either.

DickAllen72
05-03-2008, 12:29 AM
Everett had some HUGE hits for the Sox in 2005. I won't argue that Thome's the better player, but Everett didn't stink. He came up huge when it counted and was super clutch in the first half with runners in scoring position.



As far as any at bat...right now, Thome has no chance whatsoever against most lefthanders. He looks completely overmatched, like he's guessing at the plate.
Agreed on all counts.

Frontman
05-03-2008, 05:59 AM
Front:

I don't know if they can or will but I pose this question. At what point (especially for the guys from last year) does this start as Swisher said "to get in their heads" and they start pressing?

Has it already begun?

Hawk once said that when a manager becomes paranoid it filters right down the dugout. Can you say the same thing about hitting from a pressure standpoint?

Lip

I think it has begun, and its the batting coaches job to get them thinking right. Ozzie, while he can shoulder some of it; has to focus on the entire team's performance; working with his staff.

So far this season:

Starting pitching, a few stumbles; but otherwise doing their job.

Relief pitching: the same, a bit more shaky than the starters at times; but otherwise doing their job.

baserunning: Save a few running gaffes (which all teams will do) its been fine.

Fielding: Some unexplainable bad performances.

Hitting: Same as last season.

So, in my evaluation; Coop, Baines, Cox, Cora have been doing their job, and working on improving issues when they arise. I cannot understand how Walker hasn't addressed this and got a team to hit as well as it did in 2005/2006 first half to be so horrid at the plate. Paul, Jermaine, AJ, Joe, Juan were all a part of that lineup; but this team hasn't shown that since the All-star break of 2006.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 09:35 AM
Greg Walker: Hey guys. Here's the deal. You all know it. You are going to get a steady diet of offspeed pitches away and down. Here's a novel idea...how 'bout you actually try to go with the pitches away?

Lineup: Oppo? Are you serious? How can you hit a homer that way? You'll just be a Punch and Judy lineup, slicing singles to the opposite field!

Walker: We might actually score that way.

Lineup: Well, we hung a ton of runs on Verlander.

Walker: He throws fastballs primarily. He was fresh out of spring training, and his offspeed stuff wasn't locked in yet.

Lineup: Nah...we like to pull the ball. We'll just do that.

Telling a lineup full of mashers that they may have to shorten their swings (thereby limiting their power production) will fall on deaf ears.

Craig Grebeck
05-03-2008, 09:54 AM
Greg Walker: Hey guys. Here's the deal. You all know it. You are going to get a steady diet of offspeed pitches away and down. Here's a novel idea...how 'bout you actually try to go with the pitches away?

Lineup: Oppo? Are you serious? How can you hit a homer that way? You'll just be a Punch and Judy lineup, slicing singles to the opposite field!

Walker: We might actually score that way.

Lineup: Well, we hung a ton of runs on Verlander.

Walker: He throws fastballs primarily. He was fresh out of spring training, and his offspeed stuff wasn't locked in yet.

Lineup: Nah...we like to pull the ball. We'll just do that.

Telling a lineup full of mashers that they may have to shorten their swings (thereby limiting their power production) will fall on deaf ears.
You can take a lineup full of contact guys who shorten their swings and I'll take 9 Jim Thomes. We'll win 99/100.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 10:16 AM
You can take a lineup full of contact guys who shorten their swings and I'll take 9 Jim Thomes. We'll win 99/100.
And that, my friend, is where your logic fails you.

champagne030
05-03-2008, 10:27 AM
Greg Walker: Hey guys. Here's the deal. You all know it. You are going to get a steady diet of offspeed pitches away and down. Here's a novel idea...how 'bout you actually try to go with the pitches away?

Lineup: Oppo? Are you serious? How can you hit a homer that way? You'll just be a Punch and Judy lineup, slicing singles to the opposite field!

Walker: We might actually score that way.

Lineup: Well, we hung a ton of runs on Verlander.

Walker: He throws fastballs primarily. He was fresh out of spring training, and his offspeed stuff wasn't locked in yet.

Lineup: Nah...we like to pull the ball. We'll just do that.

Telling a lineup full of mashers that they may have to shorten their swings (thereby limiting their power production) will fall on deaf ears.

