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View Full Version : Time to re-evaluate Walker


ksimpson14
05-01-2008, 12:24 AM
Okay, a new year, a month of baseball is in the books. The White Sox are dead last in the AL in team batting average...

CHISOXFAN13
05-01-2008, 12:27 AM
And a majority of the guys struggling, including Thome and Konerko, are professional hitters who have been in the league for years.

Heaven forbid we place the blame on the players.

Boondock Saint
05-01-2008, 12:28 AM
Sometimes I wonder how great this team would be if people that were paid by the Sox made personnel decisions instead of people on the internet.

There's a reason that the Sox pay the people they do to evaluate performance. They're among the best at it. The Sox have evaluated Walker in the offseason. The Sox are happy with Walker.

whitesoxfan
05-01-2008, 12:34 AM
And a majority of the guys struggling, including Thome and Konerko, are professional hitters who have been in the league for years.

Heaven forbid we place the blame on the players.

I've been leaning back and forth about the Walker thing for quite some time now, but I'm getting tired of seeing this excuse. Yeah, they're professional hitters. But so what? I guess we don't need any coaches because after all, these guys are all professionals.

Part of me just wants Walker fired because there needs to be someone that is held accountable for this garbage. Someone needs to take the fall and someone needs to be blamed for this horrid offensive output since July of 2006.

Is it fair? A lot of things in life aren't fair. But like every other coaching job, a hitting coach doesn't get any praise when the going is good and the coach gets plenty of backlash when the going is bad. That's the way it is for almost every single coach in professional sports. It's not going to change.

thomas35forever
05-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Part of me just wants Walker fired because there needs to be someone that is held accountable for this garbage. Someone needs to take the fall and someone needs to be blamed for this horrid offensive output since July of 2006.
The White Sox are not going to point fingers on who's to blame for the hitting slump the team's been in for the last 22 months and Ozzie is definitely not going to even try to get rid of Walker. Yes, Ozzie's just as upset about the slump as the rest of us, but if he didn't think Walker was doing his job, he would've been gone by now.

The core of the lineup has been in the majors for several years now, so even if Walker did work with them, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Like it or not, Walker's here to stay.

whitesoxfan
05-01-2008, 12:43 AM
The White Sox are not going to point fingers on who's to blame for the hitting slump the team's been in for the last 22 months and Ozzie is definitely not going to even try to get rid of Walker. Yes, Ozzie's just as upset about the slump as the rest of us, but if he didn't think Walker was doing his job, he would've been gone by now.

The core of the lineup has been in the majors for several years now, so even if Walker did work with them, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Like it or not, Walker's here to stay.

I don't really care if he's here to stay or not. Whatever happens with Walker happens, as far as I'm concerned.

ksimpson14
05-01-2008, 01:37 AM
Sometimes I wonder how great this team would be if people that were paid by the Sox made personnel decisions instead of people on the internet.

There's a reason that the Sox pay the people they do to evaluate performance. They're among the best at it. The Sox have evaluated Walker in the offseason. The Sox are happy with Walker.

That, or Walker is a part of the 'management's friend' fraternity. From listening to most of the interviews, I get the impression that the players like Walker for using that 'leave veterans alone' excuse, which would really translate into not having another coach making you change things up or giving you extra work. In the end, all I have to judge are the results, and add on another season starting with more of the same, enough of a sample for me. Part of me just wants Walker fired because there needs to be someone that is held accountable for this garbage. Someone needs to take the fall and someone needs to be blamed for this horrid offensive output since July of 2006.

Good point, if anything, it could've served as a kick in the pants to the players, almost a way to hold them accountable (since you're not going to buyout a ton of your players). You got a guy you liked fired, Change your Approach. Instead, we've had bad tendencies and an embarrassing year last year with no one accountable. Hitting coach remains and our head coach got rewarded (extension was weird timing)

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 02:10 AM
Keep Walker...
He's the hitting coach of a team full of veteran players that aren't going to change the way they hit...
It's up to these guys to look to go the other way once in a while and get on base and keep their composure in pressure situations....
The hitting coach is about as useless on a veteran team as this so-called 'team leader.'

Lillian
05-01-2008, 04:29 AM
Isn't possible that the weather is in great part responsible for the poor start to this team's batting average? Perhaps the best indication of that is the much better than expected start for the pitching staff. Both teams had to play in that miserable April, and the other team's hitters didn't fare any better than our guys.
I suspect that by the end of the year the Sox pitching will have given up about a run per game more than it has so far, and the hitting will have improved in a commensurate manner.

Cold weather probably effects older players more than younger guys, and it may effect guys used to playing in warmer climates more than it does others.
In any case, it's hard to believe that this whole team will hit much different than their career stats.
If Quentin has really begun to realize his vast potential, this offense will be very formidable, although I do wish it had more speed. And if Uribe's new stance can get him to be at least dangerous, we could have a very potent one through nine lineup.

Mohoney
05-01-2008, 04:33 AM
I honestly don't know which way to go on this.

We have the same problems recognizing and hitting changeups as we did during Walker's entire tenure. We have the same problems against LHP as we did during Walker's entire tenure. We have the same problems against no name pitchers as we did during Walker's entire tenure. Nothing in any of these areas has improved.

Then again, poor performances by professional hitters, with proven track records, have really killed us for a season plus. These guys have done better in the past, and they should be doing better now.

Some of our problems as an offense have been around even before Walker got here, but then again, Walker didn't exactly fix them, either.

Bucky F. Dent
05-01-2008, 07:56 AM
And a majority of the guys struggling, including Thome and Konerko, are professional hitters who have been in the league for years.

Heaven forbid we place the blame on the players.


The two guys having the worst years relative to what we should reasonably expect from them are O.C. and Swish. These guys are, as you say, "professional hitters." They should not have to rely on Walk to get their offensive games together.

It's time for them to start earning their paychecks.

fquaye149
05-01-2008, 08:00 AM
Sometimes I wonder how great this team would be if people that were paid by the Sox made personnel decisions instead of people on the internet.

There's a reason that the Sox pay the people they do to evaluate performance. They're among the best at it. The Sox have evaluated Walker in the offseason. The Sox are happy with Walker.

Oh come on--Walker DOES kind of suck.

THat said, the people who ARE hitting well are the kind of people a hitting coach would affect. The people who AREN'T hitting well are the kind of people a hitting coach WOULDN'T affect.

Walker may or may not ought to be fired. However, this year doesn't present any overwhelming evidence to that fact. What hitting coach is going to teach Thome or Konerko to hit? Jebus

fquaye149
05-01-2008, 08:01 AM
The two guys having the worst years relative to what we should reasonably expect from them are O.C. and Swish. These guys are, as you say, "professional hitters." They should not have to rely on Walk to get their offensive games together.

It's time for them to start earning their paychecks.

No, the two guys having the worst years relative to what we should reasonably expect from them are our #3 and #4 hitter

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 08:15 AM
I've never thought much of Walker as a hitting coach. The Sox have under his tenure been absolutely miserable against soft-tossers (especially lefties) and against guys they haven't seen before. Those are both things that your hitting coach should be able to prepare the whole team for and yet the Sox go up against rookies looking like a bunch of bush-leaguers.

southsideirish71
05-01-2008, 08:30 AM
I've never thought much of Walker as a hitting coach. The Sox have under his tenure been absolutely miserable against soft-tossers (especially lefties) and against guys they haven't seen before. Those are both things that your hitting coach should be able to prepare the whole team for and yet the Sox go up against rookies looking like a bunch of bush-leaguers.

On Whitesox weekly a year ago they discussed Walk and assistant hitting coach Mike Gellinger. The most disturbing thing when they interviewed Gellinger. They asked him point blank about the video and how they prepare for a new pitcher. He stated that is not what they use the video for, that they dont break down their swing. The video is used predominately to show only success to help their mental state. So basically Paulie goes in and watches video of himself hitting home runs to make him feel good is what I got out of that. That expensive state of the art video system is there as an atta boy I can hit great long home runs. How about this, use the Video to breakdown new pitchers, and hire a shrink for their mental state.

Mike and Walk can both go as far as I am concerned.

doublem23
05-01-2008, 08:32 AM
The two guys having the worst years relative to what we should reasonably expect from them are O.C. and Swish. These guys are, as you say, "professional hitters." They should not have to rely on Walk to get their offensive games together.

It's time for them to start earning their paychecks.

Um, considering Swisher never batted 1st in his career until this year, I'd say he's doing a remarkably good job... Even with his latest slump, he's still has an OBP of .385, which is better than everyone's boy, Brian Roberts.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-01-2008, 08:43 AM
I'd get rid of Walker just to shake things up. They're last again in hitting. When that happens, you don't fire all the players but the coach. What's the downside of getting rid of him? They can't get any worse.

Maybe a new philosophy and approach will energize the team.

soxfan13
05-01-2008, 09:03 AM
On Whitesox weekly a year ago they discussed Walk and assistant hitting coach Mike Gellinger. The most disturbing thing when they interviewed Gellinger. They asked him point blank about the video and how they prepare for a new pitcher. He stated that is not what they use the video for, that they dont break down their swing. The video is used predominately to show only success to help their mental state. So basically Paulie goes in and watches video of himself hitting home runs to make him feel good is what I got out of that. That expensive state of the art video system is there as an atta boy I can hit great long home runs. How about this, use the Video to breakdown new pitchers, and hire a shrink for their mental state.

Mike and Walk can both go as far as I am concerned.

Funny cuz Konerko just said the other day how they break down videos of new pitchers all the time but you really dont get a full feel for the pitcher until you face him live.:dunno:

palehozenychicty
05-01-2008, 09:36 AM
On Whitesox weekly a year ago they discussed Walk and assistant hitting coach Mike Gellinger. The most disturbing thing when they interviewed Gellinger. They asked him point blank about the video and how they prepare for a new pitcher. He stated that is not what they use the video for, that they dont break down their swing. The video is used predominately to show only success to help their mental state. So basically Paulie goes in and watches video of himself hitting home runs to make him feel good is what I got out of that. That expensive state of the art video system is there as an atta boy I can hit great long home runs. How about this, use the Video to breakdown new pitchers, and hire a shrink for their mental state.

Mike and Walk can both go as far as I am concerned.

I'm not that surprised. People using the argument that they're veteran hitters is weak as well. Some accountability has to be factored in for the same results coming after several years. The hitting flaws on the team/organization predate Walker, but that cements the point on a stronger level. Something must change.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 09:36 AM
Okay, a new year, a month of baseball is in the books. The White Sox are dead last in the AL in team batting average...

The Texas Rangers are #2 in team batting average, record: 10-18
We're at/near the top in runs/game...so our offense (overall) has been as productive as any team in the AL. Middle of the pack in OBP, bear the top in Walks/Game.
Who is the specific batting guru that is going to help Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Konerko and Uribe get our of their slumps?
Does Walker than get credit for Quentin hitting the best he has in his career? AJ's fast start? Crede's great month coming off back surgery? Anderson hitting .300?

