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View Full Version : When do we worry about Thome's Option


Jenks4Prez
05-02-2008, 04:26 PM
I wanted to point this out to my fellow White Sox fans....

At what point do we need to start worrying about Jim Thome getting enough plate appearances for his 2009 Club option to kick in?

The 2009 Club option is guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2007 or 1,100 PAs in 2007-08

Jimbo only had 432 PA's in 2007. Therefore he would need 668 PA's in 2008 for the option to kick in.

It would be statistically impossible for Jimbo to reach this many appearances in one regular season. However, if we make the playoffs it could be possible. As it stands right now, Thome already has 92 PA's so far this year and IF he were to stay healthy and IF we were to make a push in the playoffs he could get enough PA's for the option to kick in.

This would obviously be horrible for the organization if they had to keep Thome next year at a whopping 13M. Therefore, I thought it was an interesting thing to keep an eye on.

sox1970
05-02-2008, 04:28 PM
Post season AB's don't count toward incentives.

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 04:29 PM
I believe he had a total of 536 TPA (total plate appearances) last year (includes walks, sacrifices, etc.). He has 112 TPA so far this year.

JB98
05-02-2008, 04:29 PM
I wanted to point this out to my fellow White Sox fans....

At what point do we need to start worrying about Jim Thome getting enough plate appearances for his 2009 Club option to kick in?

The 2009 Club option is guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2007 or 1,100 PAs in 2007-08

Jimbo only had 432 PA's in 2007. Therefore he would need 668 PA's in 2008 for the option to kick in.

It would be statistically impossible for Jimbo to reach this many appearances in one regular season. However, if we make the playoffs it could be possible. As it stands right now, Thome already has 92 PA's so far this year and IF he were to stay healthy and IF we were to make a push in the playoffs he could get enough PA's for the option to kick in.

This would obviously be horrible for the organization if they had to keep Thome next year at a whopping 13M. Therefore, I thought it was an interesting thing to keep an eye on.


I have Jim at 536 plate appearances last year. I believe you forgot the walks, HBP and sacrifice flies.

sox1970
05-02-2008, 04:33 PM
I believe he had a total of 536 TPA (total plate appearances) last year (includes walks, sacrifices, etc.). He has 112 TPA so far this year.

Correct on 536. So if he gets 564 this year, 2009 is guaranteed.

If not, it's a $13 million option, or a $3 million buyout.

btrain929
05-02-2008, 04:38 PM
Correct on 536. So if he gets 564 this year, 2009 is guaranteed.

If not, it's a $13 million option, or a $3 million buyout.

Or maybe a less likely, but maybe possible, 3rd choice of a restructed option ala Juan Uribe this offseason. I'll take Thome on one year contracts @ 8-9 million til he retires. He still gets a lot of money and job security, and we get a power hitting lefty and not paying insane amounts of money for it. I doubt at this point in his career he wants to bounce around from team to team on 1 yr deals. He lives here and I'm sure wants to stay here. However he's not a 13 million/yr player. If we can do what I suggested above like we did with Uribe, I think it works for all parties.

Jenks4Prez
05-02-2008, 04:43 PM
I have Jim at 536 plate appearances last year. I believe you forgot the walks, HBP and sacrifice flies.

Thank you. Now I am really scared about this option kicking in. 13 Million for Thome would spell trouble.

JB98
05-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Thank you. Now I am really scared about this option kicking in. 13 Million for Thome would spell trouble.

:scratch:

I don't see what the big deal is. That's the going rate for a guy who gives you 35 HRs and 100 RBIs, no?

When do we worry about Thome's option? At the end of the season. Right now, it has no bearing on anything.

getonbckthr
05-02-2008, 05:12 PM
Thank you. Now I am really scared about this option kicking in. 13 Million for Thome would spell trouble.
If you really think about it its 10 million for Thome. Subtract the buyout from the contract because the buyout is paid no matter what.

Daver
05-02-2008, 05:24 PM
Thank you. Now I am really scared about this option kicking in. 13 Million for Thome would spell trouble.


There is no salary cap in baseball.

jabrch
05-02-2008, 05:27 PM
Only when we are out of contention for the post season this year.

oeo
05-02-2008, 06:01 PM
If it happens, it happens.