That was a perfect post. It chaps my ass to no end that we usually have 7 guys in our lineup that refuse to take a pitch on the outer half the other way. :angry:

Seriously, Ozzie claims he'll throw anyone under the bus and it's time people started getting called out on their lack of team play.

Frontman
05-03-2008, 01:47 PM
That was a perfect post. It chaps my ass to no end that we usually have 7 guys in our lineup that refuse to take a pitch on the outer half the other way. :angry:

Seriously, Ozzie claims he'll throw anyone under the bus and it's time people started getting called out on their lack of team play.

And I'm sorry, I'll nip the whole "the season fell apart with the sac. bunt attempt" argument right in the bud.

This team has shown signs of the talent they have. They need to consistently perform up to their talent level.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 01:48 PM
And that, my friend, is where your logic fails you.

Why? A team of nine Jim Thomes would score an average of 10 runs a game.

:scratch:

Jenks4Prez
05-03-2008, 01:49 PM
Oh My God Yes!!!!!!!!!

Jjav829
05-03-2008, 01:50 PM
I'm tired of watching Uribe at all. He has to put together some of the worst at-bats of any player in the majors.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 05:39 PM
Everett had some HUGE hits for the Sox in 2005. I won't argue that Thome's the better player, but Everett didn't stink. He came up huge when it counted and was super clutch in the first half with runners in scoring position.

As far as any at bat...right now, Thome has no chance whatsoever against most lefthanders. He looks completely overmatched, like he's guessing at the plate.

Yes, Carl stunk. He had a .745 OPS in 2005, below league average. espn.com lists five DHs who had enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title, and Carl was the worst by a mile.

Jim right now has an .836 OPS, which is nowhere near his .950-plus career OPS, but even in the middle of this slump he's still a much better hitter than Carl.

As for the HUGE hits, I don't remember many. I remember being relieved when Big Hurt made his dramatic midseason comeback, because even though he couldn't run out a single he filled a huge hole in the lineup. Maybe you remember Carl getting a key hit, but he did have 500+ plate appearances, so he must have had a few.

DickAllen72
05-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Yes, Carl stunk. He had a .745 OPS in 2005, below league average. espn.com lists five DHs who had enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title, and Carl was the worst by a mile.

Jim right now has an .836 OPS, which is nowhere near his .950-plus career OPS, but even in the middle of this slump he's still a much better hitter than Carl.

As for the HUGE hits, I don't remember many. I remember being relieved when Big Hurt made his dramatic midseason comeback, because even though he couldn't run out a single he filled a huge hole in the lineup. Maybe you remember Carl getting a key hit, but he did have 500+ plate appearances, so he must have had a few.
I remember well into the 2005 season, Carl was leading the AL in game winning hits. Then he went into a slump but his two key triples in the final weeks of the season propelled the Sox into the playoffs.

Carl didn't put up the awesome numbers but he was a dangerous hitter in the clutch. With two strikes in a key situation I remember many times while in a sox uniform when Carl would change his stance and instead of swinging for HR's he would get one of those funny looking opposite field base hits with a lot of spin on the ball to drive in a big run. That's how he got the nickname "The Chauffer" for always driving them in.

JB98
05-03-2008, 06:11 PM
That was a perfect post. It chaps my ass to no end that we usually have 7 guys in our lineup that refuse to take a pitch on the outer half the other way. :angry:

Konerko had two hits today, one to right on an outside pitch and one right back through the middle.

I wish Paul would call a meeting and yell at his teammates to follow suit. Unfortunately, that is not in his character.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 06:13 PM
Why? A team of nine Jim Thomes would score an average of 10 runs a game.

:scratch:
Nah..they would score 20 runs on one day and then 1, 2, maybe 0 the next three. Every time a guy with MLB caliber offspeed stuff came to pitch, they'd be toast.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 06:15 PM
I remember well into the 2005 season, Carl was leading the AL in game winning hits. Then he went into a slump but his two key triples in the final weeks of the season propelled the Sox into the playoffs.