No doubt we're slumping over the past week...and I'm not a passionate Walker defender....I just don't think replacing him is going to be the reason the veterans who are struggling return to their career averages...which is all we need.

Frater Perdurabo
05-01-2008, 09:36 AM
Firing Walker is a necessary but insufficient step for fixing the hitting woes.

The entire Sox organization has a bad approach to hitting.

Players are promoted through the minors solely on their ability to hit for power. Power is preferable to high average or high OBP, and strikeouts are accepted in exchange for power.

If Walker gets canned, they will just bring in another hitting coach who preaches "swing for the fences!"

russ99
05-01-2008, 09:40 AM
I'd get rid of Walker just to shake things up. They're last again in hitting. When that happens, you don't fire all the players but the coach. What's the downside of getting rid of him? They can't get any worse.

Maybe a new philosophy and approach will energize the team.

Agree. Is Walt Hriniak avaliable?

I thought Ozzie was the one who can hire/fire coaches. If so, Walker's probably staying.

My big question is would Kenny go over Ozzie's head to fire Walker if the hitting doesn't improve in another week? Anything close to the awful experience of last year may force Kenny's hand if it gets much worse...

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 09:42 AM
Since you brought it up FP, I don't really like that philosophy at all and I never liked it. I think it's another sign of an organization that is excessively cheap like the White Sox under Reinsdorf and Einhorn have been IMHO.

soxfan21
05-01-2008, 09:45 AM
I think that something has to be done. Whether it is firing Walker or telling the players that are not hitting well to turn it up a notch. It seems that some players are starting out this season the way they ended last, and I really hope that this does not stay this way for the entire season. Something has to be done to make these guys hit again because I, as well as many others, do not want to see the bats go south the way that they did last year.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 09:46 AM
Part of me just wants Walker fired because there needs to be someone that is held accountable for this garbage. Someone needs to take the fall and someone needs to be blamed for this horrid offensive output since July of 2006.



The White Sox were #3 in runs scored as a team in 2006 and he should be fired for that output? Yes they slumped in the 2nd half (so did the pitching)...but if he should be fired for the 2nd half, then he should he have received an extension for the red hot 1st half? The big slumpers in the 2nd half fo '06 were Uribe and Podsednik...Walker's fault? Thome's production dropped off a cliff in the 2nd half due to an injury (elbow?)...that had a huge impact on the offense.

As far as 2007 goes...if you fire Walker for the 2007 results...not a single coach would still be here. Ozzie, KW would be gone as well.

doublem23
05-01-2008, 09:52 AM
The Texas Rangers are #2 in team batting average, record: 10-18
We're at/near the top in runs/game...so our offense (overall) has been as productive as any team in the AL. Middle of the pack in OBP, bear the top in Walks/Game.


The Rangers are 10-18 because their team ERA is 5.60, dead last in the A.L.

If the Sox were hitting even in the middle of the pack of the American League, with they way they're pitching, they would have opened up a 4-6 game lead in the division already. It's dangerous living, letting Cleveland and Detroit hang around after their miserable starts.

Frater Perdurabo
05-01-2008, 09:56 AM
Since you brought it up FP, I don't really like that philosophy at all and I never liked it. I think it's another sign of an organization that is excessively cheap like the White Sox under Reinsdorf and Einhorn have been IMHO.

I don't think it's due to cheapness; at least not anymore. I think it's due to loyalty.

I think it goes back to Hawk. Reinsdorf obviously respects Hawk's opinion. Both have been loyal to one another over the years. JR and Einhorn fired Harry and Jimmy because they dared to speak their minds and question JR. They were not loyal to JR.

Hawk is the consumate "company man." He would never speak ill of JR. JR values that in his people and over the years has come to trust Hawk.

JR and Hawk obviously talk a lot, too. How else would Hawk gain his reputation for telling us fans exactly what JR wants us to hear?

Conversation and influence go both ways. I think JR asks Hawk's opinion on lots of things, and I think Hawk feels free to give JR his opinion even if he's not asked.

I think Hawk always liked KW, and that's a big reason KW got a shot as minor league director and then as GM (Schueler would still be GM if he had not resigned). And given that they won a World Series, having KW as GM has worked out well overall! So JR has even more reason to trust Hawk's opinion.

I think Hawk likes Walker, too. Both were similar high power/high strikeout/low average/low OBP hitters. So if JR (and therefore KW) trust Hawk, and Hawk says that Walker is a good hitting coach and is not the problem, who are they going to believe? Us outsiders? Or those who are in the inner circle, who have given some good advice in the past, who have shown themselves to be consummate "company men" and who are loyal to the organization? Therefore, Walker's job is secure.

And even if Walker does get "reassigned," the same organizational approach to hitting will continue, as long as JR continues to trust Hawk to identify "good hitters" and "good hitting coaches."

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 10:04 AM
The Rangers are 10-18 because their team ERA is 5.60, dead last in the A.L.

If the Sox were hitting even in the middle of the pack of the American League, with they way they're pitching, they would have opened up a 4-6 game lead in the division already. It's dangerous living, letting Cleveland and Detroit hang around after their miserable starts.

But they are also 7th in runs scored...and IMO that's the real measure of an offense. Don't tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit it.:cool:

True enough that we could have built a bigger lead in April...I just don't think the hitting coach is the reason we haven't. The five consecutive blown saves had a bigger impact.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 10:07 AM
.

I think Hawk likes Walker, too. Both were similar high power/high strikeout/low average/low OBP hitters. So if JR (and therefore KW) trust Hawk, and Hawk says that Walker is a good hitting coach and is not the problem, who are they going to believe? Us outsiders? Or those who are in the inner circle, who have given some good advice in the past, who have shown themselves to be consummate "company men" and who are loyal to the organization? Therefore, Walker's job is secure.

And even if Walker does get "reassigned," the same organizational approach to hitting will continue, as long as JR continues to trust Hawk to identify "good hitters" and "good hitting coaches."

I do not believe for a minute that Ozzie Guillen has Walker as his hitting coach because of Hawk. Ozzie has fired coaches before if they aren't doing the job. He'll do it again if he thinks that's what is necessary.

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 10:14 AM
Frater, there's no doubt JR runs this team as a company and bases a lot of personnel decisions based on company loyalty. That's the thing that I find amazing about the hiring of Steve Stone. A complete outsider, no real loyalty to the organization and yet in a fairly trusted position. If Stone sees bad baseball he says it, he doesn't gloss it over. He doesn't waste time arguing about sportswriters and I've never heard him criticize anybody other than indiviudal players, but I'm sure in private he has opinions about the management, manager, pitching and hitting coaches. Have heard him critisize a vendor or two.
Digressing: I agree that company loyalty is right up there. I think JR is cheap as well to the gross detriment of the team. JR got one WS win in the 28 years he's owned the team. Does that mean he's above the expected one win every thirty years? Since the White Sox are above average in revenue generated, I think we should be above average in expectations, and yet I don't think this ownership group has delivered much of that.

The Immigrant
05-01-2008, 10:21 AM
I think JR is cheap as well to the gross detriment of the team. JR got one WS win in the 28 years he's owned the team. Does that mean he's above the expected one win every thirty years? Since the White Sox are above average in revenue generated, I think we should be above average in expectations, and yet I don't think this ownership group has delivered much of that.

*** does this tired nonsense have to do with Greg Walker?

Frater Perdurabo
05-01-2008, 10:25 AM
I do not believe for a minute that Ozzie Guillen has Walker as his hitting coach because of Hawk. Ozzie has fired coaches before if they aren't doing the job. He'll do it again if he thinks that's what is necessary.

Ozzie also values loyalty.

Shines wasn't getting the job done, and he also wasn't a loyal Sox "lifer" or an "Ozzie guy," so he was fired.

Raines had several good years with the Sox, but wasn't a true Sox "lifer," or an "Ozzie guy," and therefore when he asked for more opportunities, got canned.

Who else has Ozzie fired? Kusnyer and Nossek stepped down for health reasons.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Ozzie also values loyalty.

Shines wasn't getting the job done, and he also wasn't a loyal Sox "lifer" or an "Ozzie guy," so he was fired.

Raines had several good years with the Sox, but wasn't a true Sox "lifer," or an "Ozzie guy," and therefore when he asked for more opportunities, got canned.

Who else has Ozzie fired? Kusnyer and Nossek stepped down for health reasons.

Most leaders value "loyalty" as part of the equation. But most don't value it above competency to do the job. If Ozzie felt GW was't doing the job I believe he would replace him. I don't believe Hawk has much (if any) input at all into the make up of the coaching staff.

As far as why Raines got fired goes...I don't believe it was because he "asked for more opportunities"...it's because he wasn't getting the job done. Ozzie was his teammate for several years and had a long relationship with him. But in the end, notting getting the job done was a bigger factor than loyalty.

doublem23
05-01-2008, 10:35 AM
I think JR is cheap as well to the gross detriment of the team. JR got one WS win in the 28 years he's owned the team. Does that mean he's above the expected one win every thirty years? Since the White Sox are above average in revenue generated, I think we should be above average in expectations, and yet I don't think this ownership group has delivered much of that.

Aren't the Sox in the Top 5 of baseball pay-rolls? I know they're Top 10.

:rolleyes:

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 10:42 AM
I've never thought much of Walker as a hitting coach. The Sox have under his tenure been absolutely miserable against soft-tossers (especially lefties) and against guys they haven't seen before. Those are both things that your hitting coach should be able to prepare the whole team for and yet the Sox go up against rookies looking like a bunch of bush-leaguers.

Thank you!! Preparation against unknowns seems to be a key thing Walker doesn't do a great job of and it hurts our team greatly.

Enough with the excuses, yeah they are professional hitters, but that doesn't mean they can take a little teaching or a lil prep that they themselves don't have the time to do while they are playing? No? Why does any team employ a hitting coach then? I hate the excuses... we have hit like **** for the past 22 months, somebody needs to be held accountable, plain and simple.

fquaye149
05-01-2008, 10:44 AM
Aren't the Sox in the Top 5 of baseball pay-rolls? I know they're Top 10.

:rolleyes:

Maybe you didn't get the memo--JR is cheap!

torii hunter! A-Rod! Bartolo Colon! Carlos Lee

in short, what a cheapskate

Frater Perdurabo
05-01-2008, 10:45 AM
Frater, there's no doubt JR runs this team as a company and bases a lot of personnel decisions based on company loyalty. That's the thing that I find amazing about the hiring of Steve Stone. A complete outsider, no real loyalty to the organization and yet in a fairly trusted position. If Stone sees bad baseball he says it, he doesn't gloss it over. He doesn't waste time arguing about sportswriters and I've never heard him criticize anybody other than indiviudal players, but I'm sure in private he has opinions about the management, manager, pitching and hitting coaches. Have heard him critisize a vendor or two.