I think the Sox should go in a different direction, but unfortunately, I don't think they will even if Thome doesn't meet the PA requirements.

whitesoxwilkes
05-02-2008, 06:02 PM
Yeah, having a 500 HR member and likely HOFer on our roster is a real drag.

Jenks4Prez
05-02-2008, 06:39 PM
Yeah, having a 500 HR member and likely HOFer on our roster is a real drag.

I admire your respect for a washed up slugger because of the uniform he wears.

oeo
05-02-2008, 06:45 PM
I admire your respect for a washed up slugger because of the uniform he wears.

Washed up? :scratch:

He didn't look too washed up last year.

Jenks4Prez
05-02-2008, 06:48 PM
Washed up? :scratch:

He didn't look too washed up last year.

The difference a year makes

IlliniSox4Life
05-02-2008, 06:53 PM
The difference a year makes

And I bet you in about a month Thome will look like a completely different player as well, and he'll carry this team for a few weeks.

rainbow6
05-02-2008, 07:14 PM
Jenks-

I get what you doing, trying to piss people of by using terms like "washed up." That's cool - whatever gets you off.

But can you answer a question?

I'm not a mathamagician, but Thome is a left handed hitter on pace for about 40 homeruns and well over 100 RBI this year.

This year.

As someone asked earlier - who are you going to plug in the lineup that has a track record like that and will be considerably cheaper?

I won't hold my breathe for an intelligent response.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 07:27 PM
And I bet you in about a month Thome will look like a completely different player as well, and he'll carry this team for a few weeks.
....by either striking out or hitting a homer, which is the crux of the problem.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 07:34 PM
....by either striking out or hitting a homer, which is the crux of the problem.

or walking to the tune of 117 a year (on average)...or a career +.400 OBP...

shall i continue?

thomas35forever
05-02-2008, 07:50 PM
Let me say something: if I didn't think Thome was doing a helluva job so far this year, I would've cut him from my fantasy team by now. His homers and RBIs make up for his strikeouts. Sorry, but I'd choose Thome over Konerko given the choice.

Parrothead
05-02-2008, 07:56 PM
I say let him go. We have enough DH's on the team. Yes, he is good guy but lets move on.

Jurr
05-02-2008, 08:19 PM
or walking to the tune of 117 a year (on average)...or a career +.400 OBP...

shall i continue?
He does NOTHING once he's on base. Yeah, continue. He's slow, aging, and the only reason the guy ever hits a double is because he just missed a homer. Otherwise, it's a strikeout. Hey, Jim...stop worrying about the hall of fame and try to go opposite field against the shift.

Lukin13
05-02-2008, 08:29 PM
Sit Jim against LH starters and he won't reach 500 ABs.

soxfan44
05-02-2008, 08:30 PM
I wanted to point this out to my fellow White Sox fans....

At what point do we need to start worrying about Jim Thome getting enough plate appearances for his 2009 Club option to kick in?

The 2009 Club option is guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2007 or 1,100 PAs in 2007-08

Jimbo only had 432 PA's in 2007. Therefore he would need 668 PA's in 2008 for the option to kick in.

It would be statistically impossible for Jimbo to reach this many appearances in one regular season. However, if we make the playoffs it could be possible. As it stands right now, Thome already has 92 PA's so far this year and IF he were to stay healthy and IF we were to make a push in the playoffs he could get enough PA's for the option to kick in.

This would obviously be horrible for the organization if they had to keep Thome next year at a whopping 13M. Therefore, I thought it was an interesting thing to keep an eye on.

Where did you get the AB incentive info? There's a site I've seen (mlb4u) that has stuff but it's dated.

I agree with you on Thome. Others on the board who are delusional about this team winning anything this year say, "so what about next year?" I say let's start planning for next year, and '10 and '11 now.

Marcum was FILTHY tonight, but it's very painful to watch this lineup. Swisher is in his own head.

On another contract related issue, any ideas how many options Owens has left?