Carl didn't put up the awesome numbers but he was a dangerous hitter in the clutch. With two strikes in a key situation I remember many times while in a sox uniform when Carl would change his stance and instead of swinging for HR's he would get one of those funny looking opposite field base hits with a lot of spin on the ball to drive in a big run. That's how he got the nickname "The Chauffer" for always driving them in.
People forget that because Carl isn't a barrel chested guy with a big smile and a soft temper. It's not easy to appreciate Carl Everett, even though he warrants it. It's so much easier to cheer on the nice guy.

JB98
05-03-2008, 06:23 PM
People forget that because Carl isn't a barrel chested guy with a big smile and a soft temper. It's not easy to appreciate Carl Everett, even though he warrants it. It's so much easier to cheer on the nice guy.

Nonsense. I was a huge Carl fan, and I'm a huge Thome fan as well.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 06:24 PM
I remember well into the 2005 season, Carl was leading the AL in game winning hits. Then he went into a slump but his two key triples in the final weeks of the season propelled the Sox into the playoffs.

Carl didn't put up the awesome numbers but he was a dangerous hitter in the clutch. With two strikes in a key situation I remember many times while in a sox uniform when Carl would change his stance and instead of swinging for HR's he would get one of those funny looking opposite field base hits with a lot of spin on the ball to drive in a big run. That's how he got the nickname "The Chauffer" for always driving them in.

Yeah, when a bad hitter gets lucky and actually does his job he gets a reputation as being "clutch". Timo Perez had more memorable "clutch" hits than Carl. Maybe we should sign him!

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 06:27 PM
And, while we're at it, let's bring back Geoff Blum...

Brian26
05-03-2008, 07:31 PM
I remember well into the 2005 season, Carl was leading the AL in game winning hits. Then he went into a slump but his two key triples in the final weeks of the season propelled the Sox into the playoffs.

The two triples happened in consecutive games at Comerica. I remember this because I saw both of them in person. The first happened in the Wednesday night game, and then he had one early in the Thursday clincher. I remember him having a huge 2-out hit in the AJ walkoff on throwback the clock night against the Dodgers. He had a big homerun against the Twins on the first roadtrip of the season. Then there were all the little things he did like hitting the ball to the right side to get a runner from 2nd to 3rd or putting the ball in play when he had two strikes against a tough pitcher.

I'm not claiming that Everett is a better player than Thome or that we should bring him (or Blum) back, as that's ludicrous. However, it's also ludicrous to downplay Everett's role on the 2005 team and say that he stunk when he executed better than a lot of the guys on the 2008 team are doing right now, and that includes Thome.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 08:27 PM
it's also ludicrous to downplay Everett's role on the 2005 team and say that he stunk when he executed better than a lot of the guys on the 2008 team are doing right now, and that includes Thome.

OK. Carl did post a .992 OPS with runners in scoring position and two out that year -- but that comes from just 13 hits.

I think you're remembering those 13 hits and forgetting the .179 average leading off an inning. I think you're forgetting the .198 May, the .222 July, and the .206 September. I think you're forgetting the .156 average (.500 OPS), in "close and late" situations.

And I think you're forgetting that Thome's career OPS is .972, versus .803 for Everett. I think you're forgetting that last year Jim had 11 hits with RISP/2 out for a 1.345 OPS. He's 0-for-4 in that situation this year. That doesn't make him any less of a threat.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 08:32 PM
Update on Thome:

VS. Relief Pitchers

3-33 (.091), 16 K's

BRUTAL!

KyWhiSoxFan
05-03-2008, 09:54 PM
The meat of the lineup, Dye, Thome, Konerko, aged quickly and their deteriorating skills are really dragging down the team. Add in Uribe, who has never hit for average, and you have a struggling team that figures to continue to struggle. The Sox were last in the AL in batting average last year and they're last again. KW is going to have to gut the entire lineup next year.

The good news is their pitching is pretty good, and if you have good pitching you're going to be in a lot of games.

The need to go to the old, tried and true formula: Pitching, Speed, and Defense.

This team desperately needs speed.

TDog
05-03-2008, 09:56 PM
Update on Thome:

VS. Relief Pitchers

3-33 (.091), 16 K's

BRUTAL!