Digressing: I agree that company loyalty is right up there. I think JR is cheap as well to the gross detriment of the team. JR got one WS win in the 28 years he's owned the team. Does that mean he's above the expected one win every thirty years? Since the White Sox are above average in revenue generated, I think we should be above average in expectations, and yet I don't think this ownership group has delivered much of that.

Stone was a Brooks Boyer hire. Brooks also has proven himself to be a company man (given his great work first with the Bulls and then with the Sox) and has earned JR's trust. Brooks probably had plenty of anecdotal and statistical evidence that convinced JR that Stone would be a good hire, but ultimately I think it was JR's trust in Brooks' judgment that allowed the Stone hiring to happen.

As for your second point, I think the Sox should have won it all in 1983 and 1994 but caught a few bad breaks both years. It's fair to blame JR for his role in the 1994 labor impasse, but he deserves some credit for 1983 (and of course 2005). I think the hiring of Hawk as GM and subsequent loss of Hemond and Dombrowski probably cost the Sox a lot more chances to capitalize on their large market presence. I think the continued trusting of Hawk's influence (which by now has permeated the entire organization) is a major drag on this organization.

Hawk's hitting approach is kind of like the "West Coast Offense" of the Sox organization. You can't give Bill Walsh credit for every coach who has used it successfully, or blame him when it fails. But his influence remains even after his death. By now, the "power first" hitting philosophy has permeated all levels of the Sox organization.

After a quarter-century (with just a two-year exile), to deny that Hawk has had any role in this power-first organizational approach is intellectually dishonest.

Frater Perdurabo
05-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Most leaders value "loyalty" as part of the equation. But most don't value it above competency to do the job. If Ozzie felt GW was't doing the job I believe he would replace him. I don't believe Hawk has much (if any) input at all into the make up of the coaching staff.

As far as why Raines got fired goes...I don't believe it was because he "asked for more opportunities"...it's because he wasn't getting the job done. Ozzie was his teammate for several years and had a long relationship with him. But in the end, notting getting the job done was a bigger factor than loyalty.

You're thinking too small. The power-first mentality permeates the entire organization. The problem goes way beyond Walker and Ozzie. It predates both of them. It's a systemic problem and Hawk has been a big part of the system. Along with JR, he's the only constant this organization has had since 1982, and his "exile" after his one-year GM stint was just two seasons.

chaerulez
05-01-2008, 11:01 AM
Aren't the Sox in the Top 5 of baseball pay-rolls? I know they're Top 10.

:rolleyes:

Sox are 10th at around 100 million, but only 15 million seperates them from the Cubs at 5th. Which we would've basically equaled if Torii Hunter was signed. Which I'm not blaming the Sox at all for, the offer they gave him was right, he got overpaid by the Angels.

Edit: The above info I got from an AP report. ESPN lists the Sox at 5th with a payroll of $121 million. And again, if Hunter was signed that would've jumped them to 4th over Boston at ESPN's reported $133 million.

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 11:11 AM
Power first dominates the White Sox and has for a long time. While I don't consider USCF as a phone booth, I do know that statistically, it's a pretty good place to hit homers. I don't think relying on the home run is winning baseball, although I do acknowledge that home run hitters tend to attract more fans than just high OBP guys. I personally think a 2-1 game with masterful pitching, tight defense and a couple of manufactered runs is the best kind of baseball game. I once caught a no-hitter and I have to say I was more involved in that game intellectually than any other game I ever played. Each pitch to each batter was important for me to consider. I realize there is a generation of sportswriters who think such a game is boring. Then again, who reads sportwriters anymore?

Nellie_Fox
05-01-2008, 11:14 AM
Power first dominates the White Sox and has for a long time. While I don't consider USCF as a phone booth, I do know that statistically, it's a pretty good place to hit homers. I don't think relying on the home run is winning baseball, although I do acknowledge that home run hitters tend to attract more fans than just high OBP guys. I personally think a 2-1 game with masterful pitching, tight defense and a couple of manufactered runs is the best kind of baseball game. I once caught a no-hitter and I have to say I was more involved in that game intellectually than any other game I ever played. Each pitch to each batter was important for me to consider. I realize there is a generation of sportswriters who think such a game is boring. Then again, who reads sportwriters anymore?I'm in complete agreement with you. I think the emphasis on home run hitters at the expense of everything else (preferring a second baseman who hits 20 homers over one who plays much better defense is an example) has damaged American baseball much like the emphasis on "one-on-one" and dunking has damaged American basketball. You'll notice that in both, we are now losing international competitions to countries that have much better fundamentals.

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 11:16 AM
I'm in complete agreement with you. I think the emphasis on home run hitters at the expense of everything else (preferring a second baseman who hits 20 homers over one who plays much better defense is an example) has damaged American baseball much like the emphasis on "one-on-one" and dunking has damaged American basketball. You'll notice that in both, we are now losing international competitions to countries that have much better fundamentals.

That's true.

oeo
05-01-2008, 11:20 AM
Does Walker than get credit for Quentin hitting the best he has in his career? AJ's fast start? Crede's great month coming off back surgery? Anderson hitting .300?

Quentin doesn't have much a major league career to make that basis off of. Although he's still hitting over his head, Quentin was always supposed to be a very good player. Injuries just slowed him down.

The other guys you've listed...AJ is not hitting well anymore, Crede had an unbelievable first couple of weeks and has now fallen off the map, and Anderson is batting .300 with a very small sample size.

The only way I see a change hurting is the players seem to like Walker. I'm a big believer in team chemistry, and unless they all dislike Walker (which by all reports it's the exact opposite), then firing him could hurt the clubhouse.

If he was going to get let go, it should have been at the end of 2007...too late for it now, IMO.

PatK
05-01-2008, 11:51 AM
For those that are using the "veteran" excuse for players who aren't hitting, and saying they don't need a hitting coach, DJ the other day said they should call Konerko "the Mechanic", because he's always working on his swing.

I thought veterans didn't need to work on their swing? Then why is Paulie?

doublem23
05-01-2008, 12:13 PM
I thought veterans didn't need to work on their swing? Then why is Paulie?

All baseball players, from time to time, need to work on their swing.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 12:20 PM
Quentin doesn't have much a major league career to make that basis off of. Although he's still hitting over his head, Quentin was always supposed to be a very good player. Injuries just slowed him down.

The other guys you've listed...AJ is not hitting well anymore, Crede had an unbelievable first couple of weeks and has now fallen off the map, and Anderson is batting .300 with a very small sample size.

The only way I see a change hurting is the players seem to like Walker. I'm a big believer in team chemistry, and unless they all dislike Walker (which by all reports it's the exact opposite), then firing him could hurt the clubhouse.

If he was going to get let go, it should have been at the end of 2007...too late for it now, IMO.

You can spin it any way you want to. Quentin was supposed to be a great player...but was a career .235 hitter across about 400 ABs before joining the WSox. Just because Crede has been cold for a week doesn't discount his impact to start the season. AJ is still over .300. Anderson has never hit .300 over the course of a full month with the White Sox. Do I really think GW deserves credit? No. Does he deserve blame for the other guys who are slumping? No.

I agree with just about everything you posted. The rationale for GW not getting "credit" for the players hitting well...is my same rationale for GW not being to blame for the veterans who are slumping. EVERYTHING is a small sample size right now...get hot for a week...and the stats bounce back quickly.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 12:22 PM
You're thinking too small. The power-first mentality permeates the entire organization. The problem goes way beyond Walker and Ozzie. It predates both of them. It's a systemic problem and Hawk has been a big part of the system. Along with JR, he's the only constant this organization has had since 1982, and his "exile" after his one-year GM stint was just two seasons.

So you honestly believe that if Ozzie went to KW and said he wanted to make a change with his hitting coach that Hawk could veto the move?

munchman33
05-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Here's a thought...could the regression of our "professional" hitters have nothing to do with both Walker and the effort given by our hitters?

Players get old. They naturally don't perform the same. Professional hitter or not.

As for Swisher, what do you expect? The guy's like a .260 lifetime hitter. Now you're asking him to take more pitches and try to walk more. Of course his average and power are going to dip. He's not going to hit .260 or 30 homers in the leadoff spot. It's a different approach. He's performing at the peak of what we should expect from him. He's been told to get on base and take lots of pitches, and that's exactly what he's doing. Kudos to him and Walker.

JB98
05-01-2008, 12:46 PM
I have no idea whether firing Greg Walker would help the Sox offense. I do know the players like him.

I suppose the Sox could fire Walker to send a message: "Hey *******s! You suck, and you just got a coach you like canned! Change the ****ing approach or you're next!"

Would that have an effect? I don't know.

I don't think Walker remains the hitting coach because of Hawk. That sounds like a reach to me. But Walker is definitely an "organization guy," just like Hawk. Therefore, we get all the typical Harrelson propaganda about how great Walker is.

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 12:51 PM
I have no idea whether firing Greg Walker would help the Sox offense. I do know the players like him.

I suppose the Sox could fire Walker to send a message: "Hey *******s! You suck, and you just got a coach you like canned! Change the ****ing approach or you're next!"

Would that have an effect? I don't know.

There have been recent examples of this idea working, the Indians did this in 2005, firing Eddie Murray and promptly when on their huge run.

Enough babying, enough organizational guys...enough already.

Frater Perdurabo
05-01-2008, 02:14 PM
So you honestly believe that if Ozzie went to KW and said he wanted to make a change with his hitting coach that Hawk could veto the move?

To address your hypothetical, I think that Ozzie would be allowed to fire Walker if he wanted to do so, and provided a justification for doing so.

However, I do not think it even occurs to Ozzie to hold Walker accountable for the hitters not hitting.

Moreover, I do not think Ozzie would ever decide to fire Walker on the basis of the hitters not hitting.

I think that if Ozzie (or KW or even JR) wanted to fire Walker and hire a new hitting coach, he (they) almost certainly would pick another hitting coach on the basis of his loyalty and/or personal/organizational ties, NOT on his ability to coach hitters to hit.

oeo
05-01-2008, 02:49 PM
Does he deserve blame for the other guys who are slumping? No.

Someone has to be the scapegoat, and it's usually the coach. What's he there for if he's not responsible for guys that are struggling? It must be nice having no accountability for your job. Yes they're professional hitters, but Walker is still there to look for the things that can help them not only get out of slumps, but stay out of them.

All this said, I still don't think Walker should be fired right now. I was in favor of it last July when we were out of it, and if we're knocked out early again, I'll be calling for it. Right now is not the time to possibly create other problems, though.