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 08:41 PM
He does NOTHING once he's on base. Yeah, continue. He's slow, aging, and the only reason the guy ever hits a double is because he just missed a homer. Otherwise, it's a strikeout. Hey, Jim...stop worrying about the hall of fame and try to go opposite field against the shift.

Why would a player that has built an amazingly successful career hitting the way he does and is still doing so with success suddenly re-invent his style of play? And since when has he ever been fast? I too long for his glory days of 4 SBs in a season.

Despite the "crappy" season Thome has had so far, he is still a top 10 player in HRs, RBIs, BBs, SLG and OPS. Top 25 player in OBP, runs and doubles.

:rolleyes:

Jurr
05-02-2008, 09:06 PM
Why would a player that has built an amazingly successful career hitting the way he does and is still doing so with success suddenly re-invent his style of play? And since when has he ever been fast? I too long for his glory days of 4 SBs in a season.

Despite the "crappy" season Thome has had so far, he is still a top 10 player in HRs, RBIs, BBs, SLG and OPS. Top 25 player in OBP, runs and doubles.

:rolleyes:
Maybe he could do it so he could finally be on a world series winning team. The old Jim Thome didn't have a shift on him, because he still had the ability to hit to all fields. Not since he started belting 50 homers for the Phils did he scrap the rest of his offense.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 09:25 PM
Maybe he could do it so he could finally be on a world series winning team. The old Jim Thome didn't have a shift on him, because he still had the ability to hit to all fields. Not since he started belting 50 homers for the Phils did he scrap the rest of his offense.

Thome had the shift put on him back in Cleveland. This wasn't some magic change that happened because he was in Philly.

And Thome learning a new approach at this stage in his career isn't going to launch the Sox into the WS.

Nellie_Fox
05-03-2008, 12:13 AM
There is no salary cap in baseball.ęDaver.

Nellie_Fox
05-03-2008, 12:16 AM
...I won't hold my breathe for an intelligent response.I know people are edgy because of the way things are going, but posts are getting too personal. Rein it in.

Let me say something: if I didn't think Thome was doing a helluva job so far this year, I would've cut him from my fantasy team by now. I'm not commenting either way on Thome, but fantasy baseball is a piss-poor way to judge real baseball performance.

BadBobbyJenks
05-03-2008, 01:28 AM
Is this team better off going with Josh Fields as the DH next season and using the difference in salaries on keeping Crede?

fozzy
05-03-2008, 01:49 AM
I think the best option is to let Thome walk and move Dye to DH. That moves a defensive liability to DH and then find a lead-off hitter. The Sox would still have Dye, Paulie, Carlos, Crede/Fields and Swisher to provide power. With Thome, Juan, maybe Cabbera and maybe Crede we should have at least 20 million to spend next off season.

All that talk can wait though we have a titl to try to win THIS season.

Jenks4Prez
05-03-2008, 10:03 AM
Jenks-

I get what you doing, trying to piss people of by using terms like "washed up." That's cool - whatever gets you off.

But can you answer a question?

I'm not a mathamagician, but Thome is a left handed hitter on pace for about 40 homeruns and well over 100 RBI this year.

This year.

As someone asked earlier - who are you going to plug in the lineup that has a track record like that and will be considerably cheaper?

I won't hold my breathe for an intelligent response.

I don't think someone who thinks "mathamagician" is a word deserves an intelligent response. I think the word you were looking for is "mathematician."

TomBradley72
05-03-2008, 10:25 AM
Is this team better off going with Josh Fields as the DH next season and using the difference in salaries on keeping Crede?

yes

champagne030
05-03-2008, 10:34 AM
Or maybe a less likely, but maybe possible, 3rd choice of a restructed option ala Juan Uribe this offseason. I'll take Thome on one year contracts @ 8-9 million til he retires. He still gets a lot of money and job security, and we get a power hitting lefty and not paying insane amounts of money for it. I doubt at this point in his career he wants to bounce around from team to team on 1 yr deals. He lives here and I'm sure wants to stay here. However he's not a 13 million/yr player. If we can do what I suggested above like we did with Uribe, I think it works for all parties.

We only have to pay him $7.5M next season if the option vests. Philly is kicking in the other $5.5M.