What do you conclude from that? If you look further, that comes out to 18-for-66 against starting pitching, which figures out to a .273 batting average. Half of his home runs are against left-handed starters, against whom he is hitting well over .300. Many of the relievers he is facing on on their respective teams for the express purpose of getting lefties out, and, with Thome, they obviously have been quite successful. With most pitchers who are especially tough on left-handers, the points in their delivery that make them so tough make them much easier to be hit by right-handers. That's why they aren't starting.

Most people here who don't want to trade him or release him would platoon him, starting him against right-handed starters. If you take these statistics seriously, and you want to play the percentages, you would start Thome every day and pinch-hit for him when a southpaw comes in to face him from the seventh inning onward. This would require a right-handed bench player who could hit and who you wouldn't be bringing into the game as a defensive replacement because he would become the designated hitter.

If you have Thome on the bench, you really couldn't bring him in to pinch-hit unless he is facing a right-handed pitcher who has just entered the game and must face at least one hitter or finish the inning before being removed. You could also use him if there is no lefty available in the opposing bullpen.

It's much easier to scream about playing Thome only against right-handers.

soxfan44
05-03-2008, 09:57 PM
That is a statement I do agree with. The station-to-station, homer-happy offense has been a Sox staple for years. Getting rid of Thome will not change this.


Station to Station and Homer Happy don't mean the same thing!

station to station = good

Homer Happy = bad (if not combined with some men on base)

NADA SURF
05-03-2008, 11:33 PM
I don't blame any single player. As I wrote, Thome has been a good hitter. Thome has put up very impressive numbers. However, he seems to produce mostly early in the game when there's not much pressure on. This season so far he is 3 for 24 from the seventh inning on. He seems to be the opposite of a Joe Crede when it comes to key situations late in games.

He also has had trouble over the past couple of seasons hitting lefties.
Your 3-for-24 stat on Thome after the seventh is a great stat, and I mean that!
I didn't realize...
That's pretty bad and if it's accurate, perhaps he should sit for a while.

JB98
05-03-2008, 11:35 PM
Your 3-for-24 stat on Thome after the seventh is a great stat, and I mean that!
I didn't realize...
That's pretty bad and if it's accurate, perhaps he should sit for a while.

Why? So Pablo Ozuna can get more at-bats?

Look, the team is what it is. Either the veterans turn it around or they don't.

NADA SURF
05-03-2008, 11:36 PM
Knock off the personal crap. Argue with what the other poster said, but don't ridicule them personally. You're making a habit of it.I shouldn't have done that and I'll send him an apology since it reads worse than I meant it...
How about YOU doing the same?
Everything you've posted is mean-spirited on here since I've been here, anyway. But I'll hold out hope and keep looking.

NADA SURF
05-03-2008, 11:38 PM
I'm tired of watching Uribe at all. He has to put together some of the worst at-bats of any player in the majors.
Another guy they should have NEVER brought back!

DickAllen72
05-03-2008, 11:40 PM
Your 3-for-24 stat on Thome after the seventh is a great stat, and I mean that!
I didn't realize...
That's pretty bad and if it's accurate, perhaps he should sit for a while.
I don't advocate sitting Thome, unless maybe for a game here and there for a rest or against some LH pitchers, but what I have been saying is I'd like to see him moved down a couple of spots in the order and give Quentin a shot at the three hole, especially now when he's been their best hitter.

SOXfnNlansing
05-04-2008, 12:14 AM
:DJ

"Ut oh"

Nellie_Fox
05-04-2008, 02:26 AM
You can take a lineup full of contact guys who shorten their swings and I'll take 9 Jim Thomes. We'll win 99/100.No, you won't.

I shouldn't have done that and I'll send him an apology since it reads worse than I meant it...
How about YOU doing the same?
Everything you've posted is mean-spirited on here since I've been here, anyway. But I'll hold out hope and keep looking.You've been here a very short time. Show me where I've ridiculed anyone, like you do on a regular basis.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 07:09 AM
You can take a lineup full of contact guys who shorten their swings and I'll take 9 Jim Thomes. We'll win 99/100.

:rolling:

Yeah, I can't wait to see a 5-4-3 or 6-4-3 double play turned by Jim Thome, Jim Thome and Jim Thome, or CF Jim Thome chase down a ball in the gap, or C Jim Thome run down a pop foul, or SS Jim Thome go get one deep in the hole.