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 03:06 PM
One other thing to add, even about the most professional hitters, is that they are constantly working on their hitting. Only a very few times in baseball did I know any guy not to be working on his hitting and those guys were in dead on hot streaks. Their thoughts were "don't mess up what I'm doing right". As my team frequently travled by bus and golf ranges are very easy to spot in rural Japan and quite ubiqutous and every golf range has at least some capacity for batting practice, we used to watch for golf ranges and take extra batting practice often during the middle of long bus trips. For me, this always felt odd, why stop the bus for an hour in the middle of a 4 hour trip, but I lived with it. My teammates were absolutely nuts about it though. We'd always keep a bag of bats in the cabin of the bus and we'd occasionally post lookouts. I never got on a hot enough streak to not take batting practice.

I_Liked_Manuel
05-01-2008, 03:30 PM
if we finish last in the standings this year, we shouldn't hold ozzie accountable. i mean, come on, they're veterans.

walker should have been fired last year. i can't believe that we're still having this conversation.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 03:31 PM
I think that if Ozzie (or KW or even JR) wanted to fire Walker and hire a new hitting coach, he (they) almost certainly would pick another hitting coach on the basis of his loyalty and/or personal/organizational ties, NOT on his ability to coach hitters to hit.

Bizarre.

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 09:46 PM
The Texas Rangers are #2 in team batting average, record: 10-18
We're at/near the top in runs/game...so our offense (overall) has been as productive as any team in the AL. Middle of the pack in OBP, bear the top in Walks/Game.
Who is the specific batting guru that is going to help Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Konerko and Uribe get our of their slumps?
Does Walker than get credit for Quentin hitting the best he has in his career? AJ's fast start? Crede's great month coming off back surgery? Anderson hitting .300?

No doubt we're slumping over the past week...and I'm not a passionate Walker defender....I just don't think replacing him is going to be the reason the veterans who are struggling return to their career averages...which is all we need.
How's Texas' pitching?

NADA SURF
05-01-2008, 09:47 PM
Firing Walker is a necessary but insufficient step for fixing the hitting woes.

The entire Sox organization has a bad approach to hitting.

Players are promoted through the minors solely on their ability to hit for power. Power is preferable to high average or high OBP, and strikeouts are accepted in exchange for power.

If Walker gets canned, they will just bring in another hitting coach who preaches "swing for the fences!"
That post didn't appear to make one ounce of sense.

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 10:05 PM
One other thing to add, even about the most professional hitters, is that they are constantly working on their hitting. Only a very few times in baseball did I know any guy not to be working on his hitting and those guys were in dead on hot streaks. Their thoughts were "don't mess up what I'm doing right". As my team frequently travled by bus and golf ranges are very easy to spot in rural Japan and quite ubiqutous and every golf range has at least some capacity for batting practice, we used to watch for golf ranges and take extra batting practice often during the middle of long bus trips. For me, this always felt odd, why stop the bus for an hour in the middle of a 4 hour trip, but I lived with it. My teammates were absolutely nuts about it though. We'd always keep a bag of bats in the cabin of the bus and we'd occasionally post lookouts. I never got on a hot enough streak to not take batting practice.

No!! No way, veterans learn how to hit when they are 21, and never again have to change or alter anything... hell they don't even need to know what the guy their facing today throws. Little known fact that seems to only permeate the Chicago White Sox.

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 10:05 PM
That post didn't appear to make one ounce of sense.

Respectfully disagree here. It makes perfect sense to me.

ondafarm
05-01-2008, 10:06 PM
No!! No way, veterans learn how to hit when they are 21, and never again have to change or alter anything... hell they don't even need to know what the guy their facing today throws. Little known fact that seems to only permeate the Chicago White Sox.

Where are the Teal Police when you need them?

FedEx227
05-01-2008, 10:08 PM
Where are the Teal Police when you need them?

Exactly. I hate that excuse. "These are veteran hitters"... yeah, but even then they need to be told "Hey, you're kinda lunging a bit" or "Hey, this guy throws changeups in 0-1 counts about 95% of the time so beware"

Nope, NOTHING. Hitting coaches are not responsible for the performance of hitters are all.

What the hell kind of bizarro world are these Sox fans living in?

TheOldRoman
05-01-2008, 10:51 PM
Exactly. I hate that excuse. "These are veteran hitters"... yeah, but even then they need to be told "Hey, you're kinda lunging a bit" or "Hey, this guy throws changeups in 0-1 counts about 95% of the time so beware"

Nope, NOTHING. Hitting coaches are not responsible for the performance of hitters are all.

What the hell kind of bizarro world are these Sox fans living in?Exactly. Many, many coaches/managers better at their jobs than Walker is at his have been fired. It wouldn't be a senseless tragedy.

I happen to think he is a horrible hitting coach. Even if you don't think he is the problem, he still needs to be axed. There comes a point where heads need to roll. Someone needs to be held responsible. The players need a cold slap in the face and someone to let them know "this **** don't fly." A change needs to be made. A message needs to be sent.

There is no reason at all to believe the offense will improve under Walker. What you see is what you get, and have gotten his entire tenure outside of 2005. They will look like world beaters two or three nights in a row, scoring 10 a game, and then they can't touch 10 runs over the next three games. Lots of people are still upset about the 2003 team. Some people even said they were better than 05. 2003 wasn't a juggernaut. They were an extremely flawed team of guys swinging for the fences. Sure, the pitching could have been mediocre and the bats caught fire for two weeks (like the Angels in 2002), but most likely that team in the playoffs would have been a repeat of 2000. 2005 was different because they were more fundamentally sound. They wouldn't go on absolute tears for a couple games at a time and then look like a AA team for a week. That team winning was more than just the pitching. We wouldn't have won the title in 05 with the 2003 offense.

2006, in particular the second half, was terrible offensively. It carried over into 07, and now into 08. This is Greg Walker's offense. Swing for the fences, pull everything, swing at balls in the dirt, and then take strike three over the heart of the plate. The year have changed, the players have changed, and the results are the same. I don't care if his teams lead the league in scoring, 9 runs followed by 3 and 2 isn't acceptable. Being completely clueless against lefties, career journeymen, minor league call-ups, and anyone who throws under 90 is unacceptable. That is just what you will continue to get.

TomBradley72
05-01-2008, 10:55 PM
What's he there for if he's not responsible for guys that are struggling? It must be nice having no accountability for your job. Yes they're professional hitters, but Walker is still there to look for the things that can help them not only get out of slumps, but stay out of them.


I'm all for accountability...but he's accountable both ways...both for the guys doing well, the overall run production of the team (currently among the highest in the league) as well as the guys who are struggling.

I'm willing to give these hitters a few more weeks to get on track before I think firing GW is going to help us win the division this year.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:23 AM
Respectfully disagree here. It makes perfect sense to me.
It appears to me that he said that firing Walker is the necessary move, but that we would only be bringing in another guy that will also ask them to swing for the fences...

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:30 AM
Exactly. I hate that excuse. "These are veteran hitters"... yeah, but even then they need to be told "Hey, you're kinda lunging a bit" or "Hey, this guy throws changeups in 0-1 counts about 95% of the time so beware"

Nope, NOTHING. Hitting coaches are not responsible for the performance of hitters are all.

What the hell kind of bizarro world are these Sox fans living in?
So, you're insinuating that Walker is not letting these guys know if they're doing something incredibly obvious like lunging, as you say...
Also, that he or someone in the organization is not filling them in on the a scouting report on the pitchers?
What kind of a bizarro world are you living in?
Did Walker do something different in coaching Dye and Konerko last year than he did the previous two years when those guys rocked?
Any talk of firing Walker is a waste of time.
Move onto something important.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:34 AM
I'm all for accountability...but he's accountable both ways...both for the guys doing well, the overall run production of the team (currently among the highest in the league) as well as the guys who are struggling.

I'm willing to give these hitters a few more weeks to get on track before I think firing GW is going to help us win the division this year.
Firing Greg Walker is NEVER going to help this team win a division!
Hopefully, these players won't allow his firing.
Also, some of these choke-mongers, like Cabrera, will quit looking so frightened in clutch situations and deliver once in a while...
By the way, did you know any of my buddies from the Antioch area like Tim Vander Meer and Greg Zitkus?
Used to be a fun little town up there.

FedEx227
05-02-2008, 03:02 AM
So, you're insinuating that Walker is not letting these guys know if they're doing something incredibly obvious like lunging, as you say...
Also, that he or someone in the organization is not filling them in on the a scouting report on the pitchers?
What kind of a bizarro world are you living in?
Did Walker do something different in coaching Dye and Konerko last year than he did the previous two years when those guys rocked?
Any talk of firing Walker is a waste of time.
Move onto something important.

We don't know either way. Dye and Konerko, got old... I'll admit that, but looking at the bigger pitcher we continue to get smoked by unknowns... and that's going back 4-5 years. Teams can bring up any AA-AAA guy and pretty much guarantee a 7 IP, 3 H performance... to me that's awful advanced scouting.

BadBobbyJenks
05-02-2008, 06:54 AM
A friend of mine has bought the rights to firegregwalker.com, but does not know what to do with it. He doesnt know the first thing about creating a website, but is fed up with Greg Walker as a lot of people seem to be.

If anybody is upset with Walker and can help him get the site going, shoot me a pm and I will get you in touch with him.

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 08:08 AM
There is no reason at all to believe the offense will improve under Walker. What you see is what you get, and have gotten his entire tenure outside of 2005. They will look like world beaters two or three nights in a row, scoring 10 a game, and then they can't touch 10 runs over the next three games. Lots of people are still upset about the 2003 team. Some people even said they were better than 05. 2003 wasn't a juggernaut. They were an extremely flawed team of guys swinging for the fences. Sure, the pitching could have been mediocre and the bats caught fire for two weeks (like the Angels in 2002), but most likely that team in the playoffs would have been a repeat of 2000. 2005 was different because they were more fundamentally sound. They wouldn't go on absolute tears for a couple games at a time and then look like a AA team for a week. That team winning was more than just the pitching. We wouldn't have won the title in 05 with the 2003 offense.

2006, in particular the second half, was terrible offensively. It carried over into 07, and now into 08. This is Greg Walker's offense. Swing for the fences, pull everything, swing at balls in the dirt, and then take strike three over the heart of the plate. The year have changed, the players have changed, and the results are the same. I don't care if his teams lead the league in scoring, 9 runs followed by 3 and 2 isn't acceptable. Being completely clueless against lefties, career journeymen, minor league call-ups, and anyone who throws under 90 is unacceptable. That is just what you will continue to get.