Jenks4Prez
05-03-2008, 10:53 AM
We only have to pay him $7.5M next season if the option vests. Philly is kicking in the other $5.5M.

Thats good to hear, I thought Philly was off the hook after this year. It seems as though Philly is the team that really got screwed in this deal.

It's Dankerific
05-03-2008, 11:27 AM
We only have to pay him $7.5M next season if the option vests. Philly is kicking in the other $5.5M.

This is the first time I heard this, can it be verified somewhere? that makes a huge difference. 13 mill vs. 7.5 mill.

champagne030
05-03-2008, 11:38 AM
This is the first time I heard this, can it be verified somewhere? that makes a huge difference. 13 mill vs. 7.5 mill.

I know it's been reported more than once on this site.

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=837

Frater Perdurabo
05-03-2008, 01:11 PM
I don't think someone who thinks "mathamagician" is a word deserves an intelligent response. I think the word you were looking for is "mathematician."

I read that as a pun. I thought it was funny. For many of us, the ability to do math is comparable to the ability to do magic.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 01:46 PM
I know it's been reported more than once on this site.

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=837

All they did was divide the lump sum by the number of years. I have yet to see any proof that this is actually how Philly is sending the money over.

champagne030
05-03-2008, 02:53 PM
All they did was divide the lump sum by the number of years. I have yet to see any proof that this is actually how Philly is sending the money over.

What's proof? A cancelled check? I haven't seen anything that suggested we've been receiving $7.33M/year for 2006-2008. Do you suppose that the Phillies fronted us the $22M in 2006? I didn't think so......

roadrunner
05-03-2008, 03:04 PM
Too many basecloggers. Konerko, Thome, Dye, AJ, and Crede all lack the ability to go from first to third on a single, to score from first on a double, score from second on a single and score on anything less than a deep sacrifice fly. They're all prime double play candidates. None of them can be considered a good contact hitter. In short, there are too many one dimensional players in the lineup.

The contrast between those guys and Quentin on the bases is striking.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 03:05 PM
What's proof? A cancelled check? I haven't seen anything that suggested we've been receiving $7.33M/year for 2006-2008. Do you suppose that the Phillies fronted us the $22M in 2006? I didn't think so......

I wasn't suggesting it was a lump sum payment. Who is to say it wasn't $5M in 06, $6M in 07, $8M in 08 and $3M in 2009? I don't know the terms of these payments and neither do you. Anyone claiming the Sox get $5.5 million in 2009 are just guessing.

Noneck
05-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Assuming the Phils are kicking in 5.5 next year. He is really only costing the Sox 13m-5.5m-3m(buyout)=4.5m if he meets the required PA for this year. That's Uribe money.

champagne030
05-03-2008, 03:49 PM
I wasn't suggesting it was a lump sum payment. Who is to say it wasn't $5M in 06, $6M in 07, $8M in 08 and $3M in 2009? I don't know the terms of these payments and neither do you. Anyone claiming the Sox get $5.5 million in 2009 are just guessing.

The website I listed is saying that it's not 'your' figures. Maybe, you're saying they're guessing and I'm not suggesting they are the "be all, end all", but they're not the only place I've seen the figure I posted. I'm confident they didn't just take the $22M and divide by 4. They nailed the Cabrera contract, among many others. It's actually a damn good site for contract figures.

Baines83
05-03-2008, 03:59 PM
Too many basecloggers. Konerko, Thome, Dye, AJ, and Crede all lack the ability to go from first to third on a single, to score from first on a double, score from second on a single and score on anything less than a deep sacrifice fly. They're all prime double play candidates. None of them can be considered a good contact hitter. In short, there are too many one dimensional players in the lineup.

The contrast between those guys and Quentin on the bases is striking.
Very true! According to Bill James' 2008 handbook the Sox were one of the worst teams in baseball LAST year running the bases. Nothing has changed this year.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 04:05 PM
The website I listed is saying that it's not 'your' figures. Maybe, you're saying they're guessing and I'm not suggesting they are the "be all, end all", but they're not the only place I've seen the figure I posted. I'm confident they didn't just take the $22M and divide by 4. They nailed the Cabrera contract, among many others. It's actually a damn good site for contract figures.