I think the variable that made us a better offense in 2005/1st half of 2006 was having a speed/SB guy like Pods in the line up. If you look at pre-All Star/post All Star splits in 2006....the biggest change was with Pods out of all the starters. He had a huge drop off in the 2nd half and the offense followed. In 2003, 2004, 2007...we didn't have a guy like him..and we got the feast or famine offense that makes everyone crazy. I don't think GW was a better coach in the 2005-1st Half 2006 timeframe...we had a more balanced approach and it showed due to a different make up in the line up.

ondafarm
05-02-2008, 08:25 AM
I'm all for accountability...but he's accountable both ways...both for the guys doing well, the overall run production of the team (currently among the highest in the league) as well as the guys who are struggling.

I'm willing to give these hitters a few more weeks to get on track before I think firing GW is going to help us win the division this year.

Overall run production is horribly missleading. A team with a lot of slow footed sluggers but decent OBP guys can/ will score a lot of runs. But those runs tend to come in bunches and get shut down by good pitching. During my baseball career I have been on four champion teams, but never on a team that led anything in scoring.

spiffie
05-02-2008, 08:35 AM
I think the variable that made us a better offense in 2005/1st half of 2006 was having a speed/SB guy like Pods in the line up. If you look at pre-All Star/post All Star splits in 2006....the biggest change was with Pods out of all the starters. He had a huge drop off in the 2nd half and the offense followed. In 2003, 2004, 2007...we didn't have a guy like him..and we got the feast or famine offense that makes everyone crazy. I don't think GW was a better coach in the 2005-1st Half 2006 timeframe...we had a more balanced approach and it showed due to a different make up in the line up.
Problem is we didn't have a better offense in 2005. We had a terrible offense in 2005 in comparison to 2004 and 2006. If we had the same pitching in 2004 and 2006 that we had in 2005, we would be talking about the glorious run of 3 straight World Series titles that we all just saw the Sox go on. But when you look at runs allowed over that span, you see how even a much less effective offense can win a ton of games with that pitching:
2004 - 831 runs allowed
2005 - 645 runs allowed
2006 - 794 runs allowed

And really, this feast or famine concept is overblown.

In 2005 we scored:
0 runs - 7 times
1 run - 13 times
2 runs - 29 times
3 runs - 11 times
4 runs - 21 times
5+ runs - 81 times

In 2006 we scored:
0 runs - 6 times
1 run - 11 times
2 runs - 15 times
3 runs - 20 times
4 runs - 25 times
5+ runs - 85 times

Problem is in 2005 when we score 3 or less runs we were 22-38. In 2006 we were 7-45.

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 09:08 AM
Problem is we didn't have a better offense in 2005. We had a terrible offense in 2005 in comparison to 2004 and 2006. If we had the same pitching in 2004 and 2006 that we had in 2005, we would be talking about the glorious run of 3 straight World Series titles that we all just saw the Sox go on. But when you look at runs allowed over that span, you see how even a much less effective offense can win a ton of games with that pitching:
2004 - 831 runs allowed
2005 - 645 runs allowed
2006 - 794 runs allowed

And really, this feast or famine concept is overblown.

In 2005 we scored:
0 runs - 7 times
1 run - 13 times
2 runs - 29 times
3 runs - 11 times
4 runs - 21 times
5+ runs - 81 times

In 2006 we scored:
0 runs - 6 times
1 run - 11 times
2 runs - 15 times
3 runs - 20 times
4 runs - 25 times
5+ runs - 85 times

Problem is in 2005 when we score 3 or less runs we were 22-38. In 2006 we were 7-45.

Outstanding post.

Law11
05-02-2008, 09:49 AM
Batters get into bad habits and GW's job is basically to get them out of them.
I mean what is GW going to really teach Thome, Paulie, Dye, crede etc...

Ive often wondered the need for a hitting coach at this level when so much video software is out there now to help a team with analyzation of swings.

You could need to rename the position video coach.

Frater Perdurabo
05-02-2008, 09:56 AM
Batters get into bad habits and GW's job is basically to get them out of them.

The problem is that Sox hitters keep getting into the same bad habits: swinging at sliders in the dirt, chasing junk, laying off fat 85 mph meatballs over the heart of the plate, swinging long, swinging upward, swinging for the fences. On and on and on it goes. Over and over and over again. Like a broken record, a broken record, a broken record...

The thing is, I do not think Walker - or indeed anyone in this organization's hitting "brain trust" even thinks there is a problem.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

ondafarm
05-02-2008, 10:18 AM
I think there is piddly little advance scouting and series preparation on the White Sox for hitting. As in, when I played AA ball, I would have two meetings before every series. The first was the pitcher's meeting in which we would go over every guy on the roster of the opposing team and use photos of their stance, the report from the advance scouts and their hitting chart. The second meeting was where we did the same for every pitcher we could see. Not just starters, every pitcher. We'd have photos of their delivery, the flight of the ball, radar gun readings, spin rates, pitching charts and tendencies. At our home facilities, we had pitching machines which could be programmed to recreate every pitch from release point to spin to velocity. I never tried to figure how many people were involved in this, but if the Dragons were doing this all the way down to AA, and I do recall a few guys we'd miss, but I know the Dragons major leaguers never did, then why aren't the White Sox. We almost never hit against a guy we didn't have a decent feel for all of his pitches. ((No fair asking why I still hit only .242 career)) Do you think that any of the Sox hitters currently look like they are perfectly comfortable facing Boof Bonser?

Law11
05-02-2008, 10:24 AM
I think there is piddly little advance scouting and series preparation on the White Sox for hitting. As in, when I played AA ball, I would have two meetings before every series. The first was the pitcher's meeting in which we would go over every guy on the roster of the opposing team and use photos of their stance, the report from the advance scouts and their hitting chart. The second meeting was where we did the same for every pitcher we could see. Not just starters, every pitcher. We'd have photos of their delivery, the flight of the ball, radar gun readings, spin rates, pitching charts and tendencies. At our home facilities, we had pitching machines which could be programmed to recreate every pitch from release point to spin to velocity. I never tried to figure how many people were involved in this, but if the Dragons were doing this all the way down to AA, and I do recall a few guys we'd miss, but I know the Dragons major leaguers never did, then why aren't the White Sox. We almost never hit against a guy we didn't have a decent feel for all of his pitches. ((No fair asking why I still hit only .242 career)) Do you think that any of the Sox hitters currently look like they are perfectly comfortable facing Boof Bonser?


Good stuff... Great insight.

AZChiSoxFan
05-02-2008, 10:42 AM
Overall run production is horribly missleading. A team with a lot of slow footed sluggers but decent OBP guys can/ will score a lot of runs. But those runs tend to come in bunches and get shut down by good pitching. During my baseball career I have been on four champion teams, but never on a team that led anything in scoring.

Ondafarm,

Just wanted to let you know that I'm glad you're posting again here. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Onda:

I think you may have missed this but I asked Mark Gonzales about the advance scouting reports the Sox are getting from Bryan Little and company and if that was the core of the issue.

He said no, that Little and his people were doing a good job.

If that's true then the inference is what happens after those reports wind up with Ozzie (or Greg or whomever...)

Just FYI.

Lip

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 01:09 PM
Looking at the lifetime batting averages of our 9 starters...we should hit ~.266 as a team...we're about 22 hits off that average right now (~1 hit/game).

ondafarm
05-02-2008, 01:18 PM
Law, AZ and Lip. Thank you all.

Did want to say that I overlooked something. My post have have sounded quite damming to Bryan Little and the Sox advance scouting team. If so, I apologize, that was not my intent.

Even DJ used to mention that all the hitters on the Padres had team meetings before every series led by Tony Gwynn and others. There are two parts to this. Getting the info is a lot of work and I had heard that Bryan Little and co actually do their job. The second part is having that info and going over it and acting on it. This is a "bash Greg Walker" thread so I will say it concisely. I don't think Greg Walker is doing this part of the job.

I remember when facing Shingo Takatsu, the hardest part was getting our pitching machines to throw the ball that slowly and with the same release point and accuracy. My hitting coach actually took matters into his own hands and started emulating the guy. I would catch him and give feedback (mostly "too fast".) He hated doing it because it took him out of being able to coach the hitter, but the job was too important to let fall by the wayside. I admit, we all cheered the day Shingo switched to relief at the major league level, so we'd never have to see him again. Shingo was also hard to predict as to the pitch he'd throw so we had special signs for me to help call the pitch (slow, super slow, frisbee) which we then converted to the pitching coach signalling me how fast to go out and talk to the pitcher (regualr, kill time, trip-fall-down and really stall the game.)

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:32 PM
We don't know either way. Dye and Konerko, got old... I'll admit that, but looking at the bigger pitcher we continue to get smoked by unknowns... and that's going back 4-5 years. Teams can bring up any AA-AAA guy and pretty much guarantee a 7 IP, 3 H performance... to me that's awful advanced scouting.
One of the most frustrating things for me of them all is the new guys coming in and beating us like every single time...
Lunging and scouting reports are a given. It's up to the player whether they look at them or not.
I've been in the Sox' clubhouse many times and Walker is not just sitting around playing cards, believe me.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:36 PM
A friend of mine has bought the rights to firegregwalker.com, but does not know what to do with it. He doesnt know the first thing about creating a website, but is fed up with Greg Walker as a lot of people seem to be.

If anybody is upset with Walker and can help him get the site going, shoot me a pm and I will get you in touch with him.
I'd LOVE to read about a guy being fired and then that guy go to a fan's place of work (like a negative website owner's) and taunting him until he's fired.
Have you friend call me 602-414-1899 and I'll tell him what to do with his site. He can't be all there if he's going to start a website to fire Walker.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:38 PM
Onda:

I think you may have missed this but I asked Mark Gonzales about the advance scouting reports the Sox are getting from Bryan Little and company and if that was the core of the issue.

He said no, that Little and his people were doing a good job.

If that's true then the inference is what happens after those reports wind up with Ozzie (or Greg or whomever...)

Just FYI.

Lip
It's the hitters that just aren't very good...

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 02:42 PM
I think the variable that made us a better offense in 2005/1st half of 2006 was having a speed/SB guy like Pods in the line up. If you look at pre-All Star/post All Star splits in 2006....the biggest change was with Pods out of all the starters. He had a huge drop off in the 2nd half and the offense followed. In 2003, 2004, 2007...we didn't have a guy like him..and we got the feast or famine offense that makes everyone crazy. I don't think GW was a better coach in the 2005-1st Half 2006 timeframe...we had a more balanced approach and it showed due to a different make up in the line up.
Podsednik had a lot to do with that offense and it seemed to come down overall as he became injured and then finished...
I would have kept him as a back-up outfielder rather than set him free...
They have another guy that can do that at the top of the order and can rattle pitchers and can create better pitches for the 2 and 3 hitters...
His name is Jerry Owens....
However, there isn't a place for him at the moment unless there is some sort of a deal.

Jenks4Prez
05-02-2008, 02:50 PM
Unfortunately This team will NOT compete for the AL Central

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 02:50 PM
Podsednik had a lot to do with that offense and it seemed to come down overall as he became injured and then finished...
I would have kept him as a back-up outfielder rather than set him free...
They have another guy that can do that at the top of the order and can rattle pitchers and can create better pitches for the 2 and 3 hitters...
His name is Jerry Owens....
However, there isn't a place for him at the moment unless there is some sort of a deal.

I'm not sure about keeping Pods...at some point he just became a distraction...2.5 out of his 3 years with the Sox were spent hobbled by injuries. But when you look at when they were really cooking and when they were struggling...he seems to be a big "x" factor.

Owens belongs on this roster now instead of Ramirez...play him a few times/week when you're resting Dye/Konerko/Swisher/Quentin...two benefits...some speed at the top of the order + Swisher moves to his more natural slot in the order (5th/6th)..breaks up the conga line of slow/station to station guys. I wouln't try it more than 2X/week until Owens proves himself.

spiffie
05-02-2008, 02:57 PM
Unfortunately This team will NOT compete for the AL Central
Guess we might as well just start Bears training camp then.

Can we get refunds for any previously purchased Sox games, what with the season being over, or is that just a cost we have to eat as fans?

kobo
05-02-2008, 03:17 PM
They have another guy that can do that at the top of the order and can rattle pitchers and can create better pitches for the 2 and 3 hitters...
His name is Jerry Owens....

:rolling:

KyWhiSoxFan
05-02-2008, 03:18 PM
This team needs some energy at the top of the order. They need to bring up Owens and get him some at bats. Swisher taking a walk does not bring a lot of excitement. (Swisher needs to be hitting 2nd, 5th, or 6th.) A stolen base, going from 1st to third on a single, a hit and run, something is needed. Laying back and waiting for the long ball is not a formula that works consistently over 162 games. They need to manufacture some runs, and get some energy out there.

Send Ramirez down and rotate Swisher through RF, DH, and 1B.

FedEx227
05-02-2008, 03:26 PM
This team needs some energy at the top of the order. They need to bring up Owens and get him some at bats. Swisher taking a walk does not bring a lot of excitement. (Swisher needs to be hitting 2nd, 5th, or 6th.) A stolen base, going from 1st to third on a single, a hit and run, something is needed. Laying back and waiting for the long ball is not a formula that works consistently over 162 games. They need to manufacture some runs, and get some energy out there.

Send Ramirez down and rotate Swisher through RF, DH, and 1B.

:unsure::unsure: :thud: :thud:

That's our problem. It's not the horrendous hitting with runners in scoring position... nope it's ENERGY!!! ENERGY!!

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 03:26 PM
Unfortunately This team will NOT compete for the AL Central
This team WILL compete for the Central because the pitching is there...
But it won't with this lineup.
There are adequate reinforcements.

spiffie
05-02-2008, 03:29 PM
:unsure::unsure: :thud: :thud:

That's our problem. It's not the horrendous hitting with runners in scoring position... nope it's ENERGY!!! ENERGY!!
This team would have 5 more wins already if they would have only Red Bull in the dugout. And if Ozzie had a cattle prod to use when the teams seems listless.

FedEx227
05-02-2008, 03:31 PM
This team would have 5 more wins already if they would have only Red Bull in the dugout. And if Ozzie had a cattle prod to use when the teams seems listless.

5 wins?! They'd have 12 more.

AZChiSoxFan
05-02-2008, 03:45 PM
I'd LOVE to read about a guy being fired and then that guy go to a fan's place of work (like a negative website owner's) and taunting him until he's fired.
Have you friend call me 602-414-1899 and I'll tell him what to do with his site. He can't be all there if he's going to start a website to fire Walker.

GMAB. :rolleyes:

AZChiSoxFan
05-02-2008, 03:47 PM
It's the hitters that just aren't very good...

Then tell me this Mensa, what's the point of even having coaches on the team?

rainbow6
05-02-2008, 07:00 PM
Can the folks that are defending Greg Walker answer one question:

Do we all agree that all coaches (in most cases) will be fired? As the saying goes, managers (and coaches) are "hired to be fired."

Assuming that is true, when do you think he'll get the axe? Should it be the end of another dismal offensive season? Or should the orginazation, at the very least, make a statement that the Chicago White Sox have higher standards than what this team has shown that the past two years?

Will it make a difference?
Who knows - I agree with the sentiment about this being a veteran team, etc.

But it surely can't get any worse...

fquaye149
05-02-2008, 07:29 PM
Then tell me this Mensa, what's the point of even having coaches on the team?

To help the young players perform and help give the veteran hitters something to think about (small mechanical changes or mental techniques) to help them break out of slumps.

The young players seem to be performing--it's the vets that aren't.

It hardly seems like firing Walker and hiring, say, Gary Pettis, would do much to help us hit

fquaye149
05-02-2008, 07:31 PM
Can the folks that are defending Greg Walker answer one question:

Do we all agree that all coaches (in most cases) will be fired? As the saying goes, managers (and coaches) are "hired to be fired."

Assuming that is true, when do you think he'll get the axe? Should it be the end of another dismal offensive season? Or should the orginazation, at the very least, make a statement that the Chicago White Sox have higher standards than what this team has shown that the past two years?

Will it make a difference?
Who knows - I agree with the sentiment about this being a veteran team, etc.

But it surely can't get any worse...

Greg Walker is not a good coach...but, I mean, firing him's simply not going to accomplish much.

Does he deserve to be fired? Probably.

Should that be a priority? Probably not.

I have yet to hear of a hitting coach that's described as making a huge difference (besides former stars who get lots of hype when they're first hired, like Paul Molitor--and what have you heard about him recently?)

sox1970
05-02-2008, 07:34 PM
If Walker wasn't a Reinsdorf Legacy Guy, he would have never made it past 2007.

They at least need to mix up the lineup. I think in a week or so, everyone is going to want Swisher out of the 1-hole.

thomas35forever
05-02-2008, 08:42 PM
Rongey just said basically what I said earlier in this thread. Even if Walker were fired, there's not much you can tell a lot of our hitters anymore. They've been in the majors for over a decade and aren't going to change their hitting approach now.

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 08:53 PM
They better fire Walker before he screws up Carlos Quentin.

cheezheadsoxfan
05-02-2008, 09:13 PM
They better fire Walker before he screws up Carlos Quentin.

Yikes, scary thought.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 09:15 PM
Then tell me this Mensa, what's the point of even having coaches on the team?Your third base coach decides whether or not to wave runners around on hits and also flashed signs to the hitters...
Your pitching coach works with the pitchers and probably spends a ton of time on their mechanics as well as stat charts pertaining to the success of their own pitches in comparison to how other they fare against hitters...
They have a baserunning coach that harps on baserunning which is likely a never-ending process....
The hitting coach analyzes their swings as well as looks at charts of opposing pitchers and goes over them with hitters, which is what Walker does....
I'm sure you have looked over Walker pretty good and analyzed him in the locker room with some of our superior hitters that are currently hitting about .200 that many on here continue to rave about. I'll let you have the final say since you really seem to have a great grasp on what exactly Walker has done in the locker room...
Isn't this the same Greg Walker who was around here in 2005 and 06?
And YOU call ME mensa?
LOL

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 09:16 PM
Can the folks that are defending Greg Walker answer one question:

Do we all agree that all coaches (in most cases) will be fired? As the saying goes, managers (and coaches) are "hired to be fired."

Assuming that is true, when do you think he'll get the axe? Should it be the end of another dismal offensive season? Or should the orginazation, at the very least, make a statement that the Chicago White Sox have higher standards than what this team has shown that the past two years?

Will it make a difference?
Who knows - I agree with the sentiment about this being a veteran team, etc.

But it surely can't get any worse...
I'd fire the players.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 09:18 PM
If Walker wasn't a Reinsdorf Legacy Guy, he would have never made it past 2007.

They at least need to mix up the lineup. I think in a week or so, everyone is going to want Swisher out of the 1-hole.
Walker didn't make the deals that turned this club from an exciting offensive unit with speed at the top of the order into an almost-unwatchable team that just goes up and hacks...
This type of team was put together by Kenny Williams, who cut Podsednik and helped decide that Owens needed more time in the minors.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Rongey just said basically what I said earlier in this thread. Even if Walker were fired, there's not much you can tell a lot of our hitters anymore. They've been in the majors for over a decade and aren't going to change their hitting approach now.Rongey said EXACTLY what I've been saying for weeks now.

NADA SURF
05-02-2008, 09:20 PM
They better fire Walker before he screws up Carlos Quentin.There is NO HOPE HERE!
So, when Quentin starts tumbling like the stock market, it automatically is going to be Walker's fault?
Has nothing to do with the fact that Quentin never could hit major league pitching before?

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 09:33 PM
There is NO HOPE HERE!
So, when Quentin starts tumbling like the stock market, it automatically is going to be Walker's fault?
Has nothing to do with the fact that Quentin never could hit major league pitching before?
I remember when Juan Uribe first came to the Sox he was a very streaky hitter. He would go on a tear for a few weeks hitting the cover off the ball then would slump for a few weeks not able to buy a hit.

The Sox brought in Walt Hriniak to work with Uribe in the second half of 2005. Hriniak had Uribe employ that "leg kick" timing device and Uribe became a much better hitter with more consistancy.

So 2006 rolls around and Walker starts working with Uribe again and has him abandon the leg kick because Walker said he believed Uribe didn't need it. Uribe rapidly becomes one of the worst hitters in MLB. Coincidence?

The Sox have some veteran hitters on the team that were established quality hitters long before they began working with Walker (Konerko, Dye, AJ, Thome). After a few years under Walker, they all seem to be performing under their normal expectations. AJ may have hit for more power the past few years than before, but his BA has gone down. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

Much better hitting coaches than Walker have been fired throughout the history of baseball when their hitters performed less poorly than the Sox offense of the past couple of years. Why should Walker not be held accountable?

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 10:08 PM
The Sox brought in Walt Hriniak to work with Uribe in the second half of 2005. Hriniak had Uribe employ that "leg kick" timing device and Uribe became a much better hitter with more consistancy.

So 2006 rolls around and Walker starts working with Uribe again and has him abandon the leg kick because Walker said he believed Uribe didn't need it. Uribe rapidly becomes one of the worst hitters in MLB. Coincidence?



Uribe hit .257 post all star in 2005...pretty much right around his career average.

Walker deserves to be fired. But I doubt his replacement will generate different results.

We do need to mix in a speed element into our offense...we NEVER pressure the other team...we hardly ever score from 1st on a double, or second on a single...we've learned this every year other than 2005...you have to a speed/SB guy as a catalyst for the overall offense.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2008, 10:23 PM
Tom:

You need more then one. Think how good, how balanced the 83 team was for example after they got Cruz for the bottom of the order.