Where else have you seen this figure posted? I'm not trying to be a jag here but I haven't seen it anywhere else.

champagne030
05-03-2008, 04:52 PM
Where else have you seen this figure posted? I'm not trying to be a jag here but I haven't seen it anywhere else.

I didn't think you were. It was on this site last year, but I cannot seem to find anything here these days.......

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/

Optipessimism
05-03-2008, 05:15 PM
Thank you. Now I am really scared about this option kicking in. 13 Million for Thome would spell trouble.
If Rafael Furcal is a $13 million player so is Thome who hits a ton.

Jenks4Prez
05-03-2008, 06:48 PM
If Rafael Furcal is a $13 million player so is Thome who hits a ton.

Two bad contracts don't make a right.

Daver
05-03-2008, 06:49 PM
Two bad contracts don't make a right.

But three lefts do.

LoveYourSuit
05-03-2008, 06:52 PM
But three lefts do.

I actually pictured my self in a car right now making three left turns to figure that one out.

Jenks4Prez
05-03-2008, 06:53 PM
But three lefts do.

HA! Never heard that one before.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-03-2008, 09:57 PM
If Rafael Furcal is a $13 million player so is Thome who hits a ton.

Maybe the Sox can find the guy who gave Furcal $13-million and have him take Thome off their hands.

StillMissOzzie
05-04-2008, 12:45 AM
Thank you. Now I am really scared about this option kicking in. 13 Million for Thome would spell trouble.

There is no salary cap in baseball.

ęDaver.

Daver, you have a firm grasp of the obvious and yet your statement ignores the issue at hand. I believe that the point Jenks4Prez is trying to make is that locking in $13M in payroll for the salary of a DH on the decline would severely hamper the Sox in making other free agent signings.

I for one would not be surprised if Thome got sat down "against the tough lefty pitchers" in order to make sure that this option does not become guaranteed.

SMO
:gulp:

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 07:55 AM
No, there is no salary cap in baseball, but the Sox operate within a finite budget. That budget has gotten larger over the past few years, and KW has spent that budget.

Anyway, my first choice is to trade Paulie, because we could get better value in return for him, but with his 10-5 rights, there's no point in discussing it.

So, if Thome option vests, buy out his 2009. Trade Dye this offseason. Or if 2008 tanks, trade both of them this year. Same with Uribe and Cabrera. Use the savings to re-sign Crede. In the meantime, sent Ramirez to Charlotte when Richar does his rehab stint so that those two can learn to play together. Next year, use the DH "position" to "rest" position players out of a "set" lineup, like this (primary position listed first, other positions that each player can play are in parentheses), then my predictions for their performance:

Swisher LF (1B, CF, RF, DH) ........... .260, .390, 25 HR, 25 2B, 20 SB
Ramirez SS (2B, CF) ..................... .275, .340, 20 HR, 30 2B, 25 SB
Quentin RF (LF) ............................ .285, .380, 30 HR, 30 2B, 15 SB
Fields DH (3B, LF, 1B) ................... .260, .330, 40 HR, 30 2B, 15 SB
Paulie 1B (DH) ............................. .275, .350, 35 HR, 30 2B, 1 SB
AJ C ........................................... .280, .325, 25 2B, 15 HR, 1 SB
Crede 3B (DH) ............................. .260, .310, 25 HR, 30 2B, 1 SB
Richar 2B .................................... .280, .340, 10 HR, 25 2B, 15 SB
Anderson CF (RF, LF) ..................... .250, .330, 20 HR, 30 2B, 15 SB
Starting lineup totals: .................... .265, .340, 230 HR, 245 2B, 108 SB

I like using a set lineup; everyone knows their role (backup C also bats sixth). I like the team defense. As long as it's not when Buehrle or Danks are pitching, Fields at 3B 1X/week won't kill us, and sticking him in LF or 1B 1X/week is OK, too. I like that Swisher, Ramirez, Quentin, Fields, Richar and Anderson all can steal a base if needed. That forces the opposing pitcher to pitch from the stretch more often, and also forces the opposing first baseman to play at the bag, leaving a gap on the right side of the infield. I think Anderson will produce like Mike Cameron.