This team needs three guys who can each steal 20 bases as well as bunt, advance runners and do the small things hitting in either the #1, 2, 8 or 9 spots.

Lip

DickAllen72
05-02-2008, 10:27 PM
Uribe hit .257 post all star in 2005...pretty much right around his career average.

I'd gladly take .257 from Uribe along with his stellar defense and his normal power production. Trouble is, he seems to have regressed BA-wise the past couple of seasons, since he abandoned the leg kick.

itsnotrequired
05-02-2008, 11:51 PM
This team needs three guys who can each steal 20 bases as well as bunt, advance runners and do the small things hitting in either the #1, 2, 8 or 9 spots.

Lip

The Sox haven't had three 20+ SB guys in ten years.

TomBradley72
05-02-2008, 11:53 PM
Tom:

You need more then one. Think how good, how balanced the 83 team was for example after they got Cruz for the bottom of the order.

This team needs three guys who can each steal 20 bases as well as bunt, advance runners and do the small things hitting in either the #1, 2, 8 or 9 spots.

Lip

I agree Lip...but if we have a speed/SB guy leading off (and yes, I'm thinking of Owens against RHs), we can also move Swisher to 5th or 6th...which give us a little more speed in the middle of the order...when Richar is healthy mix him in at 2nd...Dye/Konerko/Uribe will need to give up some playing time...but this offense needs an infusion of something.

Nellie_Fox
05-02-2008, 11:54 PM
Do we all agree that all coaches (in most cases) will be fired?That sentence is positively Yogi-esque! :thumbsup:

BadBobbyJenks
05-03-2008, 01:32 AM
Uribe hit .257 post all star in 2005...pretty much right around his career average.



Back to back 235 seasons. This is who Uribe is now.

kitekrazy
05-03-2008, 04:54 AM
The Sox haven't had three 20+ SB guys in ten years.

Station to station baseball runs deep in this organization.

There are also players who have a major deficits in many skills while having one excellent skill, like Uribe.

Unfortunately modern baseball only focuses on homeruns. The Sox have guys that can do this. Other than that they don't have much to offer in being a complete ball player.

Maybe, just maybe......they have players who stopped taking HGH.

Grzegorz
05-03-2008, 05:16 AM
Walker deserves to be fired. But I doubt his replacement will generate different results.

If you believe that Greg Walker's replacement would have similar results with the same personnel why fire Greg Walker?

If personnel is the problem then firing the hitting coach would be nothing more than a symbolic move.

TornLabrum
05-03-2008, 07:31 AM
Then tell me this Mensa, what's the point of even having coaches on the team?

Consider this a warning. Watch the personal insults or you'll find yourself on an unexpected hiatus.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 09:40 AM
Tom:

You need more then one. Think how good, how balanced the 83 team was for example after they got Cruz for the bottom of the order.

This team needs three guys who can each steal 20 bases as well as bunt, advance runners and do the small things hitting in either the #1, 2, 8 or 9 spots.

Lip
Amen. It would be the equivalent of a basketball team having all low post scorers and no perimeter game. It's fundamentally flawed. You can actually devise a gameplan to consistently beat that approach.

When you can manufacture runs, you can always count on some offense. Why do you think the Sox had that record of obtaining leads in ballgames?
They put pressure on the opposing pitcher early, and gave leads to the starters, who in turn pitched great. When a pitcher really only has to worry about getting a bunch of pull-happy sluggers out, he can really cruise with 5-10 pitch innings. It's not rocket science.

Base stealers make you press on the mound. They distract you. The threat of a hit and run distracts the whole defense, because there is an extra feature to worry about.

Jurr
05-03-2008, 09:41 AM
If you believe that Greg Walker's replacement would have similar results with the same personnel why fire Greg Walker?

If personnel is the problem then firing the hitting coach would be nothing more than a symbolic move.
Exactly. It's like the time they fired Von Joshua for Gary Ward. You saw a little improvement on offense, until the lineup regressed back to its "all or nothing" ways.

goon
05-03-2008, 11:06 AM
I have yet to hear of a hitting coach that's described as making a huge difference (besides former stars who get lots of hype when they're first hired, like Paul Molitor--and what have you heard about him recently?)

In 2005 the Indians had a horrendous offensive start to the season, I believe for the first month or so, they fired Eddie Murray as hitting coach and the very next day the team absolutely starting crushing the ball. Granted, that was and is a youthful roster, however, maybe all of our position players just need to work with a hitting coach who brings a different approach, philosophy, whatever you want to call it, to help our hitters get going.

Something is obviously wrong, this lineup has pretty much no holes, with the exception to Uribe, yet they can look downright awful at the plate. I'm not suggesting Walker be fired right this moment, but if the Sox don't pick it up toward the end of May and we are still competing for first, they probably should. It would be foolish to waste this team's talent, pitching (thus far) just hoping things will eventually go right.

soxinem1
05-03-2008, 11:11 AM
And a majority of the guys struggling, including Thome and Konerko, are professional hitters who have been in the league for years.

Heaven forbid we place the blame on the players.

I agree 1000%. These guys know what they have to do.

While Swisher is a nice addition to the line up, I think it's time to shuffle things and maybe work Owens into CF at lead-off. Getting guys on base and not being able to put any real pressure on the pitcher is going to grow old fast.

ondafarm
05-03-2008, 11:18 AM
20 stolen bases a year is not really that many. Cabrera is on a pace for that right now. Swish is definitely capable of it. BA has the needed speed, but not the technique. Heck even Dye can steal a few bases when healthy. The only real station to station guys are: Thome, PK, AJ and Crede. Quentin is probably in the same category as BA. I will say though, stealing bases is as much an exercise in the fundamentals of baseball as just speed.

goon
05-03-2008, 11:20 AM
I agree 1000%. These guys know what they have to do.

Who says veterans don't need to make adjustments? I don't think you hit a certain point in your career and you just stop developing your strategy and mechanics as a hitter, I bet you are always tinkering with this or that. Maybe some one can watch our hitters and see something that Greg Walker is missing... I don't think that is so insane.

Also, it's a cliche and I'm sure it's been said a dozen times in this thread already, you can't fire the players. Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Konerko, now Dye and Uribe (what new?) are all struggling at the plate, it's not like you can move all of these guys and really, the Sox shouldn't have to. They are talented players who SHOULD be hitting.

On another note, blame does go to the players. I don't watch Paul Konerko ground out to the SS for the third time in a row and yell, "**** you, Greg Walker!" They need to figure some things out for themselves... but maybe, just maybe, bringing someone in with a fresh perspective will help jump start these guys. If there is someone out there, why not give it a try? These team is in it to win NOW.

jabrch
05-03-2008, 11:25 AM
1-5 are hitting .225 or less. .360 OBPs mean crap if you can't hit. This team needs to get back to what they do best - get in the box, find a good pitch and drive it instead of waiting out a perfect pitch. It takes a lot of walks to score a single run if you aren't hitting and right now the guys are the top are taking more pitches than they should.

The change in philosophy this season has been a step backwards in terms of our offense. We are now seeming to rely on walks and HRs instead of on getting hits to move the line. The offense is uglier this year than it was last year in my mind. You can't rely on walks and HRs alone.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 11:31 AM
From Joe Cowley:

"All the fire Greg Walker talk can stop, because Ozzie Guillen just came out and said it isn't going to happen. Put the torches away."

Bottom line--these are veteran hitters. If they don't get it done it's their fault, and Kenny Williams' fault for not recognizing that some of them are on the downside of their careers.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2008, 11:46 AM
Itsnot:

Thanks for making my point of the stolen bases (ten years for the Sox). That's about how long this "home run or nothing" philosophy has been going on (really since about 99-00) and we've seen the results.

Lip

LoveYourSuit
05-03-2008, 12:00 PM
From Joe Cowley:

"All the fire Greg Walker talk can stop, because Ozzie Guillen just came out and said it isn't going to happen. Put the torches away."

Bottom line--these are veteran hitters. If they don't get it done it's their fault, and Kenny Williams' fault for not recognizing that some of them are on the downside of their careers.


Took the words out of my mouth.

If the Sox refuse to put the blame on Walker, then Kenny needs to take the blame because he is who assembled this mess of "veteran" hitters. This is the first I hear of veteran hitters having nothing to do with a hitting instructor. Meanwhile, the best hitter this franchise has ever seen and one of the best RH hitters ML baseball has ever seen alway made a big deal about his hitting instructor (Walt).

I highly doubt Kenny will take the axe before Walker.

fquaye149
05-03-2008, 12:00 PM
In 2005 the Indians had a horrendous offensive start to the season, I believe for the first month or so, they fired Eddie Murray as hitting coach and the very next day the team absolutely starting crushing the ball. Granted, that was and is a youthful roster, however, maybe all of our position players just need to work with a hitting coach who brings a different approach, philosophy, whatever you want to call it, to help our hitters get going.

Something is obviously wrong, this lineup has pretty much no holes, with the exception to Uribe, yet they can look downright awful at the plate. I'm not suggesting Walker be fired right this moment, but if the Sox don't pick it up toward the end of May and we are still competing for first, they probably should. It would be foolish to waste this team's talent, pitching (thus far) just hoping things will eventually go right.

I don't deny that Walker hasn't done anything to warrant keeping his job...I'm just trying to make a case that Hitting Coach is a very overrated position

jabrch
05-03-2008, 12:03 PM
this "home run or nothing" philosophy has been going on (really since about 99-00) and we've seen the results.

It's worse this year than ever before because at least in past years we'd see a few guys hitting. We weren't hitting big, but we had a few guys hitting. This season, past Crede and CQ, nobody is hitting. You can not survive with just walks and HRs. It doesn't happen.

.225/.360 is a sign of a major problem that pitchers will continue to exploit. Pitchers control when you can or can not walk. If you can't hit, you can't control your ABs. Only hitting .225 or so, regardless of your OBP, OPS, DIPS, TRIPS, QIPS, SLPS or HIPS is just not good for guys hitting in the top half of a lineup. I'll accept it from my 8/9 hitters, maybe, because they are ideally your weakest hitterrs. But when your entire top half of the order is doing that, you are going to be in a lot of trouble.

fquaye149
05-03-2008, 12:05 PM
It's worse this year than ever before because at least in past years we'd see a few guys hitting. We weren't hitting big, but we had a few guys hitting. This season, past Crede and CQ, nobody is hitting. You can not survive with just walks and HRs. It doesn't happen.

.225/.360 is a sign of a major problem that pitchers will continue to exploit. Pitchers control when you can or can not walk. If you can't hit, you can't control your ABs. Only hitting .225 or so, regardless of your OBP, OPS, DIPS, TRIPS, QIPS, SLPS or HIPS is just not good for guys hitting in the top half of a lineup. I'll accept it from my 8/9 hitters, maybe, because they are ideally your weakest hitterrs. But when your entire top half of the order is doing that, you are going to be in a lot of trouble.

You know, unless you're one of Earl Weaver or Terry Francona's teams.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 01:41 PM
They just had a leadoff double and couldn't score. I've just converted to the Fire Greg Walker camp. And, while we're on the subject, as soon as they fall out of first place...

:fireozzie

sox1970
05-03-2008, 01:43 PM
They just had a leadoff double and couldn't score. I've just converted to the Fire Greg Walker camp. And, while we're on the subject, as soon as they fall out of first place...

:fireozzie

Ozuna sacrificed to set up a sac fly. Swisher killed one right to Overbay. Yeah, that's Walker's fault.

oeo
05-03-2008, 01:47 PM
Took the words out of my mouth.

If the Sox refuse to put the blame on Walker, then Kenny needs to take the blame because he is who assembled this mess of "veteran" hitters. This is the first I hear of veteran hitters having nothing to do with a hitting instructor. Meanwhile, the best hitter this franchise has ever seen and one of the best RH hitters ML baseball has ever seen alway made a big deal about his hitting instructor (Walt).

I highly doubt Kenny will take the axe before Walker.

He won't and shouldn't. It's Kenny's fault, how? He assembled the team, yes, but they're proven veteran hitters that are not hitting. It's not like he went ahead and rebuilt the team, and brought in a bunch of kids that can't hit. It's the players, sure, but somebody needs to take the fall. You can't trade away an entire offense, you fire the coach.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2008, 01:59 PM
Ozuna sacrificed to set up a sac fly. Swisher killed one right to Overbay. Yeah, that's Walker's fault.

The manager is an imbecile. You don't sacrifice with none out when you're down two runs on the road! Fire his ass.

Now, the imbecile probably felt he had to play for one run because the team can't buy a hit. And they haven't hit for two years. So fire Walker too. Clean house. The coaching staff is not helping this team one bit.

sox1970
05-03-2008, 02:06 PM
The manager is an imbecile. You don't sacrifice with none out when you're down two runs on the road! Fire his ass.

Now, the imbecile probably felt he had to play for one run because the team can't buy a hit. And they haven't hit for two years. So fire Walker too. Clean house. The coaching staff is not helping this team one bit.

I agree with you about not sacrificing there. Try to get a hit to right, and rally.

Ozzie is a ****ing moron, but Walker's hands are tied with a veteran team.

itsnotrequired
05-03-2008, 02:27 PM
Itsnot:

Thanks for making my point of the stolen bases (ten years for the Sox). That's about how long this "home run or nothing" philosophy has been going on (really since about 99-00) and we've seen the results.

Lip

That's why I'm cracking up at those that are bashing Thome right now. Thome is essentially an all-or-nothing hitter. He doesn't bunt, he doesn't steal bases, he doesn't pinch hit and hasn't done any of these things for his entire career.

Now, bringing in Thome is a sign of the ORGANIZATIONAL philosophy of all-or-nothing but it isn't like Thome learned that here.

regionsox73
05-04-2008, 02:34 PM
.234 Average going into today. Last in AL, 2nd to last in all of MLB. 9 points behind Baltimore, the second to last in the AL. 12 hits in 3 games.

There has to be something you can do to make even a minor improvement. How come Swisher and Cabrera can't hit now that they are in a Sox uniform? The "slow start" excuse can't be used by the whole lineup for more than 3 weeks.

I would also get into how we are last in the AL in stolen bases, but that is a subject for another day.

soxfanatlanta
05-04-2008, 02:40 PM
Lots of embarrassing pictures.

turners56
05-04-2008, 02:40 PM
Because he and Ozzie are butt buddies. Ozzie loves Coop and Walker way too much to see them go.

QCIASOXFAN
05-04-2008, 02:42 PM
I agree he shuold go but don't think it would do any good.

soxfanatlanta
05-04-2008, 02:42 PM
:o:

JB98
05-04-2008, 02:46 PM
This is a fresh and interesting topic.

champagne030
05-04-2008, 02:47 PM
.234 Average going into today. Last in AL, 2nd to last in all of MLB. 9 points behind Baltimore, the second to last in the AL. 12 hits in 3 games.

There has to be something you can do to make even a minor improvement. How come Swisher and Cabrera can't hit now that they are in a Sox uniform? The "slow start" excuse can't be used by the whole lineup for more than 3 weeks.

I would also get into how we are last in the AL in stolen bases, but that is a subject for another day.

He's hit the money card on the river too many times.........

regionsox73
05-04-2008, 02:48 PM
I agree he shuold go but don't think it would do any good.

Probably not. My assumption is that if 2008 is a repeat of 2007, they will ALL be gone. Harold will keep a job in the front office as a good will ambassador. Ozzie will go on and manage again. Kenny too- I know he tried, but once he put all his eggs in the Torii Hunter basket, he was really hosed. Kenny has done a pretty good job with trades, but has not seemingly done as well evaluating and signing free agents. Can't really blame injuries either. By the end of the month, assuming we are 6+ out and can't re-sign Crede hopefully we can get something for him. Lincecum would have been nice in retrospect.

TitoMB345
05-04-2008, 03:22 PM
Come on, we've faced some awesome pitchers these last few games. They are just filthy, nasty pitchers! /hawk

Really though, this guy shouldn't have a good in the city of Chicago anymore.

spiffie
05-04-2008, 03:30 PM
Lots of embarrassing pictures.


He has pictures of Juan Uribe's pictures of Ozzie.

Jenks4Prez
05-04-2008, 03:33 PM
He has pictures of Juan Uribe's pictures of Ozzie.

HA!!!!:D:

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2008, 03:48 PM
I think it's time to resurrect the name CORPSEBALL to describe this offense.

Railsplitter
05-04-2008, 06:51 PM
Because he and Ozzie are butt buddies. Ozzie loves Coop and Walker way too much to see them go.
I agree to the second sentence of that statement.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-04-2008, 07:25 PM
When your hitting is this bad, and it's been terrible for more than a year, something has to change: Either the players, the hitting coach, or the manager. Not doing anything is not an answer.

ondafarm
05-04-2008, 09:39 PM
Oh grate, another fresh topic.

ondafarm
05-04-2008, 09:44 PM
I don't think Walker is going anywhere until Ozzie gets threatened with his job. That being said, how many losses before JR threatens Ozzie? My guess is about 100.

AZChiSoxFan
05-04-2008, 09:45 PM
Ozzie loves Coop and Walker way too much to see them go.

Don't leave out Uribe in this category of people.

mwc44
05-04-2008, 09:54 PM
Because he and Ozzie are butt buddies. Ozzie loves Coop and Walker way too much to see them go.

:shocked: You REALLY didn't say that...

:tsk: You should know better... SHAME SHAME...

:D: Nice knowin' 'ya!

Hosey22
05-05-2008, 09:06 PM
Could somebody please provide a sound set of reasons why we should not be firing Greg Walker. I've heard all the excuses that have been spewed by the coaching staff, by the players, and by fans and I have not heard one reason that truly makes sense to me. This team has had a terrible approach at the plate lately and I'm not seeing any attempt to rectify it. I've already heard things like "it's the players that have to hit" or "Guys like Paulie and Thome don't need hitting coaches they are veterans" but I'm tired of the excuses. Sometimes you just need a fresh perspective. Not all coaches are fired because they are terrible, or because of their ability but because a new outlook is needed. If the players don't need a hitting coach then why have him in the first place.

Give me a reason to keep him that makes sense and I will accept it. Something new is needed because I'm tired of watching the same garbage develop that we dealt with last year. If I remember right I heard the same excuse last year of " Well they're not going to hit like this all season" or "nobody was complaining when we were winning".......of course not. I haven't liked Walker as a coach from day one but I put up with him because we always seemed to get by minus 07, but this has just gotten ridiculus. I realize I'm ranting after a terrible loss so I'm a little heated but this game tonight just really puts our poor offense and the in-ability to adapt as a lineup at the forefront, and somebody new is needed to get another approach.

Daver
05-05-2008, 09:07 PM
He wakes up Harold Baines every inning so he can trot out to first.

jdm2662
05-05-2008, 10:21 PM
He wakes up Harold Baines every inning so he can trot out to first.

That's a very important and useful task. :redneck

MetroPD
05-05-2008, 10:27 PM
But Juan Uribe is hitting terrifically!

Martinigirl
05-05-2008, 10:48 PM
I wish I could say that I thought keeping Walk is a good idea, but I just can't. We didn't hit last year, we are not hitting this year. You can't fire a whole team, so the hitting coach seems like the obvious person to go.

And I have heard Ozzie's arguement that Paulie, Thome, JD et al know how to hit, they are professionals. But maybe they just need a new voice, a few new ideas to give them a jolt in the right direction, because it is quite clear that what this team is currently doing is not working.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2008, 11:39 PM
Could somebody please provide a sound set of reasons why we should not be firing Greg Walker.Because we don't have the authority?

jabrch
05-06-2008, 12:06 AM
That's why I'm cracking up at those that are bashing Thome right now. Thome is essentially an all-or-nothing hitter. He doesn't bunt, he doesn't steal bases, he doesn't pinch hit and hasn't done any of these things for his entire career.

Now, bringing in Thome is a sign of the ORGANIZATIONAL philosophy of all-or-nothing but it isn't like Thome learned that here.

This year's Thome, like this year's Dye, Swish and PK, are different than what Jim has been his whole career. Thome is a career .280 hitter. That is not "all or nothing". He hit .275 last year and .288 the season before. The problem is that now he is not doing anything but walking or hitting a HR. If you take out his 6 HRs, he's got 16 hits in 97 ABs. All of these guys are taking a ton of pitches, getting behind in counts, and not able to hit like that. We need the top 6 to start hitting again in order to succeed.

You can not survive if all you do is walk or slug.

itsnotrequired
05-06-2008, 06:02 AM
This year's Thome, like this year's Dye, Swish and PK, are different than what Jim has been his whole career. Thome is a career .280 hitter. That is not "all or nothing". He hit .275 last year and .288 the season before. The problem is that now he is not doing anything but walking or hitting a HR. If you take out his 6 HRs, he's got 16 hits in 97 ABs. All of these guys are taking a ton of pitches, getting behind in counts, and not able to hit like that. We need the top 6 to start hitting again in order to succeed.

You can not survive if all you do is walk or slug.

I feel Thome's bat will come around. He is in a major slump right now. Could he have simply totally lost it and be washed up? I suppose but I don't think anyone really believes that. Are his recent struggles due to Walker? Perhaps but again, placing some kind of massive blame on Walker because of Thome's struggles seems a little extreme.

BadBobbyJenks
05-06-2008, 02:10 PM
How is there not a Fire Greg Walker tag?